On March 18 2018 19:44 Charoisaur wrote: Hello there! I thought it would be a good idea to get the communities opinion on who the greatest players of all time are. Previous lists are quite outdated by now so it's a good time to get the discussion rolling again. Concept and OP are shamelessly stolen from The_Red_Viper (Hope you don't mind, I would've asked you if you wanted to make one but thought I could as well make one myself).
What i want you to do:
Post your own ranking in this thread, 10 players only, sorted by their overall career achievements. I will only count serious lists. Putting in Has 10 times won't do it.
New: Also pls TLPD-ize your lists, i will only count lists which are formatted that way!
It's pretty simple, just post your top 10 in this thread. I will go through every post and add the points up. The point distribution will be like that:
1. place = 10 points 2. place = 9 points 3. place = 8 points etc.
How much time do i have to post the list?
You will have two weeks, which means i will count every list which is posted till April 1. (Time left to make a list: )
Feel free to discuss your rankings in this thread, if you have extra passion you also can write a short text for your favorite player and post it in here as well (it could be used for the final standings)
Reminder: You can change your list as often as you like, but i will only count the first list you posted in this thread (which means you should edit your post )
Hmmrrm, a lot has change since this last came up for serious discussion in 2015...well, here goes:
1) Bogus (His only flaw is he can't Blizzcon) 2) Life (Remember the skill not what he did) 3) Mvp 4) soO (Very close to overtaking Mvp) 5) sOs 6) TaeJa (suck it) 7) Maru 8) Zest 9) MC 10) MMA
I follow the scene since 2010 with sometimes a few gap like the second part of 2016 and I already enjoyed superb players. I guess many lists will differ but Here we go :
1. Life, tactical genius with superbs attacking instinct and micro, a superb instinct and zerg appears as not as passive as before. A magician. 2. TaeJa (blabla "..." foreign tournament "..." overated with TL award" but still, I will always Remember his victories over Life, Rain, Innovation, Zest with a quiet unique style of play too, like a positionnal chess player, both him and Life correspond to the TIME when the skill ceiling was I think the hightest) While Life is Kasparov, TaeJa is Karpov, both of them are miles ahead all the others for me, their rivalry is the second golden age of sc2 for me. (I still prefer 2011 for guys like Stephano, idrA and a healthy scene but those guys were another kind of superb) 3. Mvp, even if in retrospective I am not really impressed by the overall 2011 play (that's why I do not list MC and nesTea who were only Top world during this time) he was really dominant and the gsl 2012 s4 was legendary even if I never really liked him, oh and he had such a great influence on the metagame at the time. 4. INnoVation, I always find him clinical and almost perfect but I think he lacks the genius or tactical depth of Life/TaeJa. A Machine with brut force but who lacks something, he is still super impressive ofc but putting him first seems really wrong. 5. sOs, the player I dislike the most,I always cheer against his opponents whether they are, he embodies what I hate the most about Protoss race in a way that is quite impressive. 6. Maru, superb player with an unique style, his games against toss like Dear were amazings. 7. Zest, I feel like he has quite a large influence on protoss metagame, a bit one step ahead and in 2014 he was very strong 8. soO, the Kong, a extremely strong macro player, as he won all his finales he would be along INnoVation. 9. Classic, like inno and soO, a super solid protoss player, an even better version of Rain. 10. herO, a strong Protoss with beautiful timings and transitions.
I would have liked to put PartinG in this list because he was the most skilled protoss for me but still, his results were a bit too much lackings. MMA for his resilience and longevity would deserve if not a spot, a mention at the very least. Dark was already strong in hots and is the most consistent zerg in lotv (even more than soO I feel) but I could replace him with none of the players above... ObamaToss impressed me in 2010-2011 and that's all while Soulkey could have been Here if he did not stop his sc2 carreer that fast.
Finally, I would like to thank guys like MKP, Curious, DRG, Kyrix, Leenock, ForGG, Dream, Polt, Bomber, Snute, LucifroN and ofc Stephano who gave me a lot of emotions even if they were not the bests !
I would have appreciated if you would have asked, but it's not a huge deal either way. Not sure if a goat community ranking is the best idea, we will see what happens. Happy that i don't have to do this one though
Something like this for me i think. Honorable mentions to, Maka for making proxy raxy build. To HongUn & Genius for helping making the great Protoss book along with MC. BitByBit also, for being hilarious. Also to JulyZerg for being a very aggressive Zerg early on.
Also FruitDealer for being the guy to start it all.
Its really hard to put some of the guys on the list because thwy played at different periods of the game for different amounts of time.
I think that players who stayed relevant for more years should be ranked high here, while on the other hand we can just guess what would have happened if players started earlier or did not retuere so early in there career (Jaedong, Mvp)
Could not put Polt in the Top 10 because his results were a little inflated in my opinion. I love him but i could not haha
For Jaedong, just think about how he entered the game, completly dominated it for one year (2013) and then had decent results 2014, while still not overcomming a mentale barrier to win the tournaments he played in. Would have loved to see how he would have played skill wise if he played SC2 for a longer period.
After thinking about it more, although Zest at his peak was the epitome of clean, well-rounded play, I'm not sure he really makes the cut. Similarly, Dark is great, but I'm not sure he has much more of a definitive place than Rogue (whose peak play level may be even higher than Dark's), for example. I put in PartinG because his overall results give him an arguable claim, and I like him. Simple as that.
I wanted to put NesTea on the list, I really did. I also wasn't sure if maybe MMA belongs in that last spot more than Polt. I went with Polt because I felt like he remained relevant longer, even though I was a big MMA fan in the early days especially.
For me, the players who I would guess might rise on this list in the next couple years are Maru (if he can stay in form -- PLEAAASSE stay in form, Maru!) and Rogue (come hell or high water). Also, give it a few years and I hope we'll see Reynor on this list. He looks to me like the new Life.
Lastly, I think it would be interesting to make a community list of "scariest players at their peak", where we might see more of a case for players like Dear, for example, and where I think Rogue and Maru would be much higher on the list.
This gets tricky and a bit arbitrary after the First 3... Actually, my Judgement is a lot more subjective after #4. And I really only feel totally 100% sure about #1.
Not putting Grubby/ToD out of respect for them, as they couldve maybe possibly been top 10 if they played long enough, and ranking them lower is breaking my heart
Protoss: 1. Rain His play is protoss porn. The way he controls vision, scouts, reacts and little details on the defensive end is second to none. Too bad he sucks at PvP in an era with many protoss champions. Once he mixed in aggressive style a little bit, he won GSL in a dominating fashion and retired. Now he goes back to finish business in the BW scene. Personally in terms of level of play, no other protoss is close. 2. sOs Master of deception. Clutch HoTS career. Lacks mechanics but he reminds you SC2 is a real-time STRATEGY game and it can be won strategically. 3. Stats Weaker but more consistent version of Rain. I feel he's always taking a long time to adapt to the game for every new change. 4. PartinG Micro God but lack everything else. Still his micro is good enough to make him an automatic GSL ro8 player.
Zerg: 1. Rogue Evolved Rogue is the complete package. 2. Life This guy's best talent is game sense. Natural instinct for opening and what the opponent is thinking. Great micro on top of it. 3. soO Great mechanics and micro, but lacks strategic depth on the highest level. His brute force playstyle suits more for a weekender instead of star league where opponent can study his weekness and prepare for it extensively. Unfortunately he does not participate in weekend tournaments close to enough. 4. Dark Great mechanics, micro and complete range of playstyle. His ego and his G7 performance in a big tournament though leaves something to be desired.
Terran 1. INnoVation Macro God. Perhaps the best TvZ player of all time. He wins with overwhelming opponent with more units. He cheeses by getting away with playing super greedy and let his mechanics carry the game for him. 2. Mvp Best SC2 career for a very long time. 3. TY Strategic Terran and potentially the complete package. His ceiling is extremely high since he shows highest level of macro, micro and understanding of the game. OTOH he's too inconsistent. 4. Maru Much like Zest, Maru finds a good build and sticks to it. He relies on perfect execution. His high tempo style offers opponent many chances to make a mistake and once they do, Maru will finish them relentlessly. He is predictable though and always has one weak matchup that stands out.
1. INnoVation He has been so good for a long time with some bad times sprinkled here and there. 2. soO The most consistently good player there is, but he has never been #1. Had he been the best for any amount of time I would have considered him the Greatest of All Time. 3. Life Extremely good player, but the career got cut short. He wasn't a top player for a long enough time to get the top spot. 4. TaeJa A player with so many victories but so few of them in longer seasonal play. He won vs the best, but never the prestiege victories. 5. PartinG A superb player that always showed great games. Too bad he didn't win a lot. That one PvT on Habitation Station where PartinG used his mothership core to defeat a Gangnam Terran was an amazing show of micro. 3 marines wins vs a MsC, but PartinG's MsC defeated more than 5 marines. He also had group Protoss in GSL 2014, season 1. That was the best day of GSL that I have ever witnessed. 6. Dark Dark has been great for years now. He has been the top dog and he has been the playoffs loser. The promised 10 trophies was possible at the time, but I think the competition is too high and retirement is too close. Military service will probably take Dark before he has won all the trophies he aspired to win. 7. Mvp One of three great in the early days. The one who showed great stuff for the longest period of those three. MC may have won the most money, but a lot of that depended on the prize pool of their victories, not the skill demonstrated nor the consistency. 8. Zest A player that has showed the highest high in my eyes. Too bad it didn't last long. His form has been a rollercoaster. To be ranked higher you need fewer, shorter and not as low lows as Zest has had. 9. sOs Another player that has had rollercoaster performance. The difference being that sOs has been able to be the best when it mattered. sOs has been among the lower of A-tier players with peaks of greatness. Regarding playstyle: he has been among the best scouters. Probing early game and often acting when weakness is spotted. sOs 2014 PvZ was probe scout that often turned into a cannon rush. In 2015 he won PvTs off of a probe scout and a not-cancelled safety zealot, doing a BW-esque early pressure that turned into victories. On top of that we have his PvP reputation. There are not many players that would rather play sOs than objectively better players. $o$ is scary. 10.Maru The reason for Terran to not be buffed whenever the race is underperforming is often Maru. He plays well when most other Terran players are struggling. He has a very aggressive style and manages to macro as he microes. I specifically looked at Maru's resources during WÉSG this week. He microed marines forwards on creep vs baneling hydra AND kept his mineral count below 200 for more than 1 minute. He target fired tank shots on banelings, spread marines AND built 2 barracks and started 2/2 upgrades (1/1 just finished) within 5 seconds. The man can handle his economy and micro simultaneously. Maru is a beast. His record long win streak in Proleague is a testament to that. I am not sure about this, but I think Maru has always been among the last 4 to be picked in code S group nominations whenever he qualified for the round of 16. The other players are respecting Maru as a top player. Had Maru been as great when Terran does well as he is when Terran does poorly... well, he would have been a contender for GOAT.
If there were truly a GOAT, it would still be active and crushing today. The moment you stop winning, nobody cares anymore about anything you ever accomplished. Sad but real.
Instead, I recommend the title GOUAT: Greatest-of-One-Upon-A-Time
On March 19 2018 01:48 yangluphil wrote: soO His brute force playstyle suits more for a weekender instead of star league where opponent can study his weekness and prepare for it extensively.
This is a special kind of factual inaccuracy people would struggle to recreate if they tried.
On March 19 2018 01:48 yangluphil wrote: soO His brute force playstyle suits more for a weekender instead of star league where opponent can study his weekness and prepare for it extensively.
This is a special kind of factual inaccuracy people would struggle to recreate if they tried.
Elaborate.
I will also say this. SoO overachieved in a lot of tournament runs where he ended up as the runner-up. Obvious example was the two GSL runs last year and blizzcon where he was not a top4 player. Bracket luck or not, he deserved credit for placing as high as he did.
SoO attends way more star league tournaments than weekenders and his only champion so far has been kespa cup which is a short event. So I'm curious to see why you think it's such a ridiculous thought?
On March 19 2018 01:48 yangluphil wrote: soO His brute force playstyle suits more for a weekender instead of star league where opponent can study his weekness and prepare for it extensively.
This is a special kind of factual inaccuracy people would struggle to recreate if they tried.
Elaborate.
He's a 6-time GSL finalist in 12 Code S runs, on his way to potentially 7 in 13, what more do I really have to say? 3 finals in 17 weekenders, I guess. Sure, the only thing he's won was a weekender, but the format plays a bigger role in getting to the finals than in winning the finals.
If there were truly a GOAT, it would still be active and crushing today. The moment you stop winning, nobody cares anymore about anything you ever accomplished. Sad but real.
Instead, I recommend the title GOUAT: Greatest-of-One-Upon-A-Time
Are you talking about SC2 only? I ask because the conversation of GOAT in other sports is a hot topic and involves both past and present stars.
And a lot of the players who are no longer playing, those who made an impact on the scene, are still regularly talked about. I think the prime example if Life. Imagine if he hadn't done something so stupid, he would still probably be one of the best players around.
