EPTBut if the vote ends with XCD on the noose, please shoot iGrok.
TL Mafia XL - Page 46
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Sprungjeezy
United States1313 Posts
But if the vote ends with XCD on the noose, please shoot iGrok. | ||
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Sprungjeezy
United States1313 Posts
On June 09 2011 11:06 Kairo wrote: I feel that we were lucky that we did not get a third townie kill with misvigies, since it would have caused huge amounts of confusion. How likely is it that iGrok and xkcd is on the same team? What would it mean if a) iGrok flips green? b) iGrok flips red? c) xkcd flips green? d) xkcd flips red? My current vote stands for xkcd, but i can still be convinced to change. If any mafia try to affect the grok/xkcd vote situation they will have to leave footprints, which is useful. Is there any 95%+ identified mafia in any of the "what if" scenarios a-d that we can use our vigies on? Is there any 95%+ identified BLATANTLY OBVIOUS FOR MAFIA medic target in any of the "what if" scenarios a-d that we can use? Do NOT out blues for the mafia. There is no need to do any analysis for them. For some of this to be relevant: when does abilites resolve? is it by timer or simuntaneusly at the end of the night? when does medic/vigi PM timing (early/late) matter? I believe this is potentially a double-edged sword, since stressing a decision for mafia could be useful while a premature medic/vigi decision could be really really bad. What would be nice would be to force a win/win situation for the town, but I can not see such a path clearly at this time. is the mafia allowed to change their targets during the night? Given: If targets are allowed to be changed and abilities resolve simuntaneusly at the end of the night then much of this post is garbage. So far I feel that most of the mafia have been throwing stones in the bushes with us townies. Lots of accusations the first night, and lots of chatter about who they trust and who they don't as well as votes being tossed every which way. From what I recall (and I recall most of it) iGrok didn't mention XCD all that much if at all, but I haven't analyzed XCD that much, he seems to be part of 3 people that did something very stupid and any of the three could be scum or just unlucky. But again, I haven't analyzed him all that much and others seem to have the vibe (or somewhat "proof" that he is scum, but I feel iGrok is a much more important target so I have been focusing on getting people to change to him. | ||
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aprudds
Canada144 Posts
"I will add that I find it curious that ever since the heat had turned on iGrok and several people started voting for him, his rather extensive and frequent posting/analysis has all but dried up." -_-, your being biased again. He dropped off for 12 hours, you turned on the heat day one. I'm still waiting for Jimbooo, Xkcd and Drazerk to post, been waiting the entire day now. + Show Spoiler + I will post a complete analysis of every major players here when i get home from finals today. Man those are some long finals xkcd......... If I don't hear anything by midnight I'm voting for you. Also jackal you seemed to have gotten alot quieter, whats our thoughts? | ||
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aprudds
Canada144 Posts
I forgot the y in your | ||
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Sprungjeezy
United States1313 Posts
On June 09 2011 00:13 iGrok wrote: I stopped here. So you completely skipped me fighting with Kurumi? Back to reading. You know what, I'm done. I'm sick of defending myself against ridiculous tunnels. I'm sick of not being given credit for helping out newbies and pointing them towards good town play. And, I'm sick of being accused of being GF every time I defend myself. Cya. This is why iGrok stopped posting. He is unsure how to proceed with his defense or has conceded already. Personally I would feel terrible (and extremely annoyed) if iGrok was just a pissed off townie who didn't defend himself just to spite me, but I'm 95% sure he is Scum and probably GF. | ||
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CjrNinja
Australia223 Posts
Ok. Xkcd and Igrok should die. iGrok should die first. After reading through GGQ’s and DeMorcef’s posts I have found: DeMorcef and GGQ suspected Drazerk DeMorcef and GGQ suspected amazingxkcd DeMorcef defended iGrok DeMorcef votes for Drazerk along with iGrok I think DeMorcef has died for the following reasons: a) He defends iGrok and votes Drazerk with iGrok, which give iGrok town cred. b) To throw more suspicion on Drazerk, who currently isn’t making the best show of himself so far. GGQ suspected iGrok, looked for further investigation into iGrok and Kurumi. GGQ suspected Vain, voted Jimbooo. I think GGQ died for 3 reasons: a) Has been the only person to suspect Vain, which no one has picked up on (yet). b) Suspected iGrok, though wasn’t as vocal about it (before his ‘death posts’) c) Experienced player A summary of Vain’s posting history, - Tries to throw freeloader under the bus - “small suspicion is better than no suspicion” regarding freeloader, advocating his lynch. - Defends iGrok - Continue to defend iGrok while distancing himself - Light defence of rookie - Defends Senj’s inactivity. He says senj was inactive and modkilled in another game. - Distances himself from iGrok - Votes rookie “For the sake of voting”. This is a terrible bandwagoning. rookie is dead. Vain makes an ‘oh shit’ post and goes inactive, yet continues posting on teamliquid. Now, iGrok: Most people have built their case against iGrok, so I’m not going to repeat what’s already been said. However I would like to emphasize: 1) iGrok advocated a Night 1 vig hit against the three people who voted rookie within 5 minutes of each other (xkcd, kurmuri and senj) . In the event that someone had shot xkcd and he flipped red; iGrok could have patted himself on the back for advocating the shot. In the event one (or more) of them gets shot and flips green, wasted Night 1 vig shots on townies. Win-win for iGrok and mafia. 2) The iGrok-Treadmill relationship. Let me elaborate by showing you these quotes from iGrok regarding Treadmill. “Everything he's done has been in the right. Everything. When it was unpopular, he stood by his ideas. He's defended those he felt were wrongly accused, and and accused those he felt were guilty. IMO, Treadmill is Town.” “Haven't read it yet, but I'm going to go ahead and nominate Treadmill for the "Best Rookie (no pun intended) Award". Hats off to you, doing analysis like a boss, standing up for what you think, and making really good reads on people (like the aforementioned Rookie).” Such praise suggests that they are in league with each other. But I’m suspicious of how overt iGrok is with his praise. He even posted that second quote in green to draw attention to it! This overtness leads me to believe that iGrok is setting Treadmill up for a lynch after iGrok flips red. People will associate iGrok with Treadmill and he will be a number 1 scum suspect that people will see as justified after all the attention iGrok showers on him. In summary, lynch iGrok today, not xkcd. Keep your eye on Vain when he starts posting again. Treadmill is probably being set up. Also, Drazerk, I love your Live Reports on the GSL threads, care to bring your attention here and give an LR on this mafia game? Not saying you’re scum but you are suspicious. | ||
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CjrNinja
Australia223 Posts
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Sprungjeezy
United States1313 Posts
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amazingxkcd
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
A Detailed outlook and Analysis of This Town DISCLAIMER: THIS POST IS ACCURATE UP TO THE 44th PAGE OF THE THREAD, DEVELOPING POSTS WILL NOT BE CONSIDERED. ALSO, THIS THREAD IS REDICULUOSLY LONG, SO READ ONLY WHAT YOU FEEL IS NECESSARY FOR WHATEVER SIDE YOU ARE ON ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bInyG.jpg) Don’t know this guy? That’s me, shame on you!  Sections of report
Introductions This report and the analysis has purely came from the people who want me to defend myself as well as me wanting to put together my view of the current situation in the game. I will try to be as arbitrary as possible, but because I want to win for the town, and because I do have personal convictions of certain players here, I may seem biased. Player Analysis will include every single player that is still alive after the 1st night, though dead player’s quotes may be used to help further analysis of the players. This report will cater towards the town more so because the Mafia already knows who they are and they already know what is their main course of action. Here we go! Player Analysis and Personal thoughts [SPOILER] Every single player will be posted here besides me, since others can analysis and decide what they think of me. As of now, these players are dead and are considered to be inactive from the thread
All of the players above are dead for their own reasons respective. I will not take time to analyze them because they cannot help any further, besides the roles they played. Onto the list! [*] Munk-E ] + Show Spoiler + His 1st Quote Looking at the people who are being voted for, here's my analysis. -freeloader625 I think we're being a bit too hasty having him have with most votes. Sure his defenses were flimsy and irrelevant, but the reason we voted him in the first place was because he wasn't sure of the rules. This is a beginner's game, so I don't think this alone should be enough for a lynch. The fact that he has, however, been flimsy with his defense leads me to believe that we may have gotten lucky accusing him. Another thing is that he continually cites his experience with SC2 mafia. I don't know if any of you played this, but it's not very difficult. You have 1 minute days and it is random lynching most of the time. Now it is possible to pin his poor defense on the easier mafia game, but I don't think that's really relevant at all. The poor defense is either caused by he is mafia, and a bad liar, or he's town, and a bad player. I don't think however, that asking about the rules makes him mafia, and besides, if he was mafia, he would know the answer to the question. If we pretend he's really good at this game though, he might ask the question just to attempt to show inexperience and therefore be less likely to be lynched. I do think though, that if he were experienced, he would be able to foresee the fallout of his question. Therefore I think that he is just an inexperienced player looking for answers of how the game is played. That also is probably the reason his defense was so bad. -lafali This one is interesting because he only has 2 posts. Both not very informative. One of them patting aprudds on the back, the latter accusing him because of something that happened far before the first earlier post. he voted freeloader at first, RIGHT before his second post. But an hour after he accused aprudds, he unvoted for seemingly no reason, and has yet to vote. lafali is acting awfully suspicious, but I don't think that 2 short posts is quite enough information to judge him on. However, keep an eye out on him, he does seem rather suscpicious. -aprudds He seems like an honest scum-hunting citizen, and his only vote so far is by pyo for the reason "aprudds - for a really arbitrary out of nowhere accusation". His accusation was reasoned by him, and he even stated it was partially just to get the discussion started. Honestly, he has been the most scum-hunting of us, so I think he's very town. -TheAwesomeAll Considering this vote seems like a joke, I don't have much to say. First of all, it wasn't nearly his first post, as monsterDraker said, and furthermore, it wasn't even anything that bad, it was just facts. It does lead me to be suspicious of monster though. He voted because the post "annoyed" him. He seems WAY to hasty to vote. Because this game is geared for a beginner’s playstyle, his analysis of people jumping too hard on freeloader confirms with the game’s level of skill. Freeloader may be seen as a inexperienced player, not knowing the rules completely. His thoughts on lafali is correct since lafali flipped scum, and noticed that lafali attempted to create fake accusations with aprudds, then switched votes to freeloader. From this, Lafali’s flip loads of suspicions on aprudds. He shows that his belief is that arpudds is innocent as aprudds is seemed to be a “scum-hunting citizen”. He shows concern about TheAwesomeAll since he believes that TheAwesomeAll does not have a valid reason to vote for anyone. His 2nd quote Is anyone else suspicious of lafali? I mean he has said nothing to help anyone with his posts! He has 3 real posts. the first one is this. Good catch by aprudds. A townie wouldn't need to know that information. However, he could be new. There are 40 people in this game though, so its not like its mylo. This was about the whole freeloader incident at the beginning. This post is no help at all. He starts by complementing aprudds for his "good catch", and then immediately says why it may not matter. This post did nothing to help at all. His next post is On June 05 2011 15:16 Lafali wrote: Show nested quote + His subsequent posts were fishy. Due to that I hopped on the voting bandwagon along with them. Its a 40 player game, I'm sure we can afford a few mislynches. Regardless, we should continue scumhunting. We do have 48 hours. He says "It's a 40 player game" again. and then clarifys what he means by saying "I'm sure we can afford a few mislynches." Now this is obviously scummy behavior. Saying this could only imply that mislynches aren't so bad. What's worse is even after he gave his incredibly scummy opinion, he said "Regardless, we should continue scumhunting" this is the complete opposite of what he was implying and feels like he kind of just tacked it on there to not seem as scummy. even after that, he says "We do have 48 hours" this again somewhat reinforces my analysis about his quote earlier about mislynches not being so bad. It's saying that we shouldn't worry now. Also in this post, he mentions just hopping on the bandwagon. At the time of this post, he DID just hop on the bandwagon. 10 minuites earlier, he was the 3rd person to vote. an hour after he voted, he unvoted seemingly unprompted with no explanation. He has yet to re-vote. This behavior seems pretty scummy. I'm guessing that the mafia PMed him and told him not to unvote freeloader, as he was drawing suspicion to himself. This post is filled with contradictions and scummy behavior. His 3rd and final post is this: On June 06 2011 04:02 Lafali wrote: Show nested quote + I'm new to mafia forum games like this and mostly used to smaller and faster-paced ones where taking a risk on a mislynch is pretty common as long as the game is not mislynch-lose. The subsequent posts from treadmill seemed fishy and people started to vote for him and at that point he was the only one looking suspicious to me. However, after reading more into the thread it seemed like a bad idea to vote so early, and it would be better to wait for any tells, and then on day two, cop reports. Here, he is being ULTRA defensive. along with being, again, completely useless. He first states that his previous experience with a different form of the game leads him to believe that mislynches are okay. He is saying "mislynches are okay, and here's why I think so" again. Next he mentions that he finds treadmill fishy. He gives no evidence for this at all, and the only reason he even mentioned him is because kurumi said he was more scummy than treadmill. his purpose in mentioning treadmill was to get kurumi to not vote him. He next says that voting early seems like a bad idea, despite the fact he was the 3rd to vote. And finally, he seems to be expecting DT to reveal himself tomorrow. Note that he hasn't posted since this when people, including myself, started attacking him. I guess they forgot about him, but he definitely seems the most scummy to me. ##VOTE lafali Here he defends his reasoning for why Lafali is a scum, analyzing his quotes and making a stance on it. Woah! He was right! Lafali was a scum. Sadly, He has not talked any futher, which leads to show that he has signs of inactivity. However, going from his analysis and the fact that he was correct, the verdict is: A TOWNIE. [*] blackone + Show Spoiler + 1st Quote This confuses me because from the other Mafia threads I read I feel that PMs are a pretty important part of the game. In particular, how is the scum supposed to operate without PMs? He did not read the thread entirely, and did not inform himself. This is clear signs of a TL Mafia first-Timer, but there is no hard evidence to suggest anything about him. 2nd quote Well, posting cute little haikus and being funny can lead to the suspicion that you have some kind of interest in being considered funny and friendly. Also, if you don't agree to that, why will you stop doing that now? It's not like gtrsrs can impose rules on how you have to post. He is just voicing his opinions on gtrsrs being annoyed with iGrok (Cmon, I liked your haikus too, it adds flavor to the game), but again there is nothing to suggest about his role. 3rd quote On June 06 2011 21:47 Xedat wrote: I just read through the whole thread, it looks like people started more useful posts later on, reading through pages 8-17 was a chore. I think it is established that freeloader625's question is not a scum tell, as GGQ told us that they have a "quick topic" and would know if he was scum. I agree as far as his original question is concerned, but his responses to being suspected seem really weird. Especially his last one, he's not posting for a while, gets called out by CjrNinja - Hide Spoiler - On June 06 2011 13:25 CjrNinja wrote: I do agree with you that Freeloader should be a little (read: lot) more active considering the accusations against him (Maybe MLG is taking precedence?). Speak up Freeloader, we want to hear what you have to say. and, pretty much immediately, responds with this: On June 06 2011 14:21 freeloader625 wrote: It's true. I spent most of the weekend watching MLG, both streams. I was keeping an eye on this for all mirror matches though, I just chose not to comment. Show nested quote + Yes, I'm ashamed to admit I let pages 2-8 or 9 go without reading it, I assumed it was all just full of "/in's." I only read the first post and posts since the game has officially started. Show nested quote + Ohhh dirtay! I didn't not realize outside posts were fair game for this! I was under the impression (initially) that you can't click on ppls profiles/outside posts to avoid cheating or w/e. But I guess that's fair game. What do I honestly think and why haven't I really commented even though I threw myself under the bus? I'll give a longer explanation come closer to Day 1's end. Har har har, another "bad defensive" post by me :D Take it as you may. which is basically 1) Excuses for lurking 2) Claiming he didn't knew that checking a players post history was fair game 3) Claiming that he has some long explanation for his defense, that he is going to post at some point in the future. While 2) is another very defensive reaction to being accused of lurking, 3) is the one that makes this whole post sound scummy to me, it seems like he can't defend himself at that point and wants to do so later, but sees the need for an immediate response. Why would he post something like that instead of either posting something to defend himself or posting nothing at all? (Especially since at the time he says he's going to post [closer to Day 1's end] nothing will have changed. Except the focus of the town may be on someone else.) I think his post didn't get a lot of attention because the whole iGrok/gtrsrs/kurumi thing started to go off one post later, or does anybody else just think he is a townie that feels pressured and doesn't know what to say? Here is his first meaning post, where he starts to get into the game. He gives reasons for why freeloader acted the way he did, and attempts to guess his role. He shows suspicion but doesn’t push that suspicion further here. However, he made a little slipup when he said “Except the focus of the town may be on someone else”. This slipup, if analyzed in a certain way, can actually lead to him being a mafia since the tone of the statement is in 3rd-person rather than 1st person and he attempts to guess something instead of saying “unless we have other bigger cases at the moment”. However, this is a noobie game, so it may be just a slight mishap. 3rd post I'll vote freeloader now, mostly because of this On June 06 2011 14:21 freeloader625 wrote: What do I honestly think and why haven't I really commented even though I threw myself under the bus? I'll give a longer explanation come closer to Day 1's end. Har har har, another "bad defensive" post by me :D Take it as you may. His longer explanation still hasn't happened, of course, I have no idea why people were focusing on his initial question when they were abandoning this case instead of his horrible "defense". And the vote on rookie is stupid, people are bandwagoning because of one short post of analysis. Bad analysis actually, because 1) comparing b.net mafia to this one is just wrong, 2) he wasn't role fishing (you could say he was fishing for a town plan, but there's no way a blue would have role claimed because of what rookie wrote, newbie or not) so all that's left is On June 06 2011 04:22 rookie44 wrote: Maybe some of the more experienced players could expand on what investigative stratagies they have used; their pitfalls, and how we may evade those pitfalls. which is fishy, yes, but definitely not more than what we have on freeloader. He states that the bandwagoning on rookie is stupid, but acknowledges that may there are reasons for the accusations against rookie. He then votes for Freeloader here since he states that freeloader has not given any defences at the moment when he posted, and looking at the timestamp of his votes, he felt that the rookie bandwagon is senseless. 4th post On June 07 2011 22:02 Kurumi wrote: Remember guys: Lafali and Treadmill,despite approving same things tried to distance eachother. This way,Treadmill is still scum in my eyes. Will write more after I get through this mess. What "things" were they both approving? Treadmill was one of the few people trying to stop that rookie bandwagon. He is questioning one of kurumi’s statements and stating that treadmill was trying to stop the rookie bandwagon. He didn’t provide evidence that treadmill was trying to stop the bandwagon, so I do not know if he did try based off of this post. 5th post On June 08 2011 14:18 Pyo wrote: Show nested quote + Yeah, you're definitely scum. Since you're scum, you aren't approaching it as townie would. If it was a vet that got hit, there's nothing to exploit. no strategies can be used. If it is a medic, then we're in luck and we have options available to us. But if mafia know that we have that medic, then they will go medic hunting. Now it is undoubtedly a good thing for the mafia to not know which one, as it will in the worst case scenario cost them another KP to learn which it is. However, if the person who survived the hit outs themselves, it can be figured out which it is based on their posting. As a townie knowing who survived the hit doesn't benefit us in anyway. Not until next night when the next round of DT checks go out. It's not like their analysis of posting becomes any more accurate or informed. You are wrong, as others have already pointed out. "if the person who survived the hit outs themselves, it can be figured out which it is based on their posting."? How? Mafia already know who it is so they have all of this persons posts to figure his role out, if he makes a post saying "mafia tried to kill me last night", it tells them nothing, while we know their third target. And how does it not benefit us? It helps us as much as knowing who got killed, we get to know who the scum wants to see dead. Trying to keep this secret is very, very scummy. On a related note: I don't know if day/night posts can contain information like this, but couldn't the post about GGQs death mean they used two KPs on him? - Hide Spoiler - On June 08 2011 13:04 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: GGQ was out walking around thinking about the failed lynch. He’d been around the block a few times and was trying to get his thoughts in order for the next day. Suddenly he heard a noise in the bushes, two black figures slipped out. GGQ immediately knew what came next, he’d seen the results many times before. “So this is how it ends?” He asked. His only response was the sinister click of hammers being pulled back. “Well” sighed GGQ laconically, “I’m glad I was thought dangerous enough to kill so early.” Two silenced bullets were his only reply. I know that kind of contradicts the fist part of my post, but in this case Pyo could just be trying to hide the fact they only tried to kill two people. He is challenging Pyo’s stance on the validity of having a vet, if shot once, step out and proclaim his stance. The 2nd half of the post does somewhat contradicts his 1st half as he is suggesting that the story plot stated 2 bullets to indicate that GCQ was shot twice. He uses the story plot to state that Pyo might be hiding something, but doesn’t attack Pyo right away. In all, he has somewhat contributed to the discussions, but haven’t really pressed forwards on anything, besides making the freeloader vote because freeloader did not defend himself. If he was to be given a verdict right now, it would be Town siding unknown because his posts tended to lean towards town-favored actions, but there is no direct effort to prove his stance. [*]Impervious + Show Spoiler + 1st quote Sup guys! I'm just heading out to do something, I'll catch up on everything a bit later tonight. Cheers! This is just a greeting message, as he replaced someone. 