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On December 23 2010 02:59 Longshank wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 23 2010 02:28 MorroW wrote:
when we saw this event we quickly realized if both if us played it and won half of the tours then we wouldnt get the computer (there are about 16 tours and need 11 tour wins to get the computer). assuming we would win half of these each which would make us 3 steps away from getting it
so we asked maven if it was allowed to play the finals and give the win to the other player even if someone else won. for example if me and sjow met in finals and then we stacked all wins to sjows "thorphy table". he said he was ok and i thought it was ok going to IOL on the bus but when i got there it was not the case. we were not allowed to stack all wins to 1 player
in all honesty im far from a cheater, i have never cheated in my life and im a serious gamer.
i thought i could keep the stream on because its not like were gonna talk anything dirty about cheating. we were just honestly asking the admins of the tournament if it was allowed to give the wins to 1 player if we met in the finals. which was not allowed
and from here rakaka took over and made the story alot more interesting than it actually is haha
if its allowed by the admins to split wins like that then u shouldnt call the gamers cheaters or anything, then you should complaint to the admins and orga for allowing it to happen. me and sjow are good friends and we knew we would be the far superior players at this backdoor neighbour events thats why we wanted to work together so we wouldnt sabotage each other so nobody of us would get the computer, it actually makes alot of sense.
you cant blame players for things they do might be boring or lame, just when i abused reapers in the IEM germany, its imbalanced and i said it myself but you shouldnt call me a lame player for doing it, you should put the blame on the game for being imbalanced. its quite the same concept if u think about it really
me and sjow came to a new conclusion now anyway and we decided only 1 player should stay and play these tournaments and it turns out to be sjow. just to make it extra clear only 1 of us plays this because if both plays it theres a big risk neither of us gets the computer and that would be such a tragedy
lets just cheer for sjow to get the computer asap. if the cs players get 11 wins before sjow does, then they will take both the computers they have on their giveout and once sjow reach 11 wins he wont get any computer. thats why its so important that 1 person wins all tours in a row
many are talking about rigging games as in acting the finals when one player plays on purpose badly so he loses. we were never going to do this ofcourse. we were gonna play finals and have a nice time and let the best player win, and then give the actual prize wins to 1 person.
this is not anything like koreas match making scandal^^
ive been a member of the sc community for a long time and ive been a very mannered and competitive one aswell with high goals in the game.
it would never come to me to cheat in events and thats why i wanted to make sure with the admins it was allowed to pile up all wins on 1 person because personally i thought it sounded silly and didnt believe we would be allowed to do so, which turned out to be true.
just wanna give a big cheers to inferno online they have let me practice there for over a month for free and hosting such awesome events. i wish the guys who participate in it the best of luck and ill leave sjow to this one
i never meant to do anything that i knew was wrong. we were told it was allowed but once i got there it was completely different. all we have done really is just to ask if something was allowed by the admins and they said it was ok and will work something out, and later on changing their mind and then rakaka took it from there Put this in the OP and lock the thread imo. The amount of haters who can't be arsed to read is disgusting.
Second. This is pointless now.
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Man this is a tough one. The way I understand it, you have to win 11 out of 18 tournaments. Morrow and Sjow know they are the best, and they might split 9/9 or something like 9/8/1 with somebody else winning one. That being said, nobody would win the prize. So they decide that only one of them will play and they will split it. This doesn't really screw anybody except spectators and the people that ran this tournament.
If what I said above was true, I really can't say this is cheating... it's just... being very shady.
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No offense TL, but may I ask why this thread is not locked? The issue has been explain fully by you and by all parties. Enough said 
EDIT: The reason I ask is because both Sjow and MorroW's rep is slowly dwindling even though it's all blown out of proportion.
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On December 23 2010 02:53 Random() wrote:
I wonder why people had no problems with Koreans throwing matches at WCG to avoid eliminating each other, but suddenly some guys trying to abuse the system in a local tournament should be lynched.
In my opinion it is as much the organizer's fault as it is theirs. There should not be any incentive to throw matches just because of the tournament's format.
There is NO incentive to throw matches. The point of this tournament`s format is to reward a player that actually is dominant (11/18). If they believe they can`t do that against each other than they don`t deserve it period. It cheapens the competitive spirit if they try to arrange anything just to get the prize.
