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On November 20 2024 01:31 Billyboy wrote: Rayza's super burn about me joining the UA army was great.... when obviously you can support in many ways and I'm not even medically eligible. Maybe if he thinks it is such a burn maybe he can join the Russian army to bring peace or something? And for me not caring about nukes because I'm in Canada, is hilarious because I'm in the danger zone on the maps you see, and obviously nukes anywhere are a global problem.
But I do get his point about Russia being so much worse than the rest of Europe that Europe has so much more to lose.I just think he's forgetting that that Putin and his Power brokers only care about themselves, they have it very good and are not going to want to get vaporized.
20 Red lines crossed (at least) no nukes. Still feeling super confident.
Bolded - Funny thing is it wasn't even meant as a burn. I also sort of suspected that you are "not even medically eligible", I am pretty sure that every single person in this thread "supporting" Ukraine in this conflict have similarly valid issues with putting their actual life (c'mon I am not asking for putting your money on the line) where their mouth is. I am however glad that you lads are ready to defend Ukraine to the last Ukrainian alive.
Italic bolded - Didn't wanna hurt the feelings of Ukrainian family who lived in my home in Poland rent free for circa 9.5 month.
Bolded 2 - I explicitly stated that all Putin have to do is nuke Europe, how the f...k are you in danger zone???
Italic 2 - In shocking turn of events I agree with you on this one.
Bolded 3 - I think you are the one forgetting who are we dealing with. If by "coincidence" Putin and his best buddies will be visiting Shanghai a the time Nukes are launched.
As for anyone suggesting that any nuclear exchange between EU and Russia not including US is in any way, shape, or form close to even - I am sorry, your education system failed you. (*if he recalibrate his nukes to explode on the ground rather, than in the air, it is quite "GG No Re" setup)
On November 22 2024 02:53 Sent. wrote: I don't understand why the Russian story focuses so much on the "CIA coup" angle.
Ukrainians kicked Yanukovych out on their own. They didn't ask the US to do that for them or protect them from the consequences of that action.
Just... dunno? best Troll ever?
Can we stop this asinine bullshit logic of opinions not being valid just because one isn't on the front lines? I'm saying that as someone who IS supporting Ukraine and their soldiers directly, am in a military service, and am ready to give my life for my country or the freedom of others (such as Ukraine) if my government allowed it. Just because you're not actively being shot at doesn't make your opinions less valid.
In many cases I'd argue perhaps being able to take a step back and not be an active part can give other and equally important insights. So lets stop this gatekeeping shall we?
On November 20 2024 01:31 Billyboy wrote: Rayza's super burn about me joining the UA army was great.... when obviously you can support in many ways and I'm not even medically eligible. Maybe if he thinks it is such a burn maybe he can join the Russian army to bring peace or something? And for me not caring about nukes because I'm in Canada, is hilarious because I'm in the danger zone on the maps you see, and obviously nukes anywhere are a global problem.
But I do get his point about Russia being so much worse than the rest of Europe that Europe has so much more to lose.I just think he's forgetting that that Putin and his Power brokers only care about themselves, they have it very good and are not going to want to get vaporized.
20 Red lines crossed (at least) no nukes. Still feeling super confident.
Bolded - Funny thing is it wasn't even meant as a burn. I also sort of suspected that you are "not even medically eligible", I am pretty sure that every single person in this thread "supporting" Ukraine in this conflict have similarly valid issues with putting their actual life (c'mon I am not asking for putting your money on the line) where their mouth is. I am however glad that you lads are ready to defend Ukraine to the last Ukrainian alive.
Italic bolded - Didn't wanna hurt the feelings of Ukrainian family who lived in my home in Poland rent free for circa 9.5 month.
Bolded 2 - I explicitly stated that all Putin have to do is nuke Europe, how the f...k are you in danger zone???
Italic 2 - In shocking turn of events I agree with you on this one.
Bolded 3 - I think you are the one forgetting who are we dealing with. If by "coincidence" Putin and his best buddies will be visiting Shanghai a the time Nukes are launched.
As for anyone suggesting that any nuclear exchange between EU and Russia not including US is in any way, shape, or form close to even - I am sorry, your education system failed you. (*if he recalibrate his nukes to explode on the ground rather, than in the air, it is quite "GG No Re" setup)
On November 22 2024 02:53 Sent. wrote: I don't understand why the Russian story focuses so much on the "CIA coup" angle.
Ukrainians kicked Yanukovych out on their own. They didn't ask the US to do that for them or protect them from the consequences of that action.
