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Terran is not less limited than Zerg. Also this is not really as big of a problem as you make it out to be. It is not a balance problem, since the winrates are ok. The main reason however is that mech is a miserable boring turtle composition that is inherently a deathball comp and also a comp that cannot deal with losing units at all, which leads to less interesting games. A critical mass is required and retreats are basically impossible.
The double standard here is rich. European zergs regularly play the most cancerous turtle styles and apparently that's A-ok. But when terrans want a defensive playstyle to become viable, suddenly turtling is the worst thing ever.
Meanwhile, pretty much every zerg unit, including the much maligned corruptor sees play in standard games as part of standard compositions, whereas terran still has several units that find no place in any standard composition (Thor, Hellion/Hellbat, Cyclone, Banshee) outside of harass openers or dumb cheeses.
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Russian Federation40190 Posts
On May 09 2017 07:32 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +Terran is not less limited than Zerg. Also this is not really as big of a problem as you make it out to be. It is not a balance problem, since the winrates are ok. The main reason however is that mech is a miserable boring turtle composition that is inherently a deathball comp and also a comp that cannot deal with losing units at all, which leads to less interesting games. A critical mass is required and retreats are basically impossible.
The double standard here is rich. European zergs regularly play the most cancerous turtle styles and apparently that's A-ok. But when terrans want a defensive playstyle to become viable, suddenly turtling is the worst thing ever. Meanwhile, pretty much every zerg unit, including the much maligned corruptor sees play in standard games as part of standard compositions, whereas terran still has several units that find no place in any standard composition (Thor, Hellion/Hellbat, Cyclone, Banshee) outside of harass openers or dumb cheeses.
Did you just mention that hellbat find no place in any standard composition? Damn, i must have been missing out on some, some friends of mines still rolled stuff with hellbat thor timings last time i checked.
Also, european zergs generally do not whine on forums asking to nerf whatever makes their cancer less convinient to play. Hell, Stephano made a point to get SHs nerfed back in early HotS, didn't he.
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Did you just mention that hellbat find no place in any standard composition? Damn, i must have been missing out on some, some friends of mines still rolled stuff with hellbat thor timings last time i checked.
Not at the pro-level, no? Maybe if mech were viable (and Gumiho playing it occasionally on Newkirk doesn't make it viable) it'd be a different story, but as it is you only see them as part of early timings.
Also, european zergs generally do not whine on forums asking to nerf whatever makes their cancer less convinient to play. Hell, Stephano made a point to get SHs nerfed back in early HotS, didn't he.
Why would they? Those playstyles work at the highest level and have for years. What, exactly, is there to complain about?
That isn't to say that the calls to nerf swarm hosts are valid, but the more general sentiment of wanting more unit diversity deserves more than a dumb "lawl, you just want to turtle into deathball" response, which is especially lame coming from zergs.
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On May 09 2017 07:32 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +Terran is not less limited than Zerg. Also this is not really as big of a problem as you make it out to be. It is not a balance problem, since the winrates are ok. The main reason however is that mech is a miserable boring turtle composition that is inherently a deathball comp and also a comp that cannot deal with losing units at all, which leads to less interesting games. A critical mass is required and retreats are basically impossible.
The double standard here is rich. European zergs regularly play the most cancerous turtle styles and apparently that's A-ok. But when terrans want a defensive playstyle to become viable, suddenly turtling is the worst thing ever. Meanwhile, pretty much every zerg unit, including the much maligned corruptor sees play in standard games as part of standard compositions, whereas terran still has several units that find no place in any standard composition (Thor, Hellion/Hellbat, Cyclone, Banshee) outside of harass openers or dumb cheeses.
I've heard Beastyqt say this a lot of times and i agree totally.
First of all being turtly and passive has little to do with race or composition choice. It's about style. Thorzain was known to play very passive turtly gameplay with bio. In TvZ, you can be extremely turtly if you want to with MMMtanks into ghost/liberators. I've seen a lot of top masters/low GM zerg players play lings banes mutas without ever attacking, just taking bases and spreading creep.