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On December 23 2010 02:46 Treemonkeys wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 23 2010 02:28 MorroW wrote:
when we saw this event we quickly realized if both if us played it and won half of the tours then we wouldnt get the computer (there are about 16 tours and need 11 tour wins to get the computer). assuming we would win half of these each which would make us 3 steps away from getting it
so we asked maven if it was allowed to play the finals and give the win to the other player even if someone else won. for example if me and sjow met in finals and then we stacked all wins to sjows "thorphy table". he said he was ok and i thought it was ok going to IOL on the bus but when i got there it was not the case. we were not allowed to stack all wins to 1 player
in all honesty im far from a cheater, i have never cheated in my life and im a serious gamer.
i thought i could keep the stream on because its not like were gonna talk anything dirty about cheating. we were just honestly asking the admins of the tournament if it was allowed to give the wins to 1 player if we met in the finals. which was not allowed
and from here rakaka took over and made the story alot more interesting than it actually is haha
if its allowed by the admins to split wins like that then u shouldnt call the gamers cheaters or anything, then you should complaint to the admins and orga for allowing it to happen. me and sjow are good friends and we knew we would be the far superior players at this backdoor neighbour events thats why we wanted to work together so we wouldnt sabotage each other so nobody of us would get the computer, it actually makes alot of sense.
you cant blame players for things they do might be boring or lame, just when i abused reapers in the IEM germany, its imbalanced and i said it myself but you shouldnt call me a lame player for doing it, you should put the blame on the game for being imbalanced. its quite the same concept if u think about it really
me and sjow came to a new conclusion now anyway and we decided only 1 player should stay and play these tournaments and it turns out to be sjow. just to make it extra clear only 1 of us plays this because if both plays it theres a big risk neither of us gets the computer and that would be such a tragedy
lets just cheer for sjow to get the computer asap. if the cs players get 11 wins before sjow does, then they will take both the computers they have on their giveout and once sjow reach 11 wins he wont get any computer. thats why its so important that 1 person wins all tours in a row
many are talking about rigging games as in acting the finals when one player plays on purpose badly so he loses. we were never going to do this ofcourse. we were gonna play finals and have a nice time and let the best player win, and then give the actual prize wins to 1 person.
this is not anything like koreas match making scandal^^
ive been a member of the sc community for a long time and ive been a very mannered and competitive one aswell with high goals in the game.
it would never come to me to cheat in events and thats why i wanted to make sure with the admins it was allowed to pile up all wins on 1 person because personally i thought it sounded silly and didnt believe we would be allowed to do so, which turned out to be true.
just wanna give a big cheers to inferno online they have let me practice there for over a month for free and hosting such awesome events. i wish the guys who participate in it the best of luck and ill leave sjow to this one
i never meant to do anything that i knew was wrong. we were told it was allowed but once i got there it was completely different. all we have done really is just to ask if something was allowed by the admins and they said it was ok and will work something out, and later on changing their mind and then rakaka took it from there Oh please, you are really going to bring balance into this discussion? The fact is you were looking to match fix to get an easy computer. You were looking for the easiest way to get the prize, by slacking off competition. To make it worse you were doing this on a "small" no name tournament where the two of you could clean house. Yeah financially we know how it makes sense. It's obvious, but don't talk about how you are a serious gamer when you just explained in depth how you were going blow off competition, blow off the game, to get the prize as easy as possible. You aren't a serious gamer, you just want the prize, even if you can get it by not even playing.
No this is not about match fixing to get an easy computer. In fact, by only having Sjow participating, Sjow is basically guaranteed to get the computer. Is this also cheating for you? Is it cheating that Morrow does not try to stand in Sjow's way.
What would have happened does not change at all. That Sjow will get the computer. What Morrow wanted was to play in the tournament and arguably since this is a small tournament, having Morrow in it will increase the quality and popularity. In fact, Morrow does not have to join at all because him getting half the computer is guaranteed. If anything , Morrow joining ensure us of a good final at least because he already said they will play for real. They just wanted to ask the admin if its ok that regardless what happened in that match, Sjow will be determined the winner.
Admin says NO and that's that. Morrow decided not to join, nothing happened. Sjow is still gonna 11-0 ( or 11-1 since they missed one).
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On December 23 2010 03:00 Utinni wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 02:59 Longshank wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 23 2010 02:28 MorroW wrote:
when we saw this event we quickly realized if both if us played it and won half of the tours then we wouldnt get the computer (there are about 16 tours and need 11 tour wins to get the computer). assuming we would win half of these each which would make us 3 steps away from getting it
so we asked maven if it was allowed to play the finals and give the win to the other player even if someone else won. for example if me and sjow met in finals and then we stacked all wins to sjows "thorphy table". he said he was ok and i thought it was ok going to IOL on the bus but when i got there it was not the case. we were not allowed to stack all wins to 1 player
in all honesty im far from a cheater, i have never cheated in my life and im a serious gamer.
