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On June 21 2011 20:22 billy5000 wrote:
Why bring up a primitive idea that has been disproved in the modern world?
Thoughts like yours are the reason why women have a harder time adjusting to male-dominated occupations.
Give it time. Plus, it's not like they're limited by their physical capacities like in sports as long as they know how to use a keyboard and a mouse.
Wich ideas are those? the one that I dont agree that segregating women from men in esports is perticularely good for womens gaming? or that I think women shouldnt take it to thick when the verbal shit hits the fan as its not something that happens only to women?
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On June 21 2011 20:17 NeverGG wrote:
'There is a lot more girls playing computer games today then it was 10 years ago and all women aren't fat, ugly flat chested drama queens as all guys aren't fat, pale, spotty geeks. '
As a fat/ugly/flat chested drama queen I'm rather good at video games. I just prefer to play ones which don't involve other people (Biohazard series, Silent Hill series, Fatal Frame, some RPGs, etc.) I get that you're making the distinction between the out-dated stereotype that all gamers are ugly losers living in their parent's basements etc. However, if it's linked to the idea that 'only hot girl (gamers) are worthy of existing.' then I find that pretty depressing/shallow.
*Looks around for that paper bag to put over her head again.*
P.S. In terms of spectating and getting involved in the fan club activities (as well as playing and being very knowledgeable about the technical side of games such as SC:BW.) it doesn't really need to be promoted to women here in Korea - there are already loads of them regularly attending matches, and organizing events.
As for the foreign scene - as an ugly girl with poor social skills I've found it to be a place filled with quite a lot of arrogant guys who will not give you the time of day unless you're pretty. (Regardless of how hard you work.) I've met a lot of nice guys during my time working in eSports, but like with most male-centric things (which the foreign scene pretty much is.) you get a lot of big egos (sometimes with gold-diggers attached to them.) This happens even more so online in certain places - for example the first time my photo was posted on TL the very first comment stated how ugly I was - as if that defined me and my worth in the scene.
Thank you for this very nice post 
Arent you afraid that women are seen as "only" being good on the administrative side of esports? and when I say "only" ofc I dont mean only only... but you catch my drift.
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On June 21 2011 20:17 piegasm wrote:Show nested quote +Do you care if you play girls or boys? why would girls care if they play girls or boys? I understand purely societywise it can be more important ofc. but gamewise? Probably a lot of the girls who participate in those tournaments are the only one of their female RL friends who play SC2. Try being one of very few females in a very male dominated situation. I've stopped even bothering to correct people when they refer to me as "he" because someone else will just do it 10 seconds later. There's also the issue of what happens to a lot of guys on the internet once they realize they're interacting with an actual female. "OMG there are gurls on teh interwebs?! hurr hurr hurr." Sometimes you're better off just letting them think you're male. It's just nice once in a while to be able to admit you're female without having to deal with the idiocy that happens when a lot of males on the internet realize there's a female in their midst. Having said that, if it were to become standard practice in major events to segregate the female competitors from the male, that would bother me. In physical sports there's a reason to do that because males have a physical advantage in size and strength. In e-sports there is no such limitation.
Yeah, totaly agree. I've met my gf via a computer game and for 3 years now I'm able to watch her getting along in the internet. She plays SC2 (beats me sometimes), FPS and RPGs. She never ever admits that she is a girl until she can be sure that the guy she's talking to is not a complete douchebag because she doesn't want to be treated differently.
I must admit though that she is not as competitive as I am and she is more into things that are fun. While I try to be the best I can, she just enjoys gaming. Dunno if this is somthing that applies only to her but I have a generel feeling that girls approach gaming ... differently. Still she beats me every TL Fantasy League season ... =/
In my oppinion it just needs some time. There will be a time where girls won't be that rare on the internet and e-sports events will be crowded equally by both genders. And establishing girls only tournaments would rather be a punch in the face than an improvement.
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On June 21 2011 20:46 Toolshed wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 20:17 piegasm wrote:Do you care if you play girls or boys? why would girls care if they play girls or boys? I understand purely societywise it can be more important ofc. but gamewise? Probably a lot of the girls who participate in those tournaments are the only one of their female RL friends who play SC2. Try being one of very few females in a very male dominated situation. I've stopped even bothering to correct people when they refer to me as "he" because someone else will just do it 10 seconds later. There's also the issue of what happens to a lot of guys on the internet once they realize they're interacting with an actual female. "OMG there are gurls on teh interwebs?! hurr hurr hurr." Sometimes you're better off just letting them think you're male. It's just nice once in a while to be able to admit you're female without having to deal with the idiocy that happens when a lot of males on the internet realize there's a female in their midst. Having said that, if it were to become standard practice in major events to segregate the female competitors from the male, that would bother me. In physical sports there's a reason to do that because males have a physical advantage in size and strength. In e-sports there is no such limitation. Yeah, totaly agree. I've met my gf via a computer game and for 3 years now I'm able to watch her getting along in the internet. She plays SC2 (beats me sometimes), FPS and RPGs. She never ever admits that she is a girl until she can be sure that the guy she's talking to is not a complete douchebag because she doesn't want to be treated differently. I must admit though that she is not as competitive as I am and she is more into things that are fun. While I try to be the best I can, she just enjoys gaming. Dunno if this is somthing that applies only to her but I have a generel feeling that girls approach gaming ... differently. Still she beats me every TL Fantasy League season ... =/ In my oppinion it just needs some time. There will be a time where girls won't be that rare on the internet and e-sports events will be crowded equally by both genders. And establishing girls only tournaments would rather be a punch in the face than an improvement.
