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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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Northern Ireland22954 Posts
On February 08 2024 11:23 Cerebrate1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2024 21:52 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2024 21:02 Magic Powers wrote:I'm coming around to the idea that Biden is in complete war hawk mode. On a surface level I see absolutely nothing wrong with Hamas' truce offer as proposed in this article. It sounds fantastic to me (if accepted and it actually works). Meanwhile Biden calls it "over the top". What's wrong with the old man? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68225663 Seems reasonable on skimming to me too Here is a further breakdown of Hamas’ proposal: What Hamas offers: 1. A return of the remaining hostages and Israeli bodies (Egypt estimates that about 50 of the hostages are dead now, so that’s about 80 live hostages assuming no more are murdered in the meantime). Hamas also says the releases are contingent on how well they feel Israel is holding up all its side of the bargain. What Hamas demands: 1. 135 day ceasefire 2. Jews are to be banned from entering the Temple Mount (holiest site in Judaism. Currently Muslims can pray there and Jews can visit for non-prayer purposes like tourism) 3. Restoration of the Gaza strip to it’s pre-war condition 4. Complete withdrawal of all IDF forces from the Gaza Strip to the border 5. Complete stop of all IDF arial activity, including surveillance drones 6. The release of all the Palestinian prisoners imprisoned in Israel who are younger than 19 or older than 50, as well as the sick, in addition to 1,500 Palestinian prisoners named by Hamas (of which 500 are serving life sentences for mass murder) 7. Completing the necessary steps to ensure that the prisoners who were released for the offenses for which they were imprisoned are not re-arrested (even if they re-offend like those who were re-arrested since the last time) 8. The introduction of a minimum of 500 aid trucks per day into the Strip, including fuel trucks 9. The return of all the displaced people to their homes all over the Strip without movement restrictions (i.e. no checking to see if any returnees are Hamas militants) 10. The opening of all Gaza crossings for the movement of people and goods without restrictions, including the departure of men, women and children for treatment outside the Gaza Strip without any restrictions (i.e. no more bans on weapons entering the Strip) 11. Supply of heavy engineering equipment for clearing rubble, equipment for civil defense (i.e. Israel should donate guns for Hamas’ police force) and equipment for the Ministry of Health 12. The rehabilitation of the hospitals and bakeries in the entire strip 13. Bringing in of all the equipment needed to set up residential camps, including: 60 thousand temporary residential buildings (trailers and containers) at a rate of 15 thousand per week. The introduction of 200,000 tents at a rate of 50,000 per week 14. The beginning of infrastructure restoration all over the Strip, including water, electricity and communication infrastructures. 15. Approval of a comprehensive plan for the rehabilitation of all the residential buildings, commercial buildings and public buildings that were destroyed as a result of the fighting within a schedule of three years (funds will of course be managed by the local government [Hamas] to line pockets as desired) 16. Renewal of all the humanitarian aid provided to the residents of the Gaza Strip and especially the full functioning of UNRWA - as it was before October 7. 17. Supplying the diesel needed to operate the power plant in Gaza and needed for all sectors in the Gaza Strip. 18. Israel must be forced to meet the needs of the Gaza Strip in the area of electricity and water. 19. A mechanism for keeping Israel out of the Strip (i.e. this is actually a permanent ceasefire) 20. Also, additional prisoners (besides for the 1,500+teens+older+sick already released) will be demanded 45 days in, to guarantee the release of the second batch of Israeli hostages TLDR: Hamas will give ~80 hostages (and some corpses) in exchange for ~2,000+ prisoners, Israel footing the bill for the reconstruction, and Hamas and it’s support networks restored to complete and permanent control of the Strip. For comparison, Russia and Ukraine exchanged prisoners of war a week ago. 195 Russian prisoners were exchanged for 195-206 (depending on sources) Ukranian prisoners.
I must confess I skimmmed initially, really I peruse such threads for moral discussions as opposed to nitty gritty detail, though of course I’m not averse to that.
2, 5, 6, 20 seem unreasonable demands to me on the face of it, just outright. Others I think it’s reasonable that Israel foot certain bills, others less so. Then most others seem pretty reasonable to me
As per the bolded, is there information as to how these hostages died? It would seem odd to me that Hamas were disposing of the one card they have that actually gives them some leverage. I’m sure some hot-headed members of Hamas have executed their charges, but 50 of a relatively small number to begin with?
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Some of the demands (the ones protecting Hamas members) would be unreasonable if Hamas were the only side that has committed war crimes and other atrocities. But the IDF has not proven to be any better than Hamas, so if Israel demands a complete surrender of Hamas then they would have to open themselves up to a thorough investigation of every crime they've been accused of as well. That includes countless stories that have gone unreported on top of the ones that we already know.
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On February 08 2024 20:01 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2024 11:23 Cerebrate1 wrote:On February 07 2024 21:52 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2024 21:02 Magic Powers wrote:I'm coming around to the idea that Biden is in complete war hawk mode. On a surface level I see absolutely nothing wrong with Hamas' truce offer as proposed in this article. It sounds fantastic to me (if accepted and it actually works). Meanwhile Biden calls it "over the top". What's wrong with the old man? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68225663 Seems reasonable on skimming to me too Here is a further breakdown of Hamas’ proposal: What Hamas offers: 1. A return of the remaining hostages and Israeli bodies (Egypt estimates that about 50 of the hostages are dead now, so that’s about 80 live hostages assuming no more are murdered in the meantime). Hamas also says the releases are contingent on how well they feel Israel is holding up all its side of the bargain. What Hamas demands: 1. 135 day ceasefire 2. Jews are to be banned from entering the Temple Mount (holiest site in Judaism. Currently Muslims can pray there and Jews can visit for non-prayer purposes like tourism) 3. Restoration of the Gaza strip to it’s pre-war condition 4. Complete withdrawal of all IDF forces from the Gaza Strip to the border 5. Complete stop of all IDF arial activity, including surveillance drones 6. The release of all the Palestinian prisoners imprisoned in Israel who are younger than 19 or older than 50, as well as the sick, in addition to 1,500 Palestinian prisoners named by Hamas (of which 500 are serving life sentences for mass murder) 7. Completing the necessary steps to ensure that the prisoners who were released for the offenses for which they were imprisoned are not re-arrested (even if they re-offend like those who were re-arrested since the last time) 8. The introduction of a minimum of 500 aid trucks per day into the Strip, including fuel trucks 9. The return of all the displaced people to their homes all over the Strip without movement restrictions (i.e. no checking to see if any returnees are Hamas militants) 10. The opening of all Gaza crossings for the movement of people and goods without restrictions, including the departure of men, women and children for treatment outside the Gaza Strip without any restrictions (i.e. no more bans on weapons entering the Strip) 11. Supply of heavy engineering equipment for clearing rubble, equipment for civil defense (i.e. Israel should donate guns for Hamas’ police force) and equipment for the Ministry of Health 12. The rehabilitation of the hospitals and bakeries in the entire strip 13. Bringing in of all the equipment needed to set up residential camps, including: 60 thousand temporary residential buildings (trailers and containers) at a rate of 15 thousand per week. The introduction of 200,000 tents at a rate of 50,000 per week 14. The beginning of infrastructure restoration all over the Strip, including water, electricity and communication infrastructures. 