EPTThings Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine - Page 213
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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Manifesto7
Osaka27093 Posts
On February 05 2024 22:31 JimmiC wrote: LOL thanks for the great laugh. I’ll try to remember in the future you preform to remain ignorant and ignore you! Have a good one. You can't say "I'm going to ignore you" when you continue to be one of the most active posters in the thread. That ruins the discussion for everyone else and makes it disjointed. with two conversations happening at the same time. Get along, or get out, those are the two options. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17700 Posts
On February 09 2024 08:37 FriedrichNietzsche wrote: Maybe everyone who partakes in this topic should simply always post a "current % blame level starting from Day 0 in terms of history or whatever starting point he deems reasonable".. Because to be quite honest sometimes I feel like that is what it is all about. And the crazy thing is: Magic Powers posts something and JimmiC thinks after reading that post that MP is somwhere around 90 % blame Israel/IDF 10% blame Palestine/Hamas whilst when asked MP would say he is at 55% Israel / 45 % Palestine.. and vice versa.. with several of JimmiCs posts MP is reading.. he comes to the conclusion that Jimmi thinks Hamas/Palestine is 95% to blame and Israel/IDF is 5% to blame.. whilst maybe Jimmi is more like 60% vs 40 %.. My point is: I think the main peeps posting in here are maybe really constantly missunderstanding each other. Like imagine if after every post anyone simply writes what he thinks about the conflict in terms of "fault/blame/responsibiliy/whatever u want to define it precisely as"? I think it would change things. And ofc these numbers can and should change. e.g. for me personally shortly after Oct 7 the % of blame shifted heavily towards hamas.. let's say P(Palestine) 60 / I(Israel) 40.. however now Im almost at P 50 / I 50 due to the retaliation being quite bad and creating many unnecessery suffering.. I know this is rather long and maybe confusing.. but just saying.. sometimes it feels like when pushed to state the %'s .. things simply make sense and the countless texts and replies simply feel obsolete.. Like I would be genuinely curious what it would change. Magic Powers, JimmiC, WombaT, Salazar (ofc many others) are extremely active in this particular topic. And things got (and are) extremely heated. But to me there seems to be really an issue of understanding truly what the other person means. I know this sounds sus/weird and I dont blame anyone not for doing it but it would really interest me (the % whos to blame thing). Like it really really bothers me that both things seem to be true at the same time: JimmiC (lets say Pro Israel) and Magic Powers (lets say Pro Palestine) post something were the average reader is like "omg that sounds very pro one side" but when asked to give numbers (obv hypothetical and I could be wrong) both of them would reply with "aehm it is very close a couple of % for the fraction I am pro with or seeing as a lesser culprit).. Isnt that weird? Out of curiosity what do u think in terms of "suffering"? (Palestinians vs Israelis) Id say it is a P (95%) I (5%) there. What does it mean? Im not sure. But it has to have some meaning. Generally curious: Give me you P% I% for who is at fault/the culprit/responsible & give me your P% I% suffering.. Why does blame have to add up to 100%? There's plenty of blame to go around and I don't really see it as something that can be adequately quantified. Rather it's something that just keeps piling up. Just because Israel's response was absurdly violent doesn't *diminish* the blame Hamas has for their heinous terrorist attack. That in turn doesn't make Israel's Gaza isolation policy or settlements in the West Bank any less oppressive, nor the second Intifada any less violent. It's an ever increasing spiral of violence with plenty of blame to go around for every little or big step of escalation. The last real attempt at de-escalation was the Oslo process in the 1990s. That's a long time ago and a whole generation on both sides has now grown up with the idea that the other side is scum who just wants to slaughter them all. Plenty of blame on both sides, and I don't think trying to quantify and parcel it out is as productive as you claim. | ||
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Fleetfeet
Canada2433 Posts
