EPTWhy so much Terran success in GSL? - Page 25
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FroZen(-_-)
United States183 Posts
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Bonham
Canada655 Posts
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RemrafGrez
United States180 Posts
On January 21 2011 02:22 tapk69 wrote: I would like to see these guys who says MKP sucks play with terran with just marines , i really would .. A-MOVE , click , A-MOVE? is that so ? wow youre are good , so you haven,t seen MKP send 1 marine ahead stimmed , then split the marines 4 times and do that again over and over when a simple misclick killed all his forces? you havent seen this while doing scvs , expanding , teching ? so a guy who does everything right all games suck? You all say Jinro is so good , yes he is good , yes i do love to see him play , have you seen him do marine spliting 30x a game? No ... because he could lose the whole game with bad clicks.. but MKP doesnt care he just entertains us .. At least for meMarineKing is awesome... AWESOME, I do not doubt it. I don't want marines nerfed just because he is so fun to watch. But honestly, Terran has way too many little advantages that end up added up to Terran dominating the top spots at GSL over and over and over. The bigger things are: 1. Great defense early game against most stuff. 2. Can adjust any early build to handle anything the other guy is doing if T scouts it. Which tends to make Z and P try more macro. Which tends to allow an all-in for T to be more successful. 3. Less risk all over. 4. High DPS units all around. Meaning little groups do big damage if Z and P doesn't have defense or perfect scouting. 5. Maps can only favor Terran, so far, that we have seen. Zerg has some big map advantages though. 6. Expansions. Can get an expansion up and running in 15 seconds due to floating base, MULES. I mean, you scout the gold, die to a marine. One minute later you scout again and you see Terran has been mining the crap out of it and you are now behind and may lose. 7. Expansions. Can float away vs a lot of things if OC. Planetaries are super hard to deal with in a CLOSE game. 8. Best harassment all game except mutas and late game high templar/dark templar in close matches. | ||
bkrow
Australia8532 Posts
On January 21 2011 06:54 Jermstuddog wrote: ok, smaller investment, put the zealot next to another zealot! That's cuz we all know July isn't good at SC though. If he were good, he would have picked Terran... Scrub B-teamer IMO Umm... top Zerg and Protoss have always been getting eliminated by lesser Terrans since GSL 1... So the exact situation you've described is already happening, can we call imba now? I suppose you just hate terran (as you said in your original post on this forum) - i guess we all need excuses in life.. even after multiple patches.. | ||
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Spekulatius
Germany2413 Posts
On January 21 2011 06:49 Torpedo.Vegas wrote: Think what the state of the game could be if players directed all this energy and motivation from hammering on Blizzards door about issues and imbalances, and instead put it towards developing ways around issues with the tools at hand. I think we would have a much high quality competitive platform for the community stand on, who if they did declare IMBA, may be taken more seriously by the powers that be instead of each race calling IMBA on every little thing from the pixel placement to box art. I think JP addressed this in SotG #22 or 23. Thing is, Blizzard actually got immensely connected to the community, listened to people's complains, tinkered the balance (yea I know they're lagging behind on the maps situation, but noone has a definitive answer to yet, so why exactly should they?) and overall did a pretty good job - it's just that people feel they got involved, they are asked to speak aloud and that's where all the QQing is coming from. If Blizzard just didn't care about people's opinions, the game development would be drastically lagging behind; but on the other hand, all the whiners wouldn't have anyone to whine to. There's always two sides to a coin. And that's what we see here. But I guess I'd rather have it like this than the other way around. | ||
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KahunaNui
Spain257 Posts
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Sonictonic
Sweden62 Posts
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RemrafGrez
United States180 Posts