15. Approval of a comprehensive plan for the rehabilitation of all the residential buildings, commercial buildings and public buildings that were destroyed as a result of the fighting within a schedule of three years (funds will of course be managed by the local government [Hamas] to line pockets as desired) 16. Renewal of all the humanitarian aid provided to the residents of the Gaza Strip and especially the full functioning of UNRWA - as it was before October 7. 17. Supplying the diesel needed to operate the power plant in Gaza and needed for all sectors in the Gaza Strip. 18. Israel must be forced to meet the needs of the Gaza Strip in the area of electricity and water. 19. A mechanism for keeping Israel out of the Strip (i.e. this is actually a permanent ceasefire) 20. Also, additional prisoners (besides for the 1,500+teens+older+sick already released) will be demanded 45 days in, to guarantee the release of the second batch of Israeli hostages TLDR: Hamas will give ~80 hostages (and some corpses) in exchange for ~2,000+ prisoners, Israel footing the bill for the reconstruction, and Hamas and it’s support networks restored to complete and permanent control of the Strip. For comparison, Russia and Ukraine exchanged prisoners of war a week ago. 195 Russian prisoners were exchanged for 195-206 (depending on sources) Ukranian prisoners. I must confess I skimmmed initially, really I peruse such threads for moral discussions as opposed to nitty gritty detail, though of course I’m not averse to that. 2, 5, 6, 20 seem unreasonable demands to me on the face of it, just outright. Others I think it’s reasonable that Israel foot certain bills, others less so. Then most others seem pretty reasonable to me As per the bolded, is there information as to how these hostages died? It would seem odd to me that Hamas were disposing of the one card they have that actually gives them some leverage. I’m sure some hot-headed members of Hamas have executed their charges, but 50 of a relatively small number to begin with?
Hamas obviously used the Israeli hostages as human shields. As should be clear by now, they're not just evil, they're demons spawned from hell. That means they can't do anything that's in their own best interest, they can literally only do the worst of all evils at all times /s
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Northern Ireland22954 Posts
Aye, I feel I was pretty damn specific on the ones I viewed as unreasonable
2 - Banning Jews from entering the Temple Mount, absolutely unreasonable and shouldn’t be entertained.
5 - No IDF aerial activity. No, completely unreasonable. You’ve just casually sauntered over and murdered 1700 civilians, you can’t demand that some kind of preventative surveillance isn’t present.
6 - Unreasonable again because it’s unconditional, some of those prisoners should be prisoners.
20 - As 6.
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Northern Ireland22954 Posts
On February 08 2024 20:09 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2024 20:01 WombaT wrote:On February 08 2024 11:23 Cerebrate1 wrote:On February 07 2024 21:52 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2024 21:02 Magic Powers wrote:I'm coming around to the idea that Biden is in complete war hawk mode. On a surface level I see absolutely nothing wrong with Hamas' truce offer as proposed in this article. It sounds fantastic to me (if accepted and it actually works). Meanwhile Biden calls it "over the top". What's wrong with the old man? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68225663 Seems reasonable on skimming to me too Here is a further breakdown of Hamas’ proposal: What Hamas offers: 1. A return of the remaining hostages and Israeli bodies (Egypt estimates that about 50 of the hostages are dead now, so that’s about 80 live hostages assuming no more are murdered in the meantime). Hamas also says the releases are contingent on how well they feel Israel is holding up all its side of the bargain. What Hamas demands: 1. 135 day ceasefire 2. Jews are to be banned from entering the Temple Mount (holiest site in Judaism. Currently Muslims can pray there and Jews can visit for non-prayer purposes like tourism) 3. Restoration of the Gaza strip to it’s pre-war condition 4. Complete withdrawal of all IDF forces from the Gaza Strip to the border 5. Complete stop of all IDF arial activity, including surveillance drones 6. The release of all the Palestinian prisoners imprisoned in Israel who are younger than 19 or older than 50, as well as the sick, in addition to 1,500 Palestinian prisoners named by Hamas (of which 500 are serving life sentences for mass murder) 7. Completing the necessary steps to ensure that the prisoners who were released for the offenses for which they were imprisoned are not re-arrested (even if they re-offend like those who were re-arrested since the last time) 8. The introduction of a minimum of 500 aid trucks per day into the Strip, including fuel trucks 9. The return of all the displaced people to their homes all over the Strip without movement restrictions (i.e. no checking to see if any returnees are Hamas militants) 10. The opening of all Gaza crossings for the movement of people and goods without restrictions, including the departure of men, women and children for treatment outside the Gaza Strip without any restrictions (i.e. no more bans on weapons entering the Strip) 11. Supply of heavy engineering equipment for clearing rubble, equipment for civil defense (i.e. Israel should donate guns for Hamas’ police force) and equipment for the Ministry of Health 12. The rehabilitation of the hospitals and bakeries in the entire strip 13. Bringing in of all the equipment needed to set up residential camps, including: 60 thousand temporary residential buildings (trailers and containers) at a rate of 15 thousand per week. The introduction of 200,000 tents at a rate of 50,000 per week 14. The beginning of infrastructure restoration all over the Strip, including water, electricity and communication infrastructures. 15. Approval of a comprehensive plan for the rehabilitation of all the residential buildings, commercial buildings and public buildings that were destroyed as a result of the fighting within a schedule of three years (funds will of course be managed by the local government [Hamas] to line pockets as desired) 16. Renewal of all the humanitarian aid provided to the residents of the Gaza Strip and especially the full functioning of UNRWA - as it was before October 7. 17. Supplying the diesel needed to operate the power plant in Gaza and needed for all sectors in the Gaza Strip. 18. Israel must be forced to meet the needs of the Gaza Strip in the area of electricity and water. 19. A mechanism for keeping Israel out of the Strip (i.e. this is actually a permanent ceasefire) 20. Also, additional prisoners (besides for the 1,500+teens+older+sick already released) will be demanded 45 days in, to guarantee the release of the second batch of Israeli hostages TLDR: Hamas will give ~80 hostages (and some corpses) in exchange for ~2,000+ prisoners, Israel footing the bill for the reconstruction, and Hamas and it’s support networks restored to complete and permanent control of the Strip. For comparison, Russia and Ukraine exchanged prisoners of war a week ago. 195 Russian prisoners were exchanged for 195-206 (depending on sources) Ukranian prisoners. I must confess I skimmmed initially, really I peruse such threads for moral discussions as opposed to nitty gritty detail, though of course I’m not averse to that. 2, 5, 6, 20 seem unreasonable demands to me on the face of it, just outright. Others I think it’s reasonable that Israel foot certain bills, others less so. Then most others seem pretty reasonable to me As per the bolded, is there information as to how these hostages died? It would seem odd to me that Hamas were disposing of the one card they have that actually gives them some leverage. I’m sure some hot-headed members of Hamas have executed their charges, but 50 of a relatively small number to begin with? Hamas obviously used the Israeli hostages as human shields. As should be clear by now, they're not just evil, they're demons spawned from hell. That means they can't do anything that's in their own best interest, they can literally only do the worst of all evils at all times /s
Jesus calm down Jimmy, what’s gotten into you?
