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On May 07 2017 22:51 JackONeill wrote:
This means that terrans needs free, risk-free damage to deflect free, risk-free damage. And if you look at it, both the raven (with the turret and the upgraded seeker) and the BC (with yamato + jump) are based on dealing free damage with very little commitment.
the time and money required to put BCs into a position to attack and jump away.. or alternatively jump-in and attack is hardly free. I've badly damaged countless players while in the middle of their "transition to BC".
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On May 07 2017 22:51 JackONeill wrote:
The problem I have with the swarm host isn't balance related, it's design related. From my point of view, any unit dealing damage for free with little to no risk is problematic. You could argue that casters are dealing "free and risk-free" damage, but most casters in the game have to close in to cast their spells (even infested terrans), and somewhat endanger theirselves while doing so.
The SH is basically a X money Y supply investment to get a free doom drop every 43 seconds. And frankly, I don't think that's a bad way to design zerg's mech counter if it didn't mean the best counter is "mass sensor tower turtle into mass ravens" : because the SHs are free, most of the agressive options you can go for are not worthwhile because zerg uses a free army, which means he can replenish drones or switch tech very easily. The problem is that the locusts are free, and that they can also be casted on the main mech army to deal free damage.
This means that terrans needs free, risk-free damage to deflect free, risk-free damage. And if you look at it, both the raven (with the turret and the upgraded seeker) and the BC (with yamato + jump) are based on dealing free damage with very little commitment.
Also, the road blizzard took for mech is giving mech game-breaking stats, while giving other races mech-breaking mechanics. Vipers and SHs are entirely designed to counter mech, while the tank got buffed to a whooping 70dmg, and that the thor maybe gaining +1 armor, adding even more versatility its already all-purpose role.
From there, there's two ways to look at things :
- either we continue increasing the mech units general strength while keeping very strong spells/abilities to specifically counter said mech units
- either we tone down these mechanics and stop buffing the mech units stats
Personnally I'd gladly remove the tank's +15 hp buff and tone down its anti armored damage to 60 in exchange for changes to the SH and the viper. However, I think we're too far down the road for the dev team to start making big design decisions.
A good compromise, I think, would be to leave the thor as it is (not go through with the armor buff), but give the SH a light tag to be chased down by hellions, and nerf the locust swoop range to 4 in stead of 6 so that thors can once again be a soft counter to swarm hosts if they're positionned to intercept the locusts. This wouldn't change the SH's ability to stretch mech players defenses, while exposing theirselves to hellions.
Finally, i think that mech shouldn't necessarily be terran "niche" play. By its very design, bio play is very restrictive because the undivisable stim+shileds+medivacs+baracks production+2 ebays upgrades leaves very little space for diversity. Once you payed for the "bio package", you have very little money left to produce other units, which means that bio compositions are always the same. Mech, on the other hand, gives players a lot of choices because they can build whatever they feel like. You don't need to build tanks if you get other units to fill the role the tank usually play.
Why do you all think Swarmhosts are what breaks the Neck of Terran? You can do just fine without Swarmhost against them. People are just up in arms because they think Swarmhosts do free damage.
I'd say that Swarmhost are not even the strongest Style to play vs Mech. Ling Bane Hydra Broodlord Ultra Corruptor Viper is the composition I usually am for. Swarmhosts are only needed if they turtle really heavily and go to Sky heavy.
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On May 07 2017 23:20 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2017 22:51 JackONeill wrote:
This means that terrans needs free, risk-free damage to deflect free, risk-free damage. And if you look at it, both the raven (with the turret and the upgraded seeker) and the BC (with yamato + jump) are based on dealing free damage with very little commitment. the time and money required to put a BC into a position to attack and jump away.. or alternatively jump-in and attack is hardly free. I've badly damaged countless players while in the middle of their "transition to BC".
Thank God we Zergs spawn with Swarmhosts or Hive Tech in our Base and have no trouble dealing with Terran Harrass while our Swarmhosts attack them for 20 seconds before they have to wait another 20.
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This week in Community Feedback Update: Master Terrans teaching TLO about TvZ
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On May 07 2017 23:47 Railgan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2017 23:20 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On May 07 2017 22:51 JackONeill wrote:
This means that terrans needs free, risk-free damage to deflect free, risk-free damage. And if you look at it, both the raven (with the turret and the upgraded seeker) and the BC (with yamato + jump) are based on dealing free damage with very little commitment. the time and money required to put a BC into a position to attack and jump away.. or alternatively jump-in and attack is hardly free. I've badly damaged countless players while in the middle of their "transition to BC". Thank God we Zergs spawn with Swarmhosts or Hive Tech in our Base and have no trouble dealing with Terran Harrass while our Swarmhosts attack them for 20 seconds before they have to wait another 20.
ya well, "H" stands for Hive right? and the Hive is only 300 whereas a Command Center is 400 and costs more time and money to upgrade.