However, metas crystalise into turtly and passive play when some late game units or compositions grant a massive advantage over the opponent. Historically, that has always been zerg or protoss. It's been very rare to see eras when terran (and terran mech) was very advantaged at some realistically rushable point in the late game, except maybe for HOTS after the SH nerf.
Saying playing mech is boring is therefore quite rich from zerg players. Whether it was BLfestor during WOL, ultra rushes during LOTV, or SH cancer strats during HOTS, zerg pretty much always had passive, boring and turtly styles be common meta. TvZ historically always has been about terran needing to attack and inducing rythm. What mech does (or should be doing) is simply reversing roles.
Also, saying mech "should even exist" or "be used as a composition" or "stay niche play" doesn't make sense. The way terran and bio are designed, units will be bound to be used as anectodic additions, since bio play requires such a "by default" investment that you have very little freedom and variety concerning what other units you can build. Terran having a whole batch of units (hellbats cyclones banshees ravens thors for instance) be extremely rarely used in regular compositions is normal when you're playing bio. However if mech isn't played, we end up never really see these units get some use.
We've seen a whole lot of different zerg ZvT compositions lately, and it's been very exciting. Pro players have shown hydra/lurkers, lings bane hydras, lings bane mutas, roach ravagers into ultra, roach ravagers infestor, etc. Terran being pigeonholed into MMMM+libs or MMM+tanks every single game in every single matchup is a problem for terran diversity.
And i've never seen anyone not be excited seing innovation or gumiho play mech in LOTV.
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On May 09 2017 08:24 JackONeill wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2017 07:32 Athenau wrote:Terran is not less limited than Zerg. Also this is not really as big of a problem as you make it out to be. It is not a balance problem, since the winrates are ok. The main reason however is that mech is a miserable boring turtle composition that is inherently a deathball comp and also a comp that cannot deal with losing units at all, which leads to less interesting games. A critical mass is required and retreats are basically impossible.
The double standard here is rich. European zergs regularly play the most cancerous turtle styles and apparently that's A-ok. But when terrans want a defensive playstyle to become viable, suddenly turtling is the worst thing ever. Meanwhile, pretty much every zerg unit, including the much maligned corruptor sees play in standard games as part of standard compositions, whereas terran still has several units that find no place in any standard composition (Thor, Hellion/Hellbat, Cyclone, Banshee) outside of harass openers or dumb cheeses. I've heard Beastyqt say this a lot of times and i agree totally. First of all being turtly and passive has little to do with race or composition choice. It's about style. Thorzain was known to play very passive turtly gameplay with bio. In TvZ, you can be extremely turtly if you want to with MMMtanks into ghost/liberators. I've seen a lot of top masters/low GM zerg players play lings banes mutas without ever attacking, just taking bases and spreading creep. However, metas crystalise into turtly and passive play when some late game units or compositions grant a massive advantage over the opponent. Historically, that has always been zerg or protoss. It's been very rare to see eras when terran (and terran mech) was very advantaged at some realistically rushable point in the late game, except maybe for HOTS after the SH nerf. Saying playing mech is boring is therefore quite rich from zerg players. Whether it was BLfestor during WOL, ultra rushes during LOTV, or SH cancer strats during HOTS, zerg pretty much always had passive, boring and turtly styles be common meta. TvZ historically always has been about terran needing to attack and inducing rythm. What mech does (or should be doing) is simply reversing roles. Also, saying mech "should even exist" or "be used as a composition" or "stay niche play" doesn't make sense. The way terran and bio are designed, units will be bound to be used as anectodic additions, since bio play requires such a "by default" investment that you have very little freedom and variety concerning what other units you can build. Terran having a whole batch of units (hellbats cyclones banshees ravens thors for instance) be extremely rarely used in regular compositions is normal when you're playing bio. However if mech isn't played, we end up never really see these units get some use. We've seen a whole lot of different zerg ZvT compositions lately, and it's been very exciting. Pro players have shown hydra/lurkers, lings bane hydras, lings bane mutas, roach ravagers into ultra, roach ravagers infestor, etc. Terran being pigeonholed into MMMM+libs or MMM+tanks every single game in every single matchup is a problem for terran diversity. And i've never seen anyone not be excited seing innovation or gumiho play mech in LOTV.
