On June 01 2009 00:45 anotak wrote: Bill, wavedashing is pretty easy... I never played melee seriously anywhere near a tournament level (and I'm glad about it actually), I never even owned the game, I didn't spend more than an hour in training mode practicing it and I could do it pretty consistently after that. I had more trouble learning to do a Shoryu FADC in street fighter 4 or nearly any character's bread and butter combos in a real fighting game.
You think I haven't tried wavedashing before?
I tried it with Marth and it took me maybe an hour to get it to happen even once. I can't see myself using it in a serious match without a LOT more practice to make it very consistent.
I also learned that the timing is different for every character, which is yet another dumb obstacle.
You claim that you want to discuss game design and yet you are discussing wavedashing which wasn’t meant to be a technique in the game. I explained this in my previous post, go back and read again. If gamers find ways to tweak the physics of the game I guess you could argue that such exploits shouldn’t have been possible in the first place. But it’s pretty ridiculous to say that the exploits are too hard to perform. That would be like saying: “hey, make sure that there won’t be any ways of tweaking the game design, but if a gamer somehow comes up with a way, you must make sure that it’s very easy to execute.” The timing of the wavedash varies because different characters have different respons time to their jump, not because Nintendo wanted to ensure that a technique they didn’t intended to be in the game would be hard to pull off. I can however agree with your arguments regarding L-cancelling, though, in my opinion I think that it’s good that the game rewards players who have taken their time to learn techs. That purely subjective though, everyone can have different opinions.
The reason I'm posting about it is because I think there's a large body of fighting game players, even competitive ones, who are pushed away from Melee because of its execution requirements.
I don’t know anything about other fighting games but this statement surprised me. From discussions on smashboards (the largest smash forum) I have got the impression that gamers from other communities see smash as very untechnical. But you probably know better than I do. Anyway, I want to stress that Melee is very easy to pick up. You can have fun with the game within the first minute so I can’t imagine why there would be such a large body of uncompetitive gamers that find Melee too hard.. Honestly, it was meant to be a Nintendo party-game and has sold over 6 million copies (#1 selling GC-game). Very few of these have ever heard about the advanced techniques.
No one is going to convince me to play Melee heavily: I have a number of gripes about the game, from the execution we've discussed, to the slippery-slope effect of taking damage. (One thing I like about other 2D fighters compared to StarCraft is that as I'm losing, my ability to make a comeback does not diminish, whereas in StarCraft a comeback becomes a LOT harder the worse off your situation gets. Now Smash doesn't suffer from this effect nearly as badly as StarCraft does, but it's there and it's noticeable.)
False. How did you even come up with this? First of all, attacks do less and less damage. If I hit you with the same attack over and over, the damage you get will be lower for each time. This benefit the one taking hits. Secondly, more % give you more knockback. This means that it gets harder and harder to pull off a combo as the player with high % can DI away. Note that it gets much harder to land KO-hits when they are not connected in a combo. Take Marth for instance. Marth can often link chain-grabbs or hits to tippers and get KOs around 60-80%. But when the opponent gets more % this gets harder/impossible to do so which makes it much harder to land a KO-hit. It’s also easier for the one with high % to perform a big combo on a low % player than vice-versa. In Melee you can see 0-60%-combos (or even 0%-KO) but never 100-160%-combos. Finally, when someone is KO’ed he get invincibility time as well as 0 % which enables him to trade hits which is a big help. All these factors make a comeback easier. If you watch competitive Melee, it’s pretty common that they take turns in KOs. Of course high % makes you more vulnerable to strong attacks. Just as low HP will get you killed easier in other fighting games. But that’s pretty much the point of the game. Why would you try to hit you opponent if it didn’t give you an advantage whatsoever?
It's not any more balanced than many other 2D fighters, either.
That is true. They also nerfed weak characters when releasing new versions. At least there is not one character that is far more dominant like in Brawl.
On May 31 2009 05:41 traced wrote: di is the worst tech skill, because of how unintuitive it is. you're basically pulling the velocity vector in a direction. you should...probably just push the control stick in the direction you most want to go.
DI is the most important skill to master, and the hardest to perfect. It's not only used to survive kill moves, it's also important for evading combos, screwing with the opponents head with real sketchy knockback (DI jabs behind the oppponent, for example), and aiming for parts of the stage to tech off of. There's also the concept of Smash DI.
I don't understand what you mean by how unintuitive it is. The best survival DI is (for the most part) pushing the joystick perpendicular to what you expect your knockback to be. If you're going to die upwards, push to the side. If you're going to die to the side, push upwards and towards the opponent. It's a really unique concept, but it's not that tough to pick up.
