Simple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 283

Sheridan

60 Posts

November 07 2016 14:47 GMT

#5641

On November 07 2016 21:57 Cryoc wrote:
I don't know, if it is different in SC2, but in BW morphing an Archon doesn't cost anything, so even it will surely die, it will take longer to kill than 2 High Templars.

Thank you! oh man i got a lot to learn

Sheik_

27 Posts

November 07 2016 15:30 GMT

#5642

http://bwreplays.com/z3veh

http://bwreplays.com/7abu8

I know this is asking a lot but could I get some eyes on two of my games? I want to get ready for the CPL and I am a former sc2 player who wants to play BW random. it has been brutal and all my wins are really ugly but i wanted to win in at least one pvz, pvt, tvp, zvt, tvz, and zvp. I don't have a win in ZvP yet but I think zerg is my strongest so I've been focusing on Terran and toss. I think Protoss is my weakest and I just finally won my first PvZ. I didn't really get the matchup until I watched eonzerg vs lancerx. eonzerg would constantly hydra contain lancerx, which is like most of my pvzs. but I saw lancerx breaking out and playing far better when he went for a quick storm instead of delaying it. Oh my goodness storms are crazy good. they are a bit weak in sc2 but I melted the zerg.

The TvP game was the most exhausting game. playing sc2, I can mass games pretty easily but after this one game in bw I was pretty tired and asking myself "when will this end.." But that one win meant a lot more than any I got in sc2. hot damn it felt good and i yelled

A. BW seems to be a very big time sink. SC2 i can just jump in and play but as a newcomer to BW I feel like it's gonna take a lot to beat even chobos on the korean server. How much time do you folks play to keep the rust off? I want to learn it casually and for fun but I've already watched so many streams just so that I do not die in 6 minutes.

Thank you!

PvZ was a blast. smashing into zerg defenses with super zealots

Vuk_91

Serbia1690 Posts

November 07 2016 19:26 GMT

#5643

On November 08 2016 00:30 Sheik_ wrote:
http://bwreplays.com/z3veh

http://bwreplays.com/7abu8

I know this is asking a lot but could I get some eyes on two of my games? I want to get ready for the CPL and I am a former sc2 player who wants to play BW random. it has been brutal and all my wins are really ugly but i wanted to win in at least one pvz, pvt, tvp, zvt, tvz, and zvp. I don't have a win in ZvP yet but I think zerg is my strongest so I've been focusing on Terran and toss. I think Protoss is my weakest and I just finally won my first PvZ. I didn't really get the matchup until I watched eonzerg vs lancerx. eonzerg would constantly hydra contain lancerx, which is like most of my pvzs. but I saw lancerx breaking out and playing far better when he went for a quick storm instead of delaying it. Oh my goodness storms are crazy good. they are a bit weak in sc2 but I melted the zerg.

The TvP game was the most exhausting game. playing sc2, I can mass games pretty easily but after this one game in bw I was pretty tired and asking myself "when will this end.." But that one win meant a lot more than any I got in sc2. hot damn it felt good and i yelled

Which race are you in the first, and which one are you in the second game?

Cryoc

Germany912 Posts

November 07 2016 19:48 GMT

#5644

I can only comment on the game where you played TvP, but from the looks of it you seem to have "decent" macro for someone without having a clue in the build order/strategy or tactical department. It is also much more helpful, if you post a losing replay, because your mistakes are getting exploited in this case. So I will only comment on your opening.

My best guess is, you may have wanted to open up with an FD build but you build your gas at 12 and also delayed your factory by not canceling the marine or scv when you had 100 gas. You ugrade mines first but build like 4 tanks before your first vulture, so that was just wasted. When you move out, always lead with the marines not the tank, the Protoss could have easily sniped it, if he wouldn't have run away initially.

Your response to the 12 Nexus by building a 2nd factory was also incorrect. Usually that should get denied easily. You then get up to 4 facs on 1 base instead of expanding even though you cannot even support that much on 1 base.