this post is fucking fire
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i wish every feedback thread didnt turn into a 10 page argument for mech/against mech or swarmhosts
the reason mech is bad is because every unit that comes from the factory is terrible and theres honestly not more to it than that. so much theorycrafting goes on
really think we need to take an honest look at the factory and recognize it for what it is, a building that cranks out poorly thought out terran units that this videogame was not balanced around
rax + starport is the game now, and its expressly because of the ideas the developers had for this game/what they wanted. we should really just be asking for factory units to be moved to the starport, because then they might be designed by someone who doesnt completely hate terran
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On May 09 2017 08:57 c0sm0naut wrote:
i wish every feedback thread didnt turn into a 10 page argument for mech/against mech or swarmhosts
the reason mech is bad is because every unit that comes from the factory is terrible and theres honestly not more to it than that. so much theorycrafting goes on
really think we need to take an honest look at the factory and recognize it for what it is, a building that cranks out poorly thought out terran units that this videogame was not balanced around
rax + starport is the game now, and its expressly because of the ideas the developers had for this game/what they wanted. we should really just be asking for factory units to be moved to the starport, because then they might be designed by someone who doesnt completely hate terran
This type of wild hyperbole is the problem.
Just because you want to go mech, doesn't mean you should just skip the other production facilities when trying to build a well rounded army.
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On May 09 2017 09:20 reneg wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2017 08:57 c0sm0naut wrote:
i wish every feedback thread didnt turn into a 10 page argument for mech/against mech or swarmhosts
the reason mech is bad is because every unit that comes from the factory is terrible and theres honestly not more to it than that. so much theorycrafting goes on
really think we need to take an honest look at the factory and recognize it for what it is, a building that cranks out poorly thought out terran units that this videogame was not balanced around
rax + starport is the game now, and its expressly because of the ideas the developers had for this game/what they wanted. we should really just be asking for factory units to be moved to the starport, because then they might be designed by someone who doesnt completely hate terran This type of wild hyperbole is the problem.
maybe its hyperbolized but the reality is that factory units are worse than any other units in the game and unfortunately, blizzard has tied Bio's solution to ling/bane/muta and other styles to the widow mine
i hate knowing that i have 20+ supply totally wasted in these units late game and watching enemy units drag splash onto mine (while being perfectly aware that if i ditched widow mines i would be completely overrun by adepts/LBM)
BW siege tank == worth building
BW goliath == if you need it, always worth building
widow mine? maybe it kills your army
widow mine? maybe your units arent sitting directly on top of them at all times, and you end up with 10 supply of your army which does not benefit from upgrades, triggered on lings, doing nothing and costing you factory time
cyclone? cant even kill an oracle if the oracle flies into lock on range, sits there for two seconds and then starts flying away. terrible early game, check. even worse late game, check. gotta be a factory unit!
hellions? useful for the first 2 minutes of every tvz
"yeah i know splash could kill your own units in sc1. but what if it could REALLY kill your own units in sc2??"
the actual tvp meta before blizzard nerfed mindless adept strats^
id like to personally thank you though, for making me think deeper about this problem and realize that in fact i was right, factory units are designed to be bad but necessary
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I love having these discussions, I really do. + Show Spoiler +
On May 09 2017 07:32 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +Terran is not less limited than Zerg. Also this is not really as big of a problem as you make it out to be. It is not a balance problem, since the winrates are ok. The main reason however is that mech is a miserable boring turtle composition that is inherently a deathball comp and also a comp that cannot deal with losing units at all, which leads to less interesting games. A critical mass is required and retreats are basically impossible.
