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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
crate nailed it pretty much.
Raising execution (technical skill) requirements does NOT make a game deeper, or give it more mind-games.
How does having to press L every time you land in Melee make it deeper? Or having wavedashes that are so difficult to execute? You could just auto-L-cancel and have 1-button wavedashes and the game would keep the same depth and mind-games.
Moreover, these skills mean that players who haven't invested a LOT of time into the game will have FEWER mind games available and for them, the game will have LESS depth.
Execution skills are definitely part of the fun of fighting games, no doubt. And like I said before, having a high ceiling for them is a good thing, imo.
The question is how important they should be. I'm sure they are very important to some people. But to myself and many others, they should be much less important than the mental aspects. It's all a matter of opinion, really.
Nevertheless, I think Guilty Gear is an example of a game that can appeal to both kinds of people. On one hand, you've got a lot of characters that are very time-intensive to learn: very precise timings, character-specific combos, and so on. But even if you're mediocre at those things, you can just pick Potemkin and play at a high level regardless.
Another example is Arcana Heart. Most of the characters in this game have a variety of increasingly-difficult combos. Generally, the combos go something like:
- dead-easy 1-2-3-super combo: ~7000 dmg
- simple combo with fairly lax timing: ~9,000 dmg
- more difficult combo: ~10,000 dmg
- advanced combo with precise timing and situation/character specific: ~11,000 dmg
Not to mention the variance between characters, where ones easy combo is as strong as anothers advanced one. So even if you suck at execution, you can beat people who make combo videos if your other skills and game knowledge are superior.
IMO, games like these appeal to both kinds of players: those who don't like execution-heavy games, and those who do.  Melee, unfortunately, only appeals to the latter.
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On May 31 2009 05:19 Bill307 wrote:
Nevertheless, I think Guilty Gear is an example of a game that can appeal to both kinds of people. On one hand, you've got a lot of characters that are very time-intensive to learn: very precise timings, character-specific combos, and so on. But even if you're mediocre at those things, you can just pick Potemkin and play at a high level regardless.
Fuck Potemkin yo. :3
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yeah i had always said l-cancelling should be automated. it's more like a minimum requirement, rather than anything much affecting high level play. it's something you screw up when you get nervous though :/
and wavedashes are pretty easy to execute, and again they really don't add much more to your movement for most of the characters. it's fine the way it is.
di is the worst tech skill, because of how unintuitive it is. you're basically pulling the velocity vector in a direction. you should...probably just push the control stick in the direction you most want to go.
melee's real technical depth is the amount of freestyled, precise inputs you have to do in an extremely short amount of time, and the insanely small reaction time window you have.
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
And then you have Sakurai who apparently wants a mythical game where differentiation by skill doesn't exist.
Which is pointless 'cause casual players can always find other casual players who want to play for fun without competing or playing to win. People could do this just fine in Melee, for instance.
Not to mention the impossibility of his task, unless he wants to make a game suitable for 8-and-younger, 'cause no one older than 8 will want to play it.
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On May 31 2009 05:41 traced wrote:
and wavedashes are pretty easy to execute
No, WTF?
On May 31 2009 05:41 traced wrote:
and the insanely small reaction time window you have.
Funny, I always thought that was called "reaction time", not technical skill.
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On May 31 2009 05:19 Bill307 wrote:crate nailed it pretty much. Raising execution (technical skill) requirements does NOT make a game deeper, or give it more mind-games. How does having to press L every time you land in Melee make it deeper? Or having wavedashes that are so difficult to execute? You could just auto-L-cancel and have 1-button wavedashes and the game would keep the same depth and mind-games. Moreover, these skills mean that players who haven't invested a LOT of time into the game will have FEWER mind games available and for them, the game will have LESS depth. Execution skills are definitely part of the fun of fighting games, no doubt. And like I said before, having a high ceiling for them is a good thing, imo. The question is how important they should be. I'm sure they are very important to some people. But to myself and many others, they should be much less important than the mental aspects. It's all a matter of opinion, really. Nevertheless, I think Guilty Gear is an example of a game that can appeal to both kinds of people. On one hand, you've got a lot of characters that are very time-intensive to learn: very precise timings, character-specific combos, and so on. But even if you're mediocre at those things, you can just pick Potemkin and play at a high level regardless. Another example is Arcana Heart. Most of the characters in this game have a variety of increasingly-difficult combos. Generally, the combos go something like: - dead-easy 1-2-3-super combo: ~7000 dmg - simple combo with fairly lax timing: ~9,000 dmg - more difficult combo: ~10,000 dmg - advanced combo with precise timing and situation/character specific: ~11,000 dmg Not to mention the variance between characters, where ones easy combo is as strong as anothers advanced one. So even if you suck at execution, you can beat people who make combo videos if your other skills and game knowledge are superior. IMO, games like these appeal to both kinds of players: those who don't like execution-heavy games, and those who do. Melee, unfortunately, only appeals to the latter.
