On April 09 2018 18:39 fronkschnonk wrote: @BisuDagger Taking the victories away Life undoubtetly had, makes it impossible to be kind of objective with such lists - for me at least. If I do so, I have to consider who I think is more likable for whatever reason. So I have to decide: do I want to have a list of players with a summation of different factors (success, innovation, coolness, creativity, fairplay, deep thinking, funniness, community interaction...) or of players who are really good at starcraft 2? I think that most people opted for the second. If we want a list without life, an exclusion of life would've to be determined in the beginning.
Also I think, it turned out quite well. Life isn't near the first place pointwise and that's definitely because of people excluding him due to his damnable matchfixing. So he'll never be able to win such a voting because of his actions.
That's a pretty reasonable way of looking at it. I'd like to see a list based on scenario one. It sounds like we would get a fun list.
1) TaeJa bias - really no words towards this... The guy was decent but top 30 at most. But hell, its teamliquid, mmkay :/ 2) Too much nostalgia - Players such as NesTea and MC are nowhere near top 10.
Also Inno and soO are too high but that is to be expected they have huge fanbase.
Otherwise good list, I actually expected it to be worse, like TaeJa at 2nd, Life not making top 10 or something in that regard lol
I can agree to this ranking, sad to see MVP lose out, but I guess innovation accomplished a bit more.
What surprised me, is the balance: 4Terrans, 3 Protoss, 3 Zerg which in my opinion is really nice and shows that every race is able to do well over a longer period of time or they wouldn't have been elected in GOAT ranking
On April 09 2018 19:53 Philozovic wrote: Sure 11 premiers and 25 top 4 is top30 at most 3 GSL top 8 in a row 2 GSL top 4 Positive record against both Inno and Life
Ya right, 11 Premier :D The fact that TL fanboys call something a premier tournament does not make it an actual premier tournament. Taeja has 0 Tier 1 tournament wins. Z E R O. This senseless bias is one of the funniest things on TL ))
On April 09 2018 19:53 Philozovic wrote: Sure 11 premiers and 25 top 4 is top30 at most 3 GSL top 8 in a row 2 GSL top 4 Positive record against both Inno and Life
Ya right, 11 Premier :D The fact that TL fanboys call something a premier tournament does not make it an actual premier tournament. Taeja has 0 Tier 1 tournament wins. Z E R O. This senseless bias is one of the funniest things on TL ))
And i thought i am one of the most critical people when it comes to taeja, well you are just a hater so i guess it is still true :D I completely agree that weekenders are not the same tier as starleagues, but taeja was an excellent player and the sheer number of high place finishes at these weekenders surely makes him one of the best players ever. Yes the lvl of competition at weekenders was lower, noticeably so in fact. But especially in the later rounds you still had to beat the likes of Life, Zest or other top koreans. "top 30 at most" is incredibly ridiculous and based on nothing but hate (something other people would say about my taeja criticism as well :D) Ok i defended Taeja in a goat discussion, there's always a first.
INnoVation narrowly edges out Mvp for GOAT. InnoVation's peak in 2017 was undeniable. soO above Life when you consider the entire body of work of the course of their career. Maru is the 3rd best Terran of all time. TaeJa rounds out the top 10.
On April 09 2018 19:53 Philozovic wrote: Sure 11 premiers and 25 top 4 is top30 at most 3 GSL top 8 in a row 2 GSL top 4 Positive record against both Inno and Life
Ya right, 11 Premier :D The fact that TL fanboys call something a premier tournament does not make it an actual premier tournament. Taeja has 0 Tier 1 tournament wins. Z E R O. This senseless bias is one of the funniest things on TL ))
And i thought i am one of the most critical people when it comes to taeja, well you are just a hater so i guess it is still true :D I completely agree that weekenders are not the same tier as starleagues, but taeja was an excellent player and the sheer number of high place finishes at these weekenders surely makes him one of the best players ever. Yes the lvl of competition at weekenders was lower, noticeably so in fact. But especially in the later rounds you still had to beat the likes of Life, Zest or other top koreans. "top 30 at most" is incredibly ridiculous and based on nothing but hate (something other people would say about my taeja criticism as well :D) Ok i defended Taeja in a goat discussion, there's always a first.
It is true though. Taeja never won a top tier tournament. He's shown me potential. I would put him top 15, not top 10. That said, had he stayed in Korea, I believe he would develop into a top 10 player. He chose more opportunities overseas and I understand that. But you can't have it both ways.
