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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. |
On September 20 2024 05:02 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 01:58 Magic Powers wrote:On September 20 2024 01:46 RvB wrote:On September 20 2024 00:23 Magic Powers wrote:On September 20 2024 00:13 RvB wrote:On September 19 2024 21:39 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 19 2024 21:31 Magic Powers wrote:On September 19 2024 21:25 Manit0u wrote:On September 19 2024 21:19 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 19 2024 21:16 Magic Powers wrote:So far 2 children have died out of 12 total casualties during the first attack (>16%). In the second attack 20 people were killed, no information on their identities yet. A total of 3250 have been wounded during both attacks. The attacks took place in homes, cars, grocery stores and cafes where civilians generally reside. The tools used were pagers, walkie-talkies and solar equipment. The explosions happened in various areas. "On Tuesday, at least 12 people were killed, including two children, with some 2,800 people wounded when hundreds of pagers used by Hezbollah members began detonating wherever they happened to be — in homes, cars, at grocery stores and in cafes. The following day, in a second wave of attacks, at least 20 people were killed and 450 were wounded when walkie-talkies and solar equipment used by Hezbollah exploded in Beirut and multiple parts of Lebanon." https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/hezbollah-pagers-explosions-1.7326969Can we safely assume that these children were innocent, yes or no? At least the population of Lebanon now knows what happens to enemies of Israel. They're probably too terrified to join Hezbollah now. Almost like that was the entire reason for the attack. To spread fear among the civilian population. If anything this only creates more people who'll join their ranks. They love their martyrs after all and civilians getting hurt in the process only makes it so they'd be even more willing to go against Israel now. If you want to stop terrorists you can't go directly against them because that's mostly futile exercise as history shows. You need to figure out a way to get on the good side with the general populace so that terrorists lose their support. I suspect Jock was being sarcastic and playing the role of pro-Israel propagandists. It's been well established that this kind of attack does not cause a terrorist organization to shrink. I wasn't being sarcastic per se. I genuinely think that this was the objective for Israel. I can't think what else it could be. Blowing up the pagers to 'cripple infrastructure' seems like a weak excuse more than an actual reason to do this. Obviously its not going to do anything to the ability of Hezbollah to fight. Why else do it? They attacked one of Hezbollahs main communication devices. The military benefits are quite obvious. It destroys their ability to communicate effectively directly and indirectly. Directly because the pagers are destroyed and indirectly because they don't know what method they can trust. It's also a precise way to target members of Hezbollah because nobody else uses pagers anymore. Furthermore it sows doubt about other technology and weapons they've imported. What other supply chains are compromised? The reason you propose seems much more unlikely to me. Who even uses pagers nowadays? Regular people don't use them anymore but Hezbollah does. Nasrallah thought them a safe alternative to mobile phones since you can't track them. Then how is blowing them up going to put fear into citizens if they're not the ones with the exploding devices. If Israel wants to do such a thing they have much better tools at their disposal. Plenty of people who don't even live in anywhere near Lebanon are already expressing their fear of using electronic devices unrelated to this attack. This has definitely terrorized the Lebanese population and anyone arguing otherwise is just being willfully ignorant. That it has made some civilians in Lebanon afraid to use electronical devices does not mean that it was the objective. If your objective is to terrorize civilians you rig a device that civilians use like a mobile phone. Not walky talkies and pagers that were ordered by Hezbollah. As to the deaths caused by the attack it seems to be mostly members of Hezbollah: At least 38 Hezbollah members have been killed since Tuesday afternoon, the group says, the deadliest period for the group since the Israel-Hamas war began on October 7.
The Iran-backed militants did not provide details on the specific circumstances of the deaths or whether they were caused by the communication device explosions or occurred on the battlefield.
But given Lebanon’s health ministry has announced five battlefield deaths since Tuesday – unrelated to the wireless device attacks and normally indicating the death of Hezbollah fighters — that points to a total of 33 Hezbollah fighters being killed in the attacks targeting wireless devices.
There has been no official confirmation of the number of Hezbollah fighters killed in the explosions, which hit pagers and walkie-talkies.
Lebanon’s health ministry has said 37 people were killed in the attacks, and does not distinguish between civilians and combatants. www.cnn.com I don't care what the objective is. Israel has stated the objective to destroy Hamas, and yet they've killed many civilians. Intent and actions don't always match. This pager attack has factually, objectively terrorized the Lebanese population. That's the point I'm making. I also don't care if most of the fatalities are Hezbollah. An attack has to be justified, and in my book this one isn't an example of a justified attack. It did not stifle Hezbollah's military capability. Especially their leadership is said to be largely unaffected, because they apparently used older devices that weren't tampered with. I was responding to Jocks post where he asks what other objective there could be. If you don't care then fine by me but don't respond to me. Your point is also trash. If you look at it that way every military attack is a terrorist attack. Or do you think artillery fire, machine gun fire, and bombs dropped by planes don't terrorize civilians? Show nested quote +I also don't care if most of the fatalities are Hezbollah. An attack has to be justified, and in my book this one isn't an example of a justified attack. It did not stifle Hezbollah's military capability. Especially their leadership is said to be largely unaffected, because they apparently used older devices that weren't tampered with. The amount of civilians is one of the main critiques on Israels conduct in Gaza. Yet now suddenly you don't care. An attack has to be justified but the amount of civilian casualties play a huge role in determining if it is. That should not be controversial. That it did not stifle Hezbollah's military capability is patently false. Nasrallah called it a major blow in his speech. That's consistent with other reports we get from the media. Show nested quote +In a televised public address, Nasrallah blamed Israel for the pager and walkie-talkie attacks of Tuesday and Wednesday, which he said constituted “an unprecedented massacre.”
“There is no doubt that we have been subjected to a major security and military blow that is unprecedented in the history of the resistance and unprecedented in the history of Lebanon,” Nasrallah said in his address, filmed at an undisclosed location. www.timesofisrael.comEngaging in a discussion with you was a mistake so this will be my last response to you.
Military action obviously does not constitute a terrorist attack. Blowing up thousands of devices in the middle of the population on the other hand would be immediately declared a terrorist attafck if it happened in Israel. Yet we're all required to hold our breath when it's done by Israel in Lebanon. This is a double standard that I'm participating in right now because it effectively holds a mirror to apologists of Netanyahu's criminal administration. You're not seeing the hyprocisy? That's not my problem. I'm just pointing it out, so try not to shoot the messenger so readily.
"The amount of civilians is one of the main critiques on Israels conduct in Gaza. Yet now suddenly you don't care. An attack has to be justified but the amount of civilian casualties play a huge role in determining if it is. That should not be controversial. That it did not stifle Hezbollah's military capability is patently false. Nasrallah called it a major blow in his speech. That's consistent with other reports we get from the media."
Two things. Firstly, I don't know what you're referring to. I always argued that every innocent death is too much. Other people see it differently, but I'm not other people. My position has always been the same.
Secondly, Nasrallah explicitly stated that this is not a major blow to them. He said it's unprecedented, but he also said that this won't stop their activities in a meaningful capacity. You misinterpreted his words because you left out relevant context.
We can just think this problem through ourselves. Can a communication system be fixed? Yes. Are the fatalities a significant blow to Hezbollah? No. There you go, answered it. Hezbollah will be doing just fine after this attack, nothing of significance was accomplished.
Instead now there's even more ammunition that can be used against Israel. Now people call them a terrorist state, it's all over the left-wing media. Nice job Netanyahu. Burn every bridge won't ya?
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On September 20 2024 05:17 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 05:02 RvB wrote:On September 20 2024 01:58 Magic Powers wrote:On September 20 2024 01:46 RvB wrote:On September 20 2024 00:23 Magic Powers wrote:On September 20 2024 00:13 RvB wrote:On September 19 2024 21:39 Jockmcplop wrote:On September 19 2024 21:31 Magic Powers wrote:On September 19 2024 21:25 Manit0u wrote:On September 19 2024 21:19 Jockmcplop wrote:
[quote]
At least the population of Lebanon now knows what happens to enemies of Israel. They're probably too terrified to join Hezbollah now.
Almost like that was the entire reason for the attack. To spread fear among the civilian population. If anything this only creates more people who'll join their ranks. They love their martyrs after all and civilians getting hurt in the process only makes it so they'd be even more willing to go against Israel now. If you want to stop terrorists you can't go directly against them because that's mostly futile exercise as history shows. You need to figure out a way to get on the good side with the general populace so that terrorists lose their support. I suspect Jock was being sarcastic and playing the role of pro-Israel propagandists. It's been well established that this kind of attack does not cause a terrorist organization to shrink. I wasn't being sarcastic per se. I genuinely think that this was the objective for Israel. I can't think what else it could be. Blowing up the pagers to 'cripple infrastructure' seems like a weak excuse more than an actual reason to do this. Obviously its not going to do anything to the ability of Hezbollah to fight. Why else do it? They attacked one of Hezbollahs main communication devices. The military benefits are quite obvious. It destroys their ability to communicate effectively directly and indirectly. Directly because the pagers are destroyed and indirectly because they don't know what method they can trust. It's also a precise way to target members of Hezbollah because nobody else uses pagers anymore. Furthermore it sows doubt about other technology and weapons they've imported. What other supply chains are compromised? The reason you propose seems much more unlikely to me. Who even uses pagers nowadays? Regular people don't use them anymore but Hezbollah does. Nasrallah thought them a safe alternative to mobile phones since you can't track them. Then how is blowing them up going to put fear into citizens if they're not the ones with the exploding devices. If Israel wants to do such a thing they have much better tools at their disposal. Plenty of people who don't even live in anywhere near Lebanon are already expressing their fear of using electronic devices unrelated to this attack. This has definitely terrorized the Lebanese population and anyone arguing otherwise is just being willfully ignorant. That it has made some civilians in Lebanon afraid to use electronical devices does not mean that it was the objective. If your objective is to terrorize civilians you rig a device that civilians use like a mobile phone. Not walky talkies and pagers that were ordered by Hezbollah. As to the deaths caused by the attack it seems to be mostly members of Hezbollah: At least 38 Hezbollah members have been killed since Tuesday afternoon, the group says, the deadliest period for the group since the Israel-Hamas war began on October 7.
The Iran-backed militants did not provide details on the specific circumstances of the deaths or whether they were caused by the communication device explosions or occurred on the battlefield.
But given Lebanon’s health ministry has announced five battlefield deaths since Tuesday – unrelated to the wireless device attacks and normally indicating the death of Hezbollah fighters — that points to a total of 33 Hezbollah fighters being killed in the attacks targeting wireless devices.
There has been no official confirmation of the number of Hezbollah fighters killed in the explosions, which hit pagers and walkie-talkies.
Lebanon’s health ministry has said 37 people were killed in the attacks, and does not distinguish between civilians and combatants. www.cnn.com I don't care what the objective is. Israel has stated the objective to destroy Hamas, and yet they've killed many civilians. Intent and actions don't always match. This pager attack has factually, objectively terrorized the Lebanese population. That's the point I'm making. I also don't care if most of the fatalities are Hezbollah. An attack has to be justified, and in my book this one isn't an example of a justified attack. It did not stifle Hezbollah's military capability. Especially their leadership is said to be largely unaffected, because they apparently used older devices that weren't tampered with. I was responding to Jocks post where he asks what other objective there could be. If you don't care then fine by me but don't respond to me. Your point is also trash. If you look at it that way every military attack is a terrorist attack. Or do you think artillery fire, machine gun fire, and bombs dropped by planes don't terrorize civilians? I also don't care if most of the fatalities are Hezbollah. An attack has to be justified, and in my book this one isn't an example of a justified attack. It did not stifle Hezbollah's military capability. Especially their leadership is said to be largely unaffected, because they apparently used older devices that weren't tampered with. The amount of civilians is one of the main critiques on Israels conduct in Gaza. Yet now suddenly you don't care. An attack has to be justified but the amount of civilian casualties play a huge role in determining if it is. That should not be controversial. That it did not stifle Hezbollah's military capability is patently false. Nasrallah called it a major blow in his speech. That's consistent with other reports we get from the media. In a televised public address, Nasrallah blamed Israel for the pager and walkie-talkie attacks of Tuesday and Wednesday, which he said constituted “an unprecedented massacre.”
