On May 29 2009 13:34 ThatGuy wrote: Okay what? How is Brawl immobile? Do you think the game is too slow or something? Brawl is extremely flexible when it comes to movement.
Are you kidding me?
In the air:
- No air dash. - Very slow air dodge. - No air block. - Slow horizontal air movement (for many characters).
On the ground:
- No forward dash. - No backdash. - Running limits your attack options. - Slow rolls.
E.g. there's no way to dash towards your opponent on the ground without limiting yourself to like 3 different options (i.e. running). There's no way to dash back, either. Wavedashing filled both of these roles in Melee, though.
As for attacks:
- No jump-cancellable moves. - Few chains and cancellable moves (like Snake's A-A-A). - Few moves give you frame advantage on block. - Landing lag.
In most cases, if you do 1 attack and it's blocked, your offensive is done.
Also, because blocking is done with 1 button, the only mixup you can use against a defensive opponent is throw vs attack.
In short, Brawl = immobile and inflexible.
I can't see how anyone can find Brawl mobile or flexible, unless the only fighters they've played are Brawl, SSB64, SF2, or SF4.
In the air -No air dash is an argument? If anything it's simply a feature and not too many games have that, Brawl does not require it -Fast air dodges (do you mean slow as in long-lasting?). -Air block has nothing to do with mobility, but some characters have moves with super armor which may be used to absorb impact fully regardless. In any case the air dodge is way more than sufficient to handle that; otherwise, don't get hit. -If by slow you mean literally speaking, then yes, Brawl is a slower paced and floatier game than its predecessor. Relatively speaking, most characters still have a lot of control in the air.
To add to that, Brawl also has: -B reversals -Plenty of special moves available for movement -Normal attacks that change momentum in the air -Multiple jumps for certain characters
On the ground -There is a forward dash... -I will concede that reversing ground movement is not as flexible as it could be. Dash dancing is still there, but it can only be done on dash startup frames, so it's only useful for stalling in place and doesn't really get you anywhere (mild fakeout at best). That's why aerial mobility takes presence here, and walking is also ever present. -"Running limits your attack options" which is blatantly false. You can shield cancel your run (low shield drop lag), so anything you can do standing still you can do while running. Running is also necessary for dash attack cancels (explained later). You can also do reverse aerials (run, turn around and attack with a back air with full aerial momentum if desired), as well as pivot grabs. -The fact that you said 'slow rolls' is nuts. Rolls have been buffed in Brawl over Melee and are much harder to punish, due to invincibility, speed, and distance. There are few characters that have unviable rolls.
Now for attacks:
-Everything may be shield-cancelled now due to extremely low shield drop lag, so jump-cancelling is moot here. -All jabs may be jab-cancelled (Ike is notorious for this). Yes, there are very few combos in Brawl, that's the nature of the game -Correct, because of very low shield stun and shield drop lag. That also means spacing is very important. This also means that some ground games become quite risky to use. -Some characters have such little landing lag that it barely matters, but yes, increasing landing lag does hamper mobility. There's a heavy emphasis for spacing and timing here, and at least many aerials auto-cancel.
"In most cases, if you do 1 attack and it's blocked, your offensive is done." You're right! It's a very defensive game. You have to be overly cautious with your offense in many cases. If you want my personal opinion on this, Brawl can actually have a pretty solid offensive game as well. I have many videos of my Mario (bottom tier )where I play very offensive if you are interested in watching them. Ally and M2K, the people who win the biggest and the most tournaments, are pretty offensive players.
"because blocking is done with 1 button" LOL. Almost every fighting game is like that!
"the only mixup you can use against a defensive opponent is throw vs attack." I don't quite fully get this statement, but I assume you mean someone that shields a lot can only be beaten by throws? You can space aerials plenty well against a shielding opponent, and their shield will diminish enough for you to pierce it.
Brawl also has: -Dash attack cancels (some characters may cancel dash attacks into UpSmashes, which give them a huge momentum boost along the ground similar to a Luigi wavedash. They may also be cancelled into item throws for the same effect) -Glide tossing (roll + toss item = gliding effect, normally not as long as aforementioned technique)
On May 29 2009 13:34 ThatGuy wrote: Okay what? How is Brawl immobile? Do you think the game is too slow or something? Brawl is extremely flexible when it comes to movement.
