NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.
On January 30 2024 23:28 Nebuchad wrote: Btw could someone send me something about what happens in 30 days? Does the ICJ publish some kind of document to say that Israel hasn't followed the orders of the provisional measures?
From what I’ve read they submit a report and if the court doesn’t believe/agree they have no power or authority and they kick it to the UN, who will kick it to the security council for sanctions or whatever. Assuming someone on that council (the US most likely in this case) doesn’t veto it.
Yeah I read the same thing, was just wondering what the "they kick it" is and hoping it's a form of public record. But I don't really see why it wouldn't be so I guess it must be.
On January 29 2024 21:27 Magic Powers wrote: 30 000 people are employed at the UNRWA, mostly Palestinians. Before an investigation has even taken place they've fired 12 of them over the accusations of participating in the October 7 attack. An investigation is currently underway. As a consequence, funding to the entire organization has been halted.
I can't say I'm surprised. While Israel rejects every investigation into IDF conduct and yet continues to receive international aid, the UNRWA immediately conducts an investigation and fires its employees yet has international aid withdrawn. This is despite the UNRWA being a humanitarian organization that saves peoples lives while the IDF causes tens of thousands of deaths. Amazing priorities of the countries supporting Israel.
Important to note it's essentially the only functional humanitarian organization left in Gaza, so it's basically the US reinvigorating Israel's pursuit to collectively punish Palestinians.
And the consequence of that collective punishment will be more adversity, more hatred and more conflict. It's counterproductive to withhold funding since those considered to be guilty have already been removed and the investigation is ongoing. That should've been the only thing required to demonstrate goodwill, but apparently it wasn't enough.
The UNRWA is being held to an unrealistically high standard. They're predominantly Palestinians, so a tiny overlap with extremists is practically unavoidable. If funding to the entire org gets withdrawn every single time individual members take part in terrorist activity, that would lead to a collapse of vast amounts of humanitarian efforts towards Palestinians.
You can bomb civilians on the off chance you nail an extremist, but you can’t give aid to civilians on the off chance some of it goes to an extremist, or there are extremists in the aid org.
You know the guy with the guns can just take ALL of the aid, and give nothing to the general population right? And then give it to his other armed friends. While everyone else has to starve? And then,as bonus they can just point the finger at the bad guys, and say its their fault that everyones starving right now. Works wonders for recruitment too. Take this weapon, kill some baddies, we'll give your family some food. Keep killing, we keep giving food.
Humanitarian aid for the general population is awesome and should 100% be encouraged. Aid through the hands of an oppressor, becomes a conflict driving tool. I don't know who actually has their hands on the aid first in palestine. Neither does anyone else here. I trust that the the people who brought you PRISM know tho. I hope they act accotdingly when deciding if aid is to be handed out.
You don’t know but you’re postulating a rather specific hypothetical?
I doubt Hamas would enjoy the support they do if they were hoarding and dictating where basic humanitarian supplies go. Even with deflecting ultimate blame to Israel, or attempting to there’s still a limit on how far you can push it. Blackmailing people for basic sustenance in order to recruit them seems to cross that line IMO.
Even de facto using people as human shields you can justify with the cause and ‘we’re all in this together’, that whole justification falls apart if you start starving the very people you claim to be fighting for.
Also it’s not like all of this aid is particularly useful for anything other than its intended purpose either. If it’s basic foodstuffs and perishables I mean you don’t have easy access to markets to sell, even if you did what are you going to do with the proceeds without free access to the outside world? May as well just use them for their intended purpose.
Maybe I’m entirely wrong, but I don’t think it makes much political sense for Hamas to engage in such behaviour on any scale.
Well this won't help the IDF much. As I am pretty sure medics are not supposed to be carrying weapons, especially hidden ones. When they are in fact special forces designed to get to a specific place or an area to kill a person. But no civilians were hurt, or killed just those three members. So obvious they knew who they were after.
Would this not be labeled a war crime? Unless said fighters can been identified as legit targets Plus Hamas and other groups have stated they do not use Hospitals as staging areas are pretty much exposed here. So no winners in this scenario.
CCTV footage showed members of an undercover unit disguised as medics and other civilians making their way through a corridor with rifles raised.
The Israeli military said the men were hiding in the Jenin hospital, and that one was about to carry out an attack. The Palestinian Authority's ministry of health accused Israel of carrying out a "new massacre inside hospitals".
