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A quick note to those of you trying to analyze my behavior:
If you read through the games I've played here (this is the fourth), you will find I have opened each game differently. This is for a few reasons which I might discuss in a general mafia thread, but it is primarily to make me unreadable.
There is no one strategy that 'convinces' people that one is town. If there were, scum would use it and town would be reduced to random voting and this game would be very boring. The best one can do is never be obvious scum. So that's all you're seeing.
On July 01 2010 18:45 Bill Murray wrote:yellowink, take the time away from your empty mafia IRC channel and answer my question 
Yo, obviously (lol) not scum here. Some people need to sleep. And no, I'm not on with the A5J wagon.
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On July 02 2010 01:00 Korynne wrote:+ Show Spoiler [recent big post] +Like honestly BM, if you've read any of my games, you know that other than the game where I was scum in your game (though that doesn't really count because that was f11) I've tried to propose some sort of lengthy strategy at the beginning of the day.
Also I was going to bed, you're way too sensitive to the vote on you and you don't usually seem like the OMGUS kind of person. Like I said, which you have not addressed in any way, you're playing differently this game than all others. You could at least have said, well gee thanks I try to help out for real now and I get voted on for that? You just completely ignored that part of my post. So yeah, heavy FoS on you.
What's wrong with my idea?
If we implement it we can do up to 3 actions a day instead of just 1.
Actions:
#1 Roleblock a mafia, this can block all 3 KP if we hit the mafia. I highly doubt mafia is going to pretend to not kill anyone when a townie gets blocked, they could just kill that townie and 2 others. Even when mafia has 1 KP it's between not killing and letting the one guy (we chose) die, and just killing the person that they feel like is most detrimental to town.
#2 DT check a GF, since that's the only way we can find the GF and a GF to DT trade is like, absolutely worth it especially since we have a system for mafia now.
#3 Lynch an inactive, since we have to lynch everyday, if the roleblock and DT check don't work out then we just lynch an inactive, like we can do today since we haven't started DT checking and roleblocking.
So how do we implement this plan?
#1 Pseudovote in this thread for mafia and GF, like ##mafia: A ##GF: B
#2 At night, roleblocker blocks the person who got the most votes for mafia (even if they don't agree on the person being mafia, and of course they don't have to roleblock themselves, but they can't roleblock anyone else at night if they are the one designated to be roleblocked) and detective checks the person who town voted on as most likely to be GF (with the same clause as above, except if the town voted for the DT then he can check whoever he likes)
#3 In the morning, if the DT found GF, we lynch GF.
If no night kills happened, we lynch the person that was roleblocked.
If neither of those happen, then we lynch an inactive (they don't contribute to us very much, and they're harder to read, and this forces people to talk)
We can also vote for double lynch if there's a lot of people we want to kill (like we got a GF and there was no night kills, vote for double lynch the next day).
This way we get through 3 things a day. Now for everyone who doesn't understand how this is beneficial to us, let me spell it out for you.
Above method: Up to 3 actions a day
Normal method: We have to choose to either lynch someone we think is mafia (to lower their KP), choose to lynch someone we think is GF (to stop the recruiting), and probably have no power to threaten the inactives because we're too busy hunting scum.
Okay peoples? This sounds like a wonderful idea. Knowing that you are very logical, have you carefully read all of my posts?
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Also the only problem I see with this plan (you might see others, please make sure they are valid arguments I'm tired of explaining the idea over and over again) is that we run out of DT or roleblocker.
We have dreamcatchers, which are likely to pick up roles.
I say there's a high chance of success if GF is not good at sniping blues, and I don't think even any of the high level players in this game are blue snipers, except maybe citi.zen? xD But that's a 1/20 chance he's GF? =\
Anyway, I'd say we should probably follow this plan for at least 2 or 3 days. If roleblocker or DT dies CLAIM YOUR ROLE. Of course mafia can do that, but we can probably safely assume there's at least one roleblocker and one detective so we can safely use this method until at least a mafia dies and tries to screw us over. Either way we can still use the other half of the method until someone pops up claiming the other half. Also take things with a grain of salt. For example, it's much more credible if someone claims DT when they are night killed than when we lynch them. If it's when we're about to lynch them then they should obviously claim before they get lynched and we can deal with it from there. If there's enough confusion or we really need to know if RB/DT died then we juse use a coroner.