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On May 08 2017 00:28 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2017 23:47 Railgan wrote:On May 07 2017 23:20 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On May 07 2017 22:51 JackONeill wrote:
This means that terrans needs free, risk-free damage to deflect free, risk-free damage. And if you look at it, both the raven (with the turret and the upgraded seeker) and the BC (with yamato + jump) are based on dealing free damage with very little commitment. the time and money required to put a BC into a position to attack and jump away.. or alternatively jump-in and attack is hardly free. I've badly damaged countless players while in the middle of their "transition to BC". Thank God we Zergs spawn with Swarmhosts or Hive Tech in our Base and have no trouble dealing with Terran Harrass while our Swarmhosts attack them for 20 seconds before they have to wait another 20. ya well, "H" stands for Hive right? and the Hive is only 300 whereas a Command Center is 400 and costs more time and money to upgrade.
Hatchery -> Lair -> Hive is the Zerg Tech Path
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On May 07 2017 23:15 Liquid`TLO wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2017 22:51 JackONeill wrote:
The problem I have with the swarm host isn't balance related, it's design related. From my point of view, any unit dealing damage for free with little to no risk is problematic. You could argue that casters are dealing "free and risk-free" damage, but most casters in the game have to close in to cast their spells (even infested terrans), and somewhat endanger theirselves while doing so.
The SH is basically a X money Y supply investment to get a free doom drop every 43 seconds. And frankly, I don't think that's a bad way to design zerg's mech counter if it didn't mean the best counter is "mass sensor tower turtle into mass ravens" : because the SHs are free, most of the agressive options you can go for are not worthwhile because zerg uses a free army, which means he can replenish drones or switch tech very easily. The problem is that the locusts are free, and that they can also be casted on the main mech army to deal free damage.
This means that terrans needs free, risk-free damage to deflect free, risk-free damage. And if you look at it, both the raven (with the turret and the upgraded seeker) and the BC (with yamato + jump) are based on dealing free damage with very little commitment.
Also, the road blizzard took for mech is giving mech game-breaking stats, while giving other races mech-breaking mechanics. Vipers and SHs are entirely designed to counter mech, while the tank got buffed to a whooping 70dmg, and that the thor maybe gaining +1 armor, adding even more versatility its already all-purpose role.
From there, there's two ways to look at things :
- either we continue increasing the mech units general strength while keeping very strong spells/abilities to specifically counter said mech units
- either we tone down these mechanics and stop buffing the mech units stats
Personnally I'd gladly remove the tank's +15 hp buff and tone down its anti armored damage to 60 in exchange for changes to the SH and the viper. However, I think we're too far down the road for the dev team to start making big design decisions.
A good compromise, I think, would be to leave the thor as it is (not go through with the armor buff), but give the SH a light tag to be chased down by hellions, and nerf the locust swoop range to 4 in stead of 6 so that thors can once again be a soft counter to swarm hosts if they're positionned to intercept the locusts. This wouldn't change the SH's ability to stretch mech players defenses, while exposing theirselves to hellions.
Finally, i think that mech shouldn't necessarily be terran "niche" play. By its very design, bio play is very restrictive because the undivisable stim+shileds+medivacs+baracks production+2 ebays upgrades leaves very little space for diversity. Once you payed for the "bio package", you have very little money left to produce other units, which means that bio compositions are always the same. Mech, on the other hand, gives players a lot of choices because they can build whatever they feel like. You don't need to build tanks if you get other units to fill the role the tank usually play. It's not true that swarmhosts deal ''free'' damage tho. Making Swarmhosts is like taking a loan, If I make 10 swarmhost I'm in debt with with 1000/750 and 30 supply, the longer my swarmhosts don't deal damage the more damage they deal to myself cause I took a loan that is not paying off. Swarmhosts becoming more useless every single second that goes by and even a single wrongly send locusts wave can lose you the game. Swarmhosts styles are insanely hard to make work if Terran knows how to abuse the downtimes and knows how to deflect waves or push out during the downtimes. I've lost so many games because I send one wave to harras and then Terran a moved me and I only had one more wave at home which won't be enough to make my swarmhosts cost efficient. Swarmhosts actually need to get really close to do anything, if Locusts wave spawn from too far away you can just ignore it, lift buildings or run away workers/army. The problem is that some mech players have planted this seeds that swarmhosts are simply too strong rather than looking at the solutions of strong players or finding their own too it. I've given you many examples how to deal with swarmhosts. You should try to look at swarmhosts as an opportunity, because they're very gimmicky and a single mistake will kill Zerg. But if you fear a unit and think it's OP or broken design wise it's a self fulfilling prophecy cause you'll stop looking for weaknesses and solutions. I've been in that spot myself many times and once you are in that mindset you'll stop enjoying the game and just keep losing to it.
I get what you're meaning but i don't think i have a "despair complex" towards SHs. I don't really have an issue with their balance, i don't think they're OP if the map doesn't allow the zerg player to mass them (big "hallway" maps where you can basically mass SHs behind spore/spines/queens and activate 1/3 of them and constantly swarm the terran player with locusts while banking huge amounts of cash). And actually mech games against SHs on cactus valley are a lot of fun because there's so many pathways to attack. The only problem I see is with their design, and how they make the game devolve into terran pushing out and murdering the zerg because he sent a locust wave the wrong way, or into massive turtling while massing ravens.
