EPT[GSL March] Up & Down Day 3 - Page 94
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Any balance whining/complaining/bad manner shit of ANY SORT is automatic temp ban. | ||
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adeezy
United States1428 Posts
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Kurr
Canada2338 Posts
I think it makes it interesting. It's hard to judge a player's skill based on 1 tournament as well, so until we have several leagues and top players taking part in international tournaments it's harder to have a clear vision of who's on top. A lot of good players can go on a hot streak and be considered great, only to disappoint people when they get back down to earth. Either way, with all that said, I think MVP will do well in Code A because of his experience compared to most of his competitors. | ||
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hitman133
United States1425 Posts
On March 17 2011 04:00 rysecake wrote: The new maps have alot to do with it. Give terran some time and I'm sure they will figure out a way to adapt to this new gameplay. Bullshit, MVP lost to Alicia on Xel'Cavern and Meta, and WON on the new map, cross position fyi. In 3 games he used amulet in game 2 but he lost, now Terran can stop whining about HTs yet? Both 1st and 3rd game was only gateway units and a few colossus. | ||
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LetoAtreides82
United States1188 Posts
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Highways
Australia6098 Posts
In the past month or so TvP winrates with been so low. Even when watching Jinro vs Nony, I was thinking something isn't right with this matchup here. + Show Spoiler + Btw not happy that Rain got through cause he is such a terrible player, so lucky he was in such an easy group. | ||
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ben01016
Canada14 Posts
On March 17 2011 05:41 HowSoOnIsNow wrote: That`s actually not true. MvP was a great Terran in BW. Define great in your dictionary please. Because there is no point in his life of BW that was as strong as his performance in GSL when he won the championship. In his BW life he was never good enough to complete with the top guns. I am saying this just because he was champion of GSL, though he never came close at all in BW's MSL/OSL. Again I am not trying to flame, I am just saying he won a GSL title, great, but I don't see him as a "strong" player to stay on top in the Korean SC2 community. | ||
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IVN
534 Posts
On March 17 2011 00:11 Endorsed wrote: You sir are wrong. There was a balance fix: the new maps.Exactly, there was nothing wrong with the balance. Seeing how they didn't change a thing. that mattered for the Pvt matchup. Protoss just got REALLY good at stopping the early/mid game stim timing pushes of terran and suddenly they get into late game where Protoss has the advantage. The consensus was the Terran had the early game advantage, and Protoss had the late game advantage. Right now, because protoss have gotten so good at their sentry control, that there is no more advantage in the early game for terran. I remember the first 3 GSL's, were terran were landing factory's in the protoss main, making hellions. Seeing a toss run his army all the way back, and then a bio force running into the main of toss haha. Anyway, MVP played trash and he deserved to lose. On the new, larger maps, a terran cant just research stim, pull of his SCVs and all in you 4 teh win. Now that terrans have to have skill to win, you see just how bad some of the terran gods are. Thats what happens when ppl rest on their laurels. | ||
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Jayrod
1820 Posts
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HolyArrow
United States7116 Posts
On March 17 2011 07:38 Jayrod wrote: This might sound out of left field, but I think oGsMC's season 3 run combined with HongUn's early round upgrade-based build have led to protoss understanding PvT alot more than terrans understand TvP. Whether the tools were in place for Protoss to simply dominate terran or if this is a metagame shift is not clear, but right now protoss has an advantage in the matchup. Its far to soon to talk about balance, but I think all protoss players can agree that MC's season 3 run advanced the race significantly and showed us a new way to play. Agreed. I also found Alicia's aggressive 3gate pressure against a 3rax terran (Tastetosis pointed this out) to be extremely impressive. That personally showed me a new way to play as well. | ||
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IVN
534 Posts
On March 17 2011 02:38 Endorsed wrote: Mech also has no hope. You can't prevent an extremely quick 3rd and protoss can abuse the immobility really good, also Mech isn't even that great, there are many 200/200 toss compositions who can put up an even fight. With mech you really need to crush the protoss, if you have 4 tanks left, it's not engough. He can just warp in 10 zealots. Maybe on a map like Terminus Re, but idk. Mech is good, you'll see. But terrans have to use the pros of their race. Meaning: PFs, turrets, sensor towers, upgrades for building armor, ghosts vs immortals, and so on. Aside from Jinro, I havent seen 1 terran try something like that. And Jinro owned MC with mech. | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
