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On April 12 2018 06:33 fronkschnonk wrote:I made a chart listing who how often got voted for which place. It's quite interesting. I excluded posts that oviously didn't consider skill as a factor at all (only/mostly foreigner posts, only/mosty lowlevel koreans). Ranking by how often the players got into the list at all:+ Show Spoiler +Who ranks best at each placement? I will list the first few interesting ones:+ Show Spoiler +1.  Mvp (22), INnoVation (19),  Life (15),  sOs / ByuN (3), Rogue (2), Maru / Zest / NesTea / Polt / boxer / Cure (1) 2. INnoVation (18), Mvp (13), Life / soO (11), MC (4) 3. Life (16), Mvp (15), INnoVation (13), soO (6), sOs (5), TaeJa (3) 4. soO / sOs (9), INnoVation / TaeJa / Zest (7), MC (5), Life / Maru (4) 5. sOs (11), soO (9), TaeJa / Zest (6), MC / Maru (5) 6. sOs (17!), MC (9), soO / Maru (6), Zest / Rogue (4) 7. Dark (10), TaeJa (7), Maru / Polt (5), MC / soO / Zest (4) 8. TaeJa / Maru / Zest (7), MC / Rain (6), soO (5) 9. TaeJa (6), Maru / MC / Polt / Partin / NesTea (5) 10. Zest (6), TaeJa / NesTea / Dark (5), Maru / Polt / Rain / MMA / soO (4) The first 4 pages featured a neck-and-neck race between INnoVation and Life for First place (with Inno being mostly in the lead) but then nostalgists stepped in and Mvp passed them while Life got left somewhat behind (perhaps due to the upcoming discussion about him?). As assumed Life's scandal did not only cost him many points but also made him lack behind Inno and Mvp for 1st and 2nd place because of being excluded from the list relatively often. The race seems a bit closer if you multiply the average points of each player with Inno's 63 appearances (I took the players of the original ranking for this list): + Show Spoiler +1. Inno (8,5079365079*63=536) 2. Mvp (8,4166666667*63=530,25) 3. Life (8,1320754717*63=512,320754717) 4. soO (5,9464285714*63=374,625) 5. sOs (5,9433962264*63=374,4339622642) 6. MC (4,975*63=313,425) 7. TaeJa (4,5217391304*63=284,8695652174) 8. Maru (4,475*63=281,925) 9. Zest (4,3157894737*63=271,8947368421) 10. NesTea (4,2173913043*63=265,6956521739) are the only players who got voted for for every rank. soO and TaeJa also got votes for every rank - with an exception: voters consensually thought that they can't be ranked higher than 2nd place. TaeJa and Maru seem to be the most controversial players, getting votes very spread out over all ranks. Considering Maru's recent GSL championship he now probably wouldn't be in this situation anymore. With 17 votes sOs is kind of weirdly agreed on to be 6th place. At least he is kind of in the middle with also quite many votes vor 4th (9) and 5th (11) Considering only the number of getting ranked top10 there could be made a cut after 9th place for the GOAT-discussion. NesTea got ranked only 23 times while Zest got ranked 38 times. That's a difference of 15 times. The biggest difference within the top9 is 7.
Thank you for elaborating on the ranking!
You show quite clearly that INnoVation is the community's favourite.
sOs stays true to his reputation of being able to get any place.
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One essential thing people aren't considering is that during Mvp's era sc2 was peaking, everyone was trying hard, the game was huge and viewer numbers were very high with lots of tournaments, so the argument that it wasn't as competitive back then because the game was young gets mostly nullified, if anything it was harder because of how popular the game was, the harsh truth is that almost nobody gives a shit for years now.
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Lol Nestea 10??? Ehm .... okay
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On May 01 2018 00:34 IshinShishi wrote:
One essential thing people aren't considering is that during Mvp's era sc2 was peaking, everyone was trying hard, the game was huge and viewer numbers were very high with lots of tournaments, so the argument that it wasn't as competitive back then because the game was young gets mostly nullified, if anything it was harder because of how popular the game was, the harsh truth is that almost nobody gives a shit for years now.
Pretty much- people who started watching after 2012 don't really understand that a GSL today is about half or a third of a GSL from 2011- if you slipped up you had to fight through Code A to get back into Code S, and qualifying in the first place meant battling through a big single elimination bracket, not having two shots at an 6-7 person double elimination bracket, which is what happens now (and puts you straight in Code S).
