|
GOAT is one of those subjective things that everyone thinks is different. Getting the community to agree on one GOAT is next to impossible without overwhelming evidence in a single player's favor. To raise one player above all others demands a feat no other player can equal. Anything less is merely quibbling over semantics.
That being said, everyone can count big shiny trophies and from that simplest of criteria alone we can restrict the list of GOAT contenders to Mvp, Life, Taeja, and Inno. The next-simplest criteria is to look at the quality of those big shiny trophies, namely Korean and foreign tournaments, Starleagues and weekenders. From that we can eliminate Life and Taeja, and hence we are left with only Mvp and Inno.
Mvp and Inno are the only two players to have won 4 GSLs apiece (among many other trophies), and as such both are the only two to come within striking distance of the legendary G5L. To claim that trophy of trophies would indeed be a feat no other player can equal.
Succinctly put, he who claims the G5L claims the crown of GOAT.
|
On March 20 2018 07:30 Cricketer12 wrote:Naniwa at 7? Wtf
he doesnt have Life in his top 15. He has Has at 9 who literally did nothing compared to someone like Elazer or Thorazain. just ignore such posts
|
On March 21 2018 08:21 KalWarkov wrote:he doesnt have Life in his top 15. He has Has at 9 who literally did nothing compared to someone like Elazer or Thorazain. just ignore such posts
Life doesn't belong in the top 1000. Naniwa definitely isn't top 10, but arguing someone who literally shit in the game and communities face belongs in the best players ever is stupid
|
If we are going for "overall career achievements" I think this thread is just really dumb as this criterion just means everyone should look up the same people in liquipedia and post them.. I think my list would be a mix of best consistency over time/ best peak skill / most achievements. Maybe I will post one later.
|
|
|
On March 21 2018 08:37 LongShot27 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2018 08:21 KalWarkov wrote:On March 20 2018 07:30 Cricketer12 wrote:Naniwa at 7? Wtf he doesnt have Life in his top 15. He has Has at 9 who literally did nothing compared to someone like Elazer or Thorazain. just ignore such posts Life doesn't belong in the top 1000. Naniwa definitely isn't top 10, but arguing someone who literally shit in the game and communities face belongs in the best players ever is stupid
Yea Life with insane game sense 2 seperate peaks large number of trophies is worse than tefel and oz
Naniwa's dual hots finals vs life and leenock and his dual mlgs were way less impressive than incontrol going 0-7 in an mlg pool
|
On March 20 2018 18:23 Olli wrote:Show nested quote +On March 20 2018 18:12 Charoisaur wrote:On March 20 2018 17:20 deacon.frost wrote:On March 20 2018 04:02 Fango wrote:On March 20 2018 03:28 Olli wrote:On March 20 2018 02:49 Elentos wrote:On March 20 2018 02:31 SAFenix wrote:1.  Mvp2.  soO3. INnoVation4.  Zest5. Life6. MMA7. Zest8. Rain9. Maru10. DarkMy list is definitely weighted towards active players, as I believe longevity is important in success. Mvp is GOAT solely on the fact that he was the first 'Best in the World' and history counts (similar to how BoxeR is considered a GOAT). soO at #2 is due to his ridiculous consistency to compete at a high level. So weighted towards active players you have Zest twice. As opposed to a lot of people who don't even have him in once, which is just as absurd. Obviously it's all subjective. But I do think Zest is the obvious pick as #1 protoss. I don't see any reason to put another above him, or have him missing on a top 10 list. His 2014 might be the best year of any player to date, except Mvp's 2011 depending on how you look at it. Both MC and Parting had longer eras. e.g. bOth of them getting into RO8 when BL infestor was in its prime. While Zest is in the top5 of all time for sure, it's hard. MC & Parting have earlier starts which gives them the advantage and Parting was a beast even when Zest was around. Then it's just subjective how do you rank sOs, Zest, Parting, MC and Stats. And since this is about 10 players only 3 of them can get in. And while Zest has the nicest body of them all, MC has better singing and probably all of them have better macro than Zest. In my case it's personal feelings, MC gave me mothersip, 4 carriers, templars, 2-4 colossi & void ray composition to fight BL infestor(it worked quite nicely on most of the maps), Parting gave me the Templar opening. Rain gave me turtle-toss. Zest is a really beautiful dude, but that's not enough for me  I love PartinG and he's my favourite protoss of all time but he just doesn't have the results to justify putting him in the top 10. Zest cannot be compared to Parting. You're talking about someone who's never won in Korea vs someone who holds the record for Protoss GSLs (tied with MC if you don't count Global Ch.), the record for most KR championships won by Protoss overall, and the longest and highest peak of any Protoss in the game. Sorry but there's no justifiable argument to put Parting above Zest.
