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On February 02 2024 16:11 Cerebrate1 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2024 04:11 GreenHorizons wrote:On February 02 2024 03:43 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Al Jazeera deleted their original tweet. But have now put another confirming the previous one, still no deal. Israel has apparently agreed Hamas is the holdout still. Qatari Foreign Ministry spokesman: Hamas received the ceasefire proposal in a positive atmosphere and we are awaiting their response. AJ has anonymous officials saying Israel's government signed off on the framework (a specific deal would come after) Al Jazeera’s Mohammed Jamjoom, reporting from Tel Aviv, said anonymous Israeli officials confirmed that the government signed off to a deal that was presented to Hamas. This includes a pause in fighting and the release of Israeli captives in Gaza in exchange for thousands of Palestinian prisoners. And the very public quote of Israel's PM indicating the opposite. Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Tuesday said Israel would continue its war in Gaza until “absolute victory” over Hamas.
He ruled out releasing “thousands” of Palestinian prisoners as part of any deal to halt the fighting and said the army would not withdraw from Gaza.
“I would like to make it clear… We will not withdraw the IDF [army] from the Gaza Strip and we will not release thousands of terrorists. None of this will happen,” www.aljazeera.com Those points aren't contradictory. In fact they just highlight the explanation I made a few pages back, just after your last post on that topic. Israel doesn't want a permanent ceasefire because that means not eliminating Hamas as the governing power over Gaza. That is what Bibi is saying in your quote. "Israel would continue its war in Gaza until “absolute victory” over Hamas." Israel is quite happy however, with a temporary ceasefire in exchange for hostages (cus then they can finish Hamas after the break anyways). That is exactly what your Al Jazeera source says they proposed. "This includes a pause in fighting and the release of Israeli captives in Gaza"
Setting aside for a moment the longevity of a ceasefire, there's the problem of the Palestinian prisoners being released being part of what Netanyahu's government is supposedly agreeing to and Netanyahu saying explicitly that it will not happen.
So yeah, they are contradictory.
I am curious about your thoughts on this though:
Over the past several weeks, the IDF has been razing Palestinian homes along the border to establish the buffer zone
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On January 31 2024 12:12 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2024 09:49 Cerebrate1 wrote:On January 31 2024 00:14 WombaT wrote:On January 30 2024 22:17 Branch.AUT wrote:On January 30 2024 10:02 WombaT wrote:On January 30 2024 05:19 Magic Powers wrote:On January 30 2024 04:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 29 2024 21:27 Magic Powers wrote:
30 000 people are employed at the UNRWA, mostly Palestinians. Before an investigation has even taken place they've fired 12 of them over the accusations of participating in the October 7 attack. An investigation is currently underway.
As a consequence, funding to the entire organization has been halted.
I can't say I'm surprised. While Israel rejects every investigation into IDF conduct and yet continues to receive international aid, the UNRWA immediately conducts an investigation and fires its employees yet has international aid withdrawn. This is despite the UNRWA being a humanitarian organization that saves peoples lives while the IDF causes tens of thousands of deaths.
Amazing priorities of the countries supporting Israel. Important to note it's essentially the only functional humanitarian organization left in Gaza, so it's basically the US reinvigorating Israel's pursuit to collectively punish Palestinians. And the consequence of that collective punishment will be more adversity, more hatred and more conflict. It's counterproductive to withhold funding since those considered to be guilty have already been removed and the investigation is ongoing. That should've been the only thing required to demonstrate goodwill, but apparently it wasn't enough. The UNRWA is being held to an unrealistically high standard. They're predominantly Palestinians, so a tiny overlap with extremists is practically unavoidable. If funding to the entire org gets withdrawn every single time individual members take part in terrorist activity, that would lead to a collapse of vast amounts of humanitarian efforts towards Palestinians. You can bomb civilians on the off chance you nail an extremist, but you can’t give aid to civilians on the off chance some of it goes to an extremist, or there are extremists in the aid org. You know the guy with the guns can just take ALL of the aid, and give nothing to the general population right? And then give it to his other armed friends. While everyone else has to starve? And then,as bonus they can just point the finger at the bad guys, and say its their fault that everyones starving right now. Works wonders for recruitment too. Take this weapon, kill some baddies, we'll give your family some food. Keep killing, we keep giving food. Humanitarian aid for the general population is awesome and should 100% be encouraged. Aid through the hands of an oppressor, becomes a conflict driving tool. I don't know who actually has their hands on the aid first in palestine. Neither does anyone else here. I trust that the the people who brought you PRISM know tho. I hope they act accotdingly when deciding if aid is to be handed out. You don’t know but you’re postulating a rather specific hypothetical? I doubt Hamas would enjoy the support they do if they were hoarding and dictating where basic humanitarian supplies go. Even with deflecting ultimate blame to Israel, or attempting to there’s still a limit on how far you can push it. Blackmailing people for basic sustenance in order to recruit them seems to cross that line IMO. Even de facto using people as human shields you can justify with the cause and ‘we’re all in this together’, that whole justification falls apart if you start starving the very people you claim to be fighting for. Also it’s not like all of this aid is particularly useful for anything other than its intended purpose either. If it’s basic foodstuffs and perishables I mean you don’t have easy access to markets to sell, even if you did what are you going to do with the proceeds without free access to the outside world? May as well just use them for their intended purpose. Maybe I’m entirely wrong, but I don’t think it makes much political sense for Hamas to engage in such behaviour on any scale. Gazans have been complaining on social