If you're actually suggesting that you can determine your trajectory on attacks based on the direction you're holding, wouldn't that be a bit silly? You would hold down so you never get off the stage. Without DI...well, look at SSB64 combo videos >_>
EDIT: Can we change the title of this thread, or make a new one? It seems to be a lot about debating over Brawl and Melee rather than Brawl+.
man you didn't understand what i meant at all. i know about di. and i was in no way "suggesting" anything you wrote.
i guess the misunderstanding was "di is the worst tech skill." it's the worst implemented tech skill. i'm not saying it shouldn't be in the game, just that the way it works is retarded.
how does holding a direction after you get hit to pull the direction of the velocity vector make any sense? if people are hit in a certain direction, people naturally hold the opposite direction - this is why it's unintuitive.
really it should work exactly the same as how post-stun air momentum works - if you hold a direction, you're adding a velocity in that direction. so no, if you hold down when you get hit you won't always stay on the stage (what?) because if you get hit at say...realfastx10, and holding down is only slowx3 you'll still travel upwards at realfastx10-slowx3.
On May 31 2009 05:41 traced wrote: and the insanely small reaction time window you have.
Funny, I always thought that was called "reaction time", not technical skill.
1st quote -
it's a timing thing. i can teach people who've never wavedashed to consistently do it in like 10 minutes irl.
yeah i guess it's difficult for someone who has never wavedashed to wavedash out of the blue with no guidance, but such is anything. it's an easily executed mechanic.
2nd - well...no, it's part reaction time, part tech skill. it's kind of like apm/micro in sc
I'm going to add something I don't think was mentioned. So Bill307 was hypothesizing earlier about 1 button wavedashes and automatic L-cancels. Now the argument over tech skill and game depth relation is nearly always a fruitless one so I'm not touching that.
What I want to point out is that for wavedashes, simplifying its execution to a single input will actually decrease a player's range of options, since in the input sequence that creates a wavedash, a player can dictate how far he wants to wavedash. Players with control can wavedash at varying lengths in order to adjust for spacing (wavedash length varies based on angle of the D-stick). The simplest example would be Marth wavedashing into fsmash tipper spacing. By controlling wavedash length he can apply tippers in more situations than otherwise.
So yeah, I doubt "1 button wavedashes" could emulate the range of control.
On May 31 2009 05:41 traced wrote: di is the worst tech skill, because of how unintuitive it is. you're basically pulling the velocity vector in a direction. you should...probably just push the control stick in the direction you most want to go.
DI is the most important skill to master, and the hardest to perfect. It's not only used to survive kill moves, it's also important for evading combos, screwing with the opponents head with real sketchy knockback (DI jabs behind the oppponent, for example), and aiming for parts of the stage to tech off of. There's also the concept of Smash DI.
I don't understand what you mean by how unintuitive it is. The best survival DI is (for the most part) pushing the joystick perpendicular to what you expect your knockback to be. If you're going to die upwards, push to the side. If you're going to die to the side, push upwards and towards the opponent. It's a really unique concept, but it's not that tough to pick up.
If you're actually suggesting that you can determine your trajectory on attacks based on the direction you're holding, wouldn't that be a bit silly? You would hold down so you never get off the stage. Without DI...well, look at SSB64 combo videos >_>
EDIT: Can we change the title of this thread, or make a new one? It seems to be a lot about debating over Brawl and Melee rather than Brawl+.
man you didn't understand what i meant at all. i know about di. and i was in no way "suggesting" anything you wrote.
i guess the misunderstanding was "di is the worst tech skill." it's the worst implemented tech skill. i'm not saying it shouldn't be in the game, just that the way it works is retarded.
how does holding a direction after you get hit to pull the direction of the velocity vector make any sense? if people are hit in a certain direction, people naturally hold the opposite direction - this is why it's unintuitive.
really it should work exactly the same as how post-stun air momentum works - if you hold a direction, you're adding a velocity in that direction. so no, if you hold down when you get hit you won't always stay on the stage (what?) because if you get hit at say...realfastx10, and holding down is only slowx3 you'll still travel upwards at realfastx10-slowx3.
In any case, I like how DI works, it's so awesome . I guess it's all personal preference.