i thought i could keep the stream on because its not like were gonna talk anything dirty about cheating. we were just honestly asking the admins of the tournament if it was allowed to give the wins to 1 player if we met in the finals. which was not allowed
and from here rakaka took over and made the story alot more interesting than it actually is haha
if its allowed by the admins to split wins like that then u shouldnt call the gamers cheaters or anything, then you should complaint to the admins and orga for allowing it to happen. me and sjow are good friends and we knew we would be the far superior players at this backdoor neighbour events thats why we wanted to work together so we wouldnt sabotage each other so nobody of us would get the computer, it actually makes alot of sense.
you cant blame players for things they do might be boring or lame, just when i abused reapers in the IEM germany, its imbalanced and i said it myself but you shouldnt call me a lame player for doing it, you should put the blame on the game for being imbalanced. its quite the same concept if u think about it really
me and sjow came to a new conclusion now anyway and we decided only 1 player should stay and play these tournaments and it turns out to be sjow. just to make it extra clear only 1 of us plays this because if both plays it theres a big risk neither of us gets the computer and that would be such a tragedy
lets just cheer for sjow to get the computer asap. if the cs players get 11 wins before sjow does, then they will take both the computers they have on their giveout and once sjow reach 11 wins he wont get any computer. thats why its so important that 1 person wins all tours in a row
many are talking about rigging games as in acting the finals when one player plays on purpose badly so he loses. we were never going to do this ofcourse. we were gonna play finals and have a nice time and let the best player win, and then give the actual prize wins to 1 person.
this is not anything like koreas match making scandal^^
ive been a member of the sc community for a long time and ive been a very mannered and competitive one aswell with high goals in the game.
it would never come to me to cheat in events and thats why i wanted to make sure with the admins it was allowed to pile up all wins on 1 person because personally i thought it sounded silly and didnt believe we would be allowed to do so, which turned out to be true.
just wanna give a big cheers to inferno online they have let me practice there for over a month for free and hosting such awesome events. i wish the guys who participate in it the best of luck and ill leave sjow to this one
i never meant to do anything that i knew was wrong. we were told it was allowed but once i got there it was completely different. all we have done really is just to ask if something was allowed by the admins and they said it was ok and will work something out, and later on changing their mind and then rakaka took it from there Put this in the OP and lock the thread imo. The amount of haters who can't be arsed to read is disgusting. Second. This is pointless now.
YES, please do this.
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On December 23 2010 02:52 Batch wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 02:46 Treemonkeys wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 23 2010 02:28 MorroW wrote:
when we saw this event we quickly realized if both if us played it and won half of the tours then we wouldnt get the computer (there are about 16 tours and need 11 tour wins to get the computer). assuming we would win half of these each which would make us 3 steps away from getting it
so we asked maven if it was allowed to play the finals and give the win to the other player even if someone else won. for example if me and sjow met in finals and then we stacked all wins to sjows "thorphy table". he said he was ok and i thought it was ok going to IOL on the bus but when i got there it was not the case. we were not allowed to stack all wins to 1 player
in all honesty im far from a cheater, i have never cheated in my life and im a serious gamer.
i thought i could keep the stream on because its not like were gonna talk anything dirty about cheating. we were just honestly asking the admins of the tournament if it was allowed to give the wins to 1 player if we met in the finals. which was not allowed
and from here rakaka took over and made the story alot more interesting than it actually is haha
if its allowed by the admins to split wins like that then u shouldnt call the gamers cheaters or anything, then you should complaint to the admins and orga for allowing it to happen. me and sjow are good friends and we knew we would be the far superior players at this backdoor neighbour events thats why we wanted to work together so we wouldnt sabotage each other so nobody of us would get the computer, it actually makes alot of sense.
you cant blame players for things they do might be boring or lame, just when i abused reapers in the IEM germany, its imbalanced and i said it myself but you shouldnt call me a lame player for doing it, you should put the blame on the game for being imbalanced. its quite the same concept if u think about it really
me and sjow came to a new conclusion now anyway and we decided only 1 player should stay and play these tournaments and it turns out to be sjow. just to make it extra clear only 1 of us plays this because if both plays it theres a big risk neither of us gets the computer and that would be such a tragedy
lets just cheer for sjow to get the computer asap. if the cs players get 11 wins before sjow does, then they will take both the computers they have on their giveout and once sjow reach 11 wins he wont get any computer. thats why its so important that 1 person wins all tours in a row
many are talking about rigging games as in acting the finals when one player plays on purpose badly so he loses. we were never going to do this ofcourse. we were gonna play finals and have a nice time and let the best player win, and then give the actual prize wins to 1 person.
this is not anything like koreas match making scandal^^
ive been a member of the sc community for a long time and ive been a very mannered and competitive one aswell with high goals in the game.
it would never come to me to cheat in events and thats why i wanted to make sure with the admins it was allowed to pile up all wins on 1 person because personally i thought it sounded silly and didnt believe we would be allowed to do so, which turned out to be true.
