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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Last week, we introduced the blog and talked about why Mech is attractive like a big juicy peach on a hot summer day. This week, we're talking about Hellions.
The Hellion
I think probably the greatest difficulty for TvP Mech in SC2 is the lack of vultures. Vultures were basically bad against everything but zealots, but they were quick, and as mineral dumps go, not bad since you could deal damage to dragoon shields effectively. The real thing they had was the other foundation of slow push and Terran map control: Spider Mines. These were your detection, your scouts, your AoE damage and your mineral dump and DAMN were they sexy.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/vc5DZ.png)
Scuttling noises still raise my hackles.
Well, the new Vulture is the Hellion. As a mineral dump, I overlooked Hellions for a long time-- they seemed basically inferior to Marines in terms of damage output and flexibility, and they certainly didn't provide the extra defense that Spider Mines did in BW. It seemed that Bio-Mech was the new Mech. But what Hellions lack in Spider Mines they make up for with Blue Flame.
What It Can Do
Most of you know what to do with a pile of Blue Hellions... but it's not just about eating probes with them. Blue Flame Hellions are the answer to anything that comes out of a Gateway and isn't called Stalkers. They eat Zealots, DTs, HTs, Sentries, and even Archons given enough time and room to micro. A standard Blue Flame Hellion deals 24 damage to Light in an AoE comparable to way awesomer than Colossus AoE but infinitely harder to aim correctly since it shoots out forwards rather than horizontally like a Colossus.
Against Zealots with no Upgrades (100 health with 1 armor, 50 shields with 0 armor), it takes 7 shots to down a zealot.
With +1 Vehicle Attack, the Blue Flame deals 26 damage per shot, downing upgradeless Zealots in a mere 6 shots.
+1 Vehicle Attack downs Zealots with +1 Armor in 7 shots.
+2 Vehicle Attack downs Zealots with +1 Armor in 6 shots.
+2 Vehicle Attack downs Zealots with +2 Armor in 6 shots!!!! <-- this is big.
+2 Vehicle Attack downs Zealots with +3 Armor in 7 shots.
+3 Vehicle Attack downs Zealots with +3 Armor in 6 shots.
Which means that if even if Protoss is matching you grade for grade, when you're both at +2/+2, your Hellions have hit SSJ3 and their huge blue energy beams don't CARE if Protoss has matching armor grades, they 6-shot that shit.
With +3 Vehicle Attack against Zealots with +3 Armor, Blue Flame (28 damage) downs them in 6 shots again! THATS RIGHT PROTOSS, WHEN I AT +2 VEHICLE ATK GRAD U MIGHT AS WELL GIVe UP ON UR ARMOR GRADES. I DON'T EVEN NEED TO BE AHEAD I CAN JUST LAY DOWN THAT BLUE STUFF.
Let's put this in some better perspective, since the difference between 6-shotting and 7-shotting zealot seems minor: Hellions have a huge splash radius, and shoot very rarely. If a Hellion was a marine, this would be the difference between 18-shotting and 21-shotting a Zealot (in terms of time reduction). Also, with the basic blue flame, you're dealing 24 damage, which 4-shots sentries right out the gate. If the Protoss player gets an armor upgrade, you need a weapons upgrade to stay ahead of the game. but once you hit 28 damage (+2) you will be able to 3-shot sentries, even if they have +1 armor(!)... this makes an elite strike team of 3 blue flame hellions brutally effective against some standard anti-harass units, the zealot and sentry. The only units that a Protoss player can reasonably scramble (short of physically walking over a portion of his army) to stop blue flame hellions are Stalkers, and to an extent, DTs or Archons.
Delicious Delicious Gateway Units
Hellions destroy everything that's light, and stalkers have weak enough damage that until your opponent has storms or colossi, hellions can be all up in that shit all day erry day. Things to watch out for when using blue flame hellion harass: Forcefields. These are the bane of your existence. Protoss players often place buildings in and around their mineral lines when they know they are up against hellion harass to make forcefields even more effective at boxing out your hellions.
Without some form of splash damage or unusually impeccable and numerous forcefields, your hellions will die unusually slowly, and feast upon all the light units in the protoss army. It
 
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I don't think hellions are completely useless TvP, but I feel you make them out to be better than they really are.
Protoss is likely going to have collosi and/or HT out before you even get +2 weapon upgrades on mech.
