EPT*Edit* Fast question, how does one play ZVZ on Tel'Darim? the early pressure against a 14-14 who scouts it is ridiculous especially since it's hard to "wall" off
[G] Spanishiwa's No Gas FE ZvX - Page 2
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Asparagus
United States269 Posts
*Edit* Fast question, how does one play ZVZ on Tel'Darim? the early pressure against a 14-14 who scouts it is ridiculous especially since it's hard to "wall" off | ||
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Psyclon
Bulgaria2443 Posts
The first question that comes to mind - how do you deal with early 2-3 or more stalker harass after the protoss sees that your gas is late (missing, actually). You mentioned a spine at 100% hatchery - is there enough time to get it? And on maps with wide expos like XelNaga, how can 1 spine help? Do you add more? 10x for sharing this build, i will definitely try it extensively! --------- Again, what happened in the game against tgun on XelNaga should not be possible!  I'm starting to think that your style can be useful only to players with godly micro and mechanics  | ||
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Spanishiwa
United States91 Posts
Yes the spine does come in time, and you can use your initial 2 queens to stall for the 3rd and 4th and even another spine if need be. Close positions it is hard though. Close positions would be difficult for any build though IMO. A spine on say XNC helps by reducing the area the stalker can poke in. Just keep in mind that early pressure like that will just set him further behind economically unless he can do some critical damage. Stalkers can't really do a lot of damage quickly, so a handful of queens can easily delay for a second spine. EDIT: it's true that this build is very apm intensive just because of the larva injects, creep spreading, and that you can be more easily punished for making a mistake. I do hope it gives you a good goal to shoot for, though! Also, I haven't attached any standard games as of yet because I feel that most of the skepticism will come from believing whether or not the build is insta-loss vs early pressure. I will attach some more standard games tomorrow, as well as pictures and release a replay pack. | ||
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Gotmog
Serbia899 Posts
I have been using something similar to these builds since i saw them. It worked wonders on my ability to defend cheese. Only problem is when you can't get fast hatch going And ofc...dying to <10pools/spines in ZvZ | ||
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Asparagus
United States269 Posts
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Grapefruit
Germany439 Posts
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dementrio
678 Posts
I think it works great against the popular light pressure into early expand into big scary 2 base push. I don't think it works well against 1 base allins and fast thirds. In the show you said it's really easy to scout 1 base allins: I disagree. By the time you can scout he's 1 basing it's too late to get any useful tech (speed, banelings) in time, you have to rely on queens and spine crawlers because slow lings are useless. Those are great at defending your front but in my experience if a terran makes a commitment to get past the spine crawlers he will be able to do so. E.g. he can get one medivac and enough units to 1 shot a queen to negate transfuses, I don't think you can defend that. At least I haven't been able to. Another point is fast thirds. Once a terran saw my queens and spines and expanded to the gold right away. I could not do anything about it, obviously, but I also could not expand myself easily: it's hard to defend 3 bases from harass with just queens and spines. You are more or less forced to wait at least for speed before taking your 3rd. | ||
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Frozenserpent
United States143 Posts
You say you get a pre-emptive spine crawler to deal with zeal/stalker harass. Doesn't that spine crawler negate some of the benefit that not getting zergling speed give you? Also, do you ever have issues when Protoss, seeing that you have no gas for quite some time, chronoboosts out 1st and 2nd stalker out and harasses with it? I find that dealing with stalker harass forces me to overproduce on lings, which completely negates the boost I got from getting a late gas. On certain maps, such as ones with a wide natural, is one spine crawler going to be enough to fend off stalker harass? Where do you position it, and at what timing do you typically plant one? Following up to that, have you ever had issues when he continually pump stalkers? Lings typically respond very well to stalkers because they are faster and can surround them, but it seems that without ling speed, stalkers can't get surrounded by lings unless they go onto creep for too long and get flanked. Is this simply a matter of having lings hidden, ready to flank, and having early creep spread? Thanks for the posts on this stuff. | ||
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dementrio
678 Posts