And by "free" i don't mean that there's no initial investment. You're paying for something that you hope to reimburse through the game, sure. The design issue there is that they can't really be killed. If you compare them to mutas, mech players having a thor in a medivac can not only shoo them away, but kill off one or two if they were damaged by a turret or something. Mutas have a clear downside in the way that they need to get at 3 range to shoot, so you can loose a few of them over the course of the game (so you need to pay for more once in a while).
SHs, on the other hand, can only fight 18secs every 30ish secs, but they probably won't ever be killed because only speed banshees can run them down. Giving mech players a different counterplay than either Amoving like morons when they see SHs or build 4 sensors and 200 turrets, by switching the SH to light tag would be a good way to reduce how gimmicky MechvsSH is. There'd be a real map control stake with hellions roaming to catch SHs. My initial point was that would be better than to just buff mech units stats again.
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On May 08 2017 00:52 Railgan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2017 00:28 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On May 07 2017 23:47 Railgan wrote:On May 07 2017 23:20 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On May 07 2017 22:51 JackONeill wrote:
This means that terrans needs free, risk-free damage to deflect free, risk-free damage. And if you look at it, both the raven (with the turret and the upgraded seeker) and the BC (with yamato + jump) are based on dealing free damage with very little commitment. the time and money required to put a BC into a position to attack and jump away.. or alternatively jump-in and attack is hardly free. I've badly damaged countless players while in the middle of their "transition to BC". Thank God we Zergs spawn with Swarmhosts or Hive Tech in our Base and have no trouble dealing with Terran Harrass while our Swarmhosts attack them for 20 seconds before they have to wait another 20. ya well, "H" stands for Hive right? and the Hive is only 300 whereas a Command Center is 400 and costs more time and money to upgrade. Hatchery -> Lair -> Hive is the Zerg Tech Path
ya, i know. just adding to the sarcasm. 
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Germany766 Posts
On May 08 2017 01:01 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2017 23:15 Liquid`TLO wrote:On May 07 2017 22:51 JackONeill wrote:
The problem I have with the swarm host isn't balance related, it's design related. From my point of view, any unit dealing damage for free with little to no risk is problematic. You could argue that casters are dealing "free and risk-free" damage, but most casters in the game have to close in to cast their spells (even infested terrans), and somewhat endanger theirselves while doing so.
The SH is basically a X money Y supply investment to get a free doom drop every 43 seconds. And frankly, I don't think that's a bad way to design zerg's mech counter if it didn't mean the best counter is "mass sensor tower turtle into mass ravens" : because the SHs are free, most of the agressive options you can go for are not worthwhile because zerg uses a free army, which means he can replenish drones or switch tech very easily. The problem is that the locusts are free, and that they can also be casted on the main mech army to deal free damage.
This means that terrans needs free, risk-free damage to deflect free, risk-free damage. And if you look at it, both the raven (with the turret and the upgraded seeker) and the BC (with yamato + jump) are based on dealing free damage with very little commitment.
Also, the road blizzard took for mech is giving mech game-breaking stats, while giving other races mech-breaking mechanics. Vipers and SHs are entirely designed to counter mech, while the tank got buffed to a whooping 70dmg, and that the thor maybe gaining +1 armor, adding even more versatility its already all-purpose role.
From there, there's two ways to look at things :
- either we continue increasing the mech units general strength while keeping very strong spells/abilities to specifically counter said mech units
- either we tone down these mechanics and stop buffing the mech units stats
Personnally I'd gladly remove the tank's +15 hp buff and tone down its anti armored damage to 60 in exchange for changes to the SH and the viper. However, I think we're too far down the road for the dev team to start making big design decisions.
A good compromise, I think, would be to leave the thor as it is (not go through with the armor buff), but give the SH a light tag to be chased down by hellions, and nerf the locust swoop range to 4 in stead of 6 so that thors can once again be a soft counter to swarm hosts if they're positionned to intercept the locusts. This wouldn't change the SH's ability to stretch mech players defenses, while exposing theirselves to hellions.
