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NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. |
On January 31 2024 08:16 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2024 07:53 JimmiC wrote:On January 31 2024 07:47 Magic Powers wrote:On January 31 2024 07:35 Branch.AUT wrote:On January 31 2024 00:14 WombaT wrote:On January 30 2024 22:17 Branch.AUT wrote:On January 30 2024 10:02 WombaT wrote:On January 30 2024 05:19 Magic Powers wrote:On January 30 2024 04:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 29 2024 21:27 Magic Powers wrote:
30 000 people are employed at the UNRWA, mostly Palestinians. Before an investigation has even taken place they've fired 12 of them over the accusations of participating in the October 7 attack. An investigation is currently underway.
As a consequence, funding to the entire organization has been halted.
I can't say I'm surprised. While Israel rejects every investigation into IDF conduct and yet continues to receive international aid, the UNRWA immediately conducts an investigation and fires its employees yet has international aid withdrawn. This is despite the UNRWA being a humanitarian organization that saves peoples lives while the IDF causes tens of thousands of deaths.
Amazing priorities of the countries supporting Israel. Important to note it's essentially the only functional humanitarian organization left in Gaza, so it's basically the US reinvigorating Israel's pursuit to collectively punish Palestinians. And the consequence of that collective punishment will be more adversity, more hatred and more conflict. It's counterproductive to withhold funding since those considered to be guilty have already been removed and the investigation is ongoing. That should've been the only thing required to demonstrate goodwill, but apparently it wasn't enough. The UNRWA is being held to an unrealistically high standard. They're predominantly Palestinians, so a tiny overlap with extremists is practically unavoidable. If funding to the entire org gets withdrawn every single time individual members take part in terrorist activity, that would lead to a collapse of vast amounts of humanitarian efforts towards Palestinians. You can bomb civilians on the off chance you nail an extremist, but you can’t give aid to civilians on the off chance some of it goes to an extremist, or there are extremists in the aid org. You know the guy with the guns can just take ALL of the aid, and give nothing to the general population right? And then give it to his other armed friends. While everyone else has to starve? And then,as bonus they can just point the finger at the bad guys, and say its their fault that everyones starving right now. Works wonders for recruitment too. Take this weapon, kill some baddies, we'll give your family some food. Keep killing, we keep giving food. Humanitarian aid for the general population is awesome and should 100% be encouraged. Aid through the hands of an oppressor, becomes a conflict driving tool. I don't know who actually has their hands on the aid first in palestine. Neither does anyone else here. I trust that the the people who brought you PRISM know tho. I hope they act accotdingly when deciding if aid is to be handed out. You don’t know but you’re postulating a rather specific hypothetical? I doubt Hamas would enjoy the support they do if they were hoarding and dictating where basic humanitarian supplies go. Even with deflecting ultimate blame to Israel, or attempting to there’s still a limit on how far you can push it. Blackmailing people for basic sustenance in order to recruit them seems to cross that line IMO. Even de facto using people as human shields you can justify with the cause and ‘we’re all in this together’, that whole justification falls apart if you start starving the very people you claim to be fighting for. Also it’s not like all of this aid is particularly useful for anything other than its intended purpose either. If it’s basic foodstuffs and perishables I mean you don’t have easy access to markets to sell, even if you did what are you going to do with the proceeds without free access to the outside world? May as well just use them for their intended purpose. Maybe I’m entirely wrong, but I don’t think it makes much political sense for Hamas to engage in such behaviour on any scale. Its not a hypothetical. Its human nature. The strong / armed take evrything they can carry. Controlling resources like food and medical supplies is the 101 of using power. Has been since the antique. Centralize supplies and give it only to compliant people. Kill or starve the others to ensure a steady stream of compliant people. To be very clear: I am pro aiding civillians in all conflict zones. I am also aware enough of human behaviour, to know that aid doesn't get to where it needs to go, unless handed out to affected individuals directly. Without the armed warriors realizing this is happening. Conflicts in africa of the last several decades have shown this. Time and time again Doeant matter If you send trucks or airdrop aid, armed warriors will come and take it from the people in need. How to best abuse the power of supply control, is only a matter of cruelty and imagination. Aid includes things like food, clothes, bags, diapers. The higher-ups in Hamas don't benefit from hoarding those items, they want them to end up in Palestinian hands so they maintain/increase support and prevent internal turmoil. Most of the wealth of the top Hamas members doesn't come from that aid. Source or assumption your typing as fact? Do you ever source your claims Hamas just hoards everything? All me and Magic have done is apply some logic here, as I said it may be wrong but it doesn’t intuitively make sense for Hamas to shit where they eat by withholding such aid. It’s of little military use, where are they going to sell it on and it’ll just alienate the wider populace. Expatriate leadership, those insulated from the populace absolutely do engage in self-aggrandisement, a claim you have made that I checked out your source and more on and that seems unarguably true.
In people's minds, the moment a person does something as evil as Hamas did, they no longer believe that Hamas can ever do anything that is good for goodness sake - not even if it would rationally benefit Hamas' crusade.
Hamas can only be evil through and through, rather than doing evil for a righteous cause, and doing good for the people they're actually fighting for. It all rests on that single base assumption.
This is also one of the reasons why the idea persists that all the Palestinian deaths that we've seen and will be seeing are justified in order to destroy Hamas. If Hamas is so evil that they could just as well be demons spawned from hell, then any level of atrocity is justified to destroy Hamas. If absolutely no goodness, no selfless actions at all, can be detected in Hamas, then the automatic conclusion is that these tens of thousands of Palestinian deaths are in service of Israelis. Some even go so far as to argue that these Palestinians deaths are in service of Palestinians themselves.
Some have already argued that in this thread, whether they did so knowingly or not.
The irony is lost on people that this view is what they accuse Hamas of. That Hamas is willing to commit evil to destroy evil. The same accusation has been thrown at the Israeli government and the IDF. Tens of thousands of Palestinian deaths don't have the capacity to change people's minds.
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On January 31 2024 00:14 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2024 22:17 Branch.AUT wrote:On January 30 2024 10:02 WombaT wrote:On January 30 2024 05:19 Magic Powers wrote:On January 30 2024 04:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 29 2024 21:27 Magic Powers wrote:
30 000 people are employed at the UNRWA, mostly Palestinians. Before an investigation has even taken place they've fired 12 of them over the accusations of participating in the October 7 attack. An investigation is currently underway.
As a consequence, funding to the entire organization has been halted.
I can't say I'm surprised. While Israel rejects every investigation into IDF conduct and yet continues to receive international aid, the UNRWA immediately conducts an investigation and fires its employees yet has international aid withdrawn. This is despite the UNRWA being a humanitarian organization that saves peoples lives while the IDF causes tens of thousands of deaths.
Amazing priorities of the countries supporting Israel. Important to note it's essentially the only functional humanitarian organization left in Gaza, so it's basically the US reinvigorating Israel's pursuit to collectively punish Palestinians. And the consequence of that collective punishment will be more adversity, more hatred and more conflict. It's counterproductive to withhold funding since those considered to be guilty have already been removed and the investigation is ongoing. That should've been the only thing required to demonstrate goodwill, but apparently it wasn't enough. The UNRWA is being held to an unrealistically high standard. They're predominantly Palestinians, so a tiny overlap with extremists is practically unavoidable. If funding to the entire org gets withdrawn every single time individual members take part in terrorist activity, that would lead to a collapse of vast amounts of humanitarian efforts towards Palestinians. You can bomb civilians on the off chance you nail an extremist, but you can’t give aid to civilians on the off chance some of it goes to an extremist, or there are extremists in the aid org. You know the guy with the guns can just take ALL of the aid, and give nothing to the general population right? And then give it to his other armed friends. While everyone else has to starve? And then,as bonus they can just point the finger at the bad guys, and say its their fault that everyones starving right now. Works wonders for recruitment too. Take this weapon, kill some baddies, we'll give your family some food. Keep killing, we keep giving food. Humanitarian aid for the general population is awesome and should 100% be encouraged. Aid through the hands of an oppressor, becomes a conflict driving tool. I don't know who actually has their hands on the aid first in palestine. Neither does anyone else here. I trust that the the people who brought you PRISM know tho. I hope they act accotdingly when deciding if aid is to be handed out. You don’t know but you’re postulating a rather specific hypothetical? I doubt Hamas would enjoy the support they do if they were hoarding and dictating where basic humanitarian supplies go. Even with deflecting ultimate blame to Israel, or attempting to there’s still a limit on how far you can push it. Blackmailing people for basic sustenance in order to recruit them seems to cross that line IMO. Even de facto using people as human shields you can justify with the cause and ‘we’re all in this together’, that whole justification falls apart if you start starving the very people you claim to be fighting for. Also it’s not like all of this aid is particularly useful for anything other than its intended purpose either. If it’s basic foodstuffs and perishables I mean you don’t have easy access to markets to sell, even if you did what are you going to do with the proceeds without free access to the outside world? May as well just use them for their intended purpose. Maybe I’m entirely wrong, but I don’t think it makes much political sense for Hamas to engage in such behaviour on any scale.
Gazans have been complaining on social media about the high prices of food, tents, etc. Which is odd given that these items are being primarily delivered as donations intended to be free for the recipients.