Damn, Bill. I think for once I actually disagree with you, no matter how well spoken you are
100% behind anotak. SF4 is ridiculously easy execution. One frame links are hard, yes. Thankfully, the only character that consistently uses one to my knowledge is Rufus (lk -> hp). The common "hard" links are all 2 frame (ryu's f + hp into jab, sagat c.lkx2, etc.)
Maybe it's hard to consistently ex seismo sjc into meterless fadc ultra as viper, but things like that are the exception not the rule (and just take some extra time to get down in match.)
Had you said most anything else, I'd agree with you, but SF4 is anything but execution heavy. Fadcs and wavedashes are pretty similar in that all it takes is playing a little to get them down with little trouble (speaking from personal experience). Do it a couple times with Luigi (I think thats right, been a while) to see how it's done since his is lenient as hell, then adjust it to the char of your choice.
Is this really the same Bill who made that Arcana Heart combo video!?
That comeback video got the most important element of comeback videos wrong. There's no crowd in it
Fun to see melee and brawl juxtaposed though. I'd forgotten how much better of a game melee really is.
For more on what comeback videos should look like:
As a Marth player as well as a follow Swede, the EK vs. Nihonjin always make me sad :D Great match though. I also think that it illustrates what I was talking about earlier. On the last stock, Ek is spamming f-smashes like crazy but they are much harder to land when they are not connected to a combo so they are either blocked or not sweetspotted.
On June 01 2009 13:44 EchOne wrote: What I want to point out is that for wavedashes, simplifying its execution to a single input will actually decrease a player's range of options, since in the input sequence that creates a wavedash, a player can dictate how far he wants to wavedash. Players with control can wavedash at varying lengths in order to adjust for spacing (wavedash length varies based on angle of the D-stick). The simplest example would be Marth wavedashing into fsmash tipper spacing. By controlling wavedash length he can apply tippers in more situations than otherwise.
So yeah, I doubt "1 button wavedashes" could emulate the range of control.
Yeah I was going to mention this but my previous post got so long. People claiming that Melee have techs that just forces the player to press a lot of buttons have absolutely no knowledge of the Melee game-play. Hot_Bid mentioned a standard Fox-combo earlier; a shuffled drillshine followed by a wavedash to an up smash. Sure, a lot of buttons must be pressed very fast in order to execute this combo, but every action has a specific purpose. These are the buttons pressed: Short jump (you only want to be in the air when performing an areal, or you put yourself in a bad position) Dair (gives the opponent the first hit-stun and is one option that can start the combo [other options are of course available, like a Nair]) Fast fall (see short jump) L-cancel (reduce the lag time you get when you land) Shine (deflects shieldgrabbing and one option that continues the combo) Jump [as the first part of the wavedash] (cancel the lagtime of the shine) R/L + joystick (let you control how long you need to wavedash in order to catch up with the opponents DI so you can continue the combo) Up smash (one option that continues the combo)
The combo system in smash is very dynamic, each of these actions has a purpose and let the player control the flow of the combo. In some other fighting games you need to press a series of buttons and then a combo is released upon the opponent. In smash you have to keep pressing in order to keep the combo going and because of DI and choices, the combos can look very different. (Note that I know that you have to keep making attacks in other fighting games to keep the combo going, but in Melee there are no pre-set combos) Some of these actions could be neglected and the player would still be able to pull it off, but each action makes it easier to succeed. So my point is, each button press has one purpose. How could this be simplified, without removing the players’ control of the combo? The exception is L-cancelling which obviously could be automatic, but other stuff like fast falling and short jumping should not be automatic because the player must also have the option to full jump and not fast fall etc.
This video made third strike popular because of the impressive execution involved.
On June 01 2009 05:44 Bill307 wrote: You think I haven't tried wavedashing before?
I tried it with Marth and it took me maybe an hour to get it to happen even once. I can't see myself using it in a serious match without a LOT more practice to make it very consistent.
I also learned that the timing is different for every character, which is yet another dumb obstacle.
I did it with marth too as he was my main. And yes, the timing is different for every character
I've written pretty much exactly the same thing you did about the necessity of motions like dragon-punches and QCFx2 in other 2D fighters. (1-button 720s would be lolz.) And there is no comparison to what we are discussing here in Smash.
Why is there no comparison? Sure, it's a wavedash isn't a shoryu, but it's an action in a game that you have to be READY TO DO.
How am I disliking Smash for the wrong reasons? I dislike having to invest a lot of time into execution in order to compete.
Then perhaps competitive gaming is not for you. Every serious competitive game has an execution barrier involved. As a player who generally has terrible execution in every game I play, I still ENJOY the requirement. Among other things, it lets me outsmart players with better execution than me a great challenge and a very rewarding feeling when I do so.
