EPTTo begin, starcraft and other computer based games I think we can all agree do not have any built in disadvantages facing girls in the same way something like a bodybuilding tournament or an american football league would. In other words at least in my opinion there's no inherent advantage to being naturally stronger or anything like that. In my eyes it's similar to something like billiards or chess, the focus of the game has nothing to do with strength, it's about correct decision making and finesse.
Over the years there have been several successful pro gamers in BW most notably tossgirl. However once female only leagues were abolished in 2005, tossgirl generally underachieved. (Of course I don't mean underachieved compared to average players clearly, but underachieved compared to a lot of the established pros). In an interview tossgirl said
"If I were to advise someone that wants to be a female progamer, I'll just tell her to do her best. It's simple yet true. It's like that for any job, but as a progamer you can't survive if you don't do your best. More so for a female progamer. Many give up rather than put effort when they feel the gap from the male progamers. It's sad. As soon as possible, I wanna show that the gap can be overcome by effort. " (Taken from [Interview] TossGirl, 10/21/09 thread)
My question is, why is this the case? Why does this gap she mentions exist? Do you guys think that it is largely based on just a lack of player pool? A lack of interest in gaming from girls in general? Or something else?
A study performed in 2009 by the Entertainment Software Association found that about 40% of gamers are female, including 43-45% of online gamers. This of course doesn't take in to account the "competetiveness" of the games and unfortunately the study didn't contain any information on the genres of games the respondents played. But I still think it's worth pointing out that there really are a lot of female gamers out there. And probably a lot playing sc2.
I'd love sc2 to have top female pros, hopefully it'll happen over the lifetime of the game!
Edit: This thread was never intended to offend any of the ladies reading it! This is just a topic that I find interesting for whatever reason. As I said, greater variety in the kinds of people playing games and especially starcraft is a good thing in my eyes. If you don't think it's an interesting topic too, it's probably not the thread for you!
I'd also like to draw attention to a great post by Peanutsc (I hope you don't mind! PM me if you do) a lot of people seem to have overlooked in the middle of the comments.
+ Show Spoiler +
On November 20 2010 04:21 Peanutsc wrote:
Here are my thoughts, as a gamer, female, member of the StarCraft community, gaming industry professional, and as someone who has studied cognitive neuroscience and evolution of human behavior in college:
Observation:
Generally speaking, I think men and women have different goals when they play games - they are satisfied by different outcomes, respectively. Men are focused on winning, while women are focused on increasing general happiness and enriching social bonds. Both tendencies obviously have great value in the maintenance of modern human civilization.
Causes:
Biology and environment/society interact to make men feel more personally validated by some objective or subjective measure of dominance ("I scored x points" or "I'm better than you in x") than by social approval. If a typical guy had a choice between winning a basketball match against his sibling/friend/co-worker and losing on purpose so that the other party wouldn't lose face and/or get his/her feelings hurt, I think most Western men would take the former.
On the other hand, biology and environment/society interact to make women feel more personally validated by behaving in ways that support social stability and overall well being than by achieving dominance. Given the same hypothetical situation, your average woman would probably opt for losing on purpose or would say "it would depend on who I was playing against." Women are generally taught (and are generally biologically predisposed) to consider their role in the context of a group (couple, family, clique, etc.) and as dependent on or interdependent with the social whims of others. Women are - by and large - not islands. Women judge themselves by how they are perceived by others - it's a relational standard for self-approval or disapproval.
Effects:
As a result, there is a huge disparity in female player preference/participation between games where you are rewarded for thinking contextually and enriching the relationships between different parties (The Sims) and games where you are, in essence, rewarded for making someone else feel bad (PvP-heavy games).
Women who truly enjoy PvP-heavy games like StarCraft (multiplayer) are in the minority. It means we actually enjoy actions which have the side effect of making other people feel bad about themselves (via losing) and therefore decreasing greater social happiness, which is a big no-no. I believe that this tendency is correlated to other behavioral leanings, as well: refusing to agree just for the sake of agreeing, for example, or feeling bad when you just sit there and nod instead of saying what you really think. Part of the reason I wrote up my socially awkward experience was to gather more data about this hypothesis from other females who frequent this site (and presumably have an interest in playing StarCraft), and so far I think I'm on the right track.
