|
On November 20 2010 01:32 fush wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 01:31 Energin wrote:
Honestly guys its because women give up too easily. SC2 is a difficult and competitive game without a social aspect. My wife is a gamer girl straight up. She's logged more hours on world of warcraft than I have, played the sims and sid meier's alpha centauri but SC2 owned her. It's not that she couldn't grasp how to play or anything. It's that she lost interest almost immediately because of how difficult it was, despite grasping the fundamentals fairly quickly. Sweeping generalization on women based on your wife. Nice. Too bad about your wife though, perhaps a little encouragement would have helped?
The encouragement was there, but all she ever wanted to do was 2v2 against the computer. I'd quit playing wow due to it being boring and after a couple of months of sc2 she was asking me to come back to wow so that we could be back to playing the same game.
|
I don't think gaming being a guy thing is so much of a factor - it seems these days that girls doing things that were traditionally seen as "guy things" (construction work, the army, whatever) is seen as progressive and not generally looked down on.
On the other hand, gaming being looked down on in general and seen as a "loser" thing to do sounds like a very valid reason. I guess typically girls tend to care more about how their hobbies are seen by others than guys do.
|
There is a really issue for any girl trying to make into the top teir of sc2...
it's that the frist thing 97% of us want from her is a pic... not a replay, not a how did you get into sc2... in part becuase sc2 is a such a boys club + the good 'ol anomity of the internet you see peope get stupid around girls on the internet.
the fact that their is even a discussion around if girls can play sc2 as well... ya it's part of hte issue. Many studies have shown that girls have more aptidute for math and logic than boys, seriously look it up. But then start to seriously underperform in high school levels. Likely when the weight of social standards kick in, but of course it's almost impossible to prove that point scientificly.
Oh and people... really? women are not competitive by nature? are you insane? That's not it at all... in fact, have you ever seen to woman fight over anything? Actually you prob don't see becuase just like it's not 'acceptable' for a woman to be sexually aggressive, it's not acceptabe for a woman to be openly competative... you don't see woman go "BOOOOOOOOOOMSHAKALA I JUST RAPED YOU BIaaaaaaaTCH" because if they did... how do you think everyone else would look at her? For a guy's normal to win and hoot and holla. but don't fool yourself into thinking they don't care.
Think about it, when was the last time you saw a movie where the woman was super competitive, and not evil? ya ya I'm sure you can name one or two but those are the exceptions
Just like I don't care if a sc2 pro is a fat, I'm going to follow him for his play and personality...
when woman gamers can get close to the same treatment, you might see a few more. But until then many are giong to start to play, see the community and say fuck it. it's not worth it. Honestly. this thread would be enough to scare most of you off, if it was talking about you.
Most people are not pioneers, and mad props to those who are.
|
Just imagine how much publicity a female progamer would receive if she could actually compete with males and even win tournaments... a sponsors dream.
|
On November 20 2010 01:41 BurningSera wrote:
lets be fully honest to ourselves, progamer/gaming as a career will never (not in the future i can see anyway) be widely accepted by the real (human) society on earth. pro-scene in korea was a miracle, fact. lets just keep it simple to think that we are lucky enough to have the existence of the pro scene.
so yeh, if esport can be as popular as 'real sport' (eg Tennis etc), we will defo see some russian girls' pretty faces show up for the games :p
I have faith in russian and polish girl gamers  , I think most of the valid points about the topic have been made.We are just the generation that started E-sports , in a good 10-20 years time I surely think e-sports will be HUGE.
|
Honestly, the post referring to testosterone is pretty spot on. I live with a girl who plays...she's silver league and I give her a lot of credit for playing. She enjoys it but just doesn't have that killer instinct to crush someone. Same happened with WoW arena. Typically men are results driven and women are experience driven. Men want to win, women want to enjoy the experience of playing. Obviously a gross generalization, but one that I've found to be pretty accurate. If she knew she could win by cannon rushing/6 pooling someone, she wouldn't do it because she finds it to be distasteful.
