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On November 19 2016 14:25 Sheik_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2016 14:08 ninazerg wrote:On November 19 2016 12:32 Sheik_ wrote:On November 19 2016 06:03 ortseam wrote:On November 19 2016 01:16 Sheik_ wrote:I got a question about the Neo Bisu Build from the TL Wiki: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/+1_Sair/Speedlot_(vs._Zerg)In this build, the nex is very delayed as well as the cyber. why? the builds I have been told to do by others get the forge like normal but the nexus and gate much earlier (like Forge, cannon, and nex at 14). But on the wiki it says to get pylon at 15 instead! which is better? I really like the Neo bisu build on this site and it's been really solid but i am willing to change it up for something better. lastly, with the first sair, I dont even kill the first ovie, i go straight for the enemy base to see what they got. this is while I am going citadel into archives for fast storm. A. If i scout spire only and no den yet, I make cannons in each mineral line to counter mutas. B. but what if I scout den and a spire? do I still go immediately for robo into obs? I ask because I am unsure when it is a good time to get observers. if I see a ton of hydras, do I go for robo right away or can I delay it? many of my games end up with me getting obs late...which means that I waste precious seconds stuck in my base and unable to move out. I want to work on my obs timing and would like some general tips regarding this. Thank you! You are right, 18 Nexus is really weird, usually it is on 14 or 13. If you need 2 cannons you can make Nexus on 15, any later than that is just weird (assuming you didn't pylon block/cannon zerg nat). After that, gas is usually 16/17 and core when gas finishes (if 2 cannons, there is a decision to be made here between 1st zealot/core). I also think that most players start +1 weapons before starting citadel, so that speed and +1 finish at about the same time (if the order is citadel->+1 then speed will come faster but you won't have +1 for a while, meaning 20 speedlings can kill your zealots) You should also start a 2nd gate after you start speed too (although this can be skipped if you made extra cannons for some reason) Other than that I think the article gets vey specific. The basic opening ends at the 2 gate speedlot +one star sair pump, with usually archives and 2 more gates added but there are lot of variations after that (when to expand, robo timing, more sairs/archons against muta etc) Now about the sair, there are too many things zerg could be going for. Spire alone is not an indication for mutas, if zerg doesn't have 2nd gas yet, it will probably be scourge with fast 4th base, especially if his 3rd is at another natural If you scout spire and den though, you simply have to scout more. This is achieved with zealots poking in the zergs natural/3rd with this build, until you have 5/6 sairs to move out again with them -If you see hydras constantly being made, then get storm asap (if not started yet), Zerg can still follow up with lurkers, so robo after 4 gates is fine (not always necessary though) - If you see small amount of hydras without speed it's probably lurker first, get robo asap Of course there are weird builds that don't follow this rules, but the basic scouting in the early/mid game is done with: 1st sair, then sair retreats if there's a spire up, then speedlots, then +1 sairs(once you have enough)/speedlots/dts Fixed the BO according to what you said. Any tweaks you could suggest? the air weapons, when should i start them so that the timing is best used? + Show Spoiler +8 - Pylon
11 - Forge
13 - Nex
14 - Nex
13 - Cannon
14 - Gate
14 - Gas
15 - Pylon
100% Cyber - Star+2nd Gas
100 Gas - +1 Melee
100 Gas - +1 Air Weap.
100 Gas - Citadel
100% Star - Sair 6x
100% Citadel - Speed
200 Gas - Arch
100% Arch - Storm+HT+DT
Gate 4x
Robo
100% Robo - Obs
Gate 2x = 6 Gates
Nex 2. Ah. The gas. Thanks for pointing that out. In one of my games, the enemy did a muta attack and in the replay I saw that he had 2 gas mining. That should have told me mutas were inc. OK, I will look at the gas now. So if there is only 1 gas, he is either expanding like mad or doing a hydra bust? 2 gas=watch out for mutas and lurkers? 3 gas=watch out for everything. If i scout 3 gas early on, what does that tell me though? Does it tell me that the enemy is stretched thin and I can punish him (scouting with the 1st sair). How early is an 'early 3 gas'? Before their 4th and 5th hatcheries? After? Sometimes Zerg will double expand to make you think they're playing a standard game, but then get their second and third gas quickly so they can do a muta/ling bust at your front. It's sort of a weird play that I don't see very often anymore, but it's out there. scouting 3 gas when the first sair is out. also, scouting 2 gas when the first sair is out. I want to know what I should expect based on the first sair scout. But I think the question is too broad and I should be more specific: Based on the first sair scout, how can I use that information to correctly guess what the Zerg will do so that I can time my robo better.