On March 19 2018 01:48 yangluphil wrote: soO His brute force playstyle suits more for a weekender instead of star league where opponent can study his weekness and prepare for it extensively.
This is a special kind of factual inaccuracy people would struggle to recreate if they tried.
Elaborate.
I will also say this. SoO overachieved in a lot of tournament runs where he ended up as the runner-up. Obvious example was the two GSL runs last year and blizzcon where he was not a top4 player. Bracket luck or not, he deserved credit for placing as high as he did.
SoO attends way more star league tournaments than weekenders and his only champion so far has been kespa cup which is a short event. So I'm curious to see why you think it's such a ridiculous thought?
soO is one of the best starleague players of all time. He's made more gsl finals than MVP or Inno
and many more, feels Bad to leave out herO, Zest, MC, sOs, soO, Rogue, Maru, PartinG (he was really good at some Point). also felt the need to add the best foreigners here, for me Stephano and NaNiwa were the hope of the foreigners for a really long time and they were good even when the gap was much bigger. Serral and Neeb, even if they are really good, they are not yet at that level overall.
If there were truly a GOAT, it would still be active and crushing today. The moment you stop winning, nobody cares anymore about anything you ever accomplished. Sad but real.
Instead, I recommend the title GOUAT: Greatest-of-One-Upon-A-Time
Are you talking about SC2 only? I ask because the conversation of GOAT in other sports is a hot topic and involves both past and present stars.
And a lot of the players who are no longer playing, those who made an impact on the scene, are still regularly talked about. I think the prime example if Life. Imagine if he hadn't done something so stupid, he would still probably be one of the best players around.
Yes, ok no bonjwa in sc2, but we can discuss about GOAT.
honorable mentions: MMA, Bomber, TaeJa. Sorry my wonderful Terrans, but Protoss bias. But let me assure you - you're not forgotten! Also I would love to mention NaNiwa & Stephano. Both of them played one of the best foreign SC2 I've ever seen.
Too many players, too few spots
I was thinking about placing soO 2nd, but honestly, anyone in my top6 can be first(or second).
On March 19 2018 01:48 yangluphil wrote: ... 4. PartinG Micro God but lack everything else. Still his micro is good enough to make him an automatic GSL ro8 player. ...
FYI Parting revolutionized Protoss openings in WoL with his Templar opening. He "made" it viable and when he was doing it, he played exactly like Rain, but with much better micro(vision everywhere, reactions, storms everywhere, it was beautiful). Parting was/is stubborn at times(*cough* certain game vs. innovation *cough*), but he's certainly not lacking in other areas. It seems that way as he's stubborn and cocky, but he's not sOs or Zest who have huge deficits in their game(#ZestsMacro).
Although the ordering of these guys is really ambiguous, you could swap half of them around easily. I don't think sc2 has a clear GOAT by any means, but it does have a clear circle of all time greats.
1 INnoVation (No shit?) 2 soO (Uhh, if you put soO on any list he's second) 3 Mvp (King of Wings) 4 Rain (Rain fan bias, only player to win GSL and OSL ....yet) 5 Rogue (Blizzcon WC and IEM WC, no doubting this guy) 6 sOs (100000 dollar Man) 7 Maru (Marineprince) 8 Zest (Extremely high high's and extremely low low's) 9 MC (OBAMATOSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) 10 TaeJa (King of useless tourneys but still has the most tournament wins so he gets a spot)
1. Mvp (Stuchiu managed to convince me with his videos/articles lol) 2. soO (Extremly good consistency. Ranking anyone above soO here is unjust) 3. INnoVation 4. Maru 5. Zest (bias aside, he's arguable the one of the greatest and perhaps the greatest Protoss of all time with his peaks and meta influence) 6. Stats (very good consistency) 7. Dark 8. TaeJa (out of respect) 9. Rogue (Good peak since the later half of last year until now) 10. sOs
On March 19 2018 18:33 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: The amount of Rogue I'm seeing on these lists is alarming and I like the guy...
DRG, Leenock, and Dark easily beat him in all-time accomplishments. Give him time though!
Rogue, Dark and soO are in the category of top3 zergs in SC2 for some time. Then it's just a personal preference who's who(1st, soO, 3rd). IMO
Life has better accomplishment than these three. He's got 10 titles in major tournaments including 2 starleagues and 1 blizzcon, and 4 second places in major tournaments.
There are some horrendous opinions in here goddamn
I'm gonna say this one thing, even though there's so much to address: Zest holds the record for most GSLs of any Protoss, and for most Korean tournaments won by a Protoss unless I'm horribly mistaken. He had the longest streak of any Protoss dominating the game. If he doesn't make your list, your list is terrible.
Let me explain this list, I haven't really watched starcraft for years, and I just started playing again, so this list is guys I thought were good in their own times and it's massively biased.
Hyun was my favourite player after Idra and an online beast, Bomber was like the first big macro terran I remember and his BM was funny. Idra was my favourite player and I wish he had won more. I had to put one protoss on the list and I liked Lure because in like 2011 in some PvT he built like 8 observers and I liked that.
Got to have one team liquid guy and snute is probably the best guy they have I never liked Taeja.
Something like this for me i think. Honorable mentions to, Maka for making proxy raxy build. To HongUn & Genius for helping making the great Protoss book along with MC. BitByBit also, for being hilarious. Also to JulyZerg for being a very aggressive Zerg early on.
Also FruitDealer for being the guy to start it all.
On March 19 2018 21:34 Poopi wrote: This list gonna be very tough especially because most pros stopped before LotV... It will be hard not to be biased for the current top players.
I agree. The level of competition since LotV started has been laughable compared to WoL and HotS. Most Koreans have moved on/ back to other games (BW, MOBAs, etc.), sadly.
On March 19 2018 21:34 Poopi wrote: This list gonna be very tough especially because most pros stopped before LotV... It will be hard not to be biased for the current top players.
I agree. The level of competition since LotV started has been laughable compared to WoL and HotS. Most Koreans have moved on/ back to other games (BW, MOBAs, etc.), sadly.
Compared to HotS maybe but no way the skill level is lower than in WoL. People forget how terrible most pros played in 2011
On March 19 2018 18:33 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: The amount of Rogue I'm seeing on these lists is alarming and I like the guy...
DRG, Leenock, and Dark easily beat him in all-time accomplishments. Give him time though!
Rogue, Dark and soO are in the category of top3 zergs in SC2 for some time. Then it's just a personal preference who's who(1st, soO, 3rd). IMO
Contemporary Zergs, sure. All-time? No way for Rogue
and that's just the Zergs
I can see arguments for Rogue as he has four tier 1 tournament wins which ties Life for best Zerg so if you value tournament wins over consistency he can make the list.
1. Mvp (The GOAT. Faced the most adversity, had one of the highest peaks, influenced the meta game beyond belief, smartest player of all time, most clutch player of all time, took prime INnoVation to five games after injury.)
2. Life (Amazing player, despite all that he's done, which unfortunately stopped him from ever taking #1 on this list. Best instincts of all time. One of the best mechanical players. Amazing playstyle. Just a phenomenal talent, the likes of which we won't ever see in sc2.)
3. soO (It's a stunning feat to go on a run of GSL finals appearances, and he's done it twice. One of the most consistent players of all time. Arguably the most accomplished player of all time. However, I value consistency slightly less than others might, or else he'd be #2 on this list.)
4. TaeJa (Similarly to soO, except with foreign domination and championships instead of korean domination and finals. Great player. He looked less good in GSL, which stops him from being #2, but you cannot look at this guy's resume and tell me he doesn't deserve a high spot on this list. One of the best 'hit lists' of players he's beaten of all time.)
5. INnoVation (One of the most consistent mechanical players of all time, one of the few terrans to not battle injury his entire career. Still has many horrible, embarrassing moments (blowing a 3-0 lead, blowing that lead vs Mvp, losing to NaNiwa, often vanishing after winning a championship, etc.) which stop him from being higher.
6. MC (Hilarious personality, and one of the great innovators of the early stages of the game as well. However, unlike NesTea, he showed that he could continue to compete at a high level well after his prime, and continued to both show great domestic results and incredibly good international results for years after.)
7. Zest (One of the most underrated players of all time. One of the great innovators of the HotS era. He has the highest peak of any protoss ever. However, he makes befuddling mistakes which keep him from really being in the GOAT conversation - TANGTANG, really?)
8. Polt (Arguably the most ever-lasting player, Polt was a domestic success and then went on to be the most internationally successful player of all time, and his ability to continue his career in WCS long after his mechanics started to fail him speaks to his mentality. One of the great minds of our game.)
9. Maru (Unfortunately without a GSL title, but Maru is arguably the greatest mechanical player of all time, the greatest mechanical terran of all time, one of the greatest proleague players in SC2 history, one of the higher peaks in SC2 history, and a player who has repeatedly made runs after his prime and when his race was in poor balance. Slight inconsistency and inability to win a GSL - yet - stops him from being higher.)
10. Rain (Incredibly consistent player who added a lot to his game with age. Began as one of the most dominant protosses we've ever seen and left as an OSL champion, a GSL champion, a proleague all-star, and one of the best protosses of all time.)
Honorable Mentions : MMA, NesTea, MarineKing, sOs (NesTea/MarineKing have great peaks but get moved down to their inability to make continued runs after their prime; MMA could probably get a spot in this list, but I felt like his results took a harsh dip after ~2012 - no, his Blizzcon run is not that impressive to me; sOs could probably sneak in with continued success, and is the ultimate counter-argument to anyone putting Rogue on their list. He did IEM WC + Blizzcon first, after all.)
On March 19 2018 21:34 Poopi wrote: This list gonna be very tough especially because most pros stopped before LotV... It will be hard not to be biased for the current top players.
I agree. The level of competition since LotV started has been laughable compared to WoL and HotS. Most Koreans have moved on/ back to other games (BW, MOBAs, etc.), sadly.
If by "level of competition" you purely mean number of players then yeah. If you talk about skill level then it's ridiculous to claim WoL is better than LoTV. They barely knew how to play the game in WoL (in comparison). After the kespa switch the skill level went up dramatically.
On March 19 2018 01:48 yangluphil wrote: soO His brute force playstyle suits more for a weekender instead of star league where opponent can study his weekness and prepare for it extensively.
This is a special kind of factual inaccuracy people would struggle to recreate if they tried.
Elaborate.
He's a 6-time GSL finalist in 12 Code S runs, on his way to potentially 7 in 13, what more do I really have to say? 3 finals in 17 weekenders, I guess. Sure, the only thing he's won was a weekender, but the format plays a bigger role in getting to the finals than in winning the finals.
My original statement was horribly wrong. I meant soO has a higher chance of winning a weekender than a starleague tournament. I do think being rock solid makes it easier for him to do well in group stages of GSL though. If a player is in the same group as soO or INnoVation, it makes more sense for them to prepare for other matches than bet their chances to advance on knocking down a player like soO (especially since you probably have to win 2 bo3s against him in group stage).
soO's first streak of finals appearance was impressive. He was also at his peak and undoubtedly a top 3 player. The two appearances in 2017 were more due to bracket luck than him being great at preparing for the ro8, ro4 matches in a starleague tournament. If you go back to each final he lost, soO's way of tackling the finals had always been 'practicing even harder' than 'playing specifically to address opponent's weakness'. He does not strike me as great at adapting across series, and when he gets surprised in a bo7, he becomes mentally shaken and even more predictable. If you don't have the complete range in a bo7 when the other player will try different things specifically prepared for you, it's hard to win it all. This factor however small (sure luck and soO's mental state might have played a way bigger role), hardly exists in a weekender finals.
On March 20 2018 01:22 Soularion wrote: 1. Mvp (The GOAT. Faced the most adversity, had one of the highest peaks, influenced the meta game beyond belief, smartest player of all time, most clutch player of all time, took prime INnoVation to five games after injury.)
2. Life (Amazing player, despite all that he's done, which unfortunately stopped him from ever taking #1 on this list. Best instincts of all time. One of the best mechanical players. Amazing playstyle. Just a phenomenal talent, the likes of which we won't ever see in sc2.)
3. soO (It's a stunning feat to go on a run of GSL finals appearances, and he's done it twice. One of the most consistent players of all time. Arguably the most accomplished player of all time. However, I value consistency slightly less than others might, or else he'd be #2 on this list.)
4. TaeJa (Similarly to soO, except with foreign domination and championships instead of korean domination and finals. Great player. He looked less good in GSL, which stops him from being #2, but you cannot look at this guy's resume and tell me he doesn't deserve a high spot on this list. One of the best 'hit lists' of players he's beaten of all time.)
5. INnoVation (One of the most consistent mechanical players of all time, one of the few terrans to not battle injury his entire career. Still has many horrible, embarrassing moments (blowing a 3-0 lead, blowing that lead vs Mvp, losing to NaNiwa, often vanishing after winning a championship, etc.) which stop him from being higher.
6. MC (Hilarious personality, and one of the great innovators of the early stages of the game as well. However, unlike NesTea, he showed that he could continue to compete at a high level well after his prime, and continued to both show great domestic results and incredibly good international results for years after.)