My prediction is that other women will never participate in the StarCraft scene in anything like the way they participate in WoW, Farmville, etc. unless they can see competitive StarCraft as a way to create and enrich social bonds and increase general happiness. This is why I support the SC2 Female Cups and why I don't think they should ever have a cash prize - it should appeal to women who want to bridge the gap between losing for the sake of saving someone else's face and cutting someone else down in the quest for personal dominance. In the Female Cup, you can win against someone else but still be friends with them (or even make a new friend)! Completely the best of both worlds.
Recommendation:
If there are people who sincerely want to see more women in StarCraft (including pro gamers), there are a few things you can keep in mind. Not all of them are feasible - I certainly can't see TL turning into a community where people prioritize social harmony over the pursuit of personal dominance, nor would I want it to be that way. My more practical (and somewhat self-interested) recommendation would be this: value and respect the females that are already here for their contributions to the community. Whether that contribution is amazing art, or high level zerg play, or blog posts, or running an entire league, or just being interesting people to talk to - if women sense that this is a community where it is possible to be openly female and be appreciated as a human being and for what they can contribute, they will come.
I would not be here if I didn't know about lilsusie and mnm. Just food for thought.
Here are my thoughts, as a gamer, female, member of the StarCraft community, gaming industry professional, and as someone who has studied cognitive neuroscience and evolution of human behavior in college:
Observation:
Generally speaking, I think men and women have different goals when they play games - they are satisfied by different outcomes, respectively. Men are focused on winning, while women are focused on increasing general happiness and enriching social bonds. Both tendencies obviously have great value in the maintenance of modern human civilization.
Causes:
Biology and environment/society interact to make men feel more personally validated by some objective or subjective measure of dominance ("I scored x points" or "I'm better than you in x") than by social approval. If a typical guy had a choice between winning a basketball match against his sibling/friend/co-worker and losing on purpose so that the other party wouldn't lose face and/or get his/her feelings hurt, I think most Western men would take the former.
On the other hand, biology and environment/society interact to make women feel more personally validated by behaving in ways that support social stability and overall well being than by achieving dominance. Given the same hypothetical situation, your average woman would probably opt for losing on purpose or would say "it would depend on who I was playing against." Women are generally taught (and are generally biologically predisposed) to consider their role in the context of a group (couple, family, clique, etc.) and as dependent on or interdependent with the social whims of others. Women are - by and large - not islands. Women judge themselves by how they are perceived by others - it's a relational standard for self-approval or disapproval.
Effects:
As a result, there is a huge disparity in female player preference/participation between games where you are rewarded for thinking contextually and enriching the relationships between different parties (The Sims) and games where you are, in essence, rewarded for making someone else feel bad (PvP-heavy games).
Women who truly enjoy PvP-heavy games like StarCraft (multiplayer) are in the minority. It means we actually enjoy actions which have the side effect of making other people feel bad about themselves (via losing) and therefore decreasing greater social happiness, which is a big no-no. I believe that this tendency is correlated to other behavioral leanings, as well: refusing to agree just for the sake of agreeing, for example, or feeling bad when you just sit there and nod instead of saying what you really think. Part of the reason I wrote up my socially awkward experience was to gather more data about this hypothesis from other females who frequent this site (and presumably have an interest in playing StarCraft), and so far I think I'm on the right track.
My prediction is that other women will never participate in the StarCraft scene in anything like the way they participate in WoW, Farmville, etc. unless they can see competitive StarCraft as a way to create and enrich social bonds and increase general happiness. This is why I support the SC2 Female Cups and why I don't think they should ever have a cash prize - it should appeal to women who want to bridge the gap between losing for the sake of saving someone else's face and cutting someone else down in the quest for personal dominance. In the Female Cup, you can win against someone else but still be friends with them (or even make a new friend)! Completely the best of both worlds.
Recommendation:
If there are people who sincerely want to see more women in StarCraft (including pro gamers), there are a few things you can keep in mind. Not all of them are feasible - I certainly can't see TL turning into a community where people prioritize social harmony over the pursuit of personal dominance, nor would I want it to be that way. My more practical (and somewhat self-interested) recommendation would be this: value and respect the females that are already here for their contributions to the community. Whether that contribution is amazing art, or high level zerg play, or blog posts, or running an entire league, or just being interesting people to talk to - if women sense that this is a community where it is possible to be openly female and be appreciated as a human being and for what they can contribute, they will come.
I would not be here if I didn't know about lilsusie and mnm. Just food for thought.
.