Hamas, an armed Palestinian Islamist group which is fighting a war with Israel in Gaza triggered by its unprecedented attacks on Israel on 7 October, said the Israeli forces had "executed three fighters", including one of its members.
Another armed group, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, said two of those killed were its members and were brothers. It added that one of them had been receiving treatment at the hospital.
The security camera video from Ibn Sina hospital shows several members of the Israeli undercover unit - men and women - hurrying through a corridor, training their weapons left and right. One can be seen taking a piece of clothing of an unidentified person who is kneeling down with his hands behind his head, then covering his head with it.
Tensions have soared in the West Bank since the 7 October attacks, with near daily Israeli arrest raids and clashes with Palestinians. Jenin, a militant stronghold, has been a focus of such raids for months.
Since 7 October, Israeli forces have killed at least 357 Palestinians - militants, civilians and attackers - in the West Bank, while Israeli settlers have killed at least eight, according to the United Nations.
Palestinians from the West Bank have killed at least 10 Israelis in attacks in the West Bank and Israel in the same period.
In a statement, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said the Hamas suspect who was killed had "planned a raid attack inspired by the October 7th massacre". On that date, waves of Hamas gunmen invaded Israel from Gaza, killed about 1,300 people - mainly civilians - and took about 250 others back to Gaza as hostages.
The attack triggered Israel's military campaign in Gaza, with the declared aim of destroying Hamas. The Hamas-run health ministry in Gaza says more than 26,600 Palestinians - mostly women and children - have been killed in the Israeli offensive.
The official Palestinian news agency in the West Bank, Wafa, said the three Palestinians in the hospital had been "assassinated".
According to its sources in the hospital, about 10 members of Israeli special forces dressed in civilian clothes went to the third floor, where they killed the men using weapons fitted with silencers.
One of the PIJ members who was killed had been receiving treatment for an injury in the hospital since 25 October, it added.
On January 31 2024 00:56 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Well this won't help the IDF much. As I am pretty sure medics are not supposed to be carrying weapons, especially hidden ones. When they are in fact special forces designed to get to a specific place or an area to kill a person. But no civilians were hurt, or killed just those three members. So obvious they knew who they were after.
Would this not be labeled a war crime? Unless said fighters can been identified as legit targets Plus Hamas and other groups have stated they do not use Hospitals as staging areas are pretty much exposed here. So no winners in this scenario.
CCTV footage showed members of an undercover unit disguised as medics and other civilians making their way through a corridor with rifles raised.
The Israeli military said the men were hiding in the Jenin hospital, and that one was about to carry out an attack. The Palestinian Authority's ministry of health accused Israel of carrying out a "new massacre inside hospitals".
Hamas, an armed Palestinian Islamist group which is fighting a war with Israel in Gaza triggered by its unprecedented attacks on Israel on 7 October, said the Israeli forces had "executed three fighters", including one of its members.
Another armed group, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, said two of those killed were its members and were brothers. It added that one of them had been receiving treatment at the hospital.
The security camera video from Ibn Sina hospital shows several members of the Israeli undercover unit - men and women - hurrying through a corridor, training their weapons left and right. One can be seen taking a piece of clothing of an unidentified person who is kneeling down with his hands behind his head, then covering his head with it.
Tensions have soared in the West Bank since the 7 October attacks, with near daily Israeli arrest raids and clashes with Palestinians. Jenin, a militant stronghold, has been a focus of such raids for months.
Since 7 October, Israeli forces have killed at least 357 Palestinians - militants, civilians and attackers - in the West Bank, while Israeli settlers have killed at least eight, according to the United Nations.
Palestinians from the West Bank have killed at least 10 Israelis in attacks in the West Bank and Israel in the same period.
In a statement, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said the Hamas suspect who was killed had "planned a raid attack inspired by the October 7th massacre". On that date, waves of Hamas gunmen invaded Israel from Gaza, killed about 1,300 people - mainly civilians - and took about 250 others back to Gaza as hostages.
The attack triggered Israel's military campaign in Gaza, with the declared aim of destroying Hamas. The Hamas-run health ministry in Gaza says more than 26,600 Palestinians - mostly women and children - have been killed in the Israeli offensive.
The official Palestinian news agency in the West Bank, Wafa, said the three Palestinians in the hospital had been "assassinated".
According to its sources in the hospital, about 10 members of Israeli special forces dressed in civilian clothes went to the third floor, where they killed the men using weapons fitted with silencers.
