EPTSimple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 289
| Forum Index > Brood War Strategy |
|
Retgery
Canada1229 Posts
| ||
|
ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On December 10 2016 07:53 Retgery wrote: Are there any other places to play besides on Iccup? Are there any threads that could be shared with more information on the subject? You can play StarCraft on: - Battle.net - iCCup - Fish - Gameranger - Shieldbattery, coming soon tee-em There are no other servers worth mentioning in my opinion. Do a simple site search and you can find resources. | ||
TheNewEra
Germany3128 Posts
| ||
|
ZeroChrome
Canada1001 Posts
On December 10 2016 09:49 TheNewEra wrote: Does anyone know any resource for the 2005 SKY Proleague Round 2? I can find a thread with all the results to every Proleague beginning 2004 but not for the 2005 R2 :/ Are you looking for the results of every individual game? I found many of the results on korean sites by searching "SKY 프로리그 2005 후기리그 경기결과" + the matchday # (1회차 for the first day of matches, 2회차 for the second day etc, up to 48회차 iirc). Quite a few matches seem to be missing though. This page has the match results, final standings, and playoff bracket without individual games though https://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/SKY_프로리그_2005_후기리그 | ||
|
TheNewEra
Germany3128 Posts
On December 11 2016 04:26 ZeroChrome wrote: Are you looking for the results of every individual game? I found many of the results on korean sites by searching "SKY 프로리그 2005 후기리그 경기결과" + the matchday # (1회차 for the first day of matches, 2회차 for the second day etc, up to 48회차 iirc). Quite a few matches seem to be missing though. This page has the match results, final standings, and playoff bracket without individual games though https://ko.wikipedia.org/wiki/SKY_프로리그_2005_후기리그 Thank you, thank you, thank you! Yes every individual game would be ideal but this is such a big improvement tho, because currently I have nothing to fill out anything of the LP page. Now I can do the standings, and all the match results! Thank you  | ||
|
[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
 as per Liquipedia: 5 Pool is the most aggressive build a Zerg player can do to Protoss. The goal of this build is to catch a Protoss player off guard with extremely early Zerglings, and either win the game outright or prevent a Fast Expand. 4 pools are never used versus Protoss, while both 4 and 5 pools are used vs. Terran or Zerg. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/5_Pool_(vs._Protoss) | ||
|
shall_burn
252 Posts
Usage of 4 & 5 Pools: As most of you are probably already aware, 4 and 5 pools work almost equally for ZvT, and ZvZ, yet for ZvP only 5 pool works. This may be due to the fact that a few second earlier lings make no difference in the early game Protoss defense, and that most ZvP games do not (usually can not) win early game. The exceptions of early game wins may be regarded as flukes, where the Protoss made a fatal risky build order/micro mistake. found in this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/111109-pro-4pool-and-5pool-collection May be there are other opinions? | ||
|
ortseam
996 Posts
| ||
|
[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On December 14 2016 03:28 shall_burn wrote: Usage of 4 & 5 Pools: As most of you are probably already aware, 4 and 5 pools work almost equally for ZvT, and ZvZ, yet for ZvP only 5 pool works. This may be due to the fact that a few second earlier lings make no difference in the early game Protoss defense, and that most ZvP games do not (usually can not) win early game. The exceptions of early game wins may be regarded as flukes, where the Protoss made a fatal risky build order/micro mistake. found in this thread http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/brood-war/111109-pro-4pool-and-5pool-collection May be there are other opinions? Thank you for hunting that down. But that passage still leaves me confused, because 1) On 4-player maps, the Protoss won't always see a 4/5 pool early enough to pylon + cannon in their main in time. So, much of the time, they're in a standard FFE situation. 2) With Protoss FFE, you usually see the cannon at the natural finishing barely in time vs 5-pool lings, or it finishes a few seconds later than that, and a probe pull to the nat is necessary. So, the lings being a few seconds earlier – aka 4 pool – would put even more pressure on Protoss. Sure, if Z is at the first position scouted, then 4 pool is of no help... pylon + cannon in main goes up and is in time even for 4 pool, so Z might as well 5 pool, take out the forge and pylon at the nat, and have a better eco/transition than with 4 pool. BUT, if you don't scout Z that early (which is luck essentially on a 4p map)... not seeing why 4 pool isn't more of a problem for P to deal with than 5 pool. What am I missing? The standard scouting on FFE is pylon-scout, AFAIK. | ||