Finally, i think that mech shouldn't necessarily be terran "niche" play. By its very design, bio play is very restrictive because the undivisable stim+shileds+medivacs+baracks production+2 ebays upgrades leaves very little space for diversity. Once you payed for the "bio package", you have very little money left to produce other units, which means that bio compositions are always the same. Mech, on the other hand, gives players a lot of choices because they can build whatever they feel like. You don't need to build tanks if you get other units to fill the role the tank usually play. It's not true that swarmhosts deal ''free'' damage tho. Making Swarmhosts is like taking a loan, If I make 10 swarmhost I'm in debt with with 1000/750 and 30 supply, the longer my swarmhosts don't deal damage the more damage they deal to myself cause I took a loan that is not paying off. Swarmhosts becoming more useless every single second that goes by and even a single wrongly send locusts wave can lose you the game. Swarmhosts styles are insanely hard to make work if Terran knows how to abuse the downtimes and knows how to deflect waves or push out during the downtimes. I've lost so many games because I send one wave to harras and then Terran a moved me and I only had one more wave at home which won't be enough to make my swarmhosts cost efficient. Swarmhosts actually need to get really close to do anything, if Locusts wave spawn from too far away you can just ignore it, lift buildings or run away workers/army. The problem is that some mech players have planted this seeds that swarmhosts are simply too strong rather than looking at the solutions of strong players or finding their own too it. I've given you many examples how to deal with swarmhosts. You should try to look at swarmhosts as an opportunity, because they're very gimmicky and a single mistake will kill Zerg. But if you fear a unit and think it's OP or broken design wise it's a self fulfilling prophecy cause you'll stop looking for weaknesses and solutions. I've been in that spot myself many times and once you are in that mindset you'll stop enjoying the game and just keep losing to it. I get what you're meaning but i don't think i have a "despair complex" towards SHs. I don't really have an issue with their balance, i don't think they're OP if the map doesn't allow the zerg player to mass them (big "hallway" maps where you can basically mass SHs behind spore/spines/queens and activate 1/3 of them and constantly swarm the terran player with locusts while banking huge amounts of cash). And actually mech games against SHs on cactus valley are a lot of fun because there's so many pathways to attack. The only problem I see is with their design, and how they make the game devolve into terran pushing out and murdering the zerg because he sent a locust wave the wrong way, or into massive turtling while massing ravens. And by "free" i don't mean that there's no initial investment. You're paying for something that you hope to reimburse through the game, sure. The design issue there is that they can't really be killed. If you compare them to mutas, mech players having a thor in a medivac can not only shoo them away, but kill off one or two if they were damaged by a turret or something. Mutas have a clear downside in the way that they need to get at 3 range to shoot, so you can loose a few of them over the course of the game (so you need to pay for more once in a while). SHs, on the other hand, can only fight 18secs every 30ish secs, but they probably won't ever be killed because only speed banshees can run them down. Giving mech players a different counterplay than either Amoving like morons when they see SHs or build 4 sensors and 200 turrets, by switching the SH to light tag would be a good way to reduce how gimmicky MechvsSH is. There'd be a real map control stake with hellions roaming to catch SHs. My initial point was that would be better than to just buff mech units stats again.
Honestly swarmhosts wouldn't have problems with hellions, you have map control vs Terran anyway if they mech so you can protect them. If you make them light they become stronger not weaker. I could just walk up to tanks in melee range and tank shots like crazy for the rest of my army. So that's not a very good suggestion, you'd be buffing zvt Swarmhosts not nerfing them. Your idea is a huge nerf vs Protoss tho because they'd just die to oracle and adepts and become useless in that matchup, especially cause you can't really afford anti air vs protoss.
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On May 08 2017 01:12 Liquid`TLO wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2017 01:01 JackONeill wrote:On May 07 2017 23:15 Liquid`TLO wrote:On May 07 2017 22:51 JackONeill wrote:
The problem I have with the swarm host isn't balance related, it's design related. From my point of view, any unit dealing damage for free with little to no risk is problematic. You could argue that casters are dealing "free and risk-free" damage, but most casters in the game have to close in to cast their spells (even infested terrans), and somewhat endanger theirselves while doing so.
The SH is basically a X money Y supply investment to get a free doom drop every 43 seconds. And frankly, I don't think that's a bad way to design zerg's mech counter if it didn't mean the best counter is "mass sensor tower turtle into mass ravens" : because the SHs are free, most of the agressive options you can go for are not worthwhile because zerg uses a free army, which means he can replenish drones or switch tech very easily. The problem is that the locusts are free, and that they can also be casted on the main mech army to deal free damage.
This means that terrans needs free, risk-free damage to deflect free, risk-free damage. And if you look at it, both the raven (with the turret and the upgraded seeker) and the BC (with yamato + jump) are based on dealing free damage with very little commitment.
Also, the road blizzard took for mech is giving mech game-breaking stats, while giving other races mech-breaking mechanics. Vipers and SHs are entirely designed to counter mech, while the tank got buffed to a whooping 70dmg, and that the thor maybe gaining +1 armor, adding even more versatility its already all-purpose role.
From there, there's two ways to look at things :
- either we continue increasing the mech units general strength while keeping very strong spells/abilities to specifically counter said mech units
- either we tone down these mechanics and stop buffing the mech units stats
Personnally I'd gladly remove the tank's +15 hp buff and tone down its anti armored damage to 60 in exchange for changes to the SH and the viper. However, I think we're too far down the road for the dev team to start making big design decisions.
A good compromise, I think, would be to leave the thor as it is (not go through with the armor buff), but give the SH a light tag to be chased down by hellions, and nerf the locust swoop range to 4 in stead of 6 so that thors can once again be a soft counter to swarm hosts if they're positionned to intercept the locusts. This wouldn't change the SH's ability to stretch mech players defenses, while exposing theirselves to hellions.