The double standard here is rich. European zergs regularly play the most cancerous turtle styles and apparently that's A-ok. But when terrans want a defensive playstyle to become viable, suddenly turtling is the worst thing ever. Meanwhile, pretty much every zerg unit, including the much maligned corruptor sees play in standard games as part of standard compositions, whereas terran still has several units that find no place in any standard composition (Thor, Hellion/Hellbat, Cyclone, Banshees) outside of harass openers or dumb cheeses.
On May 09 2017 08:20 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +Did you just mention that hellbat find no place in any standard composition? Damn, i must have been missing out on some, some friends of mines still rolled stuff with hellbat thor timings last time i checked. Not that the pro-level, no? Maybe if mech were viable (and Gumiho playing it occasionally on Newkirk doesn't make it viable) it'd be a different story, but as it is you only see them as part of early timings. Show nested quote +Also, european zergs generally do not whine on forums asking to nerf whatever makes their cancer less convinient to play. Hell, Stephano made a point to get SHs nerfed back in early HotS, didn't he. Why would they? Those playstyles work at the highest level and have for years. What, exactly, is there to complain about? That isn't to say that the calls to nerf swarm hosts are valid, but the more general sentiment of wanting more unit diversity deserves more than a dumb "lawl, you just want to turtle into deathball" response, which is especially lame coming from zergs.
"Maybe if Mech were viable..." Hello?
There's plenty of unit diversity in the game, even for Terran Mech players who pretend otherwise. For Zerg, the only "standard" composition is Ling Bane in the first few minutes or Roach Ravager, everything else is some amalgamation of units dictated by the enemy comp and tech. For Protoss it's not just Adept Phoenix, all kinds of combinations of Stalkers, Sentries, Immortals, Archons, Oracles, etc. are seen all over the place, and Zealot Archon with supporting units is seen quite often too. For Terran, Thors are used extremely often to very effectively defend against Mutalisks or to add standing power to an aggressive army outside of using Siege Tanks; Hellions are used in timing attacks, harassing, as well as in mobile Mech army compositions to chase down Zerg and to push back Creep; Cyclones are used as a core Mech unit in timing attacks and as support units; and Banshees, while not as popular right now despite being very powerful against Swarm Hosts that are supposedly the be-all-end-all of Mech players, have always been the same: timing attacks, "cheese strats", quick assassinations/harassment, and to support AA-heavy Air armies; and I haven't even covered Reapers, Widow Mines, Vikings, Ravens, or Battlecruisers, and the obvious MMM which are seen frequently and are completely viable to use in several kinds of situations. + Show Spoiler +Or, perhaps I should say, can be used in these ways at various skill levels from Bronze to Masters, but supposedly are not.
Where's the problem with all of those options, exactly? That all of them aren't seen all the time at the absolute highest level of play? With the tiny number of players at that level, some of them are going to be drawn more to Bio than to Mech, but even then Innovation still uses Mech and a big chunk of the top Korean Terrans did for ages, but they're also known to be the absolute least creative players out there and that hasn't changed a whole lot so it's expected to see similar things from them each time and see their opponent respond in similar ways each time.
Lastly, the majority of vocal Terran players who prefer Mech-based armies and slower, area of control strategies actively demand nerfs for anything that threatens them as well as actively demand buffs for any unit they don't feel is supremely powerful. Zergs and Protoss don't do this. There's no double standard here, Terrans aren't pigeon-holed into anything because of game design right now, as I see it they put themselves in their own artificial corner.
On May 09 2017 08:24 JackONeill wrote:
Saying playing mech is boring is therefore quite rich from zerg players. Whether it was BLfestor during WOL, ultra rushes during LOTV, or SH cancer strats during HOTS, zerg pretty much always had passive, boring and turtly styles be common meta. TvZ historically always has been about terran needing to attack and inducing rythm. What mech does (or should be doing) is simply reversing roles.