media about the high prices of food, tents, etc. Which is odd given that these items are being primarily delivered as donations intended to be free for the recipients. Going rates for donated tents: United Arab Emirates tent: NIS 4000 Qatari tent: NIS 3200 Turkish tent: 2500 NIS Pakistani tent: 2000 NIS I'm not sure who is acting as the deliverer of these goods. It's either Hamas taking the money to buy armaments and enrich themselves, or UNRWA lining their pockets (these prices were from before their funding freeze). So the goods themselves are reaching people, but the people are paying full price for them (or more). Which means the real beneficiaries are the people running things, as they extract value out of the desperate people that they govern. Edit: Although, it's not clear from here what percent reach the market vs are hoarded by Hamas. I'd wager that a lot of canned foods, fuel, water, and things that are useful while hiding in a tunnel under siege are more likely to disappear while things like diapers just get sold. It would certainly track that things useful to hoard in the tunnel networks would end up there first. Or monetary aid ends up in certain pockets and doesn’t circulate more widely. More perishable foods, or items that aren’t especially useful for any insurgent effort, no sense hoarding. I’m unsure really how the wider economy would even work in such an environment that’s de facto closed off, albeit Hamas have their ways of moving goods in and out of the territory. Cheers for the response, what do those prices you list roughly correspond to in terms of weekly/monthly income? Not a currency I’m familiar with and as I said I’m struggling to envision how an economy even functions under such duress. I don’t think it’s particularly under dispute that Hamas controls distribution, redirects aid, be it for their cause, or self-aggrandisement to some degree, whatever the actual number is. Maybe it is, I’m only speaking for myself after all my pushback here was more against the ‘Hamas leverage starvation to control the populace’ points folks made which I don’t particularly agree with. Terrorists, if they’re embedded and trying to blend in to their communities, well one they are part of that community by default. And sure you’ll still get total bastard psychopath types but Joe average probably doesn’t want to terrorise their families, friends, acquaintances on a daily basis. Shoot collaborators and oppress by various means absolutely but there crosses a line where it becomes counter-productive
Generally speaking, a lot of the Gazan economy is in agriculture (they actually have some of the most arable land in the region. It's not an accident that that area has been one of the population centers for the region since Biblical times.) and making things like textiles and pottery that mostly got sold to Israel and Egypt. So most people didn't have very lucrative jobs, plus unemployment was pretty high. It was a bell curve of wealth, like most places though, all the way up to millionaires, like the guy who financed a whole shopping mall.
I imagine most of that stopped for the war though, so it’s probably mostly down to how people saved their money right now.
As for the exchange rate, 2,000 NIS is about 550 US dollars or 500 Euros. That was the cheapest tent I listed. That's definitely a scalping for people who haven't worked in a while and didn't have great jobs before that.
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So Ren, I'm a 19-year-old Palestinian in Gaza, I really want Palestinians to be free from Israel and I'm willing to use violence to reach this goal. What organization should I join?
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On February 02 2024 19:20 Nebuchad wrote:
So Ren, I'm a 19-year-old Palestinian in Gaza, I really want Palestinians to be free from Israel and I'm willing to use violence to reach this goal. What organization should I join?
You can only be a freedom fighter if you fight for what foreigners - not your own people - consider freedom. If your own people see and treat you as a freedom fighter, but people of foreign nations see you as an oppressor, then you are an oppressor and not a freedom fighter. It doesn't matter what your own people think, they're infants who can't think and choose for themselves. It only matters what foreigners think.
Also, if a foreigner agrees with those people that the fighters are fighting for, then they're supporting oppression and generally Satan.
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By the way isn't that interesting.
"When hundreds of Israeli settlers rampaged through the West Bank town of Huwara last February, the ensuing violence was so brutal that the Israeli military commander over the West Bank referred to it as a “pogrom.” "
Here we have Jewish people committing an atrocity of the same nature that Hamas is being accused of, and yet... there's of course no way Jewish settlers, the IDF or the Israeli administration could be just as evil as Hamas. There's just absolutely no way.
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On February 02 2024 19:56 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2024 19:20 Nebuchad wrote:
So Ren, I'm a 19-year-old Palestinian in Gaza, I really want Palestinians to be free from Israel and I'm willing to use violence to reach this goal. What organization should I join? You can only be a freedom fighter if you fight for what foreigners - not your own people - consider freedom. If your own people see and treat you as a freedom fighter, but people of foreign nations see you as an oppressor, then you are an oppressor and not a freedom fighter. It doesn't matter what your own people think, they're infants who can't think and choose for themselves. It only matters what foreigners think. Also, if a foreigner agrees with those people that the fighters are fighting for, then they're supporting oppression and generally Satan.
So, I wouldn't associate with this exact language. Hamas is still a far right organization, if it achieves all of its goals Palestinians would still be oppressed, just not by Israel.
The parallel is (I've written this before but it was in a post to JimmiC, it makes sense that absolutely no one read it) with the talibans. Are the talibans fighting for freedom? Well no, we can see that once the US is gone, they've implemented a rigid hierarchical system, because of course they have. But that doesn't change the fact that in the context of the US vs Afghanistan war, if you're a young kid living in a valley and you want the US out of that valley, what you do is you join the taliban. There isn't going to be another force that's only fighting for freedom and doesn't have the baggage.
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On February 02 2024 20:04 Magic Powers wrote:
[...]