in zvp I don't think it's viable as a safe opening because of the hatch block and blink stalkers. on many maps you can't take a 3rd that you can connect with creep in time for a 4gate, and even if you do, you can't defend a zealot-stalker 4gate with just queens (when you can't concentrate your spines on 1 front). Blink stalkers need to get vision of your high ground for a split second. Even if you can prevent that, he can get hallucination or an observer before you can get enough units and the tech you need to deal with the stalkers. In zvz the main issue I have is that you have no way to scout whatsoever. it's imo too fragile because queens and spines are both too slow to make once you see a threat, and making them preemptively gets you way behind somebody who drones hardcore. | ||
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NB
Netherlands12045 Posts
On March 31 2011 11:43 kcdc wrote: Pretty sure you kicked the crap out of me on ladder with this. The only concern I'd have is that with an early defense of spines+queens, you have almost no ability to pressure. When I watched the replay, I was like, "huh, shit, I could have taken my third at 8 minutes." Infestor + bling bombs are so cost-efficient vs P in lategame, tho, so I'm not sure if taking a faster third would have won the game anyway. im quite sure incontrol did a 4 gates vs this and just expand right after he see more than 3 spines... and spines normally can never held off a 5 gates push on xel naga.... the thing is both incontrol and minigun i saw move out with the first zealot + stalker to scout if they saw hatch 1st: 2lings cant do shit and they could snipe a drones or 2 + force more spine... | ||
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DarKFoRcE
Germany1215 Posts
Against P i find it problematic not to be able to scout very well (like checking whether he takes gas at his nat, cancel his nexus and stuff like that.. al that is way harder with slow lings). furthermore, as kcdc said, you have no offensive potential, so P can just take a third very save. And in ZvZ i absolutely hate this build. No scouting, You have to invest in static defense while your opponent can drone super heavily, while at the same time him having mapcontrol and being able to take a third before you do. Also "sneaking slow lings into his base" is somewhat... lol, this just doesnt work against competent opponents. Overall i think this build CAN work, if your opponent does not exploit it properly, but i think it is rather easy to exploit, at least in ZvP and ZvZ because it is easy to scout there. In ZvT i guess it might work out well sometimes, but if your opponents goes for an early stimpush or smth. like that youre screwed :/ | ||
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Chaosvuistje
Netherlands2581 Posts
I could see this to work in ZvT occasionally. Like on Tal darim where the terran doesn't scout you and goes for an early expand himself. But personally I still prefer 15hatch 14pool. I like the safeness of the early lings and the spinecrawler up sooner. ZvZ... you better be reacting to the opponents 15 hatch, because you WILL die to early agression, or come hugely behind in drones during his attack. Overall I think hatch first is risky on most non-huge maps, so eaking out an extra drone before you expand makes it slightly more risky. | ||
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magha
Netherlands427 Posts
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caracarn
Sweden141 Posts
At the very top i am not sure how it would do though... Good job though! =) | ||
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loveeholicce
Korea (South)785 Posts
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kcdc
United States2311 Posts
On March 31 2011 21:35 DarKFoRcE wrote: Meh. I see this mainly working because people dont realize the big weaknesses of this build. I absolutely dont see you holding some kind of 2 rax pressure into expand into 5 rax stimpush, as you will not even have zergling speed done when the push is outside of your base. and slow lings against stimmed MM is no fun. Against P i find it problematic not to be able to scout very well (like checking whether he takes gas at his nat, cancel his nexus and stuff like that.. al that is way harder with slow lings). furthermore, as kcdc said, you have no offensive potential, so P can just take a third very save. And in ZvZ i absolutely hate this build. No scouting, You have to invest in static defense while your opponent can drone super heavily, while at the same time him having mapcontrol and being able to take a third before you do. Also "sneaking slow lings into his base" is somewhat... lol, this just doesnt work against competent opponents. Overall i think this build CAN work, if your opponent does not exploit it properly, but i think it is rather easy to exploit, at least in ZvP and ZvZ because it is easy to scout there. In ZvT i guess it might work out well sometimes, but if your opponents goes for an early stimpush or smth. like that youre screwed :/ Against P, I can see it working as sort of a 2-base tech turtle where you're essentially saying, "Ok Protoss, you can have map control and 3 bases, but I'm going to have lots of drones and I'm going to tech straight infestors and blings with OL drops, and soon after, I'll have ultras, and I'll beat your macro with unit efficiency." Didn't Zergs tech turtle to defilers against Terran all the time in BW? I don't think know exactly how efficient infestors + bling drops is going to be at this point, but there's no doubt that it rocks the hell out of the standard stalker, sentry, colossus + optional void ray composition. We'll have to see what happens when Protoss players adjust. | ||