|
ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On December 13 2016 06:37 [[Starlight]] wrote: I forget... why are you supposed to 5 pool a Protoss and never 4 pool 'em? as per Liquipedia: 5 Pool is the most aggressive build a Zerg player can do to Protoss. The goal of this build is to catch a Protoss player off guard with extremely early Zerglings, and either win the game outright or prevent a Fast Expand. 4 pools are never used versus Protoss, while both 4 and 5 pools are used vs. Terran or Zerg. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/5_Pool_(vs._Protoss) In the case of a 4pool, the Protoss can afford to sacrifice their natural because the Zerg economy cannot 'transition' into economy mode (theoretically, of course) because they have so few drones. With a 5pool, the Zerg can get an overlord and start making drones while messing with the Protoss. 5pool goes: 5/9 - pool 4/9 - drone 5/9 - drone (this leaves 3 supply for 3 larvae to make 6 lings) 6/9 - zerglings 9/9 - overlord 4pool goes: 4/9 - pool 3/9 - drone 4/9 - zerglings Then you're at an 7/9 population and building an overlord would cut zerglings. If you build a fifth drone after your pool, you will have sufficient larvae, but will have around ~100 minerals, rather than a perfect 150. With a 5pool, you can have 6 drones and an overlord. With a 4pool, the Protoss can build a cannon in their main base and protect it with probes. Then the Protoss can get a couple of gateways. With 6 or more zealots, the Zerg player will have to commit larvae to building zerglings or die. At a certain point, a single hatchery producing slow lings will become massively inefficient against two gateways producing zealots, and will be overpowered by the Protoss. | ||
|
byj
525 Posts
| ||
|
Ty2
United States1434 Posts
| ||
|
Probemicro
3708 Posts
On December 19 2016 05:52 Ty2 wrote: Can anyone show me Hiya's TvZ 1 base nuke rush build? He did it vs. Sziky and then refined the build even more and made a tutorial video about it. | ||
|
KameZerg
Sweden1771 Posts
On December 18 2016 10:55 byj wrote: Does anybody have a VOD of a pro doing 1a2a3a4a5a6a? Kinda wondering how they position their fingers for it Personally i do it this way: 1a pressed with your ring finger, now keep the ring finger on the A button. Middle finger for 2 then use the index finger all the way to 6 or 7. For 8 to 0 switch to using the pinky on the A and thumb on the numbers. Play around n see what u find best, pros use what they personally find most comfortable. | ||
|
[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On December 16 2016 00:26 ninazerg wrote: In the case of a 4pool, the Protoss can afford to sacrifice their natural because the Zerg economy cannot 'transition' into economy mode (theoretically, of course) because they have so few drones. With a 5pool, the Zerg can get an overlord and start making drones while messing with the Protoss. 5pool goes: 5/9 - pool 4/9 - drone 5/9 - drone (this leaves 3 supply for 3 larvae to make 6 lings) 6/9 - zerglings 9/9 - overlord 4pool goes: 4/9 - pool 3/9 - drone 4/9 - zerglings Then you're at an 7/9 population and building an overlord would cut zerglings. If you build a fifth drone after your pool, you will have sufficient larvae, but will have around ~100 minerals, rather than a perfect 150. With a 5pool, you can have 6 drones and an overlord. With a 4pool, the Protoss can build a cannon in their main base and protect it with probes. Then the Protoss can get a couple of gateways. With 6 or more zealots, the Zerg player will have to commit larvae to building zerglings or die. At a certain point, a single hatchery producing slow lings will become massively inefficient against two gateways producing zealots, and will be overpowered by the Protoss. Nina, thanks for laying out the eco side of it in-depth. I was aware of it, but only mentioned it in passing in another post ("Might as well 5 pool, take out the forge and pylon at the nat, and have a better eco/transition than with 4 pool"). What I keep wondering about (and which no one's addressed yet), is... on 4p maps, it's hard to see the 4 pool coming *early enough* for P to pylon + cannon in their main