1) He did an incredibly stupid early M&M attack on Tal D'Arim Altar that pretty much cost him the game. 2) He all-inned with SCV on Altar even though he might have had a chance to come back and got wiped out by the Protoss. 3) He also did a very bad M&M&M attack on Metalopolis that cost him the game. 4) He basically did the same FE every game, although he had serious Problems holding off even 3-gateway expands. I mean: Mvp should really know that Sentries pwn Bunkers, cuz you won't be able to repair them... This really hurt him on Altar and Metal. 5) He took his 3rd on Shakuras even tough Genius prepared a very strong 2-base Collossus attack. 6) He lost at least 2 Scans trying to snipe Observers and didn't catch them. 7) He didn't react at all to the heavy +Armor of Genius, that made his unupgraded Bioball extremely weak. He displayed some nice moves in the later stages of the games though and played very well, although he was behind and that's IMHO when Protoss would get stronger than Terran. All the games he lost, he basically lost them while being too aggressive on 2 bases against 2 bases of the Protoss and that's a time where Protoss cannot abuse any imbalances of the greater Maps. There where some close moments with Warp-In's that nearly cost him the game and maybe put him at a disadvantage early when he was defending his Natural expansion, but that's about it. and btw. MVP was of course a very good Terran in BW, but compared to other players in KOREA, actually playing in OSL, MSL, and PL, he was definitely not that good. ^^' He was very cheesey, unconsistent and wasn't even a Top-Terran in Woongjin... what was his competition, Piano?  | ||
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Derez
Netherlands6068 Posts
- MVP's first game vs alicia was truly abysmal. He lost it the moment he put the command center down after fact, and while the other matches, incl vs genius were a little better, he never played near the level he displayed last season. - Watching Rain play makes me cringe. I'm actually not sure he has realized you can make SCV's out of multiple command centers at the same time. Rain making it into code S makes me sadder then MVP dropping out of it. Just uninspired, mediocre play in all of his games. On the whole PvT issue: I honestly believe it's just another phase in the metagame, and one that will get figured out by T players in the near future. The metagame has shifted towards toss at the moment in PvT, and it's going to take a while for T players to adapt to it. Just like the way it took pro zergs a while to recover from the marine/SCV all-ins back in GSL2. It's not a bad thing, not a good thing, it's just the way it is. You can't really talk balance until a certain 'equilibrium' in the game has been reached, and we aren't there yet. Personally, I think the new maps are partially responsible for this shift. On shorter maps, terrans have some truly abusive timings to keep protoss players in line, and keep them from doing anything too crazy. I think 'the future' of TvP is going to revolve much more around stronger, more aggressive, high tech 1-base plays from terrans, focussed on denying any P expo's. | ||
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kickinhead
Switzerland2069 Posts
On March 17 2011 07:45 Derez wrote: Well that was a day of GSL matches I'm never ever watching again. - MVP's first game vs alicia was truly abysmal. He lost it the moment he put the command center down after fact, and while the other matches, incl vs genius were a little better, he never played near the level he displayed last season. - Watching Rain play makes me cringe. I'm actually not sure he has realized you can make SCV's out of multiple command centers at the same time. Rain making it into code S makes me sadder then MVP dropping out of it. On the whole PvT issue: I honestly believe it's just another phase in the metagame, and one that will get figured out by T players in the near future. The metagame has shifted towards toss at the moment in PvT, and it's going to take a while for T players to adapt to it. Just like the way it took pro zergs a while to recover from the marine/SCV all-ins back in GSL2. It's not a bad thing, not a good thing, it's just the way it is. You can't really talk balance until a certain 'equilibrium' in the game has been reached, and we aren't there yet. Personally, I think the new maps are partially responsible for this shift. On shorter maps, terrans have some truly abusive timings to keep protoss players in line, and keep them from doing anything too crazy. I think 'the future' of TvP is going to revolve much more around stronger, more aggressive, high tech 1-base plays from terrans, focussed on denying any P expo's. Mvp displayed some nice ways to play T on bigger Maps - just play aggressive early on (but don't looseyour Army like he did in the Up&Down-Matches) and then switch to mech and maybe after the Patch even BC's. You'll still have a standing Bio-Army quite a while until you completely switch to mech, so dropping (which is totally ridiculous on most of the bigger Maps) is a possibility to abuse the bigger Maps nearly throughout the game. Also, Terrans haven't begun to nearly harrass enough with the extremely fast Hellions, which are Godlike on those bigger Maps. and with the incoming HT-nerf, I won't really consider the bigger Maps Protoss-favoured in TvP at all. Mvp played bad and his losses had nothing to do with the Map-size, nor with any other balance-reasons and I say that as a neutral Zerg-player. ^^' | ||
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baoluvboa
743 Posts
On March 17 2011 07:26 ben01016 wrote: Define great in your dictionary please. Because there is no point in his life of BW that was as strong as his performance in GSL when he won the championship. In his BW life he was never good enough to complete with the top guns. I am saying this just because he was champion of GSL, though he never came close at all in BW's MSL/OSL. Again I am not trying to flame, I am just saying he won a GSL title, great, but I don't see him as a "strong" player to stay on top in the Korean SC2 community. I think he made semifinal OSL and beat Flash once in a tvt so he was pretty decent. Correction: it was making the Quarterfinals of the 2010 Hana Daetoo Securities MSL, where he took a game off Flash, losing 1-3, not semi OSL | ||