Are you kidding me?
In the air:
- No air dash. - Very slow air dodge. - No air block. - Slow horizontal air movement (for many characters).
On the ground:
- No forward dash. - No backdash. - Running limits your attack options. - Slow rolls.
E.g. there's no way to dash towards your opponent on the ground without limiting yourself to like 3 different options (i.e. running). There's no way to dash back, either. Wavedashing filled both of these roles in Melee, though.
As for attacks:
- No jump-cancellable moves. - Few chains and cancellable moves (like Snake's A-A-A). - Few moves give you frame advantage on block. - Landing lag.
In most cases, if you do 1 attack and it's blocked, your offensive is done.
Also, because blocking is done with 1 button, the only mixup you can use against a defensive opponent is throw vs attack.
In short, Brawl = immobile and inflexible.
I can't see how anyone can find Brawl mobile or flexible, unless the only fighters they've played are Brawl, SSB64, SF2, or SF4.
In the air -No air dash is an argument? If anything it's simply a feature and not too many games have that, Brawl does not require it -Fast air dodges (do you mean slow as in long-lasting?). -Air block has nothing to do with mobility, but some characters have moves with super armor which may be used to absorb impact fully regardless. In any case the air dodge is way more than sufficient to handle that; otherwise, don't get hit. -If by slow you mean literally speaking, then yes, Brawl is a slower paced and floatier game than its predecessor. Relatively speaking, most characters still have a lot of control in the air.
To add to that, Brawl also has: -B reversals -Plenty of special moves available for movement -Normal attacks that change momentum in the air -Multiple jumps for certain characters
On the ground -There is a forward dash... -I will concede that reversing ground movement is not as flexible as it could be. Dash dancing is still there, but it can only be done on dash startup frames, so it's only useful for stalling in place and doesn't really get you anywhere (mild fakeout at best). That's why aerial mobility takes presence here, and walking is also ever present. -"Running limits your attack options" which is blatantly false. You can shield cancel your run (low shield drop lag), so anything you can do standing still you can do while running. Running is also necessary for dash attack cancels (explained later). You can also do reverse aerials (run, turn around and attack with a back air with full aerial momentum if desired), as well as pivot grabs. -The fact that you said 'slow rolls' is nuts. Rolls have been buffed in Brawl over Melee and are much harder to punish, due to invincibility, speed, and distance. There are few characters that have unviable rolls.
Now for attacks:
-Everything may be shield-cancelled now due to extremely low shield drop lag, so jump-cancelling is moot here. -All jabs may be jab-cancelled (Ike is notorious for this). Yes, there are very few combos in Brawl, that's the nature of the game -Correct, because of very low shield stun and shield drop lag. That also means spacing is very important. This also means that some ground games become quite risky to use. -Some characters have such little landing lag that it barely matters, but yes, increasing landing lag does hamper mobility. There's a heavy emphasis for spacing and timing here, and at least many aerials auto-cancel.
"In most cases, if you do 1 attack and it's blocked, your offensive is done." You're right! It's a very defensive game. You have to be overly cautious with your offense in many cases. If you want my personal opinion on this, Brawl can actually have a pretty solid offensive game as well. I have many videos of my Mario (bottom tier )where I play very offensive if you are interested in watching them. Ally and M2K, the people who win the biggest and the most tournaments, are pretty offensive players.
"because blocking is done with 1 button" LOL. Almost every fighting game is like that!
"the only mixup you can use against a defensive opponent is throw vs attack." I don't quite fully get this statement, but I assume you mean someone that shields a lot can only be beaten by throws? You can space aerials plenty well against a shielding opponent, and their shield will diminish enough for you to pierce it.
Brawl also has: -Dash attack cancels (some characters may cancel dash attacks into UpSmashes, which give them a huge momentum boost along the ground similar to a Luigi wavedash. They may also be cancelled into item throws for the same effect) -Glide tossing (roll + toss item = gliding effect, normally not as long as aforementioned technique)
It's the physical slowness that inhibits the game. Half of melee was mind games and approaches. In melee, you could wavedash, short hop to waveland, pivot, do w/e the heck you wanted as you approached. This meant you kept your opponent on your toes and made aggressive play beneficial. In brawl, not only are you options limited, but everything is slow motion. Because of this, mind games lose a lot of its powers. So not only does it make the mechanics of the game extremely easy, it also takes away from the other facet of play.