On February 09 2024 14:22 Acrofales wrote: Why does blame have to add up to 100%? There's plenty of blame to go around and I don't really see it as something that can be adequately quantified. Rather it's something that just keeps piling up. Just because Israel's response was absurdly violent doesn't *diminish* the blame Hamas has for their heinous terrorist attack. That in turn doesn't make Israel's Gaza isolation policy or settlements in the West Bank any less oppressive, nor the second Intifada any less violent. It's an ever increasing spiral of violence with plenty of blame to go around for every little or big step of escalation. The last real attempt at de-escalation was the Oslo process in the 1990s. That's a long time ago and a whole generation on both sides has now grown up with the idea that the other side is scum who just wants to slaughter them all. Plenty of blame on both sides, and I don't think trying to quantify and parcel it out is as productive as you claim. I think it would be productive merely in the isolated conversations of this thread. I think the idea that MP and Jimmi (substitute whomever you please) are arguing with each other as though their opposing side thinks the blame is 90/10 feels like a salient point. Reality might show that each side is actually 55/45 and all of the hostility in debate is over misunderstanding the other side's position. In that sense it has value. Would it have actual value to Palestine or Israel? Hell no, they would know better than us how messy and hate-filled the situation is, both from the hate they experience and the hate they hold. How much any of us blame any particular side is wholly irrelevant. Personally I'm very much underinformed and don't consider my own opinion to be worth anything, but based on what I've learned in this thread my personal numbers would be around 55P/45I for blame (Hamas, not really P), and 80P/20I in suffering for specifically this conflict. | ||
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Cerebrate1
265 Posts
On February 09 2024 08:37 FriedrichNietzsche wrote: Maybe everyone who partakes in this topic should simply always post a "current % blame level starting from Day 0 in terms of history or whatever starting point he deems reasonable".. Because to be quite honest sometimes I feel like that is what it is all about. And the crazy thing is: Magic Powers posts something and JimmiC thinks after reading that post that MP is somwhere around 90 % blame Israel/IDF 10% blame Palestine/Hamas whilst when asked MP would say he is at 55% Israel / 45 % Palestine.. and vice versa.. with several of JimmiCs posts MP is reading.. he comes to the conclusion that Jimmi thinks Hamas/Palestine is 95% to blame and Israel/IDF is 5% to blame.. whilst maybe Jimmi is more like 60% vs 40 %.. My point is: I think the main peeps posting in here are maybe really constantly missunderstanding each other. Like imagine if after every post anyone simply writes what he thinks about the conflict in terms of "fault/blame/responsibiliy/whatever u want to define it precisely as"? I think it would change things. And ofc these numbers can and should change. e.g. for me personally shortly after Oct 7 the % of blame shifted heavily towards hamas.. let's say P(Palestine) 60 / I(Israel) 40.. however now Im almost at P 50 / I 50 due to the retaliation being quite bad and creating many unnecessery suffering.. I know this is rather long and maybe confusing.. but just saying.. sometimes it feels like when pushed to state the %'s .. things simply make sense and the countless texts and replies simply feel obsolete.. Like I would be genuinely curious what it would change. Magic Powers, JimmiC, WombaT, Salazar (ofc many others) are extremely active in this particular topic. And things got (and are) extremely heated. But to me there seems to be really an issue of understanding truly what the other person means. I know this sounds sus/weird and I dont blame anyone not for doing it but it would really interest me (the % whos to blame thing). Like it really really bothers me that both things seem to be true at the same time: JimmiC (lets say Pro Israel) and Magic Powers (lets say Pro Palestine) post something were the average reader is like "omg that sounds very pro one side" but when asked to give numbers (obv hypothetical and I could be wrong) both of them would reply with "aehm it is very close a couple of % for the fraction I am pro with or seeing as a lesser culprit).. Isnt that weird? Out of curiosity what do u think in terms of "suffering"? (Palestinians vs Israelis) Id say it is a P (95%) I (5%) there. What does it mean? Im not sure. But it has to have some meaning. Generally curious: Give me you P% I% for who is at fault/the culprit/responsible & give me your P% I% suffering.. This might be helpful for certain conversations, certainly. I think an even better step is for everyone to look at facts in isolation rather than having to reconcile everything with a larger narrative. For instance, it seems most people here now agree that Hamas' recent ceasefire proposal was unreasonable. Does that mean the Palestinians are wrong about everything? No. Does it mean that everyone who thinks the proposal was unreasonable is Pro-Israel? No. Does it mean that none of the things Hamas asked for are reasonable? It doesn't even mean that. Whatever your general outlook on a topic, you can still look at a detail in isolation and deal with it honestly and rationally without having to tie it in with your larger stance. I think if we want to have a nuanced discussion, we have to have this mindset. Otherwise, we are just sports fans rooting for a team. As for percentages of blame, I don't think limiting it to I vs P is sufficient. There are many parts of this conflict that are as much or more the fault of external powers. I would place the lion's share of the blame for the early conflict on the Arab League (without them, everyone would have probably just accepted the 1947 Partition Plan and be done). In the middle years, the Soviets and the US turned the conflict into a proxy for their own Cold War. More recently, Iran constantly fans the flames of war, even as many other major players in the region are finally working towards a peaceful resolution. I've said this before in this thread, but I believe that if Israel and Palestine were situated on some Pacific Island together, they would have worked things out ages ago. It's everyone else using the conflict for their own geopolitical purposes that keeps the situation hot and perpetually unresolved. | ||