7. Zest (One of the most underrated players of all time. One of the great innovators of the HotS era. He has the highest peak of any protoss ever. However, he makes befuddling mistakes which keep him from really being in the GOAT conversation - TANGTANG, really?)
8. Polt (Arguably the most ever-lasting player, Polt was a domestic success and then went on to be the most internationally successful player of all time, and his ability to continue his career in WCS long after his mechanics started to fail him speaks to his mentality. One of the great minds of our game.)
9. Maru (Unfortunately without a GSL title, but Maru is arguably the greatest mechanical player of all time, the greatest mechanical terran of all time, one of the greatest proleague players in SC2 history, one of the higher peaks in SC2 history, and a player who has repeatedly made runs after his prime and when his race was in poor balance. Slight inconsistency and inability to win a GSL - yet - stops him from being higher.)
10. Rain (Incredibly consistent player who added a lot to his game with age. Began as one of the most dominant protosses we've ever seen and left as an OSL champion, a GSL champion, a proleague all-star, and one of the best protosses of all time.)
Honorable Mentions : MMA, NesTea, MarineKing, sOs (NesTea/MarineKing have great peaks but get moved down to their inability to make continued runs after their prime; MMA could probably get a spot in this list, but I felt like his results took a harsh dip after ~2012 - no, his Blizzcon run is not that impressive to me; sOs could probably sneak in with continued success, and is the ultimate counter-argument to anyone putting Rogue on their list. He did IEM WC + Blizzcon first, after all.)
My list is definitely weighted towards active players, as I believe longevity is important in success. Mvp is GOAT solely on the fact that he was the first 'Best in the World' and history counts (similar to how BoxeR is considered a GOAT). soO at #2 is due to his ridiculous consistency to compete at a high level.
My list is definitely weighted towards active players, as I believe longevity is important in success. Mvp is GOAT solely on the fact that he was the first 'Best in the World' and history counts (similar to how BoxeR is considered a GOAT). soO at #2 is due to his ridiculous consistency to compete at a high level.
So weighted towards active players you have Zest twice.
My list is definitely weighted towards active players, as I believe longevity is important in success. Mvp is GOAT solely on the fact that he was the first 'Best in the World' and history counts (similar to how BoxeR is considered a GOAT). soO at #2 is due to his ridiculous consistency to compete at a high level.
So weighted towards active players you have Zest twice.
As opposed to a lot of people who don't even have him in once, which is just as absurd.
My list is definitely weighted towards active players, as I believe longevity is important in success. Mvp is GOAT solely on the fact that he was the first 'Best in the World' and history counts (similar to how BoxeR is considered a GOAT). soO at #2 is due to his ridiculous consistency to compete at a high level.
So weighted towards active players you have Zest twice.
As opposed to a lot of people who don't even have him in once, which is just as absurd.
Obviously it's all subjective. But I do think Zest is the obvious pick as #1 protoss. I don't see any reason to put another above him, or have him missing on a top 10 list. His 2014 might be the best year of any player to date, except Mvp's 2011 depending on how you look at it.
Another player who seems to be criminally underrated is herO. 3 korean tournament wins, won 3 stacked IEMs, Proleague monster + a couple more final appearances. I feel like he HAS to be in a Top 10 list.
I'm not voting, bu I'll say this. If mechanics could have keep track of the brain, NesTea would be the GOAT. He was doing things no one could have imagined that could work. And can't forget that InCa final \m/
Not putting Grubby/ToD out of respect for them, as they couldve maybe possibly been top 10 if they played long enough, and ranking them lower is breaking my heart
This list is 100% accurate don't @ me
I won't comment on much but a few things. Naama and elfi under Feast, Sheth, Kane and Suppy? :D Also where is Welmu. :DD
On March 20 2018 04:12 IshinShishi wrote: people that put Life first whilst Mvp isn't even on their list should be ignored as they are clearly salty about Mvp's goatness.
and vice versa. betting scandal doesn't take away from his success - in my mind, it acutally ADDS to his success - he lost some touranments on PURPOSE ffs.
On March 20 2018 04:12 IshinShishi wrote: people that put Life first whilst Mvp isn't even on their list should be ignored as they are clearly salty about Mvp's goatness.
and vice versa. betting scandal doesn't take away from his success - in my mind, it acutally ADDS to his success - he lost some touranments on PURPOSE ffs.
He didn't lost a tournament on purpose, he only lost some games in different series on purpose, in A tournament (singular form).
My list is definitely weighted towards active players, as I believe longevity is important in success. Mvp is GOAT solely on the fact that he was the first 'Best in the World' and history counts (similar to how BoxeR is considered a GOAT). soO at #2 is due to his ridiculous consistency to compete at a high level.
So weighted towards active players you have Zest twice.
As opposed to a lot of people who don't even have him in once, which is just as absurd.
Obviously it's all subjective. But I do think Zest is the obvious pick as #1 protoss. I don't see any reason to put another above him, or have him missing on a top 10 list. His 2014 might be the best year of any player to date, except Mvp's 2011 depending on how you look at it.
Prior to 2017 I'd of given Zest #1 Protoss, but I think sOs has definitely overtaken him now with getting another 2nd place in GSL.
It's close but it amounts to this:
- They tie on IEM WC wins of similar competition - Zest has x2 GSL wins, but sOs has x2 Blizzcon wins and x2 GSL silvers - They're about the same in ro8+ starleague runs - In Weekend tournaments they're also pretty close
the distinguishing factor is that despite how much people rag on sOs for his inconsistency (overblown tbh) he has never hit the same lows that Zest sometimes has and he's usually competitive enough to be around ro8 GSL level. Zest strikes me as a very dominant player when things are stable or favorable for Protoss, sOs just seems to have that magic aura where you always need to be afraid of him like with Mvp, Life, and Taeja. Additionally, sOs has another edge in longevity. Zest didn't explode out the gate until 2014.
My list is definitely weighted towards active players, as I believe longevity is important in success. Mvp is GOAT solely on the fact that he was the first 'Best in the World' and history counts (similar to how BoxeR is considered a GOAT). soO at #2 is due to his ridiculous consistency to compete at a high level.
So weighted towards active players you have Zest twice.
As opposed to a lot of people who don't even have him in once, which is just as absurd.
Obviously it's all subjective. But I do think Zest is the obvious pick as #1 protoss. I don't see any reason to put another above him, or have him missing on a top 10 list. His 2014 might be the best year of any player to date, except Mvp's 2011 depending on how you look at it.
INnovation's 2017 wasn't bad, with 2 starleagues and a weekender, or even 2 weekender since IEM Ggyeongji was part of 2017 season.
My list is definitely weighted towards active players, as I believe longevity is important in success. Mvp is GOAT solely on the fact that he was the first 'Best in the World' and history counts (similar to how BoxeR is considered a GOAT). soO at #2 is due to his ridiculous consistency to compete at a high level.
So weighted towards active players you have Zest twice.
As opposed to a lot of people who don't even have him in once, which is just as absurd.
Obviously it's all subjective. But I do think Zest is the obvious pick as #1 protoss. I don't see any reason to put another above him, or have him missing on a top 10 list. His 2014 might be the best year of any player to date, except Mvp's 2011 depending on how you look at it.
INnovation's 2017 wasn't bad, with 2 starleagues and a weekender, or even 2 weekender since IEM Ggyeongji was part of 2017 season.
I'd still say Zest's 2014 was better than Inno's 2017. Zest's worst result in a korean tournament for the whole year was a single ro8. Every other tournament he won or got ro4 in. The duel starleague is sick however, barely anyone has done that.
Naniwa's personality did a good job of hiding the fact he didn't really win much.
HuK, Scarlett, and Snute all won more championships than Naniwa.
Maybe this poster prizes championships particularly highly (though by that logic Soo wouldn't be 2nd so I dunno.
Personally, I sometimes rank HuK above Naniwa. Dallas and Raliegh cancel eachother out (no Koreans so they're not worth talking about). Then HuK's got HSC3, Orlando, and Dreamhack where Naniwa has... That one invitational where he went beast mode and beat Mvp and Nestea. That was dope, but it's one tournament championship compared to HuK's 2 or 3 depending on whether you consider HSC3 to be premier or not.
My list is definitely weighted towards active players, as I believe longevity is important in success. Mvp is GOAT solely on the fact that he was the first 'Best in the World' and history counts (similar to how BoxeR is considered a GOAT). soO at #2 is due to his ridiculous consistency to compete at a high level.
So weighted towards active players you have Zest twice.
As opposed to a lot of people who don't even have him in once, which is just as absurd.
Obviously it's all subjective. But I do think Zest is the obvious pick as #1 protoss. I don't see any reason to put another above him, or have him missing on a top 10 list. His 2014 might be the best year of any player to date, except Mvp's 2011 depending on how you look at it.
INnovation's 2017 wasn't bad, with 2 starleagues and a weekender, or even 2 weekender since IEM Ggyeongji was part of 2017 season.
I'd still say Zest's 2014 was better than Inno's 2017. Zest's worst result in a korean tournament for the whole year was a single ro8. Every other tournament he won or got ro4 in. The duel starleague is sick however, barely anyone has done that.
I guess it's all point of view then; still 2 awesome years for these players.
My list is definitely weighted towards active players, as I believe longevity is important in success. Mvp is GOAT solely on the fact that he was the first 'Best in the World' and history counts (similar to how BoxeR is considered a GOAT). soO at #2 is due to his ridiculous consistency to compete at a high level.
So weighted towards active players you have Zest twice.
As opposed to a lot of people who don't even have him in once, which is just as absurd.
Obviously it's all subjective. But I do think Zest is the obvious pick as #1 protoss. I don't see any reason to put another above him, or have him missing on a top 10 list. His 2014 might be the best year of any player to date, except Mvp's 2011 depending on how you look at it.
Both MC and Parting had longer eras. e.g. bOth of them getting into RO8 when BL infestor was in its prime. While Zest is in the top5 of all time for sure, it's hard. MC & Parting have earlier starts which gives them the advantage and Parting was a beast even when Zest was around. Then it's just subjective how do you rank sOs, Zest, Parting, MC and Stats. And since this is about 10 players only 3 of them can get in.
And while Zest has the nicest body of them all, MC has better singing and probably all of them have better macro than Zest.
In my case it's personal feelings, MC gave me mothersip, 4 carriers, templars, 2-4 colossi & void ray composition to fight BL infestor(it worked quite nicely on most of the maps), Parting gave me the Templar opening. Rain gave me turtle-toss. Zest is a really beautiful dude, but that's not enough for me
My list is definitely weighted towards active players, as I believe longevity is important in success. Mvp is GOAT solely on the fact that he was the first 'Best in the World' and history counts (similar to how BoxeR is considered a GOAT). soO at #2 is due to his ridiculous consistency to compete at a high level.
So weighted towards active players you have Zest twice.
As opposed to a lot of people who don't even have him in once, which is just as absurd.
Obviously it's all subjective. But I do think Zest is the obvious pick as #1 protoss. I don't see any reason to put another above him, or have him missing on a top 10 list. His 2014 might be the best year of any player to date, except Mvp's 2011 depending on how you look at it.
Both MC and Parting had longer eras. e.g. bOth of them getting into RO8 when BL infestor was in its prime. While Zest is in the top5 of all time for sure, it's hard. MC & Parting have earlier starts which gives them the advantage and Parting was a beast even when Zest was around. Then it's just subjective how do you rank sOs, Zest, Parting, MC and Stats. And since this is about 10 players only 3 of them can get in.
And while Zest has the nicest body of them all, MC has better singing and probably all of them have better macro than Zest.
In my case it's personal feelings, MC gave me mothersip, 4 carriers, templars, 2-4 colossi & void ray composition to fight BL infestor(it worked quite nicely on most of the maps), Parting gave me the Templar opening. Rain gave me turtle-toss. Zest is a really beautiful dude, but that's not enough for me
I love PartinG and he's my favourite protoss of all time but he just doesn't have the results to justify putting him in the top 10.
My list is definitely weighted towards active players, as I believe longevity is important in success. Mvp is GOAT solely on the fact that he was the first 'Best in the World' and history counts (similar to how BoxeR is considered a GOAT). soO at #2 is due to his ridiculous consistency to compete at a high level.
So weighted towards active players you have Zest twice.
As opposed to a lot of people who don't even have him in once, which is just as absurd.
Obviously it's all subjective. But I do think Zest is the obvious pick as #1 protoss. I don't see any reason to put another above him, or have him missing on a top 10 list. His 2014 might be the best year of any player to date, except Mvp's 2011 depending on how you look at it.
Both MC and Parting had longer eras. e.g. bOth of them getting into RO8 when BL infestor was in its prime. While Zest is in the top5 of all time for sure, it's hard. MC & Parting have earlier starts which gives them the advantage and Parting was a beast even when Zest was around. Then it's just subjective how do you rank sOs, Zest, Parting, MC and Stats. And since this is about 10 players only 3 of them can get in.
And while Zest has the nicest body of them all, MC has better singing and probably all of them have better macro than Zest.