Just my experience.
|
On November 20 2010 01:12 InvalidID wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 01:09 out4blood wrote:
We don't see a lot of pro females because we don't see a lot of female gamers. With a much smaller sample, large deviations from the mean (i.e. pro skill) are less likely to show up. But even if there were equal numbers of female gamers, would top females be able to compete with top males? Male and female physical capabilities are different. Why should we assume that their mental capabilities are not different as well? We don't assume that their mental capabilities are different because there is no evidence of it. Women currently outperform men in the US at most levels of education. There are less women in science and engineering, but the women do not under-perform compared to their male peers when external factors are accounted for.
While you're right about the general trends, women and men do have differing mental capabilities in some tasks - there are specific tasks where men have innate advantages vs women and vice versa. That isn't some sexist view, it's based on years of solid research.
Here's a link to a good brief list that I found:
http://www.mastersofhealthcare.com/blog/2009/10-big-differences-between-mens-and-womens-brains/
(Note: Links for each point are provided at the website, although a simple internet search, try google scholar for example, will find you plenty of medical journal articles about each thing)
These are some excepts of the ones I think tend to benefit men playing SC:
2.Left brain vs. both hemispheres. Men tend to process better in the left hemisphere of the brain while women tend to process equally well between the two hemispheres. This difference explains why men are generally stronger with left-brain activities and approach problem-solving from a task-oriented perspective while women typically solve problems more creatively and are more aware of feelings while communicating.
3.Mathematical abilities. An area of the brain called the inferior-parietal lobule (IPL) is typically significantly larger in men, especially on the left side, than in women. This section of the brain is thought to control mental mathematical ability, and probably explains why men frequently perform higher in mathematical tasks than do women. Interestingly, this is the same area of Einstein’s brain that was discovered to be abnormally large. The IPL also processes sensory information, and the larger right side in women allows them to focus on, "specific stimuli, such as a baby crying in the night."
9.Spatial ability. Men typically have stronger spatial abilities, or being able to mentally represent a shape and its dynamics, whereas women typically struggle in this area. Medical experts have discovered that women have a thicker parietal region of the brain, which hinders the ability to mentally rotate objects–an aspect of spatial ability. Research has shown this ability in babies as young as 5 months old, negating any ideas that these abilities were strengthened by environmental influences.
Of course, it's not all good for men. We get shafted on some other stuff:
5.Language. Two sections of the brain responsible for language were found to be larger in women than in men, indicating one reason that women typically excel in language-based subjects and in language-associated thinking. Additionally, men typically only process language in their dominant hemisphere, whereas women process language in both hemispheres. This difference offers a bit of protection in case of a stroke. Women may be able to recover more fully from a stroke affecting the language areas in the brain while men may not have this same advantage.
10.Susceptibility to disorders. Because of the way men and women use the two hemispheres of the brain differently, there are some disorders that men and women are susceptible to in different ways. Men are more apt to have dyslexia or other language problems. If women have dyslexia, they are more likely to compensate for it. Women, on the other hand, are more susceptible to mood disorders such as depression and anxiety. While handedness is not a disorder, these brain tendencies also explain why more men are left-handed than are women. Men are also more likely to be diagnosed with autism, ADHD, and Tourette’s Syndrome.
The link provided for #5 is from an NIH study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9041858
Regarding #10, the fact that men are more likely to have those disorders (which can in some cases be coupled with extreme specific talents in some areas e.g. bobby fischer) does explain why there are more male savants. Starcraft case in point: who hasn't seen Flash twitching? :D
Here's a snippet from another article about a different study:
...
The results from this study may help explain why men and women excel at different types of tasks, said co-author and neuropsychologist Rex Jung of the University of New Mexico. For example, men tend to do better with tasks requiring more localized processing, such as mathematics, Jung said, while women are better at integrating and assimilating information from distributed gray-matter regions of the brain, which aids language skills.
Scientists find it very interesting that while men and women use two very different activity centers and neurological pathways, men and women perform equally well on broad measures of cognitive ability, such as intelligence tests.
This research also gives insight to why different types of head injuries are more disastrous to one sex or the other. For example, in women 84 percent of gray matter regions and 86 percent of white matter regions involved in intellectual performance were located in the frontal lobes, whereas the percentages of these regions in a man's frontal lobes are 45 percent and zero, respectively. This matches up well with clinical data that shows frontal lobe damage in women to be much more destructive than the same type of damage in men.