Interesting. From I recall of SC2 history, TvZ is actually about fast-paced, technical, make-one-hiccup-and-you-lose battles, starting out with a bang with Marines in Bunkers or Reapers or Hellions zipping around the map to beat back the Zerg Rush and Baneling or Roach onslaughts and getting more hectic from there until both players reach an awkward stalemate in the late game with a split map, not purposefully turtling from the get-go by Zergs. Zerg was always focused on aggression and all-ins (who knows how many early Pool Ling or Spine rushes and 3-11 Roach timings) to force the game to end early on or Brood Lord Infestor (the build made to be used against Mech), while Terrans were focused on Bunker rushes (followed by a transition into economic, defensive play into the mid and late game, from what I remember it involved a lot of walls and Planetaries), Proxy Rax, fast expands, double Factory Mech, and Marine Hellion into Siege Tanks and Starports.
The slower, everyone-hated-it-especially-the-Zerg-players ZvT of Swarm Hosts, countless Spores, Queens, and Brood Lords stemmed from and was balanced the way it was because of the surge of Mech play and mass PF or OC, Ravens with Turrets, extreme area denial Siege Tanks and WM, etc. forcing sluggish, gruelingly long games, getting more and more powerful, more rewarding for passive players in HotS, in large part because of the economy (Mules for Terran with old Minerals) and map design of the time. Those strategies are definitely not seen anymore on the Zerg end, at least I haven't seen them, and no Zerg or Protoss wants anything to do with that, but a big piece of the (vocal) Terran audience advocates for it despite already having options for both Bio and Mech. They don't ask for diversity, they demand to be all-powerful above and beyond everyone else and cite their shortcomings as individuals or refer to gameplay environments from a generation ago when talking about balance as if that's what dictates game design.
On May 09 2017 08:24 JackONeill wrote:
i've never seen anyone not be excited seing innovation or gumiho play mech in LOTV.
It's because they don't force themselves to play defensively and will use Mech units in an active way that is fun to watch and they play intelligently, the former facets made possible because of better economic design and better overall unit design and balance in LotV, the latter because they're skilled players and smart individuals, of course.
---
That's how I see things, at least. If I contradicted myself or made a bad typo somewhere feel free to let me know, I did a good heap of condensing my writing into something... less convoluted, let's say.
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On May 09 2017 09:54 blunderfulguy wrote:
[spoiler]I love having these discussions, I really do. + Show Spoiler +Sometimes. + Show Spoiler +Well, okay not very often tbh they get old fast...  On May 09 2017 07:32 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +Terran is not less limited than Zerg. Also this is not really as big of a problem as you make it out to be. It is not a balance problem, since the winrates are ok. The main reason however is that mech is a miserable boring turtle composition that is inherently a deathball comp and also a comp that cannot deal with losing units at all, which leads to less interesting games. A critical mass is required and retreats are basically impossible.