I’m curious as to brass tacks what people feel here, and with a nod to Mohdoo’s stance that the situation is so unwinnable that the Palestinians should just give up.
I’m unsure what actual alternatives to such an approach actually exist in this scenario, if you don’t just do the former. The wider international community isn’t going to bat for you, and you’re so militarily outmatched that if you go mano o mano you’ll be scourged from the Earth in a fortnight.
It may be an unpalatable tactic but realistically what are the alternatives? I don’t think Israel has a history that being peaceful and asking nicely is going to do much.
So you’re kind of left with the Mohdoo prescription of saying ‘fuck it I’m out of here’, or you use Hamas’ current tactics. Least from where I’m sitting.
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On February 08 2024 20:16 WombaT wrote:
Aye, I feel I was pretty damn specific on the ones I viewed as unreasonable
2 - Banning Jews from entering the Temple Mount, absolutely unreasonable and shouldn’t be entertained.
5 - No IDF aerial activity. No, completely unreasonable. You’ve just casually sauntered over and murdered 1700 civilians, you can’t demand that some kind of preventative surveillance isn’t present.
6 - Unreasonable again because it’s unconditional, some of those prisoners should be prisoners.
20 - As 6.
I think we should add 7 to the list, that one seems as bad as 6 to me.
But Israel's demands are equally unreasonable, so I wouldn't really place any emphasis on Hamas. This conflict is taking place between two completely unreasonable forces, both demanding a number of unreasonable things and not offering enough in return.
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On February 08 2024 20:23 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2024 20:09 Magic Powers wrote:On February 08 2024 20:01 WombaT wrote:On February 08 2024 11:23 Cerebrate1 wrote:On February 07 2024 21:52 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2024 21:02 Magic Powers wrote:I'm coming around to the idea that Biden is in complete war hawk mode. On a surface level I see absolutely nothing wrong with Hamas' truce offer as proposed in this article. It sounds fantastic to me (if accepted and it actually works). Meanwhile Biden calls it "over the top". What's wrong with the old man? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68225663 Seems reasonable on skimming to me too Here is a further breakdown of Hamas’ proposal: What Hamas offers: 1. A return of the remaining hostages and Israeli bodies (Egypt estimates that about 50 of the hostages are dead now, so that’s about 80 live hostages assuming no more are murdered in the meantime). Hamas also says the releases are contingent on how well they feel Israel is holding up all its side of the bargain. What Hamas demands: 1. 135 day ceasefire 2. Jews are to be banned from entering the Temple Mount (holiest site in Judaism. Currently Muslims can pray there and Jews can visit for non-prayer purposes like tourism) 3. Restoration of the Gaza strip to it’s pre-war condition 4. Complete withdrawal of all IDF forces from the Gaza Strip to the border 5. Complete stop of all IDF arial activity, including surveillance drones 6. The release of all the Palestinian prisoners imprisoned in Israel who are younger than 19 or older than 50, as well as the sick, in addition to 1,500 Palestinian prisoners named by Hamas (of which 500 are serving life sentences for mass murder) 7. Completing the necessary steps to ensure that the prisoners who were released for the offenses for which they were imprisoned are not re-arrested (even if they re-offend like those who were re-arrested since the last time) 8. The introduction of a minimum of 500 aid trucks per day into the Strip, including fuel trucks 9. The return of all the displaced people to their homes all over the Strip without movement restrictions (i.e. no checking to see if any returnees are Hamas militants) 10. The opening of all Gaza crossings for the movement of people and goods without restrictions, including the departure of men, women and children for treatment outside the Gaza Strip without any restrictions (i.e. no more bans on weapons entering the Strip) 11. Supply of heavy engineering equipment for clearing rubble, equipment for civil defense (i.e. Israel should donate guns for Hamas’ police force) and equipment for the Ministry of Health 12. The rehabilitation of the hospitals and bakeries in the entire strip 13. Bringing in of all the equipment needed to set up residential camps, including: 60 thousand temporary residential buildings (trailers and containers) at a rate of 15 thousand per week. The introduction of 200,000 tents at a rate of 50,000 per week 14. The beginning of infrastructure restoration all over the Strip, including water, electricity and communication infrastructures. 15. Approval of a comprehensive plan for the rehabilitation of all the residential buildings, commercial buildings and public buildings that were destroyed as a result of the fighting within a schedule of three years (funds will of course be managed by the local government [Hamas] to line pockets as desired) 16. Renewal of all the humanitarian aid provided to the residents of the Gaza Strip and especially the full functioning of UNRWA - as it was before October 7. 17. Supplying the diesel needed to operate the power plant in Gaza and needed for all sectors in the Gaza Strip. 18. Israel must be forced to meet the needs of the Gaza Strip in the area of electricity and water. 19. A mechanism for keeping Israel out of the Strip (i.e. this is actually a permanent ceasefire) 20. Also, additional prisoners (besides for the 1,500+teens+older+sick already released) will be demanded 45 days in, to guarantee the release of the second batch of Israeli hostages TLDR: Hamas will give ~80 hostages (and some corpses) in exchange for ~2,000+ prisoners, Israel footing the bill for the reconstruction, and Hamas and it’s support networks restored to complete and permanent control of the Strip. For comparison, Russia and Ukraine exchanged prisoners of war a week ago. 195 Russian prisoners were exchanged for 195-206 (depending on sources) Ukranian prisoners. I must confess I skimmmed initially, really I peruse such threads for moral discussions as opposed to nitty gritty detail, though of course I’m not averse to that. 2, 5, 6, 20 seem unreasonable demands to me on the face of it, just outright. Others I think it’s reasonable that Israel foot certain bills, others less so. Then most others seem pretty reasonable to me As per the bolded, is there information as to how these hostages died? It would seem odd to me that Hamas were disposing of the one card they have that actually gives them some leverage. I’m sure some hot-headed members of Hamas have executed their charges, but 50 of a relatively small number to begin with? Hamas obviously used the Israeli hostages as human shields. As should be clear by now, they're not just evil, they're demons spawned from hell. That means they can't do anything that's in their own best interest, they can literally only do the worst of all evils at all times /s Jesus calm down Jimmy, what’s gotten into you? I’m curious as to brass tacks what people feel here, and with a nod to Mohdoo’s stance that the situation is so unwinnable that the Palestinians should just give up. I’m unsure what actual alternatives to such an approach actually exist in this scenario, if you don’t just do the former. The wider international community isn’t going to bat for you, and you’re so militarily outmatched that if you go mano o mano you’ll be scourged from the Earth in a fortnight. It may be an unpalatable tactic but realistically what are the alternatives?