Also the splash AoE comparison between collosi and hellions is stupid. In the picture a collosus would still do lots of splash damage, and when you engage a battle your units AI forms a thin semi circle while attacking, making collosus AoE 2x as good and hellion AoE 2x as bad.
You said stalkers are the problem but didn't even reason why hellions can be effective vs them against a Protoss who uses them properly. What if he masses stalkers? You are dumping lots of money in to these factories producing hellions; you clearly won't have the marauder count to deal with all the stalkers. I don't see why he can't just straight up mass expand while defending with stalkers or just punch you in the face and kill you.
Replays against a Protoss who demonstrates good stalker usage?
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On February 09 2011 10:07 Grobyc wrote:Also the splash AoE comparison between collosi and hellions is stupid. In the picture a collosus would still do lots of splash damage, and when you engage a battle your units AI forms a thin semi circle while attacking, making collosus AoE 2x as good and hellion AoE 2x as bad. If you line up like a bunch of redcoats and trade fire, sure, Collosus AoE is superior-- I was even somewhat tongue-in-cheek about it-- but with some control, especially early in the game, Hellion splash can be devastating against protoss gateway tech, especially the slower and weaker light units, such as Sentries and Zealots.
On February 09 2011 10:07 Grobyc wrote:You said stalkers are the problem but didn't even reason why hellions can be effective vs them against a Protoss who uses them properly. What if he masses stalkers? You are dumping lots of money in to these factories producing hellions; you clearly won't have the marauder count to deal with all the stalkers. This post isn't about build orders or about compositions-- mech play includes other units which use GAS and are good against stalkers.
I said stalkers are the problem, and I don't give a reason why hellions are effective against them because hellions AREN'T effective against stalkers, nor should they be. Stalkers ARE the problem, which is why you make other units. Stalkers are effective against mutalisks, too, but that doesn't mean that you can just give up on making mutalisk because the Protoss race has access to stalkers.
Hellions are a mineral dump, and a great harassing unit at that-- if you can't see that, you should get a new prescription.
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If you line up like a bunch of redcoats and trade fire, sure, Collosus AoE is superior-- I was even somewhat tongue-in-cheek about it-- but with some control, especially early in the game, Hellion splash can be devastating against protoss gateway tech, especially the slower and weaker light units, such as Sentries and Zealots.
If you are in a position to micro during a battle to maximize your damage, how is he not going to be able to?
If you both 1a his splash > yours. If he 1as and you micro then of course you are going to have better damage efficient. What's stopping him from moving his units to lessen your splash damage in turn? You make it sound like you're saying "oh well if that just happens I'll micro better than him".
This post isn't about build orders or about compositions-- mech play includes other units which use GAS and are good against stalkers.
It takes a long ass time to build up a nice terran gas mech army to be able to move out for pressure. If Protoss has good stalker control you hellions will do jack shit for damage until then. By the time you move out Protoss is just going to have so much shit while having invested in his tech and economy during the mid game that he will still be able to combat you in my opinion. Also, the terran gas mech units that fare alright vs stalkers are both armoured, and stalkers are definitely not bad against them by any means either.
Hellions are a mineral dump, and a great harassing unit at that-- if you can't see that, you should get a new prescription.
In the beginning of my post I said they weren't useless, but I still don't think they are as great as you make them out to be TvP. I just find they have much more use as a mineral dump and for harassment in other matchups.
I said stalkers are the problem, and I don't give a reason why hellions are effective against them because hellions AREN'T effective against stalkers, nor should they be. Stalkers ARE the problem, which is why you make other units. Stalkers are effective against mutalisks, too, but that doesn't mean that you can just give up on making mutalisk because the Protoss race has access to stalkers.
Uhhh 1 for 1, mutalisks beat stalkers in multiple numbers. There has been analysis on it. Mutalisks have enough mobility to provide plenty of use ZvP as well. 4 stalkers defends vs like 10 hellions, so you can spread them out nicely to cover all fronts from hellions. You can't do that vs mutas. 4 stalkers blocking this route? Lets fuck 'em up with mutas. Like I said, I just don't find as much use for them in TvP. Hellion drops can be nice, but small number hellion drops sounds different than this emphasis on hellions you seem to be going for.
You also didn't comment on my first point in my post about the upgrades. You also haven't provided a replay disproving and proving my points vs yours. I won't be convinced until I see proof.