2nd quote Alright, I'm back, and I've read the last ~10 pages to try to get myself up to date. I've probably missed something, but I think I have a good idea on what's going on so far. On June 07 2011 04:16 Jackal58 wrote: Impervious???? Bah. Obviouscum. I'll be keeping an eye on you. Scum. Btw - GREEN AND YELLOW!!!!! Ok, now, from what I've seen, I think Jackal's plan is best. I've seen a bunch of "newbie" posts, but that one seriously hinted at finding blues, as well as finding flaws in previously used investigative strategies. While it may be a "newbie" type post, it also answers a question I ask myself whenever I'm looking at someone - Are they acting in the best interest of the town? My gut feeling is "no", even though he has so few posts. And, rather than pick on lurkers for the sake of picking on lurkers (since they'll likely be modkilled at some point), I think our best move at the moment is to lynch rookie44. Well, it seems that Impervious has played with Jackal before, and says he’ll keep an eye on him. He agrees, with Jackal’s analysis of rookie and states that he wants to lynch him based on analysis. His thoughts on the lurkers assumes that the lurkers will lurk and that he is not worried about them. Interpret it anyway you want to, there’s many stances on that. 3rd post On June 07 2011 08:39 rookie44 wrote: There is no more of a meaningful explaination i can give. I will be voting for gtrsrs, not due to an indepth analysis of his posts. But because he talks about town in the 3rd person, which is a very unnatural thing to do. Obviously an indepth analysis would be the best, however there is not much we can go on at this stage, and given that i think any tells will be a metagame failure. I quite like thinking about metagame, and (though obviously this will be biassed) looking at my posts i have been advacating thinking about the longer term when everyone else was discussing the right now. No blue or red would want to stick out like that. I am going to bed now so this is the last of it. (would a mafia give such a poor defence?!!?!?) I used 3rd person in my 2nd post in the thread. And my first post was a "hi" post..... What does that tell you about my alignment? That I'm scum? As for the metagame..... ..... ..... ..... ..... ..... We need to get the best possible lynch RIGHT NOW. Not 5 days from now. The sooner we hit a couple of reds, the better. So we have to do what we can to hit a red RIGHT NOW. Don't worry about the "metagame"..... It is a metaphysical construct which will not directly help in any individual game, as players can actually play against said "metagame". Here, he is saying why planning for the long time is wrong, and indicates that he is playing for the town since the town cannot afford to lets potential scums not get lynched. 4th post On June 07 2011 08:51 Treadmill wrote: I absolutely don't buy the "hunting for blues" nonsense on rookie44. I don't see at all how what he's been saying could lead to blues revealing themselves - one of the people voting for him should lay out the case a bit better. Show nested quote + Point by point: 1. Irrelevant. And battle.net mafia is EXTREMELY different from this. 2. No, he isn't asking people to post their roles. He's asking what people think good strategy for blues would be - which is a reasonable question from town and even more sensible for a blue poster. 3. Alternately, he's honestly a newbie asking experienced players what they think we should be doing. 4. Or, he's giving his reason, as a townie, for asking. The "analysis" is bullshit. This is bandwagonning at its WORST. If this was a day 2 or later lynch, I'd expect something more convincing. But it's not. If you have a better idea, I'd like to hear it. Here, Impervious is stating that the reasoning that treadmill puts up front has merit, but isn’t convincing enough to change any stances around rookie. He asks treadmill for better ideas, which is fine to do. 5th post ervious Canada. June 07 2011 09:44. Posts 2883 PM Profile Blog Quote # On June 07 2011 09:27 Treadmill wrote: Show nested quote + Almost anyone else would be a better idea. I'm just bothered that wll of a sudden a bunch of people (xkcd, Kurumi, Senj) are jumping on voting for a guy, a handful of hours before the lynch. Especially considering: Senj is a lurker who's posted the bare minimum to be considered active amazingxkcd who's posted a whole lot of nothing - his only contributions have been posting one-liners about why other people's ideas are bad Kurumi - who's been posting a lot, and insanely aggressively, and accusing everyone flat-out of being scum, but when he decides who to vote for he posts a chort and uncertain post wihtout really explaining. It just seems like the analysis is a lot worse on this case than it has been on a bunch of others - but a couple people started voting for him and set a bandwagon rolling. As for scummiest posts, I still haven't seen anything to top this: Hide nested quote - On June 06 2011 14:21 freeloader625 wrote: It's true. I spent most of the weekend watching MLG, both streams. I was keeping an eye on this for all mirror matches though, I just chose not to comment. On June 06 2011 12:54 CjrNinja wrote: I can't confirm what the actual role PM said for mafia members. But looking back through this thread I did find: On May 30 2011 01:33 Varpulis wrote: On May 30 2011 00:34 blackone wrote: On May 29 2011 06:47 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: PMs PMs are not allowed in this game. This confuses me because from the other Mafia threads I read I feel that PMs are a pretty important part of the game. In particular, how is the scum supposed to operate without PMs? To clarify: The no PMs rule does not apply to scum. They are still allowed to communicate outside of the thread. Town aligned and third party roles must keep everything inside the thread, however, for the sake of balance and to keep the game fun for everybody. So it's already been addressed during the signup stage. Freeloader was probably just lazy and didn't read through the entire thread. Yes, I'm ashamed to admit I let pages 2-8 or 9 go without reading it, I assumed it was all just full of "/in's." I only read the first post and posts since the game has officially started. On June 06 2011 13:17 DeMorcerf wrote: On June 06 2011 12:47 Treadmill wrote: + Show Spoiler + Since then, he hasn't posted in the thread at all. And I can confirm that he's been on TL - check his post history, he's posted a whole bunch in today's MLG live report. Either he's scum and waiting for suspicion to die down or he's town and has given up and resigned himself to getting lynched. Or he simply cannot extract himself from the excitement that is MLG, I know I couldn't for most of this weekend. I think that the reasoning that has come forth from some of the experienced players should convince us to leave freeloader for now and concentrate on others --- I agree with Alderan's suspicions of Amazingxkcd (posts that just repeat the description of the game) and Grush57 (confusing contradictions) and the strange hasty back and forth behavior of Jimboo pointed out by TranceStorm. On June 06 2011 11:43 redFF wrote: + Show Spoiler + qft -___________- I quote this to point of that redFF's only post in the game is just this one-liner spam. Perhaps he is too busy in his other mafia game to contribute something more useful to his post, but then he should have waited until he had more time to post. Ohhh dirtay! I didn't not realize outside posts were fair game for this! I was under the impression (initially) that you can't click on ppls profiles/outside posts to avoid cheating or w/e. But I guess that's fair game. What do I honestly think and why haven't I really commented even though I threw myself under the bus? I'll give a longer explanation come closer to Day 1's end. Har har har, another "bad defensive" post by me :D Take it as you may. That reeks of inexperienced townie to me, not scum..... Impervious states that freeloader is just inexperienced, rather than scummy, but does not addresses anything else. 6th post On June 07 2011 09:35 Treadmill wrote: Another interesting point: Jackal58 makes his case against rookie44, it's pretty weak, the people posting aren't convinced. Nobody but him votes for rookie44. Then an hour later Show nested quote + Show nested quote + Show nested quote + Look at the time stamps, within 3 minutes of each other. And none of them posted for 2 hours previous to bandwagonning rookie. It looks liek co-ordination. I didn't notice this. Nice catch. I'm re-thinking my position right now. Will post when I think it through. He thanks treadmill on his observations surrounding the timing issues that my vote and the others had. This can be convincing that I may or may not be mafia, but at least he is willing to consider the issue. 6th post Lol, then don't vote for him if you think there's a 10% chance of him being scum, since a purely random lynch is 20. He just points out a mistake made by alderan’s decision on rookie, showing probabilities. If Impervious is a townie, then Alderan becomes more suspicious since voting on a 20% lynch is more pro-town than a 10% lynch. 7th post Ok, I thought it through looking at a variety of different situations, and I believe that we need to push for a lynch of one of those 3, rather than rookie. Why? Because, it's likely that all 3 (or 2 of them) are mafia, based on the timing (and assuming that rookie is town and we have 2 or so vigis in the game). When that one flips, here's the outcomes: Scum - We get vigis to hit one or both of the others overnight. Early knockdown to 3KP for the mafia. Town - We get a vigi to hit rookie as an insurance policy for switching (although we can argue the merit of this move overnight, and should rookie turn out to be red, Treadmill would be a decent policy lynch tomorrow because of how hard he's been defending). So, if we're going to hit one of them, we need to pick the scummiest one, in case it's a freak accident that they all voted at the same time like that. And we've gotta do it quick (I'm gone in ~1 hr). Basically, if we switch - in the worst case scenario we give our vigis a good target tonight, and best case, we hit 2 or 3 mafia. Pretty damn good first lynch/night imo. Now, I asked myself "have they been acting in the best interest of the town?", and the one that really stood out as a "no" was xkcd, so I'd agree with a switch to him right now. So, I'm changing my vote. ##Vote: amazingxkcd He starts to lay out possible courses of actions for the town to do, based on whether rookie gets lynched or not. He then changes his vote to me (T_T im townie dammit), but only based it on that I have not been acting in the best interest of the town.( I still throw in that I am a townie (Mafia knows that too), and I have been trying to figure out everyone’s influence to help me play this game). I try to argue his change of vote as weak and feeble. 8th post On June 07 2011 10:16 iGrok wrote: Hide nested quote - On June 07 2011 10:13 Impervious wrote: Ok, I thought it through looking at a variety of different situations, and I believe that we need to push for a lynch of one of those 3, rather than rookie. Why? Because, it's likely that all 3 (or 2 of them) are mafia, based on the timing (and assuming that rookie is town and we have 2 or so vigis in the game). When that one flips, here's the outcomes: Scum - We get vigis to hit one or both of the others overnight. Early knockdown to 3KP for the mafia. Town - We get a vigi to hit rookie as an insurance policy for switching (although we can argue the merit of this move overnight, and should rookie turn out to be red, Treadmill would be a decent policy lynch tomorrow because of how hard he's been defending). So, if we're going to hit one of them, we need to pick the scummiest one, in case it's a freak accident that they all voted at the same time like that. And we've gotta do it quick (I'm gone in ~1 hr). Basically, if we switch - in the worst case scenario we give our vigis a good target tonight, and best case, we hit 2 or 3 mafia. Pretty damn good first lynch/night imo. Now, I asked myself "have they been acting in the best interest of the town?", and the one that really stood out as a "no" was xkcd, so I'd agree with a switch to him right now. So, I'm changing my vote. ##Vote: amazingxkcd which 3? On June 07 2011 09:35 Treadmill wrote: Another interesting point: Jackal58 makes his case against rookie44, it's pretty weak, the people posting aren't convinced. Nobody but him votes for rookie44. Then an hour later Hide nested quote - On June 07 2011 06:28 Kurumi wrote: ##unvote ##vote: Rookie44 Hide nested quote - On June 07 2011 06:29 Senj wrote: ##vote: Rookie44 Hide nested quote - On June 07 2011 06:31 amazingxkcd wrote: ##VOTE: Rookie44 Look at the time stamps, within 3 minutes of each other. And none of them posted for 2 hours previous to bandwagonning rookie. It looks liek co-ordination. I was in the middle of writing up something a little more in depth on why I chose xkcd, but my "1 hr" has turned into "5 minutes". I've switched my vote, and I hope some others do the same. It's not that I think rookie is a bad lynch, it's just that I think this lynch will give us more info, and if I'm wrong, we got rid of a really negative townie (which can end up derailing us in the later stages of the game). PS, if they all show up as town, as does Treadmill, then you guys HAVE to lynch me. Not doing so would be completely suicidal..... This is a mistake, lynching for information, rather than based on strength of cases. His last sentence indicates that he feels uncomfortable about his decisions. Personally, I would have stated that rookie get DT checked rather than be hit because of the fact that this is a rookie game and players are not going to be that good regardless. 9th post Damnit. I saw it too when I went over your posts again..... Sorry rookie. Also, I'd like to voice my opinion of "using our KP early" due to the loss of our medics. While it sucks to lose both, some games don't have medics, or medics are bad/inactive/unlucky and are essentially no better than another townie, and the game is still far from over. It might suck for a vigi to die without using his power, but it's better he doesn't use it than he uses it badly. He apologizes of attacking rookie and recognizes his mistake. Then, he talks about the various scenarios where the roles of blues are affected by the player strengths and weaknesses. 10th post On June 07 2011 21:36 35spike1 wrote: Hide nested quote - On June 07 2011 21:25 supersoft wrote: On June 07 2011 18:52 Jackal58 wrote: Shit. Sorry Rookie. And no. I am not the best player in this game. If you have that in your head flush it out now. I already said I suck on day 1 and 2. I made a case. I was wrong. All I can do is move on. i told you guys that it was stupid. we should have someone inactive get hanged. that mediclynch was either retarded or done by the mafia. if the mafia stood behind that, i think they wanted to draw attention from their newby-member freeload. he would have been lynched if rookie wasn't... i am not sure about that, but it might be. i also don't buy the "i am bad the first two days" thing. from now on noone should trust these accusations against newby player just because they ask something related to how the mafiatalk works or what strategy may be used... arguments for lynching someone should be based on his votings and his accusations Everybody is bad during the first few days, we don't have enough content to get anything solid. Jackal is stll in the clear IMO. He just got unlucky, and everybody jumped on it. The weird thing is, why did everyone jump on it? I'm not sure. Early on, there was some momentum against freeloader, and that completely shifted from a single post. We may be able to look back at today's vote to nail some scum, or it could mean absolutely nothing at all. However, we won't know until after we nail some more scum, so there's no point in worrying about it too much right now. These types of swings don't have to be influenced by the mafia. He is just responding as to why the bandwagon shifted happened. 11th post On June 07 2011 21:28 35spike1 wrote: Show nested quote + It's combined, 72 hours in total for posting. I looked through Lafali's posts and none of them had any content/names... Are all the medics gone now or is there probably one left? I'd assume that we have none (although it's completely possible that we started with 4 medics). The reason for that is that we can't really have them stack saves anymore (assuming 1 or 2 live), so if the mafia want someone dead, it'll happen. We may get lucky and they end up saving someone still, but I wouldn't count on it. Obviously, if there are any DTs out there (in this setup, it's possible that there are none), do not roleclaim yet. You're going to have to assume that there's noone there to protect you. But leave us some clues based on what you find, so that we can find something in case you end up dying. He states that the DTs are becoming more powerful since the medics count drastically went down, and gives them words of advice. Very pro-town behavior. 12th post On June 08 2011 00:37 Xedat wrote: I want to remind everyone that it is night, don't post anything too critical or it will influence the mafia's hits. If you are concerned that you might die save your post for the last few minutes before day. Agreed. However, we should probably try to stir up some decision for any blues that are unsure of what to do. We've probably got 2+ DTs who have to check someone, and 2+ vigis who may be itching to hit scum tonight. And it's still possible that we have a medic. If we have a medic left, there's a few people I'd suggest saving. One would be myself (obviously :D), another would be treadmill, a third would be freeloader, and a fourth would be Jackal. Jackal has this uncanny ability to either be very, very right in his analysis, or very, very wrong in his analysis, so losing him wouldn't be great, as long as we can figure out if he's right or wrong. iGrok isn't a bad choice either. There's a few people who should be high priority vigi targets. amazingxkcd is definitely my #1 choice, but jimbooo wouldn't be a bad target either. senj or kurumi instead of xkcd wouldn't be a bad choice either. As for DT checks, I wouldn't recommend xkcd, senj and kurumi right now. If xkcd gets killed tonight (or one of the other two instead), we'll have 2 people as good lynch targets if he flips red, and it's hardly better than a blind guess if he flips green, so it's not really worth a check right now. Voting for the same person at the same time like that is really wierd, and I can't help but think that it's coordinated. My bad if I'm wrong, but it just looks soooooo bad..... So it would be a big waste of a DT check imo. As for who to actually check - I'm not too sure. There's quite a few good people to check, I just wanted to point out some obviously bad ones to check. So, if you want to argue any part this with me, or have anything to add, now's the time to do it. He expands upon his notions of DT checks, making suggestions for bad one and postulating who might the good ones be (Don’t kill me please T_T, vigi!). 13th post Treadmill - he tried to get everyone to switch away from rookie, and I've been getting a pretty solid town vibe from him the entire game. He's not someone I want to die right now. Freeloader - there's definitely uncertainty here. But I have a reason for wanting him alive tomorrow. Jackal - He's really good at analysis when he's tunneled someone. He may not always be on the right track, but he brings up some good points, and is easily able to start discussions, which are good for the town. I don't know whether he's scum or not yet, but for now, he can definitely be useful to the town. He's one of the people I'd want to check as DT, to make sure he's on my side, but, if he is scum, he's likely the GF, so a DT check would actually be pretty useless anyways. He lists 3 people whom he has opinions of. He seems to trust treadmill, but I will want to wait to see what treadmill brings up later to confirm his behavior model. He is uncertain on freeloader, but why does he want to keep him alive? Finally, someone other than me suspects jackal of being the GF (I list details in Jackal’s analysis). 14th post I was just throwing out suggestions of who I'd want to see alive tomorrow. I don't see any really, really obvious people, but these are some decent choices, for a variety of reasons. Also, if someone trying to draw attention away from a blue is scummy, then I think we've got different mindsets. I really didn't want to go into this much detail, because this may end up swaying the decision of the mafia. -_- He’s afraid of the mafia changing decisions because of what he has to say. Pro-town vibe coming to me here. 15th post And, ironically, your best scum read ever has come while you were scum. Well, he continues to confirm my theory on Jackal being Godfather. 16th post Ok, so, now that it's daytime, I'd like to ask everyone to do something simple for me, before we start discussing anything more serious. I'd like to know what guides/games you have read, as well as what games you have played. Just take like 10 seconds to post a quick list plz. If you've played in a few already, I know you're well exposed to TL Mafia. I'm asking for this information I want to get a feeling for how well adjusted our "newbie" players will be. I'm pretty sure that this may prove useful to us in the future. I wanted to ask it during the previous day, but I showed up pretty late for the party. I am not happy with this statement. He is wanting to ask who are the noobs, but all the noobs should know that they have coaches they can refer to if they want to. I understand his reasonings behind it, but I feel that It was unnecessary to do so. 17th post On June 08 2011 21:42 iGrok wrote: Haven't read it yet, but I'm going to go ahead and nominate Treadmill for the "Best Rookie (no pun intended) Award". Hats off to you, doing analysis like a boss, standing up for what you think, and making really good reads on people (like the aforementioned Rookie). Seconded. Holy crap man. I expected some good things from you, but this is definitely above and beyond. Whether right or wrong, that's one hell of an analysis. Ok, so, just in case some of you missed it, I'd like to quote myself. On June 08 2011 13:12 Impervious wrote: Ok, so, now that it's daytime, I'd like to ask everyone to do something simple for me, before we start discussing anything more serious. I'd like to know what guides/games you have read, as well as what games you have played. Just take like 10 seconds to post a quick list plz. If you've played in a few already, I know you're well exposed to TL Mafia. I'm asking for this information I want to get a feeling for how well adjusted our "newbie" players will be. I'm pretty sure that this may prove useful to us in the future. I wanted to ask it during the previous day, but I showed up pretty late for the party. And thanks to those of you who have answered already. He congratulates treadmill on being able to make a good analysis. @Treadmill, I UNDERSTAND YOUR ACCUSATIONS AND ANALYSIS OF ME, AND I JUST WANT TO SAY GOOD JOB. HOWEVER, I KNOW THAT YOU ARE WRONG ON ALMOST EVERYTHING IN YOUR ANALYSIS, BUT I AM NOT GOING TO LABEL YOU AS SCUM MATERIAL YET. 18th post EDWOP: I don't accuse Impervious of being scum,but that's kind of fishing. Mafia already has info advantage,don't give more info they don't need. Impervious,that's horrible idea to say everything about Yourself. We are dead sure there's at least one experienced player in Mafia team who'll look into people's meta and try to deduce if they bare the same role this game. I want to see if they're accustomed to the style of Mafia that TL plays. It's very different from the type you'll find on battle.net, which has become pretty common. Plus, I am kind of fishing with this data. I want to go back and see if there's some scumslips based on what people don't know. Hey, he states that he is fishing with the data he receives. I would agree since it is a noobie game, and we can conclude based on previous experience. 19th post ve seen a bunch of things that are pretty questionable, depending on what the player knows/doesn't know. I want to find out for sure by referencing the specific post and what knowledge the players have. If something is out of whack, I'll bring it up. Extensions of ideas from 18th post. In all, Impervious seems to be playing for a cautious playstyle. He has voted for me once because my actions seems a bit scummy (they don’t, mind you), and the vibe I get from him is pro-town. Verdict on him is: Townie [*] amazingxkcd + Show Spoiler + If you want information about me, go look at treadmill’s analysis of me. It’s a good read, but it is almost completely wrong. I give myself a verdict as: BAD-ASS 6-pack 400 APM TOWNIE HERO [*]cherubael + Show Spoiler + 1st post On June 05 2011 13:35 aprudds wrote: Hide nested quote - On June 05 2011 12:44 freeloader625 wrote: Omg I'm so excited for this. I read all the rules twice and just want to ask to anyone willing to answer (before the game starts) since these were not answered in the thread rules: 1) Since PMs are not allowed, how would mafia communicate with each other? 2) Once someone dies whether it be by votes or mafia hit, will their roles be revealed? Thanks and GL everyone! (I've only played SC2 Mafia before and got hooked) Hmm, a bit suspicious no? Right when the PM are getting sent out too. Scum slip? A bit of a bold accusation, I would say. However, I do have to agree, the first question does look a bit suspicious. After all, a townie would have *no* reason to ask such a question, as they can't PM anyway. He states that the accusation that aprudds makes is bold, but agrees since freeloader’s questions indicate that he really didn’t read the thread. 2nd post On June 05 2011 14:06 freeloader625 wrote: Show nested quote + All I can say is, all too often the first one to speak is "put on trial." Sleep on it. So...you asked a question so you could be lynched day one...alright...that makes sense. (note the sarcasm) Either you give a legitimate, straight reason to ask this sort of question as townie, or you clearly are just trying to save your butt after having messed and shown your role as mafia. Also, Aril, you seem to be very quick in defending him, while not wanting to accuse anyone. Are you afraid your role will be too obvious if you accuse someone? Also, what reason do you have to defend him? What has he done for you? The only reason would be because you are both mafia, and you are trying to look out for him. He pressures Aril to respond to his defense of freeloader, and continues to believes that freeloader is scummish. 3rd post Defending people in this situation isn't wrong. There is a suspicious atmosphere floating around everyone and half of us are townies so you know what I mean, we want to get some conversation out here so we can actual get a good look at what a everyone's saying, and it only hurts the town if they're afraid everything they say is going to get them falsely accused. We shouldn't all gang up on people right away and if we do then I'll be on the defending side until they make their case and I can make my own reasonable judgement. This post gives me conflicting vibes. He accuses freeloader of being scummish and others who defend freeloader, but then states that he will defend the accused until they are proven guilty. I am really confused and this is giving scummy vibes to me, as the last 2 posts were pro-town vibes. 4th post This and the comment on the inactivelist is the only relevant information 35spike1 has posted. This leaves him off the list, but he seems to have nothing relevant to say. This seems a little suspicious, so I think that keeping an eye on him would be a good idea, though I wouldn't say he's scum...yet. This post really means nothing. Its still too early into the game to make an inactive list and he puts suspicion on 35spike1 for making a stupid list. After freeloader’s case was forgotten, he didn’t talk at all. He just left the game way too early to me, and is on lurker status right now. I normally am more suspicious of lurkers due to their nature, so the verdict on cherubael is [B]SCUMMISH Unknown since his first posts were ok, but then it gets weirder. | ||