If you want an example of how the slow gameplay completely ruins the game, use BtT as an example. In Melee Break the Targets, people were maxing scores with 5 year old records. In Brawl, nearly all of the scores are almost perfectly maxed. In Melee, there are things that humans can't perform, but in Brawl, almost everything is probably possible for human hands. As a result of slow gameplay coupled with un innovative stages, stadium is already dead after barely a year after Brawl's debut, while Melee's stadium lived till the end.
"because blocking is done with 1 button" LOL. Almost every fighting game is like that!
Well, that alone is enough to show you really don't know what you're talking about.
Almost every fighting game blocks by holding straight backwards to block high and down back to block low. No difference between high / low when in the air for games with air blocking.
The reason that matters is that means in most fighters you have at least 5 different ways to beat someone who's blocking (high, low, crossup high, crossup low, throw). Compared to brawl's 2 (attack, throw), it's much easier to block in brawl. Of 8 fighters Evolution will run this year, the only one with a block button is Soul Caliber IV, and that game still has high / low blocking (and other things like gaurd crushes and unblockables since there aren't crossups).
I can't believe you'd argue that brawl actually has solid air mobility or much of an offensive game. It simply isn't true. And that doesn't necessarily make it a bad game either!
But when Bill refers to air mobility and offensive options, he means the type of air control and speed present in games like Marvel vs Capcom 2, Arcana Heart, Guilty Gear X2 and the like.
I could go on as to why, but it probably wouldn't make much sense without having played them for comparison yourself.
Right on, lots of feedback here! Now I get to see why people 'hate' Brawl.
On May 29 2009 17:52 Meta wrote: Dude if you don't think brawl is slow and clunky you've clearly never played melee at a high level
I used to, from 2006-2008.
This is a video of Jarc and I beating RayneX and Unknown522 in teams (final game of the set). The notable thing in this video is despite my partner being gimped twice and killed once by me, and me being forced into a 1v2 vs. both these guys, we still won. I used to be a very good teams player. I can show a couple more videos if you want. My Singles skills were never up to par, sadly; Quebec is just way too good.
@nevake:
Yes, the game is slower than Melee. I find it to still be a reasonable pace, but I guess that's up for opinion. However, the speed is not what inhibits the mechanics here, it's the fact that there are literally very few difficult mechanics to actually work on (i.e. tech skill). The technical barrier for Brawl is practically non-existant, and most techniques can be picked up and implemented after about an hour of practice (or less). This makes the gap between players much closer than what people are normally used to.
Mind games definately do not lose powers due to slow gameplay; in fact I think it's the opposite. Because the game is slow, mind games are much more important than before. You can no longer overwhelm an opponent with sheer execution; you have to out-think them every time, for every punish, especially since there are no combos. The entire game relies heavily on spacing, timing, and zoning. With such a lack of technical skill to add a skill gap, it's much easier to become good, but it's MUCH harder to become great.
As for BTT, I honestly don't know what to say about this. Strategies are devised using Action Replay and other cheat methods to frame-by-frame everything, so speed of the game means nothing. It DOES mean that it's more difficult to have enough execution to get WR in Melee. I also agree that they could have done a MUCH better job with the BtT stages; definately not enough variety there. Other than that, I can't say I'm very involved with the competitive BtT stadium community, so I'll leave that one up to your judgement.
@Trumpet:
I misinterpreted his statement if that's what he meant. Blocking in conventional fighters is still 1 input. I thought he meant something like "Hold Punch+Kick+Back" to block, which is obviously an absurd idea; I guess I was just thinking to literally here.
Shields diminish as you attack them, or as long as they are held up for enough time. You can therefore shieldstab opponents who hold their shield up for too much time. Kage did this very often in Melee with his Ganon, where he would use his hangtime for an impending attack to stab the bottom of shields with a down-air.