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Derez
Netherlands6068 Posts
On March 17 2011 07:51 kickinhead wrote: Mvp displayed some nice ways to play T on bigger Maps - just play aggressive early on (but don't looseyour Army like he did in the Up&Down-Matches) and then switch to mech and maybe after the Patch even BC's. You'll still have a standing Bio-Army quite a while until you completely switch to mech, so dropping (which is totally ridiculous on most of the bigger Maps) is a possibility to abuse the bigger Maps nearly throughout the game. Also, Terrans haven't begun to nearly harrass enough with the extremely fast Hellions, which are Godlike on those bigger Maps. and with the incoming HT-nerf, I won't really consider the bigger Maps Protoss-favoured in TvP at all. Mvp played bad and his losses had nothing to do with the Map-size, nor with any other balance-reasons and I say that as a neutral Zerg-player. ^^' Then again, I didn't say he lost due to map size or due to imbalances. The MVP that played today wasn't the one we saw last season. I was just commenting on the simple fact that so many pro terrans currently have issues with protoss, and what I think is the cause of that. I think every race goes through slumps, and while T has been fairly dominant so far (especially vs Z), its cool to see that tide turning over time. As I am sure that at some point it'll shift back to them again. As for succesful 'pro' strategies in TvP, noone seems to have mech truly working yet vs protoss, or we'd actually have people do it more then what, 5 times in 5 seasons? I'm not saying it's not going to be viable some day, it's just not viable yet. Using BC's effectively seems even further off, seeing how it is an incredibly hard techswitch to pull off due to both building times and their dependancy on air upgrades. Point is: I believe it's not an issue of balance, but more an issue of finding that balance again for T players. It is about adaptation to the changes that are occuring in the way protoss is played. I think it is a fairly similar scenario to what were seeing currently in ZvT, where both July and a few others have found a new way to engage terrans. In the end, it's a good thing. Who wants a game where you only have 1 real, effective build vs another race. | ||
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bahl sofs tiil
United States233 Posts
On March 17 2011 07:28 IVN wrote: You sir are wrong. There was a balance fix: the new maps. On the new, larger maps, a terran cant just research stim, pull of his SCVs and all in you 4 teh win. Now that terrans have to have skill to win, you see just how bad some of the terran gods are. Thats what happens when ppl rest on their laurels. Because SCV all-ins were what characterized MVP's style, which is why he has dropped to code A and a macro player like Rain is still code S, right? | ||
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Tingles
Australia225 Posts
Give it time and T's will understand TvP much better. Might actually have a game where we DON'T see M&M&M early mid and late game. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
On March 17 2011 07:41 IVN wrote: Mech is good, you'll see. But terrans have to use the pros of their race. Meaning: PFs, turrets, sensor towers, upgrades for building armor, ghosts vs immortals, and so on. Aside from Jinro, I havent seen 1 terran try something like that. And Jinro owned MC with mech. Jinro won one BO3 with mech against MC who played poor then... There is a reason pro's hardly use mech, it is simply not that good. It isn't much stronger then bio in straight up fights, is much harder to get going, has almost no mobility and can be countered quite well by simple carriers. | ||
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1Eris1
United States5797 Posts
On March 17 2011 07:06 adeezy wrote: I think people overanalyze tournament results to = balance, thats the trend that has been apparent since GSL season 1. Zerg was said to be too strong Season 1 and 2 and that protoss wasn't strong enough because they weren't placing. Now they are too strong primarily due to the results that people are seeing. Now results aside it's really hard to put a hand on balance now, especially considering that trends change from season to season and people are either adapting, or not. So it's either you attribute losses to balance or the player, in most cases it's the latter. Season 2 I can understand because the matchup wasn't understood after the patch, but zerg too strong in season 1? You must have missed the part where there was 1 zerg in the ro.8 and 2 in the ro16. I think people overplay one race's strength in tournaments too much. Zerg won GSL 1, but they were UP at the time. Protoss won Season 3, when they were considered the weakest race, etc | ||
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Fruscainte
4596 Posts
9 correct Liquibet votes in a row. Holy crap, if I can make it through the week that would mean I did Semi Finals + Up and Down + Finals all correct. So excited right now, I dont know how. | ||
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He will destroy Code A so hard. I think this up and down system is pretty stupid, it leaves alot of things to luck. Someone like Leenock and MVP are so amazing they deserve to be in Code A. But because of a bad day/luck they don't 