just wanna give a big cheers to inferno online they have let me practice there for over a month for free and hosting such awesome events. i wish the guys who participate in it the best of luck and ill leave sjow to this one
i never meant to do anything that i knew was wrong. we were told it was allowed but once i got there it was completely different. all we have done really is just to ask if something was allowed by the admins and they said it was ok and will work something out, and later on changing their mind and then rakaka took it from there Oh please, you are really going to bring balance into this discussion? The fact is you were looking to match fix to get an easy computer. You were looking for the easiest way to get the prize, by slacking off competition. To make it worse you were doing this on a "small" no name tournament where the two of you could clean house. Yeah financially we know how it makes sense. It's obvious, but don't talk about how you are a serious gamer when you just explained in depth how you were going blow off competition, blow off the game, to get the prize as easy as possible. You aren't a serious gamer, you just want the prize, even if you can get it by not even playing. According to Morrow they never talk anything about throwing matches. They asked if they could play the games and afterwards give the win to one of them even if he didn't win.
According to the morrow posting now or according to the morrow chatting in his stream? 
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On December 23 2010 02:54 Gigaudas wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 02:52 Doriboi wrote:
Morrow,
The discussion of splitting games is considered match fixing and is cheating. You say you don't cheat, perhaps you are looking at it in terms of using hacks like income or map vision. But remember the same case this year which had Savior and GoGo end up being persecuted and prosecuted by authorities in Korea. Even though the administrators do not know any better. You do. I am really disappointed that high level play is about prize splitting. Very disappointing Morrow and Sjow. Read the quote at the top of the OP? This is nothing like throwing games or even wanting to throw games.
It is. Prize splitting is exactly that. Play the game, if the winner wants to donate his winnings to the loser, give him a I-99 form for a tax deduction, that is legal. Look this was a matter of time before we see something like what happened at MLG with Super Smash Brothers.
While the BW players threw matches because of gambling influences, the players here threw wins so one could get a prize.
On December 22 2010 15:30 SjoW wrote:
Lets make this clear. We both wanted to participate on this league and if both would participate on this tournament it would decrease our chances of winning the grandprize (a computer).
The league consists of 18 tournaments and is played once a day. For every first place you get a prize and climb one step closer to the grandprize. You ultimatly need to win 11 tournament to get the grandprize and when there is only 18 tournaments, only one can get the grandprize.
So we both agreed it would be better if we split the prizes and just let one of us win everyone. (we assumed we would go to the finals everytime since we would be in diffrent part of brackets because of seeds, we didnt see any harm in it.
We talked with the organisation and they didnt allow us to do fixed matches. Now only one of us gonna play.
On December 22 2010 23:41 Ipp wrote:
So what happened? The event is a set of 18 “LAN” tournaments that will not be streamed. If you win 11 out of the 18, you get a very nice computer. As MorroW and SjoW are the only 2 pros competing, they plan to get to the finals every time. As they are equal in skill level, it is unlikely for one them to go 11 and 18. So they discussed making a pact starting that one will always forfeit; why? Because if they unlock all the prizes both of them can get a 1st place prize pool and come out winners.
So explain to me how throwing games is not cheating or match fixing?
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This topic is a fine example of how text and words can be misconstrued and interpreted wrong or differently than it was intended. Cheating to win is cheating. This is essentially making it so no one else has a chance to win. "Matchfixing" is not "cheating". The two players still have to fight their way to the top to meet in the finals.
That said it's still a sore sight to see this happening or being thought of.
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This whole discussion just blows my mind. Just asking myself what is more plausible:
a) I am discussing with my friend how we can win this computer, come up with an solution and asking the admins about it if this is possible within the rules
b) I am planning Match fixing while my stream is running. But while I know this, I just ask random people in irc if they can read my chat, and if they say no, I will just continue to discuss it.
I think MorroW said it already:
and from here rakaka took over and made the story alot more interesting than it actually is haha
The only confirmation we really need is from the owner of this Internet Café, that he knew about this beforehand. Would be nice to hear something official from them.
Still has to be said, just don't discuss anything of any importance while people are watching, it is going to bite you in the ass. But you're still young, so that mistake is understandable 
Half of the accusations in this thread are based on things that never happened or just by interpreting statements in some obscure way.
The other half is the more interesting and justified discussion, how this does reflect upon esports and how this should be seen morally (MorroW now says that they would not have lost on purpose but just awarded the winning points onto the same account, but if they really wanted to do it this way we cannot know, so there is a problem. Still does not change the fact that nothing happened).