2:24 is a pretty blatant example, haha.
In Brawl, the exact same concept applies. MK is notorious for shieldstabbing opponents due to his tornado. The basic method to defend this is to tilt the shield upwards to deflect the incoming hits, or you will get sucked in. Shields can be tilted in any direction to avoid any incoming stabs.
I don't understand how Brawl doesn't have good aerial mobility. There is almost too much mobility in the air. Is it because Brawl is slower paced? I just found it funny that if Bill really meant games like that, then why doesn't he call Melee immobile and inflexible? Is it only because of the wavedash?
@anotak:
Yes, Brawl rewards defensive play very much (very strong airdodges, very strong sidesteps, easier powershielding, little shield stun, little shield drop lag). So what? Just because you're not used to it, doesn't make the game BAD.
Here's a quick video of JJWolf, a player I enjoy watching for his finesse with Wolf (hilarious ending):
Is the game really that slow?
There are many different things you guys can complain about, but a lot of these arguments apply to Melee as well! Why aren't you talking that game's mobility down then?
My personal pet peeves about Brawl:
-Tripping. No one likes that. -UpB glitch. If you edgehop after doing an UpB, it will retain the landing lag of the UpB next time you land on the ground without attacking. It's really lame and only affects a few characters (one of them being my own ) -Extra inputs for wall jumping. You can walljump by holding towards the wall and pushing away as well as holding towards the wall and pushing jump. I find the jumping input to be totally unecessary and it usually puts me in many stupid situations when I would just want to grab the edge. I would use that as an argument against Brawl's mobility. -Auto edge snapping. If it wasn't for this, people would not complain about 'broken edge tactics'. It just makes planking strategies more difficult to deal with than necessary.
Brawl is probably one of the only games where offensive play is not very rewarding. If that is the reason why people think it's 'bad', then so be it; I personally think it's unique.
First of all, please keep in mind I'm comparing Brawl to 2D fighters in general, primarily ones that aren't SF2 or SF4, which are imo relatively immobile games as well.
In the air -No air dash is an argument? If anything it's simply a feature and not too many games have that, Brawl does not require it -Fast air dodges (do you mean slow as in long-lasting?). -Air block has nothing to do with mobility, but some characters have moves with super armor which may be used to absorb impact fully regardless. In any case the air dodge is way more than sufficient to handle that; otherwise, don't get hit. -If by slow you mean literally speaking, then yes, Brawl is a slower paced and floatier game than its predecessor. Relatively speaking, most characters still have a lot of control in the air.
To add to that, Brawl also has: -B reversals -Plenty of special moves available for movement -Normal attacks that change momentum in the air -Multiple jumps for certain characters
- No air dash reduces air mobilty substantially. There's a big difference between games that have it and games that don't. - Air dodges are slow as heck because of their long-ass recovery.
- Air block adds to the air game. Without it, air confrontations boil down to one of two things: either you both do attacks and the better one wins, or one of you dodges and you both just fall back down. In contrast to dodging, air-blocking can lead to follow-up mindgames.
- Lots of games have moves that change your trajectory in the air. But they are a lot less useful than air dashes because they (typically) last a lot longer and/or have considerable recovery. So you can't use them to, say, quickly close the gap and then attack arbitrarily.
- Flying is pretty good for mobility, I'll give it that.
On the ground -There is a forward dash... -I will concede that reversing ground movement is not as flexible as it could be. Dash dancing is still there, but it can only be done on dash startup frames, so it's only useful for stalling in place and doesn't really get you anywhere (mild fakeout at best). That's why aerial mobility takes presence here, and walking is also ever present. -"Running limits your attack options" which is blatantly false. You can shield cancel your run (low shield drop lag), so anything you can do standing still you can do while running. Running is also necessary for dash attack cancels (explained later). You can also do reverse aerials (run, turn around and attack with a back air with full aerial momentum if desired), as well as pivot grabs. -The fact that you said 'slow rolls' is nuts. Rolls have been buffed in Brawl over Melee and are much harder to punish, due to invincibility, speed, and distance. There are few characters that have unviable rolls.