Pre 2013 Korean competition is also quite a bit weaker than afterwards. You have the like of Symbol, Seed, jjakji winning GSLs. Weak competition makes MC and Nestea less impressive in hindsight. You have to give Nestea credit for figuring out the game when the game was being figured out. Great innovator, but he should not be in GOAT discussion.
Pains me to say it, especially with how much I tried to hang on the Nestea train back in the day but he doesn't deserve the top 10 spot if I'm being fair. He's perhaps the most impactful Zerg player ever in terms of innovation, but Nestea's downfall on the GOAT list is a strong lack of longevity compared to the players he's competing with. I paid such close attention to Nestea that I can even pinpoint his last great tournament which was Iron Squid II way back in January of 2013. After that is was nonstop Zergbong shit that continued to wound my heart.
No idea at all why Rogue is even an honorable mention xD. He's looking like a worthy successor to Life in that he can actually win tournaments (ByuL, soO, Dark, I'm looking at you...), but at this time he simply doesn't have nearly enough to be competitive in the GOAT runnings. He's like Taeja but with way less accolades to cover his lack of starleague titles.
INnoVation narrowly edges out Mvp for GOAT. InnoVation's peak in 2017 was undeniable. soO above Life when you consider the entire body of work of the course of their career. Maru is the 3rd best Terran of all time. TaeJa rounds out the top 10.
How do you put soO above Life? Life won multiple GSLs and Blizzcon. soO does have an impressive record, but being able to finish off tournaments should weigh heavily. Life also got a lot of second places.
On April 10 2018 14:26 Ej_ wrote: Symbol never won a GSL In fact, his only GSL final was after KeSPA switched over
brood lord vs. brood lord, never forget
It was during BLinfestor era... I remember well, iNno was with taeja one the only terran that can really compete with zerg in late game. ro8 Symbol took him with dirty tactics, taeja survived Soulkey and keep up the light, but in the end Roro just broke him in semis
Symbol vs Roro, just when i thought I could never see a worse GSL final than Hyun vs Sniper...
INnoVation narrowly edges out Mvp for GOAT. InnoVation's peak in 2017 was undeniable. soO above Life when you consider the entire body of work of the course of their career. Maru is the 3rd best Terran of all time. TaeJa rounds out the top 10.
How do you put soO above Life? Life won multiple GSLs and Blizzcon. soO does have an impressive record, but being able to finish off tournaments should weigh heavily. Life also got a lot of second places.
Life also single-handedly destroyed the Kespa scene. (Overstatement, but he did serious damage to SC)
INnoVation narrowly edges out Mvp for GOAT. InnoVation's peak in 2017 was undeniable. soO above Life when you consider the entire body of work of the course of their career. Maru is the 3rd best Terran of all time. TaeJa rounds out the top 10.
How do you put soO above Life? Life won multiple GSLs and Blizzcon. soO does have an impressive record, but being able to finish off tournaments should weigh heavily. Life also got a lot of second places.
Life also single-handedly destroyed the Kespa scene. (Overstatement, but he did serious damage to SC)
I wasn't aware this ranking would consider stuff like that.
On April 10 2018 15:27 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: Fairly good list.
Pains me to say it, especially with how much I tried to hang on the Nestea train back in the day but he doesn't deserve the top 10 spot if I'm being fair. He's perhaps the most impactful Zerg player ever in terms of innovation, but Nestea's downfall on the GOAT list is a strong lack of longevity compared to the players he's competing with. I paid such close attention to Nestea that I can even pinpoint his last great tournament which was Iron Squid II way back in January of 2013. After that is was nonstop Zergbong shit that continued to wound my heart.
No idea at all why Rogue is even an honorable mention xD. He's looking like a worthy successor to Life in that he can actually win tournaments (ByuL, soO, Dark, I'm looking at you...), but at this time he simply doesn't have nearly enough to be competitive in the GOAT runnings. He's like Taeja but with way less accolades to cover his lack of starleague titles.
Depends on how you weigh tournaments. Personally, I would weigh Blizzcon quite heavily above all other tournaments though that's just a personal preference. Also Rogue might not be top tier since recently but if you look at dominance it is quite horrifying: He won all his trophies in the last half year. (I think 4). That's just insane.
EPT
))