The last paragraf is what I agree with and tried to say only I used a whole lot of more useless words I guess 
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But seeing as we're not at that point yet, we need to promote eSports to females ... Female only tournaments is one way of doing this.
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On June 21 2011 20:06 AtreSamus wrote:
My only problem with female only tourneys is that I believe any male only tourney would be criticised and probably banned from TL. - Number J
If allowing one and not the other is always a bit of walking on an edge. What would happen if TL would refuse to touch any Women only tournaments? Would that "force" women to stop waiting for those events and start mixing in more with the larger group?
My reasoning comes from first principles and not the practical situation at the moment. I recognise that it would be desirable to encourage more females into gaming, and that female only tourneys might do this. However I've always thought that people should be treated the same even if they aren't the same.
A moral position on right/wrong shouldn't change depending on the actual situation of the day.
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Let the girls have their own tournaments if they want to. If I was a girl, I would probably want to play against the best though, although maybe that's my guy genes talking.
There's one major difference between males and females. You could point at statistics, but if 95% (or whatever) of the pro chess players are male, it can only mean that men are more driven, and thus reach further because of their hard work. I think you can prove this by looking at the lower levels. Back in school I remember beating girls in chess, but I also remember losing. I never noticed any difference between males and females, except that most of the really good players were guys. But these guys played in chess clubs so it was kind of obvious. I'm pretty sure it's the same thing in SC. If you let 50 complete newbs of both genders play against eachother, I think it would be even. But if you instead just introduced them to the game, and then told them that there would be a tournament in 3 months, then I'm positive that the guys would win by a huge margin.
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I haven't been involved in the SC2 scene long enough yet or even at a high enough level to say what the current landscape is with female gamers, but I do remember playing on War2 on Kali and Case's Ladder. There were some highly skilled females that played back then. Granted, it was still less than 1%, but the top players of that time embraced the female players as part of the group. I guess it probably didn't hurt that each of the female players back then I knew to have a thick skin and often viewed themselves as "one of the guys". As for looks, none of us cared, but I got to meet a couple of them and they ranged from average to pretty.
Video games are different from other sports where gender differences exist. There is no reason that a woman should have any less skill/aptitude to play an RTS game. That said, I could care less as to what exclusionary tournaments are offered. If you don't want to participate in them, then don't. It's as simple as that. As long as there are no measures in place to prevent women, or any other group for that matter from competing at the top levels, then we're not dealing with any equality issues here, and so far, I have not seen anything in the pro event rules that would eliminate a woman from participating on the basis of having a shorter urethra.
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On June 21 2011 22:51 silverhand wrote:
Video games are different from other sports where gender differences exist. There is no reason that a woman should have any less skill/aptitude to play an RTS game. That said, I could care less as to what exclusionary tournaments are offered. If you don't want to participate in them, then don't. It's as simple as that. As long as there are no measures in place to prevent women, or any other group for that matter from competing at the top levels, then we're not dealing with any equality issues here, and so far, I have not seen anything in the pro event rules that would eliminate a woman from participating on the basis of having a shorter urethra.
This seems to be about right. I see now that I was making a hen out of a feather I suppose
Still it was kind of nice to see a few other ppls views on things aswell. Even if they differed a bit it seems that most ppl come to the same conclusions.
Cheers guys and gals
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On June 21 2011 22:01 ninini wrote:
Let the girls have their own tournaments if they want to. If I was a girl, I would probably want to play against the best though, although maybe that's my guy genes talking.
There's one major difference between males and females. You could point at statistics, but if 95% (or whatever) of the pro chess players are male, it can only mean that men are more driven, and thus reach further because of their hard work. I think you can prove this by looking at the lower levels. Back in school I remember beating girls in chess, but I also remember losing. I never noticed any difference between males and females, except that most of the really good players were guys. But these guys played in chess clubs so it was kind of obvious. I'm pretty sure it's the same thing in SC. If you let 50 complete newbs of both genders play against eachother, I think it would be even. But if you instead just introduced them to the game, and then told them that there would be a tournament in 3 months, then I'm positive that the guys would win by a huge margin.