- I've never tried shield-cancelling a dash. Does it allow you to do quick dash-in jabs or dash-in *arbitrary attack*? I doubt it'd be nearly as fast as a dash-in attack in most 2D fighters, let alone wavedashing-in in Melee, but if it is, then I underestimated Brawl's ground mobility. I do think it's dumb to need to press shield in between, though. Pretty much any 2D fighter with dashing or running allows you to do arbitrary attacks out of it without needing something like shield-cancelling in between.
- I'm not interested in rolls being punishable: I'm interested in them being useful for attacking. And compared to other games with rolls or other (semi-)invincible command dashes, rolls in Brawl are indeed slow. Example: rolls in CvS2: you can actually roll past most attacks and punish while the attack is still recovering.
Shield-cancelling and shield-stabbing sound very useful for giving you more offensive options, which I like.
Although being able to keep pressure on an opponent is not a mobility issue, to me it is important to make a game feel faster-paced and to give me more options for my offense. (i.e. more flexibility)
As for Melee having no airdashes, it more than makes up for it with its ground mobility and short-hop-fast-fall antics, as well as characters like Jigglypuff who have great horizontal movement in the air. Although I don't play Melee at that level myself (or at all, really), I have no doubts about its mobility.
I think I've made my point of how Brawl is immobile and inflexible compared to other 2D fighters in general, including but not limited to Melee.
It doesn't make the game "bad" necessarily. It just makes it less appealing to those of us who prefer games with lots of mobility, flexibility, and options.
Lastly, about game speed and mind games: imo a slower game has fewer mind games because more things can be anticipated and countered on-reaction. Fewer ways to threaten your opponent leads to fewer ways to play mind games with them, imo.
By the way, one of the reasons I don't play Melee is because of the technical skills. Don't get me wrong: I think having depth of technical skill is a good thing. But they CAN be a barrier to people who don't want to spend a lot of time to be able to play the game at a high level.
I don't understand why people think this is one of Melee's good traits.
(2D?) Fighting games generally offer you benefits for having very advanced technical skills, and they generally have very high skill ceilings. However, as you get more and more advanced, the benefits (should) diminish. For a player like me, this means I can go into the game with pretty good technical skills and fare well against someone with extremely good technical skills. Of course he'll have an advantage, but it's a small one.
IMO, ironically, by trying to make Smash games newbie-friendly, the developers created a situation where the "normal", newbie-friendly abilities of the characters are so limited that advanced techniques will grant large advantages to those who can wield them.
Yes, Shield dashing allows you to do any of those. You can only shield cancel out of a run however, not during the initial dash frames. This isn't really an issue most of the time considering that if a single dash will bring you to your opponent, you're pretty much in attacking distance most of the time. It's basically the same premise as dash cancelling in Melee using Crouch.
Rolling inside of someone is usually good for evading a frontal attack to punish them from behind. Some people rely on it way too much. You can't cancel your roll into anything, but if you're smart with it you can punish your opponent's aggression with it. If you're at the edge and your opponent respawns, NEVER NEVER NEVER roll towards them! It's a classic bait that's been done since the early Melee days, and all the new scrubs keep falling for it! Fight for every square inch.
To clarify on this, everything is situational. Most of the time, you don't have dominating mathematical frame advantage when you roll behind an opponent, but you do have positional advantage, and the frame advatage is usually pretty negligable based on reactions. This forces your opponent to react in a certain way:
-Turn around and attack: This may defeat slower attacks, shield (safest option, but also usually the least rewarding), and slower grabs. This may be defeated by a sidestep, powershield, fast attacks, and sometimes a grab (if a grab connects at the same time as an attack, the attacker will damage the grabber, but the grabber will still grab the attacker and suffer no damage. This is known as 'Faux armor'.). Usually this reaction is too slow to beat attacks or grabs. -Shield: This will 'defeat' attacks in the sense that positional advantage is someone neutralized. Obviously destroyed by grabs. -Sidestep: Defeats trigger-happy people, but gets punished hard if predicted -Roll: Same as sidestep, and generally safer, but you don't get to directly attack your opponent
Snake gets the added benefit of pulling out a grenade and shielding, so any attempted attack will result in a counter explosion, and if he gets grabbed there is a good chance that the grabber may trigger the grenade with a hitbox. Stupid Snake .