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amazingxkcd
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + 1st post First time playing this game on TL although I've played plenty of the SC2 version. Personally, I don't think anyone is really that suspicious yet except freeloader625 for his questions. Isn't it more likely that mafia are lurking than townies, so latching onto other random posts and picking out the smallest details seems kinda pointless, and just gets us paranoid at each other. NOOB ALERT! NOOB ALERT! IMPERVIOUS, HERE YOU GO! But seriously, this is ridiculously scummy because he is trying to avoid confrontations on the basis of finer details. 2nd post On June 07 2011 09:35 Treadmill wrote: Another interesting point: Jackal58 makes his case against rookie44, it's pretty weak, the people posting aren't convinced. Nobody but him votes for rookie44. Then an hour later Show nested quote + Show nested quote + Show nested quote + Look at the time stamps, within 3 minutes of each other. And none of them posted for 2 hours previous to bandwagonning rookie. It looks liek co-ordination. Also check Senj, for the bandwagoning on Rookie. Clear Lurker here, given the timestamp differences between his two posts. He wants a check on Senj just because of the timestamp vote case. 3rd post Could've been a Veteran that got hit? Otherwise someone probably got a lucky heal (seems unlikely though) Maybe a vet got hit, maybe a medic saved someone. We don’t know yet, so don’t state the obvious. We have a lurker, a person who didn’t contribute at all to anything, but his posts are too ambigious. His verdict is SCUMMISH Unknown [*] 35spike1 + Show Spoiler + 1st post On June 06 2011 07:36 supersoft wrote: okay I didn't know I have to vote... sorry for that. But since I have to, I voted monsterDrakar. I voted for him because he voted against theawesomeall with a poor reason. I think theawesomeall -with his list - is obviously a scary player for mafiosi and other people that don't want to be in the spotlight. At first, I was a bit shocked too, when I saw my name at the lurkerlist. But now I think it's the right move to really start this. So I think monsterDrakar is scum and wants to undermine the credibility of someone who puts some facts on the table. We don't need an inactive list at all. Inactives will get mod-killed soon enough. It's also too early for a lurkerlist, considering we're only a day in. Speaking of which, how much time is left in this day? Can you vote during the night? That part wasn't included by Jackal. Just answering a question about lurker lists. Then he asks a question about voting in the night. There is nothing to indicate his position here. 2nd post Kurumi looks fine to me. Mafia tend to lay low and bandwagon, Kurumi is definitely fearless for Mafia. On June 06 2011 05:37 Kurumi wrote: Show nested quote + Asking questions, its been a bit since he last posted an opinion of his own (aside from other people are "Rats"). Nothing really here.+ Show Spoiler [Tiny supersoft read here] + He isn't lurking, he's just been demolishing half the potential mafia population. Show nested quote + This is actually a very interesting post. As you can see, Kurumi is mis-representing both Lafali and Treadmill. Neither of them "advocate mis-lynches", they simply stated that a mislynch was ok, and even probable. Neither of them are anti-town, and Treadmill is actually playing pro-town. They were happy to vote for someone as soon as they were accused. FreeLoader had barely done anything, yet they were both happy to destroy him. Freeloader will probably now die if you look at the Voting Thread. If he turns up town, I'd be very suspicious of those two. He defends Kurumi by stating that Kurumi’s behavior is to aggressive for him to be mafia. He then puts suspicion on Lafali and treadmill (Lafali flipped scum), so he was somewhat correct here. 3rd post I had a quick read-through of the early posts and Treadmill grabbed my attention. + Show Spoiler + Treadmill is rather relaxed about voting at first, but within 2 hours he's all ready to go and vote against FreeLoader. After seeing several people agree, he eagerly jumps on the bandwagon. + Show Spoiler + Treadmill's jumping at whatever reason he can to revote against Freeloader. With 7 votes up against him, I'm not surprised his main concern was getting lynched day1. More investigation into treadmill, backs it up with more evidence and theories. Treadmill has already been noted by many people, so suspicion pileups is making Treadmill seem scummish. 4th post On June 06 2011 17:49 CjrNinja wrote: 35spike1 + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + Can you please explain to me what it was that made you change your mind in the time between you making those two posts? I was really excited at the start of the game so I kinda jumped in lol, later I realized something like what Freeloader did would just be too obvious to be Mafia. He defends himself for CjrNinja for being too dumb about freeloader’s position and apologizes about it. 5th post I voted Treadmill, reasoning here. He gives the reasons why he voted for treadmill. The reasoning is not the strongest, but given its day 1, it is well based to make the appropriate case. 6th post On June 07 2011 21:03 monsterDrakar wrote: Well he was either overlooked or the rules mean that you need to have just 1 post for day1 and night1 combined. That's my interpretation of "day/night cycle" at least. It's combined, 72 hours in total for posting. I looked through Lafali's posts and none of them had any content/names... Are all the medics gone now or is there probably one left? He is simply responding to monsterdrakar and comfirming lafali’s posts being scummy. 7th post Everybody is bad during the first few days, we don't have enough content to get anything solid. Jackal is stll in the clear IMO. He just got unlucky, and everybody jumped on it. The weird thing is, why did everyone jump on it? He states that its hard to pick good lynches early in the game, but doesn’t know about the bandwagonning (HINT: JACKAL IS GODFATHER, UH OH!) 8th post For all blues skimming the thread, this last paragraph is VERY IMPORTANT On June 07 2011 21:03 monsterDrakar wrote: Obviously, if there are any DTs out there (in this setup, it's possible that there are none), do not roleclaim yet. You're going to have to assume that there's noone there to protect you. But leave us some clues based on what you find, so that we can find something in case you end up dying. As obvious as this might be, we can't risk any screw ups. Just reiterating Impervious’s post about DTs needing to keep hiding. Makes sense from a town stand point. 9th post This is my very first game Had a read of the first Day/Night of How to Improve: Mafia XXX Analysis Checked out some general information Read a very small portion (8 pages?) of a recent game, just for the feel of it. Giving mafia history to Impervious. This is a bit gullible because Impervious later stated that he was fishing for experience. Spike should take more care to questions like that next time. 10th post I don't understand what happened. 2 kills? Mafia has 3 KP. Does this mean they 2shot GGQ in case he was vet? 3 Medics seems unlikely. This also means no vigis took shots first night. He’s confused about why only two people died. We can spectulate for so long about the possibilities, but until people come forward with more information, we can’t say much about it. In all, 35Spike1 has been playing like a cautious player here, seems a bit afraid to really attack and accuse anyone, but he has not been playing like a scum either. Verdict is TOWNIE [*] Alderan + Show Spoiler + 1st post @Vain Now he is stating that a townie does have reasons to ask such a question what is indeed true. The interesting part of this post is at the second line. He is now telling us "dont mind me, i'm new to the game" and diverting attention off him. Telling you are new and therefore if are doing things out of the ordinary its just your inexperience is at the best not very good town play. If he is indeed as inexperienced as he would have us believe it is safe to assume that he is not familiar with good town play to begin with. Combine that with your assessment that The question itself was not very scummy indeed. If i were a scum i would pm it to the host instead of posting it in the thread. and he looks a lot like a misguided town. Making a statement that Freeloader is just a misguided town noobie. 2nd post n June 06 2011 01:08 Jimbooo wrote: I accidentally posted my last post without finishing , sorry. Im not sure if freeloader was TRYING to be suspicious with his last post , but after thinking it through I think he is probably just new. That small amount of evidence got a discussion started , but I think people also voted slightly hastily. It looks very suspicious that so many people voted for freeloader right after he was accused. I agree. Granted any veteran scum would never post a vote that quickly in my opinion but if we're going to start anywhere that seems a good place as any, especially considering there are a lot of first timers in this game. Agreeing with the statement that Jimbooo made with the freeloader case, then adding that newbies would do this kind of thing rather than veteran players. 3rd post I do not understand what you mean by this, sorry. Can you clarify whether "insane" is a good thing or a bad thing in this context; and what does "tunnel the roster" mean? Accusing everyone in the game of being scum is generally not a good thing. It does not, as a fact. Kind of obvious to say that, but hey it’s a noobie game, so you can say it. 4th post On June 06 2011 02:56 amazingxkcd wrote: It is quite clear that it can be seen who are the main talkers for both side. The only question is now how to distinguish between the two sides and how to act upon it It is posts like this (especially for your first post) that we are trying to avoid. All you did in this post was state the premise of the game, and make a likely incorrect assumption that there are mafia among the "main talkers" this early in the game. Very very scummy post. Yes, it was a scummy post, I did that on purpose to see who would respond to it and why. Your response is more of a town-like behavior, so I got some info on you. I could have said something better, I will give you that. 5th post On June 06 2011 03:38 amazingxkcd wrote: Show nested quote + interesting first post there, all ready trying to set up accustation upon me for supposedly making a scummy post when in reality i am only simply making observation. You already got into my list of suspicious people by derailing a innocent first post when we still have around 30+ hours left to figure out each other. Pretty defensive considering all I said was that those are posts we are trying to avoid in exchange for more constructive ones. The post was scummy, but that doesn't mean you are scum. Playing it smart here, good for you. That was an another bait post to see more of your reaction, and you confirmed more of my thoughts. 6th post Here's a list of a couple people who seem to be acting a little scummy. (Not saying for sure scum, just people that might not be) Lets get some meaningful conversation going. Amazingxkcd I've already kind of voiced this opinion but I'm going to expound upon my earlier analysis. Let's look at his posts. It is quite clear that it can be seen who are the main talkers for both side. The only question is now how to distinguish between the two sides and how to act upon it This post, obviously vague, of little help to the town, and posted directly after he appeared on TheAwesomeAll's “Lurker List”. When I pointed out this was a fishy post he responded with this: interesting first post there, all ready trying to set up accustation upon me for supposedly making a scummy post when in reality i am only simply making observation. You already got into my list of suspicious people by derailing a innocent first post when we still have around 30+ hours left to figure out each other. Obviously immediately went on the defensive, turned and pointed a finger at me, and suggest that the town take its time “figuring each other out” instead of having discussion that is inherently pro-town. In fact his only “contribution” to town discussion was this post: Please refer to these guides on playing TL mafia. For town: aidnai, GMarshal For mafia: bumatlarge, chaos13 LSB's Newbie Guide Mafiascum Newbie Guide Introduction to Mafia (Flash) Ver's town guide Ace's Mafia Manifesto Qatol's Town Guide So his only contribution to the town is copying and pasting something that is in the third post of this thread? Interesting. Grush57 This is an example of someone who is acting scummy, but who could be just a really bad townie. Not advising we use our first lynch on him but its someone to look out for (maybe DT check?). Here's why: First, without posting anything in the thread he immediately voted for Freeloader. Could definitely be viewed as a rookie maf move. When called out about it he failed to respond. In fact he did not contribute anything to the thread until the inactive list to which he responded: Im not inactive, I just dont feel like anybody can accuse this early. Wait? What? After blindly bandwagon voting not even 4 hours into the game? Inconsistency tends to be a maf trait. When called out he responded: Yea true, I stupidly joined the bandwagon to lynch freeloader from his posts. Again, Wait? What?! A little later when calling out omgCRAZY he posts this gem, his third post. Says the person with only 1 post so far? OmgCRAZY had posted several times..... More to come tomorrow. Would love to hear what everyone thinks. Here, you offer analysis of your thoughts and the critical thing you did is that you waited to make a decision, rather than go right away. A lot of people made many errors by not doing this. Post 7-8 are not related to the game, so I disregarded it. 9th post On June 06 2011 15:18 iGrok wrote: Jackal58 is good. GGQ is good, borderline very good (no offense Jackal ♥). Vain is good. I'd like to think I'm decent. Impervious is... interesting haha. Kurumi has played 3 games, and Jackal called him out later on. Whats important here is that Kurumi lumps himself in with very good players that town should listen to. He's attempting to establish a position of power for himself. On June 06 2011 16:55 iGrok wrote: Personally, I think Jackal58, GGQ, or Vain would be great people to look up to and have confidence in - they're all pretty experienced and -good- players. Whomever among them we can confirm/be reasonably certain is town should be looked up to. Is this a mistype or are you getting legitimate town reads from all 3 of those players? If, as you said in your first post, yourself, Jackal, GGQ, and Vain are the experienced players, so it is safe to assume that at least one would have been placed with the mafia, particularly in a noobie game. I think a couple seem to be acting suspicious, but it's day 1 and that could be for multiple reasons. Also, I'm going to ahead and voting for amazingxkcd, just in case something happens to me at work today and I won't be able to get a vote in. @ amazingkcd, I'm really just waiting on you to refute the analysis I did earlier. His analysis of me was a bit weak, comparing to treadmill’s analysis of me. I believe that he should have held your vote since there were other stronger cases developing and the case against me only opened after some scum noticed the time laspses and pressured me. I gave him an analysis, and this analysis also counts towards that. Post 11 has to do with smurfing, not related to the game. 12th post On June 07 2011 02:53 iGrok wrote: Show nested quote + Ok, yeah that makes a lot more sense. Yeah, I'm starting to see how Kurumi could be a townie, but I could also see him as a scum who felt the pressure and is trying to change his tune. I still don't thing he should be lynched today. I'm trying to think of who should be, but I really don't know :/ But you agree that it shouldn't be freeloader? Here, he is asking iGrok for some advice, meaning that he places trust in iGrok as a fellow member. I have explained that iGrok is a townie, so this helps in the fact that he also feels that iGrok is a townie so I can feel more confident in Alderan’s decision. Post 13 just welcomes Impervious into the game, nothing related with the game itself. 14th post On June 07 2011 05:47 TranceStorm wrote: Show nested quote + Would you mind doing a post-by-post analysis of rookie44's posts? (There are only 3) Right now I can't really see how subtly he is fishing for blues. After all, we don't know how experienced he really is, so I would like a little more clarification as to your accusation. Wait so you're saying instead of voting for new players being dumb you suggest us to vote for a player who has never played before on the forums (admittedly so) for suggesting that veteran players toss out potential strategies? Sure it's a LITTLE scummy, but until I see some elaboration on your "very subtle in fishing for blues" I'm going to have to disagree with you. His reasoning to disagree with trancestorm is justified, but I feel that it is a bit hasty since trancestorm is probably inexperienced in dissecting posts apart. Post 15 is an EBWOP, disregard, Post 16 is him believing that trancestorm’s analysis is a bit weak, nothing much to discuss there. In all, Alderan has made some slip ups, but there is nothing clear to indicate that he is of scummish material, but there is no direct proof he isn’t. His postings have been a bit basic, but he did make some good analysis, so verdict is TOWN SIDING UNKOWN | ||
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amazingxkcd
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + 1st post It is a good spot, aprudds. We should keep an eye on freeloader625. Jimbooo, we do have to lynch somebody. Being "hasty" isn't really a concern. And somebody with next to no evidence against them is a better lynch than everyone else with no evidence against them at all. Still, 48 hours yet. Or you can wait for another 30 hours, once cases developed more. Very scummish materials here. 2nd post As I said earlier, "we should keep an eye on Freeloader". But that's it. There will certainly be much more conversation before the end of the first day. A few thoughts: There are 8 mafia but do we know how much killing power they have? If 6 normally get 3 kills/night would it be sensible to extrapolate that 8 get 4? Where did the number 6 come from? Unless he had some experience playing as mafia before, I do not see where 6 came from. He also forgets about lynching someone with little info when he reiterates his “keep eye” part. 3rd post On June 05 2011 15:24 omgCRAZY wrote: That is true. I have only looked over one other Mafia game so I don't have a lot of experience if players vote and unvote a lot over the course of a day or not, after the few responses we got from Freelancer265 I did do an EBWOP saying how his subsequent responses added to his suspicion. Either this should be linked in the first few posts or people should start saying what their acronyms mean when they first use them. They only make things faster if they're understood. And yeah - freeloader's first post was only mildly suspicious (although it was mildly suspicious) but his subsequent ones were rather more so. Also, he's probably still online and they're currently the best we have to go on. So I'm gonna vote but change in the next 24 hours or so if someone more suspicious comes up. I suspect that most of the mafia are gonna be trying to lay low, post only "check-in" posts and whatnot. So keep your eyes peeled for that sort of thing - although, early on, that kinda posting might just mean its midnight and people want to go to bed (so gtsrs and 35spike1 are off the hook for now). Huh, the nature of the posts are starting to become even more scummy. Freeloader’s first post seems only a bit suspicious, but why then vote already? Kurumi was rampaging, we still had people who didn’t vote yet, and he picks freeloader to vote for. He states that mafia are going to make “check-in” posts to seem active, and makes gtrsrs and 35spike1 seem like accomplices. 4th post On June 05 2011 15:36 iGrok wrote: Those people who have already voted are acting too hastily. Is it really too hasty if you plan on (probably) changing your vote? I'm honestly asking. Also, you sound like you're aomewhat experienced, is that right? He seems to think that iGrok has experience playing in these kinds of events but he’s avoiding the fact that iGrok is trying to investigate into him. A bit scummy imo. 5th post On June 05 2011 18:31 Kurumi wrote: Show nested quote + No. Scum wants Town to mislynch. Scum wants Town not to think about other suspects. Scum wants to make Town jump on one bandwagon and deny EVERY discussion about anything else. They are doing that,not only but they're advocating that as a good thing. With regards to the Freeloader situation: a. read the posts. I wasn't advocating mislynching. Lafali, admittedly, somewhat was: On June 05 2011 15:16 Lafali wrote: Show nested quote + His subsequent posts were fishy. Due to that I hopped on the voting bandwagon along with them. Its a 40 player game, I'm sure we can afford a few mislynches. Regardless, we should continue scumhunting. We do have 48 hours. b. As far as "not thinking about other suspects" there WERE no other suspects, this was page one and noone else seemed remotely scummy. c. there wasn't discussion about anything else and nobody was stopping anybody from talking about anything. So freeloader got accused on questionable evidence, and then defended himself in a somewhat suspicious fashion. So a couple of noobies (myself included) voted for him early on. And the Kurumi comes in and makes up shit about what we're doing that has only a grain of truth in it, and treats myself and Lafali (who both voted for freeloader) as proven scum based on 2 and 4 posts (or so). Then, later, Vain posts + Show Spoiler + pointing out that Kurumi's being silly so Kurumi replies with On June 06 2011 00:27 Kurumi wrote: @Vain Let aprudds defend himself. which is dumb because a. nobody was talking about aprudds - his only relation was that he had been suspicious of freeloader (presumably Kurumi meant me or Lafali, but why conflate us?). And b. an argument is an argument, no matter who it comes from. Either Kurumi is paranoid or he's scum defending scum, trying to derail any argument against freeloader. I'm leaning towards the former, because apparently he has a history of being like this, but a DT should check him out tonight. Leaving my vote on freeloader 'cause there's noone with a better case against them. That doesn't speak to strength of the case against freeloader but rather to the weakness of any other case. (not voting Kurumi 'cause if he is scum, then freeloader probably is too). This is his response to Kurumi’s attack on him. In the first paragraph, smart players could pick up that there were a couple other suspicious people, but he didn’t, then states that he is a noob.Stating that he is a noob is going to be very important as to my final verdict on him. He however notes that the case against freeloader is weak, but then why did he vote in the 1st place then? 6th post o.O? Is he confused about why there needs to be a lynch everyday or what? I do not understand this face here. 7th post Sorry, I should've spelled it out a bit better. I say there needs to be a lynch, so we have to start looking for scum and voting where there's the best case. So Kurumi calls me scum. Then he goes to make a very similar argument. Just juxtaposing the two posts. Circular and ambigious statements are made here. He states that there needs to be a lynch when he was confused about it in his last post. Also, he says that we have to start looking for scum, when he already voted on freeloader. Very scummy. 8th post On June 06 2011 09:02 grush57 wrote: Show nested quote + Says the person with only 1 post so far? Crazy actually has a couple of posts from last night. Use the profile button. Check post history. You both are saying a whole lot of nothing (although, there isn't really much to say this early). Indirectly defending Crazy’s ideas by making a theory that quantity equals validity. 