Do you have any replays of this happening? Post a few please.
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On November 19 2016 16:59 ninazerg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2016 14:25 Sheik_ wrote:On November 19 2016 14:08 ninazerg wrote:On November 19 2016 12:32 Sheik_ wrote:On November 19 2016 06:03 ortseam wrote:On November 19 2016 01:16 Sheik_ wrote:I got a question about the Neo Bisu Build from the TL Wiki: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/+1_Sair/Speedlot_(vs._Zerg)In this build, the nex is very delayed as well as the cyber. why? the builds I have been told to do by others get the forge like normal but the nexus and gate much earlier (like Forge, cannon, and nex at 14). But on the wiki it says to get pylon at 15 instead! which is better? I really like the Neo bisu build on this site and it's been really solid but i am willing to change it up for something better. lastly, with the first sair, I dont even kill the first ovie, i go straight for the enemy base to see what they got. this is while I am going citadel into archives for fast storm. A. If i scout spire only and no den yet, I make cannons in each mineral line to counter mutas. B. but what if I scout den and a spire? do I still go immediately for robo into obs? I ask because I am unsure when it is a good time to get observers. if I see a ton of hydras, do I go for robo right away or can I delay it? many of my games end up with me getting obs late...which means that I waste precious seconds stuck in my base and unable to move out. I want to work on my obs timing and would like some general tips regarding this. Thank you! You are right, 18 Nexus is really weird, usually it is on 14 or 13. If you need 2 cannons you can make Nexus on 15, any later than that is just weird (assuming you didn't pylon block/cannon zerg nat). After that, gas is usually 16/17 and core when gas finishes (if 2 cannons, there is a decision to be made here between 1st zealot/core). I also think that most players start +1 weapons before starting citadel, so that speed and +1 finish at about the same time (if the order is citadel->+1 then speed will come faster but you won't have +1 for a while, meaning 20 speedlings can kill your zealots) You should also start a 2nd gate after you start speed too (although this can be skipped if you made extra cannons for some reason) Other than that I think the article gets vey specific. The basic opening ends at the 2 gate speedlot +one star sair pump, with usually archives and 2 more gates added but there are lot of variations after that (when to expand, robo timing, more sairs/archons against muta etc) Now about the sair, there are too many things zerg could be going for. Spire alone is not an indication for mutas, if zerg doesn't have 2nd gas yet, it will probably be scourge with fast 4th base, especially if his 3rd is at another natural If you scout spire and den though, you simply have to scout more. This is achieved with zealots poking in the zergs natural/3rd with this build, until you have 5/6 sairs to move out again with them -If you see hydras constantly being made, then get storm asap (if not started yet), Zerg can still follow up with lurkers, so robo after 4 gates is fine (not always necessary though) - If you see small amount of hydras without speed it's probably lurker first, get robo asap Of course there are weird builds that don't follow this rules, but the basic scouting in the early/mid game is done with: 1st sair, then sair retreats if there's a spire up, then speedlots, then +1 sairs(once you have enough)/speedlots/dts Fixed the BO according to what you said. Any tweaks you could suggest? the air weapons, when should i start them so that the timing is best used? + Show Spoiler +8 - Pylon