“There is no doubt that we have been subjected to a major security and military blow that is unprecedented in the history of the resistance and unprecedented in the history of Lebanon,” Nasrallah said in his address, filmed at an undisclosed location. www.timesofisrael.comEngaging in a discussion with you was a mistake so this will be my last response to you. Military action obviously does not constitute a terrorist attack. Blowing up thousands of devices in the middle of the population on the other hand would be immediately declared a terrorist attafck if it happened in Israel. Yet we're all required to hold our breath when it's done by Israel in Lebanon. This is a double standard that I'm participating in right now because it effectively holds a mirror to apologists of Netanyahu's criminal administration. You're not seeing the hyprocisy? That's not my problem. I'm just pointing it out, so try not to shoot the messenger so readily. "The amount of civilians is one of the main critiques on Israels conduct in Gaza. Yet now suddenly you don't care. An attack has to be justified but the amount of civilian casualties play a huge role in determining if it is. That should not be controversial. That it did not stifle Hezbollah's military capability is patently false. Nasrallah called it a major blow in his speech. That's consistent with other reports we get from the media." Two things. Firstly, I don't know what you're referring to. I always argued that every innocent death is too much. Other people see it differently, but I'm not other people. My position has always been the same. Secondly, Nasrallah explicitly stated that this is not a major blow to them. He said it's unprecedented, but he also said that this won't stop their activities in a meaningful capacity. You misinterpreted his words because you left out relevant context. We can just think this problem through ourselves. Can a communication system be fixed? Yes. Are the fatalities a significant blow to Hezbollah? No. There you go, answered it. Hezbollah will be doing just fine after this attack, nothing of significance was accomplished. Instead now there's even more ammunition that can be used against Israel. Now people call them a terrorist state, it's all over the left-wing media. Nice job Netanyahu. Burn every bridge won't ya?
I'm not sure there was much of a bridge to burn between Netanyahu and the left wing media tbh.
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Why do you think this wasn't a meaningful strike? Israel targeted their communications systems. They were already reduced to using pagers. What should they do now to organize their attacks? Telegraphs? Imagine the disarray in the organization when they can't trust any of their equipment. Israel also neutralized a great number of Hizbollah fighters. Even though most of them aren't dead, I think Hizbollah as a whole was significantly neutered in this attack.
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On September 20 2024 05:32 Elroi wrote:
Why do you think this wasn't a meaningful strike? Israel targeted their communications systems. They were already reduced to using pagers. What should they do now to organize their attacks? Telegraphs? Imagine the disarray in the organization when they can't trust any of their equipment. Israel also neutralized a great number of Hizbollah fighters. Even though most of them aren't dead, I think Hizbollah as a whole was significantly neutered in this attack.
I need to see proof that this will stop Hezbollah from killing Israelis in a meaningful way. How exactly is that gonna happen? Are Israelis being told to return to their homes? Not that I know. Doesn't seem safer than before. So what exactly was accomplished?
If you think blown up pagers are going to change anything about that, you're not giving these terrorists much credit. They're intelligent human beings like you and I. They work closely together with other terrorist groups. They have states funding them. This problem will be solved, and their attacks won't stop, especially the missile attacks - which don't require a paging system. Does that surprise anyone? Since when do we assume terrorist groups are incompetent?
They'll replace their equipment, trace back the origin of the tampered pagers and continue on with their regular activities.
The number of terrorists being killed is completely insignificant, this is just a small dent. They're assumed to be at least 20-40k strong with several tens of thousands of reservists ready.
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United States41470 Posts
On September 20 2024 04:52 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 04:48 KwarK wrote:On September 20 2024 04:16 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 04:11 Oldwiseman44 wrote:On September 20 2024 03:53 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 03:48 Oldwiseman44 wrote:On September 20 2024 03:43 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 03:37 Oldwiseman44 wrote:On September 20 2024 03:34 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 03:31 Oldwiseman44 wrote:
[quote]
I think you need to go back and reread. I said that if Israel was Russia, they would do exactly what Russia has done when they can easily win. And we all know Israel has not done this. Your effort is so low you won't even read the short posts.
If you can't see that Iran is the one pulling the strings for Hamas, with the obvious connections, then there is no way to go. And quite frankly my post was not for you or too you. I'm not looking to get into an internet fite. I get you love them and want to start them with anyone who does not agree with you. But I'm looking for intelligent discussions with people with varying view points. Where has Russia removed a people and replaced it with Russians? Here is a easy one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_TatarsWhat do you suspect the Russians are doing when they bus Ukrainian children back to Russia? This does not say that the Crimean Tatars have been ethnically cleansed from Crimea. If there are children there to bus back to Russia then they're probably still here, otherwise it would be hard to bus them. My apologies I thought you were aware of the major genocides considering your talk about them. Russia and the USSR have committed some of the most and the biggest. The deportation of the Crimean Tatars was the ethnic cleansing and the cultural genocide of at least 191,044 Crimean Tatars which was carried out by the Soviet authorities from 18 to 20 May 1944, supervised by Lavrentiy Beria, and ordered by the Soviet leader Joseph Stalin. Within those three days, the NKVD used cattle trains to deport the Crimean Tatars, mostly women, children, and the elderly, even Communist Party members and Red Army members, to the Uzbek SSR, several thousand kilometres away. Multiple scholars have recognised the deportation as a genocide.[176][177] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocidesThe deportation of the Chechens and Ingush, or Ardakhar Genocide, was the Soviet forced transfer of the whole of the Vainakh (Chechen and Ingush) populations of the North Caucasus to Central Asia on 23 February 1944, during World War II. The expulsion was ordered by NKVD chief Lavrentiy Beria after approval by Soviet leader Joseph Stalin, as a part of a Soviet forced settlement program and population transfer that affected several million members of ethnic minorities in the Soviet Union between the 1930s and the 1950s.[166][167][168][169] The European Parliament officially recognised the deportations as genocide in 2004.[170][171] Now a days the Russian move is slightly different but same goal and much closer to what Iran is currently doing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChechnyaChechen separatists continued to fight Russian troops and conduct terror attacks.[46][page needed] In October 2002, 40–50 Chechen rebels seized a Moscow theater and took about 900 civilians hostage.[30] The crisis ended with 117 hostages and up to 50 rebels dead, mostly due to an unknown aerosol pumped into the building by Russian special forces to incapacitate the people inside.[47][48][49]
In response to these attacks, Russia tightened its grip on Chechnya and expanded its anti-terrorist operations throughout the region. Russia installed a pro-Russian Chechen regime. In 2003, a referendum was held on a constitution that reintegrated Chechnya within Russia but provided limited autonomy. According to the Chechen government, the referendum passed with 95.5% of the votes and almost 80% turnout.[50] The Economist was skeptical of the results, arguing that "few outside the Kremlin regard the referendum as fair".[51]
In September 2004, separatist rebels occupied a school in the town of Beslan, North Ossetia, demanding recognition of the independence of Chechnya and a Russian withdrawal. 1,100 people (including 777 children) were taken hostage. The attack lasted three days, resulting in the deaths of over 331 people, including 186 children.[30][52][53][54] After the 2004 school siege, Russian president Vladimir Putin announced sweeping security and political reforms, sealing borders in the Caucasus region and revealing plans to give the central government more power. He also vowed to take tougher action against domestic terrorism, including preemptive strikes against Chechen separatists.[30] In 2005 and 2006, separatist leaders Aslan Maskhadov and Shamil Basayev were killed.
Since 2007, Chechnya has been governed by Ramzan Kadyrov.[55] Kadyrov's rule has been characterized by high-level corruption, a poor human rights record, widespread use of torture, and a growing cult of personality.[56][57] Allegations of anti-gay purges in Chechnya were initially reported on 1 April 2017.
In April 2009, Russia ended its counter-terrorism operation and pulled out the bulk of its army.[58] The insurgency in the North Caucasus continued even after this date. The Caucasus Emirate had fully adopted the tenets of a Salafist jihadist group through its strict adherence to the Sunni Hanbali obedience to the literal interpretation of the Quran and the Sunnah.[59]
The Chechen government has been outspoken in its support for the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, where a Chechen military force, the Kadyrovtsy, which is under Kadyrov's personal command, has played a leading role, notably in the Siege of Mariupol.[60] Meanwhile, a substantial number of Chechen separatists have allied themselves to the Ukrainian cause and are fighting a mutual Russian enemy in the Donbas.[61] In June 2022, the US State Department advised citizens not to travel to Chechnya, due to terrorism, kidnapping, and risk of civil unrest.[62] 1944 is a different time my friend, back then it was much easier to do ethnic cleansings. For example Israel did one around that time, called the Nakba. Today it is much harder to accomplish, which is why, as you point out, strategies are "slightly different but same goal", both in Russia and in Israel. Contrary to your claim that Russia does it easily, from your own claims they want to do one in Chechnya since 2002 and Chechens are still there. I was not claiming a genocide, that is your words. But most consider what Russia is doing now genocidal. The only ones that do not are Russia's allies, one of which is Iran. I was claiming that Israel could walk in with their army, take over, install a proxy government. They don't want too. This is not a war of conquest for them, nor did they even start this. Kind of back to your blindness because of point 4 in Cuddlys list. As long as you are stuck to that framing as the only truth you are missing no much nuance, which makes it inaccurate and uninteresting. If you wanted to go through my first post, actually read it, consider it and then come back with a list of why I'm wrong. With you know counter points and evidence that would be great. But as I mentioned earlier I'm not interested in being dragged into a internet fite you love. It is one of the things I like least about this thread some of the most interesting thoughtful people are gone because of you. It kind of boggles my mind that you continue to post like this without consequence. Not that you are doing anything person with me (yet) but just what has been the point of any of your responses? You don't even know what you are arguing against because you have not read it. It is a strange proudness of ignorance that I'm not found of. Well if you're not claiming genocide/ethnic cleansing then you shouldn't offer these as a response when I ask you when Russia has removed a people and replaced it with Russians. You should say "There are no such situations". Then we can continue the conversation, and I tell you that even with power imbalance it is very hard in the current day to remove a people from a place, much harder than to just rule over them and generally treat them like shit. This is true for Russia and it's true for Israel, and it's actually even more true for Israel than it is for Russia because Israel is dependant on other countries in a much more direct way than Russia is. So the goal of Israel, which is not to rule over Palestinians but to remove them, is much harder to accomplish, which is why they're not doing it fast. We've solved that issue. There are over 2 million Arabs living in Israel, around as many as live in Gaza. The idea that Israel is absolutely opposed to people being both a Palestinian and an Israeli citizen would be news to them. I think you might be the one who thinks they should not exist, not Israel. Though I guess that they're not strictly speaking ruled by Israel because Israel is a democracy and they have full citizen rights so they're not really ruled by anyone. 2 million Arabs living in Israel doesn't threaten the status of Israel as a Jewish state. The entirety of Palestine joining Israel would. That is why Israel is okay with ruling over Israeli Arabs, but doesn't just annex Palestine. Based on what I remember you posting when you were good there's no way you don't know this.
You've gone from "the goal of Israel is not to rule over Palestinians but to remove them" to "Israel is okay with ruling over Israeli Arabs" in minutes with no recognition of the contradictions there.
I agree that Israel would not like a one state solution, though there are an awful lot more reasons than the impact on voting blocs. But it's really weird to me that you can truly passionately believe that Israel, which is a multiethnic state that has a large Palestinian Arab minority, has zero willingness to give Palestinian Arabs citizenship and believes they must all be cleansed. That's observably untrue. When called out on it you recognized that it was observably untrue but then nothing changed. You should take a minute to reflect on your last two posts.