In my case it's personal feelings, MC gave me mothersip, 4 carriers, templars, 2-4 colossi & void ray composition to fight BL infestor(it worked quite nicely on most of the maps), Parting gave me the Templar opening. Rain gave me turtle-toss. Zest is a really beautiful dude, but that's not enough for me
I love PartinG and he's my favourite protoss of all time but he just doesn't have the results to justify putting him in the top 10.
Zest cannot be compared to Parting. You're talking about someone who's never won in Korea vs someone who holds the record for Protoss GSLs (tied with MC if you don't count Global Ch.), the record for most KR championships won by Protoss overall, and the longest and highest peak of any Protoss in the game. Sorry but there's no justifiable argument to put Parting above Zest.
My list is definitely weighted towards active players, as I believe longevity is important in success. Mvp is GOAT solely on the fact that he was the first 'Best in the World' and history counts (similar to how BoxeR is considered a GOAT). soO at #2 is due to his ridiculous consistency to compete at a high level.
So weighted towards active players you have Zest twice.
As opposed to a lot of people who don't even have him in once, which is just as absurd.
Obviously it's all subjective. But I do think Zest is the obvious pick as #1 protoss. I don't see any reason to put another above him, or have him missing on a top 10 list. His 2014 might be the best year of any player to date, except Mvp's 2011 depending on how you look at it.
Both MC and Parting had longer eras. e.g. bOth of them getting into RO8 when BL infestor was in its prime. While Zest is in the top5 of all time for sure, it's hard. MC & Parting have earlier starts which gives them the advantage and Parting was a beast even when Zest was around. Then it's just subjective how do you rank sOs, Zest, Parting, MC and Stats. And since this is about 10 players only 3 of them can get in.
And while Zest has the nicest body of them all, MC has better singing and probably all of them have better macro than Zest.
In my case it's personal feelings, MC gave me mothersip, 4 carriers, templars, 2-4 colossi & void ray composition to fight BL infestor(it worked quite nicely on most of the maps), Parting gave me the Templar opening. Rain gave me turtle-toss. Zest is a really beautiful dude, but that's not enough for me
I love PartinG and he's my favourite protoss of all time but he just doesn't have the results to justify putting him in the top 10.
Zest cannot be compared to Parting. You're talking about someone who's never won in Korea vs someone who holds the record for Protoss GSLs (tied with MC if you don't count Global Ch.), the record for most KR championships won by Protoss overall, and the longest and highest peak of any Protoss in the game. Sorry but there's no justifiable argument to put Parting above Zest.
Personally I don't count GSL Global Championship or GSL World etc as Starleague titles... but still winning 2 GSL in 2014 is more difficult than winning 2 GSL in 2010 and 2011.
As for Parting, he had the raw skills and the big mouth, but the results never backed that.
If anyone cares to calculate how often terran players are mentioned and compares that to how many players are in fact playing terran (US/EU, or alternatively compare to how many GSL wins by terran or whatever - you pick), then you get real numbers about the liquid bias. That would be of greater interest than that GOAT thing, as we all know on TL only a terran can be GOAT ever, lol.
On March 21 2018 01:37 LSN wrote: If anyone cares to calculate how often terran players are mentioned and compares that to how many players are in fact playing terran (US/EU, or alternatively compare to how many GSL wins by terran or whatever - you pick), then you get real numbers about the liquid bias. That would be of greater interest than that GOAT thing, as we all know on TL only a terran can be GOAT ever, lol.
Also WTF is Has doing there? He isn't even the best tawainese players. Also Lilbow and Elazer deserve to be above MajOr in my mind but that's open to discution.
What does Greatest Of All Time mean? What is greatness for you? From my point of view, behaving improperly grants negative points. Destroying Proleague too, that's why that Zerg player is not in my GOAT list.
On March 20 2018 08:29 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: Also, I love how International = Please No Koreans!
"International" in contrast with the real GOAT list, which is "Intranational" :-) "Foreigner" is a word I dislike.
On March 20 2018 14:06 TheDougler wrote: Naniwa's personality did a good job of hiding the fact he didn't really win much.
HuK, Scarlett, and Snute all won more championships than Naniwa.
Maybe this poster prizes championships particularly highly (though by that logic Soo wouldn't be 2nd so I dunno).
You're totally right regarding Naniwa, he did not win as much as many people feel he did. We just spoke more about him. soO is 2nd in my list because ... well...
On March 21 2018 02:09 Nakajin wrote: Also WTF is Has doing there? He isn't even the best tawainese players. Also Lilbow and Elazer deserve to be above MajOr in my mind but that's open to discution.
Has is there because Has is great, and this is a greatness list.
Feel all free to post your own International ranking so that I can discuss about it also...
GOAT is one of those subjective things that everyone thinks is different. Getting the community to agree on one GOAT is next to impossible without overwhelming evidence in a single player's favor. To raise one player above all others demands a feat no other player can equal. Anything less is merely quibbling over semantics.
That being said, everyone can count big shiny trophies and from that simplest of criteria alone we can restrict the list of GOAT contenders to Mvp, Life, Taeja, and Inno. The next-simplest criteria is to look at the quality of those big shiny trophies, namely Korean and foreign tournaments, Starleagues and weekenders. From that we can eliminate Life and Taeja, and hence we are left with only Mvp and Inno.
Mvp and Inno are the only two players to have won 4 GSLs apiece (among many other trophies), and as such both are the only two to come within striking distance of the legendary G5L. To claim that trophy of trophies would indeed be a feat no other player can equal.
Succinctly put, he who claims the G5L claims the crown of GOAT.
he doesnt have Life in his top 15. He has Has at 9 who literally did nothing compared to someone like Elazer or Thorazain. just ignore such posts
Life doesn't belong in the top 1000. Naniwa definitely isn't top 10, but arguing someone who literally shit in the game and communities face belongs in the best players ever is stupid
If we are going for "overall career achievements" I think this thread is just really dumb as this criterion just means everyone should look up the same people in liquipedia and post them.. I think my list would be a mix of best consistency over time/ best peak skill / most achievements. Maybe I will post one later.
he doesnt have Life in his top 15. He has Has at 9 who literally did nothing compared to someone like Elazer or Thorazain. just ignore such posts
Life doesn't belong in the top 1000. Naniwa definitely isn't top 10, but arguing someone who literally shit in the game and communities face belongs in the best players ever is stupid
Yea Life with insane game sense 2 seperate peaks large number of trophies is worse than tefel and oz
Naniwa's dual hots finals vs life and leenock and his dual mlgs were way less impressive than incontrol going 0-7 in an mlg pool
My list is definitely weighted towards active players, as I believe longevity is important in success. Mvp is GOAT solely on the fact that he was the first 'Best in the World' and history counts (similar to how BoxeR is considered a GOAT). soO at #2 is due to his ridiculous consistency to compete at a high level.
So weighted towards active players you have Zest twice.
As opposed to a lot of people who don't even have him in once, which is just as absurd.
Obviously it's all subjective. But I do think Zest is the obvious pick as #1 protoss. I don't see any reason to put another above him, or have him missing on a top 10 list. His 2014 might be the best year of any player to date, except Mvp's 2011 depending on how you look at it.
Both MC and Parting had longer eras. e.g. bOth of them getting into RO8 when BL infestor was in its prime. While Zest is in the top5 of all time for sure, it's hard. MC & Parting have earlier starts which gives them the advantage and Parting was a beast even when Zest was around. Then it's just subjective how do you rank sOs, Zest, Parting, MC and Stats. And since this is about 10 players only 3 of them can get in.
And while Zest has the nicest body of them all, MC has better singing and probably all of them have better macro than Zest.
In my case it's personal feelings, MC gave me mothersip, 4 carriers, templars, 2-4 colossi & void ray composition to fight BL infestor(it worked quite nicely on most of the maps), Parting gave me the Templar opening. Rain gave me turtle-toss. Zest is a really beautiful dude, but that's not enough for me
I love PartinG and he's my favourite protoss of all time but he just doesn't have the results to justify putting him in the top 10.
Zest cannot be compared to Parting. You're talking about someone who's never won in Korea vs someone who holds the record for Protoss GSLs (tied with MC if you don't count Global Ch.), the record for most KR championships won by Protoss overall, and the longest and highest peak of any Protoss in the game. Sorry but there's no justifiable argument to put Parting above Zest.
I disagree with Zest having the highest peak of any Protoss in the game. Best protoss career? Sure. but Zest's 2 GSLs in 2014 were literally won on the back of PvPs and PvsoO. You know Zest well and he's always been great at PvP, one other MU and sucks at the third one. Zest usually peaks when Protoss does well in general, partly because there's higher chance for him to play PvP in the playoffs. To me Zest's successful career is the combination of excellent control, killer mentality and luck, but he never strikes me as the most impressive Protoss ever and there are a lot of reasons to put other Protosses above him. To me it's not Parting but Rain.
Personally I don't need a player to win championships to impress me. To me Stats showed the best performance in IEM Katowice 2017 by far, for example. And I never get that people want soO to win that much since he already proved himself a hundred times over. OTOH MC had an extremely successful career and a great personality but his game is far from top 5 protoss of all time.
Life has disgraced the game and thus doesn't belong on the list /s. Naniwa is a jerk and only gets a penalty :D
If anything these rankings have shown me that the reason people do not put Life as the GOAT is because he did a baddy.
On March 21 2018 08:05 pvsnp wrote: GOAT is one of those subjective things that everyone thinks is different. Getting the community to agree on one GOAT is next to impossible without overwhelming evidence in a single player's favor. To raise one player above all others demands a feat no other player can equal. Anything less is merely quibbling over semantics.
That being said, everyone can count big shiny trophies and from that simplest of criteria alone we can restrict the list of GOAT contenders to Mvp, Life, Taeja, and Inno. The next-simplest criteria is to look at the quality of those big shiny trophies, namely Korean and foreign tournaments, Starleagues and weekenders. From that we can eliminate Life and Taeja, and hence we are left with only Mvp and Inno.
Mvp and Inno are the only two players to have won 4 GSLs apiece (among many other trophies), and as such both are the only two to come within striking distance of the legendary G5L. To claim that trophy of trophies would indeed be a feat no other player can equal.
Succinctly put, he who claims the G5L claims the crown of GOAT.
That's because you place Blizzcon as a mere Weekender international event. Sure it has gotten weaker over time now that only 9 Koreans get to place in the top 16, but that doesn't take away that it's still the most prestigeous event to win, it heralds the player as the World Champion. Every player will try to hit their peak skill at this time, it's seen from the last two. ByuN wins GSL then goes on to win WCS, Rogue wins GSL then goes on to win WCS. That's not to mention that the ones that sOs and Life won back in the day at most had 1 foreigner. GSL should be regarded highly, but what we always see from these events is that the weekend tournament winners do really well. TaeJa slays SoO just like he was any other player. Life slays Zest. sOs who still never seems to win GSL slays whichever 'big favourites' are there.
Life vs TaeJa was the highest tier rivalry that we've had and that happened in weekenders mostly, but Life also translated that to GSL, beating the likes of Parting, which was also one of the highest peak finals ever. Nowadays it's mostly who gets the opposite side of the SoO bracket and defeats him in the finals. I do think however, that it's likely Rogue has reached a peak greater than what we've seen before.
In my opinion it's actually not even close between Life and MVP. MVP only really 'dominated' one installment of the game and people act like he grabbed the scene by an iron grip, but back then it never felt like that. There were always real contenders like MMA, DongRaeGu, MC and even Life defeated him in the finals being a Royal Roader at only 15 years of age. Not to mention that in the start there were many invite tournaments and GSL had a real shitty format where it was almost impossible to drop out of GSL even though you did really bad. MVP was always on the verge of dropping out, it was kinda like Incontrol at MLG's lol. There were also many more GSL's and until SlayerZ came along it was mostly just Nestea+MVP in the same house having a better understanding of the game than their peers, like when real b tier Koreans in the start of WoL kept taking internationals from white guys simply because they had actual refined Korean made builds. I think it's very hard to argue who is higher now on the list, between MVP and INnoVation, but Life should be the undisputed GOAT.
On March 21 2018 08:05 pvsnp wrote: GOAT is one of those subjective things that everyone thinks is different. Getting the community to agree on one GOAT is next to impossible without overwhelming evidence in a single player's favor. To raise one player above all others demands a feat no other player can equal. Anything less is merely quibbling over semantics.
That being said, everyone can count big shiny trophies and from that simplest of criteria alone we can restrict the list of GOAT contenders to Mvp, Life, Taeja, and Inno. The next-simplest criteria is to look at the quality of those big shiny trophies, namely Korean and foreign tournaments, Starleagues and weekenders. From that we can eliminate Life and Taeja, and hence we are left with only Mvp and Inno.
Mvp and Inno are the only two players to have won 4 GSLs apiece (among many other trophies), and as such both are the only two to come within striking distance of the legendary G5L. To claim that trophy of trophies would indeed be a feat no other player can equal.
Succinctly put, he who claims the G5L claims the crown of GOAT.