Going rates for donated tents:
United Arab Emirates tent: NIS 4000
Qatari tent: NIS 3200
Turkish tent: 2500 NIS
Pakistani tent: 2000 NIS
I'm not sure who is acting as the deliverer of these goods. It's either Hamas taking the money to buy armaments and enrich themselves, or UNRWA lining their pockets (these prices were from before their funding freeze).
So the goods themselves are reaching people, but the people are paying full price for them (or more). Which means the real beneficiaries are the people running things, as they extract value out of the desperate people that they govern.
Edit: Although, it's not clear from here what percent reach the market vs are hoarded by Hamas. I'd wager that a lot of canned foods, fuel, water, and things that are useful while hiding in a tunnel under siege are more likely to disappear while things like diapers just get sold.
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Northern Ireland26327 Posts
On January 31 2024 08:26 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2024 08:16 WombaT wrote:On January 31 2024 07:53 JimmiC wrote:On January 31 2024 07:47 Magic Powers wrote:On January 31 2024 07:35 Branch.AUT wrote:On January 31 2024 00:14 WombaT wrote:On January 30 2024 22:17 Branch.AUT wrote:On January 30 2024 10:02 WombaT wrote:On January 30 2024 05:19 Magic Powers wrote:On January 30 2024 04:45 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Important to note it's essentially the only functional humanitarian organization left in Gaza, so it's basically the US reinvigorating Israel's pursuit to collectively punish Palestinians. And the consequence of that collective punishment will be more adversity, more hatred and more conflict. It's counterproductive to withhold funding since those considered to be guilty have already been removed and the investigation is ongoing. That should've been the only thing required to demonstrate goodwill, but apparently it wasn't enough. The UNRWA is being held to an unrealistically high standard. They're predominantly Palestinians, so a tiny overlap with extremists is practically unavoidable. If funding to the entire org gets withdrawn every single time individual members take part in terrorist activity, that would lead to a collapse of vast amounts of humanitarian efforts towards Palestinians. You can bomb civilians on the off chance you nail an extremist, but you can’t give aid to civilians on the off chance some of it goes to an extremist, or there are extremists in the aid org. You know the guy with the guns can just take ALL of the aid, and give nothing to the general population right? And then give it to his other armed friends. While everyone else has to starve? And then,as bonus they can just point the finger at the bad guys, and say its their fault that everyones starving right now. Works wonders for recruitment too. Take this weapon, kill some baddies, we'll give your family some food. Keep killing, we keep giving food. Humanitarian aid for the general population is awesome and should 100% be encouraged. Aid through the hands of an oppressor, becomes a conflict driving tool. I don't know who actually has their hands on the aid first in palestine. Neither does anyone else here. I trust that the the people who brought you PRISM know tho. I hope they act accotdingly when deciding if aid is to be handed out. You don’t know but you’re postulating a rather specific hypothetical? I doubt Hamas would enjoy the support they do if they were hoarding and dictating where basic humanitarian supplies go. Even with deflecting ultimate blame to Israel, or attempting to there’s still a limit on how far you can push it. Blackmailing people for basic sustenance in order to recruit them seems to cross that line IMO. Even de facto using people as human shields you can justify with the cause and ‘we’re all in this together’, that whole justification falls apart if you start starving the very people you claim to be fighting for. Also it’s not like all of this aid is particularly useful for anything other than its intended purpose either. If it’s basic foodstuffs and perishables I mean you don’t have easy access to markets to sell, even if you did what are you going to do with the proceeds without free access to the outside world? May as well just use them for their intended purpose. Maybe I’m entirely wrong, but I don’t think it makes much political sense for Hamas to engage in such behaviour on any scale. Its not a hypothetical. Its human nature. The strong / armed take evrything they can carry. Controlling resources like food and medical supplies is the 101 of using power. Has been since the antique. Centralize supplies and give it only to compliant people. Kill or starve the others to ensure a steady stream of compliant people. To be very clear: I am pro aiding civillians in all conflict zones. I am also aware enough of human behaviour, to know that aid doesn't get to where it needs to go, unless handed out to affected individuals directly. Without the armed warriors realizing this is happening. Conflicts in africa of the last several decades have shown this. Time and time again Doeant matter If you send trucks or airdrop aid, armed warriors will come and take it from the people in need. How to best abuse the power of supply control, is only a matter of cruelty and imagination. Aid includes things like food, clothes, bags, diapers. The higher-ups in Hamas don't benefit from hoarding those items, they want them to end up in Palestinian hands so they maintain/increase support and prevent internal turmoil. Most of the wealth of the top Hamas members doesn't come from that aid. Source or assumption your typing as fact? Do you ever source your claims Hamas just hoards everything? All me and Magic have done is apply some logic here, as I said it may be wrong but it doesn’t intuitively make sense for Hamas to shit where they eat by withholding such aid. It’s of little military use, where are they going to sell it on and it’ll just alienate the wider populace. Expatriate leadership, those insulated from the populace absolutely do engage in self-aggrandisement, a claim you have made that I checked out your source and more on and that seems unarguably true. Um yes, I probably post the most sources or second to stealth. Maybe if you read them and did research not on social media these facts that are being presented to you would make sense. If MP (or you) wants to share his uninformed opinion he and everyone else has the right to. You just phrase it like an opinion and there are many many ways to do so.(I think, my opinion, best guess is, I presume) But if you want to state things like fact the forum rules are that you post a source. That it offends you (and so many others) because of the extremely high regard you hold your assumptions too is not my problem. Just source your shit, it’s not a big ask. They don’t sell it, they give it to the people in Palestine as long as they follow their rules. It is one of the ways they maintain power and control.This is also common practice in dictatorships. They also store lots so they can withstand sieges and give only the minimum to the people so they are desperate and need them.
I doubt Hamas would enjoy the support they do if they were hoarding and dictating where basic humanitarian supplies go. Even with deflecting ultimate blame to Israel, or attempting to there’s still a limit on how far you can push it. Blackmailing people for basic sustenance in order to recruit them seems to cross that line IMO.
Even de facto using people as human shields you can justify with the cause and ‘we’re all in this together’, that whole justification falls apart if you start starving the very people you claim to be fighting for.
Also it’s not like all of this aid is particularly useful for anything other than its intended purpose either. If it’s basic foodstuffs and perishables I mean you don’t have easy access to markets to sell, even if you did what are you going to do with the proceeds without free access to the outside world? May as well just use them for their intended purpose.
Maybe I’m entirely wrong, but I don’t think it makes much political sense for Hamas to engage in such behaviour on any scale.
I’m really unsure how much more additional phrasing you need for it to be my opinion/logical extrapolation? Am I going crazy here folks?
