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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. |
On June 24 2020 22:14 True_Spike wrote:
I'm shocked that for so many people a simple accusation is enough to warrant action against the accused, with no proof whatsoever.
Some of these stories are indeed troubling and, if true, must have made the person in question very uncomfortable; no person should conduct himself or herself this way; At the same time, from my perspective, the only sensible course of action when something of this nature happens to you is to go to the police and take actual action, preferably the moment it happened.
That, however, requires proof, time and effort on the part of the accuser, on top of potential legal repercussions if the accusations turn out to be fabricated. A post on social media does not.
I think the importance of educating (young) women on how to react in such situations (and afterwards) should be the key takeaway here, not the silly idea that women never lie about sexual harassment. It's not the same as not believing them - for the time being I believe every single person that came forward, but at the same time I acknowledge it might change based on the response of the accused or, preferably, a proper legal process.
I understand it must be hard for victims of sexual abuse to come forward for a multitude of reasons (expecially actual serious, life-changing and super damaging sexual abuse cases, not a guy being a complete fucking inappropriate moron and sending a dick pick), but perpetuating the idea that a person's word alone is enough to downright socially convict someone is atrocious.
Even if "most cases end up being true", you can't just assume all of them are, that's not how the world works. Would you sentence a man to die for a crime he was accused of based on testimony alone? In a normal country that simply cannot happen and for good reason. While death is not in question here, for many people their entire livelihoods are at stake here.
I couldn't have said it better myself. This is a very strong post and we should all be honest about this. We don't wanna live in a middle-aged witch hunting culture where the mobs do justice. Weve a very important court system which is one of the best things the modern world has created.
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On June 24 2020 22:20 Rainmansc wrote:
So BLM is over and we go over on public execution again? Im very sad to hear those things IF they are true but these things should not be a public debate but rather a thing that the police should sort out. Its very easy to destroys somebodies innocent life this way and this should never be the way we should be living together.
Alright alright alright alright alright
Please tell me how the police are going to prosecute some of these incidents, I'm all fucking ears. Are the Dutch police going to solve every last one? maybe the Souith Carolina patrol department?
Also, the police are shit at this pretty much everywhere, I know plenty of women who have tried and failed.
Fuck, Jump_ raped someone in 2017 and he still hasn't been prosecuted!
On June 24 2020 22:14 True_Spike wrote:
I understand it must be hard for victims of sexual abuse to come forward for a multitude of reasons (expecially actual serious, life-changing and super damaging sexual abuse cases, not a guy being a complete fucking inappropriate moron and sending a dick pick), but perpetuating the idea that a person's word alone is enough to downright socially convict someone is atrocious.
Brb going to send you 10k pictures of my arsehole with poop coming out of it.
bUt iTs nOt rEaLlY HaRaSsMeNt
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This is a long read, anyone have a summary? (at work, at the moment)
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Lots of people having trouble with the concept of testimony and how it is even admissible in court.
No, "I know him to be a nice guy" is not a counter-argument to "I saw him do X", this is not a poll.
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User was warned for this post
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On June 24 2020 22:27 Kerotan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 22:20 Rainmansc wrote:
So BLM is over and we go over on public execution again? Im very sad to hear those things IF they are true but these things should not be a public debate but rather a thing that the police should sort out. Its very easy to destroys somebodies innocent life this way and this should never be the way we should be living together. Alright alright alright alright alright Please tell me how the police are going to prosecute some of these incidents, I'm all fucking ears. Are the Dutch police going to solve every last one? maybe the Souith Carolina patrol department? Also, the police are shit at this pretty much everywhere, I know plenty of women who have tried and failed. Fuck, Jump_ raped someone in 2017 and he still hasn't been prosecuted! Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 22:14 True_Spike wrote:
I'm shocked that for so many people a simple accusation is enough to warrant action against the accused, with no proof whatsoever.
Some of these stories are indeed troubling and, if true, must have made the person in question very uncomfortable; no person should conduct himself or herself this way; At the same time, from my perspective, the only sensible course of action when something of this nature happens to you is to go to the police and take actual action, preferably the moment it happened.