One of the PIJ members who was killed had been receiving treatment for an injury in the hospital since 25 October, it added.
No it wouldn't be a war crime, if it was the IDF would not release the video. This is more or less what people have been asking for, more precision attacks and less bombs. This is basically the only way to get the Hamas members who are using the hospitals as bases of operation. 3 terrorists gone and no civilian casualties. This is something that everyone should be happy with no?
Famously no warring party has ever released footage of war crimes... If Hamas releases a video of something, is it automatically a war crime and if Israel releases one it automatically isn't? Is that how this works? Things that you approve of, whether logically or instinctively, can still be war crimes and the same goes in reverse.
The question in this case appears to be whether the people killed were injured fighters in the hospital for treatment, in which case it is a war crime, or whether they weren't injured, in which case it wasn't. Seems like both sides are claiming the opposite on that one and the video doesn't show anything on that front so it's hard to say.
On January 31 2024 00:56 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Well this won't help the IDF much. As I am pretty sure medics are not supposed to be carrying weapons, especially hidden ones. When they are in fact special forces designed to get to a specific place or an area to kill a person. But no civilians were hurt, or killed just those three members. So obvious they knew who they were after.
Would this not be labeled a war crime? Unless said fighters can been identified as legit targets Plus Hamas and other groups have stated they do not use Hospitals as staging areas are pretty much exposed here. So no winners in this scenario.
CCTV footage showed members of an undercover unit disguised as medics and other civilians making their way through a corridor with rifles raised.
The Israeli military said the men were hiding in the Jenin hospital, and that one was about to carry out an attack. The Palestinian Authority's ministry of health accused Israel of carrying out a "new massacre inside hospitals".
Hamas, an armed Palestinian Islamist group which is fighting a war with Israel in Gaza triggered by its unprecedented attacks on Israel on 7 October, said the Israeli forces had "executed three fighters", including one of its members.
Another armed group, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, said two of those killed were its members and were brothers. It added that one of them had been receiving treatment at the hospital.
The security camera video from Ibn Sina hospital shows several members of the Israeli undercover unit - men and women - hurrying through a corridor, training their weapons left and right. One can be seen taking a piece of clothing of an unidentified person who is kneeling down with his hands behind his head, then covering his head with it.
Tensions have soared in the West Bank since the 7 October attacks, with near daily Israeli arrest raids and clashes with Palestinians. Jenin, a militant stronghold, has been a focus of such raids for months.
Since 7 October, Israeli forces have killed at least 357 Palestinians - militants, civilians and attackers - in the West Bank, while Israeli settlers have killed at least eight, according to the United Nations.
Palestinians from the West Bank have killed at least 10 Israelis in attacks in the West Bank and Israel in the same period.
In a statement, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said the Hamas suspect who was killed had "planned a raid attack inspired by the October 7th massacre". On that date, waves of Hamas gunmen invaded Israel from Gaza, killed about 1,300 people - mainly civilians - and took about 250 others back to Gaza as hostages.
The attack triggered Israel's military campaign in Gaza, with the declared aim of destroying Hamas. The Hamas-run health ministry in Gaza says more than 26,600 Palestinians - mostly women and children - have been killed in the Israeli offensive.
The official Palestinian news agency in the West Bank, Wafa, said the three Palestinians in the hospital had been "assassinated".
According to its sources in the hospital, about 10 members of Israeli special forces dressed in civilian clothes went to the third floor, where they killed the men using weapons fitted with silencers.
One of the PIJ members who was killed had been receiving treatment for an injury in the hospital since 25 October, it added.
No it wouldn't be a war crime, if it was the IDF would not release the video. This is more or less what people have been asking for, more precision attacks and less bombs. This is basically the only way to get the Hamas members who are using the hospitals as bases of operation. 3 terrorists gone and no civilian casualties. This is something that everyone should be happy with no?
Famously no warring party has ever released footage of war crimes... If Hamas releases a video of something, is it automatically a war crime and if Israel releases one it automatically isn't? Is that how this works? Things that you approve of, whether logically or instinctively, can still be war crimes and the same goes in reverse.
The question in this case appears to be whether the people killed were injured fighters in the hospital for treatment, in which case it is a war crime, or whether they weren't injured, in which case it wasn't. Seems like both sides are claiming the opposite on that one and the video doesn't show anything on that front so it's hard to say.