For aerial momentum, you're right for the most part, although gliding is an important tool for Metaknight and Pit. However, the down air for Game and Watch and Sonic are pretty important for aerial movement (ZSS and Sheik have similar down airs but they don't seem to use it as much, although ZSS has a footstool infinite on ROB that requires Dair usage). It would be interesting to see air dashing in Brawl, I don't know what I could expect out of it, haha.
You have to try out Wario in Brawl. His horizontal air movement is absurd.
"Lastly, about game speed and mind games: imo a slower game has fewer mind games because more things can be anticipated and countered on-reaction. Fewer ways to threaten your opponent leads to fewer ways to play mind games with them, imo."
I see what you mean. I'm not going to lie, of course you can counter a lot of things on reaction, but you would be surprised at how difficult it can be to defend against a smart offensive player. Pressure and zoning are big. I do admit that I rely quite a bit on visual cues to figure out what my opponent is going to do to me, so I can determine how I will react. Recently people have been baiting me by using these visual cues but going into a completely different mixup where my conventional punish does not work. I'm trying to change this by...
WIFI TRAINING!
Hilariously enough, in its current state wifi is probably more useful for self-improvement than if it was actually...good. I wrote a blog about my wifi experiences which you can read here: http://allisbrawl.com/blogpost.aspx?id=21180. TLDR version: Wifi is great for mental training because you cannot call out an opponent based on visual cues, you are forced to predict what they will do at least 1/2 a second in advance. It's an abysmal experience with great benefits if you can tough it out. Avoid playing on Wifi if you're trying to have a good time!
@selboN: I use the standard GC controller as that is what I'm most familiar with. Many skilled players use the wiimote+nunchuck though.
@Bill post # 2: Agreed, the technical skill requirement serves as a barrier. Some people love it, others hate it. Melee is interesting though, you don't need to have tremendous technical skill to keep up, you just need to be smart enough to know how to deal with it. Kage plays Ganon, and the biggest technical skill he needs to worry about is L-Cancelling. He almost never wavedashes, and he's been incorperating more platform dashes into his game over the past year. Yet he still places incredibly high in stacked tournaments because of his flawless spacing, pressure, and composure. Azen is another great example.
For future reference, I apologize if I come off as a name-dropper for listing Kage all the time. I've sparred with him since early 2007. We met every week at Mean Matt's to play Melee and Poker. To think that Thad, Matt, and I used to be better than him back then...he's come a long way and I'm damn proud of him. He also causes the most bullshit in the game to happen. He's the luckiest smasher you will ever meet.
Thanks for the Brawl and Melee info. It'll definitely make Melee games more entertaining to watch. (Brawl, on the other hand, I never want to see again. )
On May 08 2009 14:50 Plexa wrote: I can see it now...
Starcraft II +!!
If SCII sucks, someone probably will try to fix it. Here's to hoping it doesn't suck.
Well the difference is that Blizzard has an ambition to make a highly competitive game and have a dialogue with the professional scene, while Sakurai did everything in his power to make a game for the casual crowd. Melee is very deep but also easy to pick up which makes it enjoyable for all kinds of gamers. The reason for the removal of advanced techs and depth in Brawl was that it would be boring for casuals to get stomped online. Sakurai said something along the lines that only the top of the pyramid (referring to pros) would enjoy the game if the skill difference is too big. This statement can be found in an interview with Sakurai but I’m too lazy to look for it
I think a higher skill ceiling makes playing a game competitively much more enjoyable. Easiest comparison would be sc. It may chase away players that dabble in many different games, but for the people that just focus on smash, the gap between casual players and better players due to tech skill requirements creates a better, more developed competitive scene.
On May 30 2009 13:26 nevake wrote: I think a higher skill ceiling makes playing a game competitively much more enjoyable. Easiest comparison would be sc. It may chase away players that dabble in many different games, but for the people that just focus on smash, the gap between casual players and better players due to tech skill requirements creates a better, more developed competitive scene.