Building marines after the initial push is a waste of money, you shouldn't get them at later stages of the game.

Also upgrades are good, you should get them after you took your natural, 30min no upgrades is not the way to go.

Highgamer

1448 Posts

November 07 2016 21:37 GMT

#5645

On November 08 2016 00:30 Sheik_ wrote:

A. BW seems to be a very big time sink. SC2 i can just jump in and play but as a newcomer to BW I feel like it's gonna take a lot to beat even chobos on the korean server. How much time do you folks play to keep the rust off? I want to learn it casually and for fun but I've already watched so many streams just so that I do not die in 6 minutes.

Thank you!

BW is a very big time sink - if you're eager to improve quickly and become good overall. The competition is pretty rough once you've passed the lowest ranks. But that shouldn't stop you from playing it as much as you want casually.

How much you have to play to 'keep the rust off' depends on your talent for RTS/BW and on your current level. I would guess:
If you're an experienced C rank player or if you rank below that, then you can more or less keep your level with a few games a week or even months (but you will hardly improve then, of course).
If you're above that, depending on your play-style and experience, you might need much more than that to keep your skill-level - but you can beat a C rank player immediatelly after a long break, probably. At least as far as I know: all the good foreigners play/stream many hours per week (and they play for 10-15 years by now)... and the koreans play 24/7 as you know...

I think: The overall strategies, build-orders, tactical instinct you won't really unlearn, even after long breaks (or at least: you'll get back into them quickly). But the (not-core-)mechanics and (in connection to that) your 'explosiveness' or spontaneity as a player (something like the 'short-term-game-sense') suffer a lot, because you have to concentrate on stuff that you don't have to waste thoughts on if you play 1-2 hours a day or more.

Note that these amounts are only the case if you play one race...

Judging by what Cryoc wrote about your replay, here are some tips on your plans:

- You can play random if it's fun for you, but if you want to learn quickly, then you have to go race after race, matchup after matchup as BW is so much about detail. Even if you want to become a random player, pick one matchup first and practice the hell out of it for a while. You will improve much faster than if you're switching macro patterns/micro-tricks/building-placements/etc. all the time.

- Like Cryoc hinted - and as you should know, coming from SC2 - the precise execution of a build order is a conditio sine qua non in Starcraft, so pick one build order for your matchup of choice, practice it in games without an opponent until the replay looks good (meaning: you're doing all the things mentioned in the build order right on point while you're constantly building workers - note: Zerg works a little different in the latter regard).
You can play without an opponent by opening a multiplayer-game online, setting everything for a 1v1 against a computer, then you click "start", and as the countdown is ticking, you kick out the computer.

Sheik_

27 Posts

November 08 2016 03:55 GMT

#5646

On November 08 2016 04:48 Cryoc wrote:

Show nested quote +

really? i floated like 4k at one point. Any macro tips? it's completely different from my sc2 setup. I've been hotkeying some of the buildings but I can't hotkey them all. so I use camera location sometimes.

yes, my tactical decision does need some work. I'm going to keep playing and watching replays. I play random because I can watch the replay afterwards and copy what my opponent did in my next match

@Cryoc or any Protoss player

http://bwreplays.com/z3veh PvT I am Crac

I just lost this game pretty badly. I can't seem to stop that big push even with my big goon count. I felt like I had this game but I just don't know what to do. I had the terran contained on 2 base, and so I know the big push is coming. what should be my mentality? two goon groups is enough? I am not sure when to engage the enemy terran. I wanna catch him while he is moving out in the open but im not sure which location is best. could you please take a look?

Looking at it again, i really should of used the shuttles to drop zealots. i also should have got leg speed asap. i also engaged very poorly....damnit I seem to crack under pressure ;P

could you tell me what the gameplan should be in a PvT? like after goon range the enemy is going to siege up and just mass tanks. he might even take his third very easily. Do I just mass goons and zeals as fast as I can and hope to crush his push? Okay sure, let's say I did stop it. then what? How do I deny his third? keep arbiter dropping it?