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On September 20 2024 05:52 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 04:52 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 04:48 KwarK wrote:On September 20 2024 04:16 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 04:11 Oldwiseman44 wrote:On September 20 2024 03:53 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 03:48 Oldwiseman44 wrote:On September 20 2024 03:43 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 03:37 Oldwiseman44 wrote:On September 20 2024 03:34 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
Where has Russia removed a people and replaced it with Russians? Here is a easy one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_TatarsWhat do you suspect the Russians are doing when they bus Ukrainian children back to Russia? This does not say that the Crimean Tatars have been ethnically cleansed from Crimea. If there are children there to bus back to Russia then they're probably still here, otherwise it would be hard to bus them. My apologies I thought you were aware of the major genocides considering your talk about them. Russia and the USSR have committed some of the most and the biggest. The deportation of the Crimean Tatars was the ethnic cleansing and the cultural genocide of at least 191,044 Crimean Tatars which was carried out by the Soviet authorities from 18 to 20 May 1944, supervised by Lavrentiy Beria, and ordered by the Soviet leader Joseph Stalin. Within those three days, the NKVD used cattle trains to deport the Crimean Tatars, mostly women, children, and the elderly, even Communist Party members and Red Army members, to the Uzbek SSR, several thousand kilometres away. Multiple scholars have recognised the deportation as a genocide.[176][177] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocidesThe deportation of the Chechens and Ingush, or Ardakhar Genocide, was the Soviet forced transfer of the whole of the Vainakh (Chechen and Ingush) populations of the North Caucasus to Central Asia on 23 February 1944, during World War II. The expulsion was ordered by NKVD chief Lavrentiy Beria after approval by Soviet leader Joseph Stalin, as a part of a Soviet forced settlement program and population transfer that affected several million members of ethnic minorities in the Soviet Union between the 1930s and the 1950s.[166][167][168][169] The European Parliament officially recognised the deportations as genocide in 2004.[170][171] Now a days the Russian move is slightly different but same goal and much closer to what Iran is currently doing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChechnyaChechen separatists continued to fight Russian troops and conduct terror attacks.[46][page needed] In October 2002, 40–50 Chechen rebels seized a Moscow theater and took about 900 civilians hostage.[30] The crisis ended with 117 hostages and up to 50 rebels dead, mostly due to an unknown aerosol pumped into the building by Russian special forces to incapacitate the people inside.[47][48][49]
In response to these attacks, Russia tightened its grip on Chechnya and expanded its anti-terrorist operations throughout the region. Russia installed a pro-Russian Chechen regime. In 2003, a referendum was held on a constitution that reintegrated Chechnya within Russia but provided limited autonomy. According to the Chechen government, the referendum passed with 95.5% of the votes and almost 80% turnout.[50] The Economist was skeptical of the results, arguing that "few outside the Kremlin regard the referendum as fair".[51]
In September 2004, separatist rebels occupied a school in the town of Beslan, North Ossetia, demanding recognition of the independence of Chechnya and a Russian withdrawal. 1,100 people (including 777 children) were taken hostage. The attack lasted three days, resulting in the deaths of over 331 people, including 186 children.[30][52][53][54] After the 2004 school siege, Russian president Vladimir Putin announced sweeping security and political reforms, sealing borders in the Caucasus region and revealing plans to give the central government more power. He also vowed to take tougher action against domestic terrorism, including preemptive strikes against Chechen separatists.[30] In 2005 and 2006, separatist leaders Aslan Maskhadov and Shamil Basayev were killed.
Since 2007, Chechnya has been governed by Ramzan Kadyrov.[55] Kadyrov's rule has been characterized by high-level corruption, a poor human rights record, widespread use of torture, and a growing cult of personality.[56][57] Allegations of anti-gay purges in Chechnya were initially reported on 1 April 2017.
In April 2009, Russia ended its counter-terrorism operation and pulled out the bulk of its army.[58] The insurgency in the North Caucasus continued even after this date. The Caucasus Emirate had fully adopted the tenets of a Salafist jihadist group through its strict adherence to the Sunni Hanbali obedience to the literal interpretation of the Quran and the Sunnah.[59]
The Chechen government has been outspoken in its support for the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, where a Chechen military force, the Kadyrovtsy, which is under Kadyrov's personal command, has played a leading role, notably in the Siege of Mariupol.[60] Meanwhile, a substantial number of Chechen separatists have allied themselves to the Ukrainian cause and are fighting a mutual Russian enemy in the Donbas.[61] In June 2022, the US State Department advised citizens not to travel to Chechnya, due to terrorism, kidnapping, and risk of civil unrest.[62] 1944 is a different time my friend, back then it was much easier to do ethnic cleansings. For example Israel did one around that time, called the Nakba. Today it is much harder to accomplish, which is why, as you point out, strategies are "slightly different but same goal", both in Russia and in Israel. Contrary to your claim that Russia does it easily, from your own claims they want to do one in Chechnya since 2002 and Chechens are still there. I was not claiming a genocide, that is your words. But most consider what Russia is doing now genocidal. The only ones that do not are Russia's allies, one of which is Iran. I was claiming that Israel could walk in with their army, take over, install a proxy government. They don't want too. This is not a war of conquest for them, nor did they even start this. Kind of back to your blindness because of point 4 in Cuddlys list. As long as you are stuck to that framing as the only truth you are missing no much nuance, which makes it inaccurate and uninteresting. If you wanted to go through my first post, actually read it, consider it and then come back with a list of why I'm wrong. With you know counter points and evidence that would be great. But as I mentioned earlier I'm not interested in being dragged into a internet fite you love. It is one of the things I like least about this thread some of the most interesting thoughtful people are gone because of you. It kind of boggles my mind that you continue to post like this without consequence. Not that you are doing anything person with me (yet) but just what has been the point of any of your responses? You don't even know what you are arguing against because you have not read it. It is a strange proudness of ignorance that I'm not found of. Well if you're not claiming genocide/ethnic cleansing then you shouldn't offer these as a response when I ask you when Russia has removed a people and replaced it with Russians. You should say "There are no such situations". Then we can continue the conversation, and I tell you that even with power imbalance it is very hard in the current day to remove a people from a place, much harder than to just rule over them and generally treat them like shit. This is true for Russia and it's true for Israel, and it's actually even more true for Israel than it is for Russia because Israel is dependant on other countries in a much more direct way than Russia is. So the goal of Israel, which is not to rule over Palestinians but to remove them, is much harder to accomplish, which is why they're not doing it fast. We've solved that issue. There are over 2 million Arabs living in Israel, around as many as live in Gaza. The idea that Israel is absolutely opposed to people being both a Palestinian and an Israeli citizen would be news to them. I think you might be the one who thinks they should not exist, not Israel. Though I guess that they're not strictly speaking ruled by Israel because Israel is a democracy and they have full citizen rights so they're not really ruled by anyone. 2 million Arabs living in Israel doesn't threaten the status of Israel as a Jewish state. The entirety of Palestine joining Israel would. That is why Israel is okay with ruling over Israeli Arabs, but doesn't just annex Palestine. Based on what I remember you posting when you were good there's no way you don't know this. You've gone from "the goal of Israel is not to rule over Palestinians but to remove them" to "Israel is okay with ruling over Israeli Arabs" in minutes with no recognition of the contradictions there.
That's because it was so easy to explain why it isn't contradictory that it took less than minutes.
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On September 20 2024 05:32 Elroi wrote:
Why do you think this wasn't a meaningful strike? Israel targeted their communications systems. They were already reduced to using pagers. What should they do now to organize their attacks? Telegraphs? Imagine the disarray in the organization when they can't trust any of their equipment. Israel also neutralized a great number of Hizbollah fighters. Even though most of them aren't dead, I think Hizbollah as a whole was significantly neutered in this attack.
The attacks are also a revelation of how deeply the supply chain and probably the organisation as a whole is compromised. Mossad is gonna Mossad.
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United States41470 Posts
On September 20 2024 05:56 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 05:52 KwarK wrote:On September 20 2024 04:52 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 04:48 KwarK wrote:On September 20 2024 04:16 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 04:11 Oldwiseman44 wrote:On September 20 2024 03:53 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 03:48 Oldwiseman44 wrote:On September 20 2024 03:43 Nebuchad wrote:This does not say that the Crimean Tatars have been ethnically cleansed from Crimea. If there are children there to bus back to Russia then they're probably still here, otherwise it would be hard to bus them. My apologies I thought you were aware of the major genocides considering your talk about them. Russia and the USSR have committed some of the most and the biggest. The deportation of the Crimean Tatars was the ethnic cleansing and the cultural genocide of at least 191,044 Crimean Tatars which was carried out by the Soviet authorities from 18 to 20 May 1944, supervised by Lavrentiy Beria, and ordered by the Soviet leader Joseph Stalin. Within those three days, the NKVD used cattle trains to deport the Crimean Tatars, mostly women, children, and the elderly, even Communist Party members and Red Army members, to the Uzbek SSR, several thousand kilometres away. Multiple scholars have recognised the deportation as a genocide.[176][177] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocidesThe deportation of the Chechens and Ingush, or Ardakhar Genocide, was the Soviet forced transfer of the whole of the Vainakh (Chechen and Ingush) populations of the North Caucasus to Central Asia on 23 February 1944, during World War II. The expulsion was ordered by NKVD chief Lavrentiy Beria after approval by Soviet leader Joseph Stalin, as a part of a Soviet forced settlement program and population transfer that affected several million members of ethnic minorities in the Soviet Union between the 1930s and the 1950s.[166][167][168][169] The European Parliament officially recognised the deportations as genocide in 2004.[170][171] Now a days the Russian move is slightly different but same goal and much closer to what Iran is currently doing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChechnyaChechen separatists continued to fight Russian troops and conduct terror attacks.[46][page needed] In October 2002, 40–50 Chechen rebels seized a Moscow theater and took about 900 civilians hostage.[30] The crisis ended with 117 hostages and up to 50 rebels dead, mostly due to an unknown aerosol pumped into the building by Russian special forces to incapacitate the people inside.[47][48][49]
In response to these attacks, Russia tightened its grip on Chechnya and expanded its anti-terrorist operations throughout the region. Russia installed a pro-Russian Chechen regime. In 2003, a referendum was held on a constitution that reintegrated Chechnya within Russia but provided limited autonomy. According to the Chechen government, the referendum passed with 95.5% of the votes and almost 80% turnout.[50] The Economist was skeptical of the results, arguing that "few outside the Kremlin regard the referendum as fair".[51]
In September 2004, separatist rebels occupied a school in the town of Beslan, North Ossetia, demanding recognition of the independence of Chechnya and a Russian withdrawal. 1,100 people (including 777 children) were taken hostage. The attack lasted three days, resulting in the deaths of over 331 people, including 186 children.[30][52][53][54] After the 2004 school siege, Russian president Vladimir Putin announced sweeping security and political reforms, sealing borders in the Caucasus region and revealing plans to give the central government more power. He also vowed to take tougher action against domestic terrorism, including preemptive strikes against Chechen separatists.[30] In 2005 and 2006, separatist leaders Aslan Maskhadov and Shamil Basayev were killed.
Since 2007, Chechnya has been governed by Ramzan Kadyrov.[55] Kadyrov's rule has been characterized by high-level corruption, a poor human rights record, widespread use of torture, and a growing cult of personality.[56][57] Allegations of anti-gay purges in Chechnya were initially reported on 1 April 2017.
In April 2009, Russia ended its counter-terrorism operation and pulled out the bulk of its army.[58] The insurgency in the North Caucasus continued even after this date. The Caucasus Emirate had fully adopted the tenets of a Salafist jihadist group through its strict adherence to the Sunni Hanbali obedience to the literal interpretation of the Quran and the Sunnah.[59]
The Chechen government has been outspoken in its support for the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, where a Chechen military force, the Kadyrovtsy, which is under Kadyrov's personal command, has played a leading role, notably in the Siege of Mariupol.[60] Meanwhile, a substantial number of Chechen separatists have allied themselves to the Ukrainian cause and are fighting a mutual Russian enemy in the Donbas.[61] In June 2022, the US State Department advised citizens not to travel to Chechnya, due to terrorism, kidnapping, and risk of civil unrest.[62] 1944 is a different time my friend, back then it was much easier to do ethnic cleansings. For example Israel did one around that time, called the Nakba. Today it is much harder to accomplish, which is why, as you point out, strategies are "slightly different but same goal", both in Russia and in Israel. Contrary to your claim that Russia does it easily, from your own claims they want to do one in Chechnya since 2002 and Chechens are still there. I was not claiming a genocide, that is your words. But most consider what Russia is doing now genocidal. The only ones that do not are Russia's allies, one of which is Iran. I was claiming that Israel could walk in with their army, take over, install a proxy government. They don't want too. This is not a war of conquest for them, nor did they even start this. Kind of back to your blindness because of point 4 in Cuddlys list. As long as you are stuck to that framing as the only truth you are missing no much nuance, which makes it inaccurate and uninteresting. If you wanted to go through my first post, actually read it, consider it and then come back with a list of why I'm wrong. With you know counter points and evidence that would be great. But as I mentioned earlier I'm not interested in being dragged into a internet fite you love. It is one of the things I like least about this thread some of the most interesting thoughtful people are gone because of you. It kind of boggles my mind that you continue to post like this without consequence. Not that you are doing anything person with me (yet) but just what has been the point of any of your responses? You don't even know what you are arguing against because you have not read it. It is a strange proudness of ignorance that I'm not found of. Well if you're not claiming genocide/ethnic cleansing then you shouldn't offer these as a response when I ask you when Russia has removed a people and replaced it with Russians. You should say "There are no such situations". Then we can continue the conversation, and I tell you that even with power imbalance it is very hard in the current day to remove a people from a place, much harder than to just rule over them and generally treat them like shit. This is true for Russia and it's true for Israel, and it's actually even more true for Israel than it is for Russia because Israel is dependant on other countries in a much more direct way than Russia is. So the goal of Israel, which is not to rule over Palestinians but to remove them, is much harder to accomplish, which is why they're not doing it fast. We've solved that issue. There are over 2 million Arabs living in Israel, around as many as live in Gaza. The idea that Israel is absolutely opposed to people being both a Palestinian and an Israeli citizen would be news to them. I think you might be the one who thinks they should not exist, not Israel. Though I guess that they're not strictly speaking ruled by Israel because Israel is a democracy and they have full citizen rights so they're not really ruled by anyone. 2 million Arabs living in Israel doesn't threaten the status of Israel as a Jewish state. The entirety of Palestine joining Israel would. That is why Israel is okay with ruling over Israeli Arabs, but doesn't just annex Palestine. Based on what I remember you posting when you were good there's no way you don't know this. You've gone from "the goal of Israel is not to rule over Palestinians but to remove them" to "Israel is okay with ruling over Israeli Arabs" in minutes with no recognition of the contradictions there. That's because it was so easy to explain why it isn't contradictory that it took less than minutes.