That, however, requires proof, time and effort on the part of the accuser, on top of potential legal repercussions if the accusations turn out to be fabricated. A post on social media does not.
I think the importance of educating (young) women on how to react in such situations (and afterwards) should be the key takeaway here, not the silly idea that women never lie about sexual harassment. It's not the same as not believing them - for the time being I believe every single person that came forward, but at the same time I acknowledge it might change based on the response of the accused or, preferably, a proper legal process.
I understand it must be hard for victims of sexual abuse to come forward for a multitude of reasons (expecially actual serious, life-changing and super damaging sexual abuse cases, not a guy being a complete fucking inappropriate moron and sending a dick pick), but perpetuating the idea that a person's word alone is enough to downright socially convict someone is atrocious.
Even if "most cases end up being true", you can't just assume all of them are, that's not how the world works. Would you sentence a man to die for a crime he was accused of based on testimony alone? In a normal country that simply cannot happen and for good reason. While death is not in question here, for many people their entire livelihoods are at stake here.
You rather believe anybody regardless if its true or not and the person that could be convicted innocent is the cost of this amazing system? How can you think this way. How can you be so naive to think that nobody could make up a story for self benefit? Im not saying this has happened but it COULD be. That's the whole point of it...
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On June 24 2020 22:20 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 22:15 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 24 2020 22:05 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:
But your are jumping straight Rapid is guilty.Did u even read the tweets? Cuz one girl is saying it happened to her in offline event.then she casted with him years later.she said with google skills u can find pictures etc.Then do u have couple of girls saying the exact same thing happened to them via DMs but hey sorry not proof.isnt that really convienent? Yes I've read the multiple allegations made by multiple women over the years, against Rapid. They corroborate his inappropriate behavior. As for your insistence on specifically needing to see text, or about the other minor topics we've covered (e.g., attention-seeking behavior), I think EsportsJohn's comment answers them very well. There are ever-shifting goalposts when it comes to burden of proof, people will continue to make excuses if they really want to, and the people coming forward are merely hoping that they themselves don't get pitchforked for speaking out. On June 24 2020 22:11 linestein wrote:[LEGALITY]The Presumption of InnocenceThe presumption of innocence is a tenet of the justice system in the best countries around the world. It is important to remember that these identities are not all established. Kaitlyn, for instance, is a well-established identity. But not each identity in this case is, in fact, well-established. ..."In a criminal trial." Sorry my ignorance but u are saying over th years? I didnt know this.do u mind giving some links? I HONESTLY didnt know about it.and i thought it all came with the recent twitch movement.
He's been outed for being unprofessional since at least 2014 ( https://web.archive.org/web/20140408050135/http://www.esportsheaven.com/articles/view/5189 ) although that specific example is more about him being a pain in the neck, rather than explicitly sexual.
An account back in 2015 that's a sexual situation ( https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sr9kmn )
2018 was when Deity's sexual situation happened ( https://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sr9kev )
Another corroborative account about inappropriate conduct (not sure what the dates are) ( https://twitter.com/theresagaffney/status/1275471824839684096?ref_src=twsrc^tfw|twcamp^tweetembed&ref_url=https://tl.net/forum/starcraft-2/560609-sexual-harassment-abuse-in-starcraft-2 )
I'm not saying Rapid should go to jail, but it's pretty clear, based on his inappropriate non-sexual and sexual behavior towards certain people (especially women), that he shouldn't be a part of the community.
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Canada8987 Posts
On June 24 2020 22:28 Metallica911 wrote:
This is a long read, anyone have a summary? (at work, at the moment)
Accusation of various kind of sexual misconduct against some early day SC2 korean coach, Rapid as well as ex "State of the game" JP. (Altought I'm not sure what is the accusation in that last one, there's some talk of an NDA but IDK if the accusation are at the end of the day against him or someone else).