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Yes pre kespa era = hardest to win a gsl rofl 
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On May 01 2018 00:34 IshinShishi wrote:
One essential thing people aren't considering is that during Mvp's era sc2 was peaking, everyone was trying hard, the game was huge and viewer numbers were very high with lots of tournaments, so the argument that it wasn't as competitive back then because the game was young gets mostly nullified, if anything it was harder because of how popular the game was, the harsh truth is that almost nobody gives a shit for years now.
the argument isn't that the scene wasn't as competitive because the game was young.
The scene was less competitive because KeSPA didn't switch yet. With the Kespa switch a wave of extremely talented and hardworking players arrived in the scene and the professionalism increased significantly.
There's a reason most of the esf players couldn't compete anymore at the highest level with the exceptions being Maru, PartinG and Life.
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Innovation's number 1? That's Bogus!
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Thinking about the traditional "most dominant of his (small) era"
1.MVP
2.LIFE
3.NESTEA
4.MC
5. Don't care.
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On May 01 2018 03:43 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2018 00:34 IshinShishi wrote:
One essential thing people aren't considering is that during Mvp's era sc2 was peaking, everyone was trying hard, the game was huge and viewer numbers were very high with lots of tournaments, so the argument that it wasn't as competitive back then because the game was young gets mostly nullified, if anything it was harder because of how popular the game was, the harsh truth is that almost nobody gives a shit for years now. the argument isn't that the scene wasn't as competitive because the game was young. The scene was less competitive because KeSPA didn't switch yet. With the Kespa switch a wave of extremely talented and hardworking players arrived in the scene and the professionalism increased significantly. There's a reason most of the esf players couldn't compete anymore at the highest level with the exceptions being Maru, PartinG and Life.
I followed sc2 during the switch, it was underwhelming to say the least. The elephant in the room turned out to be at most a cow.
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On May 01 2018 07:21 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2018 03:43 Charoisaur wrote:On May 01 2018 00:34 IshinShishi wrote:
One essential thing people aren't considering is that during Mvp's era sc2 was peaking, everyone was trying hard, the game was huge and viewer numbers were very high with lots of tournaments, so the argument that it wasn't as competitive back then because the game was young gets mostly nullified, if anything it was harder because of how popular the game was, the harsh truth is that almost nobody gives a shit for years now. the argument isn't that the scene wasn't as competitive because the game was young. The scene was less competitive because KeSPA didn't switch yet. With the Kespa switch a wave of extremely talented and hardworking players arrived in the scene and the professionalism increased significantly. There's a reason most of the esf players couldn't compete anymore at the highest level with the exceptions being Maru, PartinG and Life. I followed sc2 during the switch, it was underwhelming to say the least. The elephant in the room turned out to be at most a cow.
Of course it took time for Kespa player to reach pro level in sc2 '-- but in the end they surpassed the old ESF guard. Try to watch some 2010 VOD, it's so slow, players didn't have half the mechanics they have since Kespa switch which pushed every player to train harder.
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On May 01 2018 07:50 Mun_Su wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2018 07:21 IshinShishi wrote:On May 01 2018 03:43 Charoisaur wrote:On May 01 2018 00:34 IshinShishi wrote:
One essential thing people aren't considering is that during Mvp's era sc2 was peaking, everyone was trying hard, the game was huge and viewer numbers were very high with lots of tournaments, so the argument that it wasn't as competitive back then because the game was young gets mostly nullified, if anything it was harder because of how popular the game was, the harsh truth is that almost nobody gives a shit for years now. the argument isn't that the scene wasn't as competitive because the game was young. The scene was less competitive because KeSPA didn't switch yet. With the Kespa switch a wave of extremely talented and hardworking players arrived in the scene and the professionalism increased significantly. There's a reason most of the esf players couldn't compete anymore at the highest level with the exceptions being Maru, PartinG and Life. I followed sc2 during the switch, it was underwhelming to say the least. The elephant in the room turned out to be at most a cow. Of course it took time for Kespa player to reach pro level in sc2 '-- but in the end they surpassed the old ESF guard. Try to watch some 2010 VOD, it's so slow, players didn't have half the mechanics they have since Kespa switch which pushed every player to train harder.
But despite that, it was way more fun to watch back then.