I can very much understand this discussion, I was just watching the finals of some big UK lan with Demuslim vs some guy in the grand finals (casted by d.apollo and Rotterdam) and they just played random vs random on a relatively big stage. Now that was just disgusting, as a fan, I simply felt betrayed by that. If MorroW and Sjow planned to fool around like that (which is not unlikely) that is just bad, even if there is no stream. But again, this is just blaming them for stuff that didn't happen and probably wasn't bound to happene, so rather pointless. It's just good to let them know that this would not be appreciated at all.
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On December 23 2010 02:44 Senx wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 02:37 goldfishs wrote:On December 23 2010 01:51 On_Slaught wrote:On December 23 2010 01:41 goldfishs wrote:On December 23 2010 01:34 Tomken wrote:
Still matchfixing. Will people fucking calm down and get a grip. These are small tournaments with shit prices, and some of you is like omg MATCHFIXING BANN BANN BANN! 1. Nobody gives a shit about this tournament, there is absolutely no esteem in winning it. 2. They are not fixing matches unless you're sitting there betting money on them. 3. I do agree that it's bad sportsmanship and whatever, but what they want to do is their business, not yours. Terrible fallacious argument. The size of the tournament has no bearing on whether or not it is ok to do something like this. I'm saying that I'm okey with it because with the system they're having they were pretty much asking for it. So if there's a flaw it must obviously be exploited, right? I mean who gives a shit about competitive spirit, prestige, sponsorship, reputation and fans? Your argument is terrible because it only looks from the selfish perspective of a player.
having to win 11 tournaments is bullshit, and even then the winning is small. it just went up from insignificant.
These players doesn't have the sponsors that korea does. They need to win to get by. If you were to look at tournaments outside starleagues korea, you'd realise that everyone makes deals to share the pot everyone does it super smash, street fighter, counterstrike everyone share's the pot. So to do this in a scrubby local tournament when it's perfectly legit does not bother me one bit. what bothers me is everyone's convinced that planning this was the greatest scandal of 2010. People saying this is a disgrace to gaming doesn't have a clue what they are talking about here. they got some vivid bloody imaginary dreamworld image and that's why they're so offended by this.
Competetive spirit? well they still need to beat every god damn else first and make it to the semi finals.
Prestige? are you trolling, this isn't gsl, that majority of the players signing upp will be gold level.
Sponosorship, what????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
As for the fans and reputation, It's their individual choice what they want to do, If you don't want to be their fans, don't. Their primary goal is to earn money, if you can't understand that then you're stupid, spoiled or still live with your parents
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either way, no matter the outcome, the damage has been done. because of this, sjow and morrow's credibility has decrease even though they weren't cheating
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On December 23 2010 03:00 mango_destroyer wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 02:53 Random() wrote:
I wonder why people had no problems with Koreans throwing matches at WCG to avoid eliminating each other, but suddenly some guys trying to abuse the system in a local tournament should be lynched.
In my opinion it is as much the organizer's fault as it is theirs. There should not be any incentive to throw matches just because of the tournament's format. There is NO incentive to throw matches. The point of this tournament`s format is to reward a player that actually is dominant (11/18). If they believe they can`t do that against each other than they don`t deserve it period. It cheapens the competitive spirit if they try to arrange anything just to get the prize.
First you say there is no incentive to throw the matches.
Then you say that it sucks if they arranged their matches, TO GET THE PRIZE.
There IS an incentive when they can get more stuff by colluding than not doing so.
Saying something else is absurd.
In a normal tournament there are less of such incentives, the reason people do it normally is to profit from external betting, because of the information advantage you get.....
So in conclusion, badly designed rules that give bad incentives.
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On December 23 2010 03:04 Malinor wrote:This whole discussion just blows my mind. Just asking myself what is more plausible: a) I am discussing with my friend how we can win this computer, come up with an solution and asking the admins about it if this is possible within the rules b) I am planning Match fixing while my stream is running. But while I know this, I just ask random people in irc if they can read my chat, and if they say no, I will just continue to discuss it. I think MorroW said it already: Show nested quote +and from here rakaka took over and made the story alot more interesting than it actually is haha The only confirmation we really need is from the owner of this Internet Café, that he knew about this beforehand. Would be nice to hear something official from them. Still has to be said, just don't discuss anything of any importance while people are watching, it is going to bite you in the ass. But you're still young, so that mistake is understandable Half of the accusations in this thread are based on things that never happened or just by interpreting statements in some obscure way. The other half is the more interesting and justified discussion, how this does reflect upon esports and how this should be seen morally (MorroW now says that they would not have lost on purpose but just awarded the winning points onto the same account, but if they really wanted to do it this way we cannot know, so there is a problem. Still does not change the fact that nothing happened). I can very much understand this discussion, I was just watching the finals of some big UK lan with Demuslim vs some guy in the grand finals (casted by d.apollo and Rotterdam) and they just played random vs random on a relatively big stage. Now that was just disgusting, as a fan, I simply felt betrayed by that. If MorroW and Sjow planned to fool around like that (which is not unlikely) that is just bad, even if there is no stream. But again, this is just blaming them for stuff that didn't happen and probably wasn't bound to happene, so rather pointless. It's just good to let them know that this would not be appreciated at all.