9th post On June 06 2011 11:41 Aril wrote: Heya, I don't think I'll be on tomorrow so I'm voting now. Care to explain your vote at all? Reasonable question to ask, Aril is seeming like a lurker to me. 10th post One really big point - if you're going to quote a really long post it'd be great if you could put it in spoiler tags (just a formatting issue but helps to clean up the page a fair bit). Meaning you, iGrok. @CjrNinja Can you confirm that the role PM for mafia members spells out that mafia can communicate by PM? If this is true than obviously mafia wouldn't post that question and I'll change my vote from freeloader. Otherwise, though, he seems even more scummy to me now. I didn't vote for him cause he asked a silly question, it was how he replied to scrutiny. Since then, he hasn't posted in the thread at all. And I can confirm that he's been on TL - check his post history, he's posted a whole bunch in today's MLG live report. Either he's scum and waiting for suspicion to die down or he's town and has given up and resigned himself to getting lynched. Why did he pick CjrNinja to ask that question? He could have just pmed a mod or Blue texted his question, but he asks a buddy to do so. He states that He didn’t vote for freeloader because he seemed silly, but because of the responses. He was one of the first to vote for Freeloader and his earlier posts stated that he thought freeloader was scum, so he just voted right away. If that isn’t indication that treadmill is a mafia, then I am 2 feet tall. 11th post + Show Spoiler + Hrrrm. That doesn't stop him from being lazy mafia. If mafia members received the info about being allowed to PM in their role PM, then only town wouldn't definitely know that and so only a town would ask. BUT if the information is not explicit in the role PMs, then town and mafia could equally easily not know (and not read fully the OP) and so someone asking could still be either. Does that make sense? I guess the only people who'd know for certain which it is would be the mafia (who won't show us their role PM to prove it) and the mods (who won't say cause it'd affect the game). Doesn't escape the fact that freeloader, who has been in the lead to be lynched, has been online without posting here at all. Which makes me suspicious. This feels like more of a copypasta idea rather than something new, as he is just reposting the rules of the game. He twists the statements to make himself look good, but we know he is scummy. Post 12 is a EBWOP. 13th post @CjrNinja Okay, fair enough. I'll unvote freeloader for now. A bunch of other names have come up, with better or worse cases against them Here's what I think: Jimbooo - seems more inexperienced than scum. I think that's the consensus so let's focus on other people. cherubael - I do not understand people's suspicion of him (literally don't understand. If you're voting him, please explain why). Kairo voted for him but even seemed confused in his post: + Show Spoiler + TheAwesomeAll - I don't really understand the case against him either. He posted a list of lurkers. Yay. But he also addressed the only thing that had been discussed up until then (freeloader). I don't think its fair to say someone's trying to post while avoiding talking substantively when there's not really any substance to talk about anyways. amazingxkcd - the case against him is mostly this post: On June 06 2011 02:56 amazingxkcd wrote: It is quite clear that it can be seen who are the main talkers for both side. The only question is now how to distinguish between the two sides and how to act upon it which is admittedly - weird. Reposting the "newbie guides" was in response to a question by rookie44. I want to see more of his posts and how he votes, to get a better sense of him. Lafali - saying "its OK to mislynch" could be scummy or it could be his honest opinion. Without knowing any playing history I don't think its possible to tell. grush57 - he has a better case against him than most others. Saying On June 06 2011 04:12 grush57 wrote: Im not inactive, I just dont feel like anybody can accuse this early. and then joining the fl625 bandwagon and saying On June 06 2011 04:21 grush57 wrote: Yea true, I stupidly joined the bandwagon to lynch freeloader from his posts. seems more than a bit weird. Also he hasn't really offered his opinion on anything - those two posts are literally all that he said on freeloader despite voting for him. Alderan made a decent case a little while ago. _________________________________________________ I'm not sorry for "bandwagonning" freeloader early on 'cause we got some discussion going and got people posting (which is always good for the town). And I still think there's a decent case against him. Two people I think need to talk more are Benjef who voted, then changed his vote, then made one post about it without really saying anything, and Aril, who voted Kurumi and only said On June 06 2011 11:41 Aril wrote: Heya, I don't think I'll be on tomorrow so I'm voting now. by way of explanation. I will post the biggest thing here, and it has to do with him wanting me to defend myself. THE ONLY EVIDENCE HE HAS AGAINST ME IS MY 1ST POST AND I EXPLAINED THAT POST IN MY ANALYSIS OF ALDERAN. You will see why that will be important. 14th post I was about to EBWOP that I think that grush57 was our best lynch. But then freeloader625 posted again. I waited a bit to see if he had any more to say. He didn't, and I'm even more convinced that we should lynch him. First off, its a big long post showing he's been paying attention to the thread. But he doesn't address anything except the arguments against him. That, in my mind, is the biggest strike against him - if he was town, he'd be concerned with more than just his own survival, he'd want to find out who the mafia are. If he was a good town player he'd talk about some of the other accusations, some of the other discussions - especially since he's indicated that he's been following the thread. And also because, if you look at the last few pages, he hasn't been suspect number one for a while. Second, freeloader625 sounds like he's trying really hard to sound unconcerned about the allegations against him. That doesn't jive with writing a big post that has no purpose other than defending himself. He's trying to defend himself without sounding like he's defending himself (mostly by jumping on DeMorcerf's and CjrNinja's explanations without really providing his own) - a scummy play for sure. What do I honestly think and why haven't I really commented even though I threw myself under the bus? I'll give a longer explanation come closer to Day 1's end. Har har har, another "bad defensive" post by me :D Take it as you may. I take it as meaning: freeloader625, you are scum. So I'm gonna put that vote I just took off of you back on. He changes his vote back to freeloader because he doesn’t think there is anyone else to go after. He wants to bring up freeloader because freeloader fell out of the spotlight. 15th post First, Kurumi, i'd agree that he's a good target for a DT check. (Actually, I argued for that around 5 pages ago but iGrok laid it out much better). And also, either he's scum or a lousy townie. I can buy that some people might think that throwing around wild accusations to provoke a response might be a good idea, but I couldn't disagree more. Especially allegations based on made-up stuff. I'd tend to agree with the points that omgCrazy made with regards to gtsrs - iGrok. Laying out how many possible blues there are isn't fishing for blues by any stretch of the imagination. gtsrs looks a little scummy - though he could just be dumb. They could both be town, or it could be iGrok town and gtsrs mafia, I don't see it the other way around. The one little worry I have is that BOTH might be mafia and pulling a total mental mindfuck on us. Lastly: + Show Spoiler + A. Why is freeloader obviously town? You throw that out there without any back-up. I admit (and have admitted) that myself and a few others were very hasty and did bandwagon him early on - because of inexperience. But there's been nothing since to exonerate him. B. Your argument against iGrok is "vote for him and he'll drop scumtells". Which is stupid - he's an experienced player, that's not gonna happen. C. You haven't actually addressed any of his arguments about Kurumi, you've just said "he's a good guy, trust me I know, and since iGrok fingered him iGrok must be scum!" He admits that he was a bit hasty, but then he just said that there is no concrete evidence to lynch freeloader. HIS LAST POST SAID HE WAS GOING TO LYNCH FREELOADER. 2 posts together, and we get this clear juxtaposition. Mafia he is. 16th post. Just a point I just woke up, and am reading the thread (that explains my recent inactivity). I'm reading the thread and will have something to post once I'm done. He just said that he is reading the thread twice. That’s an English error right there. Let’s see what his next post is to combat his lack of recent posting. 17th post Firstly, there's something for me to quote from Ver's analysis of Mafia XXX: Now, what if by some miracle, Youngminii was lynched and flipped green, or worse, vigilante? What would that have said about Foolishness? Think hard and carefully here, because this is a logic issue that really has plagued the town in so many TL games, especially this one. At its core is the question: what does "lynching for information" actually mean? The lynch outcome alone would have said nothing about Foolishness! If Foolishness is veteran, how does he have any definite knowledge of what Youngminii is? He doesn't, therefore he can only do his best and try to figure out YM's role from the tools he has. That in itself does not distinguish him from Godfather Foolishness one bit. The key distinction between the two is to look at how he got Youngminii lynched and his overall play, not that he got Youngminii lynched. The latter fact, while not entirely irrelevant, is nowhere near sufficient enough on its own to warrant a lynch (and everyone knows if YM had popped up vigi Foolishness would've been autokilled the next day). Thus it would be nonsensical to lynch YM because you think it will give the most information (the information is next to useless). The only reason to lynch YM, or virtually anyone ever, is to kill mafia. That's it. There's a lot of wrong-headed thinking going around this game and I want to try and address some of it. A. as the quote above says, if Mr X accuses Mr Y and Mr Y is lynched and flips town, it doesn't say anything about Mr X. He could be mafia, or he could've made an honest mistake and be town. B. related to [A], look at the content of people's arguments, not just who they're accusing! If someone accuses someone else with a decent explanation, than even if you disagree with his arguments he probably isn't mafia. It's more suspicious if the reasoning is crappy, though even then you may have misunderstood the reasons or the accuser may be a newbie or a moron. C. if someone changes their mind, they could be mafia. Or they could've just changed their mind. Again, read their posts. Look for their reasoning - and it could make sense to the poster even if it doesn't to you. People need to start reading posts more, and listening to peoples arguments rather than making their own (I'm as guilty as anyone on that). The town loses if we're all paranoid and flaming each other. By his reasoning, he is mafia then. He just said it himself, he is mafia. 18th post On June 07 2011 06:03 Jackal58 wrote: Show nested quote + You his scum buddy? Oh god dammit Jackal, don't even start there. Don't accuse someone of being scum just because he disagrees with you. I do too, for that matter. Until we hear more from rookie44, see how (and when) he votes, there really isn't enough to say (well, imo). “I do too, for that matter”. I do not understand the context of this sentence and what part it’s referring to. He is waiting for rookie’s responses. 19th post Alternately rookie44 is blue. Let's see: trying not to be noticed, yeah. Mafia or blue. Interested in what blues have to say, well, OK. Not really blue fishing - more interested in talking about the strategy for what our blues should be doing. That's my read on rookie44, a newbie blue. I didn't want to out him cause if I'm right I painted a big, fat target on his back. But there's all of a sudden a bandwagon building on him, and with how spread out our votes are the mafia will be able to easily swing a lynch. Good call, you caught a medic there! You stated that he is a newb blue, so it means that you are not worried about what he could do. Why else would you have such a casual tone? 20th post I absolutely don't buy the "hunting for blues" nonsense on rookie44. I don't see at all how what he's been saying could lead to blues revealing themselves - one of the people voting for him should lay out the case a bit better. On June 07 2011 06:01 Jackal58 wrote: Show nested quote + We'll start with the post I linked: Show nested quote + My analysis in red. This guy is scum. Point by point: 1. Irrelevant. And battle.net mafia is EXTREMELY different from this. 2. No, he isn't asking people to post their roles. He's asking what people think good strategy for blues would be - which is a reasonable question from town and even more sensible for a blue poster. 3. Alternately, he's honestly a newbie asking experienced players what they think we should be doing. 4. Or, he's giving his reason, as a townie, for asking. The "analysis" is bullshit. This is bandwagonning at its WORST. Well, you are only now starting to act like a townsfolk. We know battle.net mafia is different, no need to state that. He’s a newb, and you are taking advantage of him. Only now should you have to find other people to vote for so that you don’t look like mafia. 21st post On June 07 2011 08:56 Impervious wrote: Show nested quote + If this was a day 2 or later lynch, I'd expect something more convincing. But it's not. If you have a better idea, I'd like to hear it. Almost anyone else would be a better idea. I'm just bothered that wll of a sudden a bunch of people (xkcd, Kurumi, Senj) are jumping on voting for a guy, a handful of hours before the lynch. Especially considering: Senj is a lurker who's posted the bare minimum to be considered active amazingxkcd who's posted a whole lot of nothing - his only contributions have been posting one-liners about why other people's ideas are bad Kurumi - who's been posting a lot, and insanely aggressively, and accusing everyone flat-out of being scum, but when he decides who to vote for he posts a chort and uncertain post wihtout really explaining. It just seems like the analysis is a lot worse on this case than it has been on a bunch of others - but a couple people started voting for him and set a bandwagon rolling. As for scummiest posts, I still haven't seen anything to top this: On June 06 2011 14:21 freeloader625 wrote: It's true. I spent most of the weekend watching MLG, both streams. I was keeping an eye on this for all mirror matches though, I just chose not to comment. Show nested quote + Yes, I'm ashamed to admit I let pages 2-8 or 9 go without reading it, I assumed it was all just full of "/in's." I only read the first post and posts since the game has officially started. Show nested quote + Ohhh dirtay! I didn't not realize outside posts were fair game for this! I was under the impression (initially) that you can't click on ppls profiles/outside posts to avoid cheating or w/e. But I guess that's fair game. What do I honestly think and why haven't I really commented even though I threw myself under the bus? I'll give a longer explanation come closer to Day 1's end. Har har har, another "bad defensive" post by me :D Take it as you may. Jumping back on freeloader now. He lists of people who posted a lot and contributed, but attempted to put them down. Also, he did not read the rules completely, otherwise he would have known about looking at posting history. 22nd post is an EBWOP 23rd post Another interesting point: Jackal58 makes his case against rookie44, it's pretty weak, the people posting aren't convinced. Nobody but him votes for rookie44. Then an hour later On June 07 2011 06:28 Kurumi wrote: ##unvote ##vote: Rookie44 On June 07 2011 06:29 Senj wrote: ##vote: Rookie44 On June 07 2011 06:31 amazingxkcd wrote: ##VOTE: Rookie44 Look at the time stamps, within 3 minutes of each other. And none of them posted for 2 hours previous to bandwagonning rookie. It looks liek co-ordination. He discovers the time stamp vote scandal. He states that Jackal’s case is bad. 24th post @iGrok: we're talking about amazingxkcd, Kurumi, and Senj who all out of the blue voted for rookie44 at the same time. I don;t think that jackal is scum, I think that he believes he has a case against rookie44. I'm not totally convinced on those three but considering that there're are already suspicions about Kurumi and amazingxkcd and that Senj has been a lurker it looks really suspicious. He starts to accuse the 3 and now defends Jackal’s post while saying that he thinks jackal isn’t scum. Where is his proof for that? 25th post is about him referring from a guide stating that lynching for information is bad, despite him wanting to do it. 26th post is something random, disregard. 27th post On June 07 2011 06:34 amazingxkcd wrote: Show nested quote + You seem to be in a position to defend rookie44 when he has made quite a lot of scummy posts, particularly trying to take advantage of noobs to slip up their roles with Show nested quote + Also, notices how already from the start of the game, he is asking for roles and wanted to lynch Treadmill without any sound proof besides making a suggestion about the freeloader wagon being loaded with mafias Show nested quote + Here, he is making assumptions about what the mafia should do, which is trying to divert attention away from him. Show nested quote + for these reasons and the ones given by jackal58 as well as kurumi, i am voting for Rookie44 on the basis of clear scummy post and trying to divert attention away from himself with circular logic ##Vote: Rookie44 also alderan, I am very suspicious of you for trying to defend this guy. Elaborate as to why you think he is not a scum. And this, here, is amazingxkcd's analysis of rookie44. There's the line about "trying to divert attention away from himself" when rookie's post was waaay before there WAS any attention on him. Also, the point about "asking for roles" is bullshit - he was asking what we thought blues should do, which is very different. Also, Alderan basically says "rookie seems little scummy but I'm not convinced" and xkcd starts attacking him. That and the co-ordinated timing of the votes (which is enough evidence by itself, for me), and earlier stuff posted by Alderan. Also this stupid rookie bandwagon. amazingxkcd looks very very red. How did he pick me? I give reasons, if analyzed by other fellow townies, is pretty convincing and he just singled me out. He clearly had gotten some instruction from Jackal. 28th post 2 mafia getting modkilled is nice, means they're down to 3 KP. On the other hand, we're probably out of medics. Which means the mafia gets to kill pretty much whoever they want. Hey look! rookie44 was a blue! What a surprise! I'm gonna point out that I totally called that. But not to brag - if I saw it, someone in the mafia probably suspected him of being blue too. In fact it's a little more obvious to them cause they could rule out rookie being red. So i'm even more convinced that the mafia managed to swing that lynch. I'm pretty comfortable saying that Senj, amazingxkcd, and Kurumi are mafia. To a more experienced player (iGrok or Vain preferably) what would you think of out vigi's shooting at them tonight? I'm maybe 80 or 90% sure, but I'd want someone with more experience to comment. He states that mafia swung that lynch. He voted for rookie after us 3 voted and so did jackal voted. That is bandwagoning, take note of that. He is also convinced that I deserved to get killed, as well as Senj, and Kurumi, when he has made a case only against me. Why Senj? Treadmill has said nothing about him all game and he wants a kill on him already? Mafia to me. 29th post Errm. Lafali just did something rather unfortunate, which would be to vote for Rookie44 after the end of the day, where he was modkilled and shown to be mafia: On June 07 2011 13:18 Lafali wrote: ##Vote Rookie44 So sorry if I was late, I was out tonight. which increases my suspicion that rookie's lynch was scum-motivated. He voted for rookie, and so did many other people did too. If we look at this statement, It will be clear that he just indicated himself as Mafia since he voted only after the first 4 voted, all of whom had legit reasons. 30th post (I’m going to stop after this one because the evidence against him is already enough to convince him as mafia scum) On June 07 2011 13:49 iGrok wrote: Jackal's push to lynch rookie came out of fucking nowhere, and gathered way too much steam. I thought about reasons why he would do that, and one possible reason is that he was drawing attention from freeloader. I'm not certain of course, but it would be a good play, particularly if Jackal is the Godfather and was worried about losing KP due to inactivity & the lynch. Oh, and I'm sure there are arrows missing, those are just the ones I could remember off the top of my head. I'm not convinced that Jackal is scum. He advocated for Rookie's lynch, yes, but all day one everyone was advocated to lynch a different person. What I suspect is that the mafia saw it and jumped on it as an opportunity, about an hour later: On June 07 2011 09:35 Treadmill wrote: Another interesting point: Jackal58 makes his case against rookie44, it's pretty weak, the people posting aren't convinced. Nobody but him votes for rookie44. Then an hour later Show nested quote + Show nested quote + Show nested quote + Look at the time stamps, within 3 minutes of each other. And none of them posted for 2 hours previous to bandwagonning rookie. It looks liek co-ordination. when Senj, amazingxkcd, and Kurumi all vote for rookie at the same time. It's the main reason I think all three are scum. On June 07 2011 14:00 iGrok wrote: One thing I notice now is that Treadmill has the most arrows. Treadmill, you are an interesting person... Everything he's done has been in the right. Everything. When it was unpopular, he stood by his ideas. He's defended those he felt were wrongly accused, and and accused those he felt were guilty. IMO, Treadmill is Town. Aww, <3. iGrok, you’re making a mistake! If you are reading my analysis, and you still think he’s town, I got a guy named Flamewheel whose gonna Flame Strike the shit out of you. Thus in all, Verdict is [B]MAFIA SCUM [*] Drazerk + Show Spoiler + 1st post Ok yesterday i was quite busy and made my vote without explaining i read freeloaders post and it came to me as quite a large failure on his half although and bought into treadmills words who was pretty much slating him at this point for it who in turn im now suspecting after reading everything again Ill follow this up later just wanted to post my thoughts at the moment Fail lurker comment. Don’t just vote without saying something. 2nd post On June 07 2011 08:15 heist wrote: An updated list after the massive amount of rookie votes: Rookie: 5 Freeloader: 4 Treadmill: 2 Drazerk: 2 jimbooo:2 igrok: 2 monsterdrakar: 2 gtrsrs: 2 amazingxkcd: 1 Kurumi: 1 TheAwesomeAll: 1 Can the people who voted monsterDrakar and Drazerk explain themselves? Hell i can explain for them, Ive been lurking for the better part of this first day and i voted without saying anything When i got up this morning I did make a small post but nothing major bar changing my vote from freeloader to treadmill after reading all the posts and believing he was not scum With my erratic voting / posting pattern i would not be surprised if more people voted for me though and ill try to make amends tomorrow Another post making excuses about lurking, the only thing correct is that you voted for treadmill. 3rd post On June 07 2011 09:35 Treadmill wrote: Another interesting point: Jackal58 makes his case against rookie44, it's pretty weak, the people posting aren't convinced. Nobody but him votes for rookie44. Then an hour later Show nested quote + Show nested quote + Show nested quote + Look at the time stamps, within 3 minutes of each other. And none of them posted for 2 hours previous to bandwagonning rookie. It looks liek co-ordination. Good catch by the looks of things every vote for Rookie has been within 5 mins of one another leading me to believe that this is very organised Because there are a lot of inexperienced players ( my self included ) band wagoning will occur more often allowing the scum to get easier Lynch kills in the earlier days until we either prove or disprove Jackel's Theory In my opinion Rookie is more inexperienced than Scum material He gives his opinions, but he doesn’t back it up. However, he is just jumping on the bandwagon way too much already. Complete Lurker, not responding to requests, also jumping on bandwagons. He did vote once for treadmill, which just confuses the hell out of me. Verdict is [B]EXTREMELY SCUMMISH UNKOWN I do want to make him a pure mafia scum is simply because he voted for treadmill once. [*] Jimbooo + Show Spoiler + As for Jimboo’s case, his case has already been outlined and he was voted by 4 guys, one of who was confirmed a townie by death. His verdict SCUMMISH MAFIA I HAVE NO CLUE WHY HE VOTED TREADMILL LURKER [*] Aril + Show Spoiler + 1st post On June 05 2011 13:47 Treadmill wrote: It is a good spot, aprudds. We should keep an eye on freeloader625. Jimbooo, we do have to lynch somebody. Being "hasty" isn't really a concern. And somebody with next to no evidence against them is a better lynch than everyone else with no evidence against them at all. Still, 48 hours yet. If someone was asking a question that might be incriminating, and they weren't mafia, wouldn't the mafia be quick to accuse that person, to keep someone "actually" in the mafia from getting lynched? I think going after a person because of a question is a little low.. He is questioning the bandwagoning that was being formed. That’s a good move since the bandwagon was hasty and ill-wrought. 