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On May 01 2018 07:50 Mun_Su wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2018 07:21 IshinShishi wrote:On May 01 2018 03:43 Charoisaur wrote:On May 01 2018 00:34 IshinShishi wrote:
One essential thing people aren't considering is that during Mvp's era sc2 was peaking, everyone was trying hard, the game was huge and viewer numbers were very high with lots of tournaments, so the argument that it wasn't as competitive back then because the game was young gets mostly nullified, if anything it was harder because of how popular the game was, the harsh truth is that almost nobody gives a shit for years now. the argument isn't that the scene wasn't as competitive because the game was young. The scene was less competitive because KeSPA didn't switch yet. With the Kespa switch a wave of extremely talented and hardworking players arrived in the scene and the professionalism increased significantly. There's a reason most of the esf players couldn't compete anymore at the highest level with the exceptions being Maru, PartinG and Life. I followed sc2 during the switch, it was underwhelming to say the least. The elephant in the room turned out to be at most a cow. Of course it took time for Kespa player to reach pro level in sc2 '-- but in the end they surpassed the old ESF guard. Try to watch some 2010 VOD, it's so slow, players didn't have half the mechanics they have since Kespa switch which pushed every player to train harder.
Well that's just the "the game was young" argument that is responded to in the comment chain above.
If you watched the tournaments at the time, you'll know that the KeSPA players only started dominating once the KeSPA teams bought the best players and starved out the ESF teams. Even in late 2013 (2013 OSL/WCS Season 2, both in August) KeSPA players were about evenly matched with ESF players (at best), and that was more than a year after the transition. The KeSPA players weren't consistently dominant in Korea until early 2014, by which time the ESF teams were broadly in decline, the Korean scene had shrunk, and Code A was a much simpler/easier format.
People like to pretend all the Brood War players swapped over and won every game, but they didn't, and it's complete fiction to say that they did.
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On May 01 2018 02:02 DieuCure wrote:Yes pre kespa era = hardest to win a gsl rofl
Well... I think most would agree all of HotS was by far the most competitive era. The sheer number of teams, tournaments, team leagues, players in Korea, rigor of the starleague formats and plain interest in the scene was just ridiculous back then.
Still, I honestly don't think pre-Kespa was the primitive shitshow that most would have you believe it was.
At a minimum, I absolutely believe the competition from the second half of 2011 onward was much more fierce than what LotV is today. That is the era that I'd pinpoint as to where the Korean scene really came together and we had a clear low, mid, and top tier of players with guys like Ensnare getting the boot out of code S finally.
On May 01 2018 03:43 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2018 00:34 IshinShishi wrote:
One essential thing people aren't considering is that during Mvp's era sc2 was peaking, everyone was trying hard, the game was huge and viewer numbers were very high with lots of tournaments, so the argument that it wasn't as competitive back then because the game was young gets mostly nullified, if anything it was harder because of how popular the game was, the harsh truth is that almost nobody gives a shit for years now. the argument isn't that the scene wasn't as competitive because the game was young. The scene was less competitive because KeSPA didn't switch yet. With the Kespa switch a wave of extremely talented and hardworking players arrived in the scene and the professionalism increased significantly. There's a reason most of the esf players couldn't compete anymore at the highest level with the exceptions being Maru, PartinG and Life.
I can't deny that Kespa brought an overall stronger pool of players but not significantly better like you're claiming. The lone exception to where the average Kespa players was much better than their non-Kespa counterpart was when it came to Protoss. For whatever reason, the Kespa players have had that race on lock. Prior to their arrival only MC and PartinG had any staying power at the top level. The Kespa tosses have not only been far more dominant but innovative as well, hell Rain was both of these instantly upon arrival
However, when it comes to Terrans, the pre-Kespa pool was far better and more diverse (don't forget Taeja, Polt, Bomber and Dream!). Yeah, Kespa brought us the GOAT (Bogus) and an excellent late bloomer in TY but aside from those two it rapidly breaks down after that compared to the pre-Kespa pool. When it comes to the Zergs I'd say it's about even with a slight favor towards the pre-Kespa pool of Zergs (I don't consider Dark and ByuL Kespa).
==
Another thing that should be mentioned is that the rise of WCS from 2013-2014 kinda further screwed the comparison between the two where a lot of the pre-Kespa players had the leeway to go compete in easier leagues against foreigners while nearly all of the Kespa players had SPL obligations and had to stay home in a much more competitive region. Still, it's worth noting the turning point between 2014 and 2015 where we went from
Full Elephant domination
to immediately after that:
The Old Guard coming home and taking over the majority of code S...