Bullshit, when you have strong characters like SHIEK, PEACH, GANON AND JIGGLYPUFF. Who don't require such super technical execution. Hell you dont even need super tech skill to play fox at a high level.
Press L to cancel lag isnt difficult at all, and wavedashing still isnt even a neccesary staple for certain characters, and yet still its not that difficult to learn these days when someone knows how to play. And in melee if you have greater knowledge and general smarts/experience you will more than likely beat the less experienced player who only has tech skill, its been that way since the beginning. For proof go find some old videos of Wife playing a character that isn't peach, he has (or had atleast) very low technical ability, but played a character that had easy "combos" and relied on his decision maker to become a dominant player at the time.
But anyway brawl sucks badly. Really it does.
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On May 31 2009 03:03 crate wrote:Show nested quote +More important, techskill gives more options which ultimately increase the depth of the game. Not at all. Some things need to be technically challenging to give the player options (e.g. wavedashing letting you vary the timing and direction of the airdodge), but you are asserting the relationship is the other way around, which is false. If L-canceling instead involved hitting up+L+Z+Y in a certain order within 4 frames, would it make the game deeper? I very much don't think so ... but it would undoubtedly make the game more technical. The player doesn't get any more options from having that higher technical requirement. If anything I think it would be the opposite (not to mention the number of players who would be pushed toward characters like Sheik and Peach who don't benefit as much from L-canceling, and pushed away from the spacies) in this case. (As an aside I think having to press L every time you land during an aerial makes Melee worse than it would otherwise be. The only depth I see coming from L-canceling is the possibility of attempting to mess up your opponent's L-cancel timing (light shielding + shield tilting, mainly), but that's such a small addition that I think the lower techskill requirement would make up for it). Show nested quote +In that case, you should stick to RPGs where the fights only involves strategy and no techs what so ever Right ... because PvAI is so much fun.... There was a very easy type of game (TBS) for you to compare it to. But then you miss the real-time aspect of fighting games, so the comparison still fails. When I say I don't like techskill, I mean I think executing any individual maneuver should be very easy. Timing them properly, linking them together properly, proper spacing/zoning (whatever you want to call it), reading your opponent.... There's more than just pressing 5 directions then a button to fighting games, and I like every single other bit of it more than the "press 5 directions then a button" part. I didn't expect people to agree with me. No one ever does. (aside 2: "techskill" is probably too broad a term for me to be using here, but I'm not sure there is a more precise one around for me to use)
First off, you stated that: “So I don't really feel like more techskill = higher skill ceiling in fighting games” To use you own example, if L-canceling would involve hitting up+L+Z+Y it would make it harder to perform, and less people would be able to do it. The harder it is to master techskill the higher the skill ceiling gets. If you could perform infinite combos with by just pressing on button once, there would be no room for improvement and the skill ceiling would be very low. Sure, tactics and such could still be improved but the game would still be easier in some aspects (techskill in this case) so the skill ceiling would therefore be lower overall.
Moving over to the depth-discussion. I get your point, the fact that something is hard to perform does not make the game deeper. That is true, as long as the tech is available to the player it doesn’t matter how hard it is to perform it. However, this has nothing to do with what I said. I said that the techskill in Melee gives the player more options. Wavedashing, dashdancing, crouch cancelling, dash cancelling, techs (as in instant recovery, not “tech” for techniques) moonwalking, pivot etc. are all techs that give the player more options. (Yes, there are some techs like L-canceling that doesn’t provide depth but most of them do.) Just because they could be easier to perform doesn’t mean that they are not providing options. Some of them actually can’t be easier to perform without making other techs much harder (DI vs combos, recovery vs edge guard etc.)