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FriedrichNietzsche
92 Posts
On February 09 2024 14:22 Acrofales wrote: Why does blame have to add up to 100%? There's plenty of blame to go around and I don't really see it as something that can be adequately quantified. Rather it's something that just keeps piling up. Just because Israel's response was absurdly violent doesn't *diminish* the blame Hamas has for their heinous terrorist attack. That in turn doesn't make Israel's Gaza isolation policy or settlements in the West Bank any less oppressive, nor the second Intifada any less violent. It's an ever increasing spiral of violence with plenty of blame to go around for every little or big step of escalation. The last real attempt at de-escalation was the Oslo process in the 1990s. That's a long time ago and a whole generation on both sides has now grown up with the idea that the other side is scum who just wants to slaughter them all. Plenty of blame on both sides, and I don't think trying to quantify and parcel it out is as productive as you claim. Oh I dont claim it is productive. It is extremely weird and strange. I admit that. I just wanted to hint at something I feel is happening a lot: Certain people have a stance that appears to be quite "pro" for "one fraction" - but when push comes to shove they ofc will admit that both sides are doing horrible things. This isnt exactly rocket science.. just a idea that shot into my head. It doesnt need to add up to 100%. And ofc you could inculde different fractions (e.g. GB who kinda started the modern phase of this conflict).. I didnt want to complicate things.. So I kept it as simple as possible.. The following is just a hypothetical (not saying anything about it is true): Lets say I read countless posts of Magic Powers or JimmiC and in the end I get the feeling that MP is basically a hardcore pro Hamas guy and JimmiC is basically a Zionist who wants to annihilate Palestine. If I ask them both the "Blame%MetricQuestion" and they respond with somethin more akin to the 50-50 to 40-60 range than 90-10 or 95-5 range I would conclude I have been extremely wrong with how I perecieved their respective views. Whatever.. maybe this Idea with the %eges is insane and dumb.. We dont need to go into that direction at all ofc.. | ||
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Acrofales
Spain17700 Posts
On February 09 2024 16:34 FriedrichNietzsche wrote: Oh I dont claim it is productive. It is extremely weird and strange. I admit that. I just wanted to hint at something I feel is happening a lot: Certain people have a stance that appears to be quite "pro" for "one fraction" - but when push comes to shove they ofc will admit that both sides are doing horrible things. This isnt exactly rocket science.. just a idea that shot into my head. It doesnt need to add up to 100%. And ofc you could inculde different fractions (e.g. GB who kinda started the modern phase of this conflict).. I didnt want to complicate things.. So I kept it as simple as possible.. The following is just a hypothetical (not saying anything about it is true): Lets say I read countless posts of Magic Powers or JimmiC and in the end I get the feeling that MP is basically a hardcore pro Hamas guy and JimmiC is basically a Zionist who wants to annihilate Palestine. If I ask them both the "Blame%MetricQuestion" and they respond with somethin more akin to the 50-50 to 40-60 range than 90-10 or 95-5 range I would conclude I have been extremely wrong with how I perecieved their respective views. Whatever.. maybe this Idea with the %eges is insane and dumb.. We dont need to go into that direction at all ofc.. Fair enough. I think MP and Jimmy's dispute isn't really over the blame, though, it's over the "what should happen right now?" And that depends less on blame and more on how you weight political objectives (eradicating Hamas) vs human suffering. If I understand MP, the blame of this entire conflict could be all entirely on the shoulders of Hamas, and he would still argue that the suffering of Palestinian civilians is disproportionate to the political objective and Israel needs to stop. That said, I think most people in this thread are pretty similar with regards to "blame" and Jimmy and MP as well. I'm pretty convinced they also know that about each other, and their bellicose rhetoric is just because they are both bellicose posters who will pick any little nit. I noticed the same from MP in the Covid thread, where he'd often argue vehemently with people who basically agreed with him, and JimmyC is just a firebrand who will pick arguments with anybody who answers him. The bigger disagreements with regards to blame would be with Mohdoo, Cerebrate and maybe RenSC2 on the "mostly Palestinian (and other Arabs' faults). If they had just accepted to live side by side with Jewish settlers, it would all have been fine." And GH and maybe Nebuchad on the other side on the "Israel is a country of colonists doing colonist things, and the Palestinians are justified in their actions by being natives defending their homeland from invaders." | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland11715 Posts