...
http://www.livescience.com/health/050120_brain_sex.html
I could go on and on but yeah, there are differences. The ones I listed simply add to the other factors people have already listed such as lower number of gamers etc.
|
There are competitive women out there.. Trust me!
All the girls at my Go club are competitive as shit! There are just a few but boy, do they make up for it! When i lose a Go game in a tournament i usually feel bad but i just shrug it off with some cognac or smth.. But when one of theese girls lose (especially agains a worse player) , some actually start crying and cursing for hours! It's unbelivable!
There are only a few competitive women because of social standards and indoctrination.. Even if you look at the television, commercials and such.. Men are allways depicted in some sort of competition, while women are not.. That kind of thing leaves a mark in the subconscious..
|
Guys are raised with strategical thinking games their entire life. Risk, chess, baseball, etc. Girls grow up playing some games (like softball) but most games are focused on community effort. It is possible for girls to overcome this conditioning and compete competitively, but the competitive spirit is found much more in guys than girls. My wife loves playing wow and doing dungeons, but she hates battlegrounds. She said "It's not fun killing other people". She enjoys overcoming obstacles in combination with others. This also makes me think there is a different understanding between guys and girls. The goal of a male competitor is to defeat his opponents, the goal of a female competitor is to overcome her obstacles. This isn't always true obviously. In golf for example, people are trying to beat their best score, but in general i believe this might be true.
The other thing is that sc2 lends itself to guys abilities naturally. Guys are very visual in nature and can focus on specific tasks. This is why day9 says things like APM will come to you when you just are constantly focused on things you need to do, ie, have a plan. Girls on the other hand are adept to more auditory or verbal tasks and are good at thinking about multiple scenarios at nearly the same time, however, this does not apply well to starcraft as you cannot physically control multiple objects at the same time and there is only 1 screen. Also sc2 requires a ton of focus, and focus is the opposite of multitasking. When someone talks about multitasking in sc2, they are actually saying focusing on 2-3 different things in succession, not at the same time. I would venture to say that if the best players took the focus vs multitask test, they would all score really high on the focus section.
|
On November 20 2010 01:31 Energin wrote:
Honestly guys its because women give up too easily. SC2 is a difficult and competitive game without a social aspect. My wife is a gamer girl straight up. She's logged more hours on world of warcraft than I have, played the sims and sid meier's alpha centauri but SC2 owned her. It's not that she couldn't grasp how to play or anything. It's that she lost interest almost immediately because of how difficult it was, despite grasping the fundamentals fairly quickly.
read this and thought, did she married you because looking for someone better was too....
nah sorry thats just rude of me.
My point is more that, if you try to generalize all people based on the few people close to you, you have to realize it actually speaks more to what you want out of people that what people are. There are such a varity or dif personalites out there that those we choose to be with speak to us, not to the world.
|
On November 20 2010 01:44 Galleon.frigate wrote:Oh and people... really? women are not competitive by nature? are you insane? That's not it at all... in fact, have you ever seen to woman fight over anything? Actually you prob don't see becuase just like it's not 'acceptable' for a woman to be sexually aggressive, it's not acceptabe for a woman to be openly competative... you don't see woman go "BOOOOOOOOOOMSHAKALA I JUST RAPED YOU BIaaaaaaaTCH" because if they did... how do you think everyone else would look at her? For a guy's normal to win and hoot and holla. but don't fool yourself into thinking they don't care.
Think about it, when was the last time you saw a movie where the woman was super competitive, and not evil? ya ya I'm sure you can name one or two but those are the exceptions
It sounds like you might be getting "drivenness" (if that's a word) and "competitiveness" mixed up?
I don't think anyone's arguing that women are less driven to achieve something that they want to achieve. I think it's more a case of not wanting to achieve "being a top SC player" in the first place, likely because they don't have the same urge for competitiveness in the sense of "beating/proving your superiority to another person" that guys do.
|
On November 20 2010 01:46 South wrote:
Honestly, the post referring to testosterone is pretty spot on. I live with a girl who plays...she's silver league and I give her a lot of credit for playing. She enjoys it but just doesn't have that killer instinct to crush someone. Same happened with WoW arena. Typically men are results driven and women are experience driven. Men want to win, women want to enjoy the experience of playing. Obviously a gross generalization, but one that I've found to be pretty accurate. If she knew she could win by cannon rushing/6 pooling someone, she wouldn't do it because she finds it to be distasteful.