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On January 31 2024 08:26 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2024 08:16 WombaT wrote:On January 31 2024 07:53 JimmiC wrote:On January 31 2024 07:47 Magic Powers wrote:On January 31 2024 07:35 Branch.AUT wrote:On January 31 2024 00:14 WombaT wrote:On January 30 2024 22:17 Branch.AUT wrote:On January 30 2024 10:02 WombaT wrote:On January 30 2024 05:19 Magic Powers wrote:On January 30 2024 04:45 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Important to note it's essentially the only functional humanitarian organization left in Gaza, so it's basically the US reinvigorating Israel's pursuit to collectively punish Palestinians. And the consequence of that collective punishment will be more adversity, more hatred and more conflict. It's counterproductive to withhold funding since those considered to be guilty have already been removed and the investigation is ongoing. That should've been the only thing required to demonstrate goodwill, but apparently it wasn't enough. The UNRWA is being held to an unrealistically high standard. They're predominantly Palestinians, so a tiny overlap with extremists is practically unavoidable. If funding to the entire org gets withdrawn every single time individual members take part in terrorist activity, that would lead to a collapse of vast amounts of humanitarian efforts towards Palestinians. You can bomb civilians on the off chance you nail an extremist, but you can’t give aid to civilians on the off chance some of it goes to an extremist, or there are extremists in the aid org. You know the guy with the guns can just take ALL of the aid, and give nothing to the general population right? And then give it to his other armed friends. While everyone else has to starve? And then,as bonus they can just point the finger at the bad guys, and say its their fault that everyones starving right now. Works wonders for recruitment too. Take this weapon, kill some baddies, we'll give your family some food. Keep killing, we keep giving food. Humanitarian aid for the general population is awesome and should 100% be encouraged. Aid through the hands of an oppressor, becomes a conflict driving tool. I don't know who actually has their hands on the aid first in palestine. Neither does anyone else here. I trust that the the people who brought you PRISM know tho. I hope they act accotdingly when deciding if aid is to be handed out. You don’t know but you’re postulating a rather specific hypothetical? I doubt Hamas would enjoy the support they do if they were hoarding and dictating where basic humanitarian supplies go. Even with deflecting ultimate blame to Israel, or attempting to there’s still a limit on how far you can push it. Blackmailing people for basic sustenance in order to recruit them seems to cross that line IMO. Even de facto using people as human shields you can justify with the cause and ‘we’re all in this together’, that whole justification falls apart if you start starving the very people you claim to be fighting for. Also it’s not like all of this aid is particularly useful for anything other than its intended purpose either. If it’s basic foodstuffs and perishables I mean you don’t have easy access to markets to sell, even if you did what are you going to do with the proceeds without free access to the outside world? May as well just use them for their intended purpose. Maybe I’m entirely wrong, but I don’t think it makes much political sense for Hamas to engage in such behaviour on any scale. Its not a hypothetical. Its human nature. The strong / armed take evrything they can carry. Controlling resources like food and medical supplies is the 101 of using power. Has been since the antique. Centralize supplies and give it only to compliant people. Kill or starve the others to ensure a steady stream of compliant people. To be very clear: I am pro aiding civillians in all conflict zones. I am also aware enough of human behaviour, to know that aid doesn't get to where it needs to go, unless handed out to affected individuals directly. Without the armed warriors realizing this is happening. Conflicts in africa of the last several decades have shown this. Time and time again Doeant matter If you send trucks or airdrop aid, armed warriors will come and take it from the people in need. How to best abuse the power of supply control, is only a matter of cruelty and imagination. Aid includes things like food, clothes, bags, diapers. The higher-ups in Hamas don't benefit from hoarding those items, they want them to end up in Palestinian hands so they maintain/increase support and prevent internal turmoil. Most of the wealth of the top Hamas members doesn't come from that aid. Source or assumption your typing as fact? Do you ever source your claims Hamas just hoards everything? All me and Magic have done is apply some logic here, as I said it may be wrong but it doesn’t intuitively make sense for Hamas to shit where they eat by withholding such aid. It’s of little military use, where are they going to sell it on and it’ll just alienate the wider populace. Expatriate leadership, those insulated from the populace absolutely do engage in self-aggrandisement, a claim you have made that I checked out your source and more on and that seems unarguably true. Um yes, I probably post the most sources or second to stealth. Maybe if you read them and did research not on social media these facts that are being presented to you would make sense. If MP (or you) wants to share his uninformed opinion he and everyone else has the right to. You just phrase it like an opinion and there are many many ways to do so.(I think, my opinion, best guess is, I presume) But if you want to state things like fact the forum rules are that you post a source. That it offends you (and so many others) because of the extremely high regard you hold your assumptions too is not my problem. Just source your shit, it’s not a big ask. They don’t sell it, they give it to the people in Palestine as long as they follow their rules. It is one of the ways they maintain power and control.This is also common practice in dictatorships. They also store lots so they can withstand sieges and give only the minimum to the people so they are desperate and need them.
Translating the bold, that's a "No, I haven't sourced it, but still took your assertion that I haven't personally."
I tend to fall on the side of "The terrorist organization probably IS hoarding diapers and using them to control the populace" for the reasons Branch cites. Expecting no corruption in this case seems horribly naive, and "Terrorists can't use diapers" does't really hold much water. They can use any necessary good to control people.
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Show nested quote +On January 31 2024 10:57 JimmiC wrote:On January 31 2024 10:07 WombaT wrote:On January 31 2024 08:26 JimmiC wrote:On January 31 2024 08:16 WombaT wrote:On January 31 2024 07:53 JimmiC wrote:On January 31 2024 07:47 Magic Powers wrote:On January 31 2024 07:35 Branch.AUT wrote:On January 31 2024 00:14 WombaT wrote:On January 30 2024 22:17 Branch.AUT wrote:
[quote]
You know the guy with the guns can just take ALL of the aid, and give nothing to the general population right? And then give it to his other armed friends. While everyone else has to starve?
And then,as bonus they can just point the finger at the bad guys, and say its their fault that everyones starving right now. Works wonders for recruitment too. Take this weapon, kill some baddies, we'll give your family some food. Keep killing, we keep giving food.
Humanitarian aid for the general population is awesome and should 100% be encouraged.
Aid through the hands of an oppressor, becomes a conflict driving tool.
I don't know who actually has their hands on the aid first in palestine. Neither does anyone else here. I trust that the the people who brought you PRISM know tho. I hope they act accotdingly when deciding if aid is to be handed out. You don’t know but you’re postulating a rather specific hypothetical? I doubt Hamas would enjoy the support they do if they were hoarding and dictating where basic humanitarian supplies go. Even with deflecting ultimate blame to Israel, or attempting to there’s still a limit on how far you can push it. Blackmailing people for basic sustenance in order to recruit them seems to cross that line IMO. Even de facto using people as human shields you can justify with the cause and ‘we’re all in this together’, that whole justification falls apart if you start starving the very people you claim to be fighting for. Also it’s not like all of this aid is particularly useful for anything other than its intended purpose either. If it’s basic foodstuffs and perishables I mean you don’t have easy access to markets to sell, even if you did what are you going to do with the proceeds without free access to the outside world? May as well just use them for their intended purpose. Maybe I’m entirely wrong, but I don’t think it makes much political sense for Hamas to engage in such behaviour on any scale. Its not a hypothetical. Its human nature. The strong / armed take evrything they can carry. Controlling resources like food and medical supplies is the 101 of using power. Has been since the antique. Centralize supplies and give it only to compliant people. Kill or starve the others to ensure a steady stream of compliant people. To be very clear: I am pro aiding civillians in all conflict zones. I am also aware enough of human behaviour, to know that aid doesn't get to where it needs to go, unless handed out to affected individuals directly. Without the armed warriors realizing this is happening. Conflicts in africa of the last several decades have shown this. Time and time again Doeant matter If you send trucks or airdrop aid, armed warriors will come and take it from the people in need. How to best abuse the power of supply control, is only a matter of cruelty and imagination. Aid includes things like food, clothes, bags, diapers. The higher-ups in Hamas don't benefit from hoarding those items, they want them to end up in Palestinian hands so they maintain/increase support and prevent internal turmoil. Most of the wealth of the top Hamas members doesn't come from that aid. Source or assumption your typing as fact? Do you ever source your claims Hamas just hoards everything? All me and Magic have done is apply some logic here, as I said it may be wrong but it doesn’t intuitively make sense for Hamas to shit where they eat by withholding such aid. It’s of little military use, where are they going to sell it on and it’ll just alienate the wider populace. Expatriate leadership, those insulated from the populace absolutely do engage in self-aggrandisement, a claim you have made that I checked out your source and more on and that seems unarguably true. Um yes, I probably post the most sources or second to stealth. Maybe if you read them and did research not on social media these facts that are being presented to you would make sense. If MP (or you) wants to share his uninformed opinion he and everyone else has the right to. You just phrase it like an opinion and there are many many ways to do so.(I think, my opinion, best guess is, I presume) But if you want to state things like fact the forum rules are that you post a source. That it offends you (and so many others) because of the extremely high regard you hold your assumptions too is not my problem. Just source your shit, it’s not a big ask. They don’t sell it, they give it to the people in Palestine as long as they follow their rules. It is one of the ways they maintain power and control.This is also common practice in dictatorships. They also store lots so they can withstand sieges and give only the minimum to the people so they are desperate and need them. I doubt Hamas would enjoy the support they do if they were hoarding and dictating where basic humanitarian supplies go. Even with deflecting ultimate blame to Israel, or attempting to there’s still a limit on how far you can push it. Blackmailing people for basic sustenance in order to recruit them seems to cross that line IMO.
Even de facto using people as human shields you can justify with the cause and ‘we’re all in this together’, that whole justification falls apart if you start starving the very people you claim to be fighting for.
Also it’s not like all of this aid is particularly useful for anything other than its intended purpose either. If it’s basic foodstuffs and perishables I mean you don’t have easy access to markets to sell, even if you did what are you going to do with the proceeds without free access to the outside world? May as well just use them for their intended purpose.