There was also the 2014 Blizzcon where MMA, Life, and Taeja rolled Zest, soO, Classic, and Bogus. MMA, in particular, is of interest considering he hadn't looked like a title contender since early 2012 but he followed up his surprising Blizzcon performance with an even more dominant code S run. Really makes you wonder if a lot of the older players simply aren't as driven anymore and absolutely could be dominant again if they really desired.
Oh and Marineking randomly deciding to be a TvP beast again (and a Kong...)
Really, most of 2015 had a healthy amount of both Kespa and pre-Kespa players posting relevant results. Which is important as I would say that was the most competitive sc2 year overall with 2014 narrowly trailing.
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You're right. I had mostly GSL in mind which was very KeSPA dominated but I get your points that it was for other reasons than the skill gap.
Still the overall player pool got much stronger with the switch which made the scene much more competitive.
But you seem to agree with that already.
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On May 01 2018 08:07 gTank wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2018 07:50 Mun_Su wrote:On May 01 2018 07:21 IshinShishi wrote:On May 01 2018 03:43 Charoisaur wrote:On May 01 2018 00:34 IshinShishi wrote:
One essential thing people aren't considering is that during Mvp's era sc2 was peaking, everyone was trying hard, the game was huge and viewer numbers were very high with lots of tournaments, so the argument that it wasn't as competitive back then because the game was young gets mostly nullified, if anything it was harder because of how popular the game was, the harsh truth is that almost nobody gives a shit for years now. the argument isn't that the scene wasn't as competitive because the game was young. The scene was less competitive because KeSPA didn't switch yet. With the Kespa switch a wave of extremely talented and hardworking players arrived in the scene and the professionalism increased significantly. There's a reason most of the esf players couldn't compete anymore at the highest level with the exceptions being Maru, PartinG and Life. I followed sc2 during the switch, it was underwhelming to say the least. The elephant in the room turned out to be at most a cow. Of course it took time for Kespa player to reach pro level in sc2 '-- but in the end they surpassed the old ESF guard. Try to watch some 2010 VOD, it's so slow, players didn't have half the mechanics they have since Kespa switch which pushed every player to train harder. But despite that, it was way more fun to watch back then.
Only in TvZ, and before blord infest.
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On May 01 2018 17:43 Mun_Su wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2018 08:07 gTank wrote:On May 01 2018 07:50 Mun_Su wrote:On May 01 2018 07:21 IshinShishi wrote:On May 01 2018 03:43 Charoisaur wrote:On May 01 2018 00:34 IshinShishi wrote:
One essential thing people aren't considering is that during Mvp's era sc2 was peaking, everyone was trying hard, the game was huge and viewer numbers were very high with lots of tournaments, so the argument that it wasn't as competitive back then because the game was young gets mostly nullified, if anything it was harder because of how popular the game was, the harsh truth is that almost nobody gives a shit for years now. the argument isn't that the scene wasn't as competitive because the game was young. The scene was less competitive because KeSPA didn't switch yet. With the Kespa switch a wave of extremely talented and hardworking players arrived in the scene and the professionalism increased significantly. There's a reason most of the esf players couldn't compete anymore at the highest level with the exceptions being Maru, PartinG and Life. I followed sc2 during the switch, it was underwhelming to say the least. The elephant in the room turned out to be at most a cow. Of course it took time for Kespa player to reach pro level in sc2 '-- but in the end they surpassed the old ESF guard. Try to watch some 2010 VOD, it's so slow, players didn't have half the mechanics they have since Kespa switch which pushed every player to train harder. But despite that, it was way more fun to watch back then. Only in TvZ, and before blord infest.
Nah even with that. The whole KESPA players will own everything talk was only annoying. Then region spilt was established and it was so much less fun to watch. WoL times were the best to watch for me and more importantly: best to play. It was just fun and with HOTS so many people around me stopped to play. Its important to have a playerbase as well as pros to play tournaments for fans to watch.
