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On December 05 2016 10:18 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2016 06:28 Comodore wrote:
What should I do when i scout 11 nexus, last spot scouted and i was 1 gate gas? in pvp.
I feel like if i try to attack i'm behind. If i go nexus I'm behind. If i go reaver tech i dont have enough army to fight becase he have better eco pumping more units. Sometimes you have to accept the fact that because of early build-order choices + scouting pattern, you will be behind. That's normal, and if you could overcome that with some simple trick and suddenly be ahead or not behind, then there wouldn't be much purpose in doing builds like 12 Nexus, would there? If he's going 12 Nexus, 2 Gate Zeal, look at what he has going for himself: 2 Mineral lines/Nexus = eco, 2 Gate Zealot Production. What you have going for you: You know what your enemy is doing, should be safe from any immediate danger, tech advantage + gas advantage, will be able to kill scout before he can do the same for you. So, what would I recommend? Reaver bust is always viable in this scenario. I would get range after Robo. Even if you can't bust him, you can do economic damage, contain him, and expand behind it yourself. You can drop Reaver on his mineral lines because he is more likely to be concerned about you coming to bust from the front and might not have Dragoons in position. He certainly shouldn't have Observers to clue him in on your flight path/see you behind his natural minerals on FS. You can try to go for a cheesy drop like 2 Zeal 2 DT on his main - that should do a lot of damage to him, and DTs will prevent him from countering you for a while. You can expand and then add a Gateway - your eco might be a little behind, but your Dragoon count and range timing should be far superior to his so all you have to do is hold any potential Zealot aggression. You can't be ahead in every game you play. Try to work with what you have and abuse what your opponent does not.
Thanks for the detailed answer. I just don't know when to expand while teching to reaver. If just after making robo and before reaver or add gate and just try to take exp after some damage done.
I think I just need to play more and try it till i get it.
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How do I deal with guardians in ZvZ? It always seems like there is no way to deal with them appropriately since they each take two scourge to kill, and when there are 18-24 guardians, I essentially need 36-48 scourge, which is difficult to produce and use properly in time. I was thinking that hydra/swarm might be good, but the guardians always move out of range, and my opponent snipes my defiler with a broodling. I've tried getting burrow for my defiler, but it seems like the broodling always hits before the unit actually burrows, so I dunno.
Any advice here would be greatly appreciated.
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Lol nina I don't have any tips but I like how you describe going vs guardians and queen broodling sniping your defilers as a common ZvZ occurrence.
I mean, if he has that many guardians couldn't you go for muta/devourer for air superiority? I guess it depends on how the game had been going thus far which you didn't really go into.
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On December 07 2016 12:25 ninazerg wrote:
How do I deal with guardians in ZvZ? It always seems like there is no way to deal with them appropriately since they each take two scourge to kill, and when there are 18-24 guardians, I essentially need 36-48 scourge, which is difficult to produce and use properly in time. I was thinking that hydra/swarm might be good, but the guardians always move out of range, and my opponent snipes my defiler with a broodling. I've tried getting burrow for my defiler, but it seems like the broodling always hits before the unit actually burrows, so I dunno.
Any advice here would be greatly appreciated.
build corsairs obviously...
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On December 05 2016 06:28 Comodore wrote:
What should I do when i scout 11 nexus, last spot scouted and i was 1 gate gas? in pvp.
I feel like if i try to attack i'm behind. If i go nexus I'm behind. If i go reaver tech i dont have enough army to fight becase he have better eco pumping more units.
Just watched a game where Sky made a proxy robo vs a cross position (2nd position scouted but probably still have time to do it if you scout them last) nexus first. The key part is he built 3 shield batteries to not only keep the reaver alive but to keep your dragoons (I think he produced from just 2 gates) from dying when you push the front cannons. In the game the nexus first player went DTs and he was able to keep his reaver alive long enough for the obs to come out- it ended up being a base race but since he kept the reaver alive it was a pretty easy win.
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On December 07 2016 14:59 f10eqq wrote:Show nested quote +On December 05 2016 06:28 Comodore wrote:
What should I do when i scout 11 nexus, last spot scouted and i was 1 gate gas? in pvp.
I feel like if i try to attack i'm behind. If i go nexus I'm behind. If i go reaver tech i dont have enough army to fight becase he have better eco pumping more units. Just watched a game where Sky made a proxy robo vs a cross position (2nd position scouted but probably still have time to do it if you scout them last) nexus first. The key part is he built 3 shield batteries to not only keep the reaver alive but to keep your dragoons (I think he just made 2) from dying when you push the front cannons. In the game the nexus first player went DTs and he was able to keep his reaver alive long enough for the obs to come out- it ended up being a base race but since he kept the reaver alive it was a pretty easy win.
That sounds amazing. Any chance you know/can request a VOD knowing the specifics?
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On December 07 2016 16:11 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2016 14:59 f10eqq wrote:On December 05 2016 06:28 Comodore wrote:
What should I do when i scout 11 nexus, last spot scouted and i was 1 gate gas? in pvp.
I feel like if i try to attack i'm behind. If i go nexus I'm behind. If i go reaver tech i dont have enough army to fight becase he have better eco pumping more units. Just watched a game where Sky made a proxy robo vs a cross position (2nd position scouted but probably still have time to do it if you scout them last) nexus first. The key part is he built 3 shield batteries to not only keep the reaver alive but to keep your dragoons (I think he just made 2) from dying when you push the front cannons. In the game the nexus first player went DTs and he was able to keep his reaver alive long enough for the obs to come out- it ended up being a base race but since he kept the reaver alive it was a pretty easy win. That sounds amazing. Any chance you know/can request a VOD knowing the specifics?