Also, can I use 3 shuttles with zealot bombs when engaging the terran army? more the better right?

Hmm...I should have known I had enough goons, and so I should have teched to leg speed and storm asap. storm would have helped so much.

Also, did I have enough gates?

ortseam

996 Posts

November 08 2016 16:46 GMT

#5647

You actually posted a zvp. Other than the classic advice (practice the build against comp with cheats so that you have the first 10 minutes down without having lots of minerals) there are 3 things i would like to note:
1. For a ling-tight wall you want to have gateway on top of forge, not the other way around. With the wall you had, lings can run between forge-gate into your base.
2. Scout his pool timing and try to keep your probe in his base to see what he is doing and adjust accordingly (is he making hydras/lings/lair)
3. If he has sufficient anti-air defense (3 spores in his natural is more than enough), don't trade your sairs with overlords, you were replenishing sairs all game long due to losing them needlessly
4. In the end you were mined out, since you never tried to expand, send a probe with a couple of zealots(in case he has lings there) and make a nexus before this happens, next try not to get more than 10 gates on 2 base and use the extra minerals for a 3rd base (this is until you improve your macro of course)

ortseam

996 Posts

November 08 2016 16:52 GMT

#5648

Lol delete pls

ArmadA[NaS]

United States347 Posts

November 08 2016 18:22 GMT

#5649

You linked to the wrong game. A few things i noticed in your PvT game vs Tracer:
You should never lose your scouting probe before the barracks is even done- when you're trapped in their mineral line just f2 back to your base and click on your minerals and you will never die before the marines pop. This is important because you need to know how they will follow up from a gas steal. Your opponent decided to change his build to a fast expansion which is one of the most common reactions to a gas steal since you can get your gas at the natural. After scouting this you can decide how you want to punish their lack of early defense/tech- either push aggressively with proxy gates/robo, expand and then take a faster third to get an economic advantage, or tech up faster. Since you decided to go for a zealot first, I would push out with that and try to do some damage- there's no real point to block your ramp unless you were going for fast tech like dts or reavers.
Also you forgot goon range- this is extremely since you can do guaranteed damage to the economy by attacking the bunker before the tank is out since ranged goons outrange unupgraded marines in a bunker. You have map control at this point- there's no reason to not stay outside of the terran's base to pick off vultures or scvs. As you saw, he got to send out an scv for free which ended up building a ninja expo that won him the game - don't let him do that! When you went back with five goons and a zealot you could have easily picked off his single tank since his wall wasn't the best, but that's not a huge problem.
Your first observer should go immediately to his base. You need to know what his factory count is so you can match at least +2 gates (this a good rule-of-thumb not a hard and fast rule). About your observers- don't get obs sight until much later in the game- always get observer speed first. You don't need have 4 obs in a single group- spread them out so you can see drops, hidden expos, etc. At one point you had 8 observers but no idea he had a hidden third at the top right. If you keep two groups of goons each with an observer, 1 above his factories, you can use patrol on the other 5 to pretty much see the entire map.
Another good rule of thumb is to either be one base ahead of the terran or have a tech advantage. In this game you had neither. Your tech options are templars, carriers, or arbiters- without one of these it's next to impossible to beat a maxed terran army. Probably the most standard tech route is Arbiter into Templar so I would try that for a few games. When your opponent has a vessel before you even have a stargate or templar archives that's a very bad sign.
Lastly, with your engagements you want to fight in open areas with your zealots tanking the tankfire for your dragoons. After your zealots die, retreat your goon army and remax on zealots. Upgrades in PvT are not as important as teching, so I would prioritize teching to Arbiters first then upgrading ground weapons.