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On May 02 2018 01:05 gTank wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2018 17:43 Mun_Su wrote:On May 01 2018 08:07 gTank wrote:On May 01 2018 07:50 Mun_Su wrote:On May 01 2018 07:21 IshinShishi wrote:On May 01 2018 03:43 Charoisaur wrote:On May 01 2018 00:34 IshinShishi wrote:
One essential thing people aren't considering is that during Mvp's era sc2 was peaking, everyone was trying hard, the game was huge and viewer numbers were very high with lots of tournaments, so the argument that it wasn't as competitive back then because the game was young gets mostly nullified, if anything it was harder because of how popular the game was, the harsh truth is that almost nobody gives a shit for years now. the argument isn't that the scene wasn't as competitive because the game was young. The scene was less competitive because KeSPA didn't switch yet. With the Kespa switch a wave of extremely talented and hardworking players arrived in the scene and the professionalism increased significantly. There's a reason most of the esf players couldn't compete anymore at the highest level with the exceptions being Maru, PartinG and Life. I followed sc2 during the switch, it was underwhelming to say the least. The elephant in the room turned out to be at most a cow. Of course it took time for Kespa player to reach pro level in sc2 '-- but in the end they surpassed the old ESF guard. Try to watch some 2010 VOD, it's so slow, players didn't have half the mechanics they have since Kespa switch which pushed every player to train harder. But despite that, it was way more fun to watch back then. Only in TvZ, and before blord infest. Nah even with that. The whole KESPA players will own everything talk was only annoying. Then region spilt was established and it was so much less fun to watch. WoL times were the best to watch for me and more importantly: best to play. It was just fun and with HOTS so many people around me stopped to play. Its important to have a playerbase as well as pros to play tournaments for fans to watch.
WoL was fun because of a few reasons, but none of them being that it was actually better game. Nostalgia, the fact people didn't really understand how to play, and the fact the game was hugely popular.
Watching pro games from WoL now makes them seem less impressive. And anyone who denies the difference in skill between pre and post kespa is delusional. So many of the pre kespa players couldn't even keep competing in korea after the switch.
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On May 01 2018 08:40 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:There was also the 2014 Blizzcon where MMA, Life, and Taeja rolled Zest, soO, Classic, and Bogus. MMA, in particular, is of interest considering he hadn't looked like a title contender since early 2012 but he followed up his surprising Blizzcon performance with an even more dominant code S run. Really makes you wonder if a lot of the older players simply aren't as driven anymore and absolutely could be dominant again if they really desired. Oh and Marineking randomly deciding to be a TvP beast again (and a Kong...) Really, most of 2015 had a healthy amount of both Kespa and pre-Kespa players posting relevant results. Which is important as I would say that was the most competitive sc2 year overall with 2014 narrowly trailing.
The Kespa players dominated in korea especially and raised the skill level significantly. Many of the pre-kespa players couldn't keep up with them in korea and started competing elsewhere. Even the best pre-kespa players were mostly weekend warriors. With exceptions being the absolute best (Life, PartinG, Maru etc)
That blizzcon was a strange event but players more used to performing in weekend/overseas events doing better is no suprise. Even in current blizzcons we see that happening.
The suprise Hot6 run by MKP was crazy, but it really was an anomaly. He was a one trick pony in that event. The protoss players didn't realise how easy he was to beat him until sOs in the final. At least that's how I remember it went (??)
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On May 01 2018 03:46 Clbull wrote:
Innovation's number 1? That's Bogus!
it's innovation for almost a decade now
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On May 02 2018 01:51 Fango wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2018 08:40 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:There was also the 2014 Blizzcon where MMA, Life, and Taeja rolled Zest, soO, Classic, and Bogus. MMA, in particular, is of interest considering he hadn't looked like a title contender since early 2012 but he followed up his surprising Blizzcon performance with an even more dominant code S run. Really makes you wonder if a lot of the older players simply aren't as driven anymore and absolutely could be dominant again if they really desired. Oh and Marineking randomly deciding to be a TvP beast again (and a Kong...) Really, most of 2015 had a healthy amount of both Kespa and pre-Kespa players posting relevant results. Which is important as I would say that was the most competitive sc2 year overall with 2014 narrowly trailing. The Kespa players dominated in korea especially and raised the skill level significantly. Many of the pre-kespa players couldn't keep up with them in korea and started competing elsewhere. Even the best pre-kespa players were mostly weekend warriors. With exceptions being the absolute best (Life, PartinG, Maru etc) That blizzcon was a strange event but players more used to performing in weekend/overseas events doing better is no suprise. Even in current blizzcons we see that happening. The suprise Hot6 run by MKP was crazy, but it really was an anomaly. He was a one trick pony in that event. The protoss players didn't realise how easy he was to beat him until sOs in the final. At least that's how I remember it went (??)
This just factually isn't true. Look at the evidence:
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EPT