What's gotten into me? The pretense of plenty of people in this thread pisses me off. People acting as if Israel doesn't have the vast majority of innocent blood on its hand all throughout the conflict since day one. Hamas' crimes are brought up frequently, while those of Israel go unmentioned. Hamas is depicted as evil through and through, while the IDF is depicted as just another military force.
It's a farce of the highest order.
Edit: or maybe you thought this was JimmiC's response, and not mine? I was being sarcastic.
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Israel has been committing a huge war crime in the West bank for decades by aiding Jewish settlers in their displacement of Palestinians. There is no world in which it is acceptable to filter this conflict exclusively through the lense of October 7 and not also through that of previous crimes against Palestinians.
People still don't want to accept that Hamas is a response to Israel's crimes. That won't stop me from saying it. Hamas is a response to Israel's crimes.
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Northern Ireland22954 Posts
On February 08 2024 20:27 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2024 20:23 WombaT wrote:On February 08 2024 20:09 Magic Powers wrote:On February 08 2024 20:01 WombaT wrote:On February 08 2024 11:23 Cerebrate1 wrote:On February 07 2024 21:52 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2024 21:02 Magic Powers wrote:I'm coming around to the idea that Biden is in complete war hawk mode. On a surface level I see absolutely nothing wrong with Hamas' truce offer as proposed in this article. It sounds fantastic to me (if accepted and it actually works). Meanwhile Biden calls it "over the top". What's wrong with the old man? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68225663 Seems reasonable on skimming to me too Here is a further breakdown of Hamas’ proposal: What Hamas offers: 1. A return of the remaining hostages and Israeli bodies (Egypt estimates that about 50 of the hostages are dead now, so that’s about 80 live hostages assuming no more are murdered in the meantime). Hamas also says the releases are contingent on how well they feel Israel is holding up all its side of the bargain. What Hamas demands: 1. 135 day ceasefire 2. Jews are to be banned from entering the Temple Mount (holiest site in Judaism. Currently Muslims can pray there and Jews can visit for non-prayer purposes like tourism) 3. Restoration of the Gaza strip to it’s pre-war condition 4. Complete withdrawal of all IDF forces from the Gaza Strip to the border 5. Complete stop of all IDF arial activity, including surveillance drones 6. The release of all the Palestinian prisoners imprisoned in Israel who are younger than 19 or older than 50, as well as the sick, in addition to 1,500 Palestinian prisoners named by Hamas (of which 500 are serving life sentences for mass murder) 7. Completing the necessary steps to ensure that the prisoners who were released for the offenses for which they were imprisoned are not re-arrested (even if they re-offend like those who were re-arrested since the last time) 8. The introduction of a minimum of 500 aid trucks per day into the Strip, including fuel trucks 9. The return of all the displaced people to their homes all over the Strip without movement restrictions (i.e. no checking to see if any returnees are Hamas militants) 10. The opening of all Gaza crossings for the movement of people and goods without restrictions, including the departure of men, women and children for treatment outside the Gaza Strip without any restrictions (i.e. no more bans on weapons entering the Strip) 11. Supply of heavy engineering equipment for clearing rubble, equipment for civil defense (i.e. Israel should donate guns for Hamas’ police force) and equipment for the Ministry of Health 12. The rehabilitation of the hospitals and bakeries in the entire strip 13. Bringing in of all the equipment needed to set up residential camps, including: 60 thousand temporary residential buildings (trailers and containers) at a rate of 15 thousand per week. The introduction of 200,000 tents at a rate of 50,000 per week 14. The beginning of infrastructure restoration all over the Strip, including water, electricity and communication infrastructures. 15. Approval of a comprehensive plan for the rehabilitation of all the residential buildings, commercial buildings and public buildings that were destroyed as a result of the fighting within a schedule of three years (funds will of course be managed by the local government [Hamas] to line pockets as desired) 16. Renewal of all the humanitarian aid provided to the residents of the Gaza Strip and especially the full functioning of UNRWA - as it was before October 7. 17. Supplying the diesel needed to operate the power plant in Gaza and needed for all sectors in the Gaza Strip. 18. Israel must be forced to meet the needs of the Gaza Strip in the area of electricity and water. 19. A mechanism for keeping Israel out of the Strip (i.e. this is actually a permanent ceasefire) 20. Also, additional prisoners (besides for the 1,500+teens+older+sick already released) will be demanded 45 days in, to guarantee the release of the second batch of Israeli hostages TLDR: Hamas will give ~80 hostages (and some corpses) in exchange for ~2,000+ prisoners, Israel footing the bill for the reconstruction, and Hamas and it’s support networks restored to complete and permanent control of the Strip. For comparison, Russia and Ukraine exchanged prisoners of war a week ago. 195 Russian prisoners were exchanged for 195-206 (depending on sources) Ukranian prisoners. I must confess I skimmmed initially, really I peruse such threads for moral discussions as opposed to nitty gritty detail, though of course I’m not averse to that. 2, 5, 6, 20 seem unreasonable demands to me on the face of it, just outright. Others I think it’s reasonable that Israel foot certain bills, others less so. Then most others seem pretty reasonable to me As per the bolded, is there information as to how these hostages died? It would seem odd to me that Hamas were disposing of the one card they have that actually gives them some leverage. I’m sure some hot-headed members of Hamas have executed their charges, but 50 of a relatively small number to begin with? Hamas obviously used the Israeli hostages as human shields. As should be clear by now, they're not just evil, they're demons spawned from hell. That means they can't do anything that's in their own best interest, they can literally only do the worst of all evils at all times /s Jesus calm down Jimmy, what’s gotten into you? I’m curious as to brass tacks what people feel here, and with a nod to Mohdoo’s stance that the situation is so unwinnable that the Palestinians should just give up. I’m unsure what actual alternatives to such an approach actually exist in this scenario, if you don’t just do the former. The wider international community isn’t going to bat for you, and you’re so militarily outmatched that if you go mano o mano you’ll be scourged from the Earth in a fortnight. It may be an unpalatable tactic but realistically what are the alternatives? What's gotten into me? The pretense of plenty of people in this thread pisses me off. People acting as if Israel doesn't have the vast majority of innocent blood on its hand all throughout the conflict since day one. Hamas' crimes are brought up frequently, while those of Israel go unmentioned. Hamas is depicted as evil through and through, while the IDF is depicted as just another military force. It's a farce of the highest order. Edit: or maybe you thought this was JimmiC's response, and not mine? I was being sarcastic.