An a couple more story of sexual misconduit against women in the scene that dosen't name any culprit
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On June 24 2020 22:27 Rainmansc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 22:14 True_Spike wrote:
I'm shocked that for so many people a simple accusation is enough to warrant action against the accused, with no proof whatsoever.
Some of these stories are indeed troubling and, if true, must have made the person in question very uncomfortable; no person should conduct himself or herself this way; At the same time, from my perspective, the only sensible course of action when something of this nature happens to you is to go to the police and take actual action, preferably the moment it happened.
That, however, requires proof, time and effort on the part of the accuser, on top of potential legal repercussions if the accusations turn out to be fabricated. A post on social media does not.
I think the importance of educating (young) women on how to react in such situations (and afterwards) should be the key takeaway here, not the silly idea that women never lie about sexual harassment. It's not the same as not believing them - for the time being I believe every single person that came forward, but at the same time I acknowledge it might change based on the response of the accused or, preferably, a proper legal process.
I understand it must be hard for victims of sexual abuse to come forward for a multitude of reasons (expecially actual serious, life-changing and super damaging sexual abuse cases, not a guy being a complete fucking inappropriate moron and sending a dick pick), but perpetuating the idea that a person's word alone is enough to downright socially convict someone is atrocious.
Even if "most cases end up being true", you can't just assume all of them are, that's not how the world works. Would you sentence a man to die for a crime he was accused of based on testimony alone? In a normal country that simply cannot happen and for good reason. While death is not in question here, for many people their entire livelihoods are at stake here.
I couldn't have said it better myself. This is a very strong post and we should all be honest about this. We don't wanna live in a middle-aged witch hunting culture where the mobs do justice. Weve a very important court system which is one of the best things the modern world has created.
Frankly if we started setting more of the accused on fire in the public square or tying them to rocks and tossing them in bodies of water to see if they float there'd probably be a lot less people stumbling into "accidentally" getting their 'lives ruined' for sexual misconduct.
That's to say I too oppose witch hunting culture, but witch hunting was (not so ironically) men murdering women for basically speaking up and defending themselves against a toxic male dominated society. So I'd argue you're a little mixed up on which side of the "witch hunt culture" debate you're supporting.
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Of course, if the allegations are false, the people being accused could always take the accuser to court.
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This thread was going relatively well but has now gone to utter shit.
Nobody is convicting anyone. Legal rules aren't relevant outside a court. And if you're so concerned about accusing people of crimes then be aware that slander and libel are crimes almost everywhere. Where is your "innocent until proven guilty" mindset regarding the idea that people are committing the crimes of slander and libel? It's nowhere, because this isn't about innocent until proven guilty at all. Because that's the thing: when someone accuses another person of rape or etc., then almost always one of them has committed a crime. If the story is true then it's sexual abuse in some way. If the story is false then it is slander or libel. Those who believe so much in the justice system's ability to get to the truth - why do you think generally nobody is charged, neither accuser nor accused? And why is it you think the default position is that someone has committed the crime of slander/libel rather than abuse/harassment?
The justice system of many countries is pretty good for deciding whether people should be put in jail or not. That's as it should be. Nobody has been put in jail over these claims that I'm aware of, so that's that concern dealt with. None of us are on a jury over any cases here. This does not mean that everyone who doesn't possess proof beyond reasonable doubt must remain silent. We can and should allow people to speak. At the same time, yes, we should not destroy someone's life over a single accusation where it's simple "he said she said". But can you point to that happening to anyone in the scene right now? No, of course you can't. And if you see it, then call it out. Certainly, legally people have a right to innocence until proven guilty. But people also have a right to speak up about their experiences. You don't have to believe them - feel free to reserve judgement and work from an assumption of both accuser and accused being innocent of any crime. But you do have to allow them space to speak, and for others to come forward.
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On June 24 2020 22:38 FuzzyJAM wrote:
This thread was going relatively well but has now gone to utter shit.