11 - Forge
13 - Nex
14 - Nex
13 - Cannon
14 - Gate
14 - Gas
15 - Pylon
100% Cyber - Star+2nd Gas
100 Gas - +1 Melee
100 Gas - +1 Air Weap.
100 Gas - Citadel
100% Star - Sair 6x
100% Citadel - Speed
200 Gas - Arch
100% Arch - Storm+HT+DT
Gate 4x
Robo
100% Robo - Obs
Gate 2x = 6 Gates
Nex 2. Ah. The gas. Thanks for pointing that out. In one of my games, the enemy did a muta attack and in the replay I saw that he had 2 gas mining. That should have told me mutas were inc. OK, I will look at the gas now. So if there is only 1 gas, he is either expanding like mad or doing a hydra bust? 2 gas=watch out for mutas and lurkers? 3 gas=watch out for everything. If i scout 3 gas early on, what does that tell me though? Does it tell me that the enemy is stretched thin and I can punish him (scouting with the 1st sair). How early is an 'early 3 gas'? Before their 4th and 5th hatcheries? After? Sometimes Zerg will double expand to make you think they're playing a standard game, but then get their second and third gas quickly so they can do a muta/ling bust at your front. It's sort of a weird play that I don't see very often anymore, but it's out there. scouting 3 gas when the first sair is out. also, scouting 2 gas when the first sair is out. I want to know what I should expect based on the first sair scout. But I think the question is too broad and I should be more specific: Based on the first sair scout, how can I use that information to correctly guess what the Zerg will do so that I can time my robo better. Do you have any replays of this happening? Post a few please.
no replays that i can think of where i scouted 3 gas but i've seen zergs have 1 gas or 2 gas when i first scouted with my sair.
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It depends on how early your corsair scouts.
More often, you will be able to tell what the zerg is going for by how many hatcheries he builds, how many drones he has and how many larva he has idling. If they're really planning on a mutalisk attack with 2 gasses as soon as spire finishes (it's too early for a 3rd gas, at the time of your 1st corsair), he will at most have his 4th hatchery building (Mutas are mineral intensive as well after all), can have a decent drone count but he will also be saving larva at 3 hatcheries.
If he has 5 hatcheries coming up with hydralisk den, evolution chamber and 2 gasses (maybe even with the 2nd extractor still only morphing), he's playing very standard. The 2 gas in this case will most likely be spent on scourge, hydralisk upgrades (den + evo), overlord speed, and possibly flyer carapace +1.
Of course, it is still possible for him to do a much weaker mutalisk attack in this situation, most often with the intent of killing probes at your natural instead of outright killing you. Again, this is more of a mindgame situation and it will not happen often at lower levels I suspect.
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On November 19 2016 17:44 Sheik_ wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2016 16:59 ninazerg wrote:On November 19 2016 14:25 Sheik_ wrote:On November 19 2016 14:08 ninazerg wrote:On November 19 2016 12:32 Sheik_ wrote:On November 19 2016 06:03 ortseam wrote:On November 19 2016 01:16 Sheik_ wrote:I got a question about the Neo Bisu Build from the TL Wiki: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/+1_Sair/Speedlot_(vs._Zerg)In this build, the nex is very delayed as well as the cyber. why? the builds I have been told to do by others get the forge like normal but the nexus and gate much earlier (like Forge, cannon, and nex at 14). But on the wiki it says to get pylon at 15 instead! which is better? I really like the Neo bisu build on this site and it's been really solid but i am willing to change it up for something better. lastly, with the first sair, I dont even kill the first ovie, i go straight for the enemy base to see what they got. this is while I am going citadel into archives for fast storm. A. If i scout spire only and no den yet, I make cannons in each mineral line to counter mutas. B. but what if I scout den and a spire? do I still go immediately for robo into obs? I ask because I am unsure when it is a good time to get observers. if I see a ton of hydras, do I go for robo right away or can I delay it? many of my games end up with me getting obs late...which means that I waste precious seconds stuck in my base and unable to move out. I want to work on my obs timing and would like some general tips regarding this. Thank you! You are right, 18 Nexus is really weird, usually it is on 14 or 13. If you need 2 cannons you can make Nexus on 15, any later than that is just weird (assuming you didn't pylon block/cannon zerg nat). After that, gas is usually 16/17 and core when gas finishes (if 2 cannons, there is a decision to be made here between 1st zealot/core). I also think that most players start +1 weapons before starting citadel, so that speed and +1 finish at about the same time (if the order is citadel->+1 then speed will come faster but you won't have +1 for a while, meaning 20 speedlings can kill your zealots) You should also start a 2nd gate after you start speed too (although this can be skipped if you made extra cannons for some reason) Other than that I think the article gets vey specific. The basic opening ends at the 2 gate speedlot +one star sair pump, with usually archives and 2 more gates added but there are lot of variations after that (when to expand, robo timing, more sairs/archons against muta etc) Now about the sair, there are too many things zerg could be going for. Spire alone is not an indication for mutas, if zerg doesn't have 2nd gas yet, it will probably be scourge with fast 4th base, especially if his 3rd is at another natural If you scout spire and den though, you simply have to scout more. This is achieved with zealots poking in the zergs natural/3rd with this build, until you have 5/6 sairs to move out again with them -If you see hydras constantly being made, then get storm asap (if not started yet), Zerg can still follow up with lurkers, so robo after 4 gates is fine (not always necessary though) - If you see small amount of hydras without speed it's probably lurker first, get robo asap Of course there are weird builds that don't follow this rules, but the basic scouting in the early/mid game is done with: 1st sair, then sair retreats if there's a spire up, then speedlots, then +1 sairs(once you have enough)/speedlots/dts Fixed the BO according to what you said. Any tweaks you could suggest? the air weapons, when should i start them so that the timing is best used? + Show Spoiler +8 - Pylon