It was a joke riffing off your preamble to the /s tag. Apologies if that wasn’t clear and apologies to Jimmy too I was just bantering.
I don’t like the word evil, I feel it’s too evocative, it splits things too much between the reasonable and the unreasonable quite frequently. Just as a caveat, I think the amount of humans who are genuinely properly, psychopathically evil is, absolutely tiny. Fuck I lived in a psych ward for a year, I’ve still yet to encounter such a creature.
But to me evil under the guise of civility or acceptable norms is absolutely, 100% the same as the evil perpetrated by rogues and villains operating outside of those norms.
People are perfectly capable of being otherwise good folks but committing absolutely heinous acts around a framework of acceptability, history should have taught us that lesson already.
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Northern Ireland22954 Posts
On February 08 2024 20:46 Magic Powers wrote:
Israel has been committing a huge war crime in the West bank for decades by aiding Jewish settlers in their displacement of Palestinians. There is no world in which it is acceptable to filter this conflict exclusively through the lense of October 7 and not also through that of previous crimes against Palestinians.
People still don't want to accept that Hamas is a response to Israel's crimes. That won't stop me from saying it. Hamas is a response to Israel's crimes.
Agree with the first part.
The second part is more debatable, I do concede that violence begets violence and all that. But Hamas isn’t purely a nationalist organisation pushing for autonomy and territory, there is a wider anti-Semitism baked in there, and indeed with some of Israel’s neighbours, that supersedes stock nationalism or a desire for self-determination.
I mean I apologise for overdoing the analogies, they’re crude and don’t always 100% fit, but sometimes you gotta go with what you know. The IRA in my country wanted freedom from the UK, they used violence to this end, but there was never any kind of ‘exterminate the British’ aspect to it either, and in a wider sense the Irish frequently migrate to the exciting bit lights of a London, and you get a bit of movement in the opposite direction. There is no great hate between the peoples. There wasn’t even at the absolute peak of the Troubles, I mean I’m sure some Irish person got beat up for being Irish over in England, or vice versa, but there was never really any visceral hatred.
This conflict, there absolutely is that element.
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On February 08 2024 20:48 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2024 20:27 Magic Powers wrote:On February 08 2024 20:23 WombaT wrote:On February 08 2024 20:09 Magic Powers wrote:On February 08 2024 20:01 WombaT wrote:On February 08 2024 11:23 Cerebrate1 wrote:On February 07 2024 21:52 WombaT wrote:On February 07 2024 21:02 Magic Powers wrote:I'm coming around to the idea that Biden is in complete war hawk mode. On a surface level I see absolutely nothing wrong with Hamas' truce offer as proposed in this article. It sounds fantastic to me (if accepted and it actually works). Meanwhile Biden calls it "over the top". What's wrong with the old man? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68225663 Seems reasonable on skimming to me too Here is a further breakdown of Hamas’ proposal: What Hamas offers: 1. A return of the remaining hostages and Israeli bodies (Egypt estimates that about 50 of the hostages are dead now, so that’s about 80 live hostages assuming no more are murdered in the meantime). Hamas also says the releases are contingent on how well they feel Israel is holding up all its side of the bargain. What Hamas demands: 1. 135 day ceasefire 2. Jews are to be banned from entering the Temple Mount (holiest site in Judaism. Currently Muslims can pray there and Jews can visit for non-prayer purposes like tourism) 3. Restoration of the Gaza strip to it’s pre-war condition 4. Complete withdrawal of all IDF forces from the Gaza Strip to the border 5. Complete stop of all IDF arial activity, including surveillance drones 6. The release of all the Palestinian prisoners imprisoned in Israel who are younger than 19 or older than 50, as well as the sick, in addition to 1,500 Palestinian prisoners named by Hamas (of which 500 are serving life sentences for mass murder) 7. Completing the necessary steps to ensure that the prisoners who were released for the offenses for which they were imprisoned are not re-arrested (even if they re-offend like those who were re-arrested since the last time) 8. The introduction of a minimum of 500 aid trucks per day into the Strip, including fuel trucks 9. The return of all the displaced people to their homes all over the Strip without movement restrictions (i.e. no checking to see if any returnees are Hamas militants) 10. The opening of all Gaza crossings for the movement of people and goods without restrictions, including the departure of men, women and children for treatment outside the Gaza Strip without any restrictions (i.e. no more bans on weapons entering the Strip) 11. Supply of heavy engineering equipment for clearing rubble, equipment for civil defense (i.e. Israel should donate guns for Hamas’ police force) and equipment for the Ministry of Health 12. The rehabilitation of the hospitals and bakeries in the entire strip 13. Bringing in of all the equipment needed to set up residential camps, including: 60 thousand temporary residential buildings (trailers and containers) at a rate of 15 thousand per week. The introduction of 200,000 tents at a rate of 50,000 per week 14. The beginning of infrastructure restoration all over the Strip, including water, electricity and communication infrastructures. 15. Approval of a comprehensive plan for the rehabilitation of all the residential buildings, commercial buildings and public buildings that were destroyed as a result of the fighting within a schedule of three years (funds will of course be managed by the local government [Hamas] to line pockets as desired) 16. Renewal of all the humanitarian aid provided to the residents of the Gaza Strip and especially the full functioning of UNRWA - as it was before October 7. 17. Supplying the diesel needed to operate the power plant in Gaza and needed for all sectors in the Gaza Strip. 18. Israel must be forced to meet the needs of the Gaza Strip in the area of electricity and water. 19. A mechanism for keeping Israel out of the Strip (i.e. this is actually a permanent ceasefire) 20. Also, additional prisoners (besides for the 1,500+teens+older+sick already released) will be demanded 45 days in, to guarantee the release of the second batch of Israeli hostages TLDR: Hamas will give ~80 hostages (and some corpses) in exchange for ~2,000+ prisoners, Israel footing the bill for the reconstruction, and Hamas and it’s support networks restored to complete and permanent control of the Strip. For comparison, Russia and Ukraine exchanged prisoners of war a week ago. 195 Russian prisoners were exchanged for 195-206 (depending on sources) Ukranian prisoners. I must confess I skimmmed initially, really I peruse such threads for moral discussions as opposed to nitty gritty detail, though of course I’m not averse to that. 2, 5, 6, 20 seem unreasonable demands to me on the face of it, just outright. Others I think it’s reasonable that Israel foot certain bills, others less so. Then most others seem pretty reasonable to me As per the bolded, is there information as to how these hostages died? It would seem odd to me that Hamas were disposing of the one card they have that actually gives them some leverage. I’m sure some hot-headed members of Hamas have executed their charges, but 50 of