Just... dunno? best Troll ever?
Can we stop this asinine bullshit logic of opinions not being valid just because you're not on the front lines? I'm saying that as someonr who IS supporting Ukraine and their soldiers directly, am in a militsry, and ready to give my life for my country or the freedom of others (such as Ukraine) if my government deems it necessary. Just because you're not actively being shot at doesn't make your opinions less valif. In many cases I'd argue perhaps being able to take a step back and not be an active part can give other and equally important insights. So lets stop this fucking gatekeeping shall we?
How do you feel about the fact that politicians didn't care to prevent this war with diplomacy and are willing to send you out without so much as a word to prevent the war? Same for Afghanistan really. The Afghan government asked for proof before handing over Osama bin Laden. Americans were like "nah, we'll invade" and then spent 20 years occupying the nation that clearly didn't care to have their propped up government in charge (since the Taliban returned to power like 5 days after they left).
After Euromaidan, it was too late. They didn't care to engage in diplomacy when it mattered about 11 years ago. If they had cared about Ukraine, you would have been sent to Crimea back in 2013. Without a word to try and prevent the war, you would have been sent to Crimea to eliminate the Russians from their base there. Would you have been OK with giving your life for that?
Politicians are scum. Your life is worth more than them. Don't fight their stupid wars for them. Do something constructive with your life.
You understand Russian senators in Canada handing out bread is not comparable, yes? The context matters a whole lot. If it's American politicians handing out bread to the Dutch after the German occupation during WWII, it probably feels pretty frickin good that someone as powerful as the US is saying they support your sovereignty and independence (although I'm sure they would prefer it from American GIs over politicians). See how much context matters and why you can't simply overlay 'how would you feel, Canada'?
Given Ukrainians had been voting to economically align with the West and their elected officials voted in on that promise did a sudden u-turn due to Russian economic black mail, I don't know how many Ukrainians were terribly upset that Americans were saying 'we support your right to choose'. I don't know. Maybe there are still some Ukrainian lurkers left and they can better inform us if they were cheesed off at McCain handing out bread.
Why not give the full quote. It makes it so much clearer. "We are here to support your just cause, the sovereign right of Ukraine to determine its own destiny freely and independently. And the destiny you seek lies in Europe." Emphasis mine.
What? Do you take this to mean McCain is meaning CIA operative support? Election rigging support? Or just run of the mill moral support? Think it's closer to the last guess given this: "the sovereign right of Ukraine to determine its own destiny freely and independently." Your quote is apropos of nothing without hard evidence of American agents organizing and coordinating the overthrow of the Ukrainian government. You don't have it because it just isn't there.
You have not produced evidence of any sort of 'interference' in the protests. "Support" is doing a lot of work here. I don't care how many times you scream your supposed hatred for Putin. You are repeating his company line. You are carrying water for Putin.
Sadly, war happens as long as one side wants it. Doesn't matter if you don't want it, if the other side wants it, it still happens.
The classic pacifist saying is "What if there is a war, and no one turns up?"
Well, what if there is a war, and only the enemy side turns up?
The sad thing here is that no matter how much we might want to not have a war, that doesn't matter if Putin wants one. And "diplomacy" in this case seems to mostly mean appeasement. Give Putin what he demands and hope that that makes him no longer want a war.
We have seen in 1938 how well that works with some dictators. And we tried that with Putin. Didn't work. He interprets trying to find a peaceful solution as weakness that can be exploited. Crimea, then Donbass, and nothing was enough to stop a full invasion.
Mate. from what I remember, at the time, the Ukrainian that was here---Davi something--was like "I'm pro EU, but I think the protests are pretty dumb, its clearly not going to work out as simple as they want it to." You reckon he changed his mind?
All war is the failure of man as a thinking animal.
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable. JFK said that, and in this case almost all politicians (EU-US-UA-RU) came together to make it impossible. The only guy who didn't was the one whose job was dependent on Russia not invading back in 2014.
It could have been resolved by listening to the Ukrainian president in 2013. Politicians chose not to because of their own fucking hubris. There is no excuse. I am not a pacifist, I am perfectly fine with murdering all of them if it means teenagers don't get sent to war to fight on their behalf.
The appeasement argument is cheap bullshit. There was a changing of the status quo that caused this war. The situation is entirely different from 1938.
Not everyone prefers direct action over slow reform. But how many on either side were super stoked to see the Russian columns barreling towards Kiev? There's the difference. Also, thinking protests are dumb is not the same thing as proof that it's Americans that are behind the whole thing.