Nobody is convicting anyone. Legal rules aren't relevant outside a court. And if you're so concerned about accusing people of crimes then be aware that slander and libel are crimes almost everywhere. Where is your "innocent until proven guilty" mindset regarding the idea that people are committing the crimes of slander and libel? It's nowhere, because this isn't about innocent until proven guilty at all. Because that's the thing: when someone accuses another person of rape or etc., then almost always one of them has committed a crime. If the story is true then it's sexual abuse in some way. If the story is false then it is slander or libel. Those who believe so much in the justice system's ability to get to the truth - why do you think generally nobody is charged, neither accuser nor accused? And why is it you think the default position is that someone has committed the crime of slander/libel rather than abuse/harassment?
The justice system of many countries is pretty good for deciding whether people should be put in jail or not. That's as it should be. Nobody has been put in jail over these claims that I'm aware of, so that's that concern dealt with. None of us are on a jury over any cases here. This does not mean that everyone who doesn't possess proof beyond reasonable doubt must remain silent. We can and should allow people to speak. At the same time, yes, we should not destroy someone's life over a single accusation where it's simple "he said she said". But can you point to that happening to anyone in the scene right now? No, of course you can't. And if you see it, then call it out. Certainly, legally people have a right to innocence until proven guilty. But people also have a right to speak up about their experiences. You don't have to believe them - feel free to reserve judgement and work from an assumption of both accuser and accused being innocent of any crime. But you do have to allow them space to speak, and for others to come forward.
Very well said.
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On June 24 2020 22:38 FuzzyJAM wrote:
This thread was going relatively well but has now gone to utter shit.
Nobody is convicting anyone. Legal rules aren't relevant outside a court. And if you're so concerned about accusing people of crimes then be aware that slander and libel are crimes almost everywhere. Where is your "innocent until proven guilty" mindset regarding the idea that people are committing the crimes of slander and libel? It's nowhere, because this isn't about innocent until proven guilty at all. Because that's the thing: when someone accuses another person of rape or etc., then almost always one of them has committed a crime. If the story is true then it's sexual abuse in some way. If the story is false then it is slander or libel. Those who believe so much in the justice system's ability to get to the truth - why do you think generally nobody is charged, neither accuser nor accused? And why is it you think the default position is that someone has committed the crime of slander/libel rather than abuse/harassment?
The justice system of many countries is pretty good for deciding whether people should be put in jail or not. That's as it should be. Nobody has been put in jail over these claims that I'm aware of, so that's that concern dealt with. None of us are on a jury over any cases here. This does not mean that everyone who doesn't possess proof beyond reasonable doubt must remain silent. We can and should allow people to speak. At the same time, yes, we should not destroy someone's life over a single accusation where it's simple "he said she said". But can you point to that happening to anyone in the scene right now? No, of course you can't. And if you see it, then call it out. Certainly, legally people have a right to innocence until proven guilty. But people also have a right to speak up about their experiences. You don't have to believe them - feel free to reserve judgement and work from an assumption of both accuser and accused being innocent of any crime. But you do have to allow them space to speak, and for others to come forward.
I agree with you on the majority you say, but to say that nobody is going to jail is a little short visioned. You could be outside of jail but your life is completely destroyed because of a false accusation. Its such a double edged sword.
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On June 24 2020 22:38 FuzzyJAM wrote:
This thread was going relatively well but has now gone to utter shit.
Nobody is convicting anyone. Legal rules aren't relevant outside a court. And if you're so concerned about accusing people of crimes then be aware that slander and libel are crimes almost everywhere. Where is your "innocent until proven guilty" mindset regarding the idea that people are committing the crimes of slander and libel? It's nowhere, because this isn't about innocent until proven guilty at all. Because that's the thing: when someone accuses another person of rape or etc., then almost always one of them has committed a crime. If the story is true then it's sexual abuse in some way. If the story is false then it is slander or libel. Those who believe so much in the justice system's ability to get to the truth - why do you think generally nobody is charged, neither accuser nor accused? And why is it you think the default position is that someone has committed the crime of slander/libel rather than abuse/harassment?