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The most badass strategy you can ever use is mass hellion-viking. Vikings control the sky, hellions kill everything on the ground with fire. Absurdly fun to play with, hellions do FAR better than you could possibly imagine.
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Don't forget how amazing blue flame hellion drops are against protoss. Keeps them contained in their base and is probably the most effective way to kill a protoss mineral line.
I had no idea that blue flames could 6 shot zealots, that is amazing. Your pictures are quite funny too =)
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On February 09 2011 10:50 Grobyc wrote:If you are in a position to micro during a battle to maximize your damage, how is he not going to be able to?
If you both 1a his splash > yours. If he 1as and you micro then of course you are going to have better damage efficient. What's stopping him from moving his units to lessen your splash damage in turn? You make it sound like you're saying "oh well if that just happens I'll micro better than him". I'm saying nothing of the sort. I'm saying that collosus splash can't be microed better-- it's already optimal in almost all circumstances. I personally think that a unit with a splash attack that is hard to aim, a fast attack animation with a long cool down that is easily animation canceled, and a fast move speed, such as the hellion, can benefit more from micro than a colossus.
I also think this is a moot point since colossi are going to eat hellions regardless. Hellions are for attacking early armies and picking off light units, or harassing zealots and probes.
On February 09 2011 10:50 Grobyc wrote:4 stalkers defends vs like 10 hellions, so you can spread them out nicely to cover all fronts from hellions. You can't do that vs mutas. 4 stalkers blocking this route? Lets fuck 'em up with mutas. Like I said, I just don't find as much use for them in TvP. Hellion drops can be nice, but small number hellion drops sounds different than this emphasis on hellions you seem to be going for.
4 Stalkers deal a fairly small DPS. Would they beat a larger number of hellions in a straight fight? ABSOLUTELY. The hellions would die slow and painful deaths. But this isn't about that. This is about the fact that in the time it would take 4 stalkers to kill 10 hellions, they'd kill... I'd say, EVERY PROBE.
On February 09 2011 10:50 Grobyc wrote: You also didn't comment on my first point in my post about the upgrades. You also haven't provided a replay disproving and proving my points vs yours. I won't be convinced until I see proof.
Your point about the upgrades was fair; +2 is a long ways into the game. The purpose of the upgrade analysis was to note that, in the later game, as protoss is dumping minerals into chargelots, and you are (hypothetically) dumping minerals into hellions, you will gain in efficiency regarding the hellion vs zealot matchup. If you're still doing drops and runbys at that point (which you should), it puts your opponent in an uncomfortable position.
I also haven't provided a replay disproving your so-called "points" because this isn't a strategy post written by a 2800 master's league player, this is a blog written by a low diamond player trying to work his way around a different terran style. I don't bring AK-47s to butterknife fights.
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On February 09 2011 10:50 Grobyc wrote:+ Show Spoiler +If you line up like a bunch of redcoats and trade fire, sure, Collosus AoE is superior-- I was even somewhat tongue-in-cheek about it-- but with some control, especially early in the game, Hellion splash can be devastating against protoss gateway tech, especially the slower and weaker light units, such as Sentries and Zealots. If you are in a position to micro during a battle to maximize your damage, how is he not going to be able to? If you both 1a his splash > yours. If he 1as and you micro then of course you are going to have better damage efficient. What's stopping him from moving his units to lessen your splash damage in turn? You make it sound like you're saying "oh well if that just happens I'll micro better than him". This post isn't about build orders or about compositions-- mech play includes other units which use GAS and are good against stalkers. It takes a long ass time to build up a nice terran gas mech army to be able to move out for pressure. If Protoss has good stalker control you hellions will do jack shit for damage until then. By the time you move out Protoss is just going to have so much shit while having invested in his tech and economy during the mid game that he will still be able to combat you in my opinion. Also, the terran gas mech units that fare alright vs stalkers are both armoured, and stalkers are definitely not bad against them by any means either. Hellions are a mineral dump, and a great harassing unit at that-- if you can't see that, you should get a new prescription. In the beginning of my post I said they weren't useless, but I still don't think they are as great as you make them out to be TvP. I just find they have much more use as a mineral dump and for harassment in other matchups. I said stalkers are the problem, and I don't give a reason why hellions are effective against them because hellions AREN'T effective against stalkers, nor should they be. Stalkers ARE the problem, which is why you make other units. Stalkers are effective against mutalisks, too, but that doesn't mean that you can just give up on making mutalisk because the Protoss race has access to stalkers. Uhhh 1 for 1, mutalisks beat stalkers in multiple numbers. There has been analysis on it. Mutalisks have enough mobility to provide plenty of use ZvP as well. 4 stalkers defends vs like 10 hellions, so you can spread them out nicely to cover all fronts from hellions. You can't do that vs mutas. 4 stalkers blocking this route? Lets fuck 'em up with mutas. Like I said, I just don't find as much use for them in TvP. Hellion drops can be nice, but small number hellion drops sounds different than this emphasis on hellions you seem to be going for. You also didn't comment on my first point in my post about the upgrades. You also haven't provided a replay disproving and proving my points vs yours. I won't be convinced until I see proof.