You completely ignore enculturation/socialization. How long have you been playing games for? For people of our, (or my, I have no idea how old you are), generation, games were very much a "guy" thing when I was little. Now I just so happened to have only a brother, only one female cousin in the entire extended family, and was the only girl my age in the neighborhood. All through elementary school, I hung out with the boys. We played nintendo games, starcraft, red alert, etc. My brother and I played Tie Fighter together. He manned the joystick and I controlled the keyboard because it was hard to do both at the same time. I grew up playing computer games, but I was far from the norm.
Most parents don't buy halflife for their daughter. Just as they don't often buy knex or an erector set or a chemistry set for their daughters. We get dolls, which are often creepy as hell, or toy kitchens, which is downright insulting. We aren't generally encouraged to go out and compete, but the notion that girls can't be competitive is laughable. You should have seen my high school crew team. Or my cousin's field hockey team. We could make the men look civilized. A lot of this is changing, but for many girls being raised today, parents may even actively discourage them from playing violent games, or from participating in stereotypically "male" activities.
Let's look at academia. 80 years ago, there were no women anywhere in high-end fields because well, we weren't *allowed* to be. Women weren't sent to school, much less universities. Would you have claimed that it must be a biological difference that no women enrolled in Harvard a century ago? If so, then women have magically increased in raw intelligence in the last several decades. Same with minorities. Surely no one would claim that minority under representation in academia/business is purely physical. Social factors affect us more than we want to admit.
Honestly I find it insulting that you could say that women simply "aren't built" to compete in games. We're taught not to from a very young age. When you're born, you're wrapped in either a pink or a blue blanket, right on day one. Your parents dress you in little pants or a dress, and that dictates how the world sees and treats you. So just as the old Greek philosophers, (wealthy men with the free time to sit around and ponder philosophy), used to consider women and slaves inherently stupider than themselves, you can claim that we aren't as good at games. But give the world another 20 years or so, or wait for these daughters of nerds to grow up, and we'll see a very different picture.
(and don't get me started on the "IF YOU WANNA BE TREATED EQUAL DON'T MENTION UR GENDER LOLOLOL". Believe it or not, being female has shaped a lot of my worldly experiences. It's hard to just drop that and put up a facade. The notion that I *should* do so just to be treated equally is also insulting.)
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There's a difference between being competitive and being driven. Competitive ppl live in the moment. Driven ppl live in the future. Women can probably be as competitive as men, but there's a lot of signs that show them not being as driven. If it's because of social conditioning doesn't matter to me, but that's how things are.
I honestly think women are equally talented to men, but in general they don't find the concept of developing a skill as tempting as men do. Atleast that's the only way I can explain why they aren't as successful, or maybe it's because they are taught not to have goals. It's definately not because they aren't interested in SC, Chess or whatever, because statistically the top tier is skewed in favor for men, if you look at the total amount of players.
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There's nothing insulting or morally wrong about all-female SC2 tournaments. They're actually a fantastic idea and only help further the Starcraft and ESPORT community. There is currently a disproportionate representation of males:females in video games and ESPORTS, in the RTS genre especially, so female tournaments help facilitate more women becoming active in the competitive scene and in the community. This is especially helpful because there are many barriers to entry for women into competitive video games (sexism, awkward internet social hierarchy, etc).
On June 21 2011 22:01 ninini wrote:
There's one major difference between males and females. You could point at statistics, but if 95% (or whatever) of the pro chess players are male, it can only mean that men are more driven, and thus reach further because of their hard work. I think you can prove this by looking at the lower levels. Back in school I remember beating girls in chess, but I also remember losing. I never noticed any difference between males and females, except that most of the really good players were guys. But these guys played in chess clubs so it was kind of obvious. I'm pretty sure it's the same thing in SC. If you let 50 complete newbs of both genders play against eachother, I think it would be even. But if you instead just introduced them to the game, and then told them that there would be a tournament in 3 months, then I'm positive that the guys would win by a huge margin.
I also want to point out that this is completely wrong - there is no difference in aptitude between men and women. Any differences that you observe through life experience is influenced entirely by societal expectations and our natural tendency to conform to those expectations.
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On June 21 2011 18:31 AtreSamus wrote:
- Wouldnt just the simple solutions be not to tell ppl are you are a woman? if you use voice com with a person one wouldve thought you knew those people well enough to know you wont get judged for it? Then again women shouldnt have to hide the fact they are women aswell as a woman should be able to wear what clothes she wants to without being blamed for being molested... in a perfect world...
I think you need to look up the definition of "misogynist".
It boggles my mind that you are so offended by female only SC2 tournaments. Do you feel the same way about all gender segregated sports? Basketball softball track soccer... Do you feel the same way about affirmative action?