2nd post On June 05 2011 14:39 cherubael wrote: Also, Aril, you seem to be very quick in defending him, while not wanting to accuse anyone. Are you afraid your role will be too obvious if you accuse someone? Also, what reason do you have to defend him? What has he done for you? The only reason would be because you are both mafia, and you are trying to look out for him. Defending people in this situation isn't wrong. There is a suspicious atmosphere floating around everyone and half of us are townies so you know what I mean, we want to get some conversation out here so we can actual get a good look at what a everyone's saying, and it only hurts the town if they're afraid everything they say is going to get them falsely accused. We shouldn't all gang up on people right away and if we do then I'll be on the defending side until they make their case and I can make my own reasonable judgement. He is playing the role of public defender. That alone is enough for me to simply label him as a TOWNIE [*]TranceStorm + Show Spoiler + 1st post Hey everyone, I just got into the thread, and have a few quick observations to make. On the topic of freeloader: I don't think he would be mafia off of his initial question. Having played a previous game as mafia, mafia members are explicitly aware of the fact that they are allowed to PM one another meaning that he would not need to ask that question in the first place. Given that he said that "he read the rules twice", there is no reason to believe that he would not read his role PM as closely. Many people have concluded that his responses to being put under pressure are suspicious, but I don't think so. If anything, a mafia member would not want to put themselves under increased suspicion with cryptic statements - they want to hide, not increase the chances that they will be caught out. This, however, is not as strong as the first reason I had said above. Judging based off of day 1 analysis will never be entirely solid, however, the people that jumped the gun to vote for freeloader are more suspicious then freeloader himself. Seems innocent enough, giving an explanation as to his stance on freeloader being under pressure. 2nd post On June 06 2011 11:02 cherubael wrote: + Show Spoiler + This and the comment on the inactivelist is the only relevant information 35spike1 has posted. This leaves him off the list, but he seems to have nothing relevant to say. This seems a little suspicious, so I think that keeping an eye on him would be a good idea, though I wouldn't say he's scum...yet. Wait until after this day to start accusing lurkers of being suspicious or what not. After the first day, voting lists will be drawn up and inactive/lurker lists will be drawn up as well. When that happens we can pressure them - ask them what they think of the situation and why they voted for X. Lurkers have a high chance of being mafia but also a high chance of being a blue role as well. This statement of his is a complete townie move as he knows that the lurkers will be pressured soon anyway, so he is going to concentrate on the more active players. 3rd post On June 06 2011 23:59 Kurumi wrote: Oh,about voting: People who voted on freeloader625 and not switched(ever): cherubael teamsolid grush57 People who voted on freeloader625 then swtiched: Treadmill(vote->unvote->vote again) Drazerk -> Treadmill Jimboo -> unvote Lafali -> unvote People who switched on freeloader625: Benjef Treadmill -> freeloader I will try to dig why they have voted on freeloader/changed their votes/dropped the case. The scummiest guy? As for now,it would be Lafali;gtrsrs case is the thing I will get into in a quick moment,because there's a bit of content to analysis,but mostly when "weaker' player attacks "stronger" player it is overeager Townie versus Townie. I posted my analysis on Jimboo earlier - I want to see his response and his explanation for quickly turning around despite advocating for restraint. If he doesn't respond with a sufficient response then I will definitely vote for him. As to Lafali, I don't have a clear read on him at all. He's posted a couple of one-liners and a single defensive post as well. Not enough for any serious analysis. In any case, I believe that Jimbooo is definitely the stronger candidate. I have already stated that Jimbooo is most likely scum materials and trancestorm confirms that. I do not have time to go in more depth analysis, but I have read the rest of his posts, and confirmed that he is a townie, despite being wrong about he. [*] heist + Show Spoiler + 1st post Freeloader's last two responses were really vague and general. I'm not really suspicious of the people defending his first post, but the his last two posts do seem fairly fishy. He is making a scummy post here. He states that freeloader is being vague, but he does not question any of the accusations against freeloader as a single bit scummy. 2nd post is just him being an idiot by not reading the rules and the Mod’s posts. However, he seems a bit shocked that people know the amount of mafia members there are. 3rd post, he apologizes for his mistake. 4th post On June 06 2011 05:33 supersoft wrote: Show nested quote + this list doesn't tell anything about the people on the list... Maybe they're just lurking like I was. You can delete me from that list btw. This list is meant to pressure people into posting. It's meant to highlight the people that are lying low and "lurking". I expect mafia, esp in a game with so many inexperienced users, to try to remain innocuous and not garner much attention on the early game. A townie would not feel as much pressure and wouldn't care about this list. You, however, seem really concerned about getting off this list. You say its too early to judge anyone especially before we get to really know anyone. But how do you expect us to judge you if your posts are meaningless (unless you dont want us to judge you)? How you post and your response to accusations and early votes are the only means we have to go on. Currently your posts as Kurumi states are pure fluff. They tell us nothing about you and seem like you're just trying to just accomplish your post quota without saying anything. Very fluffy responses made here. He supports the list of people who haven’t posted yet, despite the fact that its barely 12 hours into the game and there are 48 hours in the game. Very scummy like. 5th post On June 06 2011 18:06 Pyo wrote: After reading the posts up to now, I am reasonably confident that freeloader is probably a townie and the ambiguity of early accusers and their motivations means that there's not much to be learned from lynching him, although it might be inevitable at this point. Since his post in his defense haven't really been all that constructive anyway it isn't really a big loss, so I'm not gonna fight it. The players that I find annoying are by far Haiku boy and Kurumi. So if ever I'm undecided about who to vote for it'll probably be one of them. I think it is interesting to note all the little 1v1 bickering going on, the most recent example of which is between iGrok and gtrsrs. I think it is reasonable to assume that two mafia wouldn't orchestrate a mini feud this early on, which means that either both are town or only one is town. So combining my last 2 paragraphs, I think I'm gonna have to change my vote to iGrok. If I am to understand correctly, the two people who you find MOST suspicious and in need of lynching are basically the talkers, the ones generating discussion, if a bit rash on Kurumi's end. Im trying to shift through the arguments against iGrok and the number one reason i can come up with is his haikus which you find personally annoying. This is probably one of the most flimsy excuses to lynch someone i have ever read. Your post does not outline any reasonable level of analysis to claim iGrok or Kurumi as scum. Basing your vote on who annoys you the most is by far one the most detrimental ways to approach your vote. Your personal decisions on who to lynch mean little to the rest of the town if you dont back it up well. You should be using your posts to try to persuade the town with logical claims and observations about these players. Bickering though unfortunate is bound to happen with wounded egos. This early I think it's a little premature to call anyone mafia if they are arguing with someone else. And while we are talking about Kurumi or iGrok, people like grush57 are remaining largely ignored. This is the extent of his posts: On June 06 2011 04:21 grush57 wrote: Yea true, I stupidly joined the bandwagon to lynch freeloader from his posts. On June 06 2011 04:12 grush57 wrote: Im not inactive, I just dont feel like anybody can accuse this early. On June 06 2011 09:02 grush57 wrote: Show nested quote + Says the person with only 1 post so far? On June 06 2011 09:10 grush57 wrote: Oh, sorry, only checked back a couple pages. Easy one-liner responses. He claims that bandwagoning Freeloader was a stupid decision but has yet to revert his vote. He claims he isn't inactive yet does not post. To me he warrants far more suspicion. Better post here. He does a little bit of analyzing and determines that grush57 seems a bit scummish. At least his reasonings make sense for once. 6th post It seems like a lot of our votes are getting split into multiple people. First of all, I want to strongly advise everyone who voted for freeloader to strongly reconsider their vote. If freeloader was taken out of the equation who would you vote for? why? There are been enough posts that warrant much more suspicious behavior than freeloader's question. I think it's been an easy mafia move to just bandwagon freeloader, feel safe in the numbers, and be able to provide an easy explanation. I'd also think it would be highly prudent if we went into this lynch with some sort of collective strategy. On day 1 there are really only two justifications for a lynch that i can see: 1. Everything related to freeloader (those who voted for him so quickly, those that changed their mind, those that provided a weak/suspicious defense when questioned, and to a MINISCULE degree freeloader himself). Most likely, if we killed everyone who voted for him, perhaps we get one or two mafia members. But right now it seems like the majority of the votes are simply rushing townies (please reconsider). However, pressuring these people into responding may come up with incongruities, anti-town suspicions and actions, and perhaps a reliable person to accuse. 2. The second way to approach the lynch is target the lurkers, the ones with very weak justifications for votes, and those that are overtly defensive when questioned without providing any real defense to allegations. Those that touch base, have a 1 liner quip, and then depart. These have are some people that are very suspicious to me in that regard: Grush57 Supersoft Lafali amazingxkcd gtrsrs (to a lesser extent) Everyone should really reevaluate who they voted for. If the primary reason is aggression, that's simply not enough to go by on. Aggression right now whether it be personal or otherwise can be construed as both town and mafia and is high unreliable differentiating mafia from town. Also, personal annoyances are the LEAST effective means to go by on. Please don't vote like that. I'm curious as to which you deem more effective, the one we should be pursuing because too much chatter has been focused on the first while the second approach (the one i deem with a larger mafia pool) to be less examined. He is doing a bit of circling with freeloader, since he suspected freeloader originally. He then goes on to list 5 people, (one who is dead, one who is me, and one for whom he has only written a reason). He does not give much reasoning for why it would be this 5. A bit scummish to me. 7th post is a list he made of the votes after the bandwagon switch on rookie. He asks monsterDrakar and Drazerk for reasoning. This seems a bit more of a town move since mafia wouldn’t really question why their fellow comrades voted the way they did. 8th post yes I can explain myself. I judged over monsterDrakar too quick. I am used to the sc2 mafia, where everything has to be very quick and most votes happen to be intentional... Despite of that, I will stick to my vote, since monsterDrakar obviously won't be lynched and I really don't know who to vote for, as I described in my last post. Sorry but that's a terrible reason to vote for someone. You believe, as of now, monsterDrakar is most likely not mafia. Yet you refuse to unvote him. Yes, no one is sure of anything at this point but its simply lazy to refuse to revote based on whats occuring now especially in regards to Rookie. It would also be interesting to hear your read on the other person who voted for monsterDrakar. He is questioning the people who made votes without much thoughts. He is trying to contribute more to the town discussions. 9th post is a redundant statement about mafia trying to lie there. 10-11 Is just restating what I said. 12th post OK, this close to the end of Day 1, I'd like to ask everyone who voted for Freeloader, Drazerk, and Jimbooo to revote. I'm not saying they aren't mafia. They very well could be especially Jimboo who remains highly suspicious. However, THEY WILL NOT BE LYNCHED. You won't achieve majority and your votes will be meaningless. I really urge you all to consider Impervious' plan. There's no real solid long-term plan if we do lynch Jimbooo no matter what he turns up. If you're voting based purely on suspicious behavior alone, Amazingxkcd has given off no pro-town vibe. His early posts contributed nothing useful and his latter posts are mainly defensive posts against a multitude of other people (i.e Drazerk, alderan, kairo,). Also, why are people still voting for Freeloader..... He is acting like a dumb townie. He knows that the freeloader case is quite stupid, but he is making a mistake with me. Impervious made a major mistake as well, but heist is just blindly following him since I started to act more like kurumi now. That being said, I really can’t say much about him, so I am going on a hunch and just state that his verdict is TOWN-siding UNKOWN | ||
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amazingxkcd
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + 1st post Pretending that question is anything but a very suspicious question is foolish in my honest opinion. But I agree, it would be rash to vote him now with no actual information. This is him talking about theAwesomeAll’s notes on freeloader. He makes some good observations but really doesn’t bring anything else. 2nd post Kurumi, you come off as a towny that is reading too far into too little. It's important to remember that this game is full of beginners and important to remember people will try to take advantage of that, but people will still make mistakes such as hopping on a bandwagon without really thinking into it. Time for bed for me though. Cya tomorrow. He’s reading into Kurumi as a fellow townie. BECAUSE I CAN PROVE THAT KURUMI IS A TOWNIE, and also because I never had suspicions of Sprungjeezy, verdict is Townie [*] monsterDrakar + Show Spoiler + 1st post Hello dudes, I just woke up to find out that the Mafia has begun their attack on the innocent townies. Hell, it was about time. It's gonna be a looooooong day. I really can't support aprudds random accusation based on a question asked before the game. It seems to me that he is just testing the water so to speak - who is willing to quick vote, who is willing to jump on bandwagons, who will try to defend the inoccent until they are proven guilty without a doubt, and who is going to lurk and never post until directly mentioned? Waaaay to early to answer those questions. So let's have ourselves a nice clean random lynch at Day1, and most importantly Good Luck and Have Fun. “Let’s have a nice clean random lynch at Day 1”. SCUM ALERT, MAN THE FLAMETHROWERS, KILL IT WITH FIRE!!!! 2nd post Vain you make me look silly in your summary, but its great otherwise. I quickly made a list of inactive people, you can ignore the numbers. + Show Spoiler + I will quickly make a list of people who annoy me with their first post. - Hide Spoiler - TheAwesomeAll You got my vote. You earned it. SCUM ALERT! KILL IT WITH MORE FIRE!!! 3rd post Show nested quote + More explanation, please. Why does this annoy you? Why do you feel justified voting for people who annoy you rather than people that you suspect are mafia? Yes, it was very rude of me to not provide an explanation. I will not post one liners in the future. It's simple really: A guy comes out of nowhere and makes a list with "innactives" when the game hasn't been running even for a full day. I would expect some people had not seen the thread at that time. The guy himself has JUST become "active", so he isn't on the list. What was more annoying was that the list wasn't even accurate. He posted an updated version (after being corrected by another player) and it still wasn't accurate. He makes himself appear helpful, while providing an absolutely useless piece of information. I do in fact categorize that behavior as scummy. As I said before, I have no interest in participating in the bandwagon lynch of freeloader625. So all-in-all, if I am going to random lynch someone with a 1/5 chance of them being mafia, TheAwesomeAll seems like the best target so far. “if I am going to random lynch someone with a 1/5 chance of them being mafia, TheAwesomeAll seems like the best target so far”. WTF!!! WHY WON’T HE DIE!! WHERES THE NAPALM?? WE GOTTA BLOW UP HIS WHOLE BLOCK!!! VERDICT MAFIA SCUM!! LYNCH HIM, KILL HIM! DOWN WITH THE REDS!!! [*] freeloader625 + Show Spoiler + The first accused person. I am not going to post anything on him since everyone is now convinced that he’s innocent, so verdict is CONFUSEDTOWNIE [*] TheAwesomeAll + Show Spoiler + 1st post I think freeloaders mistake is that he dropped a pretty suspicious question when everyone is searching for the smallest clue. Personally i think he was being stupid asking that question, not necessarily scum. On June 05 2011 16:39 TheKK wrote: Freeloader asked a legitimate question IMO. it was a question only Mafia would want to ask, he probably was just curious but still it was pretty silly. I however agree with aprudd that freeloader should be kept an eye on, but lets not quite lynch him for something that small yet. TheKK was mafia. He stated that would be a question only mafia would want to ask, why else is there any reasons for doing so? Also, because I am convinced that he’s innocent regardless, I am not posting more about him Verdict townie [*] supersoft + Show Spoiler + 1st post is supersoft stating that he can be removed from lurker list. A bit fishy imo. 2nd post st can be treated like it never happened,You know? What are Your thoughts on freeloader bandwagon? Who's Your scum suspect #1? I don't have a scum suspect on day1. It's too early to judge anyone. It's just not reasonable to randomlynch someone in the first round, before we got to know each other a little bit. He’s right. It is too early to judge anyone nor it is reasonable to random lynch as some people were advocating for. 3rd post This list is meant to pressure people into posting. It's meant to highlight the people that are lying low and "lurking". I expect mafia, esp in a game with so many inexperienced users, to try to remain innocuous and not garner much attention on the early game. A townie would not feel as much pressure and wouldn't care about this list. You, however, seem really concerned about getting off this list. You say its too early to judge anyone especially before we get to really know anyone. But how do you expect us to judge you if your posts are meaningless (unless you dont want us to judge you)? How you post and your response to accusations and early votes are the only means we have to go on. Currently your posts as Kurumi states are pure fluff. They tell us nothing about you and seem like you're just trying to just accomplish your post quota without saying anything. and that's bad because? I don't get your point. If someone wants to expose himself, he may do so. I won't, because if I do so, either Mafia shoots me at night, or town lynchs me at day - depending on Last edit: 2011-06-06 07:17:00 what I am, or what you guys think I am. He shouldn’t reveal himself as he has said, but he can bread crumb about what he is. This 3rd post is a bit vague, but why would town want to lynch him if he is a fellow town? Only way to explain that is he is the miller. 4th post okay I didn't know I have to vote... sorry for that. But since I have to, I voted monsterDrakar. I voted for him because he voted against theawesomeall with a poor reason. I think theawesomeall -with his list - is obviously a scary player for mafiosi and other people that don't want to be in the spotlight. At first, I was a bit shocked too, when I saw my name at the lurkerlist. But now I think it's the right move to really start this. So I think monsterDrakar is scum and wants to undermine the credibility of someone who puts some facts on the table. He makes a good point. He admits that he was a bit scared of the list, but he knows that it is just a tool used to pressure people. He then votes against someone who clearly was agitated by that list, so interpretation of this may be strong or not. 5th post is him stating he is confused. I sincerely hope you get to read this, because this is the clearest post you’ll ever read in this thread. 6th post Guys, basically you stated two points against rookie: 1. He wanted to know whether there are strategies, more experienced players usually use in former games. That doesn't mean he's mafia just because he wants to know the strategy. Anyone needs these informations. blues needs it, to know who to check/heal; mafia needs it to know who to frame/kill and the greens have to know the strategy to lynch correctly... So I think this doesn't mean anything 2. He has been quiet since this post. Well, some of us just don't have the time to be active in this thread 24/7. I spend my whole day in university learning taxlaw. That doesn't make anyone suspicious. I heard every possible argument against and in favor already for anyone in here. If someone posts and analyses much he's suspicious, because he tries to be a good townie - on the other hand if someone is really quiet he's suspicious because he is no good townie... If someone votes aggressively against someone, he's suspicious because he wants to kill - if he doesn't vote he's suspicious because he doesn't want anyone to get lynched. Moreover we got reds and blues, both don't want their roles to be known, so everyone pretends to be a green townie... It's a mess... I just want to say, that we have to be careful with soft-points like activity etc. Here, he is warding against the mindgames played by everyone in the thread. He just showed himself as a noobie by this post and it is now clear that he has never played a game of Forum mafia before. 7th post is him explaining his experience (SC2 mafia). 8th post Shit. Sorry Rookie. And no. I am not the best player in this game. If you have that in your head flush it out now. I already said I suck on day 1 and 2. I made a case. I was wrong. All I can do is move on. i told you guys that it was stupid. we should have someone inactive get hanged. that mediclynch was either retarded or done by the mafia. if the mafia stood behind that, i think they wanted to draw attention from their newby-member freeload. he would have been lynched if rookie wasn't... i am not sure about that, but it might be. i also don't buy the "i am bad the first two days" thing. from now on noone should trust these accusations against newby player just because they ask something related to how the mafiatalk works or what strategy may be used... arguments for lynching someone should be based on his votings and his accusations He is adding more evidence to my case against Jackal58 on him being the Godfather. Real mafia wouldn’t just say they suck on day 1 and 2, that’s a massive slip of tongue. BYE BYE Jackal 9th post exactly. DTs should check these three guys that jumped on the bandwagon at the exact same time. kurumi and these other guys. someone mentioned it earlier in this thread. but searching posts with my iphone is super painful. at least i still don't trust jackal. i think his excuse "bad the first days" means: dont lynch me i'll get valuable for you. noone wanted to lynch him, so why should he defend himself like this? explain yorself, jackal! He also notices that Jackal is hiding, and wants a response. Verdict TOWNIE [*]Xedat + Show Spoiler + 1st post is Xedat stating why he hasn’t said anything (6 hour train ride? Where you going, Sweden?) 2nd post Generally, you can only "know" if someone is mafia by their voting and their posting. If you do a lot of helpful posts you seem to be town. If 32 of the 40 people would post a lot of helpful posts we could be sure that the rest are highly probable of being scum. Especially on day one it is important for people to say a lot so we can read the. That means that it is in your interest for the town to be active if you are town and the opposite if you are scum. His argument is true on the lower level, but this is high class mafia games, even if geared for beginners, so he is simply stating obvious things. 3rd post I just read through the whole thread, it looks like people started more useful posts later on, reading through pages 8-17 was a chore. I think it is established that freeloader625's question is not a scum tell, as GGQ told us that they have a "quick topic" and would know if he was scum. Treadmill, Jimboo, cherubael and Lafali were a bit too eager, maybe one of them is mafia but I don't think all of them. I also don't know why Treadmill was singled out from all of them, he was the first one to vote and give a half good explanation, Jimboo and cheru said we shouldn't be too hasty and then still voted for freeloader. I definitely think that Kurumi's hyperactive style is not helpful, he also didn't answer any of iGrok's allegations. I actually don't know who I should vote for today, I don't think that I can actually vote for someone thinking he is more scummy than 1/5 probability. I will vote for Monsterdrakar because his reason for voting theawesomeall (Lists of inactives are bad) is stupid and I think that contributing should not be met with pointless allegations. Here is his first good contribution. Everyone he listed above as suspicious were either confirmed mafia or I proved their guilt in their respective analysis. Because of this, Verdict is Townie Since he doesn’t need more explanation to prove his stance. [*] grush57 + Show Spoiler + 1st post Im not inactive, I just dont feel like anybody can accuse this early. Scummy post, especially after voting on the freeloader wagon. 