Ok, RPG might have been a bad comparison, I should have said action RPG/MMORPG. I think you get my point tho. EDIT. Sorry if I sound like a douche when saying that, but my point is that its only your subjective view that wavedash etc. are hard to perform. I really doesnt take you more than two weeks to learn it. I cant see how you would want to remove all execution skill in a fighting game because then it wouldnt be a figting game. Thats why I mentioned that other types of games would be more suitable for you.
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The fast pace of melee and the high technical skill ceiling was what made it a great competative game. A player with strong technical skills can often beat a player who isn't very technical, but at the highest level of play when people have perfected the technical part mind games are crucial. In this way starcraft and melee are very similar to each other. Also when you play more and more you get faster and thru this practice you learn mind games.
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On May 31 2009 05:57 mog87 wrote:
Press L to cancel lag isnt difficult at all
Way to miss the point of complaining about L-cancelling.
The problem is not that it's "difficult". The problem is that it's stupid and should be unnecessary.
Honestly, is there anyone who would have less fun if L-cancelling were automatic? I don't think anyone plays Melee for the joy of pressing L after every time they jump.
Wavedashing is different. Having it in the game is good. Making it require an unnecessary and difficult sequence of button-presses -- especially if you use it frequently -- is bad.
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On May 31 2009 08:12 Bill307 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2009 05:57 mog87 wrote:
Press L to cancel lag isnt difficult at all Wavedashing is different. Having it in the game is good. Making it require an unnecessary and difficult sequence of button-presses -- especially if you use it frequently -- is bad.
Remember that the developers didn't intend to have the wavedash in the game. They found it just before it was released and decided to keep it in the game, probably not realizing how big of a deal it was (and who can blame them). I agree that the wavedash could be simplified but once you learn it, it becomes very natural and you don't think about it much
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On May 31 2009 05:41 traced wrote:
di is the worst tech skill, because of how unintuitive it is. you're basically pulling the velocity vector in a direction. you should...probably just push the control stick in the direction you most want to go.
DI is the most important skill to master, and the hardest to perfect. It's not only used to survive kill moves, it's also important for evading combos, screwing with the opponents head with real sketchy knockback (DI jabs behind the oppponent, for example), and aiming for parts of the stage to tech off of. There's also the concept of Smash DI.
I don't understand what you mean by how unintuitive it is. The best survival DI is (for the most part) pushing the joystick perpendicular to what you expect your knockback to be. If you're going to die upwards, push to the side. If you're going to die to the side, push upwards and towards the opponent. It's a really unique concept, but it's not that tough to pick up.
If you're actually suggesting that you can determine your trajectory on attacks based on the direction you're holding, wouldn't that be a bit silly? You would hold down so you never get off the stage. Without DI...well, look at SSB64 combo videos >_>
EDIT: Can we change the title of this thread, or make a new one? It seems to be a lot about debating over Brawl and Melee rather than Brawl+.
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fyi
I play Sheik in Melee. I played Peach before that (until I realized that Sheik is so much better and easier).
I play these characters precisely because I need minimal techskill to do so. Actually I switched off of Peach because I wasn't able to do stuff that I wanted to do to get better (instant float to nair, for example).
I never said that I think wavedashing and l-canceling are particularly hard; they're not. I recognize it's quite possible to be fairly good at Melee with minimal techskill--my techskill sucks balls but I'm not terrible.
I don't think Melee is necessarily a very technical game since I honestly don't know much about other fighters. I do think it's more technical than I would like it to be, and I say so.
and wavedashes are pretty easy to execute, and again they really don't add much more to your movement for most of the characters. it's fine the way it is.
Wavedashing exactly the distance you want to go every time is very hard lol. However in this case it's not something that should be automated (though having a "wavedash button" then having you hold the appropriate direction seems fine to me). Basically, if there is something that you want to do in every possible situation it should just be automatic imo. I don't like unnecessary techskill.
The harder it is to master techskill the higher the skill ceiling gets.
I think this is a case of us just debating semantics.... I consider the "skill ceiling" only applying to what I think the game should test.
Better phrasing for what I mean: I don't feel like it [L-canceling and other unnecessarily hard-to-perform actions] makes the game better, and I don't feel like being good at it rewards what the game should reward, so it's bad. You think it does reward what the game should reward so it's ok (at least that's how I read your posts. I might be wrong).
I said that the techskill in Melee gives the player more options. Wavedashing, dashdancing, crouch cancelling, dash cancelling, techs (as in instant recovery, not “tech” for techniques) moonwalking, pivot etc. are all techs that give the player more options.