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On July 02 2010 01:02 youngminii wrote:
So if a DT checks someone that gets recruited on the same night, it's pretty much a wasted check?
:O
No, it tells you their role, not their alignment. The only reason to use DT checks is to find GF. So no, DT checks are not wasted.
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On July 02 2010 01:10 YellowInk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 01:00 Korynne wrote:+ Show Spoiler [recent big post] +Like honestly BM, if you've read any of my games, you know that other than the game where I was scum in your game (though that doesn't really count because that was f11) I've tried to propose some sort of lengthy strategy at the beginning of the day.
Also I was going to bed, you're way too sensitive to the vote on you and you don't usually seem like the OMGUS kind of person. Like I said, which you have not addressed in any way, you're playing differently this game than all others. You could at least have said, well gee thanks I try to help out for real now and I get voted on for that? You just completely ignored that part of my post. So yeah, heavy FoS on you.
What's wrong with my idea?
If we implement it we can do up to 3 actions a day instead of just 1.
Actions:
#1 Roleblock a mafia, this can block all 3 KP if we hit the mafia. I highly doubt mafia is going to pretend to not kill anyone when a townie gets blocked, they could just kill that townie and 2 others. Even when mafia has 1 KP it's between not killing and letting the one guy (we chose) die, and just killing the person that they feel like is most detrimental to town.
#2 DT check a GF, since that's the only way we can find the GF and a GF to DT trade is like, absolutely worth it especially since we have a system for mafia now.
#3 Lynch an inactive, since we have to lynch everyday, if the roleblock and DT check don't work out then we just lynch an inactive, like we can do today since we haven't started DT checking and roleblocking.
So how do we implement this plan?
#1 Pseudovote in this thread for mafia and GF, like ##mafia: A ##GF: B
#2 At night, roleblocker blocks the person who got the most votes for mafia (even if they don't agree on the person being mafia, and of course they don't have to roleblock themselves, but they can't roleblock anyone else at night if they are the one designated to be roleblocked) and detective checks the person who town voted on as most likely to be GF (with the same clause as above, except if the town voted for the DT then he can check whoever he likes)
#3 In the morning, if the DT found GF, we lynch GF.
If no night kills happened, we lynch the person that was roleblocked.
If neither of those happen, then we lynch an inactive (they don't contribute to us very much, and they're harder to read, and this forces people to talk)
We can also vote for double lynch if there's a lot of people we want to kill (like we got a GF and there was no night kills, vote for double lynch the next day).
This way we get through 3 things a day. Now for everyone who doesn't understand how this is beneficial to us, let me spell it out for you.
Above method: Up to 3 actions a day
Normal method: We have to choose to either lynch someone we think is mafia (to lower their KP), choose to lynch someone we think is GF (to stop the recruiting), and probably have no power to threaten the inactives because we're too busy hunting scum.
Okay peoples? This sounds like a wonderful idea. Knowing that you are very logical, have you carefully read all of my posts?
Give me a second to go through all the stuff I wanted to, and then I will go through all of your posts if that's what you'd like me to do.
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On July 02 2010 01:02 youngminii wrote:
So if a DT checks someone that gets recruited on the same night, it's pretty much a wasted check?
:O
Detective
You have the ability to make night investigations. Once per night, starting on Night 2, you may ask for the role of any player. I will PM you the results at the end of the night (the results will reflect that night’s recruitment).
No, the DT will see mafia so it's not wasted.
I don't agree with your plan Korynne, but only on the DT check. I think we have more than one DT and if they both check the guy we've voted for, we lose in efficiency.