2nd post Yea true, I stupidly joined the bandwagon to lynch freeloader from his posts. Admits he was bandwagoning on freeloader for no reason. Also very scummy. 3rd post is simply him being dumb and not fully reading the rules. 4th post is him saying sorry for being stupid 5th post is after eons of pages I'm pretty sure gtsrs is scum. He is keep accusing people with little info and keep saying he will risk his life, even though he would be scrambling to save himself if he was up to be lynched. Therefore, I vote gtsrs. Gtsrs only accused iGrok at this point, and it seems that grush doesn’t know about it. Not much information is needed, so Verdict is MAFIA SCUM [*]CjrNinja + Show Spoiler + 1st post Gl hf everyone. Day 1 thoughts: Freeloader625 innocently asks a silly question and gets a lot of heat on him because of it. I doubt he is scum, experienced players have already said that mods make it clear to mafia that they can communicate outside the thread. I’d say that his posts shows him to be more town orientated because of it. so all those voting for Freeloader please unvote him immediately so as to avoid a mislynch. Subsequent posts are ambiguous one-liners, not really much to go on, looks silly but not screaming scum to me. Speaking of which, the people who have voted for freeloader625: Cherubael- Not sure about this guy. Pushed for the freeloader vote, which raised my suspicions of until I saw that he pointed out 35spike1s post and further lack of contribution (see below). On June 05 2011 13:54 cherubael wrote: Also, the fact that he states he's only played SC2 Mafia before does seem like he is attempting to appear to be inexperienced. A little bit too defensive for a townie, in my opinion. Please elaborate on the last part for me. Jimbooo- vote retracted. Quick to jump the gun for a lynch, but realizes his mistake and unvotes quickly. Probably too overeager, no scummy posts. Lafali- vote retracted. On June 05 2011 15:16 Lafali wrote: His subsequent posts were fishy. Due to that I hopped on the voting bandwagon along with them. Its a 40 player game, I'm sure we can afford a few mislynches. Regardless, we should continue scumhunting. We do have 48 hours. WTF is this shit? Hopping on the voting bandwagon is exactly what scum does in order to lynch townies. Good job, way to do the scum’s work for them. Based on this post alone it makes you either scum, or a very clueless townie. You’re my prime suspect atm but I’ll withhold voting for you until after I see how you defend yourself. Treadmill, Benjef, Drazerk, grush57. Don’t really have much of a read on these guys. Treadmill pretty hasty in his posts like Jimbooo, but went about it in a more scummy way. Can you all please unvote Freeloader for now and wait until some of the more legitimate candidates for your vote continue posting? Others: 35spike1 On June 05 2011 13:57 35spike1 wrote: Good luck have fun! Cherubael's right, I'm not liking freeloader625 at the moment... All the one liners regarding the freeloader post aren’t helping town, it gives the opportunity for scum to fly under the radar and post rubbish like this and getting away with it unchecked. Keeping my eye on 35spike1. Time for a contribution please. Kumuri- Pretty experienced. Very forward with his opinion and is looking at the right people. Definitely the most day1 pro-town person we have at the moment. Amazingxkcd- Stop posting obvious, non contributing shit. “It is quite clear that it can be seen who are the main talkers for both side. The only question is now how to distinguish between the two sides and how to act upon it.” That post has no value whatsoever except as a front for you to appear active. Also, your copy+paste post on the guides to mafia are equally useless. Analysis on the game please, if other people haven’t already read the 4th post on this thread, then it’s their loss. TheAwesomeAll- He made a list, and he’s checking it twice. No big deal, a good way to keep track of people who haven’t contributed much, if anything. Don’t know why people are getting so riled up about it though monsterDrakar? Conclusion/tl;dr: Everyone stop voting forFreeloader and keep your eyes on what Lafali, Cherubael, 35spike1 and Amazingxkcd have to say. /rant In my eyes, he is 100% correct. He did not know about benjef being replaced so I will leave that be. 2nd post You're an experienced player arn't you? Your posts are very pro-town, helpful advice. Pretty sure you're a green, but reserving judgement for now until you share your thoughts on some other players. Who seems the most suspicious to you? I don't understand why people were getting so irate over your haikus, just seems like you're having some fun. ^^ gtrsrs Unless I missed it earlier, can you please elaborate as to why you voted for iGrok? 1st mistake. He was too gullible to answer the stupid question that iGrok made to test the noobies. 3rd post is him proving that Freeloader is lazy. This post should completely put all votes off of him, but for those who stayed on him after that post, they are 95% mafia scum. 4th post is just more discussion from his 3rd post 5th post Freeloader625 + Show Spoiler + What is this? Are you trying to role play as a miller or something?? Stop it. If you're town; please stop posting like this and give us some coherent thoughts. All you're doing at the moment is digging a deeper hole for yourself and making it easier for others to vote for you. -.- @ iGrok I disagree with your player analysis. I think Kumuri is taking a very pro-town initiative by putting a lot of pressure on inexperienced players. It's a good opportunity to gauge reactions and hopefully pick up on a scum slip if the accused can't handle the pressure ^^ Also, the less attention towards blue roles, the better... last thing town needs is an inexperienced playing letting slip his blue role on day1. His analysis of kurumi gives him pro-town vibes as of now. 6th post is him questioning 35Spike1’s voting changes 7th post @rookie44 Hurry up and respond to Alderan's question. Do you still advocate voting for gtrsrs? If so, give us a proper explanation as to why. Saying 'for the reasons above' and 'refering to himself in third person' isn't good enough. If you're not going to vote gtrsrs, then who? And why? Will re-read the thread again to try and get a handle on what's happened the last few hours. Voting closes in 5 hours, right? He is asking rookie to defend himself and why gtrsrs should be voted for. Rookie never quite delivered, but I can’t attack him on that. I am not going to talk any longer since the rest of his posts confirm this pro-town attitude. Verdict is Townie [*] Pyo + Show Spoiler + 1st post Scum will unvote after someone called it out to remain 'unsuspicious". Also why the heck Town would lynch person generating discussion and bringing scummy suspects? Scum would like to lynch me,but they can just kill me at night. I find this hilarious because you got lynched day 1 in the last mafia for being really talkative early on. So either you didn't learn your lesson or you aren't a townie this time. I'm leaning toward the former. Judging solely on my post-hoc analysis of XXXIX in preparation for my first mafia game, in the first cycle, if you give a spot on analysis and make good accusations, mafia will kill you ASAP (chaoser). If you blab a ton, you get lynched (kurumi). After that inactivity gets modkilled or lynched, Confirmed townies become the targets to get mafia killed. It's kind of weird, but the townies who ended up lasting the longest actually had some degree of suspicion on them. I was also surprised by how proactive mafia are about trying to shed suspicion on others early on in the game. In other words, I think this is a totally wrong or misleading statement: On June 05 2011 15:40 Treadmill wrote: I suspect that most of the mafia are gonna be trying to lay low, post only "check-in" posts and whatnot. So keep your eyes peeled for that sort of thing - although, early on, that kinda posting might just mean its midnight and people want to go to bed (so gtsrs and 35spike1 are off the hook for now). Also given how quick people are to lynch the first signs of suspicion, I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of townies especially newer players would try to lay low and get a feel for how the game would play out (that was my plan going in at least). Unless something interesting comes up I'll probably vote for one of the following: freeloader - for his really weird/suspicious defense posts aprudds - for a really arbitrary out of nowhere accusation treadmill - for trying too hard to lay the blame on freeloader Kurumi - because it would be hilarious to lynch someone who is clearly very excited to play this game on the first day two mafia games in a row Did I say that I have been working on this report for 6 hours now? Fuck you guys He makes a true statement about mafia behavior. He also thinks that lynching kurumi would be hilarious. Kurumi didn’t die yet, so here’s to your statement! 2nd post Also, I'm going on a trip for a couple days. I should have internet, but I'm not entirely sure, so I'm going to cast a vote with the intention of changing it later - I just want to get my vote in so i don't get nabbed for inactivity Complete Scummy post. You derailed Treadmill’s post then you are doing what he said mafia would do. Go afk for awhile and make a random lynch. 3rd post @Pyo Because Your arguments are dumb I am going to ignore You. A tip: In mafia XXXIX I was spreading chaos in the Town,also I was really scummy. I wasn't talkative,I was spammy. If You want any meta reads,go check PYPI and PTP. As a noob, it's somewhat difficult to distinguish "talkative" from "spammy". I just threw out a vote for you since (A) I want/need to get my vote out while I can (B) voting for someone who noone else is going to vote for is tantamount to abstaining (C) as someone who definitely has played mafia before, I assumed that amongst noobs, you'd be adequately adept at defending yourself if suspicion actually turned to you (D) I made a post indicating that my vote for you was joke if anything, but since you seem offended i'll change my vote. Also, just out of curiosity, since the game wasn't filled only with noobs, how many people here actually have mafia experience? Fishing for experience, very scummy. 4th post You're not going to participating in lynching the most scummy player Pyo? While I understand place holder votes You need to know that people like me will remember that. I want to see a good post after You're back. He confirmed that freeloader was an innocent since a lot of people jumped away from him, when he said if freeloader was scum, the bandwagon would stay there. Bandwagon did not stay there. Hmmm…And who exactly is the most scummy player? Freeloader? If it freeloader really is a scum and people are all jumping on him, wouldn't other scum try to draw attention away from themselves by sacrificing him? In other words by encouraging others to go for him, or at least promoting mob mentality, isn't that a huge red flag as being scum? Maybe I should change my vote back after all... Are people actually vindictive in mafia? Wouldn't that draw too much attention to themselves? Either way, my apologies, don't kill me off too quick Also, what counts as a "good post"? Maybe point out an example? From what I've seen looking through old mafias is that "good posts" that are too on target, especially early on end up getting you killed. 5th post By the most scummy player I meant Your suspicion. My list wasn't in any particular order. An example of good post would be an analysis pointing out the biggest slips of player X leading Town in a Scum lynch.Remember though: there's nothing wrong about being wrong(unless You're redtooth,then You commit suicide on Day 3) A good post could be summing up who attacked who and who defended who + Your thoughts about it. Everything that generates discussion is good. You must remember though,that without good evidence there's probably no point in bringing something new,because this will cause chaos. Pyo,it is too fast for scum to bus too. what does "bus" mean? Sorry I don't know all the mafia lingo yet. Freeloader's situation is really uncertain. His small,but bandwagon is based on shitty evidence. "He asked a question,no townie would ask it!" Think for a second. What would happen if Freeloader was scum? Someone would pm him and tell him everything he needed to know,makes sense? Hell yes. Are you speaking as an experience mafia player here? I mean his post was less than hour after PMs went out. Do mafia really get organized that fast? I realize that this is murky water since we're not supposed to use our PM times to figure out roles according to the rules. Well, Pyo slipped the fact that he’s mafia with the last sentence. Only mafia can PM, and he just said that people can’t use PMs to figure out roles. Verdict is MAFIA SCUM GO DIE BY A NOOSE!!! [*] Senj + Show Spoiler + I am too tired to do his post as I have been working for 7 hours straight analyzing people, but I will say that from his posts and treadmill’s random derailing of senj, Verdict is TOWNIE [*]Vain + Show Spoiler + 1st post And who exactly is the most scummy player? Freeloader? If it freeloader really is a scum and people are all jumping on him, wouldn't other scum try to draw attention away from themselves by sacrificing him? In other words by encouraging others to go for him, or at least promoting mob mentality, isn't that a huge red flag as being scum? Maybe I should change my vote back after all... Are people actually vindictive in mafia? Wouldn't that draw too much attention to themselves? Either way, my apologies, don't kill me off too quick Also, what counts as a "good post"? Maybe point out an example? From what I've seen looking through old mafias is that "good posts" that are too on target, especially early on end up getting you killed. Hi all. I just read trough all of the post and i must say there has been alot of accusations already. especially with Kurumi barging in and calling almost everyone that has posted a noobtown or a rat. I made a list of what happened the past time so i may as well post it. It may not be complete in the sence of what everyone has said but i think it helps tracing who accused who + Show Spoiler + Ok, Now Kurumi. Bandwagoning is not seen as a mafia only trait. Town joins bandwagons just as easily. For now Freeloader625 would still be my main target. It would give us at this moment the most information about who will be scum and who not. If he would be town it gives us the info that the people who were defending him are likely town. Why would they defend him if they are mafia? Furthermore it would lay suspicion on the people who accused him in the first place. The chance that they are mafia in that case would be alot bigger. If he turns out scum we can pat ourselfs on the back and continue the game with somewhat of a lead. As a last thing to point out. If you are town don't be afraid to post a good analysis that is pointing out weak scum play. It will maybe get you killed but in the end it will help you win. And we all play to win rigt He is asking that the townsfolk put forth some analysis. That should be encouraged regardless, but adding the fact that they may die is a bit fishy. 2nd post My dumbness meter went over 9000. Before saying "HURR DURR YOU DID NOTHING" read my posts. I brought evidence why I think they're scum. On June 05 2011 18:07 Kurumi wrote: Show nested quote + What? Bad lynches are good lynches? Are You a stupid Rat or You're a Noobtown? Lynch is the most IMPORTANT tool town gets. ##vote Treadmill He was actually saying that some evidence for a lynch was better as a random lynch with no suspicion. now i would like to see your compelling evidence and accusations because frankly i have only seen you throwing out accusations and calling people noobtown. He is defending treadmill, despite treadmill saying a mafia statement. Scummy post. 3rd post EDWOP: I meant,let him play by himself,he does not need Your help. The evidence is simple: They support bad lynches,they say that we can waste lynches,they want Town to make quick decision which they didn't think about enough While it is true that they were quick to vote and everyone joined the bandwagon the accusations were very much grounded. The question itself was not very scummy indeed. If i were a scum i would pm it to the host instead of posting it in the thread. + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + Now he is stating that a townie does have reasons to ask such a question what is indeed true. The interesting part of this post is at the second line. He is now telling us "dont mind me, i'm new to the game" and diverting attention off him. Telling you are new and therefore if are doing things out of the ordinary its just your inexperience is at the best not very good town play. + Show Spoiler + Not a very informative or interesting post besides the fact that i can't figure out in which way he was the first to speak These posts and as i stated before the amount of info we can get of this lynch is why he is my main target right now. Do mind that it very well can be that it can be that no mafia has even posted yet so this is more a suspicion of me than a well thought out accusation This post is very ambiguous to me. I do not see any clear directions that he is trying to take. 4th post Bolded part is very misguided play. Lynching for information, especially on day 1, is very weak. Taking into account the context, lynching freeloader for information is even weaker. The chance that he's mafia is very low, and if he flips green we have no usable information. The underlined question is very very easy to answer. Mafia always defend townies that they think will get mislynched. Why wouldnt they? It gives them free town cred. All we would get by lynching freeloader for information is a likely dead green and a pile of WIFOM. Well to me a small suspicion to lynch is always better than no suspicion. I'm not saying he is 100% mafia but at the moment i don't see any better alternatives. Do mind that we are also playing with new players so i don't think what you are suggesting is very probable. He tries to cover up his mistakes by saying that there is no other alternatives for suspects and that is partially true. But his last sentence takes away from his post by adding the noobies as a reason to disregard information. 5th post Well, posting cute little haikus and being funny can lead to the suspicion that you have some kind of interest in being considered funny and friendly. Also, if you don't agree to that, why will you stop doing that now? It's not like gtrsrs can impose rules on how you have to post. Well now we know that the mafia has an own thread or something like that. i think we can surely say iGrock was just doing it to stand out/fun/boredom. Nothing of note was said. We already knew that Mafia has their own threads. He is trying to make it seem like he is noob as well. I really do not like the actions taken by this guy, and I will not delve deeper because I cannot make a serious case for him now. Verdict is SUSPICIOUS UNKNOWN [*] Kurumi + Show Spoiler + KURUMI DOES NOT NEED AN EXPLANATION AND HE CAN DEFEND HIMSELF FINE. HE IS TOWNIE [*] Jackal58 [SPOILER] ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bp2Ym.jpg) FREELOADER: Aw crap, what is Amazingxkcd doing right now? [CENTER]Jackal58 seems to be shifting in his seat, and tries to remain calm. He knows that he solidified his position on the Town Council despite mishaps from his henchmen that Amazingxkcd pointed out. He now knows that the case against him could cost Jackal his life, so he stands up and points to Amazingxkcd, shouting “You can’t prove anything on me!”[CENTER] ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/rpyGV.jpg) [CENTER]Amazingxkcd looks around the room, smiling and says “Now, this the biggest case I will attempt to make”, He turns over to Jackal58, and retorts to the shouts “Why are you shouting? We both know that you are the Godfather of the Mafia here, no need to complain about it.” People look around the room dazed and confused, some enraged, others interested in the accusations.[CENTER] ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ktpdA.jpg) Let’s start by 1st talking about how I came to this realization. It all started when I proposed that Kurumi could have been a gf since he is unafraid of a DT check. Later, A lot of suspicious created a bandwagon on me, but I did not see one person in particular; Jackal. Many people adore and worship this man, and he seems to gloat at that based by the tone in his posts. Without further ado, I will prove my point. 1st post Soory I just noticed this is for noobs. /out Have fun guys He originally did not want to play in this game. Since this game was for noobies only, when why did he stay in? Did the mods not catch that phrase, or was it because he thought he would get a boring role. 2nd post Back /IN What made him want to play this game? Did he realize that he could have fun with the noobs and see how much chaos he can make? I do not know the answers to that, but we shall continue. 3rd post I hate to be 'that guy' who makes a goodbye post and then comes back a couple weeks later... but dammit I miss this shit. /in I would NEVER do that. He just contradicted himself in the abstract sense. He signed up, then decided to back once he saw the audience was for the noobs, but then in the next post, He signs back in. Even though the time lapse was not a couple of weeks as per se of GCQ, Jackal58 had the same attitude that GCQ had when he signed up. 5th post are just words of encouragement to the mod, who had an SAT test (I had to take it too on same day ) 6th post As a noob, it's somewhat difficult to distinguish "talkative" from "spammy". I just threw out a vote for you since (A) I want/need to get my vote out while I can (B) voting for someone who noone else is going to vote for is tantamount to abstaining (C) as someone who definitely has played mafia before, I assumed that amongst noobs, you'd be adequately adept at defending yourself if suspicion actually turned to you (D) I made a post indicating that my vote for you was joke if anything, but since you seem offended i'll change my vote. Also, just out of curiosity, since the game wasn't filled only with noobs, how many people here actually have mafia experience? I have played 1 or 2 games with iGrok and Kurumi. Numerous games with GGQ. Kurumi's assertion that I am very good is a bit off the mark. I'm actually pretty average at best. Day 1 & 2 I pretty much suck. I'm better towards end game but I usually don't live that long. Kurumi is insane. I've never seen anybody tunnel the entire player roster at one time before. iGrok I really don't have an opinion on yet. Seems capable. GGQ is scum. If I don't do that at least once a game he'd be disappointed. (That's a joke) The rest of you I do not know. I promised Meapak I'd be good this game. Don't worry about "offending" somebody by voting for them. If they're that easily offended they need to go watch Barney or Teletubbies. He attempts to downplay his skill level by stating he sucks day 1 and day 2. He is also shocked by Kurumi’s accusations against everyone. He called this tunneling. (remember this). iGrok is somewhat recognizable to him. GCQ and he apparently have a history together. FIRST MAJOR CLUE 2 BULLETS WERE FIRED AT GCQ IN NIGHT 1. Now, let’s get into analysis mode. He jokingly calls GCQ scum. GCQ has not really made any major attacks but Jackal here knows that GCQ can rat him out with good skill if Jackal were to be mafia. If we assume that we knew about GCQ’s skill level, then why does GCQ present a big threat to Jackal? GCQ has not once even talked about Jackal’s analysis yet. Remember, 2 Bullets were fired. If we say that each bullet means 1 kp, then the Mafia really wanted GCQ dead. No one besides Jackal had any idea about who GCQ was, only Jackal knew about GCQ. Jackal was also sure that no medics would go protect GCQ because GCQ himself did not make himself a prominent target. He also insults all of the first-timers here with his last statement that the weak people can go watch preschool programs if they can’t handle pressure. 7th quote On June 05 2011 23:08 Pyo wrote:Are people actually vindictive in mafia? Wouldn't that draw too much attention to themselves? Either way, my apologies, don't kill me off too quick Yes. Very much so. And it goes from game to game. As most of you are new I don't expect to see much of it in this game but people do carry grudges and exact revenge in their next game together. The most likely thing you will see here is some townie with a vig role shooting anther townie that just pissed him off. That happens when a noob has a gun. Just because you don't like somebody doesn't mean they are scum. If you are a vig please don't allow emotion to pull the trigger. Jackal makes this quote in response to a question that Pyo has regarding emotions in playing mafia. Jackal responds by saying that it would be a noobish thing to use emotions to make important decisions, particularly if one is a vigilante and he wants to exact revenge. Then why was GCQ killed? Jackal calls GCQ scum at the beginning of the game, meaning that GCQ has had some background history with Jackal, and that they have been at opposite teams before. I do not know what happened in the previous games, but if GCQ was quiet, then why would he be dead? This only possible link that can be stablished at this time is that Jackal has revenge to enact on GCQ. No one else in the thread has mentioned any relationships with him nor has he stated any besides his with Jackal. Very scummy things going on in the background. 