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RvB
Netherlands6158 Posts
On February 09 2024 04:40 Magic Powers wrote: Salazarz didn't say anything about the Fedayeen. He was talking about anti-Israel resistance at large. The PLO with its call to destruction in 1964 had various sub groups. Some were extremists and others were moderate. The level of terrorism against Israel has increased over time. What has also happened over time is Israel's long occupation of South Lebanon until 2000 and the continued occupation of the West bank. These are all the terrorist attacks against Israel and Israeli citizens in chronological order: https://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/terrisrael.html He claims that anti Israel resistance was loosely organized, non-violent protest, and public disobedience. That he does not mention the Fedayeen, the ones involved in violent attacks against Israel, is the problem. Terrorism was indeed less important to the Palestinian struggle initially but this leaves out important context. They moved towards terrorism after the six-day war because it became clear that the Arab countries could not beat Israel militarily. As I mentioned in my previous post there were numerous terroristic attacks inside and outside Israel before the first intifada like the Munich Olympics massacre, the Avivim school bus bombing, and the plane hijacking leading to the Entebbe raid. The reality is that the conflict has been violent since the British mandate. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3350 Posts
On February 09 2024 20:40 RvB wrote: He claims that anti Israel resistance was loosely organized, non-violent protest, and public disobedience. That he does not mention the Fedayeen, the ones involved in violent attacks against Israel, is the problem. Terrorism was indeed less important to the Palestinian struggle initially but this leaves out important context. They moved towards terrorism after the six-day war because it became clear that the Arab countries could not beat Israel militarily. As I mentioned in my previous post there were numerous terroristic attacks inside and outside Israel before the first intifada like the Munich Olympics massacre, the Avivim school bus bombing, and the plane hijacking leading to the Entebbe raid. The reality is that the conflict has been violent since the British mandate. If you use this reasoning, then the conflict has been eternal. Jews have always faced persecution, and terrorism was just another element of that. In that sense they were always under attack all throughout history. The question is when that terrorism reached new heights. Specifically in the Palestine region things escalated when Jews mass migrated to the area due to them being rounded up and put in concentration camps in Europe and due to Zionists pushing specifically for migration to Palestine. They could've pushed for migration to every other place in the world, but for religious reasons it was in the very specific direction of Palestine. This was a designed choice by the Zionists and the British supported this push. The tensions increased on both sides, Jews and Palestinians. Eventually the power balance shifted in favor of Jews and the Zionists simply took over. New point in history: conception of the State of Israel. Attacks against Jewish people increased severely due to that specific event. The attack against Israel itself as well as subsequent terrorist attacks were now more a consequence of this new nationalist Jewish state than any other previous tensions. The conflict turned into an international conflict rather than just a conflict between unwanted neighbors. Terrorists were now being directly supported by Arabic states due to this new circumstance. Israel had to defend itself for practical reasons, otherwise a lot of Jewish people would've been slaughtered. But it was also because Zionists never had an interest in giving Palestinians their own state: they stopped negotiating altogether. This is a key fact that people omit from history. Palestinians had been robbed. This is one of the main causes leading to continued aggression against Israel. It wasn't just anti-semitism, there was now a very legitimate reason to resist. Terrorism and resistance was now much harder to distinguish and therefore it would be overly simplistic to detach every single terrorist attack from the idea of resistance. Anyone who calls every attack against Israel just "terrorism" but never also "resistance" strictly does not understand the history. This is where things get even more complicated. Israel was attacked by states and organized terrorism, not just by loosely organized terrorism and resistance fighters. This eventually culminated in the situation that we have today: Israel's continued