Maybe I’m entirely wrong, but I don’t think it makes much political sense for Hamas to engage in such behaviour on any scale.I’m really unsure how much more additional phrasing you need for it to be my opinion/logical extrapolation? Am I going crazy here folks? Clearly you have not read the posts that me and others have made with explanations and evidence. Some of us are not just guessing when we write shit. But you can tell when we are because we state it. Edit: here is a couple of past sources. It is shockingly easy to provide sources for facts. https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/27/world/middleeast/palestine-gazans-hamas-food.htmlhttps://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20231128-rare-survey-details-how-gazans-wary-of-hamas-before-israel-attackhttps://dianefrancis.substack.com/p/the-hamas-mafiahttps://nymag.com/intelligencer/2023/10/dont-blame-gazans-for-hamas.htmlQUOTE] On January 31 2024 10:37 Fleetfeet wrote:On January 31 2024 08:26 JimmiC wrote:On January 31 2024 08:16 WombaT wrote:On January 31 2024 07:53 JimmiC wrote:On January 31 2024 07:47 Magic Powers wrote:On January 31 2024 07:35 Branch.AUT wrote:On January 31 2024 00:14 WombaT wrote:On January 30 2024 22:17 Branch.AUT wrote:On January 30 2024 10:02 WombaT wrote:
[quote]
You can bomb civilians on the off chance you nail an extremist, but you can’t give aid to civilians on the off chance some of it goes to an extremist, or there are extremists in the aid org. You know the guy with the guns can just take ALL of the aid, and give nothing to the general population right? And then give it to his other armed friends. While everyone else has to starve? And then,as bonus they can just point the finger at the bad guys, and say its their fault that everyones starving right now. Works wonders for recruitment too. Take this weapon, kill some baddies, we'll give your family some food. Keep killing, we keep giving food. Humanitarian aid for the general population is awesome and should 100% be encouraged. Aid through the hands of an oppressor, becomes a conflict driving tool. I don't know who actually has their hands on the aid first in palestine. Neither does anyone else here. I trust that the the people who brought you PRISM know tho. I hope they act accotdingly when deciding if aid is to be handed out. You don’t know but you’re postulating a rather specific hypothetical? I doubt Hamas would enjoy the support they do if they were hoarding and dictating where basic humanitarian supplies go. Even with deflecting ultimate blame to Israel, or attempting to there’s still a limit on how far you can push it. Blackmailing people for basic sustenance in order to recruit them seems to cross that line IMO. Even de facto using people as human shields you can justify with the cause and ‘we’re all in this together’, that whole justification falls apart if you start starving the very people you claim to be fighting for. Also it’s not like all of this aid is particularly useful for anything other than its intended purpose either. If it’s basic foodstuffs and perishables I mean you don’t have easy access to markets to sell, even if you did what are you going to do with the proceeds without free access to the outside world? May as well just use them for their intended purpose. Maybe I’m entirely wrong, but I don’t think it makes much political sense for Hamas to engage in such behaviour on any scale. Its not a hypothetical. Its human nature. The strong / armed take evrything they can carry. Controlling resources like food and medical supplies is the 101 of using power. Has been since the antique. Centralize supplies and give it only to compliant people. Kill or starve the others to ensure a steady stream of compliant people. To be very clear: I am pro aiding civillians in all conflict zones. I am also aware enough of human behaviour, to know that aid doesn't get to where it needs to go, unless handed out to affected individuals directly. Without the armed warriors realizing this is happening. Conflicts in africa of the last several decades have shown this. Time and time again Doeant matter If you send trucks or airdrop aid, armed warriors will come and take it from the people in need. How to best abuse the power of supply control, is only a matter of cruelty and imagination. Aid includes things like food, clothes, bags, diapers. The higher-ups in Hamas don't benefit from hoarding those items, they want them to end up in Palestinian hands so they maintain/increase support and prevent internal turmoil. Most of the wealth of the top Hamas members doesn't come from that aid. Source or assumption your typing as fact? Do you ever source your claims Hamas just hoards everything? All me and Magic have done is apply some logic here, as I said it may be wrong but it doesn’t intuitively make sense for Hamas to shit where they eat by withholding such aid. It’s of little military use, where are they going to sell it on and it’ll just alienate the wider populace. Expatriate leadership, those insulated from the populace absolutely do engage in self-aggrandisement, a claim you have made that I checked out your source and more on and that seems unarguably true. Um yes, I probably post the most sources or second to stealth. Maybe if you read them and did research not on social media these facts that are being presented to you would make sense. If MP (or you) wants to share his uninformed opinion he and everyone else has the right to. You just phrase it like an opinion and there are many many ways to do so.(I think, my opinion, best guess is, I presume) But if you want to state things like fact the forum rules are that you post a source. That it offends you (and so many others) because of the extremely high regard you hold your assumptions too is not my problem. Just source your shit, it’s not a big ask. They don’t sell it, they give it to the people in Palestine as long as they follow their rules. It is one of the ways they maintain power and control.This is also common practice in dictatorships. They also store lots so they can withstand sieges and give only the minimum to the people so they are desperate and need them. Translating the bold, that's a "No, I haven't sourced it, but still took your assertion that I haven't personally." I tend to fall on the side of "The terrorist organization probably IS hoarding diapers and using them to control the populace" for the reasons Branch cites. Expecting no corruption in this case seems horribly naive, and "Terrorists can't use diapers" does't really hold much water. They can use any necessary good to control people. 73% of Gazans agree with you. And I wonder what percentage of the 27% that do not are members of Hamas?
73% of Gazans agree with me? On what, my translation of your words?
Here I assumed 100% of gazans have no idea who I am and have more important things to worry about than my opinion on anything! I guess I'm a big deal.
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Northern Ireland26327 Posts
Why couldn’t you just have posted those sources first time around instead of erroneously saying I was not presenting my post as personal opinion when I clearly, clearly did so?
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Northern Ireland26327 Posts
On January 31 2024 09:49 Cerebrate1 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2024 00:14 WombaT wrote:On January 30 2024 22:17 Branch.AUT wrote:On January 30 2024 10:02 WombaT wrote:On January 30 2024 05:19 Magic Powers wrote:On January 30 2024 04:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 29 2024 21:27 Magic Powers wrote:
30 000 people are employed at the UNRWA, mostly Palestinians. Before an investigation has even taken place they've fired 12 of them over the accusations of participating in the October 7 attack. An investigation is currently underway.
As a consequence, funding to the entire organization has been halted.
I can't say I'm surprised. While Israel rejects every investigation into IDF conduct and yet continues to receive international aid, the UNRWA immediately conducts an investigation and fires its employees yet has international aid withdrawn. This is despite the UNRWA being a humanitarian organization that saves peoples lives while the IDF causes tens of thousands of deaths.
Amazing priorities of the countries supporting Israel. Important to note it's essentially the only functional humanitarian organization left in Gaza, so it's basically the US reinvigorating Israel's pursuit to collectively punish Palestinians. And the consequence of that collective punishment will be more adversity, more hatred and more conflict. It's counterproductive to withhold funding since those considered to be guilty have already been removed and the investigation is ongoing. That should've been the only thing required to demonstrate goodwill, but apparently it wasn't enough. The UNRWA is being held to an unrealistically high standard. They're predominantly Palestinians, so a tiny overlap with extremists is practically unavoidable. If funding to the entire org gets withdrawn every single time individual members take part in terrorist activity, that would lead to a collapse of vast amounts of humanitarian efforts towards Palestinians. You can bomb civilians on the off chance you nail an extremist, but you can’t give aid to civilians on the off chance some of it goes to an extremist, or there are extremists in the aid org. You know the guy with the guns can just take ALL of the aid, and give nothing to the general population right? And then give it to his other armed friends. While everyone else has to starve? And then,as bonus they can just point the finger at the bad guys, and say its their fault that everyones starving right now. Works wonders for recruitment too. Take this weapon, kill some baddies, we'll give your family some food. Keep killing, we keep giving food. Humanitarian aid for the general population is awesome and should 100% be encouraged. Aid through the hands of an oppressor, becomes a conflict driving tool. I don't know who actually has their hands on the aid first in palestine. Neither does anyone else here. I trust that the the people who brought you PRISM know tho. I hope they act accotdingly when deciding if aid is to be handed out. You don’t know but you’re postulating a rather specific hypothetical? I doubt Hamas would enjoy the support they do if they were hoarding and dictating where basic humanitarian supplies go. Even with deflecting ultimate blame to Israel, or attempting to there’s still a limit on how far you can push it. Blackmailing people for basic sustenance in order to recruit them seems to cross that line IMO. Even de facto using people as human shields you can justify with the cause and ‘we’re all in this together’, that whole justification falls apart if you start starving the very people you claim to be fighting for. Also it’s not like all of this aid is particularly useful for anything other than its intended purpose either. If it’s basic foodstuffs and perishables I mean you don’t have easy access to markets to sell, even if you did what are you going to do with the proceeds without free access to the outside world? May as well just use them for their intended purpose. Maybe I’m entirely wrong, but I don’t think it makes much political sense for Hamas to engage in such behaviour on any scale. Gazans have been complaining on social media about the high prices of food, tents, etc. Which is odd given that these items are being primarily delivered as donations intended to be free for the recipients. Going rates for donated tents: United Arab Emirates tent: NIS 4000 Qatari tent: NIS 3200 Turkish tent: 2500 NIS Pakistani tent: 2000 NIS I'm not sure who is acting as the deliverer of these goods. It's either Hamas taking the money to buy armaments and enrich themselves, or UNRWA lining their pockets (these prices were from before their funding freeze). So the goods themselves are reaching people, but the people are paying full price for them (or more). Which means the real beneficiaries are the people running things, as they extract value out of the desperate people that they govern. Edit: Although, it's not clear from here what percent reach the market vs are hoarded by Hamas. I'd wager that a lot of canned foods, fuel, water, and things that are useful while hiding in a tunnel under siege are more likely to disappear while things like diapers just get sold.
It would certainly track that things useful to hoard in the tunnel networks would end up there first. Or monetary aid ends up in certain pockets and doesn’t circulate more widely.
More perishable foods, or items that aren’t especially useful for any insurgent effort, no sense hoarding.
I’m unsure really how the wider economy would even work in such an environment that’s de facto closed off, albeit Hamas have their ways of moving goods in and out of the territory.
Cheers for the response, what do those prices you list roughly correspond to in terms of weekly/monthly income? Not a currency I’m familiar with and as I said I’m struggling to envision how an economy even functions under such duress.