The admin has already said that they asked him, and that he would allow it. As they arrived some other admin decided that they would rule against it after all.
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On December 23 2010 03:05 goldfishs wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 02:44 Senx wrote:On December 23 2010 02:37 goldfishs wrote:On December 23 2010 01:51 On_Slaught wrote:On December 23 2010 01:41 goldfishs wrote:On December 23 2010 01:34 Tomken wrote:
Still matchfixing. Will people fucking calm down and get a grip. These are small tournaments with shit prices, and some of you is like omg MATCHFIXING BANN BANN BANN! 1. Nobody gives a shit about this tournament, there is absolutely no esteem in winning it. 2. They are not fixing matches unless you're sitting there betting money on them. 3. I do agree that it's bad sportsmanship and whatever, but what they want to do is their business, not yours. Terrible fallacious argument. The size of the tournament has no bearing on whether or not it is ok to do something like this. I'm saying that I'm okey with it because with the system they're having they were pretty much asking for it. So if there's a flaw it must obviously be exploited, right? I mean who gives a shit about competitive spirit, prestige, sponsorship, reputation and fans? Your argument is terrible because it only looks from the selfish perspective of a player. having to win 11 tournaments is bullshit, and even then the winning is small. it just went up from insignificant. These players doesn't have the sponsors that korea does. They need to win to get by. If you were to look at tournaments outside starleagues korea, you'd realise that everyone makes deals to share the pot everyone does it super smash, street fighter, counterstrike everyone share's the pot. So to do this in a scrubby local tournament when it's perfectly legit does not bother me one bit. what bothers me is everyone's convinced that planning this was the greatest scandal of 2010. People saying this is a disgrace to gaming doesn't have a clue what they are talking about here. they got some vivid bloody imaginary dreamworld image and that's why they're so offended by this. Competetive spirit? well they still need to beat every god damn else first and make it to the semi finals. Prestige? are you trolling, this isn't gsl, that majority of the players signing upp will be gold level. Sponosorship, what???????????????????????????????????????????????????????? As for the fans and reputation, It's their individual choice what they want to do, If you don't want to be their fans, don't. Their primary goal is to earn money, if you can't understand that then you're stupid, spoiled or still live with your parents
It doesn't matter how "bullshit" the tournament is that doesn't give anyone the right to cheat (I'M NOT SAYING THEY WERE CHEATING, I'm just saying your logic is horribly flawed and no, I didn't read anything past that).
IMO, what they are doing is either: 1) very smart or 2) dishonest. This is a discussion of ethics, which has no right answer. Go ahead and argue it for the rest of your life if you want (as many philosophers do).
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On December 23 2010 02:46 Treemonkeys wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 23 2010 02:28 MorroW wrote:
when we saw this event we quickly realized if both if us played it and won half of the tours then we wouldnt get the computer (there are about 16 tours and need 11 tour wins to get the computer). assuming we would win half of these each which would make us 3 steps away from getting it
so we asked maven if it was allowed to play the finals and give the win to the other player even if someone else won. for example if me and sjow met in finals and then we stacked all wins to sjows "thorphy table". he said he was ok and i thought it was ok going to IOL on the bus but when i got there it was not the case. we were not allowed to stack all wins to 1 player
in all honesty im far from a cheater, i have never cheated in my life and im a serious gamer.
i thought i could keep the stream on because its not like were gonna talk anything dirty about cheating. we were just honestly asking the admins of the tournament if it was allowed to give the wins to 1 player if we met in the finals. which was not allowed
and from here rakaka took over and made the story alot more interesting than it actually is haha
if its allowed by the admins to split wins like that then u shouldnt call the gamers cheaters or anything, then you should complaint to the admins and orga for allowing it to happen. me and sjow are good friends and we knew we would be the far superior players at this backdoor neighbour events thats why we wanted to work together so we wouldnt sabotage each other so nobody of us would get the computer, it actually makes alot of sense.
you cant blame players for things they do might be boring or lame, just when i abused reapers in the IEM germany, its imbalanced and i said it myself but you shouldnt call me a lame player for doing it, you should put the blame on the game for being imbalanced. its quite the same concept if u think about it really
me and sjow came to a new conclusion now anyway and we decided only 1 player should stay and play these tournaments and it turns out to be sjow. just to make it extra clear only 1 of us plays this because if both plays it theres a big risk neither of us gets the computer and that would be such a tragedy
lets just cheer for sjow to get the computer asap. if the cs players get 11 wins before sjow does, then they will take both the computers they have on their giveout and once sjow reach 11 wins he wont get any computer. thats why its so important that 1 person wins all tours in a row
many are talking about rigging games as in acting the finals when one player plays on purpose badly so he loses. we were never going to do this ofcourse. we were gonna play finals and have a nice time and let the best player win, and then give the actual prize wins to 1 person.