a relatively small number to begin with? Hamas obviously used the Israeli hostages as human shields. As should be clear by now, they're not just evil, they're demons spawned from hell. That means they can't do anything that's in their own best interest, they can literally only do the worst of all evils at all times /s Jesus calm down Jimmy, what’s gotten into you? I’m curious as to brass tacks what people feel here, and with a nod to Mohdoo’s stance that the situation is so unwinnable that the Palestinians should just give up. I’m unsure what actual alternatives to such an approach actually exist in this scenario, if you don’t just do the former. The wider international community isn’t going to bat for you, and you’re so militarily outmatched that if you go mano o mano you’ll be scourged from the Earth in a fortnight. It may be an unpalatable tactic but realistically what are the alternatives? What's gotten into me? The pretense of plenty of people in this thread pisses me off. People acting as if Israel doesn't have the vast majority of innocent blood on its hand all throughout the conflict since day one. Hamas' crimes are brought up frequently, while those of Israel go unmentioned. Hamas is depicted as evil through and through, while the IDF is depicted as just another military force. It's a farce of the highest order. Edit: or maybe you thought this was JimmiC's response, and not mine? I was being sarcastic. It was a joke riffing off your preamble to the /s tag. Apologies if that wasn’t clear and apologies to Jimmy too I was just bantering. I don’t like the word evil, I feel it’s too evocative, it splits things too much between the reasonable and the unreasonable quite frequently. Just as a caveat, I think the amount of humans who are genuinely properly, psychopathically evil is, absolutely tiny. Fuck I lived in a psych ward for a year, I’ve still yet to encounter such a creature. But to me evil under the guise of civility or acceptable norms is absolutely, 100% the same as the evil perpetrated by rogues and villains operating outside of those norms. People are perfectly capable of being otherwise good folks but committing absolutely heinous acts around a framework of acceptability, history should have taught us that lesson already.
Absolutely agree. Although I'd say the greater evil is the one that can't be distinguished from goodness. The evil successfully disguised as a saint is the most dangerous one. Hamas is an obvious evil, blatant as sunlight. The IDF, Netanyahu and Jewish settlers are a disguised evil, operating under various pretenses. Both types lead to the same outcome: thousands of deaths and the suffering of millions. But the evil coming out of Israel is the one that has priority for me because it has successfully disguised itself and people keep being fooled regardless of a mountain of evidence. Hamas can't fool us.
The fact that "evil" is a term you'd prefer not using is understandable, it has its limitations. But I came to believe that some people are strictly evil, and Hamas are among those, the ones funding Hamas from Qatar and Iran etc., and also Netanyahu, most of the Jewish settlers, and most of the IDF. All of these people are evil in my book. They've all had their chance to prove that they're not evil, and they've all failed.
The BBC just now added to the hatred by painting Hamas' offer as something other than unreasonable. They omitted the obvious points of contention that you listed. Biden was right and the BBC misinformed us. I'll remember that. I'm therefore taking back what I said about Biden, and I stand by what I said about him previously. He's not handling the conflict well and I wish he'd put a lot of pressure on Israel. But if he's a war hawk it certainly wouldn't be evident from Hamas' recent truce offer. That'd be misinformation.
The most important element of this conflict, to me, is that Israel's crimes need to be exposed. Hamas' crimes have been exposed plenty, people can't stop talking about them. But those of the IDF and the settlers go unmentioned most of the time. It's rare that the big news outlets report a thing about them. This is why I'm so adamantly pushing back against the narrative that peace offers (edit: failed offers) are entirely Hamas' fault. Israel's administration has an equal hand in it. They've rejected investigations into their crimes and they have no intention of rolling back their West bank policy. This is unacceptable and it should be mentioned in the same breath as Hamas' unwillingness to surrender.
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On February 08 2024 21:00 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2024 20:46 Magic Powers wrote:
Israel has been committing a huge war crime in the West bank for decades by aiding Jewish settlers in their displacement of Palestinians. There is no world in which it is acceptable to filter this conflict exclusively through the lense of October 7 and not also through that of previous crimes against Palestinians.
People still don't want to accept that Hamas is a response to Israel's crimes. That won't stop me from saying it. Hamas is a response to Israel's crimes. Agree with the first part. The second part is more debatable, I do concede that violence begets violence and all that. But Hamas isn’t purely a nationalist organisation pushing for autonomy and territory, there is a wider anti-Semitism baked in there, and indeed with some of Israel’s neighbours, that supersedes stock nationalism or a desire for self-determination. I mean I apologise for overdoing the analogies, they’re crude and don’t always 100% fit, but sometimes you gotta go with what you know. The IRA in my country wanted freedom from the UK, they used violence to this end, but there was never any kind of ‘exterminate the British’ aspect to it either, and in a wider sense the Irish frequently migrate to the exciting bit lights of a London, and you get a bit of movement in the opposite direction. There is no great hate between the peoples. There wasn’t even at the absolute peak of the Troubles, I mean I’m sure some Irish person got beat up for being Irish over in England, or vice versa, but there was never really any visceral hatred. This conflict, there absolutely is that element.
You can't compare the current state of Israel-Palestine conflict to the Troubles, you have to go back 50 years if you want to make that comparison. The anti-Israeli resistance didn't start off as a violent campaign of terrorism, there were decades of loosely organized, non-violent protests and public disobedience leading to the first Intifada at which point the various resistance movements became somewhat more organized and numerous -- but even after IDF started killing Palestinians by the hundreds, the hate-fueled terror-style attacks were incredibly rare until well into the 90s.
Back in 1980s, Palestinians already had way more grievances against the Israelis than the Irish did against the British yet there was no 'great hate' between peoples, at large. There was no 'exterminate the Jewish' aspect to it outside of some extremely marginal fringe lunatics that had no real influence at the time. All of that came later, many thousand bodies and ruined homes later.
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Northern Ireland22954 Posts
On February 08 2024 22:59 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2024 21:00 WombaT wrote:On February 08 2024 20:46 Magic Powers wrote:
Israel has been committing a huge war crime in the West bank for decades by aiding Jewish settlers in their displacement of Palestinians. There is no world in which it is acceptable to filter this conflict exclusively through the lense of October 7 and not also through that of previous crimes against Palestinians.