I don’t think it’s particularly under dispute that Hamas controls distribution, redirects aid, be it for their cause, or self-aggrandisement to some degree, whatever the actual number is. Maybe it is, I’m only speaking for myself after all my pushback here was more against the ‘Hamas leverage starvation to control the populace’ points folks made which I don’t particularly agree with.
Terrorists, if they’re embedded and trying to blend in to their communities, well one they are part of that community by default. And sure you’ll still get total bastard psychopath types but Joe average probably doesn’t want to terrorise their families, friends, acquaintances on a daily basis.
Shoot collaborators and oppress by various means absolutely but there crosses a line where it becomes counter-productive
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On January 31 2024 12:12 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2024 09:49 Cerebrate1 wrote:On January 31 2024 00:14 WombaT wrote:On January 30 2024 22:17 Branch.AUT wrote:On January 30 2024 10:02 WombaT wrote:On January 30 2024 05:19 Magic Powers wrote:On January 30 2024 04:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 29 2024 21:27 Magic Powers wrote:
30 000 people are employed at the UNRWA, mostly Palestinians. Before an investigation has even taken place they've fired 12 of them over the accusations of participating in the October 7 attack. An investigation is currently underway.
As a consequence, funding to the entire organization has been halted.
I can't say I'm surprised. While Israel rejects every investigation into IDF conduct and yet continues to receive international aid, the UNRWA immediately conducts an investigation and fires its employees yet has international aid withdrawn. This is despite the UNRWA being a humanitarian organization that saves peoples lives while the IDF causes tens of thousands of deaths.
Amazing priorities of the countries supporting Israel. Important to note it's essentially the only functional humanitarian organization left in Gaza, so it's basically the US reinvigorating Israel's pursuit to collectively punish Palestinians. And the consequence of that collective punishment will be more adversity, more hatred and more conflict. It's counterproductive to withhold funding since those considered to be guilty have already been removed and the investigation is ongoing. That should've been the only thing required to demonstrate goodwill, but apparently it wasn't enough. The UNRWA is being held to an unrealistically high standard. They're predominantly Palestinians, so a tiny overlap with extremists is practically unavoidable. If funding to the entire org gets withdrawn every single time individual members take part in terrorist activity, that would lead to a collapse of vast amounts of humanitarian efforts towards Palestinians. You can bomb civilians on the off chance you nail an extremist, but you can’t give aid to civilians on the off chance some of it goes to an extremist, or there are extremists in the aid org. You know the guy with the guns can just take ALL of the aid, and give nothing to the general population right? And then give it to his other armed friends. While everyone else has to starve? And then,as bonus they can just point the finger at the bad guys, and say its their fault that everyones starving right now. Works wonders for recruitment too. Take this weapon, kill some baddies, we'll give your family some food. Keep killing, we keep giving food. Humanitarian aid for the general population is awesome and should 100% be encouraged. Aid through the hands of an oppressor, becomes a conflict driving tool. I don't know who actually has their hands on the aid first in palestine. Neither does anyone else here. I trust that the the people who brought you PRISM know tho. I hope they act accotdingly when deciding if aid is to be handed out. You don’t know but you’re postulating a rather specific hypothetical? I doubt Hamas would enjoy the support they do if they were hoarding and dictating where basic humanitarian supplies go. Even with deflecting ultimate blame to Israel, or attempting to there’s still a limit on how far you can push it. Blackmailing people for basic sustenance in order to recruit them seems to cross that line IMO. Even de facto using people as human shields you can justify with the cause and ‘we’re all in this together’, that whole justification falls apart if you start starving the very people you claim to be fighting for. Also it’s not like all of this aid is particularly useful for anything other than its intended purpose either. If it’s basic foodstuffs and perishables I mean you don’t have easy access to markets to sell, even if you did what are you going to do with the proceeds without free access to the outside world? May as well just use them for their intended purpose. Maybe I’m entirely wrong, but I don’t think it makes much political sense for Hamas to engage in such behaviour on any scale. Gazans have been complaining on social media about the high prices of food, tents, etc. Which is odd given that these items are being primarily delivered as donations intended to be free for the recipients. Going rates for donated tents: United Arab Emirates tent: NIS 4000 Qatari tent: NIS 3200 Turkish tent: 2500 NIS Pakistani tent: 2000 NIS I'm not sure who is acting as the deliverer of these goods. It's either Hamas taking the money to buy armaments and enrich themselves, or UNRWA lining their pockets (these prices were from before their funding freeze). So the goods themselves are reaching people, but the people are paying full price for them (or more). Which means the real beneficiaries are the people running things, as they extract value out of the desperate people that they govern. Edit: Although, it's not clear from here what percent reach the market vs are hoarded by Hamas. I'd wager that a lot of canned foods, fuel, water, and things that are useful while hiding in a tunnel under siege are more likely to disappear while things like diapers just get sold. It would certainly track that things useful to hoard in the tunnel networks would end up there first. Or monetary aid ends up in certain pockets and doesn’t circulate more widely.
More perishable foods, or items that aren’t especially useful for any insurgent effort, no sense hoarding.
I’m unsure really how the wider economy would even work in such an environment that’s de facto closed off, albeit Hamas have their ways of moving goods in and out of the territory. Cheers for the response, what do those prices you list roughly correspond to in terms of weekly/monthly income? Not a currency I’m familiar with and as I said I’m struggling to envision how an economy even functions under such duress. I don’t think it’s particularly under dispute that Hamas controls distribution, redirects aid, be it for their cause, or self-aggrandisement to some degree, whatever the actual number is. Maybe it is, I’m only speaking for myself after all my pushback here was more against the ‘Hamas leverage starvation to control the populace’ points folks made which I don’t particularly agree with. Terrorists, if they’re embedded and trying to blend in to their communities, well one they are part of that community by default. And sure you’ll still get total bastard psychopath types but Joe average probably doesn’t want to terrorise their families, friends, acquaintances on a daily basis. Shoot collaborators and oppress by various means absolutely but there crosses a line where it becomes counter-productive
I agree with you wombat. Hoarding food and clothes isnt useful for hamas. Having a giant pile of aid materials is pointless.
It is not them hoarding. The DISTRIBUTION of the aid materials is where the power comes from.
Imagine this scenario. You have two apples. Two people arrive at your table while youre working. Both are hungry. You are hungry too. You eat one apple. Theres two hungry people,and one apple left.
Person a says, they will plow your field for this apple.
Person B says, I will go shoot evil persons this apple.
You get to decide the outcome of the situation. Not by hoarding the apple. But deciding who gets an apple. So when you give person b the apple, person a will see this. When person a gets hungry enough, and they know they get an apple if they offer to take up arms, guess what person a does.
The apple is symbolic for humanitarian aid. The you in this example, is whoever controls how this aid is distributed. Controlling who gets what, is the essence of power.
Whether you agree with it or not. Starving some people and feeding others is the tool of the oppressor. A tool that has been used since the antique and presumably well before that. When people get hungry enough they will do anything to get food.
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On January 31 2024 20:08 Branch.AUT wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2024 12:12 WombaT wrote:On January 31 2024 09:49 Cerebrate1 wrote:On January 31 2024 00:14 WombaT wrote:On January 30 2024 22:17 Branch.AUT wrote:On January 30 2024 10:02 WombaT wrote:On January 30 2024 05:19 Magic Powers wrote:On January 30 2024 04:45 GreenHorizons wrote:On January 29 2024 21:27 Magic Powers wrote:
30 000 people are employed at the UNRWA, mostly Palestinians. Before an investigation has even taken place they've fired 12 of them over the accusations of participating in the October 7 attack. An investigation is currently underway.
As a consequence, funding to the entire organization has been halted.
I can't say I'm surprised. While Israel rejects every investigation into IDF conduct and yet continues to receive international aid, the UNRWA immediately conducts an investigation and fires its employees yet has international aid withdrawn. This is despite the UNRWA being a humanitarian organization that saves peoples lives while the IDF causes tens of thousands of deaths.