"Israel plans to kill or drive out all of the Palestinians. I know that's true because I know the one thing Israel refuses to do is give Arabs citizenship and so that means by definition that they're planning to kill or drive them out.
Except for those 2 million Arab citizens. But they're different for reasons that I do not plan to explain because to do so would be too easy."
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On September 20 2024 06:06 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 05:56 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 05:52 KwarK wrote:On September 20 2024 04:52 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 04:48 KwarK wrote:On September 20 2024 04:16 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 04:11 Oldwiseman44 wrote:On September 20 2024 03:53 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 03:48 Oldwiseman44 wrote:On September 20 2024 03:43 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
This does not say that the Crimean Tatars have been ethnically cleansed from Crimea. If there are children there to bus back to Russia then they're probably still here, otherwise it would be hard to bus them. My apologies I thought you were aware of the major genocides considering your talk about them. Russia and the USSR have committed some of the most and the biggest. The deportation of the Crimean Tatars was the ethnic cleansing and the cultural genocide of at least 191,044 Crimean Tatars which was carried out by the Soviet authorities from 18 to 20 May 1944, supervised by Lavrentiy Beria, and ordered by the Soviet leader Joseph Stalin. Within those three days, the NKVD used cattle trains to deport the Crimean Tatars, mostly women, children, and the elderly, even Communist Party members and Red Army members, to the Uzbek SSR, several thousand kilometres away. Multiple scholars have recognised the deportation as a genocide.[176][177] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocidesThe deportation of the Chechens and Ingush, or Ardakhar Genocide, was the Soviet forced transfer of the whole of the Vainakh (Chechen and Ingush) populations of the North Caucasus to Central Asia on 23 February 1944, during World War II. The expulsion was ordered by NKVD chief Lavrentiy Beria after approval by Soviet leader Joseph Stalin, as a part of a Soviet forced settlement program and population transfer that affected several million members of ethnic minorities in the Soviet Union between the 1930s and the 1950s.[166][167][168][169] The European Parliament officially recognised the deportations as genocide in 2004.[170][171] Now a days the Russian move is slightly different but same goal and much closer to what Iran is currently doing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChechnyaChechen separatists continued to fight Russian troops and conduct terror attacks.[46][page needed] In October 2002, 40–50 Chechen rebels seized a Moscow theater and took about 900 civilians hostage.[30] The crisis ended with 117 hostages and up to 50 rebels dead, mostly due to an unknown aerosol pumped into the building by Russian special forces to incapacitate the people inside.[47][48][49]
In response to these attacks, Russia tightened its grip on Chechnya and expanded its anti-terrorist operations throughout the region. Russia installed a pro-Russian Chechen regime. In 2003, a referendum was held on a constitution that reintegrated Chechnya within Russia but provided limited autonomy. According to the Chechen government, the referendum passed with 95.5% of the votes and almost 80% turnout.[50] The Economist was skeptical of the results, arguing that "few outside the Kremlin regard the referendum as fair".[51]
In September 2004, separatist rebels occupied a school in the town of Beslan, North Ossetia, demanding recognition of the independence of Chechnya and a Russian withdrawal. 1,100 people (including 777 children) were taken hostage. The attack lasted three days, resulting in the deaths of over 331 people, including 186 children.[30][52][53][54] After the 2004 school siege, Russian president Vladimir Putin announced sweeping security and political reforms, sealing borders in the Caucasus region and revealing plans to give the central government more power. He also vowed to take tougher action against domestic terrorism, including preemptive strikes against Chechen separatists.[30] In 2005 and 2006, separatist leaders Aslan Maskhadov and Shamil Basayev were killed.
Since 2007, Chechnya has been governed by Ramzan Kadyrov.[55] Kadyrov's rule has been characterized by high-level corruption, a poor human rights record, widespread use of torture, and a growing cult of personality.[56][57] Allegations of anti-gay purges in Chechnya were initially reported on 1 April 2017.
In April 2009, Russia ended its counter-terrorism operation and pulled out the bulk of its army.[58] The insurgency in the North Caucasus continued even after this date. The Caucasus Emirate had fully adopted the tenets of a Salafist jihadist group through its strict adherence to the Sunni Hanbali obedience to the literal interpretation of the Quran and the Sunnah.[59]
The Chechen government has been outspoken in its support for the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, where a Chechen military force, the Kadyrovtsy, which is under Kadyrov's personal command, has played a leading role, notably in the Siege of Mariupol.[60] Meanwhile, a substantial number of Chechen separatists have allied themselves to the Ukrainian cause and are fighting a mutual Russian enemy in the Donbas.[61] In June 2022, the US State Department advised citizens not to travel to Chechnya, due to terrorism, kidnapping, and risk of civil unrest.[62] 1944 is a different time my friend, back then it was much easier to do ethnic cleansings. For example Israel did one around that time, called the Nakba. Today it is much harder to accomplish, which is why, as you point out, strategies are "slightly different but same goal", both in Russia and in Israel. Contrary to your claim that Russia does it easily, from your own claims they want to do one in Chechnya since 2002 and Chechens are still there. I was not claiming a genocide, that is your words. But most consider what Russia is doing now genocidal. The only ones that do not are Russia's allies, one of which is Iran. I was claiming that Israel could walk in with their army, take over, install a proxy government. They don't want too. This is not a war of conquest for them, nor did they even start this. Kind of back to your blindness because of point 4 in Cuddlys list. As long as you are stuck to that framing as the only truth you are missing no much nuance, which makes it inaccurate and uninteresting. If you wanted to go through my first post, actually read it, consider it and then come back with a list of why I'm wrong. With you know counter points and evidence that would be great. But as I mentioned earlier I'm not interested in being dragged into a internet fite you love. It is one of the things I like least about this thread some of the most interesting thoughtful people are gone because of you. It kind of boggles my mind that you continue to post like this without consequence. Not that you are doing anything person with me (yet) but just what has been the point of any of your responses? You don't even know what you are arguing against because you have not read it. It is a strange proudness of ignorance that I'm not found of. Well if you're not claiming genocide/ethnic cleansing then you shouldn't offer these as a response when I ask you when Russia has removed a people and replaced it with Russians. You should say "There are no such situations". Then we can continue the conversation, and I tell you that even with power imbalance it is very hard in the current day to remove a people from a place, much harder than to just rule over them and generally treat them like shit. This is true for Russia and it's true for Israel, and it's actually even more true for Israel than it is for Russia because Israel is dependant on other countries in a much more direct way than Russia is. So the goal of Israel, which is not to rule over Palestinians but to remove them, is much harder to accomplish, which is why they're not doing it fast. We've solved that issue. There are over 2 million Arabs living in Israel, around as many as live in Gaza. The idea that Israel is absolutely opposed to people being both a Palestinian and an Israeli citizen would be news to them. I think you might be the one who thinks they should not exist, not Israel. Though I guess that they're not strictly speaking ruled by Israel because Israel is a democracy and they have full citizen rights so they're not really ruled by anyone. 2 million Arabs living in Israel doesn't threaten the status of Israel as a Jewish state. The entirety of Palestine joining Israel would. That is why Israel is okay with ruling over Israeli Arabs, but doesn't just annex Palestine. Based on what I remember you posting when you were good there's no way you don't know this. You've gone from "the goal of Israel is not to rule over Palestinians but to remove them" to "Israel is okay with ruling over Israeli Arabs" in minutes with no recognition of the contradictions there. That's because it was so easy to explain why it isn't contradictory that it took less than minutes. "Israel plans to kill or drive out all of the Palestinians. I know that's true because I know the one thing Israel refuses to do is give Arabs citizenship and so that means by definition that they're planning to kill or drive them out. Except for those 2 million Arab citizens. But they're different for reasons that I do not plan to explain because to do so would be too easy."
Ok Kwark have a nice day.
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On September 20 2024 04:43 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 04:35 Oldwiseman44 wrote:On September 20 2024 04:16 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 04:11 Oldwiseman44 wrote:On September 20 2024 03:53 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 03:48 Oldwiseman44 wrote:On September 20 2024 03:43 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 03:37 Oldwiseman44 wrote:On September 20 2024 03:34 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 03:31 Oldwiseman44 wrote:
[quote]
I think you need to go back and reread. I said that if Israel was Russia, they would do exactly what Russia has done when they can easily win. And we all know Israel has not done this. Your effort is so low you won't even read the short posts.
If you can't see that Iran is the one pulling the strings for Hamas, with the obvious connections, then there is no way to go. And quite frankly my post was not for you or too you. I'm not looking to get into an internet fite. I get you love them and want to start them with anyone who does not agree with you. But I'm looking for intelligent discussions with people with varying view points. Where has Russia removed a people and replaced it with Russians? Here is a easy one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_TatarsWhat do you suspect the Russians are doing when they bus Ukrainian children back to Russia? This does not say that the Crimean Tatars have been ethnically cleansed from Crimea. If there are children there to bus back to Russia then they're probably still here, otherwise it would be hard to bus them. My apologies I thought you were aware of the major genocides considering your talk about them. Russia and the USSR have committed some of the most and the biggest. The deportation of the Crimean Tatars was the ethnic cleansing and the cultural genocide of at least 191,044 Crimean Tatars which was carried out by the Soviet authorities from 18 to 20 May 1944, supervised by Lavrentiy Beria, and ordered by the Soviet leader Joseph Stalin. Within those three days, the NKVD used cattle trains to deport the Crimean Tatars, mostly women, children, and the elderly, even Communist Party members and Red Army members, to the Uzbek SSR, several thousand kilometres away. Multiple scholars have recognised the deportation as a genocide.[176][177] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocidesThe deportation of the Chechens and Ingush, or Ardakhar Genocide, was the Soviet forced transfer of the whole of the Vainakh (Chechen and Ingush) populations of the North Caucasus to Central Asia on 23 February 1944, during World War II. The expulsion was ordered by NKVD chief Lavrentiy Beria after approval by Soviet leader Joseph Stalin, as a part of a Soviet forced settlement program and population transfer that affected several million members of ethnic minorities in the Soviet Union between the 1930s and the 1950s.[166][167][168][169] The European Parliament officially recognised the deportations as genocide in 2004.[170][171] Now a days the Russian move is slightly different but same goal and much closer to what Iran is currently doing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChechnyaChechen separatists continued to fight Russian troops and conduct terror attacks.[46][page needed] In October 2002, 40–50 Chechen rebels seized a Moscow theater and took about 900 civilians hostage.[30] The crisis ended with 117 hostages and up to 50 rebels dead, mostly due to an unknown aerosol pumped into the building by Russian special forces to incapacitate the people inside.[47][48][49]
In response to these attacks, Russia tightened its grip on Chechnya and expanded its anti-terrorist operations throughout the region. Russia installed a pro-Russian Chechen regime. In 2003, a referendum was held on a constitution that reintegrated Chechnya within Russia but provided limited autonomy. According to the Chechen government, the referendum passed with 95.5% of the votes and almost 80% turnout.[50] The Economist was skeptical of the results, arguing that "few outside the Kremlin regard the referendum as fair".[51]
In September 2004, separatist rebels occupied a school in the town of Beslan, North Ossetia, demanding recognition of the independence of Chechnya and a Russian withdrawal. 1,100 people (including 777 children) were taken hostage. The attack lasted three days, resulting in the deaths of over 331 people, including 186 children.[30][52][53][54] After the 2004 school siege, Russian president Vladimir Putin announced sweeping security and political reforms, sealing borders in the Caucasus region and revealing plans to give the central government more power. He also vowed to take tougher action against domestic terrorism, including preemptive strikes against Chechen separatists.[30] In 2005 and 2006, separatist leaders Aslan Maskhadov and Shamil Basayev were killed.