Israel actually cares about public opinion and is not dumb enough to release a video of them committing a war crime. But if you think they are that dumb, then why do you think they are hiding other things? Wouldn't they just proudly share it as well? This double think is so annoying.
Hamas is a terrorist organization so they do not care about war crimes. Their videos were war crimes because they were war crimes. Their goal is to create terror in the world. Are you arguing that the slaughter and torture of civilians is not a war crime? If Hamas spread the video of them shooting the rocket at the tank that killed IDF members (what was it 12 soldiers?) that would not make it a war crime. Now if those fighters staged their attack at a hospital, school or day care it would be.
How would you like them to get the terrorists using the hospitals as bases?
Edit: btw taking of hostages is a war crime, one of the first mentioned. So ya when you video, murder, torute and hostage taking of civilians it is clear war crimes.
My first paragraph was pointing out the logical flaws in your sentence, nothing more. I will not engage with your 10 sentences of strawmen.
As for the last sentence before the edit, I would like for them to get them when they are not in the hospital.
@Stealthblue You do know Netanyahu/Israel have preemptively refused the general terms outlined in that ceasefire agreement?
It's in no small part due to the influence hard right ultranationalists (who recently had a gathering for the resettlement of Gaza) have:
US, UK, France blast Israeli confab on Gaza resettlement attended by PM’s allies
The White House on Monday slammed a conference on Sunday night in Jerusalem aimed at encouraging the reestablishment of Israeli settlements in the Gaza Strip, which was attended by nearly one-third of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s cabinet.
A statement issued by a National Security Council spokesperson said the US is “troubled” by the gathering, particularly due to the host of controversial statements by participants calling for the mass displacement of Gaza’s Palestinian population.
France also condemned the Sunday conference, with its foreign ministry saying in a statement that it expected the Israeli government to “clearly denounce the positions” championed at the gathering.
“In this respect, France recalls that the International Court of Justice recently set out Israel’s obligation to take all measures within its power to prevent and punish this kind of rhetoric,” the foreign ministry statement added, referring to the ICJ initial ruling regarding South Africa’s allegation that Israel is perpetrating genocide in Gaza.
Thousands of attendees from the religious Zionist community attended Sunday’s boisterous conference.
Several of the lawmakers who addressed the event, including far-right National Security Minister Itamar Ben Gvir, spoke about “encouraging voluntary emigration” of Palestinians from Gaza, as well as resettling the Strip, which Israel withdrew from in 2005. Participants broke into singing and dancing, with Ben Gvir among those seen joining the celebrations. Communications Minister Shlomo Karhi, a member of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s Likud party, went further, suggesting that the emigration need not be voluntary during wartime.
Netanyahu did not condemn the presence of senior government officials at Sunday evening’s event...
Over the past several weeks, the IDF has been razing Palestinian homes along the border to establish the buffer zone, sparking alarm in Washington, which has insisted that there be no reduction in Gaza’s territory after the war.
The US official said that the Biden administration is not on board with even a temporary buffer zone and has voiced that stance with Jerusalem.
Washington believes that once established, Israel will not agree to withdraw from the buffer zone, the US official added.
On January 31 2024 00:56 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Well this won't help the IDF much. As I am pretty sure medics are not supposed to be carrying weapons, especially hidden ones. When they are in fact special forces designed to get to a specific place or an area to kill a person. But no civilians were hurt, or killed just those three members. So obvious they knew who they were after.
Would this not be labeled a war crime? Unless said fighters can been identified as legit targets Plus Hamas and other groups have stated they do not use Hospitals as staging areas are pretty much exposed here. So no winners in this scenario.
CCTV footage showed members of an undercover unit disguised as medics and other civilians making their way through a corridor with rifles raised.
The Israeli military said the men were hiding in the Jenin hospital, and that one was about to carry out an attack. The Palestinian Authority's ministry of health accused Israel of carrying out a "new massacre inside hospitals".
Hamas, an armed Palestinian Islamist group which is fighting a war with Israel in Gaza triggered by its unprecedented attacks on Israel on 7 October, said the Israeli forces had "executed three fighters", including one of its members.
Another armed group, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, said two of those killed were its members and were brothers. It added that one of them had been receiving treatment at the hospital.
The security camera video from Ibn Sina hospital shows several members of the Israeli undercover unit - men and women - hurrying through a corridor, training their weapons left and right. One can be seen taking a piece of clothing of an unidentified person who is kneeling down with his hands behind his head, then covering his head with it.