The double standard here is rich. European zergs regularly play the most cancerous turtle styles and apparently that's A-ok. But when terrans want a defensive playstyle to become viable, suddenly turtling is the worst thing ever. Meanwhile, pretty much every zerg unit, including the much maligned corruptor sees play in standard games as part of standard compositions, whereas terran still has several units that find no place in any standard composition (Thor, Hellion/Hellbat, Cyclone, Banshees) outside of harass openers or dumb cheeses. On May 09 2017 08:20 Athenau wrote:Show nested quote +Did you just mention that hellbat find no place in any standard composition? Damn, i must have been missing out on some, some friends of mines still rolled stuff with hellbat thor timings last time i checked. Not that the pro-level, no? Maybe if mech were viable (and Gumiho playing it occasionally on Newkirk doesn't make it viable) it'd be a different story, but as it is you only see them as part of early timings. Show nested quote +Also, european zergs generally do not whine on forums asking to nerf whatever makes their cancer less convinient to play. Hell, Stephano made a point to get SHs nerfed back in early HotS, didn't he. Why would they? Those playstyles work at the highest level and have for years. What, exactly, is there to complain about? That isn't to say that the calls to nerf swarm hosts are valid, but the more general sentiment of wanting more unit diversity deserves more than a dumb "lawl, you just want to turtle into deathball" response, which is especially lame coming from zergs. "Maybe if Mech were viable..." Hello? There's plenty of unit diversity in the game, even for Terran Mech players who pretend otherwise. For Zerg, the only "standard" composition is Ling Bane in the first few minutes or Roach Ravager, everything else is some amalgamation of units dictated by the enemy comp and tech. For Protoss it's not just Adept Phoenix, all kinds of combinations of Stalkers, Sentries, Immortals, Archons, Oracles, etc. are seen all over the place, and Zealot Archon with supporting units is seen quite often too. For Terran, Thors are used extremely often to very effectively defend against Mutalisks or to add standing power to an aggressive army outside of using Siege Tanks; Hellions are used in timing attacks, harassing, as well as in mobile Mech army compositions to chase down Zerg and to push back Creep; Cyclones are used as a core Mech unit in timing attacks and as support units; and Banshees, while not as popular right now despite being very powerful against Swarm Hosts that are supposedly the be-all-end-all of Mech players, have always been the same: timing attacks, "cheese strats", quick assassinations/harassment, and to support AA-heavy Air armies; and I haven't even covered Reapers, Widow Mines, Vikings, Ravens, or Battlecruisers, and the obvious MMM which are seen frequently and are completely viable to use in several kinds of situations. + Show Spoiler +Or, perhaps I should say, can be used in these ways at various skill levels from Bronze to Masters, but supposedly are not. Where's the problem with all of those options, exactly? That all of them aren't seen all the time at the absolute highest level of play? With the tiny number of players at that level, some of them are going to be drawn more to Bio than to Mech, but even then Innovation still uses Mech and a big chunk of the top Korean Terrans did for ages, but they're also known to be the absolute least creative players out there and that hasn't changed a whole lot so it's expected to see similar things from them each time and see their opponent respond in similar ways each time. Lastly, the majority of vocal Terran players who prefer Mech-based armies and slower, area of control strategies actively demand nerfs for anything that threatens them as well as actively demand buffs for any unit they don't feel is supremely powerful. Zergs and Protoss don't do this. There's no double standard here, Terrans aren't pigeon-holed into anything because of game design right now, as I see it they put themselves in their own artificial corner. On May 09 2017 08:24 JackONeill wrote:
Saying playing mech is boring is therefore quite rich from zerg players. Whether it was BLfestor during WOL, ultra rushes during LOTV, or SH cancer strats during HOTS, zerg pretty much always had passive, boring and turtly styles be common meta. TvZ historically always has been about terran needing to attack and inducing rythm. What mech does (or should be doing) is simply reversing roles. Interesting. From I recall of SC2 history, TvZ is actually about fast-paced, technical, make-one-hiccup-and-you-lose battles, starting out with a bang with Marines in Bunkers or Reapers or Hellions zipping around the map to beat back the Zerg Rush and Baneling or Roach onslaughts and getting more hectic from there until both players reach an awkward stalemate in the late game with a split map, not purposefully turtling from the get-go by Zergs. Zerg was always focused on aggression and all-ins (who knows how many early Pool Ling or Spine rushes and 3-11 Roach timings) to force the game to end early on or Brood Lord Infestor ( the build made to be used