Since 2007, Chechnya has been governed by Ramzan Kadyrov.[55] Kadyrov's rule has been characterized by high-level corruption, a poor human rights record, widespread use of torture, and a growing cult of personality.[56][57] Allegations of anti-gay purges in Chechnya were initially reported on 1 April 2017.
In April 2009, Russia ended its counter-terrorism operation and pulled out the bulk of its army.[58] The insurgency in the North Caucasus continued even after this date. The Caucasus Emirate had fully adopted the tenets of a Salafist jihadist group through its strict adherence to the Sunni Hanbali obedience to the literal interpretation of the Quran and the Sunnah.[59]
The Chechen government has been outspoken in its support for the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, where a Chechen military force, the Kadyrovtsy, which is under Kadyrov's personal command, has played a leading role, notably in the Siege of Mariupol.[60] Meanwhile, a substantial number of Chechen separatists have allied themselves to the Ukrainian cause and are fighting a mutual Russian enemy in the Donbas.[61] In June 2022, the US State Department advised citizens not to travel to Chechnya, due to terrorism, kidnapping, and risk of civil unrest.[62] 1944 is a different time my friend, back then it was much easier to do ethnic cleansings. For example Israel did one around that time, called the Nakba. Today it is much harder to accomplish, which is why, as you point out, strategies are "slightly different but same goal", both in Russia and in Israel. Contrary to your claim that Russia does it easily, from your own claims they want to do one in Chechnya since 2002 and Chechens are still there. I was not claiming a genocide, that is your words. But most consider what Russia is doing now genocidal. The only ones that do not are Russia's allies, one of which is Iran. I was claiming that Israel could walk in with their army, take over, install a proxy government. They don't want too. This is not a war of conquest for them, nor did they even start this. Kind of back to your blindness because of point 4 in Cuddlys list. As long as you are stuck to that framing as the only truth you are missing no much nuance, which makes it inaccurate and uninteresting. If you wanted to go through my first post, actually read it, consider it and then come back with a list of why I'm wrong. With you know counter points and evidence that would be great. But as I mentioned earlier I'm not interested in being dragged into a internet fite you love. It is one of the things I like least about this thread some of the most interesting thoughtful people are gone because of you. It kind of boggles my mind that you continue to post like this without consequence. Not that you are doing anything person with me (yet) but just what has been the point of any of your responses? You don't even know what you are arguing against because you have not read it. It is a strange proudness of ignorance that I'm not found of. Well if you're not claiming genocide/ethnic cleansing then you shouldn't offer these as a response when I ask you when Russia has removed a people and replaced it with Russians. You should say "There are no such situations". Then we can continue the conversation, and I tell you that even with power imbalance it is very hard in the current day to remove a people from a place, much harder than to just rule over them and generally treat them like shit. This is true for Russia and it's true for Israel, and it's actually even more true for Israel than it is for Russia because Israel is dependant on other countries in a much more direct way than Russia is. So the goal of Israel, which is not to rule over Palestinians but to remove them, is much harder to accomplish, which is why they're not doing it fast. We've solved that issue. Why would I say there are not such situations when there were. Had you said current I would have went there, and you can see this pattern in Chechnya, Georgia, their involvement in Syria, their support of every current army/ government committing genocide in Africa and when their current actions are considered genocidal more universally their Israel? As a person who is certain Israel is committing genocide, why do you think this is the only genocide Russia is against? Iran's proxy armies are also blatantly geocidal both in rhetoric and actions, so I'm not sure even what your point is. How would Iran be Ukraine? lets not forget for a long time Russia "wasn't fighting in Ukraine" that was the various peoples republics. I agree that Israel is dependent on democracies and there for has to follow rules that their leader and Russia do not. Would you agree that Iran is support Russian Genocide? And would you say they are supporting Hamas and Hezbollah's genocidal intentions? If not why? Do you agree that Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Houthis are proxy armies for Iran? If not why? You're saying that Israel can't be Russia in the analogy because if Israel was Russia there would be no Palestine, because when Russia wants to crush a group that it has a power imbalance over that happens quickly and as such Palestine would already be gone. None of the places and/or people you're offering as examples of Russia doing it quickly are gone. So clearly, when Russia is Russia, it doesn't happen quickly. What happens quickly is ruling over the people of a place, not removing the people from the place. Your counterargument fails. That's all. I don't see how this is arguable, this seems just objectively true. Which probably explains why you're trying to talk about other things.
No I did not say your strawman. When I said no Palestine I meant the way there is no Chechnya any more and the way Donbas is now a "independent" republic. Which Israel could do as easy as Russia if they wanted to. It would not lead to the end of their existence as a Jewish state.
Not to mention you have done the move where you ignore the entire post context and pull out the one thread you think is weak, strawman it and hope the rest falls apart or people start arguing your argument instead of the one presented. the big issue is you have done a poor job and have not even made a compelling argument in those regards.
To the intended target of my original post, my goal was not to say that Israel are the good guys or innocent in the way that Ukraine is. They are not, the situation is different, they have the power and they have used it. My goal was to point out some of similarities and do a thought experiment on what people think Ukraine should do if they had the power to do so. Or what their country would do and what they should do?
I think people would come up with some really interesting things, hopefully stuff I have not considered or wrote it is way I reconsider. My thought is also that instead of people thinking of Israel as some satan they would think of how their country could be not so difficultly pressed to have citizens act and say things are similar to how some of the Israelis have acted and things some of them have said.
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On September 20 2024 06:25 Oldwiseman44 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 04:43 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 04:35 Oldwiseman44 wrote:On September 20 2024 04:16 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 04:11 Oldwiseman44 wrote:On September 20 2024 03:53 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 03:48 Oldwiseman44 wrote:On September 20 2024 03:43 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 03:37 Oldwiseman44 wrote:On September 20 2024 03:34 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
Where has Russia removed a people and replaced it with Russians? Here is a easy one. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_TatarsWhat do you suspect the Russians are doing when they bus Ukrainian children back to Russia? This does not say that the Crimean Tatars have been ethnically cleansed from Crimea. If there are children there to bus back to Russia then they're probably still here, otherwise it would be hard to bus them. My apologies I thought you were aware of the major genocides considering your talk about them. Russia and the USSR have committed some of the most and the biggest. The deportation of the Crimean Tatars was the ethnic cleansing and the cultural genocide of at least 191,044 Crimean Tatars which was carried out by the Soviet authorities from 18 to 20 May 1944, supervised by Lavrentiy Beria, and ordered by the Soviet leader Joseph Stalin. Within those three days, the NKVD used cattle trains to deport the Crimean Tatars, mostly women, children, and the elderly, even Communist Party members and Red Army members, to the Uzbek SSR, several thousand kilometres away. Multiple scholars have recognised the deportation as a genocide.[176][177] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocidesThe deportation of the Chechens and Ingush, or Ardakhar Genocide, was the Soviet forced transfer of the whole of the Vainakh (Chechen and Ingush) populations of the North Caucasus to Central Asia on 23 February 1944, during World War II. The expulsion was ordered by NKVD chief Lavrentiy Beria after approval by Soviet leader Joseph Stalin, as a part of a Soviet forced settlement program and population transfer that affected several million members of ethnic minorities in the Soviet Union between the 1930s and the 1950s.[166][167][168][169] The European Parliament officially recognised the deportations as genocide in 2004.[170][171] Now a days the Russian move is slightly different but same goal and much closer to what Iran is currently doing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChechnyaChechen separatists continued to fight Russian troops and conduct terror attacks.[46][page needed] In October 2002, 40–50 Chechen rebels seized a Moscow theater and took about 900 civilians hostage.[30] The crisis ended with 117 hostages and up to 50 rebels dead, mostly due to an unknown aerosol pumped into the building by Russian special forces to incapacitate the people inside.[47][48][49]
In response to these attacks, Russia tightened its grip on Chechnya and expanded its anti-terrorist operations throughout the region. Russia installed a pro-Russian Chechen regime. In 2003, a referendum was held on a constitution that reintegrated Chechnya within Russia but provided limited autonomy. According to the Chechen government, the referendum passed with 95.5% of the votes and almost 80% turnout.[50] The Economist was skeptical of the results, arguing that "few outside the Kremlin regard the referendum as fair".[51]
In September 2004, separatist rebels occupied a school in the town of Beslan, North Ossetia, demanding recognition of the independence of Chechnya and a Russian withdrawal. 1,100 people (including 777 children) were taken hostage. The attack lasted three days, resulting in the deaths of over 331 people, including 186 children.[30][52][53][54] After the 2004 school siege, Russian president Vladimir Putin announced sweeping security and political reforms, sealing borders in the Caucasus region and revealing plans to give the central government more power. He also vowed to take tougher action against domestic terrorism, including preemptive strikes against Chechen separatists.[30] In 2005 and 2006, separatist leaders Aslan Maskhadov and Shamil Basayev were killed.
Since 2007, Chechnya has been governed by Ramzan Kadyrov.[55] Kadyrov's rule has been characterized by high-level corruption, a poor human rights record, widespread use of torture, and a growing cult of personality.[56][57] Allegations of anti-gay purges in Chechnya were initially reported on 1 April 2017.
In April 2009, Russia ended its counter-terrorism operation and pulled out the bulk of its army.[58] The insurgency in the North Caucasus continued even after this date. The Caucasus Emirate had fully adopted the tenets of a Salafist jihadist group through its strict adherence to the Sunni Hanbali obedience to the literal interpretation of the Quran and the Sunnah.[59]
The Chechen government has been outspoken in its support for the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, where a Chechen military force, the Kadyrovtsy, which is under Kadyrov's personal command, has played a leading role, notably in the Siege of Mariupol.[60] Meanwhile, a substantial number of Chechen separatists have allied themselves to the Ukrainian cause and are fighting a mutual Russian enemy in the Donbas.[61] In June 2022, the US State Department advised citizens not to travel to Chechnya, due to terrorism, kidnapping, and risk of civil unrest.[62] 1944 is a different time my friend, back then it was much easier to do ethnic cleansings. For example Israel did one around that time, called the Nakba. Today it is much harder to accomplish, which is why, as you point out, strategies are "slightly different but same goal", both in Russia and in Israel. Contrary to your claim that Russia does it easily, from your own claims they want to do one in Chechnya since 2002 and Chechens are still there. I was not claiming a genocide, that is your words. But most consider what Russia is doing now genocidal. The only ones that do not are Russia's allies, one of which is Iran. I was claiming that Israel could walk in with their army, take over, install a proxy government. They don't want too. This is not a war of conquest for them, nor did they even start this. Kind of back to your blindness because of point 4 in Cuddlys list. As long as you are stuck to that framing as the only truth you are missing no much nuance, which makes it inaccurate and uninteresting. If you wanted to go through my first post, actually read it, consider it and then come back with a list of why I'm wrong. With you know counter points and evidence that would be great. But as I mentioned earlier I'm not interested in being dragged into a internet fite you love. It is one of the things I like least about this thread some of the most interesting thoughtful people are gone because of you. It kind of boggles my mind that you continue to post like this without consequence. Not that you are doing anything person with me (yet) but just what has been the point of any of your responses? You don't even know what you are arguing against because you have not read it. It is a strange proudness of ignorance that I'm not found of. Well if you're not claiming genocide/ethnic cleansing then you shouldn't offer these as a response when I ask you when Russia has removed a people and replaced it with Russians. You should say "There are no such situations". Then we can continue the conversation, and I tell you that even with power imbalance it is very hard in the current day to remove a people from a place, much harder than to just rule over them and generally treat them like shit. This is true for Russia and it's true for Israel, and it's actually even more true for Israel than it is for Russia because Israel is dependant on other countries in a much more direct way than Russia is. So the goal of Israel, which is not to rule over Palestinians but to remove them, is much harder to accomplish, which is why they're not doing it fast. We've solved that issue. Why would I say there are not such situations when there were. Had you said current I would have went there, and you can see this pattern in Chechnya, Georgia, their involvement in Syria, their support of every current army/ government committing genocide in Africa and when their current actions are considered genocidal more universally their Israel? As a person who is certain Israel is committing genocide, why do you think this is the only genocide Russia is against? Iran's proxy armies are also blatantly geocidal both in rhetoric and actions, so I'm not sure even what your point is. How would Iran be Ukraine? lets not forget for a long time Russia "wasn't fighting in Ukraine" that was the various peoples republics. I agree that Israel is dependent on democracies and there for has to follow rules that their leader and Russia do not. Would you agree that Iran is support Russian Genocide? And would you say they are supporting Hamas and Hezbollah's genocidal intentions? If not why? Do you agree that Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Houthis are proxy armies for Iran? If not why? You're saying that Israel can't be Russia in the analogy because if Israel was Russia there would be no Palestine, because when Russia wants to crush a group that it has a power imbalance over that happens quickly and as such Palestine would already be gone. None of the places and/or people you're offering as examples of Russia doing it quickly are gone. So clearly, when Russia is Russia, it doesn't happen quickly. What happens quickly is ruling over the people of a place, not removing the people from the place. Your counterargument fails. That's all. I don't see how this is arguable, this seems just objectively true. Which probably explains why you're trying to talk about other things. No I did not say your strawman. When I said no Palestine I meant the way there is no Chechnya any more and the way Donbas is now a "independent" republic. Which Israel could do as easy as Russia if they wanted to. It would not lead to the end of their existence as a Jewish state.