Tensions have soared in the West Bank since the 7 October attacks, with near daily Israeli arrest raids and clashes with Palestinians. Jenin, a militant stronghold, has been a focus of such raids for months.
Since 7 October, Israeli forces have killed at least 357 Palestinians - militants, civilians and attackers - in the West Bank, while Israeli settlers have killed at least eight, according to the United Nations.
Palestinians from the West Bank have killed at least 10 Israelis in attacks in the West Bank and Israel in the same period.
In a statement, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said the Hamas suspect who was killed had "planned a raid attack inspired by the October 7th massacre". On that date, waves of Hamas gunmen invaded Israel from Gaza, killed about 1,300 people - mainly civilians - and took about 250 others back to Gaza as hostages.
The attack triggered Israel's military campaign in Gaza, with the declared aim of destroying Hamas. The Hamas-run health ministry in Gaza says more than 26,600 Palestinians - mostly women and children - have been killed in the Israeli offensive.
The official Palestinian news agency in the West Bank, Wafa, said the three Palestinians in the hospital had been "assassinated".
According to its sources in the hospital, about 10 members of Israeli special forces dressed in civilian clothes went to the third floor, where they killed the men using weapons fitted with silencers.
One of the PIJ members who was killed had been receiving treatment for an injury in the hospital since 25 October, it added.
No it wouldn't be a war crime, if it was the IDF would not release the video. This is more or less what people have been asking for, more precision attacks and less bombs. This is basically the only way to get the Hamas members who are using the hospitals as bases of operation. 3 terrorists gone and no civilian casualties. This is something that everyone should be happy with no?
Famously no warring party has ever released footage of war crimes... If Hamas releases a video of something, is it automatically a war crime and if Israel releases one it automatically isn't? Is that how this works? Things that you approve of, whether logically or instinctively, can still be war crimes and the same goes in reverse.
The question in this case appears to be whether the people killed were injured fighters in the hospital for treatment, in which case it is a war crime, or whether they weren't injured, in which case it wasn't. Seems like both sides are claiming the opposite on that one and the video doesn't show anything on that front so it's hard to say.
Israel actually cares about public opinion and is not dumb enough to release a video of them committing a war crime. But if you think they are that dumb, then why do you think they are hiding other things? Wouldn't they just proudly share it as well? This double think is so annoying.
Hamas is a terrorist organization so they do not care about war crimes. Their videos were war crimes because they were war crimes. Their goal is to create terror in the world. Are you arguing that the slaughter and torture of civilians is not a war crime? If Hamas spread the video of them shooting the rocket at the tank that killed IDF members (what was it 12 soldiers?) that would not make it a war crime. Now if those fighters staged their attack at a hospital, school or day care it would be.
How would you like them to get the terrorists using the hospitals as bases?
Edit: btw taking of hostages is a war crime, one of the first mentioned. So ya when you video, murder, torute and hostage taking of civilians it is clear war crimes.
My first paragraph was pointing out the logical flaws in your sentence, nothing more. I will not engage with your 10 sentences of strawmen.
As for the last sentence before the edit, I would like for them to get them when they are not in the hospital.
It was not a logical flaw it was you disingenuously interrupting the post.
Wouldn't you rather Hamas follow international law and not use the hospitals? That would keep all civilians safe.
edit: You also have to realize that this "If Hamas releases a video of something, is it automatically a war crime and if Israel releases one it automatically isn't? " was a straw man and not close to what I said right? Why woudl you not expect me to respond in kind? Like WTF?!?!?
How can I interrupt your post when it was literally the first thing you wrote?
You asked 'How would you like them to get the terrorists using the hospitals as bases?'. This is a question about what I'd like 'them', in this case 'Israel'/'the state of Israel' to do. I answered by stating what I'd like Israel to do. You then respond by saying I should have denounced Hamas instead. This is obviously an insane response.
For the record, I denounce all terrorist activities, including but not limited to those of Hamas and Islamitic Jihad. I also wish for everybody on earth to follow international law, including Hamas, the PLO, Israel, USA, the Netherlands, the Myanmar regime, North Korea, New Zealand and Barbados.
As for your edit, half of that sentence is literally what you wrote and the other half is putting that logic to the other extreme.
On January 29 2024 21:27 Magic Powers wrote: 30 000 people are employed at the UNRWA, mostly Palestinians. Before an investigation has even taken place they've fired 12 of them over the accusations of participating in the October 7 attack. An investigation is currently underway. As a consequence, funding to the entire organization has been halted.