The godfather will try to blend in the town so if he is a good player it's gonna be quite hard to find him on scumtells.
That is why I want to defend a DT check plan like the one I proposed earlier. It seems random, but it maximises the efficiency of our DTs.
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On July 02 2010 01:15 Korynne wrote:
Give me a second to go through all the stuff I wanted to, and then I will go through all of your posts if that's what you'd like me to do. I ask because I countered your plan a while ago. I am surprised you're still pressing it.
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Bill you're laughable at your accusation of me. I'm acting funny and that's in line with my scum meta? The only game I was scum was your game, where it was f11 so there was no reason to make any let's break the game plans. And I'm pretty sure everyone in that game thought I was acting just fine and normal.
The game I acted "funny" in might be the PYP where Foolishness (mafia) kept accusing me of being scum because of one thing I repeatedly say (well you can lynch me to find out since I'm vanilla and then you'll know for sure if Foolishness stole Comp Vig) that he's like omg that's so typical scum. And I was townie that game.
So like, worst argument ever. -.-
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Well I've read some of it YInk and I don't think I saw anything breaking my plan. But just give me a couple secs to get through everything else I wanted to.
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On July 02 2010 01:15 ElyAs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 01:02 youngminii wrote:
So if a DT checks someone that gets recruited on the same night, it's pretty much a wasted check?
:O Show nested quote +
Detective
You have the ability to make night investigations. Once per night, starting on Night 2, you may ask for the role of any player. I will PM you the results at the end of the night (the results will reflect that night’s recruitment).
No, the DT will see mafia so it's not wasted. I don't agree with your plan Korynne, but only on the DT check. I think we have more than one DT and if they both check the guy we've voted for, we lose in efficiency. The godfather will try to blend in the town so if he is a good player it's gonna be quite hard to find him on scumtells. That is why I want to defend a DT check plan like the one I proposed earlier. It seems random, but it maximises the efficiency of our DTs.
You bring up a valid point. I think if a dream catcher gets DT, he should check whomever he wants until the first DT dies. Same with dream catcher getting jailkeeper. But I think he shouldn't roleblock randomly because that screws up the lynch thing.
I don't think we'll get two DTs from the start... The thing is, we want to be able to know for sure if someone isn't GF, so we move on to lesser suspects. So I think that might be more important than making sure DTs don't overlap. Otherwise we might have suspected the GF, our new system would not have the DT checking that guy, and then we'd move on with our lives as if that guy was checked and not the GF.
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On July 02 2010 01:18 Korynne wrote:
Well I've read some of it YInk and I don't think I saw anything breaking my plan. But just give me a couple secs to get through everything else I wanted to. I'm headed out in a minute for a couple hours. Give it some thought and reply.
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Also I think if my plan is implemented the Mad Hatter should only place bombs on people we check at night. So like we can lynch a mad hatter during the day as a pseudo double lynch. So basically place one bomb on someone you feel is suspicious, and then place the other bomb on whoever is getting checked at night.
The problem with Mad Hatter is that it can screw up our plan if the Mad Hatter gets a terrible read and just bombs away our DT/RB/etc. So I don't really like the idea of using them very much.
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Also like, we can implement BB's modification to my plan if we think it's more important to stop mafia KP than to keep hunting scum. (If we don't really have any suspects for people who could be mafia, but we didn't have night kills the night before)
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On July 01 2010 03:35 YellowInk wrote:
Has anyone noticed how much information Korynne has been providing us?
Oh yeah, you should explain this post btw. I forgot about it. xD
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Dear God, thread explosion. So much for quickly dropping in idea.
First, I am Hesmyrr. I think [player] is [good/middle/bad] (pick 1)-skilled, and believe mafia is likely to recruit [good/middle/bad] (pick 1)-skilled player! ...-_- I would be pleasantly annoyed to see player vote someone due to this reasoning. It's mindless WIFOM and essentially null-read that should never be used to lynch someone; especially when there is more concrete materials to work around with now, with most player having made their stances and endorsements.