For me, this discussion isn't about changing Melee or making it better. Ultimately, this is about the design of fighting games in general. As someone who might be designing games professionally one day, discussing game design serves a purpose to me.
As it does to me for the same reasons.
But if you want to change my opinions on what makes good fighting game design, or good game design in general, or when tough execution is good or bad, then you may succeed.
I doubt it, people tend to be very convinced of opinions like this. I know that vocal parts of the fighting game community dislike execution (really Sirlin mainly). I'll try anyway I suppose.
Here's a post a friend of mine made in a thread on SRK quite a while ago about 3P/3K buttons in tournaments:
The difficulty of execution in fighting games is not an unintended effect. If it was then spinning pile driver would not be a 360 motion, it would be a quarter circle or even the same as a normal throw.
In the case of mapping PPP/KKK to buttons in SF4, it is ridiculous because it would effectively give Zangief and only Zangief a dragon punch button. It is no mystery that the lariats have huge hitbox on activation, and the kick lariat in particular will beat just about every ground poke that touches it during its activation.
You might think that this is a stupid example because hitting 3 buttons at the same time should be effortless for a stick player, but then try this example and see what you think:
To get lariat to come out the fastest possible, you have to have your fingers resting on all three of the button type you want before it is time to react and do the lariat to eliminate travel time of your fingers moving into position if they have to and then actually moving downward to hit the buttons (very small but significant added execution time).
Try getting a stick and putting 3 fingers on the kicks, and record ryu to throw fireballs and see your success rate of trying to lariat with this technique, no lifting your fingers to hit the buttons allowed. Even if you are good at doing it, there will likely be times where you will mess up and get a normal and not lariat, this kind of screwup is very significant in a heated match where you are say trying to hit rufus c.fp with a kick lariat on reaction. Not only is there a possibility of error, but because you have three fingers busy with trying to hit lariat as fast as possible, you will be slightly delayed in trying to do something else because of the awkward hand position. Such a wall of text dedicated to these small downsides, but they are what makes it possible for rufus to have c.fp as a usable move (usable as in being an attack that can be in rufus' advantage to do).
Compare to if you have one button for PPP and one for KKK. Not much forethought is required other than placing a pinky on KKK button. There is no possibility of messing up and getting a normal, and the rest of the fingers are free to freely maneuver with, so Rufus will now be severely limited in his methods of attack in this already difficult matchup.
So as you see, this issue of EXECUTION affects the STRATEGY of a matchup. If every option in every situation is immediately accessible then suddenly the game becomes to an extent less strategic. A lot of things about fighting games relies on doing thing your opponent is not ready for and therefore cannot do in time. Sagat's standing roundhouse can be jabbed by zangief, or it can be SPD'd. The SPD does much more damage, gives a knockdown, yet the jab is a better strategy.
I'll write a more thorough explanation of issues related to this soon I'm just very tired right now.
On June 01 2009 07:49 Bill307 wrote: Or if you're referring to shoryu FADC ultra, if you think that's easy then you've been playing fighting games for too long.
I've been playing fighting games since last september.
did anyone happen to download the codes? the download links are apparently down and I want to try this. I'm using 4.0 and i have homebrew channel + gecko OS installed.
On June 07 2009 08:16 Amber[LighT] wrote: did anyone happen to download the codes? the download links are apparently down and I want to try this. I'm using 4.0 and i have homebrew channel + gecko OS installed.
google is your friend...but I tried it last night..its better than brawl crawl, but all things considered Id play melee anyday over it.
Also Funny fact about the ek vs amsah match is that EK almost made the exact comeback from 4 stocks down earlier in the set I believe, but ended up falling short. Oh well...tis alot harder to do with Marth..especially PAL marth, then again against PAL sheik the matchup is prolly evenish in the first place.
Please only make judgments of 64 if you have credentials and/or evidence. I have none, but I'd love to see a substantial debate if there are people who can field one.
The engine of 64 is clearly much slower than that of melee (due mostly to the fact that characters fall slower in 64). The combos are just longer because of insane hitstun and lack of DI. In certain matchups stocks go by as fast or faster in 64 than in melee.
On June 07 2009 10:55 EchOne wrote: Please only make judgments of 64 if you have credentials and/or evidence. I have none, but I'd love to see a substantial debate if there are people who can field one.
Lol what kind of credentials are you looking for? And what debate are you talking about?
EPT
. I guess it's all personal preference.