That's because you place Blizzcon as a mere Weekender international event. Sure it has gotten weaker over time now that only 9 Koreans get to place in the top 16, but that doesn't take away that it's still the most prestigeous event to win, it heralds the player as the World Champion. Every player will try to hit their peak skill at this time, it's seen from the last two. ByuN wins GSL then goes on to win WCS, Rogue wins GSL then goes on to win WCS. That's not to mention that the ones that sOs and Life won back in the day at most had 1 foreigner. GSL should be regarded highly, but what we always see from these events is that the weekend tournament winners do really well. TaeJa slays SoO just like he was any other player. Life slays Zest. sOs who still never seems to win GSL slays whichever 'big favourites' are there.
Life vs TaeJa was the highest tier rivalry that we've had and that happened in weekenders mostly, but Life also translated that to GSL, beating the likes of Parting, which was also one of the highest peak finals ever. Nowadays it's mostly who gets the opposite side of the SoO bracket and defeats him in the finals. I do think however, that it's likely Rogue has reached a peak greater than what we've seen before.
In my opinion it's actually not even close between Life and MVP. MVP only really 'dominated' one installment of the game and people act like he grabbed the scene by an iron grip, but back then it never felt like that. There were always real contenders like MMA, DongRaeGu, MC and even Life defeated him in the finals being a Royal Roader at only 15 years of age. Not to mention that in the start there were many invite tournaments and GSL had a real shitty format where it was almost impossible to drop out of GSL even though you did really bad. MVP was always on the verge of dropping out, it was kinda like Incontrol at MLG's lol. There were also many more GSL's and until SlayerZ came along it was mostly just Nestea+MVP in the same house having a better understanding of the game than their peers, like when real b tier Koreans in the start of WoL kept taking internationals from white guys simply because they had actual refined Korean made builds. I think it's very hard to argue who is higher now on the list, between MVP and INnoVation, but Life should be the undisputed GOAT.
That's some way of rewriting history. Go watch the finals between Mvp and Life again, Mvp was ahead of Life strategically in every single step in those games, he was by far the smarter player on that day, but unfortunately his wrists were gangbanged enough that the mechanical handicap became too big.There's no doubt in my mind that a healthier Mvp would've wrecked Life without much effort.
To make my list I wanted to avoid my own biases as much as possible so I went through Liquipedia and assigned values to top 4 appearances in every premier tournament (and top 8 for Code S or Global Finals) including the most recent Code S finals. Of course, the prestige of every premier tournament is not equal, so the points weren’t weighted equally (Code S and Global Finals > SSL > WCS > IEM > DH, MLG, etc.) with some subjectivity involved in which tournaments fell in which category.
Of course this isn’t a perfect system…perhaps I placed some tournaments in the wrong categories, and maybe some categories receive too many or too few points, it doesn’t take into account the relative skill level of the players (we typically assume that overall the scene improves in skill over time), and it doesn’t reward players from developing new strategies or revolutionizing the meta (at least not beyond assuming those players would win premier tournaments). Based on the limited time, however, this is probably the best I could do.
Feel free to offer any comments on whether or not you think my framework was fair (it did produce some surprising results (see #2 overall and the lack of NesTea): GSL/Global Finals: 250; 175; 100; 50 SSL/OSL: 200; 100; 50 WCS/IEM Katowice: 150; 75; 30 IEM: 100; 50; 25 DreamHack/MLG/etc.: 75; 40; 20 Other: 50; 25; 10 *10 additional points were awarded to a 3rd place finish while the 4th place received the listed value
One last note before my list and that is on the big elephant in the room while making one of these lists “Should Life be included in this list?” My natural inclination is that yes of course he should because he was one of the greatest players of all time and was undoubtedly the best aggressive zerg ever and given my points system he comes in at #3. However, after talking with a few of my friends I decided that he should not be included. If we think of this list as a Hall of Fame for Starcraft, it should be held to a high standard like a professional sports hall of fame, for example the Baseball Hall of Fame. In the case of baseball, I don’t want anyone who used performance enhancing drugs to be inducted, and Pete Rose, who has the all-time hits record, is excluded because he gambled on major league games. Pete Rose’s situation is most analogous to Life’s (though Rose’s betting occurred when he was a coach rather than a player), and so this “Hall of Fame of Starcraft” should be held to a high standard and thus I excluded Life from my list.
Now on to the list: 1) INnoVation (2265 points) 2) MC (2045 points) 3) Mvp (1980 points) 4) MMA (1925 points) 5) sOs (1780 points) 6) Polt (1685 points) 7) TaeJa (1670 points) 8) PartinG (1630 points) 9) Maru (1590 points) 10) soO (1570 points)
On April 01 2018 09:32 invisigoat wrote: Now on to the list: 1) INnoVation (2265 points) 2) MC (2045 points) 3) Mvp (1980 points) 4) MMA (1925 points) 5) sOs (1780 points) 6) Polt (1685 points) 7) TaeJa (1670 points) 8) PartinG (1630 points) 9) Maru (1590 points) 10) soO (1570 points)
This has got to be the most objective and accurate list...
Accurate is up for debate, but there's no arguing against a point system such as the one he defined being the most consistently objective way to approach GOAT rankings.
Certainly every player on that list is one of the all-time greats, so he's doing something right.
On April 04 2018 13:09 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Forgot this was a thing. Time to bump Maru up a notch
Pls don't edit your list past the deadline. I realize that the timing was kinda bad with the GSL finals coming up shortly before the deadline but now there's nothing we can do about it. Just take Maru's ranking in the final list with a grain of salt.
Results are there! This turned out pretty decent I'd say. The biggest surprise for me was how underrated herO is. Maru obviously would be higher if the GSL finals would be included. Also kinda surprised that soO is so high.
I think the list as it stands, that is the one the main OP as of this moment, is quite solid. In my own one I didn't mention that I ranked it based on number of GSLs won for the most part, along with other tournament success (triple crown, success over time/longevity). This wasn't infallible and I did let some shameful personal bias get in the way (I have no excuse) :/.
On April 08 2018 06:01 starkiller123 wrote: NesTea at 10 is way too high, he was only good for one year which should not get him anywhere near top 10
I think there's something to be said for being a pioneer when a games pro scene is young . The players that do well at this stage often have a diffrent set of skills than those that do well later on. I think that in the early life of sc2 players who were strategically innovative were a lot more powerful than they are today, you still see smart players like rouge and sos do well today but they are more about doing builds that abuse the meta than totally altering it.
Granted if you took any player in the gsl today and sent them in a time machine back to the Early GSL I'm prity sure they would at least make round of 4, and if you took nearly any round of 16 player today they would stomp the likes of fruit dealer, MC, and nestea, maybe MVP would be able to put up a fight though but I'm pretty sure that the level of players today is just a lot higher than back than.
But I think there's something to be said for the innovators who solved various problems in the meta to win an early gsl, it was awe inspiring to watch how nestea was able to show us the power of a Zerg who can hold any Allin thrown his way in a tournament that was defined by 2 rax allins on imbalanced small maps. It was amazing to watch how the finals between marine king and MVP redifined the way that tvt was played. I loved this early period in sc2s life span, maybe not always as a player there were a lot of bad maps and overpowered allins on them but as a spectator it was great.
Nestea wasn't only good in 2011.. First one of his GSL wins was 2010. He was also still extremely good in 2012 just choked a few times but he was still a top 3 zerg for all but the end of that year. If IPL4 was spaced out a little more he probably would have won that tournament. He would also have had even better GSL results in 2011 if the brackets didn't keep pairing him and MVP up before the finals. With better brackets half the finals that year would have been Nestea vs MVP. He definitely deserves his place on this list.
I waited until the thread finished with the poll to say I think it's wrong that Life was included in this. Frankly, I'm surprised people felt okay voting for him. His championships were taken away. He has no GSLs. Ignoring the cheating part, the mere fact that his trophies between blizzcon and GSL were taken away means that he has no accomplishments. He was a good starcraft player but lacks what is required to be called greatest.
I mean i can understand that it might seem silly to call a matchfixer "greatest player", there are different approaches to this though. Some people would definitely say that the negative impact he had on the sc2 scene makes him not worth to even consider for the goat position, others (and i fall into that category) really only look at the gameplay side of things.
On April 09 2018 05:47 Poopi wrote: Doesn't matter that he got his trophies taken away, he still won the tournaments.
Plus zergs used to believe in him to win, and he delivered unlike Dark.
I personally think it's embarrassing that as a community everyone decided he should be on the list. As someone who has live through both SC1 and SC2 eras Life and Savior just don't deserve to be on these lists.
On April 09 2018 05:47 Poopi wrote: Doesn't matter that he got his trophies taken away, he still won the tournaments.
Plus zergs used to believe in him to win, and he delivered unlike Dark.
I personally think it's embarrassing that as a community everyone decided he should be on the list. As someone who has live through both SC1 and SC2 eras Life and Savior just don't deserve to be on these lists.
I always found it interesting how there seems to be a strong correlation between investment in the scene, and hardline stances against matchfixing (particularly Life). On one end of the spectrum there are casual fans who ask why Life isn't around anymore and how nice it would be to see him play, vs the other end of grizzled veterans who think any mention of Life should be redacted posthaste. Greater familiarity breeds greater hostility.
And of course at the furthest end, the Korean pros–his former friends and compatriots–refuse to so much as speak his name.
On April 09 2018 05:47 Poopi wrote: Doesn't matter that he got his trophies taken away, he still won the tournaments.
Plus zergs used to believe in him to win, and he delivered unlike Dark.
I personally think it's embarrassing that as a community everyone decided he should be on the list. As someone who has live through both SC1 and SC2 eras Life and Savior just don't deserve to be on these lists.
I always found it interesting how there seems to be a strong correlation between investment in the scene, and hardline stances against matchfixing (particularly Life). On one end of the spectrum there are casual fans who ask why Life isn't around anymore and how nice it would be to see him play, vs the other end of grizzled veterans who think any mention of Life should be redacted posthaste. Greater familiarity breeds greater hostility.
And of course at the furthest end, the Korean pros–his former friends and compatriots–refuse to so much as speak his name.
I don't think it's hostility at all. If organizers involved gave either players a chance to redeem themselves, I wouldn't be picking up a pitch fork. But they are still held responsible for their actions at the time they were active
On April 09 2018 05:47 Poopi wrote: Doesn't matter that he got his trophies taken away, he still won the tournaments.
Plus zergs used to believe in him to win, and he delivered unlike Dark.
I personally think it's embarrassing that as a community everyone decided he should be on the list. As someone who has live through both SC1 and SC2 eras Life and Savior just don't deserve to be on these lists.
Also agreed I can admire their play but they don't deserve to be on any goat lists. I wouldn't say it's embarrassing to admire their play though. That may be a tad harsh
On April 09 2018 05:41 BisuDagger wrote: I waited until the thread finished with the poll to say I think it's wrong that Life was included in this. Frankly, I'm surprised people felt okay voting for him. His championships were taken away. He has no GSLs. Ignoring the cheating part, the mere fact that his trophies between blizzcon and GSL were taken away means that he has no accomplishments. He was a good starcraft player but lacks what is required to be called greatest.
Savior is still considered a Bonjwa despite getting all his trophies taken away too. Bonjwa
@BisuDagger Taking the victories away Life undoubtetly had, makes it impossible to be kind of objective with such lists - for me at least. If I do so, I have to consider who I think is more likable for whatever reason. So I have to decide: do I want to have a list of players with a summation of different factors (success, innovation, coolness, creativity, fairplay, deep thinking, funniness, community interaction...) or of players who are really good at starcraft 2? I think that most people opted for the second. If we want a list without life, an exclusion of life would've to be determined in the beginning.
Also I think, it turned out quite well. Life isn't near the first place pointwise and that's definitely because of people excluding him due to his damnable matchfixing. So he'll never be able to win such a voting because of his actions.
On April 09 2018 18:39 fronkschnonk wrote: @BisuDagger Taking the victories away Life undoubtetly had, makes it impossible to be kind of objective with such lists - for me at least. If I do so, I have to consider who I think is more likable for whatever reason. So I have to decide: do I want to have a list of players with a summation of different factors (success, innovation, coolness, creativity, fairplay, deep thinking, funniness, community interaction...) or of players who are really good at starcraft 2? I think that most people opted for the second. If we want a list without life, an exclusion of life would've to be determined in the beginning.
Also I think, it turned out quite well. Life isn't near the first place pointwise and that's definitely because of people excluding him due to his damnable matchfixing. So he'll never be able to win such a voting because of his actions.
That's a pretty reasonable way of looking at it. I'd like to see a list based on scenario one. It sounds like we would get a fun list.
1) TaeJa bias - really no words towards this... The guy was decent but top 30 at most. But hell, its teamliquid, mmkay :/ 2) Too much nostalgia - Players such as NesTea and MC are nowhere near top 10.
Also Inno and soO are too high but that is to be expected they have huge fanbase.
Otherwise good list, I actually expected it to be worse, like TaeJa at 2nd, Life not making top 10 or something in that regard lol
I can agree to this ranking, sad to see MVP lose out, but I guess innovation accomplished a bit more.
