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On April 08 2018 06:24 Waxangel wrote:Too much recency bias with a very selective memory of the past. Polt, MMA, Rain underrated  Also awaiting yet another stuchiu article about Mvp, now that he's revealed the nature of his injuries
Indeed.
Also I like Nestea, but the more that I think about it the more I realize he doesn't deserve to be above Polt, MMA, or Rain. (Especially MMA).
Heck, if we're talking about people better than Nestea, probably Leenock and Parting too.
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I think the list as it stands, that is the one the main OP as of this moment, is quite solid. In my own one I didn't mention that I ranked it based on number of GSLs won for the most part, along with other tournament success (triple crown, success over time/longevity). This wasn't infallible and I did let some shameful personal bias get in the way (I have no excuse) :/.
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On April 08 2018 06:01 starkiller123 wrote:
NesTea at 10 is way too high, he was only good for one year which should not get him anywhere near top 10
I think there's something to be said for being a pioneer when a games pro scene is young . The players that do well at this stage often have a diffrent set of skills than those that do well later on. I think that in the early life of sc2 players who were strategically innovative were a lot more powerful than they are today, you still see smart players like rouge and sos do well today but they are more about doing builds that abuse the meta than totally altering it.
Granted if you took any player in the gsl today and sent them in a time machine back to the Early GSL I'm prity sure they would at least make round of 4, and if you took nearly any round of 16 player today they would stomp the likes of fruit dealer, MC, and nestea, maybe MVP would be able to put up a fight though but I'm pretty sure that the level of players today is just a lot higher than back than.
But I think there's something to be said for the innovators who solved various problems in the meta to win an early gsl, it was awe inspiring to watch how nestea was able to show us the power of a Zerg who can hold any Allin thrown his way in a tournament that was defined by 2 rax allins on imbalanced small maps. It was amazing to watch how the finals between marine king and
MVP redifined the way that tvt was played. I loved this early period in sc2s life span, maybe not always as a player there were a lot of bad maps and overpowered allins on them but as a spectator it was great.
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MVP not number one,
sad to see this list is Bogus'.
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We all saw what you did there, JWD. Aren't you ashamed?
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On April 08 2018 07:45 pvsnp wrote:Thanks, good to know
FIVE?!
Slipping one is bad enough. How the hell do you have 5 slipped discs?
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Nestea wasn't only good in 2011.. First one of his GSL wins was 2010. He was also still extremely good in 2012 just choked a few times but he was still a top 3 zerg for all but the end of that year. If IPL4 was spaced out a little more he probably would have won that tournament. He would also have had even better GSL results in 2011 if the brackets didn't keep pairing him and MVP up before the finals. With better brackets half the finals that year would have been Nestea vs MVP. He definitely deserves his place on this list.
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On April 09 2018 00:40 Cricketer12 wrote:FIVE?! Slipping one is bad enough. How the hell do you have 5 slipped discs?
Painfully, I imagine.
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Bisutopia19298 Posts
I waited until the thread finished with the poll to say I think it's wrong that Life was included in this. Frankly, I'm surprised people felt okay voting for him. His championships were taken away. He has no GSLs. Ignoring the cheating part, the mere fact that his trophies between blizzcon and GSL were taken away means that he has no accomplishments. He was a good starcraft player but lacks what is required to be called greatest.
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France12904 Posts
Doesn't matter that he got his trophies taken away, he still won the tournaments.
Plus zergs used to believe in him to win, and he delivered unlike Dark.
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On April 09 2018 05:47 Poopi wrote:
Doesn't matter that he got his trophies taken away, he still won the tournaments.
Plus zergs used to believe in him to win, and he delivered unlike Dark.
Exactly, he was a legit player for a while at least and in that while he was a godly zerg player.
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On April 09 2018 05:47 Poopi wrote:
Doesn't matter that he got his trophies taken away, he still won the tournaments.
Plus zergs used to believe in him to win, and he delivered unlike Dark.
too soon
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I mean i can understand that it might seem silly to call a matchfixer "greatest player", there are different approaches to this though.
Some people would definitely say that the negative impact he had on the sc2 scene makes him not worth to even consider for the goat position, others (and i fall into that category) really only look at the gameplay side of things.