Here we have Jewish people committing an atrocity of the same nature that Hamas is being accused of, and yet... there's of course no way Jewish settlers, the IDF or the Israeli administration could be just as evil as Hamas. There's just absolutely no way.
[...]
One person died, it's not even remotely comparable. The Israeli Government condemned it. Do you recall what Hamas leaders said about Oct 7th?
And they are not accused, they themselves say they did it and that they will do it again.
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On February 02 2024 20:27 schaf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2024 20:04 Magic Powers wrote:
[...]
Here we have Jewish people committing an atrocity of the same nature that Hamas is being accused of, and yet... there's of course no way Jewish settlers, the IDF or the Israeli administration could be just as evil as Hamas. There's just absolutely no way.
[...] One person died, it's not even remotely comparable. The Israeli Government condemned it. Do you recall what Hamas leaders said about Oct 7th? And they are not accused, they themselves say they did it and that they will do it again.
"One person died"? In what reality do you live? Hundreds of Palestinians have been killed in the West bank over the past few months.
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On February 02 2024 21:02 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2024 20:27 schaf wrote:On February 02 2024 20:04 Magic Powers wrote:
[...]
Here we have Jewish people committing an atrocity of the same nature that Hamas is being accused of, and yet... there's of course no way Jewish settlers, the IDF or the Israeli administration could be just as evil as Hamas. There's just absolutely no way.
[...] One person died, it's not even remotely comparable. The Israeli Government condemned it. Do you recall what Hamas leaders said about Oct 7th? And they are not accused, they themselves say they did it and that they will do it again. "One person died"? In what reality do you live? Hundreds of Palestinians have been killed in the West bank over the past few months.
Well you referenced that one event
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On February 02 2024 20:14 Nebuchad wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2024 19:56 Magic Powers wrote:On February 02 2024 19:20 Nebuchad wrote:
So Ren, I'm a 19-year-old Palestinian in Gaza, I really want Palestinians to be free from Israel and I'm willing to use violence to reach this goal. What organization should I join? You can only be a freedom fighter if you fight for what foreigners - not your own people - consider freedom. If your own people see and treat you as a freedom fighter, but people of foreign nations see you as an oppressor, then you are an oppressor and not a freedom fighter. It doesn't matter what your own people think, they're infants who can't think and choose for themselves. It only matters what foreigners think. Also, if a foreigner agrees with those people that the fighters are fighting for, then they're supporting oppression and generally Satan. So, I wouldn't associate with this exact language. Hamas is still a far right organization, if it achieves all of its goals Palestinians would still be oppressed, just not by Israel. The parallel is (I've written this before but it was in a post to JimmiC, it makes sense that absolutely no one read it) with the talibans. Are the talibans fighting for freedom? Well no, we can see that once the US is gone, they've implemented a rigid hierarchical system, because of course they have. But that doesn't change the fact that in the context of the US vs Afghanistan war, if you're a young kid living in a valley and you want the US out of that valley, what you do is you join the taliban. There isn't going to be another force that's only fighting for freedom and doesn't have the baggage.
I think people need to stop believing that only good people can be resistance fighters. There's nothing about the term that suggests that. Liberation is the act of ridding people of an occupying force. Israel is an occupying force. Getting rid of that occupying force would be indisputably better for Palestinians than not getting rid of them. This would also be true if, in the aftermath, Hamas stays in power. Any claims to the contrary are unfounded personal bias.
The war against Hamas serves exclusively Israel. It doesn't serve Palestinians. Anyone who claims otherwise is ideologically compromised.
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On February 02 2024 21:04 schaf wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2024 21:02 Magic Powers wrote:On February 02 2024 20:27 schaf wrote:On February 02 2024 20:04 Magic Powers wrote:
[...]
Here we have Jewish people committing an atrocity of the same nature that Hamas is being accused of, and yet... there's of course no way Jewish settlers, the IDF or the Israeli administration could be just as evil as Hamas. There's just absolutely no way.
[...] One person died, it's not even remotely comparable. The Israeli Government condemned it. Do you recall what Hamas leaders said about Oct 7th? And they are not accused, they themselves say they did it and that they will do it again. "One person died"? In what reality do you live? Hundreds of Palestinians have been killed in the West bank over the past few months. Well you referenced that one event
You're misrepresenting reality if you leave it at "one person died". The reality is that Palestinians in the West bank are being killed at an unprecedented rate. This is rarely being mentioned in this thread, and it's never been acknowledged by the individuals around here who have an anti-Palestinian bias. Whenever I've mentioned it, practically no one has acknowledged it. There's no discussion about how evil Jewish settlers are and how this would impact the conflict at large, and whether or not this proves that Palestinian support for Hamas is within reason, and not born out of evil.
Furthermore, it's not like those Jewish settlers wouldn't have killed more Palestinians if they could've. They've been demonstrating in recent months how willing they are to commit crimes of the same nature as that of Hamas. Hundreds of deaths prove their intent.
And have you seen GH's contributions to that part of the conflict? The TikTok trends?
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On February 02 2024 23:31 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2024 19:20 Nebuchad wrote:
So Ren, I'm a 19-year-old Palestinian in Gaza, I really want Palestinians to be free from Israel and I'm willing to use violence to reach this goal. What organization should I join? Fatah would likely be the best choice. Makes a lot more sense to join the group that Netanyahu is scared of rather than the one he supported.