Israel being a democracy with a relatively small population, if they give citizen status to the Palestinians like Russia does with Chechnya, this will lead to an equal number of Arabs and Jews with voting rights (7.2 million Jews for 6.7 million Arabs, and this doesn't account for the right to return of palestinian refugees). There is no shot that those populations vote to maintain a Jewish State, not every Israeli Jew agrees with the far right. If you plan to not give them full citizenship, then congratulations, the thing that you're saying ought to be happening is already happening, as the West Bank currently does live under military occupation of Israel, and unless there's a drastic change in world politics ("unless" not being the greatest word here as I think a change is quite likely to happen), Gaza will be too in the near future.
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United States41470 Posts
Egypt has a huge population, Gazans wouldn’t be a huge change in voting bloc power, and they also don’t want anything to do with annexing Gaza. It’s been on offer. The population of Gaza is a poison pill to any state that takes them in.
The reluctance to add Gazans to your population has absolutely nothing to do with voting blocs.
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On September 20 2024 06:40 KwarK wrote:
Egypt has a huge population, Gazans wouldn’t be a huge change in voting bloc power, and they also don’t want anything to do with annexing Gaza. It’s been on offer. The population of Gaza is a poison pill to any state that takes them in.
The reluctance to add Gazans to your population has absolutely nothing to do with voting blocs.
Would they be a poison pill to the state of Palestine?
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On September 20 2024 06:37 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 06:25 Oldwiseman44 wrote:On September 20 2024 04:43 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 04:35 Oldwiseman44 wrote:On September 20 2024 04:16 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 04:11 Oldwiseman44 wrote:On September 20 2024 03:53 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 03:48 Oldwiseman44 wrote:On September 20 2024 03:43 Nebuchad wrote:This does not say that the Crimean Tatars have been ethnically cleansed from Crimea. If there are children there to bus back to Russia then they're probably still here, otherwise it would be hard to bus them. My apologies I thought you were aware of the major genocides considering your talk about them. Russia and the USSR have committed some of the most and the biggest. The deportation of the Crimean Tatars was the ethnic cleansing and the cultural genocide of at least 191,044 Crimean Tatars which was carried out by the Soviet authorities from 18 to 20 May 1944, supervised by Lavrentiy Beria, and ordered by the Soviet leader Joseph Stalin. Within those three days, the NKVD used cattle trains to deport the Crimean Tatars, mostly women, children, and the elderly, even Communist Party members and Red Army members, to the Uzbek SSR, several thousand kilometres away. Multiple scholars have recognised the deportation as a genocide.[176][177] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocidesThe deportation of the Chechens and Ingush, or Ardakhar Genocide, was the Soviet forced transfer of the whole of the Vainakh (Chechen and Ingush) populations of the North Caucasus to Central Asia on 23 February 1944, during World War II. The expulsion was ordered by NKVD chief Lavrentiy Beria after approval by Soviet leader Joseph Stalin, as a part of a Soviet forced settlement program and population transfer that affected several million members of ethnic minorities in the Soviet Union between the 1930s and the 1950s.[166][167][168][169] The European Parliament officially recognised the deportations as genocide in 2004.[170][171] Now a days the Russian move is slightly different but same goal and much closer to what Iran is currently doing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChechnyaChechen separatists continued to fight Russian troops and conduct terror attacks.[46][page needed] In October 2002, 40–50 Chechen rebels seized a Moscow theater and took about 900 civilians hostage.[30] The crisis ended with 117 hostages and up to 50 rebels dead, mostly due to an unknown aerosol pumped into the building by Russian special forces to incapacitate the people inside.[47][48][49]
In response to these attacks, Russia tightened its grip on Chechnya and expanded its anti-terrorist operations throughout the region. Russia installed a pro-Russian Chechen regime. In 2003, a referendum was held on a constitution that reintegrated Chechnya within Russia but provided limited autonomy. According to the Chechen government, the referendum passed with 95.5% of the votes and almost 80% turnout.[50] The Economist was skeptical of the results, arguing that "few outside the Kremlin regard the referendum as fair".[51]
In September 2004, separatist rebels occupied a school in the town of Beslan, North Ossetia, demanding recognition of the independence of Chechnya and a Russian withdrawal. 1,100 people (including 777 children) were taken hostage. The attack lasted three days, resulting in the deaths of over 331 people, including 186 children.[30][52][53][54] After the 2004 school siege, Russian president Vladimir Putin announced sweeping security and political reforms, sealing borders in the Caucasus region and revealing plans to give the central government more power. He also vowed to take tougher action against domestic terrorism, including preemptive strikes against Chechen separatists.[30] In 2005 and 2006, separatist leaders Aslan Maskhadov and Shamil Basayev were killed.
Since 2007, Chechnya has been governed by Ramzan Kadyrov.[55] Kadyrov's rule has been characterized by high-level corruption, a poor human rights record, widespread use of torture, and a growing cult of personality.[56][57] Allegations of anti-gay purges in Chechnya were initially reported on 1 April 2017.
In April 2009, Russia ended its counter-terrorism operation and pulled out the bulk of its army.[58] The insurgency in the North Caucasus continued even after this date. The Caucasus Emirate had fully adopted the tenets of a Salafist jihadist group through its strict adherence to the Sunni Hanbali obedience to the literal interpretation of the Quran and the Sunnah.[59]
The Chechen government has been outspoken in its support for the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, where a Chechen military force, the Kadyrovtsy, which is under Kadyrov's personal command, has played a leading role, notably in the Siege of Mariupol.[60] Meanwhile, a substantial number of Chechen separatists have allied themselves to the Ukrainian cause and are fighting a mutual Russian enemy in the Donbas.[61] In June 2022, the US State Department advised citizens not to travel to Chechnya, due to terrorism, kidnapping, and risk of civil unrest.[62] 1944 is a different time my friend, back then it was much easier to do ethnic cleansings. For example Israel did one around that time, called the Nakba. Today it is much harder to accomplish, which is why, as you point out, strategies are "slightly different but same goal", both in Russia and in Israel. Contrary to your claim that Russia does it easily, from your own claims they want to do one in Chechnya since 2002 and Chechens are still there. I was not claiming a genocide, that is your words. But most consider what Russia is doing now genocidal. The only ones that do not are Russia's allies, one of which is Iran. I was claiming that Israel could walk in with their army, take over, install a proxy government. They don't want too. This is not a war of conquest for them, nor did they even start this. Kind of back to your blindness because of point 4 in Cuddlys list. As long as you are stuck to that framing as the only truth you are missing no much nuance, which makes it inaccurate and uninteresting. If you wanted to go through my first post, actually read it, consider it and then come back with a list of why I'm wrong. With you know counter points and evidence that would be great. But as I mentioned earlier I'm not interested in being dragged into a internet fite you love. It is one of the things I like least about this thread some of the most interesting thoughtful people are gone because of you. It kind of boggles my mind that you continue to post like this without consequence. Not that you are doing anything person with me (yet) but just what has been the point of any of your responses? You don't even know what you are arguing against because you have not read it. It is a strange proudness of ignorance that I'm not found of. Well if you're not claiming genocide/ethnic cleansing then you shouldn't offer these as a response when I ask you when Russia has removed a people and replaced it with Russians. You should say "There are no such situations". Then we can continue the conversation, and I tell you that even with power imbalance it is very hard in the current day to remove a people from a place, much harder than to just rule over them and generally treat them like shit. This is true for Russia and it's true for Israel, and it's actually even more true for Israel than it is for Russia because Israel is dependant on other countries in a much more direct way than Russia is. So the goal of Israel, which is not to rule over Palestinians but to remove them, is much harder to accomplish, which is why they're not doing it fast. We've solved that issue. Why would I say there are not such situations when there were. Had you said current I would have went there, and you can see this pattern in Chechnya, Georgia, their involvement in Syria, their support of every current army/ government committing genocide in Africa and when their current actions are considered genocidal more universally their Israel? As a person who is certain Israel is committing genocide, why do you think this is the only genocide Russia is against? Iran's proxy armies are also blatantly geocidal both in rhetoric and actions, so I'm not sure even what your point is. How would Iran be Ukraine? lets not forget for a long time Russia "wasn't fighting in Ukraine" that was the various peoples republics. I agree that Israel is dependent on democracies and there for has to follow rules that their leader and Russia do not. Would you agree that Iran is support Russian Genocide? And would you say they are supporting Hamas and Hezbollah's genocidal intentions? If not why? Do you agree that Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Houthis are proxy armies for Iran? If not why? You're saying that Israel can't be Russia in the analogy because if Israel was Russia there would be no Palestine, because when Russia wants to crush a group that it has a power imbalance over that happens quickly and as such Palestine would already be gone. None of the places and/or people you're offering as examples of Russia doing it quickly are gone. So clearly, when Russia is Russia, it doesn't happen quickly. What happens quickly is ruling over the people of a place, not removing the people from the place. Your counterargument fails. That's all. I don't see how this is arguable, this seems just objectively true. Which probably explains why you're trying to talk about other things. No I did not say your strawman. When I said no Palestine I meant the way there is no Chechnya any more and the way Donbas is now a "independent" republic. Which Israel could do as easy as Russia if they wanted to. It would not lead to the end of their existence as a Jewish state. Israel being a democracy with a relatively small population, if they give citizen status to the Palestinians like Russia does with Chechnya, this will lead to an equal number of Arabs and Jews with voting rights (7.2 million Jews for 6.7 million Arabs, and this doesn't account for the right to return of palestinian refugees). There is no shot that those populations vote to maintain a Jewish State, not every Israeli Jew agrees with the far right. If you plan to not give them full citizenship, then congratulations, the thing that you're saying ought to be happening is already happening, as the West Bank currently does live under military occupation of Israel, and unless there's a drastic change in world politics ("unless" not being the greatest word here as I think a change is quite likely to happen), Gaza will be too in the near future.
Did you give up on your last strawman so you are coming up with another? When did I say what Israel should do in any of my posts?
Did Russia do the exact same thing in each area? Is what they did in Donbas something Israel could do if they wanted too?
And will you ever answer if you consider Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis as proxy armies of Iran?
+ Show Spoiler +And why do you post like this? You expect everyone to answer you fully and completely but you rarely if ever do the same back? Then when it does not go how you like you give a pouty, low content post. Is this why you can't post on the more moderated US pol thread? Can you not just follow the basic rules of the thread or at the very least hold yourself to the same standards as you hold to those you post with. Why do you even post here? If you just want to drop bitchy one liners why not head ot reddit and maybe get some thumbs up!