I can't say I'm surprised. While Israel rejects every investigation into IDF conduct and yet continues to receive international aid, the UNRWA immediately conducts an investigation and fires its employees yet has international aid withdrawn. This is despite the UNRWA being a humanitarian organization that saves peoples lives while the IDF causes tens of thousands of deaths. Amazing priorities of the countries supporting Israel.
Important to note it's essentially the only functional humanitarian organization left in Gaza, so it's basically the US reinvigorating Israel's pursuit to collectively punish Palestinians.
And the consequence of that collective punishment will be more adversity, more hatred and more conflict. It's counterproductive to withhold funding since those considered to be guilty have already been removed and the investigation is ongoing. That should've been the only thing required to demonstrate goodwill, but apparently it wasn't enough.
The UNRWA is being held to an unrealistically high standard. They're predominantly Palestinians, so a tiny overlap with extremists is practically unavoidable. If funding to the entire org gets withdrawn every single time individual members take part in terrorist activity, that would lead to a collapse of vast amounts of humanitarian efforts towards Palestinians.
You can bomb civilians on the off chance you nail an extremist, but you can’t give aid to civilians on the off chance some of it goes to an extremist, or there are extremists in the aid org.
You know the guy with the guns can just take ALL of the aid, and give nothing to the general population right? And then give it to his other armed friends. While everyone else has to starve? And then,as bonus they can just point the finger at the bad guys, and say its their fault that everyones starving right now. Works wonders for recruitment too. Take this weapon, kill some baddies, we'll give your family some food. Keep killing, we keep giving food.
Humanitarian aid for the general population is awesome and should 100% be encouraged. Aid through the hands of an oppressor, becomes a conflict driving tool. I don't know who actually has their hands on the aid first in palestine. Neither does anyone else here. I trust that the the people who brought you PRISM know tho. I hope they act accotdingly when deciding if aid is to be handed out.
You don’t know but you’re postulating a rather specific hypothetical?
I doubt Hamas would enjoy the support they do if they were hoarding and dictating where basic humanitarian supplies go. Even with deflecting ultimate blame to Israel, or attempting to there’s still a limit on how far you can push it. Blackmailing people for basic sustenance in order to recruit them seems to cross that line IMO.
Even de facto using people as human shields you can justify with the cause and ‘we’re all in this together’, that whole justification falls apart if you start starving the very people you claim to be fighting for.
Also it’s not like all of this aid is particularly useful for anything other than its intended purpose either. If it’s basic foodstuffs and perishables I mean you don’t have easy access to markets to sell, even if you did what are you going to do with the proceeds without free access to the outside world? May as well just use them for their intended purpose.
Maybe I’m entirely wrong, but I don’t think it makes much political sense for Hamas to engage in such behaviour on any scale.
Its not a hypothetical. Its human nature. The strong / armed take evrything they can carry. Controlling resources like food and medical supplies is the 101 of using power. Has been since the antique. Centralize supplies and give it only to compliant people. Kill or starve the others to ensure a steady stream of compliant people.
To be very clear: I am pro aiding civillians in all conflict zones. I am also aware enough of human behaviour, to know that aid doesn't get to where it needs to go, unless handed out to affected individuals directly. Without the armed warriors realizing this is happening. Conflicts in africa of the last several decades have shown this. Time and time again Doeant matter If you send trucks or airdrop aid, armed warriors will come and take it from the people in need.
How to best abuse the power of supply control, is only a matter of cruelty and imagination.
On January 31 2024 04:10 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: Well this a major development. Makes me wonder if Hamas is about to announce an agreement of the ceasefire terms or something similar.
Sounds to me more like they realize that they may have just awoken the bear (America) by killing American troops and would rather not be wiped off the map.
A ceasefire agreement between Hamas and Israel is hard to reach because Israel's goal remains to remove Hamas from power, while Hamas' goal is to stay in power. Israel doesn't want to accept a permanent ceasefire because that means leaving Hamas in power to break said ceasefire at the time of their choosing (like they did with Oct 7 and many times before). Hamas doesn't want to give up all the hostages for anything less than a permanent ceasefire because that is the last leverage they have for any sort of negotiation that leaves them alive.