And this is a case of depth necessitating techskill. I'm fine with that. I even said as much earlier. I think each individual maneuver should be as easy to perform as possible however, and it's clear that in some games (not so much Melee or Brawl, but if you look at some other games ... I think stuff like half-circle movements are a bit extreme) this isn't the case. In Melee the obvious examples are forcing multiple button presses to wavedash from the ground (somewhat understandable because having a "wavedash button" wouldn't help you in the air at all) and L-canceling.
Bill sees this exactly the same way I do, I think.
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On May 31 2009 08:12 Bill307 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2009 05:57 mog87 wrote:
Press L to cancel lag isnt difficult at all Way to miss the point of complaining about L-cancelling. The problem is not that it's "difficult". The problem is that it's stupid and should be unnecessary. Honestly, is there anyone who would have less fun if L-cancelling were automatic? I don't think anyone plays Melee for the joy of pressing L after every time they jump. Wavedashing is different. Having it in the game is good. Making it require an unnecessary and difficult sequence of button-presses -- especially if you use it frequently -- is bad.
I understood your point, but I was just saying that the frame window to L cancel correctly is so large that it isnt really an issue in your argument about melee being so tech heavy. I mean sure I guess Id would be nice, if you didnt have to, but I disagree with it being stupid and unneccesary. Wavedashing isnt simple as you probably know because it wasn't directly intended to be put in the game, so really thats something no one can do anything about,
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On May 31 2009 08:12 Bill307 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 31 2009 05:57 mog87 wrote:
Press L to cancel lag isnt difficult at all Way to miss the point of complaining about L-cancelling. The problem is not that it's "difficult". The problem is that it's stupid and should be unnecessary. Honestly, is there anyone who would have less fun if L-cancelling were automatic? I don't think anyone plays Melee for the joy of pressing L after every time they jump. Wavedashing is different. Having it in the game is good. Making it require an unnecessary and difficult sequence of button-presses -- especially if you use it frequently -- is bad.
Bill, wavedashing is pretty easy... I never played melee seriously anywhere near a tournament level (and I'm glad about it actually), I never even owned the game, I didn't spend more than an hour in training mode practicing it and I could do it pretty consistently after that. I had more trouble learning to do a Shoryu FADC in street fighter 4 or nearly any character's bread and butter combos in a real fighting game.
Execution in games is NOT a bad thing for the following reason: many strategies revolve around doing things faster than your opponent can execute... to do difficult things you have to be ready to do the input (ex standing 360 on super turbo). Even Daigo can't shoryu every jump in. I don't have much knowledge of high level smash play, but I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing were true.
And again, I don't know about smash and L-Cancelling, but in Starcraft (and Street Fighter) I have a lot of fun because of the mechanical difficulty of the game. Not even the actual game, just the fact that I have to do all these different things and etc.
I really think the anti-execution viewpoint is kind of silly.
edit: I'm not really defending smash, so much as I'm defending execution. You're disliking smash for the wrong reasons.
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I really think the anti-execution viewpoint is kind of silly
And I think the pro-execution viewpoint is kind of silly.
There is no obvious answer to who is right, because it just depends on what you think the game should test.
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On June 01 2009 00:45 anotak wrote:
Bill, wavedashing is pretty easy... I never played melee seriously anywhere near a tournament level (and I'm glad about it actually), I never even owned the game, I didn't spend more than an hour in training mode practicing it and I could do it pretty consistently after that. I had more trouble learning to do a Shoryu FADC in street fighter 4 or nearly any character's bread and butter combos in a real fighting game.
You think I haven't tried wavedashing before?
I tried it with Marth and it took me maybe an hour to get it to happen even once. I can't see myself using it in a serious match without a LOT more practice to make it very consistent.
I also learned that the timing is different for every character, which is yet another dumb obstacle.
But even if I found it easy, it's pretty obvious that it's not easy for everybody.
And about the comparison to SF4: what good is it to compare Melee to another game with difficult execution? 
Execution in games is NOT a bad thing for the following reason: many strategies revolve around doing things faster than your opponent can execute... to do difficult things you have to be ready to do the input (ex standing 360 on super turbo). Even Daigo can't shoryu every jump in. I don't have much knowledge of high level smash play, but I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing were true.