People still don't want to accept that Hamas is a response to Israel's crimes. That won't stop me from saying it. Hamas is a response to Israel's crimes. Agree with the first part. The second part is more debatable, I do concede that violence begets violence and all that. But Hamas isn’t purely a nationalist organisation pushing for autonomy and territory, there is a wider anti-Semitism baked in there, and indeed with some of Israel’s neighbours, that supersedes stock nationalism or a desire for self-determination. I mean I apologise for overdoing the analogies, they’re crude and don’t always 100% fit, but sometimes you gotta go with what you know. The IRA in my country wanted freedom from the UK, they used violence to this end, but there was never any kind of ‘exterminate the British’ aspect to it either, and in a wider sense the Irish frequently migrate to the exciting bit lights of a London, and you get a bit of movement in the opposite direction. There is no great hate between the peoples. There wasn’t even at the absolute peak of the Troubles, I mean I’m sure some Irish person got beat up for being Irish over in England, or vice versa, but there was never really any visceral hatred. This conflict, there absolutely is that element. You can't compare the current state of Israel-Palestine conflict to the Troubles, you have to go back 50 years if you want to make that comparison. The anti-Israeli resistance didn't start off as a violent campaign of terrorism, there were decades of loosely organized, non-violent protests and public disobedience leading to the first Intifada at which point the various resistance movements became somewhat more organized and numerous -- but even after IDF started killing Palestinians by the hundreds, the hate-fueled terror-style attacks were incredibly rare until well into the 90s. Back in 1980s, Palestinians already had way more grievances against the Israelis than the Irish did against the British yet there was no 'great hate' between peoples, at large. There was no 'exterminate the Jewish' aspect to it outside of some extremely marginal fringe lunatics that had no real influence at the time. All of that came later, many thousand bodies and ruined homes later.
I wasn’t directly comparing them on similarities, as much as differences.
The bolded is basically it, or why ETA greatly downsized the violence in their pursuit of Basque independence. Nationalism and self-determination is a powerful motivator but, lacking ruinous oppression there are limits as to what it can facilitate.
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On February 08 2024 22:59 Salazarz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2024 21:00 WombaT wrote:On February 08 2024 20:46 Magic Powers wrote:
Israel has been committing a huge war crime in the West bank for decades by aiding Jewish settlers in their displacement of Palestinians. There is no world in which it is acceptable to filter this conflict exclusively through the lense of October 7 and not also through that of previous crimes against Palestinians.
People still don't want to accept that Hamas is a response to Israel's crimes. That won't stop me from saying it. Hamas is a response to Israel's crimes. Agree with the first part. The second part is more debatable, I do concede that violence begets violence and all that. But Hamas isn’t purely a nationalist organisation pushing for autonomy and territory, there is a wider anti-Semitism baked in there, and indeed with some of Israel’s neighbours, that supersedes stock nationalism or a desire for self-determination. I mean I apologise for overdoing the analogies, they’re crude and don’t always 100% fit, but sometimes you gotta go with what you know. The IRA in my country wanted freedom from the UK, they used violence to this end, but there was never any kind of ‘exterminate the British’ aspect to it either, and in a wider sense the Irish frequently migrate to the exciting bit lights of a London, and you get a bit of movement in the opposite direction. There is no great hate between the peoples. There wasn’t even at the absolute peak of the Troubles, I mean I’m sure some Irish person got beat up for being Irish over in England, or vice versa, but there was never really any visceral hatred. This conflict, there absolutely is that element. You can't compare the current state of Israel-Palestine conflict to the Troubles, you have to go back 50 years if you want to make that comparison. The anti-Israeli resistance didn't start off as a violent campaign of terrorism, there were decades of loosely organized, non-violent protests and public disobedience leading to the first Intifada at which point the various resistance movements became somewhat more organized and numerous -- but even after IDF started killing Palestinians by the hundreds, the hate-fueled terror-style attacks were incredibly rare until well into the 90s. Back in 1980s, Palestinians already had way more grievances against the Israelis than the Irish did against the British yet there was no 'great hate' between peoples, at large. There was no 'exterminate the Jewish' aspect to it outside of some extremely marginal fringe lunatics that had no real influence at the time. All of that came later, many thousand bodies and ruined homes later.
That's nonsense. The fedayeen were anything but peaceful and have existed almost from the moment the first Arab-Isreali war ended. The PLO was also founded in the 60s. It called for the destruction of Israel and performed numerous attacks, including terroristic attacks. Additionally it was involved in armed struggle on Jordan and Lebanon. All before the first intifada.
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On February 09 2024 03:17 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On February 08 2024 22:59 Salazarz wrote:On February 08 2024 21:00 WombaT wrote:On February 08 2024 20:46 Magic Powers wrote:
Israel has been committing a huge war crime in the West bank for decades by aiding Jewish settlers in their displacement of Palestinians. There is no world in which it is acceptable to filter this conflict exclusively through the lense of October 7 and not also through that of previous crimes against Palestinians.
People still don't want to accept that Hamas is a response to Israel's crimes. That won't stop me from saying it. Hamas is a response to Israel's crimes. Agree with the first part. The second part is more debatable, I do concede that violence begets violence and all that. But Hamas isn’t purely a nationalist organisation pushing for autonomy and territory, there is a wider anti-Semitism baked in there, and indeed with some of Israel’s neighbours, that supersedes stock nationalism or a desire for self-determination. I mean I apologise for overdoing the analogies, they’re crude and don’t always 100% fit, but sometimes you gotta go with what you know. The IRA in my country wanted freedom from the UK, they used violence to this end, but there was never any kind of ‘exterminate the British’ aspect to it either, and in a wider sense the Irish frequently migrate to the exciting bit lights of a London, and you get a bit of movement in the opposite direction. There is no great hate between the peoples. There wasn’t even at the absolute peak of the Troubles, I mean I’m sure some Irish person got beat up for being Irish over in England, or vice versa, but there was never really any visceral hatred. This conflict, there absolutely is that element. You can't compare the current state of Israel-Palestine conflict to the Troubles, you have to go back 50 years if you want to make that comparison. The anti-Israeli resistance didn't start off as a violent campaign of terrorism, there were decades of loosely organized, non-violent protests and public disobedience leading to the first Intifada at which point the various resistance movements became somewhat more organized and numerous -- but even after IDF started killing Palestinians by the hundreds, the hate-fueled terror-style attacks were incredibly rare until well into the 90s. Back in 1980s, Palestinians already had way more grievances against the Israelis than the Irish did against the British yet there was no 'great hate' between peoples, at large. There was no 'exterminate the Jewish' aspect to it outside of some extremely marginal fringe lunatics that had no real influence at the time. All of that came later, many thousand bodies and ruined homes later. That's nonsense. The fedayeen were anything but peaceful and have existed almost from the moment the first Arab-Isreali war ended. The PLO was also founded in the 60s. It called for the destruction of Israel and performed numerous attacks, including terroristic attacks. Additionally it was involved in armed struggle on Jordan and Lebanon. All before the first intifada.