On January 21 2011 03:09 IntoTheBush wrote: You obviously never played Terran, and haven't made it out of Plat yet. So lets move on to your quotes, and how they make no sense. "But a very low risk, high reward harass like an 8 marine drop when the enemy is out of position can completely swing the game back to even. And no other race has the same ability." Looks like somebody has never heard of a warp prism, or a proxy pylon. Also you know those annoying things called Mutalisks? get 12 of those and u can cause havoc for a Terran player who doesnt have a Thor or more than 3 Turrets in his main. So there's one point where you're wrong. Lets move onto the 2nd. "A cloak banshee rush is a standard Terran bo that can 100% destroy many P/Z bos, and yet not only does it only barely put T behind, but it can end the game RIGHT THERE." Ok once again my friend you are wrong. Any HIGH level Diamond player or Master League player can easily prepare for Banshee. Honestly I don't remember when I HAVEN'T played a P or Z who wasnt nearly prepared or already prepared for possible Banshee. Also once that fails that leaves u with what? MAYBE 2 barracks, and ur natural just completing.. while P or Z already has their 3 gates, or Zerg double injecting larva and making a rofflestomp army. Terran is behind MORE than just a little bit if Banshee fails. Next to good ol' quote number 3. "You can literally lose your entire army as a T, and as long as you have a couple bunkers up, 400 minerals(2 MULEs) worth of marines, 2 siege tanks, and 4 repairing scvs, you can hold off anything short of basically an all-in push by your opponent. And this turtling abilty won't win you games outright, but it just gives your opponent that many more chances to make a mistake that puts the t right back into the game." I mean I honestly don't even have to say anything for this one... BUT I will. First off 95% of Terran players destroy their bunkers and use the marines before they move out for an attack. Second off after you kill your opponents entire army why are u going straight in for an attack? That is if you don't have the ROFLSTOMP army. If you kill their entire army your next move is to expand, get map control, and not sucide what units you have left. Maybe you should start watching the Day[9] daily's and you won't sound completely wrong when you post. Banshees are about 1000 times better than a dark temp rush if prepared against. They ONLY die if you let them since they fly and are faster than Z or P detection. They always do damage and almost always pay for themselves... if not in kills then in anti-banshee costs. Granted, it takes good control to make banshees pay for themself... not a problem in pro leagues or (you would hope) masters. Whats more important though, is that if Terran has started down the path for cloaked banshees, he can switch his build and be OK if he decides he should. NOT possible for 95% of Z or P "risky" builds. | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On January 21 2011 07:03 bkrow wrote: I suppose you just hate terran (as you said in your original post on this forum) - i guess we all need excuses in life.. even after multiple patches.. Multiple patch what? The marine rampages on... | ||
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Sabu113
United States11035 Posts
Generally any response by a terran player (denoted by their TL icon) if they respond to another post typically concedes the weaknesses of the other race or procedes to tell the other players to l2p. Quite a few extremely defensive and condescending posts. It is very interesting that there are very very few toss/zerg who are sympathetic to the terran argument. Overall I think the Z and P present their side pretty well and there is very little in the way of a rebuttal besides Naz's lone post and a few other gems. The best counter-arguement about the OPness of the race is thew nature of Toss and Zergs ability to completely shut down certain unit compositions by terran. Maybe once we refine the tells we'll be able to know when we can skip that robo and jump directly for templar or voidrays etc. Also, the MKP marine spam bit is not a neg. It takes great mechanical ability and strategic thought to get that much mileage. Still I am very sympathetic to the arguement that terrans have the best options to fight themselves back to an advantage. Bwhahaa On January 21 2011 01:02 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Easier to play terran safely when you are the better player, as well as easier to play terran cheesily when you arent. EDIT: My clairvoyance tells me this is going to get quoted along with a bunker rush game from not too long ago. God Jinro is almost too nice to the forums. | ||
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Al Bundy
7257 Posts