this is not anything like koreas match making scandal^^
ive been a member of the sc community for a long time and ive been a very mannered and competitive one aswell with high goals in the game.
it would never come to me to cheat in events and thats why i wanted to make sure with the admins it was allowed to pile up all wins on 1 person because personally i thought it sounded silly and didnt believe we would be allowed to do so, which turned out to be true.
just wanna give a big cheers to inferno online they have let me practice there for over a month for free and hosting such awesome events. i wish the guys who participate in it the best of luck and ill leave sjow to this one
i never meant to do anything that i knew was wrong. we were told it was allowed but once i got there it was completely different. all we have done really is just to ask if something was allowed by the admins and they said it was ok and will work something out, and later on changing their mind and then rakaka took it from there The fact is you were looking to match fix to get an easy computer. You were looking for the easiest way to get the prize, by slacking off competition. To make it worse you were doing this on a "small" no name tournament where the two of you could clean house. Yeah financially we know how it makes sense. It's obvious, but don't talk about how you are a serious gamer when you just explained in depth how you were going blow off competition, blow off the game, to get the prize as easy as possible. You aren't a serious gamer, you just want the prize, even if you can get it by not even playing.
Edit: wups, misread and overreacted -_- Sorry!
+ Show Spoiler +Yes, why should we let the accused person speak?
We all should just speculate what happened based on reports from a 3rd party site that wasn't there when it happened and is known for cherry picking quotes and blowing things out of proportion. And then we should all decide on a suitable punishment for what the rumours said he might have done if he wasn't "caught".
Sounds completely reasonable.
/irony
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On December 23 2010 03:08 hifriend wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 03:04 Malinor wrote:This whole discussion just blows my mind. Just asking myself what is more plausible: a) I am discussing with my friend how we can win this computer, come up with an solution and asking the admins about it if this is possible within the rules b) I am planning Match fixing while my stream is running. But while I know this, I just ask random people in irc if they can read my chat, and if they say no, I will just continue to discuss it. I think MorroW said it already: and from here rakaka took over and made the story alot more interesting than it actually is haha The only confirmation we really need is from the owner of this Internet Café, that he knew about this beforehand. Would be nice to hear something official from them. Still has to be said, just don't discuss anything of any importance while people are watching, it is going to bite you in the ass. But you're still young, so that mistake is understandable Half of the accusations in this thread are based on things that never happened or just by interpreting statements in some obscure way. The other half is the more interesting and justified discussion, how this does reflect upon esports and how this should be seen morally (MorroW now says that they would not have lost on purpose but just awarded the winning points onto the same account, but if they really wanted to do it this way we cannot know, so there is a problem. Still does not change the fact that nothing happened). I can very much understand this discussion, I was just watching the finals of some big UK lan with Demuslim vs some guy in the grand finals (casted by d.apollo and Rotterdam) and they just played random vs random on a relatively big stage. Now that was just disgusting, as a fan, I simply felt betrayed by that. If MorroW and Sjow planned to fool around like that (which is not unlikely) that is just bad, even if there is no stream. But again, this is just blaming them for stuff that didn't happen and probably wasn't bound to happene, so rather pointless. It's just good to let them know that this would not be appreciated at all. The admin has already said that they asked him, and that he would allow it. As they arrived some other admin decided that they would rule against it after all.
Oh, is there an official response in this thread by this admin? Because that's what I meant. I must have missed it, but this would remove all remaining doubts (not that I have too many).
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On December 23 2010 03:09 Danjoh wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2010 02:46 Treemonkeys wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On December 23 2010 02:28 MorroW wrote:
when we saw this event we quickly realized if both if us played it and won half of the tours then we wouldnt get the computer (there are about 16 tours and need 11 tour wins to get the computer). assuming we would win half of these each which would make us 3 steps away from getting it
so we asked maven if it was allowed to play the finals and give the win to the other player even if someone else won. for example if me and sjow met in finals and then we stacked all wins to sjows "thorphy table". he said he was ok and i thought it was ok going to IOL on the bus but when i got there it was not the case. we were not allowed to stack all wins to 1 player
in all honesty im far from a cheater, i have never cheated in my life and im a serious gamer.