What surprised me, is the balance: 4Terrans, 3 Protoss, 3 Zerg which in my opinion is really nice and shows that every race is able to do well over a longer period of time or they wouldn't have been elected in GOAT ranking
On April 09 2018 19:53 Philozovic wrote: Sure 11 premiers and 25 top 4 is top30 at most 3 GSL top 8 in a row 2 GSL top 4 Positive record against both Inno and Life
Ya right, 11 Premier :D The fact that TL fanboys call something a premier tournament does not make it an actual premier tournament. Taeja has 0 Tier 1 tournament wins. Z E R O. This senseless bias is one of the funniest things on TL ))
On April 09 2018 19:53 Philozovic wrote: Sure 11 premiers and 25 top 4 is top30 at most 3 GSL top 8 in a row 2 GSL top 4 Positive record against both Inno and Life
Ya right, 11 Premier :D The fact that TL fanboys call something a premier tournament does not make it an actual premier tournament. Taeja has 0 Tier 1 tournament wins. Z E R O. This senseless bias is one of the funniest things on TL ))
And i thought i am one of the most critical people when it comes to taeja, well you are just a hater so i guess it is still true :D I completely agree that weekenders are not the same tier as starleagues, but taeja was an excellent player and the sheer number of high place finishes at these weekenders surely makes him one of the best players ever. Yes the lvl of competition at weekenders was lower, noticeably so in fact. But especially in the later rounds you still had to beat the likes of Life, Zest or other top koreans. "top 30 at most" is incredibly ridiculous and based on nothing but hate (something other people would say about my taeja criticism as well :D) Ok i defended Taeja in a goat discussion, there's always a first.
INnoVation narrowly edges out Mvp for GOAT. InnoVation's peak in 2017 was undeniable. soO above Life when you consider the entire body of work of the course of their career. Maru is the 3rd best Terran of all time. TaeJa rounds out the top 10.
On April 09 2018 19:53 Philozovic wrote: Sure 11 premiers and 25 top 4 is top30 at most 3 GSL top 8 in a row 2 GSL top 4 Positive record against both Inno and Life
Ya right, 11 Premier :D The fact that TL fanboys call something a premier tournament does not make it an actual premier tournament. Taeja has 0 Tier 1 tournament wins. Z E R O. This senseless bias is one of the funniest things on TL ))
And i thought i am one of the most critical people when it comes to taeja, well you are just a hater so i guess it is still true :D I completely agree that weekenders are not the same tier as starleagues, but taeja was an excellent player and the sheer number of high place finishes at these weekenders surely makes him one of the best players ever. Yes the lvl of competition at weekenders was lower, noticeably so in fact. But especially in the later rounds you still had to beat the likes of Life, Zest or other top koreans. "top 30 at most" is incredibly ridiculous and based on nothing but hate (something other people would say about my taeja criticism as well :D) Ok i defended Taeja in a goat discussion, there's always a first.
It is true though. Taeja never won a top tier tournament. He's shown me potential. I would put him top 15, not top 10. That said, had he stayed in Korea, I believe he would develop into a top 10 player. He chose more opportunities overseas and I understand that. But you can't have it both ways.
Pre 2013 Korean competition is also quite a bit weaker than afterwards. You have the like of Symbol, Seed, jjakji winning GSLs. Weak competition makes MC and Nestea less impressive in hindsight. You have to give Nestea credit for figuring out the game when the game was being figured out. Great innovator, but he should not be in GOAT discussion.
Pains me to say it, especially with how much I tried to hang on the Nestea train back in the day but he doesn't deserve the top 10 spot if I'm being fair. He's perhaps the most impactful Zerg player ever in terms of innovation, but Nestea's downfall on the GOAT list is a strong lack of longevity compared to the players he's competing with. I paid such close attention to Nestea that I can even pinpoint his last great tournament which was Iron Squid II way back in January of 2013. After that is was nonstop Zergbong shit that continued to wound my heart.
No idea at all why Rogue is even an honorable mention xD. He's looking like a worthy successor to Life in that he can actually win tournaments (ByuL, soO, Dark, I'm looking at you...), but at this time he simply doesn't have nearly enough to be competitive in the GOAT runnings. He's like Taeja but with way less accolades to cover his lack of starleague titles.
INnoVation narrowly edges out Mvp for GOAT. InnoVation's peak in 2017 was undeniable. soO above Life when you consider the entire body of work of the course of their career. Maru is the 3rd best Terran of all time. TaeJa rounds out the top 10.
How do you put soO above Life? Life won multiple GSLs and Blizzcon. soO does have an impressive record, but being able to finish off tournaments should weigh heavily. Life also got a lot of second places.
On April 10 2018 14:26 Ej_ wrote: Symbol never won a GSL In fact, his only GSL final was after KeSPA switched over
brood lord vs. brood lord, never forget
It was during BLinfestor era... I remember well, iNno was with taeja one the only terran that can really compete with zerg in late game. ro8 Symbol took him with dirty tactics, taeja survived Soulkey and keep up the light, but in the end Roro just broke him in semis
Symbol vs Roro, just when i thought I could never see a worse GSL final than Hyun vs Sniper...
INnoVation narrowly edges out Mvp for GOAT. InnoVation's peak in 2017 was undeniable. soO above Life when you consider the entire body of work of the course of their career. Maru is the 3rd best Terran of all time. TaeJa rounds out the top 10.
How do you put soO above Life? Life won multiple GSLs and Blizzcon. soO does have an impressive record, but being able to finish off tournaments should weigh heavily. Life also got a lot of second places.
Life also single-handedly destroyed the Kespa scene. (Overstatement, but he did serious damage to SC)
INnoVation narrowly edges out Mvp for GOAT. InnoVation's peak in 2017 was undeniable. soO above Life when you consider the entire body of work of the course of their career. Maru is the 3rd best Terran of all time. TaeJa rounds out the top 10.
How do you put soO above Life? Life won multiple GSLs and Blizzcon. soO does have an impressive record, but being able to finish off tournaments should weigh heavily. Life also got a lot of second places.
Life also single-handedly destroyed the Kespa scene. (Overstatement, but he did serious damage to SC)
I wasn't aware this ranking would consider stuff like that.
On April 10 2018 15:27 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Fairly good list.
Pains me to say it, especially with how much I tried to hang on the Nestea train back in the day but he doesn't deserve the top 10 spot if I'm being fair. He's perhaps the most impactful Zerg player ever in terms of innovation, but Nestea's downfall on the GOAT list is a strong lack of longevity compared to the players he's competing with. I paid such close attention to Nestea that I can even pinpoint his last great tournament which was Iron Squid II way back in January of 2013. After that is was nonstop Zergbong shit that continued to wound my heart.
No idea at all why Rogue is even an honorable mention xD. He's looking like a worthy successor to Life in that he can actually win tournaments (ByuL, soO, Dark, I'm looking at you...), but at this time he simply doesn't have nearly enough to be competitive in the GOAT runnings. He's like Taeja but with way less accolades to cover his lack of starleague titles.
Depends on how you weigh tournaments. Personally, I would weigh Blizzcon quite heavily above all other tournaments though that's just a personal preference. Also Rogue might not be top tier since recently but if you look at dominance it is quite horrifying: He won all his trophies in the last half year. (I think 4). That's just insane.
INnoVation narrowly edges out Mvp for GOAT. InnoVation's peak in 2017 was undeniable. soO above Life when you consider the entire body of work of the course of their career. Maru is the 3rd best Terran of all time. TaeJa rounds out the top 10.
How do you put soO above Life? Life won multiple GSLs and Blizzcon. soO does have an impressive record, but being able to finish off tournaments should weigh heavily. Life also got a lot of second places.
Life also single-handedly destroyed the Kespa scene. (Overstatement, but he did serious damage to SC)
I wasn't aware this ranking would consider stuff like that.
I would. Because when you are talking GOAT it's not just the results that one should consider. Greatness is subjective anyway
On April 11 2018 01:18 TheEarthBerry wrote: So sad Life did what he did. I believe he would have been the best player in addition to the greatest. That said: Terran forever <3
But I'm not knowledgeable enough to make a list like this. Good initiative though!
If Life was still around, would we see soO or Dark gets the achievements that they did?
On April 09 2018 19:53 Philozovic wrote: Sure 11 premiers and 25 top 4 is top30 at most 3 GSL top 8 in a row 2 GSL top 4 Positive record against both Inno and Life
Ya right, 11 Premier :D The fact that TL fanboys call something a premier tournament does not make it an actual premier tournament. Taeja has 0 Tier 1 tournament wins. Z E R O. This senseless bias is one of the funniest things on TL ))
And i thought i am one of the most critical people when it comes to taeja, well you are just a hater so i guess it is still true :D I completely agree that weekenders are not the same tier as starleagues, but taeja was an excellent player and the sheer number of high place finishes at these weekenders surely makes him one of the best players ever. Yes the lvl of competition at weekenders was lower, noticeably so in fact. But especially in the later rounds you still had to beat the likes of Life, Zest or other top koreans. "top 30 at most" is incredibly ridiculous and based on nothing but hate (something other people would say about my taeja criticism as well :D) Ok i defended Taeja in a goat discussion, there's always a first.
Yeah... wtf did I just read.. viper showing taeja love
On April 11 2018 01:18 TheEarthBerry wrote: So sad Life did what he did. I believe he would have been the best player in addition to the greatest. That said: Terran forever <3
But I'm not knowledgeable enough to make a list like this. Good initiative though!
If Life was still around, would we see soO or Dark gets the achievements that they did?
I don't know Life had an iron grip on the zerg race, but considering Dark and SoO are kongs. I'd say yeah they would probably still be getting second.
TBH for me GOAT is a player that dominated the period where game was played at highest level - which for me is ~4 years starting with first non-hybrid proleague and ending around the time when most of KeSPA teams disbanded.
Zest dominated that period.
Mvp dominated during infancy and he wasn't untouchable by any mean being challenged by NesTea in first part and then MMA (and NaNiwa :D) in second.
On April 11 2018 16:22 nimdil wrote: TBH for me GOAT is a player that dominated the period where game was played at highest level - which for me is ~4 years starting with first non-hybrid proleague and ending around the time when most of KeSPA teams disbanded.
Zest dominated that period.
Mvp dominated during infancy and he wasn't untouchable by any mean being challenged by NesTea in first part and then MMA (and NaNiwa :D) in second.
On April 11 2018 01:18 TheEarthBerry wrote: So sad Life did what he did. I believe he would have been the best player in addition to the greatest. That said: Terran forever <3
But I'm not knowledgeable enough to make a list like this. Good initiative though!
If Life was still around, would we see soO or Dark gets the achievements that they did?
Probably. Life had his share of lull periods where other Zergs had to sub for him.
On April 11 2018 16:22 nimdil wrote: TBH for me GOAT is a player that dominated the period where game was played at highest level - which for me is ~4 years starting with first non-hybrid proleague and ending around the time when most of KeSPA teams disbanded.
Zest dominated that period.
Mvp dominated during infancy and he wasn't untouchable by any mean being challenged by NesTea in first part and then MMA (and NaNiwa :D) in second.
even Olli didn't pu Zest in his top 3.
Olli took the whole SC2 history into account, whereas I determined when and where SC2 was played at its peak and used other periods only as a tie breaker.
On April 09 2018 18:39 fronkschnonk wrote: @BisuDagger Taking the victories away Life undoubtetly had, makes it impossible to be kind of objective with such lists - for me at least. If I do so, I have to consider who I think is more likable for whatever reason. So I have to decide: do I want to have a list of players with a summation of different factors (success, innovation, coolness, creativity, fairplay, deep thinking, funniness, community interaction...) or of players who are really good at starcraft 2? I think that most people opted for the second. If we want a list without life, an exclusion of life would've to be determined in the beginning.
Also I think, it turned out quite well. Life isn't near the first place pointwise and that's definitely because of people excluding him due to his damnable matchfixing. So he'll never be able to win such a voting because of his actions.
That's a pretty reasonable way of looking at it. I'd like to see a list based on scenario one. It sounds like we would get a fun list.
On April 11 2018 16:22 nimdil wrote: TBH for me GOAT is a player that dominated the period where game was played at highest level - which for me is ~4 years starting with first non-hybrid proleague and ending around the time when most of KeSPA teams disbanded.
Zest dominated that period.
Mvp dominated during infancy and he wasn't untouchable by any mean being challenged by NesTea in first part and then MMA (and NaNiwa :D) in second.
On April 11 2018 16:22 nimdil wrote: TBH for me GOAT is a player that dominated the period where game was played at highest level - which for me is ~4 years starting with first non-hybrid proleague and ending around the time when most of KeSPA teams disbanded.
Zest dominated that period.
Mvp dominated during infancy and he wasn't untouchable by any mean being challenged by NesTea in first part and then MMA (and NaNiwa :D) in second.
even Olli didn't pu Zest in his top 3.
Olli took the whole SC2 history into account, whereas I determined when and where SC2 was played at its peak and used other periods only as a tie breaker.
Winning European titles does not GOAT make.
I can't think of a fairer top 3 than one including Mvp Life and INno. Plenty of Starleagues and weekender. INno ans Life dominated through different meta, which is really impressive.