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On September 20 2024 06:46 Oldwiseman44 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 06:37 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 06:25 Oldwiseman44 wrote:On September 20 2024 04:43 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 04:35 Oldwiseman44 wrote:On September 20 2024 04:16 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 04:11 Oldwiseman44 wrote:On September 20 2024 03:53 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 03:48 Oldwiseman44 wrote:On September 20 2024 03:43 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
This does not say that the Crimean Tatars have been ethnically cleansed from Crimea. If there are children there to bus back to Russia then they're probably still here, otherwise it would be hard to bus them. My apologies I thought you were aware of the major genocides considering your talk about them. Russia and the USSR have committed some of the most and the biggest. The deportation of the Crimean Tatars was the ethnic cleansing and the cultural genocide of at least 191,044 Crimean Tatars which was carried out by the Soviet authorities from 18 to 20 May 1944, supervised by Lavrentiy Beria, and ordered by the Soviet leader Joseph Stalin. Within those three days, the NKVD used cattle trains to deport the Crimean Tatars, mostly women, children, and the elderly, even Communist Party members and Red Army members, to the Uzbek SSR, several thousand kilometres away. Multiple scholars have recognised the deportation as a genocide.[176][177] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocidesThe deportation of the Chechens and Ingush, or Ardakhar Genocide, was the Soviet forced transfer of the whole of the Vainakh (Chechen and Ingush) populations of the North Caucasus to Central Asia on 23 February 1944, during World War II. The expulsion was ordered by NKVD chief Lavrentiy Beria after approval by Soviet leader Joseph Stalin, as a part of a Soviet forced settlement program and population transfer that affected several million members of ethnic minorities in the Soviet Union between the 1930s and the 1950s.[166][167][168][169] The European Parliament officially recognised the deportations as genocide in 2004.[170][171] Now a days the Russian move is slightly different but same goal and much closer to what Iran is currently doing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ChechnyaChechen separatists continued to fight Russian troops and conduct terror attacks.[46][page needed] In October 2002, 40–50 Chechen rebels seized a Moscow theater and took about 900 civilians hostage.[30] The crisis ended with 117 hostages and up to 50 rebels dead, mostly due to an unknown aerosol pumped into the building by Russian special forces to incapacitate the people inside.[47][48][49]
In response to these attacks, Russia tightened its grip on Chechnya and expanded its anti-terrorist operations throughout the region. Russia installed a pro-Russian Chechen regime. In 2003, a referendum was held on a constitution that reintegrated Chechnya within Russia but provided limited autonomy. According to the Chechen government, the referendum passed with 95.5% of the votes and almost 80% turnout.[50] The Economist was skeptical of the results, arguing that "few outside the Kremlin regard the referendum as fair".[51]
In September 2004, separatist rebels occupied a school in the town of Beslan, North Ossetia, demanding recognition of the independence of Chechnya and a Russian withdrawal. 1,100 people (including 777 children) were taken hostage. The attack lasted three days, resulting in the deaths of over 331 people, including 186 children.[30][52][53][54] After the 2004 school siege, Russian president Vladimir Putin announced sweeping security and political reforms, sealing borders in the Caucasus region and revealing plans to give the central government more power. He also vowed to take tougher action against domestic terrorism, including preemptive strikes against Chechen separatists.[30] In 2005 and 2006, separatist leaders Aslan Maskhadov and Shamil Basayev were killed.
Since 2007, Chechnya has been governed by Ramzan Kadyrov.[55] Kadyrov's rule has been characterized by high-level corruption, a poor human rights record, widespread use of torture, and a growing cult of personality.[56][57] Allegations of anti-gay purges in Chechnya were initially reported on 1 April 2017.
In April 2009, Russia ended its counter-terrorism operation and pulled out the bulk of its army.[58] The insurgency in the North Caucasus continued even after this date. The Caucasus Emirate had fully adopted the tenets of a Salafist jihadist group through its strict adherence to the Sunni Hanbali obedience to the literal interpretation of the Quran and the Sunnah.[59]
The Chechen government has been outspoken in its support for the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, where a Chechen military force, the Kadyrovtsy, which is under Kadyrov's personal command, has played a leading role, notably in the Siege of Mariupol.[60] Meanwhile, a substantial number of Chechen separatists have allied themselves to the Ukrainian cause and are fighting a mutual Russian enemy in the Donbas.[61] In June 2022, the US State Department advised citizens not to travel to Chechnya, due to terrorism, kidnapping, and risk of civil unrest.[62] 1944 is a different time my friend, back then it was much easier to do ethnic cleansings. For example Israel did one around that time, called the Nakba. Today it is much harder to accomplish, which is why, as you point out, strategies are "slightly different but same goal", both in Russia and in Israel. Contrary to your claim that Russia does it easily, from your own claims they want to do one in Chechnya since 2002 and Chechens are still there. I was not claiming a genocide, that is your words. But most consider what Russia is doing now genocidal. The only ones that do not are Russia's allies, one of which is Iran. I was claiming that Israel could walk in with their army, take over, install a proxy government. They don't want too. This is not a war of conquest for them, nor did they even start this. Kind of back to your blindness because of point 4 in Cuddlys list. As long as you are stuck to that framing as the only truth you are missing no much nuance, which makes it inaccurate and uninteresting. If you wanted to go through my first post, actually read it, consider it and then come back with a list of why I'm wrong. With you know counter points and evidence that would be great. But as I mentioned earlier I'm not interested in being dragged into a internet fite you love. It is one of the things I like least about this thread some of the most interesting thoughtful people are gone because of you. It kind of boggles my mind that you continue to post like this without consequence. Not that you are doing anything person with me (yet) but just what has been the point of any of your responses? You don't even know what you are arguing against because you have not read it. It is a strange proudness of ignorance that I'm not found of. Well if you're not claiming genocide/ethnic cleansing then you shouldn't offer these as a response when I ask you when Russia has removed a people and replaced it with Russians. You should say "There are no such situations". Then we can continue the conversation, and I tell you that even with power imbalance it is very hard in the current day to remove a people from a place, much harder than to just rule over them and generally treat them like shit. This is true for Russia and it's true for Israel, and it's actually even more true for Israel than it is for Russia because Israel is dependant on other countries in a much more direct way than Russia is. So the goal of Israel, which is not to rule over Palestinians but to remove them, is much harder to accomplish, which is why they're not doing it fast. We've solved that issue. Why would I say there are not such situations when there were. Had you said current I would have went there, and you can see this pattern in Chechnya, Georgia, their involvement in Syria, their support of every current army/ government committing genocide in Africa and when their current actions are considered genocidal more universally their Israel? As a person who is certain Israel is committing genocide, why do you think this is the only genocide Russia is against? Iran's proxy armies are also blatantly geocidal both in rhetoric and actions, so I'm not sure even what your point is. How would Iran be Ukraine? lets not forget for a long time Russia "wasn't fighting in Ukraine" that was the various peoples republics. I agree that Israel is dependent on democracies and there for has to follow rules that their leader and Russia do not. Would you agree that Iran is support Russian Genocide? And would you say they are supporting Hamas and Hezbollah's genocidal intentions? If not why? Do you agree that Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Houthis are proxy armies for Iran? If not why? You're saying that Israel can't be Russia in the analogy because if Israel was Russia there would be no Palestine, because when Russia wants to crush a group that it has a power imbalance over that happens quickly and as such Palestine would already be gone. None of the places and/or people you're offering as examples of Russia doing it quickly are gone. So clearly, when Russia is Russia, it doesn't happen quickly. What happens quickly is ruling over the people of a place, not removing the people from the place. Your counterargument fails. That's all. I don't see how this is arguable, this seems just objectively true. Which probably explains why you're trying to talk about other things. No I did not say your strawman. When I said no Palestine I meant the way there is no Chechnya any more and the way Donbas is now a "independent" republic. Which Israel could do as easy as Russia if they wanted to. It would not lead to the end of their existence as a Jewish state. Israel being a democracy with a relatively small population, if they give citizen status to the Palestinians like Russia does with Chechnya, this will lead to an equal number of Arabs and Jews with voting rights (7.2 million Jews for 6.7 million Arabs, and this doesn't account for the right to return of palestinian refugees). There is no shot that those populations vote to maintain a Jewish State, not every Israeli Jew agrees with the far right. If you plan to not give them full citizenship, then congratulations, the thing that you're saying ought to be happening is already happening, as the West Bank currently does live under military occupation of Israel, and unless there's a drastic change in world politics ("unless" not being the greatest word here as I think a change is quite likely to happen), Gaza will be too in the near future. Did you give up on your last strawman so you are coming up with another? When did I say what Israel should do in any of my posts? Did Russia do the exact same thing in each area? Is what they did in Donbas something Israel could do if they wanted too?
This is non responsive. Stick to the point please.
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United States41470 Posts
On September 20 2024 06:45 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 06:40 KwarK wrote:
Egypt has a huge population, Gazans wouldn’t be a huge change in voting bloc power, and they also don’t want anything to do with annexing Gaza. It’s been on offer. The population of Gaza is a poison pill to any state that takes them in.
The reluctance to add Gazans to your population has absolutely nothing to do with voting blocs. Would they be a poison pill to the state of Palestine?
Yes. 100%.
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On September 20 2024 06:49 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 06:46 Oldwiseman44 wrote:On September 20 2024 06:37 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 06:25 Oldwiseman44 wrote:On September 20 2024 04:43 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 04:35 Oldwiseman44 wrote:On September 20 2024 04:16 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 04:11 Oldwiseman44 wrote:On September 20 2024 03:53 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 03:48 Oldwiseman44 wrote:[quote] My apologies I thought you were aware of the major genocides considering your talk about them. Russia and the USSR have committed some of the most and the biggest. [quote] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_genocides[quote] Now a days the Russian move is slightly different but same goal and much closer to what Iran is currently doing. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya[quote] 1944 is a different time my friend, back then it was much easier to do ethnic cleansings. For example Israel did one around that time, called the Nakba. Today it is much harder to accomplish, which is why, as you point out, strategies are "slightly different but same goal", both in Russia and in Israel. Contrary to your claim that Russia does it easily, from your own claims they want to do one in Chechnya since 2002 and Chechens are still there. I was not claiming a genocide, that is your words. But most consider what Russia is doing now genocidal. The only ones that do not are Russia's allies, one of which is Iran. I was claiming that Israel could walk in with their army, take over, install a proxy government. They don't want too. This is not a war of conquest for them, nor did they even start this. Kind of back to your blindness because of point 4 in Cuddlys list. As long as you are stuck to that framing as the only truth you are missing no much nuance, which makes it inaccurate and uninteresting. If you wanted to go through my first post, actually read it, consider it and then come back with a list of why I'm wrong. With you know counter points and evidence that would be great. But as I mentioned earlier I'm not interested in being dragged into a internet fite you love. It is one of the things I like least about this thread some of the most interesting thoughtful people are gone because of you. It kind of boggles my mind that you continue to post like this without consequence. Not that you are doing anything person with me (yet) but just what has been the point of any of your responses? You don't even know what you are arguing against because you have not read it. It is a strange proudness of ignorance that I'm not found of. Well if you're not claiming genocide/ethnic cleansing then you shouldn't offer these as a response when I ask you when Russia has removed a people and replaced it with Russians. You should say "There are no such situations". Then we can continue the conversation, and I tell you that even with power imbalance it is very hard in the current day to remove a people from a place, much harder than to just rule over them and generally treat them like shit. This is true for Russia and it's true for Israel, and it's actually even more true for Israel than it is for Russia because Israel is dependant on other countries in a much more direct way than Russia is. So the goal of Israel, which is not to rule over Palestinians but to remove them, is much harder to accomplish, which is why they're not doing it fast. We've solved that issue. Why would I say there are not such situations when there were. Had you said current I would have went there, and you can see this pattern in Chechnya, Georgia, their involvement in Syria, their support of every current army/ government committing genocide in Africa and when their current actions are considered genocidal more universally their Israel? As a person who is certain Israel is committing genocide, why do you think this is the only genocide Russia is against? Iran's proxy armies are also blatantly geocidal both in rhetoric and actions, so I'm not sure even what your point is. How would Iran be Ukraine? lets not forget for a long time Russia "wasn't fighting in Ukraine" that was the various peoples republics. I agree that Israel is dependent on democracies and there for has to follow rules that their leader and Russia do not. Would you agree that Iran is support Russian Genocide? And would you say they are supporting Hamas and Hezbollah's genocidal intentions? If not why? Do you agree that Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Houthis are proxy armies for Iran? If not why? You're saying that Israel can't be Russia in the analogy because if Israel was Russia there would be no Palestine, because when Russia wants to crush a group that it has a power imbalance over that happens quickly and as such Palestine would already be gone. None of the places and/or people you're offering as examples of Russia doing it quickly are gone. So clearly, when Russia is Russia, it doesn't happen quickly. What happens quickly is ruling over the people of a place, not removing the people from the place. Your counterargument fails. That's all. I don't see how this is arguable, this seems just objectively true. Which probably explains why you're trying to talk about other things. No I did not say your strawman. When I said no Palestine I meant the way there is no Chechnya any more and the way Donbas is now a "independent" republic. Which Israel could do as easy as Russia if they wanted to. It would not lead to the end of their existence as a Jewish state. Israel being a democracy with a relatively small population, if they give citizen status to the Palestinians like Russia does with Chechnya, this will lead to an equal number of Arabs and Jews with voting rights (7.2 million Jews for 6.7 million Arabs, and this doesn't account for the right to return of palestinian refugees). There is no shot that those populations vote to maintain a Jewish State, not every Israeli Jew agrees with the far right. If you plan to not give them full citizenship, then congratulations, the thing that you're saying ought to be happening is already happening, as the West Bank currently does live under military occupation of Israel, and unless there's a drastic change in world politics ("unless" not being the greatest word here as I think a change is quite likely to happen), Gaza will be too in the near future. Did you give up on your last strawman so you are coming up with another? When did I say what Israel should do in any of my posts? Did Russia do the exact same thing in each area? Is what they did in Donbas something Israel could do if they wanted too? This is non responsive. Stick to the point please.