I don't think Fatah has a military wing at this point in time, correct me if I'm wrong. I believe the last was the al-Aqsa Brigade, who split from Fatah in 2007 and is currently fighting alongside with Hamas.
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Northern Ireland22955 Posts
On February 02 2024 13:22 RenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 02 2024 09:49 WombaT wrote:On February 02 2024 09:42 JimmiC wrote:On February 02 2024 09:33 WombaT wrote:On February 02 2024 09:15 JimmiC wrote:On February 02 2024 08:39 WombaT wrote:On February 02 2024 06:56 JimmiC wrote:On February 02 2024 06:39 Fleetfeet wrote:On February 02 2024 04:01 JimmiC wrote:On February 02 2024 03:56 WombaT wrote:
[quote]
Where is the backtrack Jimmy? This is baffling me Where isn't it? How about trying to move forward and answer. Put your flag down. Can this stop? You can have sane conversations with people without being a piece of shit. Most people would prefer you do that. Every second post you're whining about someone strawmanning you or piling on, when people are just annoyed because the way you're choosing to communicate is fucking garbage. One of those people, best I can tell, is someone who hasn't even interacted with you before and communicated their position calmly. You recently got banned for picking mindless fights with everyone, and I understand the taint in here of you basically learning a lesson from BlackJack and crying victim every other post, I just don't understand how any of those interactions inspired you to become another BlackJack. The irony of you some posts ago asking anyone else to be better is deeply amusing. Be better. People as me questions, I answer them. People me ask to to source, I source them. But the reverse is never true. Look if you want to contribute to the discussion by all means go for it. But the constant pile on of me is getting boring. If Wombat does want to discuss with me than I'm going to hold him to the standard I get held to (and is the forum rules). I was nice to him for literally years, to point of personal well wishes in PM's then every couple days I have to deal with his tantrums and insults in here so he can look cool or whatever. Fuck that. He can be a grown up or fuck off and that goes for cry baby MP as well. The me telling people to post better is supposed to be irony BTW, bunch of people complaining about my posts while posting WAY worse. The entitlement of "you have to do it this way but I'll shit all over the place" is awfully frustrating. But the lack of self awareness is the real kicker. The talking about the straw manning is because that is exactly what happens on a daily basis. No matter how many times I explain it, or how many times I ask people to find where I said what they say I've said. Then some other guy who has not participated or read the conversation jumps in to also argue on behalf of the strawman, and that is when I mention the piling on. If people want it not to be a bunch of shit posts, stop making shit posts. And this clearly goes for you as well. Congrats maybe you will win a prize for like the 100th no content, off topic shit post about me! (Not a real number, exaggerated for effect). Literally all I’ve said is stop posting in an irritating manner, when you don’t you are a valuable contributor. I’ve seen you do better, you’re eminently capable of it, if I didn’t think you were I wouldn’t bother raising it. If people were unfairly describing you as a Zionist stooge or something you wouldn’t like it would you? But you’ll continually tar people as Hamas sympathisers even if their previous posts have roundly condemned them. I answered a specific question, only for you to respond with another, different question that I’m somehow be supposed to answer before it was proffered. That I’ve apparently backtracked on despite never having said anything about it to begin with. It’s not an ideological issue either, I’ve had nothing but civil interactions with Cerebrate, who I think it’s fair to say is quite pro-Israel (while not being dismissive of the Palestinian side of the equation), and I value our exchanges. I’m posting this in thread rather than via PM so if folks consider my interpretation as unfair they’re free to push back. Otherwise I’m not fussed on engaging unless you stop doing the things that multiple posters have constructively outlined, you do you man. If nothing else you’re proof that unconscious bias training really isn’t effective at actually eliminating it from the subject. Nope you answered a question I didn’t ask. And when you call Hamas freedom fighters, or act like they are a rational political group you are sympathizing. If they were freedom fighters they would have picked a different target and used different tactics. Their leadership didn’t have an accident. They meticulously planned and executed a strategy to bring them closer to their goals. And it was successful. The rest of your post is garbage. There was at least two freak outs in last couple of months and I’ve run out of patience. Good luck in your life but I’m past caring. It does not matter to me at all what you think of me or my posting. I’ve never that I can recall ever called Hamas freedom fighters, show me the post. Please, for the class. National self-determination and liberal values aren’t always bedfellows. Hamas can both want freedom from being under the boot of Israel and themselves be quite restrictive in what rights they would give, or do give to their subjects. Did every former colony of the British Empire enjoy better civic rights for their population after independence? Some did, some didn’t, but it’s not really a justification for the British Empire continuing as it did to the present day. When or where did I say that or anything remotely close? I’m your analogy did the people under British rule call the freedom fighters oppressive and corrupt in massive percentages? When they were funded and controlled by either the US or Russia were they a proxy army or freedom fighters? If the latter than all the coups people claim about the US destabilizing areas, in South America for example, was actually the US supporting freedom fighters? I never claimed you did say such a thing, it was an illustrative example that national self-determination and a more generally accepted universal standard of human rights don’t always coexist Hamas can simultaneously be fighting for freedom from Israel, while their own regime denies basic freedoms to their populace, both can be true. Have you dug out the post where I called Hamas noble freedom fighters yet btw? You certainly implied in this very post that Hamas are freedom fighters. You said they can "be fighting for freedom". That's pretty much the definition of a freedom fighter. I find that to be problematic for one of two reasons. Either, 1) You've made "freedom fighter" such a loose term that it loses all its meaning. If someone fights to keep his slaves, is he a freedom fighter? He's fighting for his own freedom to hold slaves, thus a "freedom fighter". Freedom fighter is a positive term that I feel requires more than fighting for some vague version of "freedom". The "freedom" itself needs to be a highly qualified greater good. If someone is fighting for their freedom to impose their own rule on others, I can't call them freedom fighters. That's where Hamas fails. They may be fighting Israel, but their actions have always been worse. Their treatment of humanity has always been worse. Their belief in rights has always been worse. "Freedom" for them is awful for everyone else. So I can't even say that they're "fighting for freedom from Israel". I don't want to even imply that they're freedom fighters. What they want is not freedom. 2) You're purely proposing a hypothetical. You do say, "can simultaneously be". That says that you're not saying they are, just that they could theoretically be. The problem with this is that by purely proposing a hypothetical, you are linking the two things together. Tucker Carlson is known for this tactic. He's "just asking questions". He uses highly leading questions to imply certain things without ever directly saying those things. It's very weaselly. Of course, he's far from the first or only one to do it. Another example, in the 2000 Republican primaries, Bush's cronies would do "Polls" in southern states and ask questions like "How would you feel if you found out that John McCain had an illegitimate black child?" Those "pollsters" were just asking questions. However, the question itself was extremely leading and got a bunch of southern Republican voters to link McCain with an affair and black people, which likely hurt McCain's chances in a religious and racist south. Even if you're purely asking questions or making statements from a theoretical standpoint, you're subtly making links in people's minds.