11 - Forge
13 - Nex
14 - Nex
13 - Cannon
14 - Gate
14 - Gas
15 - Pylon
100% Cyber - Star+2nd Gas
100 Gas - +1 Melee
100 Gas - +1 Air Weap.
100 Gas - Citadel
100% Star - Sair 6x
100% Citadel - Speed
200 Gas - Arch
100% Arch - Storm+HT+DT
Gate 4x
Robo
100% Robo - Obs
Gate 2x = 6 Gates
Nex 2. Ah. The gas. Thanks for pointing that out. In one of my games, the enemy did a muta attack and in the replay I saw that he had 2 gas mining. That should have told me mutas were inc. OK, I will look at the gas now. So if there is only 1 gas, he is either expanding like mad or doing a hydra bust? 2 gas=watch out for mutas and lurkers? 3 gas=watch out for everything. If i scout 3 gas early on, what does that tell me though? Does it tell me that the enemy is stretched thin and I can punish him (scouting with the 1st sair). How early is an 'early 3 gas'? Before their 4th and 5th hatcheries? After? Sometimes Zerg will double expand to make you think they're playing a standard game, but then get their second and third gas quickly so they can do a muta/ling bust at your front. It's sort of a weird play that I don't see very often anymore, but it's out there. scouting 3 gas when the first sair is out. also, scouting 2 gas when the first sair is out. I want to know what I should expect based on the first sair scout. But I think the question is too broad and I should be more specific: Based on the first sair scout, how can I use that information to correctly guess what the Zerg will do so that I can time my robo better. Do you have any replays of this happening? Post a few please. no replays that i can think of where i scouted 3 gas but i've seen zergs have 1 gas or 2 gas when i first scouted with my sair.
Well, if you see it, it means he's going to do a mass Queen/Mutalisk rush. The queens will be used to ensnare your corsairs and broodling on your HT. This strat is easily counter by getting 5-6 dark archons, and using maelstrom to freeze their queen ball in place. Mind control is also helpful, since the mobility of the Zerg's sky force can make it difficult to track, but if you have one of their queens, you can parasite them and see where they are.
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I dont recommend what ninazerg is suggesting, because if I see protoss is using dark archons then I immediately know that he has atleast some ground units, which triggers me to start mixing in infested terrans in a support role. Its really effective, especially when you use lots of overlords to tank damage, so when I do this, my main army normally has an overlord based backbone. The beauty is that after a big engagement where you lose your army, you can transition straight away into 'mass anything' because you have so many spare overlords (well, as long as corsairs dont snipe the ones in your base! I advise using anti air to protect them). Mass anything is such a good strategy if the opponent lets you get to that stage because it is so unpredictable.
btw ninazerg, if you parasite an enemy zerg unit with his own queen youre basically just giving the unit a free set of extra eyes so do take that into consideration. I dont know, you may still think the benefit is worth it.
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On November 21 2016 06:12 CardinalAllin wrote:
I dont recommend what ninazerg is suggesting, because if I see protoss is using dark archons then I immediately know that he has atleast some ground units, which triggers me to start mixing in infested terrans in a support role. Its really effective, especially when you use lots of overlords to tank damage, so when I do this, my main army normally has an overlord based backbone. The beauty is that after a big engagement where you lose your army, you can transition straight away into 'mass anything' because you have so many spare overlords (well, as long as corsairs dont snipe the ones in your base! I advise using anti air to protect them). Mass anything is such a good strategy if the opponent lets you get to that stage because it is so unpredictable.
btw ninazerg, if you parasite an enemy zerg unit with his own queen youre basically just giving the unit a free set of extra eyes so do take that into consideration. I dont know, you may still think the benefit is worth it.