On April 11 2018 16:22 nimdil wrote: TBH for me GOAT is a player that dominated the period where game was played at highest level - which for me is ~4 years starting with first non-hybrid proleague and ending around the time when most of KeSPA teams disbanded.
Zest dominated that period.
Mvp dominated during infancy and he wasn't untouchable by any mean being challenged by NesTea in first part and then MMA (and NaNiwa :D) in second.
Well that solves it boys, Zest dominated a year of WoL, ALL of HotS, and a year of LotV. Walk away, we found the GOAT.
On April 11 2018 16:22 nimdil wrote: TBH for me GOAT is a player that dominated the period where game was played at highest level - which for me is ~4 years starting with first non-hybrid proleague and ending around the time when most of KeSPA teams disbanded.
Zest dominated that period.
Mvp dominated during infancy and he wasn't untouchable by any mean being challenged by NesTea in first part and then MMA (and NaNiwa :D) in second.
Well that solves it boys, Zest dominated a year of WoL, ALL of HotS, and a year of LotV. Walk away, we found the GOAT.
On April 11 2018 16:22 nimdil wrote: TBH for me GOAT is a player that dominated the period where game was played at highest level - which for me is ~4 years starting with first non-hybrid proleague and ending around the time when most of KeSPA teams disbanded.
Zest dominated that period.
Mvp dominated during infancy and he wasn't untouchable by any mean being challenged by NesTea in first part and then MMA (and NaNiwa :D) in second.
even Olli didn't pu Zest in his top 3.
Olli took the whole SC2 history into account, whereas I determined when and where SC2 was played at its peak and used other periods only as a tie breaker.
Winning European titles does not GOAT make.
Even under those conditions (quarter 3ish WoL - mid 2016) Zest doesn't deserve #1 at all. Life easily has him beat and you could even argue for Maru and Taeja (he had 2 semifinal GSL runs near the end of WoL! Come at me!) as well.
Also, no, Mvp wasn't totally untouchable during his most dominant year (2011), but he was far more dominant than Zest. If we're splitting hairs here, Zest had a critical weakness in PvT that fortunately for him didn't get exposed that much thanks to the blink era.
I made a chart listing who how often got voted for which place. It's quite interesting. I excluded posts that oviously didn't consider skill as a factor at all (only/mostly foreigner posts, only/mosty lowlevel koreans).
Ranking by how often the players got into the list at all: + Show Spoiler +
Trivia, weird occurances and more or less baffling consensus
The first 4 pages featured a neck-and-neck race between INnoVation and Lifefor First place (with Inno being mostly in the lead) but then nostalgists stepped in and Mvp passed them while Life got left somewhat behind (perhaps due to the upcoming discussion about him?).
As assumed Life's scandal did not only cost him many points but also made him lack behind Inno and Mvp for 1st and 2nd place because of being excluded from the list relatively often. The race seems a bit closer if you multiply the average points of each player with Inno's 63 appearances (I took the players of the original ranking for this list): + Show Spoiler +
1. Inno (8,5079365079*63=536) 2. Mvp (8,4166666667*63=530,25) 3. Life (8,1320754717*63=512,320754717) 4. soO (5,9464285714*63=374,625) 5. sOs (5,9433962264*63=374,4339622642) 6. MC (4,975*63=313,425) 7. TaeJa (4,5217391304*63=284,8695652174) 8. Maru (4,475*63=281,925) 9. Zest (4,3157894737*63=271,8947368421) 10. NesTea (4,2173913043*63=265,6956521739)
NesTea and sOs are the only players who got voted for for every rank.
soO and TaeJa also got votes for every rank - with an exception: voters consensually thought that they can't be ranked higher than 2nd place.
TaeJa and Maru seem to be the most controversial players, getting votes very spread out over all ranks. Considering Maru's recent GSL championship he now probably wouldn't be in this situation anymore.
With 17 votes sOs is kind of weirdly agreed on to be 6th place. At least he is kind of in the middle with also quite many votes vor 4th (9) and 5th (11)
Considering only the number of getting ranked top10 there could be made a cut after 9th place for the GOAT-discussion. NesTea got ranked only 23 times while Zest got ranked 38 times. That's a difference of 15 times. The biggest difference within the top9 is 7.
On April 12 2018 06:33 fronkschnonk wrote: I made a chart listing who how often got voted for which place. It's quite interesting. I excluded posts that oviously didn't consider skill as a factor at all (only/mostly foreigner posts, only/mosty lowlevel koreans).
Ranking by how often the players got into the list at all: + Show Spoiler +
Trivia, weird occurances and more or less baffling consensus
The first 4 pages featured a neck-and-neck race between INnoVation and Lifefor First place (with Inno being mostly in the lead) but then nostalgists stepped in and Mvp passed them while Life got left somewhat behind (perhaps due to the upcoming discussion about him?).
As assumed Life's scandal did not only cost him many points but also made him lack behind Inno and Mvp for 1st and 2nd place because of being excluded from the list relatively often. The race seems a bit closer if you multiply the average points of each player with Inno's 63 appearances (I took the players of the original ranking for this list): + Show Spoiler +
1. Inno (8,5079365079*63=536) 2. Mvp (8,4166666667*63=530,25) 3. Life (8,1320754717*63=512,320754717) 4. soO (5,9464285714*63=374,625) 5. sOs (5,9433962264*63=374,4339622642) 6. MC (4,975*63=313,425) 7. TaeJa (4,5217391304*63=284,8695652174) 8. Maru (4,475*63=281,925) 9. Zest (4,3157894737*63=271,8947368421) 10. NesTea (4,2173913043*63=265,6956521739)
NesTea and sOs are the only players who got voted for for every rank.
soO and TaeJa also got votes for every rank - with an exception: voters consensually thought that they can't be ranked higher than 2nd place.
TaeJa and Maru seem to be the most controversial players, getting votes very spread out over all ranks. Considering Maru's recent GSL championship he now probably wouldn't be in this situation anymore.
With 17 votes sOs is kind of weirdly agreed on to be 6th place. At least he is kind of in the middle with also quite many votes vor 4th (9) and 5th (11)
Considering only the number of getting ranked top10 there could be made a cut after 9th place for the GOAT-discussion. NesTea got ranked only 23 times while Zest got ranked 38 times. That's a difference of 15 times. The biggest difference within the top9 is 7.
Thank you for elaborating on the ranking!
You show quite clearly that INnoVation is the community's favourite. sOs stays true to his reputation of being able to get any place.
One essential thing people aren't considering is that during Mvp's era sc2 was peaking, everyone was trying hard, the game was huge and viewer numbers were very high with lots of tournaments, so the argument that it wasn't as competitive back then because the game was young gets mostly nullified, if anything it was harder because of how popular the game was, the harsh truth is that almost nobody gives a shit for years now.
On May 01 2018 00:34 IshinShishi wrote: One essential thing people aren't considering is that during Mvp's era sc2 was peaking, everyone was trying hard, the game was huge and viewer numbers were very high with lots of tournaments, so the argument that it wasn't as competitive back then because the game was young gets mostly nullified, if anything it was harder because of how popular the game was, the harsh truth is that almost nobody gives a shit for years now.
Pretty much- people who started watching after 2012 don't really understand that a GSL today is about half or a third of a GSL from 2011- if you slipped up you had to fight through Code A to get back into Code S, and qualifying in the first place meant battling through a big single elimination bracket, not having two shots at an 6-7 person double elimination bracket, which is what happens now (and puts you straight in Code S).
On May 01 2018 00:34 IshinShishi wrote: One essential thing people aren't considering is that during Mvp's era sc2 was peaking, everyone was trying hard, the game was huge and viewer numbers were very high with lots of tournaments, so the argument that it wasn't as competitive back then because the game was young gets mostly nullified, if anything it was harder because of how popular the game was, the harsh truth is that almost nobody gives a shit for years now.
the argument isn't that the scene wasn't as competitive because the game was young. The scene was less competitive because KeSPA didn't switch yet. With the Kespa switch a wave of extremely talented and hardworking players arrived in the scene and the professionalism increased significantly. There's a reason most of the esf players couldn't compete anymore at the highest level with the exceptions being Maru, PartinG and Life.
On May 01 2018 00:34 IshinShishi wrote: One essential thing people aren't considering is that during Mvp's era sc2 was peaking, everyone was trying hard, the game was huge and viewer numbers were very high with lots of tournaments, so the argument that it wasn't as competitive back then because the game was young gets mostly nullified, if anything it was harder because of how popular the game was, the harsh truth is that almost nobody gives a shit for years now.
the argument isn't that the scene wasn't as competitive because the game was young. The scene was less competitive because KeSPA didn't switch yet. With the Kespa switch a wave of extremely talented and hardworking players arrived in the scene and the professionalism increased significantly. There's a reason most of the esf players couldn't compete anymore at the highest level with the exceptions being Maru, PartinG and Life.
I followed sc2 during the switch, it was underwhelming to say the least. The elephant in the room turned out to be at most a cow.
On May 01 2018 00:34 IshinShishi wrote: One essential thing people aren't considering is that during Mvp's era sc2 was peaking, everyone was trying hard, the game was huge and viewer numbers were very high with lots of tournaments, so the argument that it wasn't as competitive back then because the game was young gets mostly nullified, if anything it was harder because of how popular the game was, the harsh truth is that almost nobody gives a shit for years now.
the argument isn't that the scene wasn't as competitive because the game was young. The scene was less competitive because KeSPA didn't switch yet. With the Kespa switch a wave of extremely talented and hardworking players arrived in the scene and the professionalism increased significantly. There's a reason most of the esf players couldn't compete anymore at the highest level with the exceptions being Maru, PartinG and Life.
I followed sc2 during the switch, it was underwhelming to say the least. The elephant in the room turned out to be at most a cow.
Of course it took time for Kespa player to reach pro level in sc2 '-- but in the end they surpassed the old ESF guard. Try to watch some 2010 VOD, it's so slow, players didn't have half the mechanics they have since Kespa switch which pushed every player to train harder.
On May 01 2018 00:34 IshinShishi wrote: One essential thing people aren't considering is that during Mvp's era sc2 was peaking, everyone was trying hard, the game was huge and viewer numbers were very high with lots of tournaments, so the argument that it wasn't as competitive back then because the game was young gets mostly nullified, if anything it was harder because of how popular the game was, the harsh truth is that almost nobody gives a shit for years now.
the argument isn't that the scene wasn't as competitive because the game was young. The scene was less competitive because KeSPA didn't switch yet. With the Kespa switch a wave of extremely talented and hardworking players arrived in the scene and the professionalism increased significantly. There's a reason most of the esf players couldn't compete anymore at the highest level with the exceptions being Maru, PartinG and Life.
I followed sc2 during the switch, it was underwhelming to say the least. The elephant in the room turned out to be at most a cow.
Of course it took time for Kespa player to reach pro level in sc2 '-- but in the end they surpassed the old ESF guard. Try to watch some 2010 VOD, it's so slow, players didn't have half the mechanics they have since Kespa switch which pushed every player to train harder.
But despite that, it was way more fun to watch back then.
On May 01 2018 00:34 IshinShishi wrote: One essential thing people aren't considering is that during Mvp's era sc2 was peaking, everyone was trying hard, the game was huge and viewer numbers were very high with lots of tournaments, so the argument that it wasn't as competitive back then because the game was young gets mostly nullified, if anything it was harder because of how popular the game was, the harsh truth is that almost nobody gives a shit for years now.
the argument isn't that the scene wasn't as competitive because the game was young. The scene was less competitive because KeSPA didn't switch yet. With the Kespa switch a wave of extremely talented and hardworking players arrived in the scene and the professionalism increased significantly. There's a reason most of the esf players couldn't compete anymore at the highest level with the exceptions being Maru, PartinG and Life.
I followed sc2 during the switch, it was underwhelming to say the least. The elephant in the room turned out to be at most a cow.
Of course it took time for Kespa player to reach pro level in sc2 '-- but in the end they surpassed the old ESF guard. Try to watch some 2010 VOD, it's so slow, players didn't have half the mechanics they have since Kespa switch which pushed every player to train harder.
Well that's just the "the game was young" argument that is responded to in the comment chain above.
On May 01 2018 02:02 DieuCure wrote: Yes pre kespa era = hardest to win a gsl rofl
Well... I think most would agree all of HotS was by far the most competitive era. The sheer number of teams, tournaments, team leagues, players in Korea, rigor of the starleague formats and plain interest in the scene was just ridiculous back then. Still, I honestly don't think pre-Kespa was the primitive shitshow that most would have you believe it was.
At a minimum, I absolutely believe the competition from the second half of 2011 onward was much more fierce than what LotV is today. That is the era that I'd pinpoint as to where the Korean scene really came together and we had a clear low, mid, and top tier of players with guys like Ensnare getting the boot out of code S finally.