occupation of land. Not only is the territory of the State of Israel considered occupied land (as Arab states see it), but subsequently Israel illegally occupied more territory as a consequence of being attacked several times. Israel didn't just push out the aggressors, they took over. I gave the example of Southern Lebanon additionally to the West bank. Israel has a policy of creating "buffer zones", and Southern Lebanon was one of those cases until 2000. This and several other examples led to increased terrorist attacks, some of which can also be considered armed resistance. This is important as Israel has no right to occupy foreign land. The West bank is an even better example, as it is still occupied and the land continues to be stolen. I and many other people call it ethnic cleansing. It is also considered a war crime by many countries (not just Arab ones). The fact of the matter is that "terrorist attacks against Israel" are often part of legitimate resistance movements. The method is wrong because it targets civilians, but the cause is Israel's occupation of land. This makes it a two-wrongs scenario where the cause is an escalation of the conflict on both sides. Edit: I forgot to add, Israel's attacks have often led to many civilian deaths, in some cases several hundreds. This has further fueled anti-Israel aggression over the decades. Over time, Israel has accumulated a kill count that is hardly comparable to the death count of Israeli people. Today we're witnessing Israel's worst atrocity in all of history, and it supersedes all previous attacks against Israel tenfold. It's hard to argue with this fact. When Israel's aggression, occupation and oppression is so severe, the idea that terrorism against Israel or against Jews has always been the same is a little suspect. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria3350 Posts
https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2024/02/widespread-destruction-israeli-defence-forces-civilian-infrastructure-gaza | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
Along the hallway, there were several rooms, including a kitchenette, a meeting room with office chairs, two bathrooms and living quarters with several mattresses. Also in the hallway, troops found several small mobility scooters, thought to have been used by Hamas to traverse through the tunnel’s facilities with ease. “Above us is a UNRWA kids’ school,” Hazan said, as we explored the rooms in the main hallway. “This is years of work, with a lot of determination and resources.” From the main hallway, a 300-meter passage led to the data center and nearby electrical room. “We are now crossing a main road in Rimal, below several high-rise towers,” Hazan said. Parts of the tunnel, due to the combat engineers’ operations, did not have the usual concrete ceiling, exposing the fragile sand. “Keep your head down and don’t touch the ceiling,” a Shaldag officer told us, as we crawled through the section, making sure not to cause the tunnel to collapse on our heads. Also as a result of the combat engineers digging to reach the tunnel, rainwater had flooded in, causing knee-deep puddles in some areas, which we waded through to reach the data center. After the flooded sections of the tunnel, a slippery incline led to the first main facility in the tunnel, the electrical room. The room, with several electrical closets, power inverters and dozens of off-grid industrial batteries, was now covered in a thick layer of mud. Part of the room’s dropped ceiling was falling apart, where the combat engineers had dug down 20 meters from the courtyard of the UNRWA complex, adjacent to one of the main buildings. A few more dozen meters of tunnel from the electrical room led to the heart of the facility, Hamas’s data center. There were about half a dozen rows of server cabinets, each with racks of computers for Hamas’s operations. “We are now at the heart of the secret… under the main UNRWA building. Here is where Hamas kept its intelligence servers,” Hazan said. He said that “to destroy it, totally, so that Hamas cannot use this intelligence supremacy again, you need boots on the ground.” IDF officials believe Hamas used the server farm for intelligence gathering, data processing and communications. Hard drives and some of the computers were taken to Israel to be investigated by intelligence authorities before the tunnel system was demolished in a large explosion. Hazan said the IDF knows of several more “strategic” Hamas tunnels in Gaza, that they will reach in time. “We have time, months ahead of us in the war, and one by one we will dismantle them and take away what the enemy is trying to hide, and it hides it in a very sophisticated and cynical way,” he said. At the main building in the UN complex, Aharon led the reporters to UNRWA’s server room, which he said sits directly above the underground Hamas data center, where the reporters had been a short while earlier. “Some of the cables connect down,” he said, showing a line of cables running down to and into the floor, as we stood above the Hamas data center. The IDF said the electrical cables leading from the UN building to the tunnel were providing power to the Hamas infrastructure belowground. The UNRWA server room, unlike