On January 21 2011 06:19 Roblin wrote: please for the love of god mister AlBundy, go out on ladder, play zerg, evolve a build or strategy that allows you to put pressure (as in serious pressure (that directly wins you games at least 10 % of the time on equal skill)) in the early game on a non-zerg opponent while having an equal or greater economy than said opponent at all times during the game, while being flexible enough to instantly defend any all-in or cheese. when you have done this, please, tell me about it! because I have given up hope on an aggressive non all-in for zerg. as a matter of fact, Listen up TL community! all zerg players out there! I give you a challenge! evolve a build or strategy that satisfies the above conditions, and make a thread about it! and if you find that this is impossible, make a thread detailing (down to everything) exactly why you can state that that is true by only using valid facts that can be measured or known! (ex: timings, build times, training times, larvae spawn etc.) p.s. Suddenly. Motivation. Unfortunately I am not knowledgeable enough about Zerg so I can't really make a contribution towards Z strategy. However I don't want to fall into a hopeless state of mind; I'd say that I'm optimist, even though some people may call me stupid or naive. | ||
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Demarini
United States151 Posts
On January 21 2011 07:24 AlBundy wrote: Unfortunately I am not knowledgeable enough about Zerg so I can't really make a contribution towards Z strategy. However I don't want to fall into a hopeless state of mind; I'd say that I'm optimist, even though some people may call me stupid or naive. I don't see any reason why Zerg couldn't come up with BOs that allows pressure, expanding, mid-game transitions etc. Why would you ever say that then. | ||
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RemrafGrez
United States180 Posts
On January 21 2011 04:11 Deadlyfish wrote: I dont know who would think that MVP, MKP and Jinro are only in ro4 because they chose the right race. They are there because they are the best players. They have all shown how consistent they are, and they all know how to play a heavy macro game (they arent just cheesers). Ok, i play terran, but seeing how MVP and MKP plays is just amazing, more so than watching a top level zerg or protoss play. Obviously i'm biased because i'm terran, but besides a few (MC season 3 for example) i havent seen innovative and such brilliant play from the other races. What i mean is that it's hard for me to say what the major differences are between the good zergs and the best zergs. But there is a huge difference between a player like MVP, and then a decent Terran like hyperdub or Maka. Even if you think Terran is OP, you have to admit that players like Boxer, Nada, MVP, Jinro and MKP make Terran look easy  And that they have shown us some of the most innovative, brilliant and sexy play.I couldn't agree more about your last paragraph. Those guys have played brilliantly and I loved watching all their games! Z and P just need more options so they can compete in a fair game, beginning to end. | ||
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Toadvine
Poland2234 Posts
On January 21 2011 06:46 BroodjeBaller wrote: You can act all defensive about your race and stuff, but you have to realize that this problem can possibly destroy sc2 as an esport. GSL is not the only tournament with this problem. Spectators dont want to see terran games all the time. Quoting for emphasis. However you explain the Terran dominance phenomenon itself, it clearly doesn't help SC2 as an esport. @ Cost-effectiveness of Zerg units As a Protoss player, I'm quite terrified of Roach heavy play. The only thing that stops Protoss from straight up dying to it are Forcefields. No Protoss unit composition is really efficient at killing Roaches in a straight up battle (aside from some theoretical Immortal heavy play, which would lose to everything not-Roach however). That's why the 3 gate sentry expand is so popular in PvZ nowadays, you really need a lot of Forcefields. And if a bad engagement happens, and you lose your Sentries, you've practically lost the game right there. Not qualified to talk about TvZ, but in PvZ a fair amount of Zerg units feel very cost-effective unless engaging in very specific circumstances (in a Forcefielded choke). | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
GSL has done a very good job pulling out crap maps in each matchup this season. For instance, we havn't seen any TvZ on steppes (but they kept bassin on TvZ, I think they'll remove it next GSL ?) We have the 3 best players in the world in top 4 atm : MVP, MKP and Nestea. Yeah, MC isn't here but he could have, he had to win one game out of two against jinro to be in ro4, and I don't think anyone can say the 2 MC vs Jinro games have shown imbalance. So my point again : yes, data could show imbalance, but when you have watched the actual games, you see there wasn't any imbalance involved except in 2 or 3 occurences, and those were maps imbalance. | ||