Here's the Afreeca VOD PvP vs Noble (game at 04:02:00)
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On December 07 2016 12:29 Jonoman92 wrote:
Lol nina I don't have any tips but I like how you describe going vs guardians and queen broodling sniping your defilers as a common ZvZ occurrence.
I mean, if he has that many guardians couldn't you go for muta/devourer for air superiority? I guess it depends on how the game had been going thus far which you didn't really go into.
Well, it's tough to know when to get my spire because my opponent uses his mutalisks to kill all my scouting units, so I'm basically in the dark until I move out, so I really don't know what kind of tech he's going for. I would think going greater spire and then devourer would be a huge investment wasted if he switches to lurkers rather than spending the gas on guardians.
On December 07 2016 14:33 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2016 12:25 ninazerg wrote:
How do I deal with guardians in ZvZ? It always seems like there is no way to deal with them appropriately since they each take two scourge to kill, and when there are 18-24 guardians, I essentially need 36-48 scourge, which is difficult to produce and use properly in time. I was thinking that hydra/swarm might be good, but the guardians always move out of range, and my opponent snipes my defiler with a broodling. I've tried getting burrow for my defiler, but it seems like the broodling always hits before the unit actually burrows, so I dunno.
Any advice here would be greatly appreciated. build corsairs obviously...
Thanks for the troll answer -_-
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i had my doubts that it was a legitimate question
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Germany3128 Posts
I'm currently editing/filling out the old Proleagues on Liquipedia. Currently sitting at 2005 SKY Proleague Round 1 and I am using an old teamliquid thread to fill it in. Does anyone know which map this one 우산국 is ? It was used in 2005 and was played in 2v2. If someone has an English name for the map it would be greatly appreciated.
Edit: Okay went through the wiki 2v2 maps database. If my hangul skills aren't completely wrong it is 'Usan Nation'.
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On December 08 2016 11:55 TheNewEra wrote:
I'm currently editing/filling out the old Proleagues on Liquipedia. Currently sitting at 2005 SKY Proleague Round 1 and I am using an old teamliquid thread to fill it in. Does anyone know which map this one 우산국 is ? It was used in 2005 and was played in 2v2. If someone has an English name for the map it would be greatly appreciated.
Edit: Okay went through the wiki 2v2 maps database. If my hangul skills aren't completely wrong it is 'Usan Nation'.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Ca9v2r1.jpg)
I got the translations "Donghae" or "Umbrella" from Google.
However, when Googling the name itself, it does in fact point to Usan Nation.
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On December 08 2016 11:55 TheNewEra wrote:
I'm currently editing/filling out the old Proleagues on Liquipedia. Currently sitting at 2005 SKY Proleague Round 1 and I am using an old teamliquid thread to fill it in. Does anyone know which map this one 우산국 is ? It was used in 2005 and was played in 2v2. If someone has an English name for the map it would be greatly appreciated.
Edit: Okay went through the wiki 2v2 maps database. If my hangul skills aren't completely wrong it is 'Usan Nation'.
Kingdom of Woosan from medieval Korea.
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why are progamer zergs still playing 12 hatch in zvp on standard maps?
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On December 08 2016 21:03 Bakuryu wrote:
why are progamer zergs still playing 12 hatch in zvp on standard maps?
What should they play instead?
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On December 08 2016 21:13 [[Starlight]] wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2016 21:03 Bakuryu wrote:
why are progamer zergs still playing 12 hatch in zvp on standard maps? What should they play instead?
overpool
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Bisutopia19300 Posts
On December 08 2016 23:17 Bakuryu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 08 2016 21:13 [[Starlight]] wrote:On December 08 2016 21:03 Bakuryu wrote:
why are progamer zergs still playing 12 hatch in zvp on standard maps? What should they play instead? overpool
Well, let's just theorize what 12 hatch can lead to:
* faster extra larva
* faster extra drones
* faster macro hatchery or faster natural gas
Positives in the early game:
* 3 hatch hydra timings
* Strong lurker timing (more gas mined after lair/aspect is done if you took a faster gas too)
* Two base muta timing (a less common build obviously)
Negatives:
* Tougher against gateway first which has become more common
* Later map presence with lings
I do agree that Overpool seems to just be such a safe build order it is hard to argue otherwise, but maybe the economical advantage is worth it for less common builds. I would love to know what you would add/adjust/remove from the nlist.
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Kau
Canada3500 Posts
To add to the negatives column:
* Protoss can cannon rush you more easily
* Protoss doesn't need cannons before all of nexus, gateway, and forge are built
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Bisutopia19300 Posts
On December 09 2016 01:53 Kau wrote:
To add to the negatives column:
* Protoss can cannon rush you more easily
* Protoss doesn't need cannons before all of nexus, gateway, and forge are built
The cannon rush is certainly an issue. But if the protoss goes nexus, gateway, forge without a cannon, couldn't the zerg capitalize by taking a faster third base themselves? I feel like they should be very greedy in response. Although the standard response I see from most zergs is that in stead they pump out a few hydras to force cannons or else they get an easy forge kill.
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Norway28733 Posts
is really cannon rushing a big problem for top zergs?
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On December 07 2016 12:25 ninazerg wrote:
How do I deal with guardians in ZvZ? It always seems like there is no way to deal with them appropriately since they each take two scourge to kill, and when there are 18-24 guardians, I essentially need 36-48 scourge, which is difficult to produce and use properly in time. I was thinking that hydra/swarm might be good, but the guardians always move out of range, and my opponent snipes my defiler with a broodling. I've tried getting burrow for my defiler, but it seems like the broodling always hits before the unit actually burrows, so I dunno.
Any advice here would be greatly appreciated.
Well, I would consider devourers if you have a mutalisk step in your play. Then you can greatly leverage the power of your scourge and muta. And obviously have a shit load of bases around to maximize your output and counter attack with cracklings
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EPT