You apparently haven't been up against good hellion harass. Stuff hurts, dude.
And why the unnecessary flaming? StarCraft isn't about definitive answers. If somebody in the year 2000 had said that forge-first FE into corsairs were a good idea against Zerg, you would have laughed; but would you now? Your xenophobic reactions are annoying and counter-productive, and I'd appreciate it if you didn't go around trying to prove how giant your penis is.
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4 Stalkers deal a fairly small DPS. Would they beat a larger number of hellions in a straight fight? ABSOLUTELY. The hellions would die slow and painful deaths. But this isn't about that. This is about the fact that in the time it would take 4 stalkers to kill 10 hellions, they'd kill... I'd say, EVERY PROBE.
If you can get them in to the mineral line, yes, but as you play better and better Protoss you will find yourself having a harder time achieving that. You also risk a counterattack afterwards, because if you just lost all your hellions on a suicide mission while all his fighting units are still in tact you can be in a lot of trouble.
I also haven't provided a replay disproving your so-called "points" because this isn't a strategy post written by a 2800 master's league player, this is a blog written by a low diamond player trying to work his way around a different terran style. I don't bring AK-47s to butterknife fights.
That's alright, I'm not trying to demean where your thoughts are coming from, I'm just trying to provide more feedback and my expectations of how this pans out instead of simply saying "gl with that"
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On February 09 2011 11:07 unbal3 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 10:50 Grobyc wrote:+ Show Spoiler +If you line up like a bunch of redcoats and trade fire, sure, Collosus AoE is superior-- I was even somewhat tongue-in-cheek about it-- but with some control, especially early in the game, Hellion splash can be devastating against protoss gateway tech, especially the slower and weaker light units, such as Sentries and Zealots. If you are in a position to micro during a battle to maximize your damage, how is he not going to be able to? If you both 1a his splash > yours. If he 1as and you micro then of course you are going to have better damage efficient. What's stopping him from moving his units to lessen your splash damage in turn? You make it sound like you're saying "oh well if that just happens I'll micro better than him". This post isn't about build orders or about compositions-- mech play includes other units which use GAS and are good against stalkers. It takes a long ass time to build up a nice terran gas mech army to be able to move out for pressure. If Protoss has good stalker control you hellions will do jack shit for damage until then. By the time you move out Protoss is just going to have so much shit while having invested in his tech and economy during the mid game that he will still be able to combat you in my opinion. Also, the terran gas mech units that fare alright vs stalkers are both armoured, and stalkers are definitely not bad against them by any means either. Hellions are a mineral dump, and a great harassing unit at that-- if you can't see that, you should get a new prescription. In the beginning of my post I said they weren't useless, but I still don't think they are as great as you make them out to be TvP. I just find they have much more use as a mineral dump and for harassment in other matchups. I said stalkers are the problem, and I don't give a reason why hellions are effective against them because hellions AREN'T effective against stalkers, nor should they be. Stalkers ARE the problem, which is why you make other units. Stalkers are effective against mutalisks, too, but that doesn't mean that you can just give up on making mutalisk because the Protoss race has access to stalkers. Uhhh 1 for 1, mutalisks beat stalkers in multiple numbers. There has been analysis on it. Mutalisks have enough mobility to provide plenty of use ZvP as well. 4 stalkers defends vs like 10 hellions, so you can spread them out nicely to cover all fronts from hellions. You can't do that vs mutas. 4 stalkers blocking this route? Lets fuck 'em up with mutas. Like I said, I just don't find as much use for them in TvP. Hellion drops can be nice, but small number hellion drops sounds different than this emphasis on hellions you seem to be going for. You also didn't comment on my first point in my post about the upgrades. You also haven't provided a replay disproving and proving my points vs yours. I won't be convinced until I see proof. You apparently haven't been up against good hellion harass. Stuff hurts, dude. And why the unnecessary flaming? StarCraft isn't about definitive answers. If somebody in the year 2000 had said that forge-first FE into corsairs were a good idea against Zerg, you would have laughed; but would you now? Your xenophobic reactions are annoying and counter-productive, and I'd appreciate it if you didn't go around trying to prove how giant your penis is.