Both sides are going to blame the other for "not accepting the terms of their proposals," but the reality is they both just keep making proposals that assume that the other side will be willing to be flexible on their current stance on "does Hamas get to stay in power after the dust settles". Israel will keep making proposals for a temporary ceasefire (read: brief pause before finishing off Hamas). Hamas will keep making proposals for a permanent ceasefire (read: Israel surrendering and retreating).
On January 29 2024 21:27 Magic Powers wrote: 30 000 people are employed at the UNRWA, mostly Palestinians. Before an investigation has even taken place they've fired 12 of them over the accusations of participating in the October 7 attack. An investigation is currently underway. As a consequence, funding to the entire organization has been halted.
I can't say I'm surprised. While Israel rejects every investigation into IDF conduct and yet continues to receive international aid, the UNRWA immediately conducts an investigation and fires its employees yet has international aid withdrawn. This is despite the UNRWA being a humanitarian organization that saves peoples lives while the IDF causes tens of thousands of deaths. Amazing priorities of the countries supporting Israel.
Important to note it's essentially the only functional humanitarian organization left in Gaza, so it's basically the US reinvigorating Israel's pursuit to collectively punish Palestinians.
And the consequence of that collective punishment will be more adversity, more hatred and more conflict. It's counterproductive to withhold funding since those considered to be guilty have already been removed and the investigation is ongoing. That should've been the only thing required to demonstrate goodwill, but apparently it wasn't enough.
The UNRWA is being held to an unrealistically high standard. They're predominantly Palestinians, so a tiny overlap with extremists is practically unavoidable. If funding to the entire org gets withdrawn every single time individual members take part in terrorist activity, that would lead to a collapse of vast amounts of humanitarian efforts towards Palestinians.
You can bomb civilians on the off chance you nail an extremist, but you can’t give aid to civilians on the off chance some of it goes to an extremist, or there are extremists in the aid org.
You know the guy with the guns can just take ALL of the aid, and give nothing to the general population right? And then give it to his other armed friends. While everyone else has to starve? And then,as bonus they can just point the finger at the bad guys, and say its their fault that everyones starving right now. Works wonders for recruitment too. Take this weapon, kill some baddies, we'll give your family some food. Keep killing, we keep giving food.
Humanitarian aid for the general population is awesome and should 100% be encouraged. Aid through the hands of an oppressor, becomes a conflict driving tool. I don't know who actually has their hands on the aid first in palestine. Neither does anyone else here. I trust that the the people who brought you PRISM know tho. I hope they act accotdingly when deciding if aid is to be handed out.
You don’t know but you’re postulating a rather specific hypothetical?
I doubt Hamas would enjoy the support they do if they were hoarding and dictating where basic humanitarian supplies go. Even with deflecting ultimate blame to Israel, or attempting to there’s still a limit on how far you can push it. Blackmailing people for basic sustenance in order to recruit them seems to cross that line IMO.
Even de facto using people as human shields you can justify with the cause and ‘we’re all in this together’, that whole justification falls apart if you start starving the very people you claim to be fighting for.
Also it’s not like all of this aid is particularly useful for anything other than its intended purpose either. If it’s basic foodstuffs and perishables I mean you don’t have easy access to markets to sell, even if you did what are you going to do with the proceeds without free access to the outside world? May as well just use them for their intended purpose.
Maybe I’m entirely wrong, but I don’t think it makes much political sense for Hamas to engage in such behaviour on any scale.
Its not a hypothetical. Its human nature. The strong / armed take evrything they can carry. Controlling resources like food and medical supplies is the 101 of using power. Has been since the antique. Centralize supplies and give it only to compliant people. Kill or starve the others to ensure a steady stream of compliant people.
To be very clear: I am pro aiding civillians in all conflict zones. I am also aware enough of human behaviour, to know that aid doesn't get to where it needs to go, unless handed out to affected individuals directly. Without the armed warriors realizing this is happening. Conflicts in africa of the last several decades have shown this. Time and time again Doeant matter If you send trucks or airdrop aid, armed warriors will come and take it from the people in need.
How to best abuse the power of supply control, is only a matter of cruelty and imagination.
Aid includes things like food, clothes, bags, diapers. The higher-ups in Hamas don't benefit from hoarding those items, they want them to end up in Palestinian hands so they maintain/increase support and prevent internal turmoil. Most of the wealth of the top Hamas members doesn't come from that aid.