the Hamas one, appeared to be mostly empty. One server cabinet was placed outside the room, but it had been stripped of all the computers. “They cleared out all the computers, all the DVRs (digital video recorder for surveillance cameras), cut [most of] the cables, this is the behavior of someone who has something to hide,” Aharon said. “Someone who works at UNRWA, who is supposed to care for human rights, to care for the welfare of the population in Gaza, shouldn’t rush to disconnect all the DVRs, the cameras, cut all the wires and take all the computers. This is the actions of someone who knew the army was coming and wanted to hide the evidence,” he said. Hazan said that Hamas “didn’t randomly select this area. It knows that during peacetime and in previous wars [Israel] didn’t have the legitimacy to strike a UNRWA building and collapse it on the tunnel.” In addition to the allegations of its collusion with Hamas, Israel has also long accused UNRWA of perpetuating the Israeli-Palestinian conflict by extending refugee status to millions of descendants of Palestinians who fled or were forced out of homes in today’s Israel at the time of the establishment of the Jewish state in 1948, rather than limiting such status only to the original refugees, as is the norm with most refugee populations worldwide. “We were shocked to the depths of our souls, that an organization that is meant to be caring for human rights, is cooperating in such a clear and brutal way, without any fears, with a terror group like Hamas,” Aharon said. UNRWA did not immediately respond to requests for comment. In a tweet following the publication, the agency’s head Philippe Lazzarini denied any knowledge of the Hamas data center. Source edit: head of UNRWA. Again no way in hell this built in secret from September of last year and completed and not found. Or more absurd they left in October then Hamas moved in built the tunnel from October and moved equipment etc. in all while under aerial, and artillery bombardment to complete. Asinine. | ||
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Sermokala
United States13643 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria3350 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21177 Posts
On February 11 2024 06:07 Magic Powers wrote: Because while understandable that they have limited options in saying no, its still a terrible look for an organisation that was already under fire.The UNRWA is a humanitarian organization that's been operating within Gaza right next door to militants. They've probably interacted with gun wielding Hamas members every single day, and that certainly not by choice. Why should they be held responsible for this? | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria3350 Posts
On February 11 2024 06:15 Gorsameth wrote: Because while understandable that they have limited options in saying no, its still a terrible look for an organisation that was already under fire. I mean they were under fire for the wrong reasons to begin with. They're not Hamas and they don't support Hamas. Just because of a few members aiding Hamas the whole organization with over 30 000 members may be put on ice. That doesn't make any sense and it doesn't make any more sense now after this news. If I work in Gaza, I'm fully aware that I'll be subjected to the treatment of extremists. There's no way around that, the area is full of them and they have close ties with people in the population. It would surprise me if there were any people in Gaza who never personally had to deal with Hamas. Under these conditions I still have to make sure I can help the people who I'm supposed to help. If I turn into a spy against Hamas, I'm no longer in the role of a humanitarian, I'm putting my life on the line for Israel. How is that supposed to work? There would be no UNRWA in Gaza if they did that. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21177 Posts
On February 11 2024 06:20 Magic Powers wrote: They don't need to spy against Hamas, it would be not allowing Hamas to use their headquarters as a data center. And yes there is a chance Hamas would not have allowed them to stay if they said no. So they said yes, and now there will be no UNRWA is Gaza.I mean they were under fire for the wrong reasons to begin with. They're not Hamas and they don't support Hamas. Just because of a few members aiding Hamas the whole organization with over 30 000 members may be put on ice. That doesn't make any sense and it doesn't make any more sense now after this news. If I work in Gaza, I'm fully aware that I'll be subjected to the treatment of extremists. There's no way around that, the area is full of them and they have close ties with people in the population. It would surprise me if there were any people in Gaza who never personally had to deal with Hamas. Under these conditions I still have to make sure I can help the people who I'm supposed to help. If I turn into a spy against Hamas, I'm no longer in the role of a humanitarian, I'm putting my life on the line for Israel. How is that supposed to work? There would be no UNRWA in Gaza if they did that. | ||
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Elroi
Sweden5562 Posts
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