This is absurd. In what ways am I flaming anyone? Strategy related threads warrant discussion, do they not? That's all I'm doing. I haven't called anything he said stupid or idiotic. I haven't insulted him. I simply provided my feedback and expectations of how this will pan out. I don't even know where you get the e-penis thing from.
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On February 09 2011 11:10 Grobyc wrote:Show nested quote +4 Stalkers deal a fairly small DPS. Would they beat a larger number of hellions in a straight fight? ABSOLUTELY. The hellions would die slow and painful deaths. But this isn't about that. This is about the fact that in the time it would take 4 stalkers to kill 10 hellions, they'd kill... I'd say, EVERY PROBE. If you can get them in to the mineral line, yes, but as you play better and better Protoss you will find yourself having a harder time achieving that. You also risk a counterattack afterwards, because if you just lost all your hellions on a suicide mission while all his fighting units are still in tact you can be in a lot of trouble. Show nested quote +
I also haven't provided a replay disproving your so-called "points" because this isn't a strategy post written by a 2800 master's league player, this is a blog written by a low diamond player trying to work his way around a different terran style. I don't bring AK-47s to butterknife fights.
That's alright, I'm not trying to demean where your thoughts are coming from, I'm just trying to provide more feedback and my expectations of how this pans out instead of simply saying "gl with that"
You do realize he's not talking about making only hellions, right? 
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On February 09 2011 11:14 Grobyc wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 11:07 unbal3 wrote:On February 09 2011 10:50 Grobyc wrote:+ Show Spoiler +If you line up like a bunch of redcoats and trade fire, sure, Collosus AoE is superior-- I was even somewhat tongue-in-cheek about it-- but with some control, especially early in the game, Hellion splash can be devastating against protoss gateway tech, especially the slower and weaker light units, such as Sentries and Zealots. If you are in a position to micro during a battle to maximize your damage, how is he not going to be able to? If you both 1a his splash > yours. If he 1as and you micro then of course you are going to have better damage efficient. What's stopping him from moving his units to lessen your splash damage in turn? You make it sound like you're saying "oh well if that just happens I'll micro better than him". This post isn't about build orders or about compositions-- mech play includes other units which use GAS and are good against stalkers. It takes a long ass time to build up a nice terran gas mech army to be able to move out for pressure. If Protoss has good stalker control you hellions will do jack shit for damage until then. By the time you move out Protoss is just going to have so much shit while having invested in his tech and economy during the mid game that he will still be able to combat you in my opinion. Also, the terran gas mech units that fare alright vs stalkers are both armoured, and stalkers are definitely not bad against them by any means either. Hellions are a mineral dump, and a great harassing unit at that-- if you can't see that, you should get a new prescription. In the beginning of my post I said they weren't useless, but I still don't think they are as great as you make them out to be TvP. I just find they have much more use as a mineral dump and for harassment in other matchups. I said stalkers are the problem, and I don't give a reason why hellions are effective against them because hellions AREN'T effective against stalkers, nor should they be. Stalkers ARE the problem, which is why you make other units. Stalkers are effective against mutalisks, too, but that doesn't mean that you can just give up on making mutalisk because the Protoss race has access to stalkers. Uhhh 1 for 1, mutalisks beat stalkers in multiple numbers. There has been analysis on it. Mutalisks have enough mobility to provide plenty of use ZvP as well. 4 stalkers defends vs like 10 hellions, so you can spread them out nicely to cover all fronts from hellions. You can't do that vs mutas. 4 stalkers blocking this route? Lets fuck 'em up with mutas. Like I said, I just don't find as much use for them in TvP. Hellion drops can be nice, but small number hellion drops sounds different than this emphasis on hellions you seem to be going for. You also didn't comment on my first point in my post about the upgrades. You also haven't provided a replay disproving and proving my points vs yours. I won't be convinced until I see proof. You apparently haven't been up against good hellion harass. Stuff hurts, dude. And why the unnecessary flaming? StarCraft isn't about definitive answers. If somebody in the year 2000 had said that forge-first FE into corsairs were a good idea against Zerg, you would have laughed; but would you now? Your xenophobic reactions are annoying and counter-productive, and I'd appreciate it if you didn't go around trying to prove how giant your penis is. This is absurd. In what ways am I flaming anyone? Strategy related threads warrant discussion, do they not? That's all I'm doing. I haven't called anything he said stupid or idiotic. I haven't insulted him. I simply provided my feedback and expectations of how this will pan out. I don't even know where you get the e-penis thing from.