I always cover my army with enough overlords so they can't mind control, but it doesn't really prevent maelstrom. Also, if I mind control a parasited queen, does it stay parasited?
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On November 20 2016 00:28 B-royal wrote:
It depends on how early your corsair scouts.
More often, you will be able to tell what the zerg is going for by how many hatcheries he builds, how many drones he has and how many larva he has idling. If they're really planning on a mutalisk attack with 2 gasses as soon as spire finishes (it's too early for a 3rd gas, at the time of your 1st corsair), he will at most have his 4th hatchery building (Mutas are mineral intensive as well after all), can have a decent drone count but he will also be saving larva at 3 hatcheries.
If he has 5 hatcheries coming up with hydralisk den, evolution chamber and 2 gasses (maybe even with the 2nd extractor still only morphing), he's playing very standard. The 2 gas in this case will most likely be spent on scourge, hydralisk upgrades (den + evo), overlord speed, and possibly flyer carapace +1.
Of course, it is still possible for him to do a much weaker mutalisk attack in this situation, most often with the intent of killing probes at your natural instead of outright killing you. Again, this is more of a mindgame situation and it will not happen often at lower levels I suspect.
Thanks B-Royal!
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You would need to consult the official Prima game guide for advanced tactics like that. Im still saving up to buy mine so I cant help you.
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On November 21 2016 08:39 ninazerg wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2016 06:12 CardinalAllin wrote:
I dont recommend what ninazerg is suggesting, because if I see protoss is using dark archons then I immediately know that he has atleast some ground units, which triggers me to start mixing in infested terrans in a support role. Its really effective, especially when you use lots of overlords to tank damage, so when I do this, my main army normally has an overlord based backbone. The beauty is that after a big engagement where you lose your army, you can transition straight away into 'mass anything' because you have so many spare overlords (well, as long as corsairs dont snipe the ones in your base! I advise using anti air to protect them). Mass anything is such a good strategy if the opponent lets you get to that stage because it is so unpredictable.
btw ninazerg, if you parasite an enemy zerg unit with his own queen youre basically just giving the unit a free set of extra eyes so do take that into consideration. I dont know, you may still think the benefit is worth it. I always cover my army with enough overlords so they can't mind control, but it doesn't really prevent maelstrom. Also, if I mind control a parasited queen, does it stay parasited?
It stays parasited.
Reminds me of a 1v1 ZvP game on bloodbath a couple of years ago which went to turtle stage with dark archons and storms. I would try to get vision of his high templars with overlords to broodling them but he would always mind control the overlords, so I parasited my own overlords to still have vision after he mind controlled it. Unfortunately he noticed it fast
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On November 21 2016 21:08 Cryoc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2016 08:39 ninazerg wrote:On November 21 2016 06:12 CardinalAllin wrote:
I dont recommend what ninazerg is suggesting, because if I see protoss is using dark archons then I immediately know that he has atleast some ground units, which triggers me to start mixing in infested terrans in a support role. Its really effective, especially when you use lots of overlords to tank damage, so when I do this, my main army normally has an overlord based backbone. The beauty is that after a big engagement where you lose your army, you can transition straight away into 'mass anything' because you have so many spare overlords (well, as long as corsairs dont snipe the ones in your base! I advise using anti air to protect them). Mass anything is such a good strategy if the opponent lets you get to that stage because it is so unpredictable.
btw ninazerg, if you parasite an enemy zerg unit with his own queen youre basically just giving the unit a free set of extra eyes so do take that into consideration. I dont know, you may still think the benefit is worth it. I always cover my army with enough overlords so they can't mind control, but it doesn't really prevent maelstrom. Also, if I mind control a parasited queen, does it stay parasited? It stays parasited. Reminds me of a 1v1 ZvP game on bloodbath a couple of years ago which went to turtle stage with dark archons and storms. I would try to get vision of his high templars with overlords to broodling them but he would always mind control the overlords, so I parasited my own overlords to still have vision after he mind controlled it. Unfortunately he noticed it fast
:D
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Norway28525 Posts
I once played a zvz on temple where I was going queen hydra and he was trying to do some fast-ish guardian. when guardians started hitting my drones I was like ohshit gotta attack, then I got to his natural and saw lurker spines and was like daaaamn.