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ElPeque.fogata
Uruguay460 Posts
i've been doing something very similar because i thought it would be a good idea. but had mixed results. Early agression es pretty hard to stop without too much losses. I'm trying to figure out good sim city and queen usage to make it work more often. Also i usually die to protosses faking 4 gates (or actually doing them once in a while). It makes me get scared and stop droning. And when i realize it's already too late. need to play more | ||
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DarKFoRcE
Germany1215 Posts
On March 31 2011 23:09 kcdc wrote: Against P, I can see it working as sort of a 2-base tech turtle where you're essentially saying, "Ok Protoss, you can have map control and 3 bases, but I'm going to have lots of drones and I'm going to tech straight infestors and blings with OL drops, and soon after, I'll have ultras, and I'll beat your macro with unit efficiency." Didn't Zergs tech turtle to defilers against Terran all the time in BW? I don't think know exactly how efficient infestors + bling drops is going to be at this point, but there's no doubt that it rocks the hell out of the standard stalker, sentry, colossus + optional void ray composition. We'll have to see what happens when Protoss players adjust. You definitely dont have the gas to support infestor + baneling drop on 2 bases. | ||
ZeromuS
Canada13378 Posts
Wanted to get your opinion on this though it is map dependant where with a large natural it is more difficult to defend the natural and especially if the third is far away makes it harder for the protoss to turtle up and get a powerful army to push out. On maps with more defendable 3rds a protoss could expo and then come back with a strong collossus army to try and take some of the expansions out and secure additional expos in a slow push kind of style. Then again with the new infestors they do a lot of damage and delay attacks for a bit. And as Kcdc has said if the toss decides to take a faster 3rd doenst that put you behind as well since protoss can do really well with chronoboost on nexi for probes in terms of econ and the units are pretty cost effective once you get tech. | ||
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DemiAlbedo
Canada69 Posts
Very interesting build Im a protoss and i was wondering if putting down so many spines doesn't really hurt you with regards to a 4 gate that never really hits you. What I mean by this is 4 gateways, pressure but expansion behind the initial pressure, especially if all the spinecrawlers finish. I know that the ~5 spines will be helpful in defense but it is 750 minerals spent and 5 drones lost so wouldnt that put you in a more even position than leaving the protoss really behind? This is of course assuming they don't go for the all in and lose all their units and try to transition into a stronger late game army. It is best to get a response from the OP. But because I love this build I will try to answer your question with my experience so far. I am no where near as perfect with this build as Spanishiwa is, but I don't think you will be behind because you are literally building defense and pumping drones none stop. If you choose not to attack you have invested your minerals into units to show fake aggression, but fake aggression or not he is still droning. Doing two larva injects and massing drones will easily catch up to the protoss if he does not actually do any aggression to force units. Forcing the zerg to build 5 spines is not going to hurt him if you don't capitalize on it and he just continues droning. And as Kcdc has said if the toss decides to take a faster 3rd doenst that put you behind as well since protoss can do really well with chronoboost on nexi for probes in terms of econ and the units are pretty cost effective once you get tech. I think that is the case no matter what build order you do. It doesn't matter if you go 14 hatchery 14 pool, or 11 overpool 18 hatchery. A protoss getting a third is always an issue. The advantage to this build is the mass creep spread allows you to expand fast to keep up and defend your own expansions with the increased speed. EDITED POST: I forgot to mention the one issue I have had with this build so far. I don't run into any issues with Protoss. Mass queens help with early aggression and creep spread for fast expansions puts me in a good spot for mid-late game. The rest is typical ZvP. My issue is with Terran that go fast banshee rush. Since you are getting your lair late you won't have overseers for detection so you must build spore crawlers for defense. This seems like a relatively easy solution, but I find I'm getting my evo chambers a few seconds before they attack so once they cloak I'm running around like a chicken with my head cut off waiting for my evos to finish. This could just be my lack of experience with the build, but it does cause me issues. I have not lost yet to a banshee rush because must people rush without cloak so my queens cleanup, but for the few that do get cloak :S | ||
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