The irony is thick when you cut the point from my response and only respond to that. Which was off the point but so have all of your responses. So you know walk your own talk.
But we both know this is just a dodge of the tough questions.
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On September 20 2024 06:54 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 06:45 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 06:40 KwarK wrote:
Egypt has a huge population, Gazans wouldn’t be a huge change in voting bloc power, and they also don’t want anything to do with annexing Gaza. It’s been on offer. The population of Gaza is a poison pill to any state that takes them in.
The reluctance to add Gazans to your population has absolutely nothing to do with voting blocs. Would they be a poison pill to the state of Palestine? Yes. 100%.
Eh, to be fair that's a distinct possibility, but I don't think it's 100%. More like 40 to 60% or something like this. Quite likely but not a certainty either. If humanity has taught me anything, it's that they can easily forget the past when things are going better now. Although this is a particularly long "past" to forget, so it might take longer.
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On September 20 2024 06:56 Oldwiseman44 wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 06:49 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 06:46 Oldwiseman44 wrote:On September 20 2024 06:37 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 06:25 Oldwiseman44 wrote:On September 20 2024 04:43 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 04:35 Oldwiseman44 wrote:On September 20 2024 04:16 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 04:11 Oldwiseman44 wrote:On September 20 2024 03:53 Nebuchad wrote:
[quote]
1944 is a different time my friend, back then it was much easier to do ethnic cleansings. For example Israel did one around that time, called the Nakba.
Today it is much harder to accomplish, which is why, as you point out, strategies are "slightly different but same goal", both in Russia and in Israel. Contrary to your claim that Russia does it easily, from your own claims they want to do one in Chechnya since 2002 and Chechens are still there. I was not claiming a genocide, that is your words. But most consider what Russia is doing now genocidal. The only ones that do not are Russia's allies, one of which is Iran. I was claiming that Israel could walk in with their army, take over, install a proxy government. They don't want too. This is not a war of conquest for them, nor did they even start this. Kind of back to your blindness because of point 4 in Cuddlys list. As long as you are stuck to that framing as the only truth you are missing no much nuance, which makes it inaccurate and uninteresting. If you wanted to go through my first post, actually read it, consider it and then come back with a list of why I'm wrong. With you know counter points and evidence that would be great. But as I mentioned earlier I'm not interested in being dragged into a internet fite you love. It is one of the things I like least about this thread some of the most interesting thoughtful people are gone because of you. It kind of boggles my mind that you continue to post like this without consequence. Not that you are doing anything person with me (yet) but just what has been the point of any of your responses? You don't even know what you are arguing against because you have not read it. It is a strange proudness of ignorance that I'm not found of. Well if you're not claiming genocide/ethnic cleansing then you shouldn't offer these as a response when I ask you when Russia has removed a people and replaced it with Russians. You should say "There are no such situations". Then we can continue the conversation, and I tell you that even with power imbalance it is very hard in the current day to remove a people from a place, much harder than to just rule over them and generally treat them like shit. This is true for Russia and it's true for Israel, and it's actually even more true for Israel than it is for Russia because Israel is dependant on other countries in a much more direct way than Russia is. So the goal of Israel, which is not to rule over Palestinians but to remove them, is much harder to accomplish, which is why they're not doing it fast. We've solved that issue. Why would I say there are not such situations when there were. Had you said current I would have went there, and you can see this pattern in Chechnya, Georgia, their involvement in Syria, their support of every current army/ government committing genocide in Africa and when their current actions are considered genocidal more universally their Israel? As a person who is certain Israel is committing genocide, why do you think this is the only genocide Russia is against? Iran's proxy armies are also blatantly geocidal both in rhetoric and actions, so I'm not sure even what your point is. How would Iran be Ukraine? lets not forget for a long time Russia "wasn't fighting in Ukraine" that was the various peoples republics. I agree that Israel is dependent on democracies and there for has to follow rules that their leader and Russia do not. Would you agree that Iran is support Russian Genocide? And would you say they are supporting Hamas and Hezbollah's genocidal intentions? If not why? Do you agree that Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Houthis are proxy armies for Iran? If not why? You're saying that Israel can't be Russia in the analogy because if Israel was Russia there would be no Palestine, because when Russia wants to crush a group that it has a power imbalance over that happens quickly and as such Palestine would already be gone. None of the places and/or people you're offering as examples of Russia doing it quickly are gone. So clearly, when Russia is Russia, it doesn't happen quickly. What happens quickly is ruling over the people of a place, not removing the people from the place. Your counterargument fails. That's all. I don't see how this is arguable, this seems just objectively true. Which probably explains why you're trying to talk about other things. No I did not say your strawman. When I said no Palestine I meant the way there is no Chechnya any more and the way Donbas is now a "independent" republic. Which Israel could do as easy as Russia if they wanted to. It would not lead to the end of their existence as a Jewish state. Israel being a democracy with a relatively small population, if they give citizen status to the Palestinians like Russia does with Chechnya, this will lead to an equal number of Arabs and Jews with voting rights (7.2 million Jews for 6.7 million Arabs, and this doesn't account for the right to return of palestinian refugees). There is no shot that those populations vote to maintain a Jewish State, not every Israeli Jew agrees with the far right. If you plan to not give them full citizenship, then congratulations, the thing that you're saying ought to be happening is already happening, as the West Bank currently does live under military occupation of Israel, and unless there's a drastic change in world politics ("unless" not being the greatest word here as I think a change is quite likely to happen), Gaza will be too in the near future. Did you give up on your last strawman so you are coming up with another? When did I say what Israel should do in any of my posts? Did Russia do the exact same thing in each area? Is what they did in Donbas something Israel could do if they wanted too? This is non responsive. Stick to the point please. The irony is thick when you cut the point from my response and only respond to that. Which was off the point but so have all of your responses. So you know walk your own talk. But we both know this is just a dodge of the tough questions.
You made an argument that doesn't work objectively, like it's not that I have a different opinion you're just very clearly wrong. Why would I want to discuss other topics with you when you can't acknowledge that.
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On September 20 2024 06:59 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On September 20 2024 06:56 Oldwiseman44 wrote:On September 20 2024 06:49 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 06:46 Oldwiseman44 wrote:On September 20 2024 06:37 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 06:25 Oldwiseman44 wrote:On September 20 2024 04:43 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 04:35 Oldwiseman44 wrote:On September 20 2024 04:16 Nebuchad wrote:On September 20 2024 04:11 Oldwiseman44 wrote:
[quote]
I was not claiming a genocide, that is your words. But most consider what Russia is doing now genocidal. The only ones that do not are Russia's allies, one of which is Iran.
I was claiming that Israel could walk in with their army, take over, install a proxy government. They don't want too. This is not a war of conquest for them, nor did they even start this.
Kind of back to your blindness because of point 4 in Cuddlys list. As long as you are stuck to that framing as the only truth you are missing no much nuance, which makes it inaccurate and uninteresting. If you wanted to go through my first post, actually read it, consider it and then come back with a list of why I'm wrong. With you know counter points and evidence that would be great.
But as I mentioned earlier I'm not interested in being dragged into a internet fite you love. It is one of the things I like least about this thread some of the most interesting thoughtful people are gone because of you. It kind of boggles my mind that you continue to post like this without consequence. Not that you are doing anything person with me (yet) but just what has been the point of any of your responses? You don't even know what you are arguing against because you have not read it. It is a strange proudness of ignorance that I'm not found of. Well if you're not claiming genocide/ethnic cleansing then you shouldn't offer these as a response when I ask you when Russia has removed a people and replaced it with Russians. You should say "There are no such situations". Then we can continue the conversation, and I tell you that even with power imbalance it is very hard in the current day to remove a people from a place, much harder than to just rule over them and generally treat them like shit. This is true for Russia and it's true for Israel, and it's actually even more true for Israel than it is for Russia because Israel is dependant on other countries in a much more direct way than Russia is. So the goal of Israel, which is not to rule over Palestinians but to remove them, is much harder to accomplish, which is why they're not doing it fast. We've solved that issue. Why would I say there are not such situations when there were. Had you said current I would have went there, and you can see this pattern in Chechnya, Georgia, their involvement in Syria, their support of every current army/ government committing genocide in Africa and when their current actions are considered genocidal more universally their Israel? As a person who is certain Israel is committing genocide, why do you think this is the only genocide Russia is against? Iran's proxy armies are also blatantly geocidal both in rhetoric and actions, so I'm not sure even what your point is. How would Iran be Ukraine? lets not forget for a long time Russia "wasn't fighting in Ukraine" that was the various peoples republics. I agree that Israel is dependent on democracies and there for has to follow rules that their leader and Russia do not. Would you agree that Iran is support Russian Genocide? And would you say they are supporting Hamas and Hezbollah's genocidal intentions? If not why? Do you agree that Hamas, Hezbollah, and the Houthis are proxy armies for Iran? If not why? You're saying that Israel can't be Russia in the analogy because if Israel was Russia there would be no Palestine, because when Russia wants to crush a group that it has a power imbalance over that happens quickly and as such Palestine would already be gone. None of the places and/or people you're offering as examples of Russia doing it quickly are gone. So clearly, when Russia is Russia, it doesn't happen quickly. What happens quickly is ruling over the people of a place, not removing the people from the place. Your counterargument fails. That's all. I don't see how this is arguable, this seems just objectively true. Which probably explains why you're trying to talk about other things. No I did not say your strawman. When I said no Palestine I meant the way there is no Chechnya any more and the way Donbas is now a "independent" republic. Which Israel could do as easy as Russia if they wanted to. It would not lead to the end of their existence as a Jewish state. Israel being a democracy with a relatively small population, if they give citizen status to the Palestinians like Russia does with Chechnya, this will lead to an equal number of Arabs and Jews with voting rights (7.2 million Jews for 6.7 million Arabs, and this doesn't account for the right to return of palestinian refugees). There is no shot that those populations vote to maintain a Jewish State, not every Israeli Jew agrees with the far right. If you plan to not give them full citizenship, then congratulations, the thing that you're saying ought to be happening is already happening, as the West Bank currently does live under military occupation of Israel, and unless there's a drastic change in world politics ("unless" not being the greatest word here as I think a change is quite likely to happen), Gaza will be too in the near future. Did you give up on your last strawman so you are coming up with another? When did I say what Israel should do in any of my posts? Did Russia do the exact same thing in each area? Is what they did in Donbas something Israel could do if they wanted too? This is non responsive. Stick to the point please. The irony is thick when you cut the point from my response and only respond to that. Which was off the point but so have all of your responses. So you know walk your own talk. But we both know this is just a dodge of the tough questions. You made an argument that doesn't work objectively, like it's not that I have a different opinion you're just very clearly wrong. Why would I want to discuss other topics with you when you can't acknowledge that.
If you remember to a couple of hours ago you responded to a post not intended for you and asked me questions. This is why I responded to you and asked you questions. The big difference being is I am acting in good faith and responding to your actual questions and you are not. At no point have I made any of the arguments you are even mad about.
If my initial post is objectively wrong, go through it and explain. I'd be interested as likely would be others. But please stick to my words and not whatever presumptions you have created.
Do you believe that Hezbollah, Hamas and Houthis are proxy armies of Iran? If not why?
Simple question for someone as invested in this conflict as much as you are.
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EPT