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Bisutopia19298 Posts
On April 09 2018 05:47 Poopi wrote:
Doesn't matter that he got his trophies taken away, he still won the tournaments.
Plus zergs used to believe in him to win, and he delivered unlike Dark.
I personally think it's embarrassing that as a community everyone decided he should be on the list. As someone who has live through both SC1 and SC2 eras Life and Savior just don't deserve to be on these lists.
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On April 09 2018 07:19 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2018 05:47 Poopi wrote:
Doesn't matter that he got his trophies taken away, he still won the tournaments.
Plus zergs used to believe in him to win, and he delivered unlike Dark. I personally think it's embarrassing that as a community everyone decided he should be on the list. As someone who has live through both SC1 and SC2 eras Life and Savior just don't deserve to be on these lists.
I always found it interesting how there seems to be a strong correlation between investment in the scene, and hardline stances against matchfixing (particularly Life). On one end of the spectrum there are casual fans who ask why Life isn't around anymore and how nice it would be to see him play, vs the other end of grizzled veterans who think any mention of Life should be redacted posthaste. Greater familiarity breeds greater hostility.
And of course at the furthest end, the Korean pros–his former friends and compatriots–refuse to so much as speak his name.
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Bisutopia19298 Posts
On April 09 2018 07:43 pvsnp wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2018 07:19 BisuDagger wrote:On April 09 2018 05:47 Poopi wrote:
Doesn't matter that he got his trophies taken away, he still won the tournaments.
Plus zergs used to believe in him to win, and he delivered unlike Dark. I personally think it's embarrassing that as a community everyone decided he should be on the list. As someone who has live through both SC1 and SC2 eras Life and Savior just don't deserve to be on these lists. I always found it interesting how there seems to be a strong correlation between investment in the scene, and hardline stances against matchfixing (particularly Life). On one end of the spectrum there are casual fans who ask why Life isn't around anymore and how nice it would be to see him play, vs the other end of grizzled veterans who think any mention of Life should be redacted posthaste. Greater familiarity breeds greater hostility. And of course at the furthest end, the Korean pros–his former friends and compatriots–refuse to so much as speak his name.
I don't think it's hostility at all. If organizers involved gave either players a chance to redeem themselves, I wouldn't be picking up a pitch fork. But they are still held responsible for their actions at the time they were active
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On April 09 2018 05:47 Poopi wrote:
Doesn't matter that he got his trophies taken away, he still won the tournaments.
Plus zergs used to believe in him to win, and he delivered unlike Dark.
Mannnnnnnnnnnnn, that hurts cause it's true.
On April 09 2018 07:19 BisuDagger wrote:Show nested quote +On April 09 2018 05:47 Poopi wrote:
Doesn't matter that he got his trophies taken away, he still won the tournaments.
Plus zergs used to believe in him to win, and he delivered unlike Dark. I personally think it's embarrassing that as a community everyone decided he should be on the list. As someone who has live through both SC1 and SC2 eras Life and Savior just don't deserve to be on these lists.
Also agreed I can admire their play but they don't deserve to be on any goat lists. I wouldn't say it's embarrassing to admire their play though. That may be a tad harsh
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On April 09 2018 05:41 BisuDagger wrote:
I waited until the thread finished with the poll to say I think it's wrong that Life was included in this. Frankly, I'm surprised people felt okay voting for him. His championships were taken away. He has no GSLs. Ignoring the cheating part, the mere fact that his trophies between blizzcon and GSL were taken away means that he has no accomplishments. He was a good starcraft player but lacks what is required to be called greatest.
Savior is still considered a Bonjwa despite getting all his trophies taken away too.
 Bonjwa
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No MMA, this community is terrible!
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@BisuDagger
Taking the victories away Life undoubtetly had, makes it impossible to be kind of objective with such lists - for me at least. If I do so, I have to consider who I think is more likable for whatever reason. So I have to decide: do I want to have a list of players with a summation of different factors (success, innovation, coolness, creativity, fairplay, deep thinking, funniness, community interaction...) or of players who are really good at starcraft 2? I think that most people opted for the second.
If we want a list without life, an exclusion of life would've to be determined in the beginning.
Also I think, it turned out quite well. Life isn't near the first place pointwise and that's definitely because of people excluding him due to his damnable matchfixing. So he'll never be able to win such a voting because of his actions.
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EPT