Salazarz didn't say anything about the Fedayeen. He was talking about anti-Israel resistance at large.
The PLO with its call to destruction in 1964 had various sub groups. Some were extremists and others were moderate.
The level of terrorism against Israel has increased over time. What has also happened over time is Israel's long occupation of South Lebanon until 2000 and the continued occupation of the West bank.
These are all the terrorist attacks against Israel and Israeli citizens in chronological order:
https://www.johnstonsarchive.net/terrorism/terrisrael.html
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Maybe everyone who partakes in this topic should simply always post a "current % blame level starting from Day 0 in terms of history or whatever starting point he deems reasonable"..
Because to be quite honest sometimes I feel like that is what it is all about. And the crazy thing is:
Magic Powers posts something and JimmiC thinks after reading that post that MP is somwhere around 90 % blame Israel/IDF 10% blame Palestine/Hamas whilst when asked MP would say he is at 55% Israel / 45 % Palestine..
and vice versa.. with several of JimmiCs posts MP is reading.. he comes to the conclusion that Jimmi thinks Hamas/Palestine is 95% to blame and Israel/IDF is 5% to blame.. whilst maybe Jimmi is more like 60% vs 40 %..
My point is: I think the main peeps posting in here are maybe really constantly missunderstanding each other.
Like imagine if after every post anyone simply writes what he thinks about the conflict in terms of "fault/blame/responsibiliy/whatever u want to define it precisely as"? I think it would change things.
And ofc these numbers can and should change. e.g. for me personally shortly after Oct 7 the % of blame shifted heavily towards hamas.. let's say P(Palestine) 60 / I(Israel) 40.. however now Im almost at P 50 / I 50 due to the retaliation being quite bad and creating many unnecessery suffering..
I know this is rather long and maybe confusing.. but just saying.. sometimes it feels like when pushed to state the %'s .. things simply make sense and the countless texts and replies simply feel obsolete..
Like I would be genuinely curious what it would change. Magic Powers, JimmiC, WombaT, Salazar (ofc many others) are extremely active in this particular topic.
And things got (and are) extremely heated. But to me there seems to be really an issue of understanding truly what the other person means. I know this sounds sus/weird and I dont blame anyone not for doing it but it would really interest me (the % whos to blame thing).
Like it really really bothers me that both things seem to be true at the same time: JimmiC (lets say Pro Israel) and Magic Powers (lets say Pro Palestine) post something were the average reader is like "omg that sounds very pro one side" but when asked to give numbers (obv hypothetical and I could be wrong) both of them would reply with "aehm it is very close a couple of % for the fraction I am pro with or seeing as a lesser culprit)..
Isnt that weird?
Out of curiosity what do u think in terms of "suffering"? (Palestinians vs Israelis) Id say it is a P (95%) I (5%) there. What does it mean? Im not sure. But it has to have some meaning.
Generally curious: Give me you P% I% for who is at fault/the culprit/responsible & give me your P% I% suffering..
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Northern Ireland22954 Posts
On February 09 2024 08:37 FriedrichNietzsche wrote:
Maybe everyone who partakes in this topic should simply always post a "current % blame level starting from Day 0 in terms of history or whatever starting point he deems reasonable"..
Because to be quite honest sometimes I feel like that is what it is all about. And the crazy thing is:
Magic Powers posts something and JimmiC thinks after reading that post that MP is somwhere around 90 % blame Israel/IDF 10% blame Palestine/Hamas whilst when asked MP would say he is at 55% Israel / 45 % Palestine..
and vice versa.. with several of JimmiCs posts MP is reading.. he comes to the conclusion that Jimmi thinks Hamas/Palestine is 95% to blame and Israel/IDF is 5% to blame.. whilst maybe Jimmi is more like 60% vs 40 %..
My point is: I think the main peeps posting in here are maybe really constantly missunderstanding each other.
Like imagine if after every post anyone simply writes what he thinks about the conflict in terms of "fault/blame/responsibiliy/whatever u want to define it precisely as"? I think it would change things.
And ofc these numbers can and should change. e.g. for me personally shortly after Oct 7 the % of blame shifted heavily towards hamas.. let's say P(Palestine) 60 / I(Israel) 40.. however now Im almost at P 50 / I 50 due to the retaliation being quite bad and creating many unnecessery suffering..
I know this is rather long and maybe confusing.. but just saying.. sometimes it feels like when pushed to state the %'s .. things simply make sense and the countless texts and replies simply feel obsolete..
Like I would be genuinely curious what it would change. Magic Powers, JimmiC, WombaT, Salazar (ofc many others) are extremely active in this particular topic.
And things got (and are) extremely heated. But to me there seems to be really an issue of understanding truly what the other person means. I know this sounds sus/weird and I dont blame anyone not for doing it but it would really interest me (the % whos to blame thing).
Like it really really bothers me that both things seem to be true at the same time: JimmiC (lets say Pro Israel) and Magic Powers (lets say Pro Palestine) post something were the average reader is like "omg that sounds very pro one side" but when asked to give numbers (obv hypothetical and I could be wrong) both of them would reply with "aehm it is very close a couple of % for the fraction I am pro with or seeing as a lesser culprit)..
Isnt that weird?
Out of curiosity what do u think in terms of "suffering"? (Palestinians vs Israelis) Id say it is a P (95%) I (5%) there. What does it mean? Im not sure. But it has to have some meaning.
Generally curious: Give me you P% I% for who is at fault/the culprit/responsible & give me your P% I% suffering..
I’d say blame can be pretty evenly proportioned, add in to that neighbours, as well as the British at the end of their hold of the territory and international powers that helped establish a state in this form in a region where it was always going to be problematic.
Although this is somewhat complicated by power and other dynamics.
Joe Palestinian and Jane Israeli might both be equally hawkish and thus split the blame for the continuation of the conflict 50/50. But if you factor in the former lives in a closed-off active bomb site with pretty bleak prospects, it’s more explicable even if ultimately that doesn’t shift the ‘blame percentage’ numerically.
As for the bolded, for better or worse I’d actually argue we understand each other pretty well in here. It’s not dipping into a Facebook or Reddit post, you’re talking folks who’ve been shooting the breeze on politics in a relatively small forum for years.
So not only do you get the content of a post, you get all that added context about who’s saying it, what their general outlook on life and values are, and why they’re saying it, in addition to what they’re saying.
This can add to fractiousness, at times. Which in fairness I’m one of the worst for. But I think most have a pretty good gauge on what other people are saying, and indeed why.
Where issues arise is in folks not owning their positions and why they hold them, and getting irked that others see it pretty clearly. Be it conscious denial, or just genuinely having a gap in their knowledge of self.
It may seem a bit counter-intuitive but I feel conflict arises from most posters knowing each other very well indeed (in this context) and not from ignorance.
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