@Jimmy + Fleet thanks for responses just using this one to quote off
It is essentially both a loaded term with positive connotations, but definitionally so vague as to basically always apply to such scenarios.
Which, is why I studiously avoid using it, and only did in response to other posts. And really in irritation at accusations of Hamas sympathies.
As the old adage goes ‘one man’s freedom fighter is another’s terrorist’ and all that.
It is generally agreed that national self-determination is a legitimate thing to pursue, peoples should be able to pursue their own destiny. But that doesn’t always necessarily lead to greater freedom, or better conditions for the populace, although obviously it often can.
This would strike me as one such case:
1) Do Hamas want a state for their people? - Yes
2) Is such a state under their control likely to be oppressive? - Yes
If I’m frequently acknowledging 2, occasionally pointing out 1 doesn’t immediately invalidate the former utterances. Having to add endless caveats to posts to avoid accusations of Hamas sympathy also gets grating.
My actual position on this is probably closest to Mohdoo, or at least how I interpret his posts, if I interpret the gist he may correct me.
Hamas can’t win militarily, even with human shields and embedding themselves in the populace. Which, if not a legitimate tactic is basically necessity if they don’t want to be obliterated in a week. The Palestinians if they roundly disarm probably aren’t getting what they want because why would Israel give them it? They’ve shown less and less inclination over time and there’s a huge power imbalance that’s growing.
Really the only hope for some kind of resolution that is palatable to both sides will come from external international pressure and those wheels are very, very slow to turn indeed on current/historical evidence.
Hamas are dooming their people to continued suffering, whatever the cause it’s just not a winnable one. The IRA had sympathy for their cause in powerful stations (especially the US), the IRA didn’t have the British air striking civilian centres to root them out. The British don’t really, much as they’ll say otherwise, even care about Northern Ireland all that much, and even in the Troubles era there was never a huge visceral hatred between the peoples, who were culturally very similar. That kind of scenario, actually winnable.
Ultimately it’s a perpetual conflict where all parties would benefit from a cessation. But they won’t because pride is one of our great flaws as a species.
Hamas being in charge, and its methods take the only victory condition for even a two-state solution (nevermind what they actually desire) completely off the table
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Northern Ireland22955 Posts
On February 02 2024 16:53 Cerebrate1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2024 12:12 WombaT wrote:On January 31 2024 09:49 Cerebrate1 wrote:On January 31 2024 00:14 WombaT wrote:On January 30 2024 22:17 Branch.AUT wrote:On January 30 2024 10:02 WombaT wrote:On January 30 2024 05:19 Magic Powers wrote:On January 30 2024 04:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 29 2024 21:27 Magic Powers wrote:
30 000 people are employed at the UNRWA, mostly Palestinians. Before an investigation has even taken place they've fired 12 of them over the accusations of participating in the October 7 attack. An investigation is currently underway.
As a consequence, funding to the entire organization has been halted.
I can't say I'm surprised. While Israel rejects every investigation into IDF conduct and yet continues to receive international aid, the UNRWA immediately conducts an investigation and fires its employees yet has international aid withdrawn. This is despite the UNRWA being a humanitarian organization that saves peoples lives while the IDF causes tens of thousands of deaths.