The justice system of many countries is pretty good for deciding whether people should be put in jail or not. That's as it should be. Nobody has been put in jail over these claims that I'm aware of, so that's that concern dealt with. None of us are on a jury over any cases here. This does not mean that everyone who doesn't possess proof beyond reasonable doubt must remain silent. We can and should allow people to speak. At the same time, yes, we should not destroy someone's life over a single accusation where it's simple "he said she said". But can you point to that happening to anyone in the scene right now? No, of course you can't. And if you see it, then call it out. Certainly, legally people have a right to innocence until proven guilty. But people also have a right to speak up about their experiences. You don't have to believe them - feel free to reserve judgement and work from an assumption of both accuser and accused being innocent of any crime. But you do have to allow them space to speak, and for others to come forward.
Nicely said, 100% agree
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On June 24 2020 22:38 FuzzyJAM wrote:
If the story is true then it's sexual abuse in some way. If the story is false then it is slander or libel.
Not at all, most of the times the story is neither proven wrong nor proven false. Not sure if this is what you meant tho. What I mean is that an accusation that has not been proven true does not automatically means it has been proved false.
EDIT :ok ignore that, that exactly what you said
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I'd be interested to hear from people within the pro gaming scene (Team Liquid the team I'm looking at you) about what experiences they have in gaming.
Who would you report sexual harassment to? Have you known anyone who has reported this stuff within the industry, and how did it turn out? Are there things that should be improved immediately in terms of support? Are there people in the industry that everyone knows are a problem but nothing can be done to remove them (not asking for names but this stuff is a good indicator of how 'healthy' the reporting/support system is)?
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Ultimately this is another humanity vs me discussion. Starting to believe a lot of political debates contain that distinction.
It's pretty obvious that victims speaking out is better for humanity in general than a culture of sweeping all of the accusations under the rug to maintain appearances, even if it entails a few false accusations sometimes. Sexual harassment is, to use a technical term, bad.
But in this case if we look at it from the "I" perspective rather than the human perspective, the answer isn't as clear. As a gamer, male, kind of socially awkward, I am much more likely to be accused of sexual harassment than I am to be at the receiving end of it. Both are rarely going to happen, but one is like 2-10% (depending on how much I hate the womenz) and the other is like 0,1%. So because I don't have a lot of empathy, it's much easier for me to put myself in the place of the accuser than in the place of the victim, and I'm much more concerned with the former being treated fairly than the latter.
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On June 24 2020 22:33 Rainmansc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2020 22:27 Kerotan wrote:On June 24 2020 22:20 Rainmansc wrote:
So BLM is over and we go over on public execution again? Im very sad to hear those things IF they are true but these things should not be a public debate but rather a thing that the police should sort out. Its very easy to destroys somebodies innocent life this way and this should never be the way we should be living together. Alright alright alright alright alright Please tell me how the police are going to prosecute some of these incidents, I'm all fucking ears. Are the Dutch police going to solve every last one? maybe the Souith Carolina patrol department? Also, the police are shit at this pretty much everywhere, I know plenty of women who have tried and failed. Fuck, Jump_ raped someone in 2017 and he still hasn't been prosecuted! On June 24 2020 22:14 True_Spike wrote:
I'm shocked that for so many people a simple accusation is enough to warrant action against the accused, with no proof whatsoever.
Some of these stories are indeed troubling and, if true, must have made the person in question very uncomfortable; no person should conduct himself or herself this way; At the same time, from my perspective, the only sensible course of action when something of this nature happens to you is to go to the police and take actual action, preferably the moment it happened.
That, however, requires proof, time and effort on the part of the accuser, on top of potential legal repercussions if the accusations turn out to be fabricated. A post on social media does not.
I think the importance of educating (young) women on how to react in such situations (and afterwards) should be the key takeaway here, not the silly idea that women never lie about sexual harassment. It's not the same as not believing them - for the time being I believe every single person that came forward, but at the same time I acknowledge it might change based on the response of the accused or, preferably, a proper legal process.