I disagree with Zest having the highest peak of any Protoss in the game. Best protoss career? Sure. but Zest's 2 GSLs in 2014 were literally won on the back of PvPs and PvsoO. You know Zest well and he's always been great at PvP, one other MU and sucks at the third one. Zest usually peaks when Protoss does well in general, partly because there's higher chance for him to play PvP in the playoffs. To me Zest's successful career is the combination of excellent control, killer mentality and luck, but he never strikes me as the most impressive Protoss ever and there are a lot of reasons to put other Protosses above him. To me it's not Parting but Rain.
Personally I don't need a player to win championships to impress me. To me Stats showed the best performance in IEM Katowice 2017 by far, for example. And I never get that people want soO to win that much since he already proved himself a hundred times over. OTOH MC had an extremely successful career and a great personality but his game is far from top 5 protoss of all time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
On March 20 2018 07:30 Cricketer12 wrote:Naniwa at 7? Wtf
Life has disgraced the game and thus doesn't belong on the list /s. Naniwa is a jerk and only gets a penalty :D
If anything these rankings have shown me that the reason people do not put Life as the GOAT is because he did a baddy.
On March 21 2018 08:05 pvsnp wrote:
GOAT is one of those subjective things that everyone thinks is different. Getting the community to agree on one GOAT is next to impossible without overwhelming evidence in a single player's favor. To raise one player above all others demands a feat no other player can equal. Anything less is merely quibbling over semantics.
That being said, everyone can count big shiny trophies and from that simplest of criteria alone we can restrict the list of GOAT contenders to Mvp, Life, Taeja, and Inno. The next-simplest criteria is to look at the quality of those big shiny trophies, namely Korean and foreign tournaments, Starleagues and weekenders. From that we can eliminate Life and Taeja, and hence we are left with only Mvp and Inno.
Mvp and Inno are the only two players to have won 4 GSLs apiece (among many other trophies), and as such both are the only two to come within striking distance of the legendary G5L. To claim that trophy of trophies would indeed be a feat no other player can equal.
Succinctly put, he who claims the G5L claims the crown of GOAT.
That's because you place Blizzcon as a mere Weekender international event. Sure it has gotten weaker over time now that only 9 Koreans get to place in the top 16, but that doesn't take away that it's still the most prestigeous event to win, it heralds the player as the World Champion. Every player will try to hit their peak skill at this time, it's seen from the last two. ByuN wins GSL then goes on to win WCS, Rogue wins GSL then goes on to win WCS. That's not to mention that the ones that sOs and Life won back in the day at most had 1 foreigner. GSL should be regarded highly, but what we always see from these events is that the weekend tournament winners do really well. TaeJa slays SoO just like he was any other player. Life slays Zest. sOs who still never seems to win GSL slays whichever 'big favourites' are there.
Life vs TaeJa was the highest tier rivalry that we've had and that happened in weekenders mostly, but Life also translated that to GSL, beating the likes of Parting, which was also one of the highest peak finals ever. Nowadays it's mostly who gets the opposite side of the SoO bracket and defeats him in the finals. I do think however, that it's likely Rogue has reached a peak greater than what we've seen before.