against Mech), while Terrans were focused on Bunker rushes (followed by a transition into economic, defensive play into the mid and late game, from what I remember it involved a lot of walls and Planetaries), Proxy Rax, fast expands, double Factory Mech, and Marine Hellion into Siege Tanks and Starports. The slower, everyone-hated-it-especially-the-Zerg-players ZvT of Swarm Hosts, countless Spores, Queens, and Brood Lords stemmed from and was balanced the way it was because of the surge of Mech play and mass PF or OC, Ravens with Turrets, extreme area denial Siege Tanks and WM, etc. forcing sluggish, gruelingly long games, getting more and more powerful, more rewarding for passive players in HotS, in large part because of the economy (Mules for Terran with old Minerals) and map design of the time. Those strategies are definitely not seen anymore on the Zerg end, at least I haven't seen them, and no Zerg or Protoss wants anything to do with that, but a big piece of the (vocal) Terran audience advocates for it despite already having options for both Bio and Mech. They don't ask for diversity, they demand to be all-powerful above and beyond everyone else and cite their shortcomings as individuals or refer to gameplay environments from a generation ago when talking about balance as if that's what dictates game design. On May 09 2017 08:24 JackONeill wrote:
i've never seen anyone not be excited seing innovation or gumiho play mech in LOTV. It's because they don't force themselves to play defensively and will use Mech units in an active way that is fun to watch and they play intelligently, the former facets made possible because of better economic design and better overall unit design and balance in LotV, the latter because they're skilled players and smart individuals, of course. --- That's how I see things, at least. If I contradicted myself or made a bad typo somewhere feel free to let me know, I did a good heap of condensing my writing into something... less convoluted, let's say.
be completely honest do you play this videogame on a daily basis? or even lets say 2 days a week
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On May 09 2017 09:45 c0sm0naut wrote:
i hate knowing that i have 20+ supply totally wasted in these units late game
Have you heard of this cool new Zerg unit that literally cannot attack nor gather minerals for a period of time? It's called the Swarm Host and, get this, people actually have to make them to force the game to progress. 
The rest of your post is citing specific situations in which you fail to use a unit without taking a look at the bigger picture which shows all of them being used extremely effectively and trying to victimize yourself with hyperbole. So, yeah, no.
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On May 09 2017 09:59 blunderfulguy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2017 09:45 c0sm0naut wrote:
i hate knowing that i have 20+ supply totally wasted in these units late game Have you heard of this cool new Zerg unit that literally cannot attack nor gather minerals for a period of time? It's called the Swarm Host and, get this, people actually have to make them to force the game to progress. The rest of your post is citing specific situations in which you fail to use a unit without taking a look at the bigger picture which shows all of them being used extremely effectively and trying to victimize yourself with hyperbole. So, yeah, no.
you dont play this game
its very apparent to me
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On May 09 2017 09:56 c0sm0naut wrote:
be completely honest do you play this videogame on a daily basis? or even lets say 2 days a week
Lemme guess, next you'e going to ask: "are you even grandmaster bro?"
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[B]On May 09 2017 09:54 blunderfulguy wrote:
That's how I see things, at least. If I contradicted myself or made a bad typo somewhere feel free to let me know, I did a good heap of condensing my writing into something... less convoluted, let's say.
no
you wrote a bunch of noob garbage, and the way you phrased it or made it more succinct ultimately did nothing to distract from your uninformed arm-chair-perspective
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On May 09 2017 10:03 blunderfulguy wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2017 09:56 c0sm0naut wrote:
be completely honest do you play this videogame on a daily basis? or even lets say 2 days a week Lemme guess, next you'e going to ask: "are you even grandmaster bro?"
no its just real apparent to me that u reached a league you felt was meaningful, moved onto a different game and now write paragraphs on TL for some reason
if you still play this game, my bad! i couldnt tell
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@blunderfulguy
Not buying it. If you think mech is viable right now, when there's exactly one player playing it, and on pretty much one map (Innovation doesn't play mech in tournament games, and almost never on ladder), then we have a fundamental disagreement on what constitutes "viable" and no amount of discussion is going to change anything.
Finally, this attempt to rewrite history is really quite ridiculous.