Now Double Lynch (proposed by BM). This is bad idea, and many people already spoke up why, but let me summarize the main points: 1) There are only two double lynch available in this game and should be saved until seriously needed, 2) Using double lynch at d1, when there are lack of information, only increases chance of bandwagoning scum slightly but greatly increase the chance of bandwagoning PR (since there are more of them) which is exactly what we do not want. I am curious to know the Bill Murray's reasoning behind his support- it is in responsibility of the plan proposer to explain why that plan is good idea, you know.
Mass Roleclaim. I am not even discussing this shit.
Roleblock instead of Lynch (proposed by Korynne). For some reason I really don't like this idea, and I wish I could point out in detail why had I enough time. I'll try to give detailed argument against this plan when I have enough time tomorrow, and either way it wouldn't even matter because I think the town is pretty much forced to lynch every day til Godfather is confirmed dead.
Please remember we are fighting CULT (with NK powers), not Mafia? Lynching normal Mafia goon does not result in net gain for us, it just results in stalemate as mafia recruit another member immediately following night. Especially with INCREASING KP, the town effort should be focused on getting Godfather than scum especially now when we have the same probability of finding them anyway.
Voting BrowneY as placeholder, probably subject to change but I would appreciate it if more people (zeks, Divinek etc.) spoke up.
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Actually reconsidering the town's urgent need to hit Godfather asap double lynch in retrospect isn't that bad a idea, but I would still rather have PR use their round of investigations once before increasing their chance of exposure. So maybe day 2.
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On July 02 2010 01:28 Hesmyrr wrote:Dear God, thread explosion. So much for quickly dropping in idea. First, I am Hesmyrr. I think [player] is [good/middle/bad] (pick 1)-skilled, and believe mafia is likely to recruit [good/middle/bad] (pick 1)-skilled player! ...-_- I would be pleasantly annoyed to see player vote someone due to this reasoning. It's mindless WIFOM and essentially null-read that should never be used to lynch someone; especially when there is more concrete materials to work around with now, with most player having made their stances and endorsements. Now Double Lynch (proposed by BM). This is bad idea, and many people already spoke up why, but let me summarize the main points: 1) There are only two double lynch available in this game and should be saved until seriously needed, 2) Using double lynch at d1, when there are lack of information, only increases chance of bandwagoning scum slightly but greatly increase the chance of bandwagoning PR (since there are more of them) which is exactly what we do not want. I am curious to know the Bill Murray's reasoning behind his support- it is in responsibility of the plan proposer to explain why that plan is good idea, you know. Mason Roleclaim (proposed by L and Chezinu). I am not even discussing this shit. Roleblock instead of Lynch (proposed by Korynne). For some reason I really don't like this idea, and I wish I could point out in detail why had I enough time. I'll try to give detailed argument against this plan when I have enough time tomorrow, and either way it wouldn't even matter because I think the town is pretty much forced to lynch every day til Godfather is confirmed dead. Please remember we are fighting CULT (with NK powers), not Mafia? Lynching normal Mafia goon does not result in net gain for us, it just results in stalemate as mafia recruit another member immediately following night. Especially with INCREASING KP, the town effort should be focused on getting Godfather than scum especially now when we have the same probability of finding them anyway. Voting BrowneY as placeholder, probably subject to change but I would appreciate it if more people (zeks, Divinek etc.) spoke up.
fixed
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On July 02 2010 01:02 youngminii wrote:
So if a DT checks someone that gets recruited on the same night, it's pretty much a wasted check?
:O
The DT will get the result... what he does with it is up to him.
Also, BrowneY doesn't actually have access to the forum currently... xD. Be patient with him. I'll see if anything he wants me to post for him.
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Also YInk, you mentioned the whole we need to force everyone to be active thing. With us trying to kill both GF and mafia, there's like no way, other than first day, where we can lynch inactives. And we all know the inactives are actually more likely to be bored townies than mafia, so my plan takes care of both threatening and lynching inactives while hunting scum and GF.