But then I parasited one of his overlords and then I saw his two lurkers and killed them and he had nothing else. was pretty awesome.
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On November 21 2016 21:50 Liquid`Drone wrote:
I once played a zvz on temple where I was going queen hydra and he was trying to do some fast-ish guardian. when guardians started hitting my drones I was like ohshit gotta attack, then I got to his natural and saw lurker spines and was like daaaamn.
But then I parasited one of his overlords and then I saw his two lurkers and killed them and he had nothing else. was pretty awesome.
Wait... if you parasite an enemy detector you get detection from it? I never knew that. Seems like he should've moved his overlords away, though by then the lurkers would likely be dead already.
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On November 21 2016 21:08 Cryoc wrote:Show nested quote +On November 21 2016 08:39 ninazerg wrote:On November 21 2016 06:12 CardinalAllin wrote:
I dont recommend what ninazerg is suggesting, because if I see protoss is using dark archons then I immediately know that he has atleast some ground units, which triggers me to start mixing in infested terrans in a support role. Its really effective, especially when you use lots of overlords to tank damage, so when I do this, my main army normally has an overlord based backbone. The beauty is that after a big engagement where you lose your army, you can transition straight away into 'mass anything' because you have so many spare overlords (well, as long as corsairs dont snipe the ones in your base! I advise using anti air to protect them). Mass anything is such a good strategy if the opponent lets you get to that stage because it is so unpredictable.
btw ninazerg, if you parasite an enemy zerg unit with his own queen youre basically just giving the unit a free set of extra eyes so do take that into consideration. I dont know, you may still think the benefit is worth it. I always cover my army with enough overlords so they can't mind control, but it doesn't really prevent maelstrom. Also, if I mind control a parasited queen, does it stay parasited? It stays parasited. Reminds me of a 1v1 ZvP game on bloodbath a couple of years ago which went to turtle stage with dark archons and storms. I would try to get vision of his high templars with overlords to broodling them but he would always mind control the overlords, so I parasited my own overlords to still have vision after he mind controlled it. Unfortunately he noticed it fast
Wow.
You can learn a lot from Bloodbath games...
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i've seen some fpvods on youtube and sometimes bisu takes 1 of his 4 probes off of minerals at the start. is this for handicapping??
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yeah, i think I've seen this on some recent island map games too
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On November 23 2016 14:29 Alejandrisha wrote:
i've seen some fpvods on youtube and sometimes bisu takes 1 of his 4 probes off of minerals at the start. is this for handicapping??
Yes
Sometimes pros (Bisu/Flash) takes one or even two starting workers for handicap.
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I have seen this happen mostly when Flash plays vs Britney or Terror. Sometimes it is quite hilarious how Terror just cannot win even with the starting SCV handicap plus he also gets map vision from Flash in some games.
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Yeah I remember it was a game against Terror where I last saw it. That is cute 
edit: and bisu still curshed him!! hahahaha
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q: been watching a lot of shuttle and bisu vods. why in pvp does 1 go gate - robo - expand or gate - expand - robo ??
what is this good against? Seems like a losing build. Gets hurt by any strong 2 gate opener which transitions into an expand build. Am I missing something??
edit: seems like it would punish an even GREEDIER build?? but have yet to see it. seems like these builds lose every time
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what do you mean 'strong' 2 gate opener?
a dt opening with 2 gate would lose to 1 gate robo and 2 gate reaver isnt an auto win because of travel time and high ground advantage for the defending side.
1 gate robo basically just has to turtle with a slightly earlier expansion, pylon at front with good concave + reaver and its hard to get fully run over (2 gate player still needs to wait for shuttle + reaver before moving out, and by the time he arrives and starts fighting 1 gate player will have shuttle reaver + 2nd reaver building in robos that can crawl its way to the battlefield quite easily). after your expansion is up you get 4-6 gates quicker as well so theres really only a small timing which 2 gate can abuse
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EPT