In my opinion it's actually not even close between Life and MVP. MVP only really 'dominated' one installment of the game and people act like he grabbed the scene by an iron grip, but back then it never felt like that. There were always real contenders like MMA, DongRaeGu, MC and even Life defeated him in the finals being a Royal Roader at only 15 years of age. Not to mention that in the start there were many invite tournaments and GSL had a real shitty format where it was almost impossible to drop out of GSL even though you did really bad. MVP was always on the verge of dropping out, it was kinda like Incontrol at MLG's lol. There were also many more GSL's and until SlayerZ came along it was mostly just Nestea+MVP in the same house having a better understanding of the game than their peers, like when real b tier Koreans in the start of WoL kept taking internationals from white guys simply because they had actual refined Korean made builds. I think it's very hard to argue who is higher now on the list, between MVP and INnoVation, but Life should be the undisputed GOAT.
|
On March 21 2018 19:16 ejozl wrote:Life has disgraced the game and thus doesn't belong on the list /s. Naniwa is a jerk and only gets a penalty :D If anything these rankings have shown me that the reason people do not put Life as the GOAT is because he did a baddy. Show nested quote +On March 21 2018 08:05 pvsnp wrote:
GOAT is one of those subjective things that everyone thinks is different. Getting the community to agree on one GOAT is next to impossible without overwhelming evidence in a single player's favor. To raise one player above all others demands a feat no other player can equal. Anything less is merely quibbling over semantics.
That being said, everyone can count big shiny trophies and from that simplest of criteria alone we can restrict the list of GOAT contenders to Mvp, Life, Taeja, and Inno. The next-simplest criteria is to look at the quality of those big shiny trophies, namely Korean and foreign tournaments, Starleagues and weekenders. From that we can eliminate Life and Taeja, and hence we are left with only Mvp and Inno.
Mvp and Inno are the only two players to have won 4 GSLs apiece (among many other trophies), and as such both are the only two to come within striking distance of the legendary G5L. To claim that trophy of trophies would indeed be a feat no other player can equal.
Succinctly put, he who claims the G5L claims the crown of GOAT. That's because you place Blizzcon as a mere Weekender international event. Sure it has gotten weaker over time now that only 9 Koreans get to place in the top 16, but that doesn't take away that it's still the most prestigeous event to win, it heralds the player as the World Champion. Every player will try to hit their peak skill at this time, it's seen from the last two. ByuN wins GSL then goes on to win WCS, Rogue wins GSL then goes on to win WCS. That's not to mention that the ones that sOs and Life won back in the day at most had 1 foreigner. GSL should be regarded highly, but what we always see from these events is that the weekend tournament winners do really well. TaeJa slays SoO just like he was any other player. Life slays Zest. sOs who still never seems to win GSL slays whichever 'big favourites' are there. Life vs TaeJa was the highest tier rivalry that we've had and that happened in weekenders mostly, but Life also translated that to GSL, beating the likes of Parting, which was also one of the highest peak finals ever. Nowadays it's mostly who gets the opposite side of the SoO bracket and defeats him in the finals. I do think however, that it's likely Rogue has reached a peak greater than what we've seen before. In my opinion it's actually not even close between Life and MVP. MVP only really 'dominated' one installment of the game and people act like he grabbed the scene by an iron grip, but back then it never felt like that. There were always real contenders like MMA, DongRaeGu, MC and even Life defeated him in the finals being a Royal Roader at only 15 years of age. Not to mention that in the start there were many invite tournaments and GSL had a real shitty format where it was almost impossible to drop out of GSL even though you did really bad. MVP was always on the verge of dropping out, it was kinda like Incontrol at MLG's lol. There were also many more GSL's and until SlayerZ came along it was mostly just Nestea+MVP in the same house having a better understanding of the game than their peers, like when real b tier Koreans in the start of WoL kept taking internationals from white guys simply because they had actual refined Korean made builds. I think it's very hard to argue who is higher now on the list, between MVP and INnoVation, but Life should be the undisputed GOAT.