And in line with Simberto: "The women of this country learned long ago, those without swords can still die upon them"
Diplomacy wasn't solving this no way, no how. Not without Ukrainians capitulating into a puppet state like Belarus. I suppose then there would be 'peace' after a fashion.
And what is this peace Russia offers? "Even if your war on me was just--as it was not, for were you ten times as wise you would have no right to rule me and mine for your own profit as you desired--even so, what will you say of your torches in Westfold and the children that lie dead there? And they hewed Háma's body before the gates of the Hornburg, after he was dead." Replace Westfold with Bucha and Hama's body with shooting stripped and surrendered prisoners of war and you have the idea of the sort of peace Russia offers.
Edit And, no it's not 'politicans'. It's Russia. There's no 'both sides' here. A country has the right to seek economic trade as it pleases. It's bigger neighbours have no right to invade if they don't like it.
Well then who the hell cares if it's 'fair game or not' if America did mastermind the whole Euromaidan in order to trick Russia into invading Ukraine. Maybe not one Euromaidan protestor was Ukrainian. They were all CIA agents. Who cares? There is no atom of justice. There is only the brutal reality of war.
Why rail against Putin or any politician? Who cares of people are thrown under the bus? Who cares if teenagers fight over stupid nonsense. What is absolute scum? All that is, is the brutal reality of war.
Allow everbody to keep face, and not let the sensation happy media spin the narrative you then have to follow like a dog chasing a car.
But how does this help now?
A face saving standing offer under the table?
- Withdraw from UA, apart from Crimea and one BS Donbass republic - Immediate stop of weapon delivery and immediate stop of financial support? - Russia needs not to pay reparations - Immediately drop of all Western sanctions to PUMP UP THE JAM in russian non-war economy?
You understand Russian senators in Canada handing out bread is not comparable, yes? The context matters a whole lot. If it's American politicians handing out bread to the Dutch after the German occupation during WWII, it probably feels pretty frickin good that someone as powerful as the US is saying they support your sovereignty and independence (although I'm sure they would prefer it from American GIs over politicians). See how much context matters and why you can't simply overlay 'how would you feel, Canada'?
To me, you sound like a western supremacist. You seem to think that the Americans are pure and wholesome, while the Russians are evil incarnate. This is a false dichotomy. It is a simplistic view of the world. Neither side is good or bad. They are just two sides opposed to each other. Even the Germans were not "pure evil" at the time of WW2, and neither were they "good" after the war ended. I know it must be hard, but maybe you can understand this concept in the context of Israel vs Palestine.
"They" are different from "us", but only in a superficial manner. Everybody wants to feed their children, everybody wants to secure their surroundings. This concept extends to "nation states", and that is what Russia is doing at this moment. At great cost to itself (and its neighbour), but it seems to think it is necessary. It is not only a tragedy that it has to happen in this way, especially since it could have been prevented, but comes with a terrible risk.
On November 20 2024 01:31 Billyboy wrote: Rayza's super burn about me joining the UA army was great.... when obviously you can support in many ways and I'm not even medically eligible. Maybe if he thinks it is such a burn maybe he can join the Russian army to bring peace or something? And for me not caring about nukes because I'm in Canada, is hilarious because I'm in the danger zone on the maps you see, and obviously nukes anywhere are a global problem.
But I do get his point about Russia being so much worse than the rest of Europe that Europe has so much more to lose.I just think he's forgetting that that Putin and his Power brokers only care about themselves, they have it very good and are not going to want to get vaporized.
20 Red lines crossed (at least) no nukes. Still feeling super confident.
Bolded - Funny thing is it wasn't even meant as a burn. I also sort of suspected that you are "not even medically eligible", I am pretty sure that every single person in this thread "supporting" Ukraine in this conflict have similarly valid issues with putting their actual life (c'mon I am not asking for putting your money on the line) where their mouth is. I am however glad that you lads are ready to defend Ukraine to the last Ukrainian alive.
Italic bolded - Didn't wanna hurt the feelings of Ukrainian family who lived in my home in Poland rent free for circa 9.5 month.
Bolded 2 - I explicitly stated that all Putin have to do is nuke Europe, how the f...k are you in danger zone???
Italic 2 - In shocking turn of events I agree with you on this one.
Bolded 3 - I think you are the one forgetting who are we dealing with. If by "coincidence" Putin and his best buddies will be visiting Shanghai a the time Nukes are launched.