I understand it must be hard for victims of sexual abuse to come forward for a multitude of reasons (expecially actual serious, life-changing and super damaging sexual abuse cases, not a guy being a complete fucking inappropriate moron and sending a dick pick), but perpetuating the idea that a person's word alone is enough to downright socially convict someone is atrocious.
Even if "most cases end up being true", you can't just assume all of them are, that's not how the world works. Would you sentence a man to die for a crime he was accused of based on testimony alone? In a normal country that simply cannot happen and for good reason. While death is not in question here, for many people their entire livelihoods are at stake here.
You rather believe anybody regardless if its true or not and the person that could be convicted innocent is the cost of this amazing system? How can you think this way. How can you be so naive to think that nobody could make up a story for self benefit? Im not saying this has happened but it COULD be. That's the whole point of it...
I'm not just believing anybody, what I am saying is that you propose a system that doesn't fucking work. People wouldn't have to speak out like this if the system actually fucking worked. I've been to the police many times and nothing happened.
You have me confused for someone who advocates for the court of public opinion; I'm pointing out that the court of public opinion is usually the only recourse victims have.
On June 24 2020 22:38 FuzzyJAM wrote:
This thread was going relatively well but has now gone to utter shit.
Nobody is convicting anyone. Legal rules aren't relevant outside a court. And if you're so concerned about accusing people of crimes then be aware that slander and libel are crimes almost everywhere. Where is your "innocent until proven guilty" mindset regarding the idea that people are committing the crimes of slander and libel? It's nowhere, because this isn't about innocent until proven guilty at all. Because that's the thing: when someone accuses another person of rape or etc., then almost always one of them has committed a crime. If the story is true then it's sexual abuse in some way. If the story is false then it is slander or libel. Those who believe so much in the justice system's ability to get to the truth - why do you think generally nobody is charged, neither accuser nor accused? And why is it you think the default position is that someone has committed the crime of slander/libel rather than abuse/harassment?
The justice system of many countries is pretty good for deciding whether people should be put in jail or not. That's as it should be. Nobody has been put in jail over these claims that I'm aware of, so that's that concern dealt with. None of us are on a jury over any cases here. This does not mean that everyone who doesn't possess proof beyond reasonable doubt must remain silent. We can and should allow people to speak. At the same time, yes, we should not destroy someone's life over a single accusation where it's simple "he said she said". But can you point to that happening to anyone in the scene right now? No, of course you can't. And if you see it, then call it out. Certainly, legally people have a right to innocence until proven guilty. But people also have a right to speak up about their experiences. You don't have to believe them - feel free to reserve judgement and work from an assumption of both accuser and accused being innocent of any crime. But you do have to allow them space to speak, and for others to come forward.
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On June 24 2020 22:46 Nebuchad wrote:
Ultimately this is another humanity vs me discussion. Starting to believe a lot of political debates contain that distinction.
It's pretty obvious that victims speaking out is better for humanity in general than a culture of sweeping all of the accusations under the rug to maintain appearances, even if it entails a few false accusations sometimes. Sexual harassment is, to use a technical term, bad.
But in this case if we look at it from the "I" perspective rather than the human perspective, the answer isn't as clear. As a gamer, male, kind of socially awkward, I am much more likely to be accused of sexual harassment than I am to be at the receiving end of it. Both are rarely going to happen, but one is like 2-10% (depending on how much I hate the womenz) and the other is like 0,1%. So because I don't have a lot of empathy, it's much easier for me to put myself in the place of the accuser than in the place of the victim, and I'm much more concerned with the former being treated fairly than the latter.
This is the feeling i get from the discussion. Its not misogynistic in intent but it is in its effect.
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DarkPlasmaBall thanks for the link.Now i can see why you are so straight with the situation.Take in mind my experience with Rapid always been the guy that helps the Broodwar scene and when i was in Korea he was extremely helpful to me.And never showed any weirdness honestly.So i admit i started my post with a deny.
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EPT