Finally, i think that mech shouldn't necessarily be terran "niche" play. By its very design, bio play is very restrictive because the undivisable stim+shileds+medivacs+baracks production+2 ebays upgrades leaves very little space for diversity. Once you payed for the "bio package", you have very little money left to produce other units, which means that bio compositions are always the same. Mech, on the other hand, gives players a lot of choices because they can build whatever they feel like. You don't need to build tanks if you get other units to fill the role the tank usually play. It's not true that swarmhosts deal ''free'' damage tho. Making Swarmhosts is like taking a loan, If I make 10 swarmhost I'm in debt with with 1000/750 and 30 supply, the longer my swarmhosts don't deal damage the more damage they deal to myself cause I took a loan that is not paying off. Swarmhosts becoming more useless every single second that goes by and even a single wrongly send locusts wave can lose you the game. Swarmhosts styles are insanely hard to make work if Terran knows how to abuse the downtimes and knows how to deflect waves or push out during the downtimes. I've lost so many games because I send one wave to harras and then Terran a moved me and I only had one more wave at home which won't be enough to make my swarmhosts cost efficient. Swarmhosts actually need to get really close to do anything, if Locusts wave spawn from too far away you can just ignore it, lift buildings or run away workers/army. The problem is that some mech players have planted this seeds that swarmhosts are simply too strong rather than looking at the solutions of strong players or finding their own too it. I've given you many examples how to deal with swarmhosts. You should try to look at swarmhosts as an opportunity, because they're very gimmicky and a single mistake will kill Zerg. But if you fear a unit and think it's OP or broken design wise it's a self fulfilling prophecy cause you'll stop looking for weaknesses and solutions. I've been in that spot myself many times and once you are in that mindset you'll stop enjoying the game and just keep losing to it. I get what you're meaning but i don't think i have a "despair complex" towards SHs. I don't really have an issue with their balance, i don't think they're OP if the map doesn't allow the zerg player to mass them (big "hallway" maps where you can basically mass SHs behind spore/spines/queens and activate 1/3 of them and constantly swarm the terran player with locusts while banking huge amounts of cash). And actually mech games against SHs on cactus valley are a lot of fun because there's so many pathways to attack. The only problem I see is with their design, and how they make the game devolve into terran pushing out and murdering the zerg because he sent a locust wave the wrong way, or into massive turtling while massing ravens. And by "free" i don't mean that there's no initial investment. You're paying for something that you hope to reimburse through the game, sure. The design issue there is that they can't really be killed. If you compare them to mutas, mech players having a thor in a medivac can not only shoo them away, but kill off one or two if they were damaged by a turret or something. Mutas have a clear downside in the way that they need to get at 3 range to shoot, so you can loose a few of them over the course of the game (so you need to pay for more once in a while). SHs, on the other hand, can only fight 18secs every 30ish secs, but they probably won't ever be killed because only speed banshees can run them down. Giving mech players a different counterplay than either Amoving like morons when they see SHs or build 4 sensors and 200 turrets, by switching the SH to light tag would be a good way to reduce how gimmicky MechvsSH is. There'd be a real map control stake with hellions roaming to catch SHs. My initial point was that would be better than to just buff mech units stats again. Honestly swarmhosts wouldn't have problems with hellions, you have map control vs Terran anyway if they mech so you can protect them. If you make them light they become stronger not weaker. I could just walk up to tanks in melee range and tank shots like crazy for the rest of my army. So that's not a very good suggestion, you'd be buffing zvt Swarmhosts not nerfing them. Your idea is a huge nerf vs Protoss tho because they'd just die to oracle and adepts and become useless in that matchup, especially cause you can't really afford anti air vs protoss.
The light tag would mean the tanks would 4shot the SH instead of 3 shotting it (in the most usual upgrades situations), so I don't think you could walk into tank fire
And you don't necessarily have "map control" when you're playing versus mech : if you go for roaches, you can't really match the hellion's speed if you want to cover your SH. And if you go for ling they'll get roasted once blue flame is out.
However, you bring fair points for PvZ since people started using them in this matchup. Phenixes would also kill SH very fast. A light tag would suck for PvZ indeed.
I'm confident that at some point, blizz will be forced to look into the SH situation, and just buffing thor's armor won't really change much. They may survive fast attack units better, but since vipers can still grab them, i feel that once zergs identify every mech player will start getting more and more thors they'll go back to rushing vipers with roach hydras like in HOTS.
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in general, i find there is too much Adept usage and not enough Zealots. I'm in favour of another small nerf to Adepts and if it weakens Protoss too much please buff Zealots.
DISCLAIMER: i play as Random and Terran in NA Diamond.
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On May 08 2017 21:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
in general, i find there is too much Adept usage and not enough Zealots. I'm in favour of another small nerf to Adepts and if it weakens Protoss too much please buff Zealots.