Sheik_

27 Posts

November 08 2016 18:54 GMT

#5650

On November 09 2016 03:22 f10eqq wrote:
You linked to the wrong game. A few things i noticed in your PvT game vs Tracer:
You should never lose your scouting probe before the barracks is even done- when you're trapped in their mineral line just f2 back to your base and click on your minerals and you will never die before the marines pop. This is important because you need to know how they will follow up from a gas steal. Your opponent decided to change his build to a fast expansion which is one of the most common reactions to a gas steal since you can get your gas at the natural. After scouting this you can decide how you want to punish their lack of early defense/tech- either push aggressively with proxy gates/robo, expand and then take a faster third to get an economic advantage, or tech up faster. Since you decided to go for a zealot first, I would push out with that and try to do some damage- there's no real point to block your ramp unless you were going for fast tech like dts or reavers.
Also you forgot goon range- this is extremely since you can do guaranteed damage to the economy by attacking the bunker before the tank is out since ranged goons outrange unupgraded marines in a bunker. You have map control at this point- there's no reason to not stay outside of the terran's base to pick off vultures or scvs. As you saw, he got to send out an scv for free which ended up building a ninja expo that won him the game - don't let him do that! When you went back with five goons and a zealot you could have easily picked off his single tank since his wall wasn't the best, but that's not a huge problem.
Your first observer should go immediately to his base. You need to know what his factory count is so you can match at least +2 gates (this a good rule-of-thumb not a hard and fast rule). About your observers- don't get obs sight until much later in the game- always get observer speed first. You don't need have 4 obs in a single group- spread them out so you can see drops, hidden expos, etc. At one point you had 8 observers but no idea he had a hidden third at the top right. If you keep two groups of goons each with an observer, 1 above his factories, you can use patrol on the other 5 to pretty much see the entire map.
Another good rule of thumb is to either be one base ahead of the terran or have a tech advantage. In this game you had neither. Your tech options are templars, carriers, or arbiters- without one of these it's next to impossible to beat a maxed terran army. Probably the most standard tech route is Arbiter into Templar so I would try that for a few games. When your opponent has a vessel before you even have a stargate or templar archives that's a very bad sign.
Lastly, with your engagements you want to fight in open areas with your zealots tanking the tankfire for your dragoons. After your zealots die, retreat your goon army and remax on zealots. Upgrades in PvT are not as important as teching, so I would prioritize teching to Arbiters first then upgrading ground weapons.

f10, I read what you wrote and went back to the gauntlet. I didn't win but I felt much better about the game as I did get a bit further. I've never used arbiters before...probably should try them out. I got to templar and i actually got a 4th base with macro gates! wooooooo. I really should not have tried my early attack right into the teeth of his defense...i thought I could break him....i had 3 shuttles with zealots but i think some of them didnt drop... sigh.

I also don't know the best way to control obs. Why not get sight for obs? I also group em separately and keep at least 2 in a group cuz i could possibly lose one and get screwed. Plus, if I keep them in my goon group, they move too far up ahead and die to turrets or goliaths (kinda why i dont get why i would get speed). but i am not sure what is a good way to control them that isn't too micro heavy in keeping them alive. mine clearing is serious business...

PvT in BW feels like whack a mole. and I am the mole...what I have to do is take expos all over the map while waiting for the terran to push and hope to god I have enough to stop him or trade well. then remax and hit him again while he is sieging one of my bases.

anyways, your advice has been so helpful and encouraging. I am going back at it again and hopefully i can show u a game where I do something that resembles what you wrote. I am really going to try out that thing about going in with zealots first and then when they die, retreating and delaying for the next round of zealots to do it again. that is very smart. very smart.