Amazing priorities of the countries supporting Israel. Important to note it's essentially the only functional humanitarian organization left in Gaza, so it's basically the US reinvigorating Israel's pursuit to collectively punish Palestinians. And the consequence of that collective punishment will be more adversity, more hatred and more conflict. It's counterproductive to withhold funding since those considered to be guilty have already been removed and the investigation is ongoing. That should've been the only thing required to demonstrate goodwill, but apparently it wasn't enough. The UNRWA is being held to an unrealistically high standard. They're predominantly Palestinians, so a tiny overlap with extremists is practically unavoidable. If funding to the entire org gets withdrawn every single time individual members take part in terrorist activity, that would lead to a collapse of vast amounts of humanitarian efforts towards Palestinians. You can bomb civilians on the off chance you nail an extremist, but you can’t give aid to civilians on the off chance some of it goes to an extremist, or there are extremists in the aid org. You know the guy with the guns can just take ALL of the aid, and give nothing to the general population right? And then give it to his other armed friends. While everyone else has to starve? And then,as bonus they can just point the finger at the bad guys, and say its their fault that everyones starving right now. Works wonders for recruitment too. Take this weapon, kill some baddies, we'll give your family some food. Keep killing, we keep giving food. Humanitarian aid for the general population is awesome and should 100% be encouraged. Aid through the hands of an oppressor, becomes a conflict driving tool. I don't know who actually has their hands on the aid first in palestine. Neither does anyone else here. I trust that the the people who brought you PRISM know tho. I hope they act accotdingly when deciding if aid is to be handed out. You don’t know but you’re postulating a rather specific hypothetical? I doubt Hamas would enjoy the support they do if they were hoarding and dictating where basic humanitarian supplies go. Even with deflecting ultimate blame to Israel, or attempting to there’s still a limit on how far you can push it. Blackmailing people for basic sustenance in order to recruit them seems to cross that line IMO. Even de facto using people as human shields you can justify with the cause and ‘we’re all in this together’, that whole justification falls apart if you start starving the very people you claim to be fighting for. Also it’s not like all of this aid is particularly useful for anything other than its intended purpose either. If it’s basic foodstuffs and perishables I mean you don’t have easy access to markets to sell, even if you did what are you going to do with the proceeds without free access to the outside world? May as well just use them for their intended purpose. Maybe I’m entirely wrong, but I don’t think it makes much political sense for Hamas to engage in such behaviour on any scale. Gazans have been complaining on social media about the high prices of food, tents, etc. Which is odd given that these items are being primarily delivered as donations intended to be free for the recipients. Going rates for donated tents: United Arab Emirates tent: NIS 4000 Qatari tent: NIS 3200 Turkish tent: 2500 NIS Pakistani tent: 2000 NIS I'm not sure who is acting as the deliverer of these goods. It's either Hamas taking the money to buy armaments and enrich themselves, or UNRWA lining their pockets (these prices were from before their funding freeze). So the goods themselves are reaching people, but the people are paying full price for them (or more). Which means the real beneficiaries are the people running things, as they extract value out of the desperate people that they govern. Edit: Although, it's not clear from here what percent reach the market vs are hoarded by Hamas. I'd wager that a lot of canned foods, fuel, water, and things that are useful while hiding in a tunnel under siege are more likely to disappear while things like diapers just get sold. It would certainly track that things useful to hoard in the tunnel networks would end up there first. Or monetary aid ends up in certain pockets and doesn’t circulate more widely. More perishable foods, or items that aren’t especially useful for any insurgent effort, no sense hoarding. I’m unsure really how the wider economy would even work in such an environment that’s de facto closed off, albeit Hamas have their ways of moving goods in and out of the territory. Cheers for the response, what do those prices you list roughly correspond to in terms of weekly/monthly income? Not a currency I’m familiar with and as I said I’m struggling to envision how an economy even functions under such duress. I don’t think it’s particularly under dispute that Hamas controls distribution, redirects aid, be it for their cause, or self-aggrandisement to some degree, whatever the actual number is. Maybe it is, I’m only speaking for myself after all my pushback here was more against the ‘Hamas leverage starvation to control the populace’ points folks made which I don’t particularly agree with. Terrorists, if they’re embedded and trying to blend in to their communities, well one they are part of that community by default. And sure you’ll still get total bastard psychopath types but Joe average probably doesn’t want to terrorise their families, friends, acquaintances on a daily basis. Shoot collaborators and oppress by various means absolutely but there crosses a line where it becomes counter-productive Generally speaking, a lot of the Gazan economy is in agriculture (they actually have some of the most arable land in the region. It's not an accident that that area has been one of the population centers for the region since Biblical times.) and making things like textiles and pottery that mostly got sold to Israel and Egypt. So most people didn't have very lucrative jobs, plus unemployment was pretty high. It was a bell curve of wealth, like most places though, all the way up to millionaires, like the guy who financed a whole shopping mall. I imagine most of that stopped for the war though, so it’s probably mostly down to how people saved their money right now. As for the exchange rate, 2,000 NIS is about 550 US dollars or 500 Euros. That was the cheapest tent I listed. That's definitely a scalping for people who haven't worked in a while and didn't have great jobs before that.
Merci beaucoup for the follow-up, that does appear rather scalpy indeed. Although if the economy is completely FUBARed temporarily perhaps there is some degree of necessity to such practices?
Not at the initial point of gouging on donations to be clear, but further down the chain I imagine there’s a lot of pretty desperate people engaging in extortionate practices just to survive.
At least from what I’ve read about various other states of varying cultures and systems when they properly collapse, which I assume Gaza is vaguely equivalent to.
Have to do some more digging and reading on the topic really, but I imagine living there on the very nuts and bolts day-to-day is very difficult indeed
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Northern Ireland22955 Posts
On February 03 2024 02:16 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 03 2024 01:02 WombaT wrote:On February 02 2024 13:22 RenSC2 wrote:On February 02 2024 09:49 WombaT wrote:On February 02 2024 09:42 JimmiC wrote:On February 02 2024 09:33 WombaT wrote:On February 02 2024 09:15 JimmiC wrote:On February 02 2024 08:39 WombaT wrote:On February 02 2024 06:56 JimmiC wrote:On February 02 2024 06:39 Fleetfeet wrote:
[quote]
Can this stop? You can have sane conversations with people without being a piece of shit. Most people would prefer you do that.