DISCLAIMER: i play as Random and Terran in NA Diamond.
I'm extremely glad blizzard doesn't balance around how players "feel"
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On May 08 2017 21:28 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2017 21:07 JimmyJRaynor wrote:
in general, i find there is too much Adept usage and not enough Zealots. I'm in favour of another small nerf to Adepts and if it weakens Protoss too much please buff Zealots.
DISCLAIMER: i play as Random and Terran in NA Diamond. I'm extremely glad blizzard doesn't balance around how players "feel"
Yeah having fun is stupid, balance numbers being 50-50 is much more important
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Adding to the discussion about Mech in TvZ... "The Lament of the Floating Factory"
Mech is a Bad Strategic Decision in TvZ
Here's the issue: going the Mech route is simply a poor decision at any time, even if you gain an early advantage. For all the talk of how Mech has certain points of strength, here is a simple fact: no GSL level Korean Terran is going mech in any form right now, whether for cheese or macro builds. Why? Because it is strategically limited. There is no surprise factor to it. Bio is always better. Now, before someone hears me "complaining that bio is too good", here's what I'm actually saying: either Mech should have strategic variations and greater potential to be out on the map getting something done, or Mech should be dropped as an idea and all the rest of the Terran units should be reworked to support bio.
Terran has no Strategic Diversity
My main problem with the way Terran is designed now in LOTV is just that: strategic limitations. There is no way to surprise your opponent, whether in the early, mid, or late game with your tech choice. Obvious work was done in LOTV to give Zerg the ability to be aggressive and throw off the opponent in the early and mid-game with things such as single-overlord drops, fast ravagers, burrowed infestors, and invincible building nydus worms. I like this, I think it adds both strategic variation and more interesting games.
Terran Design has been Stagnant for a Long Time
I've been playing Terran for 7 years in SC2, and I'm still building Marines, Marauders, and Medivacs and trying to manage multi-pronged drops. This is still the single best way to throw my opponent off balance. Look, this is a cool thing. It's an interesting design and it has both potential for great damage and for great loss. But there should be more to the race than this. Yes, mines and liberators have made this stronger, but the core of gameplay is still 1 dimensional for Terran.
Effort has been Made to Address this Issue in the Past, and Should be Made Now
There was at least a small attempt at addressing this issue in the Herc. This unit both added a tanking function to a barracks army and, when paired with a reaper, unique early-game back-door harassment capability. The Herc failed as a unit, but I have seen no effort at diversifying Early and Mid-game options for Terran since then. Perhaps a single-bunker upgrade to higher capacity, or a change to the Hellbat to make it function better with bio. (Maybe Hellbats found all the dead Herc's grappling hooks? ) Whatever the case, there is too little diversity in the matchup, and this is true for both TvZ and TvP.
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On May 08 2017 23:38 Ransomstarcraft wrote:
Adding to the discussion about Mech in TvZ... "The Lament of the Floating Factory"
Mech is a Bad Strategic Decision in TvZ
Here's the issue: going the Mech route is simply a poor decision at any time, even if you gain an early advantage. For all the talk of how Mech has certain points of strength, here is a simple fact: no GSL level Korean Terran is going mech in any form right now, whether for cheese or macro builds. Why? Because it is strategically limited. There is no surprise factor to it. Bio is always better. Now, before someone hears me "complaining that bio is too good", here's what I'm actually saying: either Mech should have strategic variations and greater potential to be out on the map getting something done, or Mech should be dropped as an idea and all the rest of the Terran units should be reworked to support bio.
I mean, mech units are pretty strong in their own. If they get in a good position, they'll chew up a lot of army. Bio definitely is more mobile, but lacks some of the staying power that a mech army has. You basically sacrifice mobility for firepower
Terran has no Strategic Diversity
My main problem with the way Terran is designed now in LOTV is just that: strategic limitations. There is no way to surprise your opponent, whether in the early, mid, or late game with your tech choice. Obvious work was done in LOTV to give Zerg the ability to be aggressive and throw off the opponent in the early and mid-game with things such as single-overlord drops, fast ravagers, burrowed infestors, and invincible building nydus worms. I like this, I think it adds both strategic variation and more interesting games.
This one I don't get. You can open reapers, open hellions, open cc first, open with cloaked banshees. There are a lot of ways to open and transition into a later army. T can drop, use banshees, a run by, or Raven turrets to harass in a lot of different ways.
Terran Design has been Stagnant for a Long Time
I've been playing Terran for 7 years in SC2, and I'm still building Marines, Marauders, and Medivacs and trying to manage multi-pronged drops. This is still the single best way to throw my opponent off balance. Look, this is a cool thing. It's an interesting design and it has both potential for great damage and for great loss. But there should be more to the race than this. Yes, mines and liberators have made this stronger, but the core of gameplay is still 1 dimensional for Terran.
Those units synergize well together. They moved at about the same speed, shoot at about the same distance, and benefit from the same upgrades.
It's the exact same reason you see people doing roach Hydra, or ling bling, because things that benefit one, benefit the other.