Thanks man. I play P and T and i think Z is my best so far but I find terran and toss a bit more fun. because they play really different in BW. P is just pure badass in BW. really beefy.

http://bwreplays.com/9abgi

@ortseam

mind blown about the gate on top of forge making it ling tight. ty

Sheik_

27 Posts

November 08 2016 18:55 GMT

#5651

double post

Cryoc

Germany912 Posts

November 08 2016 19:17 GMT

#5652

On November 08 2016 12:55 Sheik_ wrote:

Show nested quote +

On November 08 2016 04:48 Cryoc wrote:

Naturally I meant decent macro in relation to your game knowledge that's why I put it in quotation marks, you build more than 40 SCVs for your 2 bases so that is pretty good for a newcomer and you also had enough production facilities to keep your money relatively low. You only floated a lot of money after you lost your main, which is pretty natural if you cannot build anything and even better players wouldn't be able to handle such a situation so well macro wise.

From your description of the PvT, it is probably the game f10eqq already analyzed pretty well. The only thing I have to add is, if you face a timing push, you don't have to fully engage so early, just threaten it and then retreat until he is on your side of the map. That gives you time to increase your army size and get crucial tech (like leg speed or arbiter), while T's push will grow slower or not at all, if T doesn't reinforce properly.
For denying the third there are some timings where P can bulldog it and deny it. They cut some probes after taking they take their own third and build a couple of gateways, but Protoss players know more about that. Recalling the 3rd after T moves out is the more common response from my experience.
Regarding your 3 shuttle idea, if you don't have leg speed, it is better than walking the zealots, but it is more effective to have leg speed and just use one shuttle to draw initial friendly fire because by the time they die, the speedlots in your army should have already reached the siege tanks so the effect is the same. Using 3 shuttles really only uses up your apm without being particularly more useful.

Sheik_

27 Posts

November 09 2016 07:23 GMT

#5653

http://bwreplays.com/wd1lk

I was so ahead. I was so ahead and I blew it. I thought I would crush him by attacking from both sides. but i got massacred. I really should not have pushed. why do I always push when I dont have to? I have an urge to kill those tanks. he was on 2 base for a long time while I was on 3. I maxed out and got arbiters but holy hell they take forever for their energy to be high enough for recall. and they take forever to make.

F10, i did what you said and it helped a lot and helped me get much further into the game. I think what I have to do is after denying his third, take my 4th and start doing drops on his ass. something. I am at a loss for what I had to do after I denied his third. I mean i cant attack him so I gotta mass up and prepare for his big push. I should have denied his other 3rd. that should have been my plan. But I got cocky.

One thing that has helped me so much in PvT. Make a group of goons first but then make 2 groups of zealots right after. that has helped me so much. not sure if that is a good idea but for low levels it works. after the 2 groups of zealots and 1 goon group, what should I make? templars? I think so. I should have.

B-royal

Belgium1330 Posts

November 09 2016 14:03 GMT

#5654

Hey Sheik_. It is great you are eager to improve and I love seeing you post replays, but please do so in a separate, possibly even dedicated thread. This is after all the simple questions, simple answers thread

Sheik_

27 Posts

November 09 2016 15:25 GMT

#5655

Thanks royal I will do that. Not sure about the rules here and so I didn't want to make a thread just for myself. Is there a replay thread that I could post in? Somewhere people post replays and can get analysis

noobscrub

10 Posts

November 09 2016 17:05 GMT

#5656

any news about sc HD yet? :<

edit: nvm found a thread about it

B-royal

Belgium1330 Posts

November 10 2016 13:26 GMT

#5657

On November 10 2016 00:25 Sheik_ wrote:
Thanks royal I will do that. Not sure about the rules here and so I didn't want to make a thread just for myself. Is there a replay thread that I could post in? Somewhere people post replays and can get analysis

In my opinion it's best that you make a different thread (1) for replays that concerned different match-ups or different strategies.

But it's also perfectly fine if you make a dedicated help thread (2) for you personally where you can post all your replays and your thoughts. Then people can come in and go really in detail about the games in question.

For example:

1) [H] ZvP: best response(s) to 1 base play

2.) [H] Help Sheik_ get C rank, replay analyses!