Men and women are different. That's not a bad thing, its a good thing. Uniqueness should be celebrated, not despised.
And for the record, I've dated several gamer girls and I've seen them get like 10x the crap I do when playing online with voice comm. It is true that guys are harsh towards each other as well, but it is NO WHERE NEAR as bad as it is for women. You're fooling yourself if you think women receive "equal treatment" when playing online. And your notion that women simply have "thinner skins" is equally ridiculous.
The main reason why there aren't many female gamers is because it is not yet socially acceptable for women to do so. It's been okay for men to be nerds since Star Trek 40 years ago. It's only been very recently that its started to become being okay for women, and it's still restricted to casual stuff like flash/facebook games and mmos.
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Yo i know girls who beast on the Sims lol
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On June 22 2011 02:18 kNightLite wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 18:31 AtreSamus wrote:
- Wouldnt just the simple solutions be not to tell ppl are you are a woman? if you use voice com with a person one wouldve thought you knew those people well enough to know you wont get judged for it? Then again women shouldnt have to hide the fact they are women aswell as a woman should be able to wear what clothes she wants to without being blamed for being molested... in a perfect world... I think you need to look up the definition of "misogynist". It boggles my mind that you are so offended by female only SC2 tournaments. Do you feel the same way about all gender segregated sports? Basketball softball track soccer... Do you feel the same way about affirmative action? Men and women are different. That's not a bad thing, its a good thing. Uniqueness should be celebrated, not despised. And for the record, I've dated several gamer girls and I've seen them get like 10x the crap I do when playing online with voice comm. It is true that guys are harsh towards each other as well, but it is NO WHERE NEAR as bad as it is for women. You're fooling yourself if you think women receive "equal treatment" when playing online. And your notion that women simply have "thinner skins" is equally ridiculous. The main reason why there aren't many female gamers is because it is not yet socially acceptable for women to do so. It's been okay for men to be nerds since Star Trek 40 years ago. It's only been very recently that its started to become being okay for women, and it's still restricted to casual stuff like flash/facebook games and mmos.
I didnt say I found it offensive I just tried to say I thought it is counterproductive and you are absolutely right about the word misogynist I had no idea what it ment but if you are trying to say that I am one, I can assure you I am not.
As stated by me and other people here its not the same as more physical sports due to the fact that we ARE different in that way.
To be unique or not has, atleast to me, nothing to do with gender. How can you be unique at that when you have to be either of?
About the thinner skin, its a generalisation and mostly due to the women that article I had read was about. I shall try and find it to link here though it is a few months old and might have been removed. Those to me, reading it that time, seemed to do with a bit more "skin on the nose".
To the last paragraph I think we somewhat agree
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On June 21 2011 19:01 Trumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 18:55 Loser777 wrote:On June 21 2011 18:52 Trumpet wrote:
Do you have a problem with gold and under tournaments as well? Providing tournaments for lower-level players is different from segregating sexes or assuming that girls will inherently be worse. Why? It's an arbitrary distinction. If I hold a tournament only open to people from my state or country, is that also unfair? Also, why are you assuming girls are worse? The distinction isn't made because all girls are trapped in copper league, it's made to help female players meet other female players. The TSL had similar segregating rules. It didn't allow Koreans to play until TSL3. Is that unfair? Somewhat, but we wanted a tournament for the foreign players who had stuck with starcraft over the years, is it really that bad?
Are you saying that all tournaments that segregate are the same on the basis that they are arbitrary decisions?
To clarify, I never said that girls were worse--only that segregating girls with the assumption that they are worse is different from creating a league for lower level decisions.
Again, I never said anything about any one type of tournament being bad. I was offering a distinction between different types of separation.
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OK I found the article but its in swedish and I also found the blog they run but Im unsure if its ok to link it here as it does contain the most horrible of language.
Please note that I do not defend the way these retards behave nor what they say or how they treat women and Im sure men. After quickly looking through some of the blog pages I can also say alot of these comments can have been made to either gender and I have seen similar comments made between guys aswell and I belive thats where the "thicker skin" comes in to play.
Again, the abuse on the internet is a much larger issue and wasnt really what I wanted to address as its to big for me to ever try to make heads or tails of and its totally beyond me how people can treat eachother in that manner.
Does anyone know if its ok to link their blog? its not there to create offense but more to highlight the fact that these things are going on and its time to do something about it. Wich I agree with but I think it doesnt necessarily needs to be abuse towards women only.
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I support women only tournaments.
Because it helps an underrepresented minority get involved.
It doesn't bother me in the slightest.
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Calgary26003 Posts
I think women-only tournaments are great. I think the threads about them are not.
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On June 22 2011 04:21 Chill wrote:
I think women-only tournaments are great. I think the threads about them are not.
:/ thats a shame. As said before I didnt mean to make offense to anyone or any gender.
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EPT