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AdamBanks
Canada996 Posts
On January 21 2011 07:42 MrCon wrote: Actualy, having watched all GSL games since season 1, I think this season shows the most balanced games. Each terran win has been legit, so the stats can be abnormal but on the "field" nothing has shown imbalance, except perhaps terran vs zerg on meta close positions (and some maps like jungle bassin) GSL has done a very good job pulling out crap maps in each matchup this season. For instance, we havn't seen any TvZ on steppes (but they kept bassin on TvZ, I think they'll remove it next GSL ?) We have the 3 best players in the world in top 4 atm : MVP, MKP and Nestea. Yeah, MC isn't here but he could have, he had to win one game out of two against jinro to be in ro4, and I don't think anyone can say the 2 MC vs Jinro games have shown imbalance. So my point again : yes, data could show imbalance, but when you have watched the actual games, you see there wasn't any imbalance involved except in 2 or 3 occurences, and those were maps imbalance. QFT | ||
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sjschmidt93
United States2518 Posts
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XerrolAvengerII
United States510 Posts
On January 21 2011 06:34 Demarini wrote: They had flying early game DTs. Grats on Banshees being tier 3, and you not dealing with it... like 1 cannon, comeon, or one of those cheap as dirt observers since your gonna get colossus anyway. They had super harvesters that can be thrown down multiple times. I wouldn't mind trading for chrono boost, man, if I had chrono boost, my proxy raxx bunker rushes would be so sexy! They had static anti air with splash damage with a high rate of fire that builds incredible fast.....that has an upgrade. Sounds like a thor... except thors don't build fast... maybe you mean the missile turret? nope, that doesn't have splash... hmmm... what could it be... Marines in a bunker? no, you mention that somewhere else... damn, I WANT this thing! They had a protective shell for their units that they can get an instant refund for at any given time....that has an upgrade. Cool for not being able to make units in 5 seconds or making a bajilion units at a time or after i lose a 200/200 army... that would be cool. But I guess I have to settle for saving my rear with a refundable shell. They had a supertank for an expansion that can be repaired. Too bad I can't move it... oh well. What can I say, gotta make up the immobility of Terran for something. BTW did you know that most units move faster than Terran units right? Lets face it, the only fast moving terran unit is the hellion. Just about everything (except reapers and some air untis) move at 2.25... also, most alien air units move faster than Terran units. (not included the awesome broodlord or carrier, which are awesome... and I'm jealous that your Carrier can outrun my Battlecruiser) They had a unit that had the longest range in the game that dealt massive amounts of splash damage that also has the smartest AI in the game which gave it zero overkill. First of all, the AI is not as perfect as you think... Second of all, the damage is not even that great, its something like 16.5 dps against armored. Cool for having long range, but being slow and cumbersome. You know what, trade you for a colossus that can cliffwalk, has long range, and deals epic splash damage. They had an early game harassing mineral costing only unit that had splash damage with no risk and high reward. No risk? Okay... They had a flying dropship medic. Now your just trolling... I wish I could mass a caster that could hold my enemies in place and prevent them from microing so my cute little suicide units can destroy their whole army... OR I wish I had a dropship that could let me build units in my enemies base in 5 seconds... But oh well. I guess my thors and hellions and tanks get to miss out on the green love beams! They they could tech to multiple paths off one base. Protoss has stronger 1 base play than terran... Zerg has best tech switch power of all the races thanks to larva... i'm not saying its imbalanced or anything... like seriously... its fine. They could scout by just clicking a spot and viewing instantly what is at the location....AT THE COST OF A PRECIOUS MULE HOW WILL I EVER 6 RAX??!?! NOOOOOOO Yea... pay 300 minerals for information... thats sooo OP man... I mean, scan is nice... but I would trade for Chrono. Hm...wait they have all of those don't they? Just about, except that static defense with splash damage that builds fast and hits air units... I couldn't find that one. Terran have some nice stuff eh? But i'm not gonna deny that I'm jealous of some of the cool toys you aliens get. | ||
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