8th post I believe this is Kurumi's 4th game. Maybe counting a mini game. He was lynched day one in the first game I played with him. He has outed himself as our SK in the second game I've played with him. Don't assume he's experienced. He's not. Here, Jackal attempts to put down Kurumi as a potential townie by stating that his extreme tunneling is the result of Kurumi being a stupid player. I do know that Kurumi is playing quite smart, as he knows that the only way to generate leads is to apply pressure. Kurumi applies the pressure on a lot of people. He gets a lot of accusation, but he defended them all with ease. Jackal recognizes this and post background history of kurumi to label kurumi as an idiot. 9th post On June 06 2011 01:27 DeMorcerf wrote:I do not understand what you mean by this, sorry. Can you clarify whether "insane" is a good thing or a bad thing in this context; and what does "tunnel the roster" mean? Insane as in crazy. Not good at all. Tunneling is when you pick one player and call him/her scum for the entire game. Kurumi has taken it to an entirely new level. This is a response to a question asked by DeMorcerf. Jackal uses this as a chance to further degrade Kurumi. Kurumi has not tunneled anyone at all, he has changed his stances on many as a result of what happened. Jackal did not know about this and states what has been true based on what happened so far. This is a mistake that Jackal has committed. 10th post + Show Spoiler + Day 1 in a game this size is always a cluster fuck. Things will start to sort themselves out after day is over. Fishing for blues is a scummy thing to do. So don't do it. There are a variety of things town can do that have the ability to catch scum. I am not going to share them though. If I do that scum won't fall for them. PM games are easier to set up traps but they aren't impossible in a non PM game. Scum have the advantage of information and communication. If you post the link to your scum channel it would give everybody new to the game a chance to see how you operate. Rookie has not been analyzed by Jackal nor by anyone. Jackal sees this as an advantage and uses this to initially create a fake sense of aura around him. After rookie was lynched, everyone said that Rookie was just a noobie who didn’t know really the strategies in this game. Jackal knew that what Rookie said was a mistake and told the whole world that rookie is probably a scum since he is technically fishing for blues. 11th post So how common is it for townies to vote for/ lynch day1 people that they just don't like or find annoying? I mean in the face no real evidence for or against anyone is it worth it to eliminate inactive or annoying players? It happens. Not a lot but it happens. Vigis shooting people they don't like also happens. I hate when it happens. Mafia is first and foremost a numbers game. When town can stay ahead of the curve town wins. When people start pushing for lynches because somebody is a pain in the ass (Guilty) it puts town in a very bad position. Jackal has yet to make a complete analysis of anyone yet. He has only hinted on Kurumi and set up a scene to take down Rookie. This quote is the same basis as the 7th quote listed above, that emotions can mess people up. He even mentions that he himself is guilty of the things he said. He has been guilty. Perhaps he got mad at someone. Perhaps he got mad at GCQ. See what I am trying to do here? A clear connection has now been established between GCQ and Jackal, let us not forget ever. 12th post Although I can understand most of your points, don't you think there needs to be a way of keeping track of inactives? It's a 40 person game and without some type of spreadsheet or list it will be hard to keep track of the lurkers. I think your taking it too personally. If you don't like the list he made why not contribute to it so we can all keep track of everyone instead of jumping the gun? Inactives will be mod killed. Not worth tracking. It's lurkers you want to keep a tab on. People that post just the minimum. They usually pop in to proclaim they aren't lurking right after you mention their name. Those are the ones you want to watch for. Also the ones that post excuses in advance. I'm not talking about a guy that says on day 3 "I won't be able to get online until tomorrow night" I'm talking about the ones that come in and say "I have finals this week so I'll not be very active" Dunno if you see the difference or not but if you can't play why did you sign up? Jackal is now trying to mislead the town into automatically attacking the lurkers rather than being suspicious about the talkative people in the game. Since this is a noob game, the crappy mafias will try to lurk as much as possible. Jackal also knows that there are also a lot of townies that are lurking as well and he is doing the standard mafia tactics of “spreading the chaos”. Throughout this post, he does not make a reference to himself, as he had in his last post. He is also attacking the noobs who did not know what the structures of this game will be like. 13th post is restatement of voting rules. He says this to pressure those who haven’t voted yet to go and vote. The Mods could have done this themselves, but Jackal took it upon himself to look all mighty and important. 14th post is an addition that voting is done only in day time. This is the 1st post that I can’t find evidence for my case, good job Jackal. 15th post Rest assured guys. Town has the collective IQ of a brick on day 1. Myself included. 'Tis the nature of the beast. Jackal has still yet to give decent analysis of anyone or of any situations besides the one of Rookie. He hasn’t even commentated on freeloader’s case yet. He goes to say that the Town is playing dumb, and then just sneaks in that he is with the town. If he was a true townie, he would have said “we townies have an IQ of a brick”. 16th post After reading the posts up to now, I am reasonably confident that freeloader is probably a townie and the ambiguity of early accusers and their motivations means that there's not much to be learned from lynching him, although it might be inevitable at this point. Since his post in his defense haven't really been all that constructive anyway it isn't really a big loss, so I'm not gonna fight it. The players that I find annoying are by far Haiku boy and Kurumi. So if ever I'm undecided about who to vote for it'll probably be one of them. I think it is interesting to note all the little 1v1 bickering going on, the most recent example of which is between iGrok and gtrsrs. I think it is reasonable to assume that two mafia wouldn't orchestrate a mini feud this early on, which means that either both are town or only one is town. So combining my last 2 paragraphs, I think I'm gonna have to change my vote to iGrok. See my previous post on annoying players. If you are going to approach this game as an exercise in the elimination of those that annoy you I will be more than happy to arrange for your lynching. We're not here to lynch people that annoy us. We're here to kill scum. Put your ego in a box and get your head in the game please. You'll probably find me to be much more annoying than iGrok. And I don't do haiku. Jackal attacks Pyo for making a bad vote on emotions. Jackal is right, but he also adds that Pyo has a case of bad ego. Jackal then goes on to mentions that He could be more worse than iGrok. He is already predicting about the future when Pyo finds out that Jackal is the Godfather, but he will not be able to prove it now. 17th post On June 06 2011 21:57 iGrok wrote: Hey Jackal, good to see you again. Mind going over my Kurumi analysis? I couldn't analyze Kurumi to save my life. We need a psychiatrist for that. He is playing identically to the other two games I have had the pleasure of being in with him. His posts do at times contain substance but it's very hard to pick out from all the background noise. I think our best bet with him is to watch his voting history. He will eventually call all of us scum before this game is over so his FoS posts are pretty much useless. Jackal has stated in his previous posts that Kurumi is an idiot and is insane. That qualifies as a psychiatrist analysis to me. Here, he seems to forget about his previous rants against Kurumi and tries to rephrase his stance in a more appealing sense to iGrok, who probably have no suspicions on Jackal at this point. Kurumi stopped calling everyone scum, so Jackal’s predictions are wrong. More people are also starting to listen to Kurumi now that he had calmed down. His voting history can be watched, but it will not matter for Jackal. 18th post As his post concerning kurumi 's behavior had helped, i am concerned with this statement. iGrok has listed a couple of seasoned players whom he reconizes for their experiences, but here he is already jumping to the conclusion that he had no reason to suspect them, especially jackal whom only made a post spectulating. It seems to be that iGrok is quite convinced that kurumi is a scum as he already asked for a dt check rather than trust the dts to make the right decisions. About jackal, i do not know much about him as he has not stated a lot yet, but iGrok is showing us that he is in league with jackal as from the podt above. As of now, i do not want to label iGrok as scum, and i'd rather wait until later to see what jackal says and how the game flows, but iGrok is still suspicious. If iGrok is convicted as scum, then that puts pressure on jackal to respond. Day one and two I don't post a lot of analysis. I'm pretty much clueless. I will ask questions. I will point out discrepancies and misinterpretations. Day 1 I like to pick one or two players and tunnel the hell out of them. I'm looking for reactions. Not just from the person I'm tunneling but from everybody else as well. Scum love when I tunnel. I love when they vote for my victim. I usually don't have a lynch worthy case on them until day 3 though. I also promised Meapak I'd behave myself this game so I'm not going to do that because my tunneling style is quite aggressive and abrasive. I've been known to make people rage. As far as connecting iGrok and myself good luck with that. You might as well connect everybody that has asked another player a question. Kurumi is an excellent DT check. He's damn near impossible to read. I would also point out that it is entirely likely that of the 3 or 4 people in this game (myself included) that do have experience playing here at least 1 of them is on the scum team. That person isn't me but don't take my word for it. If I were scum I'd lie to you in a heartbeat. Just bear that in mind if you guys feel compelled to lynch me or scum kills me at night. When I flip green look really hard at GGQ and iGrok. Jackal is still trying to convey this sense that he is a crappy player. This is a mistake for him. However, the Biggest mistake he made in this post is the last sentence. GCQ died, flipping as a green. Jackal has yet to prove why GCQ should be looked at, and shows that he is against GCQ for no reason. GCQ died with 2 bullets, so we should be looking very hard at Jackal for the reasons that he is against GCQ without reasons. 19th post On June 06 2011 23:48 Benjef wrote: Hm, I'm starting to fall off of this Freeloader band wagon. But hes only had the one post to try and protect himself? And I still don't see the point of him asking the question if he didn't apply to him. And besides Kurumi why are you protecting him so much? Because it's terrible lynch based on "he asked question townie would never ask" evidence. His lynch will give no info and there are more scummy people here to lynch. Who? I'm not calling Freeloader scum I'm asking you who in your opinion is scummier? Jackal is making a wild post at kurumi when he has shown no history in his posts to talk directly to kurumi. This indicates that Jackal could be smurfing hardcore. Also, he is trying to figure out what is Kurumi really gunning for, and also to make sure it is not Jackal himself. 20th post smurfing? @_@ I responded to Benjef and got Jackal's response? I asked you a question based upon your assertion. Problem. Just remember DT's if you check the GF you will get a townie return. MASSIVE MISTAKE HERE. How do we know what role the GF will choose to appear as? He can appear as a vigi, a DT, or even as a Medic for all he cares. Jackal says the GF will return as a townie. There is only one way to know this. You are the Godfather. All DT checks on Jackal will return as Townie, and Jackal is showing that he knows about it. 21st post is Him waiting for a response from Kurumi to see what is Kurumi’s objective. 22nd post is Him continue to ask for this. Why is Jackal pressuring for this information? Why did he ask 3-4 times already for the same things? Jackal is now afraid that Kurumi can’t be targeted at all of now. 23rd post. Jackal states Kurumi’s game history. Jackal already stated this. I have still yet to see a complete analysis by Jackal. 24th post I have one favour to ask of you: Some people are cluttering the thread, an example would be the exchange between jackal and kurumi, I wrote some unnecessary one liners too. Lets reduce our posting to helpful deiscussion. kurumi: Come back with an analysis of gtrsr or tell us more in depth why lafali is scummy in your opinion. jackal58:Make an analysis of kurumi or let him write a real post before attacking him again. I think we need to stop cluttering the thread. How many years would you like me to wait for his answer? Jackal is starting to slip here, he’s showing signs of agitations. Jackal is now angry with Kurumi, but I now wonder why Kurumi wasn’t killed by Jackal if Jackal did not any signs like this when dealing with GCQ. 25th post If Freeloader flips scum Kurumi is scum. If Freeloader flips town it means nothing. Ok, how can Jackal knows that Kurumi is scum if Freeloader is scum? If freeloader is scum, then Kurumi isn’t necessary that of a scum. Jackal then adds the second sentence as a insurance policies to himself. If Freeloader flips townie, then Kurumi is townie and most of the bandwagoners is scummy. Why does Jackal not say that? He lied here, and we know Mafia has to lie to win this game. 26th post is Jackal saying that he seen scum hanged on day 1. This shows his level of experience at the game. Post 27 is Jackal calling Impervious a scum and post 28 is responding to a question. Impervious has been proven by me to be a townie, so this goes to further prove that Jackal is scum himself. 28th post has shown that Jackal has history of playing with Impervious. We already know about his history with iGrok and GCQ. 29th post is his first attack You guys want to vote for scum? Vote this guy - rookie44: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=9611408 Has played before so he has an idea how it works. Very subtle in his fishing for blues. Only scum fish for blues. Wants to know what methods and tactics are used to catch scum. Wants us to share them with everybody. Claims it will help derail scum tactics. When it will obviously do the opposite. Has all but disappeared since this post. I'm sure he'll show up momentarily to tell me how full of shit I am. That's where my vote is going. I would recommend you all do the same. People has been throwing around many accusations and they seemed to fly under Jackal’s nose. But I have stated that he set up this accusations of rookie before to make it seem that people didn’t listen to him much. But then, Why did Jackal let everything else pass? That would be considered lurking in every aspect. 30th post You guys are all voting for noobs making noob posts. Vote for scum not dumb. Lame attempt by Jackal to derail everyone in the thread and create the bandwagon on rookie to create more chaos. 31st post On June 07 2011 05:47 TranceStorm wrote: Show nested quote + Would you mind doing a post-by-post analysis of rookie44's posts? (There are only 3) Right now I can't really see how subtly he is fishing for blues. After all, we don't know how experienced he really is, so I would like a little more clarification as to your accusation. We'll start with the post I linked: On June 06 2011 04:22 rookie44 wrote: Hey guys, This is all getting a bit out of hand, we seem to already be getting in each others faces over perceived (and real) sleights. I have only played mafia on battle.net, and this is going to be quite a different game to that. Only real difference is timing. Tactics are the same What i believe is the crucial difference is that we have large amounts of time for discussion. This also gives us the time to create a solid plan for using whatever roles we have effectively (it would seem that way). This is role fishing. He's wanting people to post their roles and tell him how they intend to use them. At the very least he's hoping a noob would post something along the lines of I'm a DT. Who should I check Maybe some of the more experienced players could expand on what investigative stratagies they have used; their pitfalls, and how we may evade those pitfalls. This is saying "I am scum. How are you guys going to catch me? It's called a scum slip Perhaps an added benifit will be that it will be very tricky for a mafia to come up with a generalized stratagy that is grounded in reason, so maybe there will be some suspiciously quiet people. (I assume it will be difficult for a generalized stratagy becasue i can only see the mafia being able to take advantage of a specific stratagy by getting their peolpe in the right places). This is just bullshit trying to provide a townie reason for asking. My analysis in red. This guy is scum. Now he makes an analysis of rookie. However, the analysis could have been made by anyone and the level of details is very low, yet it is only now that he brings it up. Rookie was a noobie. His posts were noobish. Jackal transformed that into a level of scummish by using catchphrases to attack Rookie. Like I said, the analysis was nowhere as detailed as other detailed analysis were. 32nd post is to make Alderan seem a buddy with rookie when all Alderan noted was that Rookie’s statements are ambigious. Jackal latches more suspicion onto rookie and tries to spread that suspicions around, setting up the town for a bandwagonning lynch. In all, I have without a doubt, proved my stance on Jackal58, and without a doubt, know that Jackal is now acting as the Godfather for the game. Verdict GODFATHER | ||
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amazingxkcd
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
[*]Kairo + Show Spoiler + [*] omgCRAZY + Show Spoiler + [*] gtrsrs + Show Spoiler + [*] iGrok + Show Spoiler + [*] tdAdonis + Show Spoiler + [*] aprudds + Show Spoiler + [/list] [/SPOILER] Finals Thoughts I have listed my reasoning for most of the players, but because of the time involved in doing I will finish the last few people, though they know who they are. I am 100% confident that my analysis is spot on and 100% confident that people who read this will agree with me. Only you mafia scum have anything to fear from reading. Because of this report, I have decided my vote and I will do a TL:DR version of this report as well soon ##:Jackal58 | ||
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amazingxkcd
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
This is my big analysis i promised to bring towards all who wanted it from me. Remember townies, you have nothing to fear, only the mafia should be scared of the information inside here. This took me 9 hours to write, which explains my inactivity during this time. Gnite! I would finish the analysis in the morning, though i will say that iGrok, you are playing a bit too dumb here. Play smarter. | ||
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aprudds
Canada144 Posts
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Treadmill
Canada2833 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On June 09 2011 10:31 heist wrote: Ok before the bandwagon on iGrok starts to get too much momentum, I felt like I had to intervene. The evidence is much too inconclusive. Sprungjeezy is looking at his posts through a mafia bias and I will try to do the opposite to provide some measure of balance. Mine will be in italics (btw sry i couldnt get through the formatting issues of the last parts of the post) On June 08 2011 23:43 Sprungjeezy wrote: My Analysis of iGrok + Show Spoiler + On June 05 2011 15:36 iGrok wrote: In the shadows lies A peculiar type of Man Kuze is my name. In this game, I will start all of my posts with haikus. Enjoy ^^ He has plenty of reasons to be a townie. Don't even think about that kind of McCarthy Bullshit this early in the game. Anyone voting this early deserves some measure of suspicion. Also, I am schwasted, so this may not make a lot of sense. (White Russians are the best!) But. If you are new to mafia, welcome. A quick word of advice: Think before you act. Those people who have already voted are acting too hastily. a 40 man game is much more about reasoning than putting pressure on someone. And the only reason you would vote this early is to put pressure on someone. Things to note about this game: Detectives instead of watchers: This gives us hard checks (with a few exceptions) on who is scum/town. Town needs to know this information, and we need to keep it out of the hands of mafia. For new players, this is where crumbing comes in. Crumbing is leaving clues about what you want to say. The best crumbs will be deciphered by us and not by scum. However, crumbs can be used a different way, in that you leave crumbs no one can decipher and then reveal multiple crumbs later. This is good if you are new because often times no one can understand your crumbs anyways since you don't have experience. Vigilantes: Need to not use your shots immediately. You are MUCH more likely to hit a civilian than scum at first, and also more likely to caus confusion. Those are the two most important roles this game. Regarding discussion: Freeloader is probably not scum. He is new and likely inexperienced. However, just to be sure, a cop needs to check him tonight. Which reminds me: If a miller is roleblocked, what does he return to investiagtion? Anyways, many good ideas floating around for a newbie game :p Keep up the good work I believe it is always good to start off the game by knowing who's good, who's new, and who's annoying. Some people read previously played games to get a better read, but as this is a new game, most won't look further than this. A nice long post that defends the very quick accusations against Freeloader625, a pretty neutral post. One of his first posts is to warn people to not bandwagon early on in the game especially with such little evidence. Other than Aril he’s one of the earliest people to defend Freeloader. I would say that’s more than neutral and obviously pro-town behavior. + Show Spoiler + On June 05 2011 16:29 iGrok wrote: Olol. No haiku this time. Pardon the wino in the corner. Yes, it is green and not blue. EBWOP: Change to green. O shit, a post without a Haiku but pretty irrelevant at this time. I agree. Irrelevant. + Show Spoiler + On June 05 2011 16:29 iGrok wrote: Olol. No haiku this time. Pardon the wino in the corner. Yes, it is green and not blue. EBWOP: Change to green. Another irrelevant post, but continuing to have a presence. Important for people to see him. Insignificant. + Show Spoiler + On June 05 2011 18:14 iGrok wrote: Two threads, Two places Vote in one, not the other Or you may mislead. Just fyi, voting in the Thread and not in the voting thread is considered scummy at higher levels of play. I will of course excuse you since you are new, but I'm trying to help you out here - if you're going to vote, then vote, but make sure you know what you're doing. Make sure you read my post. Also, again with the bullshit McCarthyism - This is VERY anti-town, and if you're a menace to town, promoting anti-town play, its in our best interest to remove you from the game if we have no strong mafia targets. tl;dr: CTFO + Show Spoiler + Chill The Fuck Out Starts to get interesting somewhat. Note he denounces Kurumi's valid post against Jimboo (who I previously considered if he was mafia, but believe he is just a very-almost-too active townie). Also accuses Kurumi of being anti-town. You read this wrong. Kurumi criticizes Treadmill who states that lynching somebody with some evidence of scum is better than lynching someone without any evidence. Yes, he accuses Kurumi as being anti-town but you yourself admit to having some thought of Kurumi being mafia. We can all see iGrok’s reasoning (after all I think all everyone at some point has considered Kurumi as mafia). Kurumi is acting really aggressive, is quick to vote, and is pointing fingers everywhere. Now none of this is conclusive of being mafia, but it is certainly not pro-town behavior which iGrok is pointing out. Nothing scummy about iGrok at this point. + Show Spoiler + On June 05 2011 18:21 iGrok wrote: The more that you yell, The more attention you get. Keep up the noise, Joe [/sarcasm] Even if you are town, and its too early to throw accusations out, you're playing TERRIBLY anti-town. Again, Chill. Again makes Kurumi out to be very anti-town. Yes, he calls out Kurumi again. Is this suspicious? No. iGrok is staying consistent with his warnings to Kurumi that his wild accusations and rude posts only hurt his credibility if he is town. + Show Spoiler + On June 05 2011 18:31 iGrok wrote: No haiku for this, The point is too short for one. Just a simple note Do shit like this, you're going to piss people off. Pissing people off is a good way to die. Dying does not help your team at all (at least in this game). You know this, you've played several games. Don't fuck over the newbies because you want to be obnoxious. As far as your "slips" go: Lafali, from what I can tell, is a newbie who bandwagonned, read my post warning against bandwagons, and unvoted. Treadmill: He said we should wait, and every point of evidence is important no matter how small. Great reason to vote him. Point grew after I wrote the haiku :p Starts getting interesting. He defends Lafali as a nooby and defends Treadmill (who begin to reason as scum lately). Yes he defended lafali but at this early point in the game lafali is not clear mafia. This can go either way depending