Amazing priorities of the countries supporting Israel. Important to note it's essentially the only functional humanitarian organization left in Gaza, so it's basically the US reinvigorating Israel's pursuit to collectively punish Palestinians. And the consequence of that collective punishment will be more adversity, more hatred and more conflict. It's counterproductive to withhold funding since those considered to be guilty have already been removed and the investigation is ongoing. That should've been the only thing required to demonstrate goodwill, but apparently it wasn't enough. The UNRWA is being held to an unrealistically high standard. They're predominantly Palestinians, so a tiny overlap with extremists is practically unavoidable. If funding to the entire org gets withdrawn every single time individual members take part in terrorist activity, that would lead to a collapse of vast amounts of humanitarian efforts towards Palestinians. You can bomb civilians on the off chance you nail an extremist, but you can’t give aid to civilians on the off chance some of it goes to an extremist, or there are extremists in the aid org. You know the guy with the guns can just take ALL of the aid, and give nothing to the general population right? And then give it to his other armed friends. While everyone else has to starve? And then,as bonus they can just point the finger at the bad guys, and say its their fault that everyones starving right now. Works wonders for recruitment too. Take this weapon, kill some baddies, we'll give your family some food. Keep killing, we keep giving food. Humanitarian aid for the general population is awesome and should 100% be encouraged. Aid through the hands of an oppressor, becomes a conflict driving tool. I don't know who actually has their hands on the aid first in palestine. Neither does anyone else here. I trust that the the people who brought you PRISM know tho. I hope they act accotdingly when deciding if aid is to be handed out. You don’t know but you’re postulating a rather specific hypothetical? I doubt Hamas would enjoy the support they do if they were hoarding and dictating where basic humanitarian supplies go. Even with deflecting ultimate blame to Israel, or attempting to there’s still a limit on how far you can push it. Blackmailing people for basic sustenance in order to recruit them seems to cross that line IMO. Even de facto using people as human shields you can justify with the cause and ‘we’re all in this together’, that whole justification falls apart if you start starving the very people you claim to be fighting for. Also it’s not like all of this aid is particularly useful for anything other than its intended purpose either. If it’s basic foodstuffs and perishables I mean you don’t have easy access to markets to sell, even if you did what are you going to do with the proceeds without free access to the outside world? May as well just use them for their intended purpose. Maybe I’m entirely wrong, but I don’t think it makes much political sense for Hamas to engage in such behaviour on any scale. Gazans have been complaining on social media about the high prices of food, tents, etc. Which is odd given that these items are being primarily delivered as donations intended to be free for the recipients. Going rates for donated tents: United Arab Emirates tent: NIS 4000 Qatari tent: NIS 3200 Turkish tent: 2500 NIS Pakistani tent: 2000 NIS I'm not sure who is acting as the deliverer of these goods. It's either Hamas taking the money to buy armaments and enrich themselves, or UNRWA lining their pockets (these prices were from before their funding freeze). So the goods themselves are reaching people, but the people are paying full price for them (or more). Which means the real beneficiaries are the people running things, as they extract value out of the desperate people that they govern. Edit: Although, it's not clear from here what percent reach the market vs are hoarded by Hamas. I'd wager that a lot of canned foods, fuel, water, and things that are useful while hiding in a tunnel under siege are more likely to disappear while things like diapers just get sold. It would certainly track that things useful to hoard in the tunnel networks would end up there first. Or monetary aid ends up in certain pockets and doesn’t circulate more widely.
More perishable foods, or items that aren’t especially useful for any insurgent effort, no sense hoarding.
I’m unsure really how the wider economy would even work in such an environment that’s de facto closed off, albeit Hamas have their ways of moving goods in and out of the territory. Cheers for the response, what do those prices you list roughly correspond to in terms of weekly/monthly income? Not a currency I’m familiar with and as I said I’m struggling to envision how an economy even functions under such duress. I don’t think it’s particularly under dispute that Hamas controls distribution, redirects aid, be it for their cause, or self-aggrandisement to some degree, whatever the actual number is. Maybe it is, I’m only speaking for myself after all my pushback here was more against the ‘Hamas leverage starvation to control the populace’ points folks made which I don’t particularly agree with. Terrorists, if they’re embedded and trying to blend in to their communities, well one they are part of that community by default. And sure you’ll still get total bastard psychopath types but Joe average probably doesn’t want to terrorise their families, friends, acquaintances on a daily basis. Shoot collaborators and oppress by various means absolutely but there crosses a line where it becomes counter-productive I agree with you wombat. Hoarding food and clothes isnt useful for hamas. Having a giant pile of aid materials is pointless. It is not them hoarding. The DISTRIBUTION of the aid materials is where the power comes from. Imagine this scenario. You have two apples. Two people arrive at your table while youre working. Both are hungry. You are hungry too. You eat one apple. Theres two hungry people,and one apple left. Person a says, they will plow your field for this apple. Person B says, I will go shoot evil persons this apple. You get to decide the outcome of the situation. Not by hoarding the apple. But deciding who gets an apple. So when you give person b the apple, person a will see this. When person a gets hungry enough, and they know they get an apple if they offer to take up arms, guess what person a does. The apple is symbolic for humanitarian aid. The you in this example, is whoever controls how this aid is distributed. Controlling who gets what, is the essence of power. Whether you agree with it or not. Starving some people and feeding others is the tool of the oppressor. A tool that has been used since the antique and presumably well before that. When people get hungry enough they will do anything to get food.
That sounds bad. This organization would probably lose a lot of power if person A and B didn't need humanitarian aid to get their apples, it's inconvenient that there's a natural disaster in the region that's forcing them to be dependant on humanitarian aid.
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On January 31 2024 22:34 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2024 20:12 Nebuchad wrote:On January 31 2024 20:08 Branch.AUT wrote:On January 31 2024 12:12 WombaT wrote:On January 31 2024 09:49 Cerebrate1 wrote:On January 31 2024 00:14 WombaT wrote:On January 30 2024 22:17 Branch.AUT wrote:On January 30 2024 10:02 WombaT wrote:On January 30 2024 05:19 Magic Powers wrote:On January 30 2024 04:45 GreenHorizons wrote:
[quote]
Important to note it's essentially the only functional humanitarian organization left in Gaza, so it's basically the US reinvigorating Israel's pursuit to collectively punish Palestinians. And the consequence of that collective punishment will be more adversity, more hatred and more conflict. It's counterproductive to withhold funding since those considered to be guilty have already been removed and the investigation is ongoing. That should've been the only thing required to demonstrate goodwill, but apparently it wasn't enough. The UNRWA is being held to an unrealistically high standard. They're predominantly Palestinians, so a tiny overlap with extremists is practically unavoidable. If funding to the entire org gets withdrawn every single time individual members take part in terrorist activity, that would lead to a collapse of vast amounts of humanitarian efforts towards Palestinians. You can bomb civilians on the off chance you nail an extremist, but you can’t give aid to civilians on the off chance some of it goes to an extremist, or there are extremists in the aid org. You know the guy with the guns can just take ALL of the aid, and give nothing to the general population right? And then give it to his other armed friends. While everyone else has to starve? And then,as bonus they can just point the finger at the bad guys, and say its their fault that everyones starving right now. Works wonders for recruitment too. Take this weapon, kill some baddies, we'll give your family some food. Keep killing, we keep giving food. Humanitarian aid for the general population is awesome and should 100% be encouraged. Aid through the hands of an oppressor, becomes a conflict driving tool. I don't know who actually has their hands on the aid first in palestine. Neither does anyone else here. I trust that the the people who brought you PRISM know tho. I hope they act accotdingly when deciding if aid is to be handed out. You don’t know but you’re postulating a rather specific hypothetical? I doubt Hamas would enjoy the support they do if they were hoarding and dictating where basic humanitarian supplies go. Even with deflecting ultimate blame to Israel, or attempting to there’s still a limit on how far you can push it. Blackmailing people for basic sustenance in order to recruit them seems to cross that line IMO. Even de facto using people as human shields you can justify with the cause and ‘we’re all in this together’, that whole justification falls apart if you start starving the very people you claim to be fighting for. Also it’s not like all of this aid is particularly useful for anything other than its intended purpose either. If it’s basic foodstuffs and perishables I mean you don’t have easy access to markets to sell, even if you did what are you going to do with the proceeds without free access to the outside world? May as well just use them for their intended purpose. Maybe I’m entirely wrong, but I don’t think it makes much political sense for Hamas to engage in such behaviour on any scale. Gazans have been complaining on social media about the high prices of food, tents, etc. Which is odd given that these items are being primarily delivered as donations intended to be free for the recipients. Going rates for donated tents: United Arab Emirates tent: NIS 4000 Qatari tent: NIS 3200 Turkish tent: 2500 NIS Pakistani tent: 2000 NIS I'm not sure who is acting as the deliverer of these goods. It's either Hamas taking the money to buy armaments and enrich themselves, or UNRWA lining their pockets (these prices were from before their funding freeze). So the goods themselves are reaching people, but the people are paying full price for them (or more). Which means the real beneficiaries are the people running things, as they extract value out of the desperate people that they govern. Edit: Although, it's not clear from here what percent reach the market vs are hoarded by Hamas. I'd wager that a lot of canned foods, fuel, water, and things that are useful while hiding in a tunnel under siege are more likely to disappear while things like diapers just get sold. It would certainly track that things useful to hoard in the tunnel networks would end up there first. Or monetary aid ends up in certain pockets and doesn’t circulate more widely.
More perishable foods, or items that aren’t especially useful for any insurgent effort, no sense hoarding.