Effort has been Made to Address this Issue in the Past, and Should be Made NowThere was at least a small attempt at addressing this issue in the Herc. This unit both added a tanking function to a barracks army and, when paired with a reaper, unique early-game back-door harassment capability. The Herc failed as a unit, but I have seen no effort at diversifying Early and Mid-game options for Terran since then. Perhaps a single-bunker upgrade to higher capacity, or a change to the Hellbat to make it function better with bio. (Maybe Hellbats found all the dead Herc's grappling hooks? ) Whatever the case, there is too little diversity in the matchup, and this is true for both TvZ and TvP.
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And this is where we disagree on design principles. I don't think bio or mech should be able to do everything. You sacrifice health for mobility (bio) or sacrifice mobility for a ton of HP and burst damage (mech). Just like with LBM, you have a ton of fast, weak units. If I want more staying power, I'd go roach Hydra.
I feel like there already are a lot of openings and possibilities. Just because you don't like some doesn't mean they aren't there.
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On May 08 2017 23:38 Ransomstarcraft wrote:Adding to the discussion about Mech in TvZ... "The Lament of the Floating Factory" Mech is a Bad Strategic Decision in TvZHere's the issue: going the Mech route is simply a poor decision at any time, even if you gain an early advantage. For all the talk of how Mech has certain points of strength, here is a simple fact: no GSL level Korean Terran is going mech in any form right now, whether for cheese or macro builds. Why? Because it is strategically limited. There is no surprise factor to it. Bio is always better. Now, before someone hears me "complaining that bio is too good", here's what I'm actually saying: either Mech should have strategic variations and greater potential to be out on the map getting something done, or Mech should be dropped as an idea and all the rest of the Terran units should be reworked to support bio. Terran has no Strategic DiversityMy main problem with the way Terran is designed now in LOTV is just that: strategic limitations. There is no way to surprise your opponent, whether in the early, mid, or late game with your tech choice. Obvious work was done in LOTV to give Zerg the ability to be aggressive and throw off the opponent in the early and mid-game with things such as single-overlord drops, fast ravagers, burrowed infestors, and invincible building nydus worms. I like this, I think it adds both strategic variation and more interesting games. Terran Design has been Stagnant for a Long TimeI've been playing Terran for 7 years in SC2, and I'm still building Marines, Marauders, and Medivacs and trying to manage multi-pronged drops. This is still the single best way to throw my opponent off balance. Look, this is a cool thing. It's an interesting design and it has both potential for great damage and for great loss. But there should be more to the race than this. Yes, mines and liberators have made this stronger, but the core of gameplay is still 1 dimensional for Terran. Effort has been Made to Address this Issue in the Past, and Should be Made NowThere was at least a small attempt at addressing this issue in the Herc. This unit both added a tanking function to a barracks army and, when paired with a reaper, unique early-game back-door harassment capability. The Herc failed as a unit, but I have seen no effort at diversifying Early and Mid-game options for Terran since then. Perhaps a single-bunker upgrade to higher capacity, or a change to the Hellbat to make it function better with bio. (Maybe Hellbats found all the dead Herc's grappling hooks? ) Whatever the case, there is too little diversity in the matchup, and this is true for both TvZ and TvP.
I can get behind most of what you're saying, but I don't really agree with the point that "you can't surprise" with mech. Actually, mech has much more surprise potential than bio :
- hellbats allins
- hellion drops
- mine drops
- heavy banshee/cloack banshee
- lib range rush
- raven harass
- viking killing overlords into hellion drops
- 2 reactored factories hellions/cyclones
- 1 reactored factory hellions/1 reactored starport liberators for a 6 hellions 2 liberators push
- probably much more
That's one of the cool things in MechVZerg : your opponent has to scout if he want to prevent heavy losses from some kind of agression.
However I do think that these options are often too much of a hit or miss. If you deal damage with your 2 bases agression, you're in a good spot or a very good spot in some instance, but if you don't you're in a dire situation.
I'm not a big fan of mech (or bio actually) being so reliant on terran dealing damage early game. The matchup has always been about terran "containing" the zerg's economy by the time his third base is completing, but right now it's either you kill 10+ drones and you're in a good spot, or deal very little damage and be in a terrible spot. There's no alternative, and that's kind of sad.
Compared to TvP or TvT, TvZ often feels like a non stop stream of terran agression and a constant zerg defense. And don't get me wrong i like being agressive like any terran, but it'd be nice if terran could actually be played so other way. Mech could be that playstyle, but you actually need to be extremely agressive when playing mech if you don't want to end up facing the entire zerg mech-killing-swissknife.
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On May 09 2017 01:27 reneg wrote:
And this is where we disagree on design principles. I don't think bio or mech should be able to do everything. You sacrifice health for mobility (bio) or sacrifice mobility for a ton of HP and burst damage (mech). Just like with LBM, you have a ton of fast, weak units. If I want more staying power, I'd go roach Hydra.
i agree, good analogy
also, Mech isn't a race. its a subset of units within a race.