On January 29 2024 21:27 Magic Powers wrote: 30 000 people are employed at the UNRWA, mostly Palestinians. Before an investigation has even taken place they've fired 12 of them over the accusations of participating in the October 7 attack. An investigation is currently underway. As a consequence, funding to the entire organization has been halted.
I can't say I'm surprised. While Israel rejects every investigation into IDF conduct and yet continues to receive international aid, the UNRWA immediately conducts an investigation and fires its employees yet has international aid withdrawn. This is despite the UNRWA being a humanitarian organization that saves peoples lives while the IDF causes tens of thousands of deaths. Amazing priorities of the countries supporting Israel.
Important to note it's essentially the only functional humanitarian organization left in Gaza, so it's basically the US reinvigorating Israel's pursuit to collectively punish Palestinians.
And the consequence of that collective punishment will be more adversity, more hatred and more conflict. It's counterproductive to withhold funding since those considered to be guilty have already been removed and the investigation is ongoing. That should've been the only thing required to demonstrate goodwill, but apparently it wasn't enough.
The UNRWA is being held to an unrealistically high standard. They're predominantly Palestinians, so a tiny overlap with extremists is practically unavoidable. If funding to the entire org gets withdrawn every single time individual members take part in terrorist activity, that would lead to a collapse of vast amounts of humanitarian efforts towards Palestinians.
You can bomb civilians on the off chance you nail an extremist, but you can’t give aid to civilians on the off chance some of it goes to an extremist, or there are extremists in the aid org.
You know the guy with the guns can just take ALL of the aid, and give nothing to the general population right? And then give it to his other armed friends. While everyone else has to starve? And then,as bonus they can just point the finger at the bad guys, and say its their fault that everyones starving right now. Works wonders for recruitment too. Take this weapon, kill some baddies, we'll give your family some food. Keep killing, we keep giving food.
Humanitarian aid for the general population is awesome and should 100% be encouraged. Aid through the hands of an oppressor, becomes a conflict driving tool. I don't know who actually has their hands on the aid first in palestine. Neither does anyone else here. I trust that the the people who brought you PRISM know tho. I hope they act accotdingly when deciding if aid is to be handed out.
You don’t know but you’re postulating a rather specific hypothetical?
I doubt Hamas would enjoy the support they do if they were hoarding and dictating where basic humanitarian supplies go. Even with deflecting ultimate blame to Israel, or attempting to there’s still a limit on how far you can push it. Blackmailing people for basic sustenance in order to recruit them seems to cross that line IMO.
Even de facto using people as human shields you can justify with the cause and ‘we’re all in this together’, that whole justification falls apart if you start starving the very people you claim to be fighting for.
Also it’s not like all of this aid is particularly useful for anything other than its intended purpose either. If it’s basic foodstuffs and perishables I mean you don’t have easy access to markets to sell, even if you did what are you going to do with the proceeds without free access to the outside world? May as well just use them for their intended purpose.
Maybe I’m entirely wrong, but I don’t think it makes much political sense for Hamas to engage in such behaviour on any scale.
Its not a hypothetical. Its human nature. The strong / armed take evrything they can carry. Controlling resources like food and medical supplies is the 101 of using power. Has been since the antique. Centralize supplies and give it only to compliant people. Kill or starve the others to ensure a steady stream of compliant people.
To be very clear: I am pro aiding civillians in all conflict zones. I am also aware enough of human behaviour, to know that aid doesn't get to where it needs to go, unless handed out to affected individuals directly. Without the armed warriors realizing this is happening. Conflicts in africa of the last several decades have shown this. Time and time again Doeant matter If you send trucks or airdrop aid, armed warriors will come and take it from the people in need.
How to best abuse the power of supply control, is only a matter of cruelty and imagination.
Aid includes things like food, clothes, bags, diapers. The higher-ups in Hamas don't benefit from hoarding those items, they want them to end up in Palestinian hands so they maintain/increase support and prevent internal turmoil. Most of the wealth of the top Hamas members doesn't come from that aid.
Source or assumption your typing as fact?
Do you ever source your claims Hamas just hoards everything?
All me and Magic have done is apply some logic here, as I said it may be wrong but it doesn’t intuitively make sense for Hamas to shit where they eat by withholding such aid. It’s of little military use, where are they going to sell it on and it’ll just alienate the wider populace.
Expatriate leadership, those insulated from the populace absolutely do engage in self-aggrandisement, a claim you have made that I checked out your source and more on and that seems unarguably true.
EPT