And again, I don't know about smash and L-Cancelling, but in Starcraft (and Street Fighter) I have a lot of fun because of the mechanical difficulty of the game. Not even the actual game, just the fact that I have to do all these different things and etc.
I've written pretty much exactly the same thing you did about the necessity of motions like dragon-punches and QCFx2 in other 2D fighters. (1-button 720s would be lolz.) And there is no comparison to what we are discussing here in Smash.
I really think the anti-execution viewpoint is kind of silly.
I'm not anti-execution.
I'm specifically opposed to two things:
1. Pointless execution like L-cancelling and wavedashing, which might as well be automatic and easy, respectively.
2. The fact that high-level exection is too rewarding: having better and better execution should lead to dimishing returns. I've already posted why and I'm not going to post it again for people who overlooked it earlier. So if you disagree with me on this, then go find my reasons and quote them instead of quoting this post.
edit: I'm not really defending smash, so much as I'm defending execution. You're disliking smash for the wrong reasons.
How am I disliking Smash for the wrong reasons? I dislike having to invest a lot of time into execution in order to compete. Maybe I could play as Sheik, but what if I don't really like using that character?
But it doesn't matter whether or not *I* like it. I could dislike it for some obscure reason, in which case there'd be no point in me posting about it. The reason I'm posting about it is because I think there's a large body of fighting game players, even competitive ones, who are pushed away from Melee because of its execution requirements.
For me, this discussion isn't about changing Melee or making it better. Ultimately, this is about the design of fighting games in general. As someone who might be designing games professionally one day, discussing game design serves a purpose to me.
No one is going to convince me to play Melee heavily: I have a number of gripes about the game, from the execution we've discussed, to the slippery-slope effect of taking damage. (One thing I like about other 2D fighters compared to StarCraft is that as I'm losing, my ability to make a comeback does not diminish, whereas in StarCraft a comeback becomes a LOT harder the worse off your situation gets. Now Smash doesn't suffer from this effect nearly as badly as StarCraft does, but it's there and it's noticeable.) It's not any more balanced than many other 2D fighters, either. So if you're debating with me to make me want to play it, you're probably wasting your time.
But if you want to change my opinions on what makes good fighting game design, or good game design in general, or when tough execution is good or bad, then you may succeed.
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L-cancelling is hardly something that should be complained about... They should be second nature to anybody who's tried to play the game well. It just gives you a small edge if you can time it right... and I think that's great. Making it automatic is exactly like adding automine to sc 1. Sure, it'd be beneficial for noobs, but for people who've practiced mastering the finer aspects of the game already have it 100% down.
I'd rather it just not be in the game than having it be automatic.
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On June 01 2009 05:44 Bill307 wrote:And about the comparison to SF4: what good is it to compare Melee to another game with difficult execution?
Did you really just call SF4 a game with difficult execution...
???
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On June 01 2009 06:36 anotak wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2009 05:44 Bill307 wrote:And about the comparison to SF4: what good is it to compare Melee to another game with difficult execution? Did you really just call SF4 a game with difficult execution... ???
My bad, one frame links are easy, sorry.
Or if you're referring to shoryu FADC ultra, if you think that's easy then you've been playing fighting games for too long.
I find it pretty easy myself, but I know that it's not easy when you try to look at it objectively.
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Bill307
Canada9103 Posts
On June 01 2009 06:16 Meta wrote:
L-cancelling is hardly something that should be complained about... They should be second nature to anybody who's tried to play the game well. It just gives you a small edge if you can time it right... and I think that's great. Making it automatic is exactly like adding automine to sc 1. Sure, it'd be beneficial for noobs, but for people who've practiced mastering the finer aspects of the game already have it 100% down.
I'd rather it just not be in the game than having it be automatic.
Not that I'm against automine, but how is L-cancelling anything like automining? Not having automining not only increases the demand for multitasking skill, it also puts pressure on how much you can accomplish in a given time. Removing it doesn't just lower the multitasking skill requirement: it frees up time as well.
L-cancelling gives you a small edge? For many air moves (e.g. Links' dair), missing an L-cancel is a free hit for your opponent.
Why do you want to throw down a wall between people who can L-cancel and people who can't, anyway? There are lots of ways that people with practice can get better at Melee. What's so important about L-cancelling that it should be one of them? To me, it's just a waste of energy.
Lastly, the whole "it's second nature with practice anyway" mentality is a common flaw of a bad game designer. =P
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EPT