As for anyone suggesting that any nuclear exchange between EU and Russia not including US is in any way, shape, or form close to even - I am sorry, your education system failed you. (*if he recalibrate his nukes to explode on the ground rather, than in the air, it is quite "GG No Re" setup)
On November 22 2024 02:53 Sent. wrote: I don't understand why the Russian story focuses so much on the "CIA coup" angle.
Ukrainians kicked Yanukovych out on their own. They didn't ask the US to do that for them or protect them from the consequences of that action.
Just... dunno? best Troll ever?
Can we stop this asinine bullshit logic of opinions not being valid just because you're not on the front lines? I'm saying that as someonr who IS supporting Ukraine and their soldiers directly, am in a militsry, and ready to give my life for my country or the freedom of others (such as Ukraine) if my government deems it necessary. Just because you're not actively being shot at doesn't make your opinions less valif. In many cases I'd argue perhaps being able to take a step back and not be an active part can give other and equally important insights. So lets stop this fucking gatekeeping shall we?
How do you feel about the fact that politicians didn't care to prevent this war with diplomacy and are willing to send you out without so much as a word to prevent the war? Same for Afghanistan really. The Afghan government asked for proof before handing over Osama bin Laden. Americans were like "nah, we'll invade" and then spent 20 years occupying the nation that clearly didn't care to have their propped up government in charge (since the Taliban returned to power like 5 days after they left).
After Euromaidan, it was too late. They didn't care to engage in diplomacy when it mattered about 11 years ago. If they had cared about Ukraine, you would have been sent to Crimea back in 2013. Without a word to try and prevent the war, you would have been sent to Crimea to eliminate the Russians from their base there. Would you have been OK with giving your life for that?
Politicians are scum. Your life is worth more than them. Don't fight their stupid wars for them. Do something constructive with your life.
I've made my thoughts on backbone-less politicians very clear before. I don't think anyone could have reasonably stopped the invasion from happening in the first place, Russia doesn't give an iota about diplomacy. Europe really did try to get on their good side for a long time, trying to get close through good-will and trading, and places like Germany basically made themselves completely dependant on Russian gas.
But politician's lackluster aid following the invasion have definitively helped extend the war beyond reason, and it's only going to get worse when US pulls out because of their own traitor in chief.
But I would never give my life for a politician. I'd give it for the country and its people. Ukraine is a sovereign country and deserves to be free of tyranny
Well you are flat out wrong, but nice hasty generalization and hyperbole.
When did I mention pure evil anything? When have I argued Americans are pure and wholesome? It is you who has been throwing out terms like 'absolute scum'.
All I said is the context in which one has foreign politicians on the ground handing out bread changes how positive or negative you might interpret that event. Do you disagree with that assertion? I chose an unambiguous example to see if you are even willing to agree to a very basic claim. Can you agree that the Dutch example would likely be seen as benign at worst but more likely positive? Then, given USA's history with Canada is nothing like Russia/ USSR's history in Ukraine, you can see the comparison is not analogous as far as how any Canadian would 'feel' were it to happen to us.
I notice you have walked away from providing evidence that America was behind Euromaidan in any meaningful way beyond saying 'we support your sovereign choice"
Ahtisaari held talks with envoys from the five permanent members of the UN security council in February 2012. He said that during those discussions, the Russian ambassador, Vitaly Churkin, laid out a three-point plan, which included a proposal for Assad to cede power at some point after peace talks had started between the regime and the opposition.
But he said that the US, Britain and France were so convinced that the Syrian dictator was about to fall, they ignored the proposal.
It was only after their attempt at diplomacy was ignored that the Russians decided to support Assad militarily... Incidentally, although this is speculation, I think this is a major reason why the US meddled in Ukraine. They were upset they didn't get to finish their regime change plans...
A former commander of NATO’s forces in Europe, Clark claims he met a senior military officer in Washington in November 2001 who told him the Bush administration was planning to attack Iraq first before taking action against Syria, Lebanon, Libya, Iran, Somalia and Sudan.
On November 22 2024 19:17 Falling wrote: Well you are flat out wrong, but nice hasty generalization and hyperbole.
When did I mention pure evil anything? When have I argued Americans are pure and wholesome? It is you who has been throwing out terms like 'absolute scum'.
All I said is the context in which one has foreign politicians on the ground handing out bread changes how positive or negative you might interpret that event. Do you disagree with that assertion? I chose an unambiguous example to see if you are even willing to agree to a very basic claim. Can you agree that the Dutch example would likely be seen as benign at worst but more likely positive? Then, given USA's history with Canada is nothing like Russia/ USSR's history in Ukraine, you can see the comparison is not analogous as far as how any Canadian would 'feel' were it to happen to us.