Every second post you're whining about someone strawmanning you or piling on, when people are just annoyed because the way you're choosing to communicate is fucking garbage. One of those people, best I can tell, is someone who hasn't even interacted with you before and communicated their position calmly. You recently got banned for picking mindless fights with everyone, and I understand the taint in here of you basically learning a lesson from BlackJack and crying victim every other post, I just don't understand how any of those interactions inspired you to become another BlackJack.
The irony of you some posts ago asking anyone else to be better is deeply amusing. Be better. People as me questions, I answer them. People me ask to to source, I source them. But the reverse is never true. Look if you want to contribute to the discussion by all means go for it. But the constant pile on of me is getting boring. If Wombat does want to discuss with me than I'm going to hold him to the standard I get held to (and is the forum rules). I was nice to him for literally years, to point of personal well wishes in PM's then every couple days I have to deal with his tantrums and insults in here so he can look cool or whatever. Fuck that. He can be a grown up or fuck off and that goes for cry baby MP as well. The me telling people to post better is supposed to be irony BTW, bunch of people complaining about my posts while posting WAY worse. The entitlement of "you have to do it this way but I'll shit all over the place" is awfully frustrating. But the lack of self awareness is the real kicker. The talking about the straw manning is because that is exactly what happens on a daily basis. No matter how many times I explain it, or how many times I ask people to find where I said what they say I've said. Then some other guy who has not participated or read the conversation jumps in to also argue on behalf of the strawman, and that is when I mention the piling on. If people want it not to be a bunch of shit posts, stop making shit posts. And this clearly goes for you as well. Congrats maybe you will win a prize for like the 100th no content, off topic shit post about me! (Not a real number, exaggerated for effect). Literally all I’ve said is stop posting in an irritating manner, when you don’t you are a valuable contributor. I’ve seen you do better, you’re eminently capable of it, if I didn’t think you were I wouldn’t bother raising it. If people were unfairly describing you as a Zionist stooge or something you wouldn’t like it would you? But you’ll continually tar people as Hamas sympathisers even if their previous posts have roundly condemned them. I answered a specific question, only for you to respond with another, different question that I’m somehow be supposed to answer before it was proffered. That I’ve apparently backtracked on despite never having said anything about it to begin with. It’s not an ideological issue either, I’ve had nothing but civil interactions with Cerebrate, who I think it’s fair to say is quite pro-Israel (while not being dismissive of the Palestinian side of the equation), and I value our exchanges. I’m posting this in thread rather than via PM so if folks consider my interpretation as unfair they’re free to push back. Otherwise I’m not fussed on engaging unless you stop doing the things that multiple posters have constructively outlined, you do you man. If nothing else you’re proof that unconscious bias training really isn’t effective at actually eliminating it from the subject. Nope you answered a question I didn’t ask. And when you call Hamas freedom fighters, or act like they are a rational political group you are sympathizing. If they were freedom fighters they would have picked a different target and used different tactics. Their leadership didn’t have an accident. They meticulously planned and executed a strategy to bring them closer to their goals. And it was successful. The rest of your post is garbage. There was at least two freak outs in last couple of months and I’ve run out of patience. Good luck in your life but I’m past caring. It does not matter to me at all what you think of me or my posting. I’ve never that I can recall ever called Hamas freedom fighters, show me the post. Please, for the class. National self-determination and liberal values aren’t always bedfellows. Hamas can both want freedom from being under the boot of Israel and themselves be quite restrictive in what rights they would give, or do give to their subjects. Did every former colony of the British Empire enjoy better civic rights for their population after independence? Some did, some didn’t, but it’s not really a justification for the British Empire continuing as it did to the present day. When or where did I say that or anything remotely close? I’m your analogy did the people under British rule call the freedom fighters oppressive and corrupt in massive percentages? When they were funded and controlled by either the US or Russia were they a proxy army or freedom fighters? If the latter than all the coups people claim about the US destabilizing areas, in South America for example, was actually the US supporting freedom fighters? I never claimed you did say such a thing, it was an illustrative example that national self-determination and a more generally accepted universal standard of human rights don’t always coexist Hamas can simultaneously be fighting for freedom from Israel, while their own regime denies basic freedoms to their populace, both can be true. Have you dug out the post where I called Hamas noble freedom fighters yet btw? You certainly implied in this very post that Hamas are freedom fighters. You said they can "be fighting for freedom". That's pretty much the definition of a freedom fighter. I find that to be problematic for one of two reasons. Either, 1) You've made "freedom fighter" such a loose term that it loses all its meaning. If someone fights to keep his slaves, is he a freedom fighter? He's fighting for his own freedom to hold slaves, thus a "freedom fighter". Freedom fighter is a positive term that I feel requires more than fighting for some vague version of "freedom". The "freedom" itself needs to be a highly qualified greater good. If someone is fighting for their freedom to impose their own rule on others, I can't call them freedom fighters. That's where Hamas fails. They may be fighting Israel, but their actions have always been worse. Their treatment of humanity has always been worse. Their belief in rights has always been worse. "Freedom" for them is awful for everyone else. So I can't even say that they're "fighting for freedom from Israel". I don't want to even imply that they're freedom fighters. What they want is not freedom. 