A lot of people take things personally because they don't have real lives and don't really interact with people, taking everything so literally. I wouldn't worry about it
I agree with OP. Hellions are sick. I use them all the time, and even had wins just from the first 3 blue flame drop. Gogo mech!
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On February 09 2011 11:15 TrinitySC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 11:10 Grobyc wrote:4 Stalkers deal a fairly small DPS. Would they beat a larger number of hellions in a straight fight? ABSOLUTELY. The hellions would die slow and painful deaths. But this isn't about that. This is about the fact that in the time it would take 4 stalkers to kill 10 hellions, they'd kill... I'd say, EVERY PROBE. If you can get them in to the mineral line, yes, but as you play better and better Protoss you will find yourself having a harder time achieving that. You also risk a counterattack afterwards, because if you just lost all your hellions on a suicide mission while all his fighting units are still in tact you can be in a lot of trouble.
I also haven't provided a replay disproving your so-called "points" because this isn't a strategy post written by a 2800 master's league player, this is a blog written by a low diamond player trying to work his way around a different terran style. I don't bring AK-47s to butterknife fights.
That's alright, I'm not trying to demean where your thoughts are coming from, I'm just trying to provide more feedback and my expectations of how this pans out instead of simply saying "gl with that" You do realize he's not talking about making only hellions, right?
yep I know. I'm just pointing out that if the hellions don't do sufficient damage you could end up in a disadvantage. Personally, I prefer hellion drops every now and then instead of treating them like vultures in BW. spider mines, bigger maps, no warp-in and no forcefields among other things makes vultures serve the more aggressive type of harassment that I feel the OP is trying to get across because I didn't even see the word drop in the original post.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On February 09 2011 11:23 Grobyc wrote: I didn't even see the word drop in the original post.
You also don't see the word run-by... but I consider drops and run-bys to be standard fare for hellions. I'm not suggesting you A-move hellions at the front of an army, or you have them prioritize destructible rocks or blatantly ignore basic hellion tactics, despite what you seem to think i'm saying-- I'm noting the effectiveness of hellions against certain specific non-standard targets, namely, gateway units that aren't stalkers.
This is about an alternate use for hellions that lets them be more of a mainstay as a mineral dump. I'm sorry that you weren't able to understand that.
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I don't think it's right of you to tell me what I did and didn't understand. I'm just providing feedback based on my opinions and my experience (I play Terran in SC2 fyi, I'm not just some Protoss who feels the need to pop in here and say every Terran strategy will fail, despite how some people interpret it). I merely said the following:
a) I don't think hellions can be compared super aggro purpose vultures in BW
b) The more hellions you make the greater you venge in to the risk zone
c) because of that, I prefer pretty well only small drop-oriented hellion play in TvP
d) Hellions have a greater purpose in other matchups
e) The better Protoss you play, the less success you will have will higher hellion counts generally
f) Those are my personal thoughts unless I see proof suggesting otherwise.
I prefer a more bio-oriented play for many of those reasons. I think marines are a safer mineral dump when it comes to that regard as well.