i thought i could keep the stream on because its not like were gonna talk anything dirty about cheating. we were just honestly asking the admins of the tournament if it was allowed to give the wins to 1 player if we met in the finals. which was not allowed
and from here rakaka took over and made the story alot more interesting than it actually is haha
if its allowed by the admins to split wins like that then u shouldnt call the gamers cheaters or anything, then you should complaint to the admins and orga for allowing it to happen. me and sjow are good friends and we knew we would be the far superior players at this backdoor neighbour events thats why we wanted to work together so we wouldnt sabotage each other so nobody of us would get the computer, it actually makes alot of sense.
you cant blame players for things they do might be boring or lame, just when i abused reapers in the IEM germany, its imbalanced and i said it myself but you shouldnt call me a lame player for doing it, you should put the blame on the game for being imbalanced. its quite the same concept if u think about it really
me and sjow came to a new conclusion now anyway and we decided only 1 player should stay and play these tournaments and it turns out to be sjow. just to make it extra clear only 1 of us plays this because if both plays it theres a big risk neither of us gets the computer and that would be such a tragedy
lets just cheer for sjow to get the computer asap. if the cs players get 11 wins before sjow does, then they will take both the computers they have on their giveout and once sjow reach 11 wins he wont get any computer. thats why its so important that 1 person wins all tours in a row
many are talking about rigging games as in acting the finals when one player plays on purpose badly so he loses. we were never going to do this ofcourse. we were gonna play finals and have a nice time and let the best player win, and then give the actual prize wins to 1 person.
this is not anything like koreas match making scandal^^
ive been a member of the sc community for a long time and ive been a very mannered and competitive one aswell with high goals in the game.
it would never come to me to cheat in events and thats why i wanted to make sure with the admins it was allowed to pile up all wins on 1 person because personally i thought it sounded silly and didnt believe we would be allowed to do so, which turned out to be true.
just wanna give a big cheers to inferno online they have let me practice there for over a month for free and hosting such awesome events. i wish the guys who participate in it the best of luck and ill leave sjow to this one
i never meant to do anything that i knew was wrong. we were told it was allowed but once i got there it was completely different. all we have done really is just to ask if something was allowed by the admins and they said it was ok and will work something out, and later on changing their mind and then rakaka took it from there The fact is you were looking to match fix to get an easy computer. You were looking for the easiest way to get the prize, by slacking off competition. To make it worse you were doing this on a "small" no name tournament where the two of you could clean house. Yeah financially we know how it makes sense. It's obvious, but don't talk about how you are a serious gamer when you just explained in depth how you were going blow off competition, blow off the game, to get the prize as easy as possible. You aren't a serious gamer, you just want the prize, even if you can get it by not even playing. Yes, why should we let the accused person speak? We all should just speculate what happened based on reports from a 3rd party site that wasn't there when it happened and is known for cherry picking quotes and blowing things out of proportion. And then we should all decide on a suitable punishment for what the rumours said he might have done if he wasn't "caught". Sounds completely reasonable. /irony
Is this even a reply to me? I didn't say anything about not letting him speak.
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I feel that many are overreacting to the situation, we can all argue about many things, but the fact is that two friends where only wanting to play the finals and then they wanted to just see themselves as a team, and as a team if someone win the finals the team will get the win instead of them, thus making scoring wins and then winning the prize pool. It is not wrong to ask the admins of a tournament to do these if they both see that if in competing against themselves would just loose them the prize at the end, andmis said no and then everyone hate them for just asking even when only one of them is competing for the prize now.
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On December 23 2010 02:56 Senx wrote:
Why are people arguing that they DIDNT want to fix their matches, it was the exact thing they wanted to do and later got denied from doing it so one of them dropped out.
It sounds, from Morrows explanation, that they didn't want to 'fix' the match, they wanted to 'fix' the reported outcome so that the grand prize was released no matter what.
It is basically like asking the admin - can we get the grand prize no matter what? Can we ignore the rationale behind your prize system which is obviously - give the big prize out to BIG/best player only if there is one - ?
Its a weird system, and I don't think they cheated or wanted to cheat, they just wanted the biggest prize - which, as Morrow explains, does make sense.
Ideally, when hearing about the tourney structure it would be cool if Morrow said to Sjow "guess I'm going to have to wipe the floor with you instead of just spot cleaning it with your feet!' instead of "damn, it's possible we might not get the best prize paid out to either of us. Le'ts ask if we can get around this issue somehow even though it is obvious the reason for the payout structure is to make it harder for an individual to get the best prize for themselves"
Why wouldn't they ask instead for the system to change so that the player who wins the most rounds/matches gets the big prize? This would be the more proper way to ask for the prize payout without touching the ending win/loss representation and its basically the same question "can you change the prize payout so that at least one of us gets it if we are 1st - 2nd?"
Sigh, just a bad way of going about things really.
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EPT