I’m unsure really how the wider economy would even work in such an environment that’s de facto closed off, albeit Hamas have their ways of moving goods in and out of the territory. Cheers for the response, what do those prices you list roughly correspond to in terms of weekly/monthly income? Not a currency I’m familiar with and as I said I’m struggling to envision how an economy even functions under such duress. I don’t think it’s particularly under dispute that Hamas controls distribution, redirects aid, be it for their cause, or self-aggrandisement to some degree, whatever the actual number is. Maybe it is, I’m only speaking for myself after all my pushback here was more against the ‘Hamas leverage starvation to control the populace’ points folks made which I don’t particularly agree with. Terrorists, if they’re embedded and trying to blend in to their communities, well one they are part of that community by default. And sure you’ll still get total bastard psychopath types but Joe average probably doesn’t want to terrorise their families, friends, acquaintances on a daily basis. Shoot collaborators and oppress by various means absolutely but there crosses a line where it becomes counter-productive I agree with you wombat. Hoarding food and clothes isnt useful for hamas. Having a giant pile of aid materials is pointless. It is not them hoarding. The DISTRIBUTION of the aid materials is where the power comes from. Imagine this scenario. You have two apples. Two people arrive at your table while youre working. Both are hungry. You are hungry too. You eat one apple. Theres two hungry people,and one apple left. Person a says, they will plow your field for this apple. Person B says, I will go shoot evil persons this apple. You get to decide the outcome of the situation. Not by hoarding the apple. But deciding who gets an apple. So when you give person b the apple, person a will see this. When person a gets hungry enough, and they know they get an apple if they offer to take up arms, guess what person a does. The apple is symbolic for humanitarian aid. The you in this example, is whoever controls how this aid is distributed. Controlling who gets what, is the essence of power. Whether you agree with it or not. Starving some people and feeding others is the tool of the oppressor. A tool that has been used since the antique and presumably well before that. When people get hungry enough they will do anything to get food. That sounds bad. This organization would probably lose a lot of power if person A and B didn't need humanitarian aid to get their apples, it's inconvenient that there's a natural disaster in the region that's forcing them to be dependant on humanitarian aid. Devious of them to create the “natural” disaster. Since this was the clear and obvious, predictable reaction to their actions.
Which actions specifically?
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On February 01 2024 01:18 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2024 23:06 Nebuchad wrote:On January 31 2024 22:34 JimmiC wrote:On January 31 2024 20:12 Nebuchad wrote:On January 31 2024 20:08 Branch.AUT wrote:On January 31 2024 12:12 WombaT wrote:On January 31 2024 09:49 Cerebrate1 wrote:On January 31 2024 00:14 WombaT wrote:On January 30 2024 22:17 Branch.AUT wrote:On January 30 2024 10:02 WombaT wrote:
[quote]
You can bomb civilians on the off chance you nail an extremist, but you can’t give aid to civilians on the off chance some of it goes to an extremist, or there are extremists in the aid org. You know the guy with the guns can just take ALL of the aid, and give nothing to the general population right? And then give it to his other armed friends. While everyone else has to starve? And then,as bonus they can just point the finger at the bad guys, and say its their fault that everyones starving right now. Works wonders for recruitment too. Take this weapon, kill some baddies, we'll give your family some food. Keep killing, we keep giving food. Humanitarian aid for the general population is awesome and should 100% be encouraged. Aid through the hands of an oppressor, becomes a conflict driving tool. I don't know who actually has their hands on the aid first in palestine. Neither does anyone else here. I trust that the the people who brought you PRISM know tho. I hope they act accotdingly when deciding if aid is to be handed out. You don’t know but you’re postulating a rather specific hypothetical? I doubt Hamas would enjoy the support they do if they were hoarding and dictating where basic humanitarian supplies go. Even with deflecting ultimate blame to Israel, or attempting to there’s still a limit on how far you can push it. Blackmailing people for basic sustenance in order to recruit them seems to cross that line IMO. Even de facto using people as human shields you can justify with the cause and ‘we’re all in this together’, that whole justification falls apart if you start starving the very people you claim to be fighting for. Also it’s not like all of this aid is particularly useful for anything other than its intended purpose either. If it’s basic foodstuffs and perishables I mean you don’t have easy access to markets to sell, even if you did what are you going to do with the proceeds without free access to the outside world? May as well just use them for their intended purpose. Maybe I’m entirely wrong, but I don’t think it makes much political sense for Hamas to engage in such behaviour on any scale. Gazans have been complaining on social media about the high prices of food, tents, etc. Which is odd given that these items are being primarily delivered as donations intended to be free for the recipients. Going rates for donated tents: United Arab Emirates tent: NIS 4000 Qatari tent: NIS 3200 Turkish tent: 2500 NIS Pakistani tent: 2000 NIS I'm not sure who is acting as the deliverer of these goods. It's either Hamas taking the money to buy armaments and enrich themselves, or UNRWA lining their pockets (these prices were from before their funding freeze). So the goods themselves are reaching people, but the people are paying full price for them (or more). Which means the real beneficiaries are the people running things, as they extract value out of the desperate people that they govern. Edit: Although, it's not clear from here what percent reach the market vs are hoarded by Hamas. I'd wager that a lot of canned foods, fuel, water, and things that are useful while hiding in a tunnel under siege are more likely to disappear while things like diapers just get sold. It would certainly track that things useful to hoard in the tunnel networks would end up there first. Or monetary aid ends up in certain pockets and doesn’t circulate more widely.
More perishable foods, or items that aren’t especially useful for any insurgent effort, no sense hoarding.
I’m unsure really how the wider economy would even work in such an environment that’s de facto closed off, albeit Hamas have their ways of moving goods in and out of the territory. Cheers for the response, what do those prices you list roughly correspond to in terms of weekly/monthly income? Not a currency I’m familiar with and as I said I’m struggling to envision how an economy even functions under such duress. I don’t think it’s particularly under dispute that Hamas controls distribution, redirects aid, be it for their cause, or self-aggrandisement to some degree, whatever the actual number is. Maybe it is, I’m only speaking for myself after all my pushback here was more against the ‘Hamas leverage starvation to control the populace’ points folks made which I don’t particularly agree with. Terrorists, if they’re embedded and trying to blend in to their communities, well one they are part of that community by default. And sure you’ll still get total bastard psychopath types but Joe average probably doesn’t want to terrorise their families, friends, acquaintances on a daily basis. Shoot collaborators and oppress by various means absolutely but there crosses a line where it becomes counter-productive I agree with you wombat. Hoarding food and clothes isnt useful for hamas. Having a giant pile of aid materials is pointless. It is not them hoarding. The DISTRIBUTION of the aid materials is where the power comes from. Imagine this scenario. You have two apples. Two people arrive at your table while youre working. Both are hungry. You are hungry too. You eat one apple. Theres two hungry people,and one apple left. Person a says, they will plow your field for this apple. Person B says, I will go shoot evil persons this apple. You get to decide the outcome of the situation. Not by hoarding the apple. But deciding who gets an apple. So when you give person b the apple, person a will see this. When person a gets hungry enough, and they know they get an apple if they offer to take up arms, guess what person a does. The apple is symbolic for humanitarian aid. The you in this example, is whoever controls how this aid is distributed. Controlling who gets what, is the essence of power. Whether you agree with it or not. Starving some people and feeding others is the tool of the oppressor. A tool that has been used since the antique and presumably well before that. When people get hungry enough they will do anything to get food. That sounds bad. This organization would probably lose a lot of power if person A and B didn't need humanitarian aid to get their apples, it's inconvenient that there's a natural disaster in the region that's forcing them to be dependant on humanitarian aid. Devious of them to create the “natural” disaster. Since this was the clear and obvious, predictable reaction to their actions. Which actions specifically? Oct 7th of course.
But before Oct 7th, Palestinians were already relying heavily on humanitarian aid, due to the blockade. I've seen an estimate of 80% of Gaza living on international aid before Oct 7th. If we accept those facts, your theory that they need humanitarian aid because of the bad actions of Hamas on Oct 7th doesn't track.
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On February 01 2024 01:42 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2024 01:32 Nebuchad wrote:On February 01 2024 01:18 JimmiC wrote:On January 31 2024 23:06 Nebuchad wrote:On January 31 2024 22:34 JimmiC wrote:On January 31 2024 20:12 Nebuchad wrote:On January 31 2024 20:08 Branch.AUT wrote:On January 31 2024 12:12 WombaT wrote:On January 31 2024 09:49 Cerebrate1 wrote:On January 31 2024 00:14 WombaT wrote:
[quote]
You don’t know but you’re postulating a rather specific hypothetical?
I doubt Hamas would enjoy the support they do if they were hoarding and dictating where basic humanitarian supplies go. Even with deflecting ultimate blame to Israel, or attempting to there’s still a limit on how far you can push it. Blackmailing people for basic sustenance in order to recruit them seems to cross that line IMO.
Even de facto using people as human shields you can justify with the cause and ‘we’re all in this together’, that whole justification falls apart if you start starving the very people you claim to be fighting for.
Also it’s not like all of this aid is particularly useful for anything other than its intended purpose either. If it’s basic foodstuffs and perishables I mean you don’t have easy access to markets to sell, even if you did what are you going to do with the proceeds without free access to the outside world? May as well just use them for their intended purpose.
Maybe I’m entirely wrong, but I don’t think it makes much political sense for Hamas to engage in such behaviour on any scale. Gazans have been complaining on social media about the high prices of food, tents, etc. Which is odd given that these items are being primarily delivered as donations intended to be free for the recipients. Going rates for donated tents: United Arab Emirates tent: NIS 4000 Qatari tent: NIS 3200 Turkish tent: 2500 NIS Pakistani tent: 2000 NIS I'm not sure who is acting as the deliverer of these goods. It's either Hamas taking the money to buy armaments and enrich themselves, or UNRWA lining their pockets (these prices were from before their funding freeze). So the goods themselves are reaching people, but the people are paying full price for them (or more). Which means the real beneficiaries are the people running things, as they extract value out of the desperate people that they govern. Edit: Although, it's not clear from here what percent reach the market vs are hoarded by Hamas. I'd wager that a lot of canned foods, fuel, water, and things that are useful while hiding in a tunnel under siege are more likely to disappear while things like diapers just get sold. It would certainly track that things useful to hoard in the tunnel networks would end up there first. Or monetary aid ends up in certain pockets and doesn’t circulate more widely.