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On February 09 2011 11:07 unbal3 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2011 10:50 Grobyc wrote:+ Show Spoiler +If you line up like a bunch of redcoats and trade fire, sure, Collosus AoE is superior-- I was even somewhat tongue-in-cheek about it-- but with some control, especially early in the game, Hellion splash can be devastating against protoss gateway tech, especially the slower and weaker light units, such as Sentries and Zealots. If you are in a position to micro during a battle to maximize your damage, how is he not going to be able to? If you both 1a his splash > yours. If he 1as and you micro then of course you are going to have better damage efficient. What's stopping him from moving his units to lessen your splash damage in turn? You make it sound like you're saying "oh well if that just happens I'll micro better than him". This post isn't about build orders or about compositions-- mech play includes other units which use GAS and are good against stalkers. It takes a long ass time to build up a nice terran gas mech army to be able to move out for pressure. If Protoss has good stalker control you hellions will do jack shit for damage until then. By the time you move out Protoss is just going to have so much shit while having invested in his tech and economy during the mid game that he will still be able to combat you in my opinion. Also, the terran gas mech units that fare alright vs stalkers are both armoured, and stalkers are definitely not bad against them by any means either. Hellions are a mineral dump, and a great harassing unit at that-- if you can't see that, you should get a new prescription. In the beginning of my post I said they weren't useless, but I still don't think they are as great as you make them out to be TvP. I just find they have much more use as a mineral dump and for harassment in other matchups. I said stalkers are the problem, and I don't give a reason why hellions are effective against them because hellions AREN'T effective against stalkers, nor should they be. Stalkers ARE the problem, which is why you make other units. Stalkers are effective against mutalisks, too, but that doesn't mean that you can just give up on making mutalisk because the Protoss race has access to stalkers. Uhhh 1 for 1, mutalisks beat stalkers in multiple numbers. There has been analysis on it. Mutalisks have enough mobility to provide plenty of use ZvP as well. 4 stalkers defends vs like 10 hellions, so you can spread them out nicely to cover all fronts from hellions. You can't do that vs mutas. 4 stalkers blocking this route? Lets fuck 'em up with mutas. Like I said, I just don't find as much use for them in TvP. Hellion drops can be nice, but small number hellion drops sounds different than this emphasis on hellions you seem to be going for. You also didn't comment on my first point in my post about the upgrades. You also haven't provided a replay disproving and proving my points vs yours. I won't be convinced until I see proof. You apparently haven't been up against good hellion harass. Stuff hurts, dude. And why the unnecessary flaming? StarCraft isn't about definitive answers. If somebody in the year 2000 had said that forge-first FE into corsairs were a good idea against Zerg, you would have laughed; but would you now?.
Yes, have you seen the maps played in 2000? Most of them can't even be walled in with forge-cannon, not to mention some have absurdly long distance naturals or mineral only naturals.
Anyways, back on topic. It won't work, hellions die too fast to colossus/storm and have very slow attack speed so 7 shots is much longer than you're making it out to be. I'm not sure why you wasted so much time talking about zealot armor vs. upgrades and how great +2 vehicle wep is and then when questioned about it said it's more about early game. Yeah, there might be some interesting timing pushes TvP with mm + blue flme hellions against robo obs FE toss who rely on ff to stay alive with lots of sentries cause they spent so much minerals on FE and you can snipe sentries or w/e but that's not what you're really talking about. (plus someone so greedy could be killed off better with a 3 rax + scans probably)
You're saying it's an early game mineral dump vs. gateway units, which doesn't make sense cause you can just expand, or build more marines. Against every early game protoss unit composition it seems spending a lot of minerals on blue flame hellions will just get you killed cept maybe vs. zealot stalker pheonix but since you're building hellions you have a low marine count so pheonix would just pick up the hellions.
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Grobyc, you have to consider the fact that marines are nullified by storm if it goes to late game.
Hellions' best utility TvP is the fact that they are the only T unit that outruns the stalker, being able to harrass multiple bases at the same time w/out the use of medivacs.
I personally think they actually allow me (as terran) a bigger margin of error in unit control, because they can effectively dodge 2 or perhaps even 3 storms and still do damage.
Obviously good P's will block that, but once it gets to 5 bases it will become increasingly difficult and you'll make them deplete sentry and HT energy just for minerals.
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On February 09 2011 12:35 Sadistx wrote:
Grobyc, you have to consider the fact that marines are nullified by storm if it goes to late game..
I wouldn't say completely nullified; I use a lot of ghosts and EMP in my TvP when I go bio.
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Here's one thing that's good/annoying about Hellions: they can offer map control and pinning much in the same way that slings or mutas do. A blue-flame hellion run-by is just as scary as a ling run-by or mutas in the mineral line. It makes being spread out or on two bases a living nightmare for Toss. The point is, including some serious focus on Blue-flame hellions from early to midgame will keep the toss pressured and give you room to tech/expand/get more tanks/thors etc. and is pretty important for mech play.
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EPT