I don't consider technical ability to be what fighting games (nor strategy games) should test. If I wanted a technically challenging game, I would play Guitar Hero or something. I play Melee (and Starcraft*) despite the techskill required. Actually the only reason I don't want to play Guilty Gear is because my techskill sucks balls.
Fighting games and strategy games ... I play them for the mental aspect for sure.
Nothing wrong if you disagree. I use the first person in those sentences for a reason.
So I don't really feel like more techskill = higher skill ceiling in fighting games (or strategy games) at all. Even ignoring techskill I feel like Melee gives players more interesting choices to make though.
*This is an interesting thing here because most of what I really have a problem with in SC is stuff SC2 changes. Multitask ability is very much part of what an RTS should test--otherwise, you should play a TBS instead.
On May 30 2009 13:26 nevake wrote: I think a higher skill ceiling makes playing a game competitively much more enjoyable. Easiest comparison would be sc. It may chase away players that dabble in many different games, but for the people that just focus on smash, the gap between casual players and better players due to tech skill requirements creates a better, more developed competitive scene.
I don't consider technical ability to be what fighting games (nor strategy games) should test. If I wanted a technically challenging game, I would play Guitar Hero or something. I play Melee (and Starcraft*) despite the techskill required. Actually the only reason I don't want to play Guilty Gear is because my techskill sucks balls.
Fighting games and strategy games ... I play them for the mental aspect for sure.
Nothing wrong if you disagree. I use the first person in those sentences for a reason.
So I don't really feel like more techskill = higher skill ceiling in fighting games (or strategy games) at all. Even ignoring techskill I feel like Melee gives players more interesting choices to make though.
*This is an interesting thing here because most of what I really have a problem with in SC is stuff SC2 changes. Multitask ability is very much part of what an RTS should test--otherwise, you should play a TBS instead.
Of course techskill = higher skill ceiling in a game. This is quite self-explanatory; some techs are hard to perform but give you an advantage if you can master it. The technical aspects of melee are pretty much impossible to master. Consequently, the game has a high skill ceiling.
More important, techskill gives more options which ultimately increase the depth of the game. Depth creates a complex meta-game that is, not only is hard to master (high skill ceiling), but also lets the gameplay evolve which increases the life-span of the game.
Also, you are obviously entitled to an opinion but to say that technical ability shouldn’t be tested in a fighting game sounds pretty stupid in my opinion. In that case, you should stick to RPGs where the fights only involves strategy and no techs what so ever (unless its Paper Mario -_-)
More important, techskill gives more options which ultimately increase the depth of the game.
Not at all. Some things need to be technically challenging to give the player options (e.g. wavedashing letting you vary the timing and direction of the airdodge), but you are asserting the relationship is the other way around, which is false. If L-canceling instead involved hitting up+L+Z+Y in a certain order within 4 frames, would it make the game deeper? I very much don't think so ... but it would undoubtedly make the game more technical. The player doesn't get any more options from having that higher technical requirement. If anything I think it would be the opposite (not to mention the number of players who would be pushed toward characters like Sheik and Peach who don't benefit as much from L-canceling, and pushed away from the spacies) in this case.
(As an aside I think having to press L every time you land during an aerial makes Melee worse than it would otherwise be. The only depth I see coming from L-canceling is the possibility of attempting to mess up your opponent's L-cancel timing (light shielding + shield tilting, mainly), but that's such a small addition that I think the lower techskill requirement would make up for it).
In that case, you should stick to RPGs where the fights only involves strategy and no techs what so ever
Right ... because PvAI is so much fun.... There was a very easy type of game (TBS) for you to compare it to. But then you miss the real-time aspect of fighting games, so the comparison still fails.
When I say I don't like techskill, I mean I think executing any individual maneuver should be very easy. Timing them properly, linking them together properly, proper spacing/zoning (whatever you want to call it), reading your opponent.... There's more than just pressing 5 directions then a button to fighting games, and I like every single other bit of it more than the "press 5 directions then a button" part.
I didn't expect people to agree with me. No one ever does.
(aside 2: "techskill" is probably too broad a term for me to be using here, but I'm not sure there is a more precise one around for me to use)
EPT
)where I play very offensive if you are interested in watching them. Ally and M2K, the people who win the biggest and the most tournaments, are pretty offensive players.
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