More perishable foods, or items that aren’t especially useful for any insurgent effort, no sense hoarding.
I’m unsure really how the wider economy would even work in such an environment that’s de facto closed off, albeit Hamas have their ways of moving goods in and out of the territory. Cheers for the response, what do those prices you list roughly correspond to in terms of weekly/monthly income? Not a currency I’m familiar with and as I said I’m struggling to envision how an economy even functions under such duress. I don’t think it’s particularly under dispute that Hamas controls distribution, redirects aid, be it for their cause, or self-aggrandisement to some degree, whatever the actual number is. Maybe it is, I’m only speaking for myself after all my pushback here was more against the ‘Hamas leverage starvation to control the populace’ points folks made which I don’t particularly agree with. Terrorists, if they’re embedded and trying to blend in to their communities, well one they are part of that community by default. And sure you’ll still get total bastard psychopath types but Joe average probably doesn’t want to terrorise their families, friends, acquaintances on a daily basis. Shoot collaborators and oppress by various means absolutely but there crosses a line where it becomes counter-productive I agree with you wombat. Hoarding food and clothes isnt useful for hamas. Having a giant pile of aid materials is pointless. It is not them hoarding. The DISTRIBUTION of the aid materials is where the power comes from. Imagine this scenario. You have two apples. Two people arrive at your table while youre working. Both are hungry. You are hungry too. You eat one apple. Theres two hungry people,and one apple left. Person a says, they will plow your field for this apple. Person B says, I will go shoot evil persons this apple. You get to decide the outcome of the situation. Not by hoarding the apple. But deciding who gets an apple. So when you give person b the apple, person a will see this. When person a gets hungry enough, and they know they get an apple if they offer to take up arms, guess what person a does. The apple is symbolic for humanitarian aid. The you in this example, is whoever controls how this aid is distributed. Controlling who gets what, is the essence of power. Whether you agree with it or not. Starving some people and feeding others is the tool of the oppressor. A tool that has been used since the antique and presumably well before that. When people get hungry enough they will do anything to get food. That sounds bad. This organization would probably lose a lot of power if person A and B didn't need humanitarian aid to get their apples, it's inconvenient that there's a natural disaster in the region that's forcing them to be dependant on humanitarian aid. Devious of them to create the “natural” disaster. Since this was the clear and obvious, predictable reaction to their actions. Which actions specifically? Oct 7th of course. But before Oct 7th, Palestinians were already relying heavily on humanitarian aid, due to the blockade. I've seen an estimate of 80% of Gaza living on international aid before Oct 7th. If we accept those facts, your theory that they need humanitarian aid because of the bad actions of Hamas on Oct 7th doesn't track. I thought it was your theory. But I guess it would track that they could make more after, you know reduce supply incrase demand. I would tell you my theory later. I'm still wondering how you and the others think Oct 7th helps the freedom fighters accomplish their goal.
I don't know what part of this post is "my theory", I haven't provided a theory, just demonstrated that the need for humanitarian aid couldn't have been a response to Oct 7th.
Oct 7th doesn't help Palestinians obviously. Despite your clear wish to be talking to defenders of Hamas because it would suit your black and white view of the world, in this thread we're all very clear on their status as a terrorist organization. But I like to state it again from time to time.
I can't wait to hear your theory, it must be interesting. Most people who have a theory would have written that theory in the first place instead of writing "Oct 7th of course", but I know that you're not lying to me and you do have a theory, who would lie like this.
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On February 01 2024 02:09 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On February 01 2024 01:53 Nebuchad wrote:On February 01 2024 01:42 JimmiC wrote:On February 01 2024 01:32 Nebuchad wrote:On February 01 2024 01:18 JimmiC wrote:On January 31 2024 23:06 Nebuchad wrote:On January 31 2024 22:34 JimmiC wrote:On January 31 2024 20:12 Nebuchad wrote:On January 31 2024 20:08 Branch.AUT wrote:On January 31 2024 12:12 WombaT wrote:
[quote]
It would certainly track that things useful to hoard in the tunnel networks would end up there first. Or monetary aid ends up in certain pockets and doesn’t circulate more widely.
More perishable foods, or items that aren’t especially useful for any insurgent effort, no sense hoarding.
I’m unsure really how the wider economy would even work in such an environment that’s de facto closed off, albeit Hamas have their ways of moving goods in and out of the territory.
Cheers for the response, what do those prices you list roughly correspond to in terms of weekly/monthly income? Not a currency I’m familiar with and as I said I’m struggling to envision how an economy even functions under such duress.
I don’t think it’s particularly under dispute that Hamas controls distribution, redirects aid, be it for their cause, or self-aggrandisement to some degree, whatever the actual number is. Maybe it is, I’m only speaking for myself after all my pushback here was more against the ‘Hamas leverage starvation to control the populace’ points folks made which I don’t particularly agree with.
Terrorists, if they’re embedded and trying to blend in to their communities, well one they are part of that community by default. And sure you’ll still get total bastard psychopath types but Joe average probably doesn’t want to terrorise their families, friends, acquaintances on a daily basis.
Shoot collaborators and oppress by various means absolutely but there crosses a line where it becomes counter-productive
I agree with you wombat. Hoarding food and clothes isnt useful for hamas. Having a giant pile of aid materials is pointless. It is not them hoarding. The DISTRIBUTION of the aid materials is where the power comes from. Imagine this scenario. You have two apples. Two people arrive at your table while youre working. Both are hungry. You are hungry too. You eat one apple. Theres two hungry people,and one apple left. Person a says, they will plow your field for this apple. Person B says, I will go shoot evil persons this apple. You get to decide the outcome of the situation. Not by hoarding the apple. But deciding who gets an apple. So when you give person b the apple, person a will see this. When person a gets hungry enough, and they know they get an apple if they offer to take up arms, guess what person a does. The apple is symbolic for humanitarian aid. The you in this example, is whoever controls how this aid is distributed. Controlling who gets what, is the essence of power. Whether you agree with it or not. Starving some people and feeding others is the tool of the oppressor. A tool that has been used since the antique and presumably well before that. When people get hungry enough they will do anything to get food. That sounds bad. This organization would probably lose a lot of power if person A and B didn't need humanitarian aid to get their apples, it's inconvenient that there's a natural disaster in the region that's forcing them to be dependant on humanitarian aid. Devious of them to create the “natural” disaster. Since this was the clear and obvious, predictable reaction to their actions. Which actions specifically? Oct 7th of course. But before Oct 7th, Palestinians were already relying heavily on humanitarian aid, due to the blockade. I've seen an estimate of 80% of Gaza living on international aid before Oct 7th. If we accept those facts, your theory that they need humanitarian aid because of the bad actions of Hamas on Oct 7th doesn't track. I thought it was your theory. But I guess it would track that they could make more after, you know reduce supply incrase demand. I would tell you my theory later. I'm still wondering how you and the others think Oct 7th helps the freedom fighters accomplish their goal. I don't know what part of this post is "my theory", I haven't provided a theory, just demonstrated that the need for humanitarian aid couldn't have been a response to Oct 7th. Oct 7th doesn't help Palestinians obviously. Despite your clear wish to be talking to defenders of Hamas because it would suit your black and white view of the world, in this thread we're all very clear on their status as a terrorist organization. But I like to state it again from time to time. I can't wait to hear your theory, it must be interesting. Most people who have a theory would have written that theory in the first place instead of writing "Oct 7th of course", but I know that you're not lying to me and you do have a theory, who would lie like this. I'm not sure what most of your post is talking about, maybe some strawman. And dude your the guy that said Hamas was right not me, and you have defended Hamas also stating you are fine with me (which I won't) consider this Israel vs Palestine not IDF vs Hamas, and clearly you are cheering for Hamas. So I get you won't say it directly but its pretty clear by now. I obviously do not think its black and white. I think its black and grey. To quote Drone again, either your a idiot or blatantly disingenuous to keep bringing it up. Or your projecting so hard your opinion in reverse because it is easier for you? You tell me. I could state it again and it would not matter, it is actually becoming pretty funny to watch you guys make up what my take is when I clearly write it multiple times. Me trying to guess yours is also entertaining because you won't write it.
If you're not sure what most of the post is talking about I urge you to read the last few posts again, it will become clear to you as there is a very clear link between all of the posts. I don't think you really have an issue following this.
If you recall I said that Hamas was right about something specific: "The degree to which we're talking more about the oppression of Palestinians now that Israel is killing them in the tens of thousands is hard to overstate. That's a blight on us, in my opinion. We should have done more before this." This is an obvious fact about reality. I personally like to believe things that are obviously true, I get that not everyone feels this need.
The rest appears to be you deciding what I believe based on nothing, then complaining that others misrepresent you when they read the things you write. Doesn't seem very interesting so I'll leave it at that.
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EPT