Zerg was always focused on aggression and all-ins (who knows how many early Pool Ling or Spine rushes and 3-11 Roach timings) to force the game to end early on or Brood Lord Infestor (the build made to be used against Mech)
What? Broodlord-infestor as a response to mech? Terran played bio-tank for almost all of WoL, including the broodfestor era. It was only when MvP started experimenting with mech (and late-air transitions) as a response to broodlord-infestor that mech became somewhat common in the match-up, and by then WoL was almost over anyway.
Zerg players played broodfester in WoL, swarmhost turtle in HoTS, and hive-rush in LotV. The last is so common that it might as well be standard play outside of Korea (and Dark and Solar do it a fair amount in Korea as well). Pretending that zerg pros play turtle styles out of necessity is just nonsense--after six years and three expansions it's clear that those players are playing the way they want to, and not because they have to. And you know what? That's fine. But don't pretend that zerg turtling isn't a thing, or hasn't been one for ages.
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On May 09 2017 10:11 Athenau wrote:
@blunderfulguy
Not buying it.
Not buying what has been discussed in this thread and several other threads in this forum for the past year by amateurs and professionals alike? Sure, go ahead and ignore it all, that's a choice you can make, no worries.
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On May 09 2017 10:16 blunderfulguy wrote:Not buying what has been discussed in this thread and several other threads in this forum for the past year by amateurs and professionals alike? Sure, go ahead and ignore it all, that's a choice you can make, no worries.
yeah because its been discussed for 7 years and played for 0
blunder here are your options, choose wisely:
Mech is not played because:
a. terrans are simply not creative enough, and after 7 years of trying to figure it out and developers actively trying to make mech work, the only people terrans can blame are themselves. this is especially true at the highest echelons of play, where the least creative players of any sport or videogame are typically found, where mech play is not seen at all
b. maybe, just fucking maybe, mech is a suboptimal strategy
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On May 09 2017 10:16 blunderfulguy wrote:Not buying what has been discussed in this thread and several other threads in this forum for the past year by amateurs and professionals alike? Sure, go ahead and ignore it all, that's a choice you can make, no worries.
You are right, it has been discussed and dissected a lot and confirmed by pros and amateur in this thread and others.
Mech is not viable right now.
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Isn't it impossible on the onset for traditional mech to be viable at the highest lvl of play in LOTV? The general idea of mech is to survive and get to a critical cost-efficient mass that can't be beat or that atleast trades very efficiently (you know like in TvP broodwar). A largely tank based army (tanks are the most cost-efficient factory unit ofc) doesn't even trade that well vs the armies the other races can put on the table in the same time. Or I'm mistaken and it does, but it doesn't matter because the other races have enough disposable income cause they got a lot of bases very quickly. it's also quite painful that it's still every bit as hard as it was in earlier iterations to remake tanks quickly enough.
Like TLO said (I am paraphrasing) it's all about your early game harass actually causing a setback to the opponent to even stand a chance whilst playing mech. This fact means that LOTV is all about killing workers and that trading cost efficiently with army isn't all that important anymore (Mech's strong point).That's why the current mech we see is mostly a rush to 200/200 with hellbat thor and some tanks, and not a mech that predominately uses tanks. Instead of tanks people realize they need air units and mass air to beat air, if they want to play the long game.
Literally everything would need a nerf to make traditional mech viable at the highest lvl of play. Like people have said it's not even swarmhosts that are nescessarily the bane of mech. Zerg can beat mech with whatever (Hydra/viper/brood/ultra/banes/corruptor basically a mix of everything). Protoss can beat it with blink timings, warp prism play, chargelot immortal archon and ofcourse carrier tempest (though mech'ers can transition to BC widow mines to deal with the protoss air switch).
The only ways I see traditional mech being closer to viable is if the max army supply gets raised, if tanks get produced quicker or if mech actually gets a decent anti air ground unit. But I digress, I am of the opinion that mech will simply never work as well in LOTV as it did in slower iterations of Starcraft.
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EPT