Just my experience.
That's correct from my experience too. For women its about the process/experience, for men its about the end result for many things.
In that case its truly different strengths. Men and women can work together to cover up many weakenesses of each gender. What people shouldn't pretend is that the genders are the same. SC simply isn't the kind of game that's going to appeal to women generally. It's generally unrewarding and stressful for them.
|
We need a female IdrA, someone who will rage when they lose and practice 10 hours to get better. :D
|
On November 20 2010 01:48 Galleon.frigate wrote:Show nested quote +On November 20 2010 01:31 Energin wrote:
Honestly guys its because women give up too easily. SC2 is a difficult and competitive game without a social aspect. My wife is a gamer girl straight up. She's logged more hours on world of warcraft than I have, played the sims and sid meier's alpha centauri but SC2 owned her. It's not that she couldn't grasp how to play or anything. It's that she lost interest almost immediately because of how difficult it was, despite grasping the fundamentals fairly quickly. read this and thought, did she married you because looking for someone better was too.... nah sorry thats just rude of me.
That's kind of funny. I mean you're making a lot of assumptions about me as a person. Do you think I should be talking like a feminist like 80% of the other guys in this thread are? A big part of the reason why she married me instead of some other guy is because I'm honest. I don't try to tell her what she wants to hear. I appreciate her for the things that are legitimately good rather than trying to pretend like everything is perfect all the time. My compliments are genuine and she knows that, part of the reason being that if she asks my opinion and its not positive I won't try to pretend like it is. Maybe some of you guys who lavish praise on girls no matter what they're doing should think about that. Your compliments lose all meaning.
|
What do people think regarding the obvious physiological / evolutionary differences between men / women?
Males in the animal kingdom have intense sexual selection pressures - from the mighty ibix physically vying with other males for a harem of females, to the Bowerbirds whom create elaborate nests through which to court potential mates.
Physiologically the obvious variances between men and women are the hormones, testosterone for one correlating to ones competetive drive.
I am in no way implying that women can not be successful in starcraft, and I believe much of it has to do with various societal pressures mentioned in this thread. Women can certainly be competitive, i've met a fair share of them. However, one can not disregard the evolutionary / physiological disparities that effect the competitive drive of the genders.
|
On November 20 2010 01:22 nkr wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2010 23:40 vicariouscheese wrote:On November 19 2010 23:30 Achilles wrote: (I mean, womens and mens curling is separate. what's with that?!) because the swedish womens curling team is too amazing to watch to be ruined by men playing alongside. Word! :D
agree!
We only had one hot girl in ours at the olympics 
|
I wouldn't even put it on anything beyond this...
The skill for a game is a bell curve. There's a ton of people in the middle, a few at the bottom, and a few at the top. Our pro gamers comprise pretty much the top 1% to top .1%. Anyone notable in a tournament is at most in the top 2-3% of the player population. We're talking about a really exclusive class of players. That's just the way it is, the top is always going to be a small % or they wouldn't be the top.
When you further divide up the player population by taking a specific segment you change the bell curve. It's just not going to extend as far out. There's a chance of there being outliers (like Tossgirl), but it's just that a chance and it's not really a likely one.
|
I saw several girls on mmos ...
now on rts you want to much...
|
So I dont think thats just the men/women ratio
So if you watch at WoW (probably one of the most played games by female gamers)
There was just one outstanding competetive female gamer (Hafu) I think there was another woman participating in a tournement but I might be wrong.
In the last time there was no female gamer playing in a huge tournemant (like MLG)
And I highly doubt that there are just 1% female gamers in WoW
|
girls dont play video games... why the hell would u want there to be more pro girl gamers anyways? seems like a strange wish tbh... and i dont know where u found that "40% of gamers are girls" statistic but theres no way that is true.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