On May 01 2018 00:34 IshinShishi wrote: One essential thing people aren't considering is that during Mvp's era sc2 was peaking, everyone was trying hard, the game was huge and viewer numbers were very high with lots of tournaments, so the argument that it wasn't as competitive back then because the game was young gets mostly nullified, if anything it was harder because of how popular the game was, the harsh truth is that almost nobody gives a shit for years now.
the argument isn't that the scene wasn't as competitive because the game was young. The scene was less competitive because KeSPA didn't switch yet. With the Kespa switch a wave of extremely talented and hardworking players arrived in the scene and the professionalism increased significantly. There's a reason most of the esf players couldn't compete anymore at the highest level with the exceptions being Maru, PartinG and Life.
I can't deny that Kespa brought an overall stronger pool of players but not significantly better like you're claiming. The lone exception to where the average Kespa players was much better than their non-Kespa counterpart was when it came to Protoss. For whatever reason, the Kespa players have had that race on lock. Prior to their arrival only MC and PartinG had any staying power at the top level. The Kespa tosses have not only been far more dominant but innovative as well, hell Rain was both of these instantly upon arrival
However, when it comes to Terrans, the pre-Kespa pool was far better and more diverse (don't forget Taeja, Polt, Bomber and Dream!). Yeah, Kespa brought us the GOAT (Bogus) and an excellent late bloomer in TY but aside from those two it rapidly breaks down after that compared to the pre-Kespa pool. When it comes to the Zergs I'd say it's about even with a slight favor towards the pre-Kespa pool of Zergs (I don't consider Dark and ByuL Kespa).
==
Another thing that should be mentioned is that the rise of WCS from 2013-2014 kinda further screwed the comparison between the two where a lot of the pre-Kespa players had the leeway to go compete in easier leagues against foreigners while nearly all of the Kespa players had SPL obligations and had to stay home in a much more competitive region. Still, it's worth noting the turning point between 2014 and 2015 where we went from
There was also the 2014 Blizzcon where MMA, Life, and Taeja rolled Zest, soO, Classic, and Bogus. MMA, in particular, is of interest considering he hadn't looked like a title contender since early 2012 but he followed up his surprising Blizzcon performance with an even more dominant code S run. Really makes you wonder if a lot of the older players simply aren't as driven anymore and absolutely could be dominant again if they really desired.
Really, most of 2015 had a healthy amount of both Kespa and pre-Kespa players posting relevant results. Which is important as I would say that was the most competitive sc2 year overall with 2014 narrowly trailing.
You're right. I had mostly GSL in mind which was very KeSPA dominated but I get your points that it was for other reasons than the skill gap. Still the overall player pool got much stronger with the switch which made the scene much more competitive. But you seem to agree with that already.
On May 01 2018 00:34 IshinShishi wrote: One essential thing people aren't considering is that during Mvp's era sc2 was peaking, everyone was trying hard, the game was huge and viewer numbers were very high with lots of tournaments, so the argument that it wasn't as competitive back then because the game was young gets mostly nullified, if anything it was harder because of how popular the game was, the harsh truth is that almost nobody gives a shit for years now.
the argument isn't that the scene wasn't as competitive because the game was young. The scene was less competitive because KeSPA didn't switch yet. With the Kespa switch a wave of extremely talented and hardworking players arrived in the scene and the professionalism increased significantly. There's a reason most of the esf players couldn't compete anymore at the highest level with the exceptions being Maru, PartinG and Life.
I followed sc2 during the switch, it was underwhelming to say the least. The elephant in the room turned out to be at most a cow.
Of course it took time for Kespa player to reach pro level in sc2 '-- but in the end they surpassed the old ESF guard. Try to watch some 2010 VOD, it's so slow, players didn't have half the mechanics they have since Kespa switch which pushed every player to train harder.
But despite that, it was way more fun to watch back then.
On May 01 2018 00:34 IshinShishi wrote: One essential thing people aren't considering is that during Mvp's era sc2 was peaking, everyone was trying hard, the game was huge and viewer numbers were very high with lots of tournaments, so the argument that it wasn't as competitive back then because the game was young gets mostly nullified, if anything it was harder because of how popular the game was, the harsh truth is that almost nobody gives a shit for years now.
the argument isn't that the scene wasn't as competitive because the game was young. The scene was less competitive because KeSPA didn't switch yet. With the Kespa switch a wave of extremely talented and hardworking players arrived in the scene and the professionalism increased significantly. There's a reason most of the esf players couldn't compete anymore at the highest level with the exceptions being Maru, PartinG and Life.
I followed sc2 during the switch, it was underwhelming to say the least. The elephant in the room turned out to be at most a cow.
Of course it took time for Kespa player to reach pro level in sc2 '-- but in the end they surpassed the old ESF guard. Try to watch some 2010 VOD, it's so slow, players didn't have half the mechanics they have since Kespa switch which pushed every player to train harder.
But despite that, it was way more fun to watch back then.
Only in TvZ, and before blord infest.
Nah even with that. The whole KESPA players will own everything talk was only annoying. Then region spilt was established and it was so much less fun to watch. WoL times were the best to watch for me and more importantly: best to play. It was just fun and with HOTS so many people around me stopped to play. Its important to have a playerbase as well as pros to play tournaments for fans to watch.
On May 01 2018 00:34 IshinShishi wrote: One essential thing people aren't considering is that during Mvp's era sc2 was peaking, everyone was trying hard, the game was huge and viewer numbers were very high with lots of tournaments, so the argument that it wasn't as competitive back then because the game was young gets mostly nullified, if anything it was harder because of how popular the game was, the harsh truth is that almost nobody gives a shit for years now.
the argument isn't that the scene wasn't as competitive because the game was young. The scene was less competitive because KeSPA didn't switch yet. With the Kespa switch a wave of extremely talented and hardworking players arrived in the scene and the professionalism increased significantly. There's a reason most of the esf players couldn't compete anymore at the highest level with the exceptions being Maru, PartinG and Life.
I followed sc2 during the switch, it was underwhelming to say the least. The elephant in the room turned out to be at most a cow.
Of course it took time for Kespa player to reach pro level in sc2 '-- but in the end they surpassed the old ESF guard. Try to watch some 2010 VOD, it's so slow, players didn't have half the mechanics they have since Kespa switch which pushed every player to train harder.
But despite that, it was way more fun to watch back then.
Only in TvZ, and before blord infest.
Nah even with that. The whole KESPA players will own everything talk was only annoying. Then region spilt was established and it was so much less fun to watch. WoL times were the best to watch for me and more importantly: best to play. It was just fun and with HOTS so many people around me stopped to play. Its important to have a playerbase as well as pros to play tournaments for fans to watch.
WoL was fun because of a few reasons, but none of them being that it was actually better game. Nostalgia, the fact people didn't really understand how to play, and the fact the game was hugely popular.
Watching pro games from WoL now makes them seem less impressive. And anyone who denies the difference in skill between pre and post kespa is delusional. So many of the pre kespa players couldn't even keep competing in korea after the switch.
On May 01 2018 08:40 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:There was also the 2014 Blizzcon where MMA, Life, and Taeja rolled Zest, soO, Classic, and Bogus. MMA, in particular, is of interest considering he hadn't looked like a title contender since early 2012 but he followed up his surprising Blizzcon performance with an even more dominant code S run. Really makes you wonder if a lot of the older players simply aren't as driven anymore and absolutely could be dominant again if they really desired.
Really, most of 2015 had a healthy amount of both Kespa and pre-Kespa players posting relevant results. Which is important as I would say that was the most competitive sc2 year overall with 2014 narrowly trailing.
The Kespa players dominated in korea especially and raised the skill level significantly. Many of the pre-kespa players couldn't keep up with them in korea and started competing elsewhere. Even the best pre-kespa players were mostly weekend warriors. With exceptions being the absolute best (Life, PartinG, Maru etc)
That blizzcon was a strange event but players more used to performing in weekend/overseas events doing better is no suprise. Even in current blizzcons we see that happening.
The suprise Hot6 run by MKP was crazy, but it really was an anomaly. He was a one trick pony in that event. The protoss players didn't realise how easy he was to beat him until sOs in the final. At least that's how I remember it went (??)
On May 01 2018 08:40 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:There was also the 2014 Blizzcon where MMA, Life, and Taeja rolled Zest, soO, Classic, and Bogus. MMA, in particular, is of interest considering he hadn't looked like a title contender since early 2012 but he followed up his surprising Blizzcon performance with an even more dominant code S run. Really makes you wonder if a lot of the older players simply aren't as driven anymore and absolutely could be dominant again if they really desired.
Really, most of 2015 had a healthy amount of both Kespa and pre-Kespa players posting relevant results. Which is important as I would say that was the most competitive sc2 year overall with 2014 narrowly trailing.
The Kespa players dominated in korea especially and raised the skill level significantly. Many of the pre-kespa players couldn't keep up with them in korea and started competing elsewhere. Even the best pre-kespa players were mostly weekend warriors. With exceptions being the absolute best (Life, PartinG, Maru etc)
That blizzcon was a strange event but players more used to performing in weekend/overseas events doing better is no suprise. Even in current blizzcons we see that happening.
The suprise Hot6 run by MKP was crazy, but it really was an anomaly. He was a one trick pony in that event. The protoss players didn't realise how easy he was to beat him until sOs in the final. At least that's how I remember it went (??)
This just factually isn't true. Look at the evidence:
On May 01 2018 08:40 FrostedMiniWheats wrote:There was also the 2014 Blizzcon where MMA, Life, and Taeja rolled Zest, soO, Classic, and Bogus. MMA, in particular, is of interest considering he hadn't looked like a title contender since early 2012 but he followed up his surprising Blizzcon performance with an even more dominant code S run. Really makes you wonder if a lot of the older players simply aren't as driven anymore and absolutely could be dominant again if they really desired.
Really, most of 2015 had a healthy amount of both Kespa and pre-Kespa players posting relevant results. Which is important as I would say that was the most competitive sc2 year overall with 2014 narrowly trailing.
The Kespa players dominated in korea especially and raised the skill level significantly. Many of the pre-kespa players couldn't keep up with them in korea and started competing elsewhere. Even the best pre-kespa players were mostly weekend warriors. With exceptions being the absolute best (Life, PartinG, Maru etc)
Yeah, I've heard this one before. All throughout 2013-2014 about the "Korean runners" fleeing from the "true pros". When in actuality that was probably only true for a small percentage of them (pains me to say it, but NesTea would fall into that category ;; ). The vast majority were probably just looking for easier money and a little travel adventure in foreign lands. You have to remember these guys are also doing this as a job. I'm sure a lot care about being the best but their are of course financial considerations as well that take priority. All 3 WCS regions paid the same amount of money from what I remember, so try to see it from their perspective:
Do you remember what the dawn of 2015 was like where we had all kinds of mid - top tier Koreans scrambling to get on foreign teams because they wanted to travel to foreign events? Rain, Fantasy, Soulkey, Hydra, etc all passed up other Kespa teams for foreign opportunities instead.
In fact, I don't believe Kespa players held the majority of spots in code S until the beginning of 2014 which again, was due to the pre-Kespa players having more leeway to travel to other regions. I will, however, concede that in time that the Kespa pool of players have had more ro8+ representation and many more starleague wins since their arrival. So it is fair to say that they're considerably more top-heavy.
tl;dr: Kespa players ofc raised the skill level. The injection of 7 Korean teams worth of them into the scene is bound to do that.I just don't believe there was a big disparity in skill when comparing the average Kespa player to non-Kespa player.
I'm a little confused by NesTea being in the top 10 to be honest lol, but I haven't been following SC2 in awhile, is this just due to overall votes because of his overall awesomeness in the past?
Would you rather try your luck in a group like this that isn't even code S level... or play a bo5 against Catz to make it into WCS AM Premiere for the same amount of money?
EPT
Polt (87 pts), 
Rogue (81 pts), 
Rain (80 pts)![[image loading]](http://liquipedia.net/commons/images/thumb/a/af/NesTeaIPL4.jpg/399px-NesTeaIPL4.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://liquipedia.net/commons/images/thumb/0/0a/Maru_IEM_WC_2015.jpg/600px-Maru_IEM_WC_2015.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://liquipedia.net/commons/images/thumb/4/48/Zest_iem_toronto14.jpg/600px-Zest_iem_toronto14.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://liquipedia.net/commons/images/a/a3/TaeJa_BlizzCon_2014.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://liquipedia.net/commons/images/thumb/d/d8/Mc-SF20121103-164736.jpg/399px-Mc-SF20121103-164736.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://liquipedia.net/commons/images/thumb/4/46/Sos_iem_toronto14.jpg/600px-Sos_iem_toronto14.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://liquipedia.net/commons/images/thumb/2/25/SoOj_two.jpg/525px-SoOj_two.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://liquipedia.net/commons/images/2/27/Life_Champion_BlizzCon_2014.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://liquipedia.net/commons/images/thumb/0/0f/Mvp-SFMLG20130316-204436.jpg/399px-Mvp-SFMLG20130316-204436.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://liquipedia.net/commons/images/thumb/4/4b/SKT1_INnoVation_WCS_2014.jpg/399px-SKT1_INnoVation_WCS_2014.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/8v55g0d.png)
Maru, 
Rain, 
Bonjwa