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On May 08 2017 23:38 Ransomstarcraft wrote:Adding to the discussion about Mech in TvZ... "The Lament of the Floating Factory" Mech is a Bad Strategic Decision in TvZHere's the issue: going the Mech route is simply a poor decision at any time, even if you gain an early advantage. For all the talk of how Mech has certain points of strength, here is a simple fact: no GSL level Korean Terran is going mech in any form right now, whether for cheese or macro builds. Why? Because it is strategically limited. There is no surprise factor to it. Bio is always better. Now, before someone hears me "complaining that bio is too good", here's what I'm actually saying: either Mech should have strategic variations and greater potential to be out on the map getting something done, or Mech should be dropped as an idea and all the rest of the Terran units should be reworked to support bio. Terran has no Strategic DiversityMy main problem with the way Terran is designed now in LOTV is just that: strategic limitations. There is no way to surprise your opponent, whether in the early, mid, or late game with your tech choice. Obvious work was done in LOTV to give Zerg the ability to be aggressive and throw off the opponent in the early and mid-game with things such as single-overlord drops, fast ravagers, burrowed infestors, and invincible building nydus worms. I like this, I think it adds both strategic variation and more interesting games. Terran Design has been Stagnant for a Long TimeI've been playing Terran for 7 years in SC2, and I'm still building Marines, Marauders, and Medivacs and trying to manage multi-pronged drops. This is still the single best way to throw my opponent off balance. Look, this is a cool thing. It's an interesting design and it has both potential for great damage and for great loss. But there should be more to the race than this. Yes, mines and liberators have made this stronger, but the core of gameplay is still 1 dimensional for Terran. Effort has been Made to Address this Issue in the Past, and Should be Made NowThere was at least a small attempt at addressing this issue in the Herc. This unit both added a tanking function to a barracks army and, when paired with a reaper, unique early-game back-door harassment capability. The Herc failed as a unit, but I have seen no effort at diversifying Early and Mid-game options for Terran since then. Perhaps a single-bunker upgrade to higher capacity, or a change to the Hellbat to make it function better with bio. (Maybe Hellbats found all the dead Herc's grappling hooks? ) Whatever the case, there is too little diversity in the matchup, and this is true for both TvZ and TvP.
Terran is not less limited than Zerg. Also this is not really as big of a problem as you make it out to be. It is not a balance problem, since the winrates are ok. The main reason however is that mech is a miserable boring turtle composition that is inherently a deathball comp and also a comp that cannot deal with losing units at all, which leads to less interesting games. A critical mass is required and retreats are basically impossible.
Mech is completely viable at anything but pro level btw. If you want to try it on ladder you will probably do better than with bio because mech is easier to pull of mechanically.
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On May 09 2017 01:27 reneg wrote:
And this is where we disagree on design principles. I don't think bio or mech should be able to do everything. You sacrifice health for mobility (bio) or sacrifice mobility for a ton of HP and burst damage (mech). Just like with LBM, you have a ton of fast, weak units. If I want more staying power, I'd go roach Hydra.
I feel like there already are a lot of openings and possibilities. Just because you don't like some doesn't mean they aren't there. [/QUOTE]
I'm fine with neither bio nor mech being able to "do everything". My preference would be for Mech to exist as a viable strategy similar to the way Roach/Ravager, Roach/Hydra, or Hydra/Lurker exists. I simply found it strange that this thread had developed into some sort of idea like "oh yeah, Mech kind of does work vs. Zerg." As the game stands right now it is possible to see just about any Zerg unit in a top-level ZvT, where those units are cohesive and work well together. Effort has been made to give Zerg both unit diversity and strategic diversity, and this has been very creatively applied in such cases as single-overlord drops and invincible-building Nydus worms. Meanwhile, you will never see around a third of the Terran units, and this is because Terran has design problems and strategic limitations.
Mech is a bad move in TvZ because, as has been mentioned, if your surprise attack fails or is countered you generally lose the game. If you hellion all-in and he makes Roaches or Mutas, the game is over. This is because Mech AA is so expensive and one-dimensional (Slow/powerful) that you can't get aggressive units and have any options for Anti-air at the same time. Imagine if, when the Zerg went Muta, you were already going for Thor tech, and that meant the game was over for the Zerg. This is how mech works right now for Terrans.
My core argument is simply this: either Mech should be a risk-comparable-to-rewards strategy that makes use of these units that are extremely niche (Thor, Hellbat, Hellion to an extent), or the Factory & Starport setup needs to be rethought to support Terran Bio compositions comparable to the way the Robo supports all Protoss compositions. At the moment the Balance Team seems to be working to make the first option happen, though changing the Thor's armor will do nothing but encourage the "Turtle to victory" style that I don't have much interest in.
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On May 08 2017 00:09 Ej_ wrote:
This week in Community Feedback Update: Master Terrans teaching TLO about TvZ
This week in teamliquid, Ej_ showing off his yet again negative emotions towards other people.
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EPT