on which propaganda mill you subscribe to. If you assume he’s town,perhaps he’s gratified that someone listened to his advice about bandwagoning and unvoted. If he is town, lafali can very well look like an unexperienced townie who just voted too early. If you assume he’s mafia, then of course you’ll make the leap from “iGrok defended a member of the mafia” therefore it’s very likely that he is mafia. His defense of lafali is inconclusive at best of whether or not he’s mafia or not. Don’t read too much into it. + Show Spoiler + On June 05 2011 23:54 iGrok wrote: Pay no heed to us Prior warnings of misdeeds. Vote without a post. again, [/sarcasm] Drazerk, you did NOT just read the thread, SEE that people were warned against voting without posting, and then vote without posting. Right? Calls out Drazerk for not posting before voting. Boring. Yes. It’s boring, but it’s important for the town to pressure people who vote without any explanation. + Show Spoiler + On June 06 2011 07:57 iGrok wrote: My Final Haiku: I guess fun is not allowed. Srs Bsns. You, sir, have no sense of fun. So let me get this straight - your reason for voting me is "Thread Derailment" and not wanting to vote for treadmill? You do realize you could just -wait- to vote, right? Honestly, those are some of the worst reasons to vote that I can think of. Particularly since your post is, aside from your "evidence" against me, just a regurgitation of other posts. Post some analysis, and good analysis not just bullshit like the above post. You may be thinking, "Why haven't you (iGrok) posted strong analysis yet then?" And knowng you, and probably kurumi as well, there probably a "Scum!" (or "Rat!") thrown in there. The reason is that last night there was nothing to analyze yet, but I saw that the town was disintegrating really fast and I had to step up to try to stop that from happening. May analysis will come after 24 hours of game time, no sooner or later. I will focus on one person, selected without bias, and attempt to ascertain through their posts what their alignment is. Anyone who remembers me from Experiment Mafia 2, I was Pink2 - You remember my analysis of Blue, and how strong that was. In closing, BE PATIENT. Talk, yes, Discuss, yes. Accuse, especially with as little actual substance has happened so far, no. Again getting into a good towny position. Getting into a good towny position is what a townie wants to do. A mildly relevant post now as I am putting together evidence for us to consider if iGrok is scum. iGrok then tells him it was his last haiku. Vain explains that iGrok just wants attention and iGrok thanks him. iGrok points out an edited post to mods. iGrok makes a small tip on quoting. iGrok tells someone not to report to mods but to let us self-moderate. These last several posts aren't exactly worth much, but could serve to make it further clear that he is an experienced player to say the least. CrjNinja posts some good analysis and condemns Lafali and naming Freeloader and Kurumi green. iGrok asks Crj's opinion of himself (of iGrok). Crj says he is an experienced player and says iGrok might be green but wants to wait until he makes any worth while post. All I can really gleam from this is that he’s staying consistent to what’s he’s posted before. And yes, he is using the experience card. Is this necessarily a scummy thing to do? No. It can help him if he’s town OR if he’s mafia. And from our past experience with Jackal, we all realize what a powerful tool a claim to experience can be. So again, this purely depends on which bias one uses to analyze iGrok. So far we have learned that iGrok first day has been utterly passive and is following his statement that he will not post anything worthwhile until after day 1, but has instead been using his time to get in our good graces by not stepping on any one's shoes as he wants to be liked by everyone. Currently (at the time of the above posts) I am kind of annoyed by him, but he seems like a very good player (even though he hasn't actually posted anything). I don’t agree at all he’s being passive. He’s putting himself out there as being pro-town. Personally I think he fancies himself as the voice of reason amid the chaos of the freeloader bandwaggoning. Nothing wrong with that. Also, the claim that he’s careful not to step on anyone’s shoes is also incorrect. He had no problem rebuking Kurumi early on. Overall, I found him to be consistent with his posts and also pro-town. I can already hear your whispers of “maybe too pro-town”. But again I stress this entirely depends on which bias you take. Maybe he’s pro-town because he is town? iGrok now posts about how he will post a big analysis soon. iGrok explains how redFF isn't actually playing the game. WARNING BIG POST – finally iGrok's big analysis post. This should be fun. + Show Spoiler + On June 06 2011 15:18 iGrok wrote: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fWwZu.jpg) Its time for some analysis. For Science. EDITED MY OWN SPOILERS SO YOU CAN SKIP THE NOOB GUIDE + Show Spoiler + This post will be long. And split into two parts. The first part will be setup analysis. The second part will be a post-by-post analysis of Kurumi. There will be no tl;dr. Welcome to Mafia ^^. Let's begin. Setup: 40 players. 1/5 are scum. Scum have 4 kp N1, and D1 is rarely a scum lynch (sad but true). However, there are medics and vets, so assume D2: 36 players - 28 Town 8 scum, or .222 scum. Now we're getting somewhere. Because of the scum %, which is slightly high for a large game (large games tend to help scum get lost in the noise), and based on Town traditionally having more PRs anyways, I guarantee tht Town has a greater number of PRs. Probably 150-250%. I'll analyze Scum roles first so we can get a rough estimate of the number of blue roles. 8 Scum. 1 GF. There are definitely not more than 50% PRs on the red team. That would be absurd for a newbie-friendly game. Therefore, 2-3 RBs. 3 RBs is a little high, so I'll guesstimate 2. This leave us with 3 PRs on scum. Blue Roles Detective: In this game, Detectives (Also known as Cops and DTs) check Role in addition to alignment. This makes DT a VERY powerful role. However, there is probably more than 1 - having only one makes the game to easy to be swung with a lucky snipe. Therefore, I'd guess there are 2 DTs. Medics and Vets: Lately, theres been a tendency to display both but only give out one or the other of these roles. In this case, however, I will assume both. Likely 2 Medics (for the same reason as 2 DTs - if one gets sniped thats just bad luck) and 1 Vet. Veterans kind of get their own kind of weighting when it comes to balancing teams. You know it will be useful if town is losing, but it does nothing active to help them. Veterans help to stabilize the game and make it less swing-y, which is exactly what you want for a newbie game. Lastly, Vigilantes. Knowing Meapak, theres at least one, probably 2 Vigilantes. Vigilantes can be the town saviors. Particularly in a game like this, the faster we can whittle down Mafia KP the better off we'll be. Vigis should take note of who presses for and opposes a lynch, and when we see the results, act accordingly - probably NOT before N2 though. Note that I do not count vets toward Power Role balance because they are so weak. Also Vigis only count for 75% of a PR because they can do more harm than good. Role cops, on the other hand, count for 150% of a PR. Yes, they are that strong. Black Roles Traditionally, Black roles are 3rd party, but since there aren't any sks, I'm counting Miller as a black role. Miller is the bane of any cop. Every check you make that comes back Goon is less usefull. You can't confirm that he's anti town (though feel free to pressure them and see if they crack!). Millers count as -50% of a PR to Town. I would be VERY surprised if there were more than 1 Miller in this game, and certainly not more than two. So, in summary: 5 Goons, 2 RBs, 1 GF = 3 PRs 2 DTs, 2 Medics, 1 Vet, 2 Vigis = 6.5 PRs 1 Miller = -.5 PRs Total of 6:3 - Perfect - 200% Is that guaranteed to be accurate? No. But its probably pretty close. Now on to Analysis! Today's subject is Kurumi. The black does not mean I think he's a miller, it means I don't know yet. So, post by post: Manages to insult Freeloader and defend him at the same time. His next move, searching for bandwagonners, is a good idea, although its really not too hard to search through the 6 post long vote thread :p. Nothing to really note here except attitude. This is either a misread or a mislead. I immediately noted 2 things here: the ridiculously aggressive attitude was one. Treadmill is saying here that we need to use every bit of evidence, and that at the moment we had very little but it was enough to start. I might not have completely agreed with Treadmill, but I didn't think he was scum because of it. Kurumi is apparently convinced enough by this post that Treadmill is scum to vote - after he's yelled at others for voting based on little to no evidence. Literally this is what happened: Lafali says "aprudds has a point, but it could mean nothing. Fortunately, its not the end of the world if we fuck up." Kurumi continues his hyper-aggression. Lafali's post meant nothing - he may as well have not posted. Based on this, Kurumi accuses Lafali of being scum.+ Show Spoiler + Granted, it was a useless post - a scummy thing to do with good player meta, but as a newbie Lafali probably felt (s)he should contribute something. This should be pretty self-explanatory. + Show Spoiler [In case its not,] + More hyper-aggression This is actually a very interesting post. As you can see, Kurumi is mis-representing both Lafali and Treadmill. Neither of them "advocate mis-lynches", they simply stated that a mislynch was ok, and even probable. Neither of them are anti-town, and Treadmill is actually playing pro-town. This is a very true post. That is precisely what scum wants. Its important to note that scum also wants to cause as much chaos in the town as possible as well. Just read it. The one super-pro-town thing he's done all game! Catching silent voters is SUPER important, particularly in a large game like this. Pyo calls him out, Kurumi admits to spreading chaos in the town the game before. Pyo asks Kurumi for a list of "experienced players" On June 05 2011 22:45 Kurumi wrote: Jackal58 - he is very good GGQ - I think he is there for at least short while Me Impervious from replacements played a bit there too gtrsrs played one game I think. You're not going to participating in lynching the most scummy player Pyo? While I understand place holder votes You need to know that people like me will remember that. I want to see a good post after You're back. Jackal58 is good. GGQ is good, borderline very good (no offense Jackal ♥). Vain is good. I'd like to think I'm decent. Impervious is... interesting haha. Kurumi has played 3 games, and Jackal called him out later on. Whats important here is that Kurumi lumps himself in with very good players that town should listen to. He's attempting to establish a position of power for himself. On June 05 2011 23:20 Kurumi wrote: By the most scummy player I meant Your suspicion. An example of good post would be an analysis pointing out the biggest slips of player X leading Town in a Scum lynch.Remember though: there's nothing wrong about being wrong(unless You're redtooth,then You commit suicide on Day 3) A good post could be summing up who attacked who and who defended who + Your thoughts about it. Everything that generates discussion is good. You must remember though,that without good evidence there's probably no point in bringing something new,because this will cause chaos. Pyo,it is too fast for scum to bus too. Freeloader's situation is really uncertain. His small,but bandwagon is based on shitty evidence. "He asked a question,no townie would ask it!" Think for a second. What would happen if Freeloader was scum? Someone would pm him and tell him everything he needed to know,makes sense? Hell yes. We aren't that vindictive,don't worry <3 But there are players who are magnets,namely Radfield and Kavdragon,who like to die Day/Night 1. Kurumi hasn't been here that long, but he's clearly read up on his mafia. He knows the names of some older players. He is correct in that all discussion is good discussion, but (IMO)there are certain methods of generating it that do no good to town because they cause too much chaos. Still, point in his favor though. On June 05 2011 23:53 Kurumi wrote: Bussing is when You vote for lynch/kill Your Mafia buddy to make Yourself less suspicious/earn town cred,mostly happens when there's no way to save him/perform some gambit or wicked trickery. Well,it is rather safe to assume that anyone who got assigned as Godfather is going to help his newbie Mafia bros as fast as possible - he is probably one of the "better" players,but this might be a mislead. Also as far I remember in my PYPI pm I had mafia list and that I can PM them etc. etc.,while it wasn't a "noob game" I strongly believe that there everything a new player should know about his role/alignment. Not much to say about this. Slightly pro-town I guess? Kinda obvious stuff, but I'm giving people a pass on obvious stuff this game because its a newbie game and so not everything IS obvious. On June 06 2011 00:07 Kurumi wrote: My dumbness meter went over 9000. Before saying "HURR DURR YOU DID NOTHING" read my posts. I brought evidence why I think they're scum. aprudds (the originator of the whole "Freeloader Debacle") gives a nice, concise analysis of whats gone on in the game, and (in the @Pyo section), explains what his reasoning was for the first accusation. + Show Spoiler [Mini aprudds read] + IMO, it seems that aprudds and Kurumi actually have similar philosophies, its just that aprudds doesn't piss off as many people along the way. On June 06 2011 00:18 Kurumi wrote: I played in XXXIX then PYPI then PTP now there. This is Kurumi's prior experience. Note that in one of these games he was lynched D1. Vain steps in to defend Treadmill and aprudds. On June 06 2011 00:27 Kurumi wrote: @Vain Let aprudds defend himself. On June 06 2011 00:30 Kurumi wrote: EDWOP: I meant,let him play by himself,he does not need Your help. The evidence is simple: They support bad lynches,they say that we can waste lynches,they want Town to make quick decision which they didn't think about enough We've been over this - No they don't. On June 06 2011 03:41 Kurumi wrote: Sorry but Palmar and RedFF are better at tunneling everyone than me >:C Tunnelling is still bad -_-. However, I don't think Kurumi is tunnelling this game. He's just accusing everyone who disagrees with him of being scum. On June 06 2011 03:52 Kurumi wrote: Hey guys voting on freeloader bandwagon,are You willing to post? (Drazerk,grush57) Continuing to prod Silent Voters. Pro-town. Really unexpected. On June 06 2011 04:05 Kurumi wrote: Treadmill is suspicious to You? You both are doing the same thing. Also thanks for excuse,I enjoy eating them. Because they're yummy. Why would DT report on Day 2? It is an easy target for Mafia,even when med protected they can just stack on him. Why are You spreading bad ideas? Kurumi points out that DTs shouldn't report on D2 since mafia can stack kills. This is an excellent point - DTs should wait until they have something useful to report before revealing themselves. I don't understand the first half of this post, so I'm ignoring it lol. On June 06 2011 05:37 Kurumi wrote: This post can be treated like it never happened,You know? What are Your thoughts on freeloader bandwagon? Who's Your scum suspect #1? Asking questions, its been a bit since he last posted an opinion of his own (aside from other people are "Rats"). Nothing really here.+ Show Spoiler [Tiny supersoft read here] + Admitting to lurking and doing nothing but saying 'hey look I'm not lurking' is terrible.  On June 06 2011 05:54 Kurumi wrote: We can't no lynch. There needs to be a lynch every Day. True. And thats the last post he made. It may be time related. That was ~10 hours ago, possibly sleeping. So, what can we take from all this? Kurumi is a very aggressive player known for causing chaos. He has cast suspicion on many people, mostly those who argued with him. He has also thrown in some genuinely Pro-town things into his posting. Its very difficult to make a final call, but... I believe that Kurumi is Scum. In my opinion, his Pro-town points were thrown in at random or very obvious to remove suspicion from him. However, I must take into account that I may have been biased, as well as his pro-town things. Because of this, I do not advocate a Kurumi Lynch D1. Instead, I think that Kurumi should be our prime DT target. Knowledge of his alignment will undoubtedly help us determine who is scum and who is town. GGQ, Jackal, Vain, I'd particularly appreciate it if you would weigh in here. To new players, this is a complete, thorough analysis of a player. You don't have to do things like this. But you'll be a much better player if you do, even if you don't post it (there are times not to, like if you realize someone is a DT or Medic). Go forth and analyze! Now most of this post is directed at Kurumi who I feel is enemies with iGrok at this time, and assuming iGrok is GF, he doesn't want Kurumi to continue tunneling himself so he shifts focus to Kurumi. As iGrok doesn't want to appear suspicious himself he suggests a DT check Kurumi. Some of your points are absurd. He doesn’t want to appear suspicious so he asks a dt check on Kurumi. What… did you want him to ask for a dt check on himself? Let’s break it down. If he’s gf, he would welcome a dt. If he’s town, he knows that he himself is town and knows that utilizing a dt check on himself would be a waste. You assume he accuses Kurumi to put the public scrutiny on Kurumi and off himself. Think about this way. Before he posted this: Kurumi, pyo, gtrsrs are tunneling him. After this is posted: Kurumi, pyo, gtrsrs are still tunneling him. If he wanted to stop the pressure from tunneling, this was not meant to accomplish that. Assume he’s town. He provides a real analysis of someone we’d all like to know better, a high-interest person: Kurumi, probably one the most wild-card player in the game. Also the immediate claims of fishing for blues is bullshit for reasons already stated on other posts. It was just a weak excuse to tunnel someone even further. Now I would like to point out this out This is what I call true irony. This whole game until now has been iGrok expressing his experience and not stepping on anyone’s toes and making the town does not act hastily in their lynch. He is letting us make the first mistake (with information, not lynches) by not posting anything worth reading (he can't slip anything important if he never posts anything important while we make accusations and force each other to defend ourselves.. I personally thought that the analysis on iGrok was a worthwhile read…. But anyways as I have stated before, an establishment of greater experience will help someone regardless of whether or not he is mafia. If you want to stubborn minded about it and believe iGrok is gf without a doubt, why aren’t also calling out Kurumi who did the same thing. Immediately after this is posted gtrsrs calls iGrok out on still being his prime suspicion even though he provided a long analysis. + Show Spoiler + On June 06 2011 15:40 iGrok wrote: iGrok then asks for a post by post analysis of himself – which until now has been literally 100% white noise and even this analysis is an extremely passive against Kurumi. iGrok now posts that hes asking flamewheel to edit the formatting so he doesn't get in trouble and his posts looks prettier. iGrok then states that his PR formulas aren't 100% accurate, but are generally pretty useful. I think you and I have different definitions of passive. Also you claiming he’s passive is contrary to your argument that iGrok is putting himself out there as a person to be trusted based on experience. Let’s be frank here. iGrok wants gtrsrs to do a post by post analysis himself. Lets construe it as if iGrok is a town. iGrok is confident in his alignment so he is unafraid to ask someone to do an analysis on himself. Also he knows that gtrsrs has pretty much nothing conclusive on him. I suggest everyone read through pyo and gtrsrs’s posts and see exactly where the origin of this tunneling came from. It is lol worthy. + Show Spoiler + On June 06 2011 16:20 iGrok wrote: Basically he calls out gtrsrs on being a noob, even though his accusation against iGrok is pretty accurate. CrjNinja comes in and says he disagrees with his analysis on Kurumi. DO NOT base an argument on accuracy unless there are contradictions in someone’s posts. The better question to ask is “Is this significant?” NO. He is calling him a noob because these “accurate” statements in no way conclusively paint iGrok as mafia. Let’s boil it down to the facts. iGrok makes haikus and he posts what he believes the set-up is. If he is mafia, why let the town know? He can easily tell this information in the mafia chat. He made haikus. Oh noes… it’s so distracting he must be mafia. This is really the flimsiest reason for an accusation to have ever been uttered. + Show Spoiler + On June 06 2011 16:36 iGrok wrote: More people become suspicious of him and then gtrsrs posts Again construing it to suit your needs. More people are not becoming suspicious of him. They are disagreeing with his conclusion. There is a difference. iGrok even later welcomes any disagreements. He provided his evidence and of course it won’t be 100% conclusive so there will be some who don’t agree. - - - - - - - - - - - In conclusion, I really want to stress that THIS IS NOT AN OPEN AND SHUT CASE. Lets summarize the points main against iGrok: Claim to experience. Self-importance? His posts try to paint a picture as him being “pro-town” Defends lafali, accuses Kurumi Got super defensive “fishing for blues” I would get defensive too if I got tunneled for stupid reasons. I pointed out the flaw in “fishing for blues”. The only way iGrok is justified as scum is to claim iGrok is godfather. Yes, you have a right to be skeptical if the only means of accusing someone is to claim he is godfather. For those of you bumrushing iGrok as mafia, I urge you to look at it in the point of view of town and you will see it is equally as valid. Overall, I am not saying he couldn’t be godfather but all the evidence is INCONCLUSIVE at best. I don’t even know how all of you are completely convinced of his wrongdoing. We all agree he is being pro-town and trying to assert his experience, but you take this as proof he is godfather when he can just as easily be a townie. outlines the reasoning pretty well. Something else:[/b] GGQ didn't post ANY suspicions of iGrok until literally 1 minute before the night post. So the notion that GGQ was killed to protect iGrok from his accusations is bogus. iGrok is playing this as if its a newbie game (which it is). He's being a bit patronizing, a little "cutesy" and "unserious" perhaps, but that doesn't mean he reads as scum. In fact, look at his posting in older mafia games: Insane Mafia 2 - iGrok was a blue. He posts less (which can be explained by being blue rather than green) but he offers his opinion on most things. He shows an interest in the game mechanics, asks a bunch of questions about that. He also answers other peoples noob-esque questions. And he posts some silly stuff, early on, like this: On March 24 2011 08:08 iGrok wrote: The lunatic is in my head, The lunatic is in my head, You raise the blade, you make the change, You re-arrange me 'till I'm sane That's his only other game that I can find - though he has referred to playing in another game with smurf IDs, etc. Couldn't track that down. Anyways, in that other mafia he played, iGrok's early posts were mostly dominated by somewhat off-topic posting, like cutesy stuff, questions about the mechanics of the game, and answers to nooby questions. Does this sound similar? He was town when he did this last time. Does this mean he's 100% [green]innocent? NO. But it does mean that this kind of posting from iGrok is not evidence of his being some kind of scum mastermind. And when you disregard it the case against him looks rather slim. | ||
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grush57
Korea (South)2582 Posts
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grush57
Korea (South)2582 Posts
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amazingxkcd
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
On June 09 2011 13:23 grush57 wrote: Man, you can write a huge analysis and still have the logic to lynch a medic. You sir, are one of a kind. I will same excuse as jackal did since he was my only suspect until i decided to analysis everyone. Remember, i only purposely left jackal's analysis unspoilered. I analysised everyone except for last 5 or so. I will finish tomorrow. | ||
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Pyo
United States738 Posts
You're taking whether or not he was even going to participate as a sign of his role? WTF? And people called me tunneling iGrok bad analysis... You pick on jackal saying kurumi is insane as an indication of jackal trying to condemn or discredit him. That's wrong, go read kurumi's posting in XXXIX. He IS insane. I think even he'd admit it. Jackal pointing out rookie would be extremely dangerous for the god father to do. I mean why take that risk when he could have one of the other mafia do it or even wait for a townie to make a false accusation. Jackal says DT checks will return townie. That is not wrong. blues are townies too. "Ok, how can Jackal knows that Kurumi is scum if Freeloader is scum? If freeloader is scum, then Kurumi isn’t necessary that of a scum. Jackal then adds the second sentence as a insurance policies to himself. If Freeloader flips townie, then Kurumi is townie and most of the bandwagoners is scummy. Why does Jackal not say that? He lied here, and we know Mafia has to lie to win this game." - like for real? That is absurd. Bottom line this huge ass post is just a distraction filled with garbage analysis... and I haven't read the spoilered parts yet. | ||
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(also no offense to kurumi)