2) You're purely proposing a hypothetical. You do say, "can simultaneously be". That says that you're not saying they are, just that they could theoretically be. The problem with this is that by purely proposing a hypothetical, you are linking the two things together. Tucker Carlson is known for this tactic. He's "just asking questions". He uses highly leading questions to imply certain things without ever directly saying those things. It's very weaselly. Of course, he's far from the first or only one to do it. Another example, in the 2000 Republican primaries, Bush's cronies would do "Polls" in southern states and ask questions like "How would you feel if you found out that John McCain had an illegitimate black child?" Those "pollsters" were just asking questions. However, the question itself was extremely leading and got a bunch of southern Republican voters to link McCain with an affair and black people, which likely hurt McCain's chances in a religious and racist south. Even if you're purely asking questions or making statements from a theoretical standpoint, you're subtly making links in people's minds. @Jimmy + Fleet thanks for responses just using this one to quote off It is essentially both a loaded term with positive connotations, but definitionally so vague as to basically always apply to such scenarios. Which, is why I studiously avoid using it, and only did in response to other posts. And really in irritation at accusations of Hamas sympathies. As the old adage goes ‘one man’s freedom fighter is another’s terrorist’ and all that. It is generally agreed that national self-determination is a legitimate thing to pursue, peoples should be able to pursue their own destiny. But that doesn’t always necessarily lead to greater freedom, or better conditions for the populace, although obviously it often can. This would strike me as one such case: 1) Do Hamas want a state for their people? - Yes 2) Is such a state under their control likely to be oppressive? - Yes If I’m frequently acknowledging 2, occasionally pointing out 1 doesn’t immediately invalidate the former utterances. Having to add endless caveats to posts to avoid accusations of Hamas sympathy also gets grating. My actual position on this is probably closest to Mohdoo, or at least how I interpret his posts, if I interpret the gist he may correct me. Hamas can’t win militarily, even with human shields and embedding themselves in the populace. Which, if not a legitimate tactic is basically necessity if they don’t want to be obliterated in a week. The Palestinians if they roundly disarm probably aren’t getting what they want because why would Israel give them it? They’ve shown less and less inclination over time and there’s a huge power imbalance that’s growing. Really the only hope for some kind of resolution that is palatable to both sides will come from external international pressure and those wheels are very, very slow to turn indeed on current/historical evidence. Hamas are dooming their people to continued suffering, whatever the cause it’s just not a winnable one. The IRA had sympathy for their cause in powerful stations (especially the US), the IRA didn’t have the British air striking civilian centres to root them out. The British don’t really, much as they’ll say otherwise, even care about Northern Ireland all that much, and even in the Troubles era there was never a huge visceral hatred between the peoples, who were culturally very similar. That kind of scenario, actually winnable. Ultimately it’s a perpetual conflict where all parties would benefit from a cessation. But they won’t because pride is one of our great flaws as a species. Hamas being in charge, and its methods take the only victory condition for even a two-state solution (nevermind what they actually desire) completely off the table Correct if I'm wrong, but the IRA was not the government in Ireland it was the British? And also the IRA was not ran by a foreign government? My other bone to pick is with your choice of likely in the 2nd point. They are the government and they are oppressive (and that is not me saying it, it is what the Gazans say). Most of your post I agree with, it is just that analogies don't really track. Like sure every resistance group gets branded terrorists. But there is a difference between planting a bomb and it killing a child vs walking into a home tying everyone up, raping the women and stabbing them all to death including the babies. There is a line you cross where the goal is no longer anything other than hate and terror. If their target on OCT 7th was a prison holding their people, any military outpost, a police station, any sort of infrastructure, even like a office building that housed the IDF in some way. I could see where many people are coming from, we would likely be more aligned. But considering what they did on top of how they treat their own women not mention their LGTB community, I feel to strongly about human rights to support them at all. If they "win" the Palestines will be worse off.
It is the scenario I’m most familiar with so it’s my go-to, but there are as many differences as there are similarities. Indeed, I’m quite critical locally of my Irish fellows for often uncritically drawing a lineage between Irish Republicanism and Palestine, to the degree they make excuses for Hamas by (not necessarily consciously) drawing too many parallels.
I think my very initial posts on Oct 7th alluded to a level of brutality and sadism that exceed mere pushes for self-determination and to a visceral, genocidal hatred of not just Israelis, but Jews in general. Cannot recall my exact wording but I’ll just reiterate again.
It still doesn’t mean they’re not motivated by freedom from Israeli control, or are resisting that. What they would do with such a state of affairs isn’t going to be good, be it for their people, or Israelis.
It’s a gap in my knowledge I’ll try to fill but I’d wager even if we magically removed Hamas from power and any influence, that broader Palestinian social and cultural views aren’t going to massively align with mine if we’re talking how women are perceived, never mind LGBT people.
It doesn’t strike me as fertile ground for egalitarianism to sprout, at least initially. I don’t think Hamas is fully reflective of the populace, I do think they’re more extreme and wield power to withhold certain things, but neither do I think they’re the sole entity that’s subsuming some wellspring of Western values coming to the surface.
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EPT![[image loading]](https://images-ext-2.discordapp.net/external/GLPEUWkEHqb_gIRwkS0zQWkcytztp0ZlMu5PV6Q5YJU/https/i.gyazo.com/0d97f53c6760d44de7566ea038f800d7.png?format=webp&quality=lossless&width=961&height=748)