That's some way of rewriting history. Go watch the finals between Mvp and Life again, Mvp was ahead of Life strategically in every single step in those games, he was by far the smarter player on that day, but unfortunately his wrists were gangbanged enough that the mechanical handicap became too big.There's no doubt in my mind that a healthier Mvp would've wrecked Life without much effort.
|
Like going for the lowground 3rd on Ohana and losing it to speedlings?
|
Bump so we get some more lists
|
|
|
I felt pretty dirty not including NesTea, I have to admit.
|
|
|
To make my list I wanted to avoid my own biases as much as possible so I went through Liquipedia and assigned values to top 4 appearances in every premier tournament (and top 8 for Code S or Global Finals) including the most recent Code S finals. Of course, the prestige of every premier tournament is not equal, so the points weren’t weighted equally (Code S and Global Finals > SSL > WCS > IEM > DH, MLG, etc.) with some subjectivity involved in which tournaments fell in which category.
Of course this isn’t a perfect system…perhaps I placed some tournaments in the wrong categories, and maybe some categories receive too many or too few points, it doesn’t take into account the relative skill level of the players (we typically assume that overall the scene improves in skill over time), and it doesn’t reward players from developing new strategies or revolutionizing the meta (at least not beyond assuming those players would win premier tournaments). Based on the limited time, however, this is probably the best I could do.
Feel free to offer any comments on whether or not you think my framework was fair (it did produce some surprising results (see #2 overall and the lack of NesTea):
GSL/Global Finals: 250; 175; 100; 50
SSL/OSL: 200; 100; 50
WCS/IEM Katowice: 150; 75; 30
IEM: 100; 50; 25
DreamHack/MLG/etc.: 75; 40; 20
Other: 50; 25; 10
*10 additional points were awarded to a 3rd place finish while the 4th place received the listed value
One last note before my list and that is on the big elephant in the room while making one of these lists “Should Life be included in this list?” My natural inclination is that yes of course he should because he was one of the greatest players of all time and was undoubtedly the best aggressive zerg ever and given my points system he comes in at #3. However, after talking with a few of my friends I decided that he should not be included. If we think of this list as a Hall of Fame for Starcraft, it should be held to a high standard like a professional sports hall of fame, for example the Baseball Hall of Fame. In the case of baseball, I don’t want anyone who used performance enhancing drugs to be inducted, and Pete Rose, who has the all-time hits record, is excluded because he gambled on major league games. Pete Rose’s situation is most analogous to Life’s (though Rose’s betting occurred when he was a coach rather than a player), and so this “Hall of Fame of Starcraft” should be held to a high standard and thus I excluded Life from my list.
Now on to the list:
1) INnoVation (2265 points)
2) MC (2045 points)
3) Mvp (1980 points)
4) MMA (1925 points)
5) sOs (1780 points)
6) Polt (1685 points)
7) TaeJa (1670 points)
8) PartinG (1630 points)
9) Maru (1590 points)
10) soO (1570 points)
|
On April 01 2018 09:32 invisigoat wrote:Now on to the list: 1) INnoVation (2265 points) 2) MC (2045 points) 3) Mvp (1980 points) 4) MMA (1925 points) 5) sOs (1780 points) 6) Polt (1685 points) 7) TaeJa (1670 points) 8) PartinG (1630 points) 9) Maru (1590 points) 10) soO (1570 points)
This has got to be the most objective and accurate list...
|
On April 04 2018 12:49 Hok wrote:This has got to be the most objective and accurate list...
Accurate is up for debate, but there's no arguing against a point system such as the one he defined being the most consistently objective way to approach GOAT rankings.
Certainly every player on that list is one of the all-time greats, so he's doing something right.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