@your first mention of RB: I don't think we should rely on the idea that top players are somehow that much better than the rest. I personally feel that I'm good because I make logical plans in thread, not because I'm good at analyzing people and finding scum or nething like that. L is probably better at the whole behavioural analysis and fingerpointing at scum stuff. I don't know much about citi.zen other than the fact he seems like a solid player. Not sure about you either YInk, you can put yourself in a "category" if you'd like. I think my plan is a lot more useful than just blocking top players and making GF think twice about recruiting top players.
@the next one. I think it's more important to catch mafia/stop mafia KP than it is to confirm "top" players. I mean why don't we just DT check the top players from top down in a normal game? At least that way they stay the same alignment throughout the game right? But we don't do that. We don't say, yo DT, check the 3 people you think play best and then report to us that they're clean and then if you die we know we have high level confirmed players. So I don't think it's any valid to do that in this game, especially because GF can recruit them later.
First, there probably isn't 2 roleblockers. You even mentioned in the beginning that RBs are really powerful in this game. Second of all, this way we can make sure if someone isn't mafia at that point in time. If we just let roleblockers block whoever then it's like DT checks in the past. Roleblocker has to decide whether to out themselves and whoever they found was mafia, or to sit around with information and hope they don't die with it (what are the chances we really trust a backwards claim without using a coroner check?).
"Second, pseudovotes would allow the mafia to directly manipulate who is getting 'outted' by the roleblocks." <--- I don't get it. If mafia is manipulating votes, then we can see it through voting. If you mean they can choose to not nightkill, the other option would've been that we lynched the guy during the day. That's what people are not grasping. Let me repeat it again.
Either we lynch someone, A, who seems like mafia during the day. -OR-
We roleblock him at night and don't kill him during the day, which means that mafia can choose to either a) sacrifice their KP to get him lynched, which would mean they didn't use their nightkill which is good for town, or b) they confirm him for the night by using their night kills. In the second case, we shouldn't have lynched A in the first place. Whereas if they pretend A is mafia and we lynch him, then like, that's no different then us not lynching anyone during the day and mafia killing A at night.
"Further, if we were comitting to lynch (or even just continuously roleblock) people who came up scum by this test, every time a medic successfully blocked or a vet took a hit, we could be lynching (or roleblocking) an innocent." <-- Well we were gunna lynch the guy to begin with. So we're just adding in the chance that we can keep an innocent around.
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On July 02 2010 01:32 Chezinu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 02 2010 01:28 Hesmyrr wrote:
Mason Roleclaim (proposed by L and Chezinu). I am not even discussing this shit.
fixed
Wait, you specifically said you did NOT ask for a mass role-claim:
On July 01 2010 13:17 Chezinu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 01 2010 13:12 YellowInk wrote:
A few quick points I want to stick into this flurry.
Mass roleclaim is bad. Bad Chez Bad. Hang the Chez for even suggesting. Cahoots!
Stalemates are not good for town. They're not terrible, either, IF the godfather is dead, but since as a non-roleblocking townie it's hard for one to be sure if we're actually in a stalemate or perhaps had a lucky medic/vet in between two role blocks.
Double lynches should be used in the mid to late game, not in the early game. It's a town empowering ability. Right now we'd be shooting blanks. Later we'll need them to clean up the scum.
If I were the godfather, I would have recruited a top player. Remember that we're going to have a very difficult time lynching any of the skilled players to begin with. While the numbers are thin, they're going to play no differently from any other townie. It doesn't matter that we know who the skilled players are, I am not about to bet the game on lynching L or Korynne or BM tonight. If we were to start lynching these players, the godfather would then switch to going after middling players, so there's not much advantaged to be gained by making a plan to lynch top players.
Ok, so that last point wasn't so quick.
Recruiting games are tough. You can't trust anyone - unfortunately especially those who get named as 'strong'. I never said to mass roleclaim..
I did not see L suggest it either.
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EPT