I notice you have walked away from providing evidence that America was behind Euromaidan in any meaningful way beyond saying 'we support your sovereign choice"
You only see one as positive and the other as negative because of your own biases. For other people, it might be the other way around. Russia would see the change I described in Canada as a positive thing. I don't give two shits about "Dutch" or whatever. I don't believe in nations, just like I don't believe in religion. I do believe in the fact that millions of people are moved by both though, and they make things happen on behalf of them, so I have to navigate that.
I don't care to prove anything about US meddling in Ukraine. I've already said I just don't know the extent of it. I know there was more going on than just handing out bread though. It doesn't really matter anyway, because what matters is how it is perceived in Russia.
When Russia meddled in the US elections, no matter how benign it may have been, it was considered a grave violation. Media went absolutely wild. The guy who was elected is still labelled as a traitor and Russian puppet today, even though he now got a majority of the votes. You think it was any different in Russia when they saw the American senator on the streets in Kyiv?
Would the Dutch people see it as a negative thing if American politicians arrived and handed out bread after the Germans were kicked out? Or is that just my Western bias? Nazis made some mean strudel after all.
I don't care to prove anything about US meddling in Ukraine.
No, you just like to operate as though it were true. But maybe you should rethink your premise if it's so hard to find evidence. Maybe your own bias is at play.
On November 22 2024 18:01 vova_ wrote: Mate. from what I remember, at the time, the Ukrainian that was here---Davi something--was like "I'm pro EU, but I think the protests are pretty dumb, its clearly not going to work out as simple as they want it to." You reckon he changed his mind?
All war is the failure of man as a thinking animal.
Those who make peaceful revolution impossible, make violent revolution inevitable. JFK said that, and in this case almost all politicians (EU-US-UA-RU) came together to make it impossible. The only guy who didn't was the one whose job was dependent on Russia not invading back in 2014.
It could have been resolved by listening to the Ukrainian president in 2013. Politicians chose not to because of their own fucking hubris. There is no excuse. I am not a pacifist, I am perfectly fine with murdering all of them if it means teenagers don't get sent to war to fight on their behalf.
The appeasement argument is cheap bullshit. There was a changing of the status quo that caused this war. The situation is entirely different from 1938.
By 2013 Russia had already invaded Chechnya and Georgia.
On November 22 2024 19:28 Falling wrote: Would the Dutch people see it as a negative thing if American politicians arrived and handed out bread after the Netherlands after the Germans were kicked out?
Yanukovich was elected. He was not "occupying" anything.
No, you just like to operate as though it were true. But maybe you should rethink your premise if it's so hard to find evidence. Maybe your own bias is at play.
As I said, what matters is how it is perceived.
My only bias is one that seeks a path towards preventing war without diminishing the worthiness of any group of people.
You understand Russian senators in Canada handing out bread is not comparable, yes? The context matters a whole lot. If it's American politicians handing out bread to the Dutch after the German occupation during WWII, it probably feels pretty frickin good that someone as powerful as the US is saying they support your sovereignty and independence (although I'm sure they would prefer it from American GIs over politicians). See how much context matters and why you can't simply overlay 'how would you feel, Canada'?
To me, you sound like a western supremacist. You seem to think that the Americans are pure and wholesome, while the Russians are evil incarnate. This is a false dichotomy. It is a simplistic view of the world. Neither side is good or bad. They are just two sides opposed to each other. Even the Germans were not "pure evil" at the time of WW2, and neither were they "good" after the war ended. I know it must be hard, but maybe you can understand this concept in the context of Israel vs Palestine.
"They" are different from "us", but only in a superficial manner. Everybody wants to feed their children, everybody wants to secure their surroundings. This concept extends to "nation states", and that is what Russia is doing at this moment. At great cost to itself (and its neighbour), but it seems to think it is necessary. It is not only a tragedy that it has to happen in this way, especially since it could have been prevented, but comes with a terrible risk.
People don't think Russia is evil because of an overly simplistic view of the world. They think it's evil because of the war crimes. Russia started WW2 alongside the Nazis in order to expand the Russian empire and enslave Eastern Europe and the only thing that has changed since then is their vision for their colonies and the world they're building has gotten worse.
If Russia could just act like a normal fucking country for a few years then people would let it go but it literally can't. It never broke out of the 19th century mindset and is desperately trying to cling onto an empire that has ceased to be relevant.
EPT
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