in time, yes? For example, with FFE and pylon-scouting, on many 4p maps it works out like this: Z's at the 1st position P scouts – great, P can pylon + cannon in their main in time, no prob. Z's at 2nd position P scouts – not so great. P probably runs into Z's outward-bound lings somewhere around Z's ramp or natural. P could reactively pylon + cannon in their main right then, but Z's gonna show up in P's main significantly before the cannon's done (cannon's around 40% done when Z shows up). Might be better to try and hold at the natural. Z's at 3rd position P scouts – 4 pool lings are already in P's main. And, for the times where P tries to hold their natural, that cannon goes up barely in time (or not quite in time) vs 5-pool lings... a probe pull is usually needed to help block. And 4 pool's earlier than that, so... would the increased pressure/additional probe kills/maybe killing the cannon easily outright be worth it sometimes on 4p maps, where it's hard to see a 4 pool coming *early enough* to reactively pylon + cannon in time in your main? That's what I'm wondering. Not just the eco/transition opportunities, which are pretty clearly superior with 5 pool over 4, just as you say. (maybe Z doesn't like 4 pool vs FFE because it's such a random roll of the dice... if P sees it coming in time, it's just flat hosed, with very slow eco/transition/alternatives... too much risk, even if it goes with potentially more reward?) | ||
Harem
United States11393 Posts
Also, if map is FS and if P spawns top right or bot left, then there are double forge walls in nat that crush these builds. You dont even have to give up your nat in first place. | ||
|
[[Starlight]]
United States1578 Posts
On December 19 2016 16:10 Harem wrote: Protoss doesn't send only one probe to scout. They send the second probe that makes forge to scout in addition to the probe that made the pylon in nat. This lets them find zerg a lot earlier. Also, some Protoss will even send the first probe in a path to intercept first overlord if they know that the zerg likes to scout that way. Point being that there are lot of ways to scout and or assume where zerg is so you can't just assume P is only going to send one probe or is going to be completely blind. Yah, I know you can double scout (pylon-scout then forge-scout), but was going by the Liquipedia FFE build, which is just pylon-scout: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Protoss_FE_(vs._Zerg) . And of course, double-scouting does hurt your eco slightly and delays your cannon(s) slightly. If you pylon-scout, forge-scout vs 4 pool on a typical 4p map, it then looks like this: Pylon-scout finds Z @ 1st position/on 1st try – Pylon + cannon goes up in main in time, es muy bueno. But, if not... Forge-scout goes to 2nd position, finds Z – Probe runs into lings somewhere between the Hatchery and Z's ramp. Pylon + cannon in P main now doesn't finish in time, cannon is maybe 45-55% done when lings show up in main. But, if not... Pylon-scout finds Z at 3rd position – P runs into Z's outward-bound lings somewhere around Z's ramp or natural. Pylon + cannon in main means Z shows up in P's main well before cannon's done (cannon's around 40% built when Z shows up). That's what's annoying with 4 pool.  Also, if map is FS and if P spawns top right or bot left, then there are double forge walls in nat that crush these builds. You dont even have to give up your nat in first place. That is pretty cool. | ||
|
shall_burn
252 Posts
TvZ 1. what is the marine-medic ratio in tvz? 2. when do I switch to mech? (and what if I don't?) ZvP If I go 3 hatch spire 5 hatch hydra after the first 2-6 lings, when do I switch from making drones to hydra? PvZ Do we generally FFE for the second gas? should I take gas at nat ASAP, or should I prioritize mineral saturation? TvT How do I not get contained :X and the last question, as a T how do I fight reaver drops? I tried 2 turrets 2 tanks around each CC, but 2 reavers still do a LOT of damage Thanks in advance | ||
|
Highgamer
1470 Posts
On December 19 2016 22:36 shall_burn wrote: Hi I play random I have some questions TvZ 1. what is the marine-medic ratio in tvz? 2. when do I switch to mech? (and what if I don't?) Thanks in advance 1. I'd say 4:1 is the rule of thumb. If you need faster heal, go 3:1, especially if you don't have that many marines yet. If your marine-count is strong enough relative to Zerg's army to buy time for healing up, less medics are needed. 2. I assume were talking about the situation after a "normal" TvZ midgame-push (marine/medic + around 3 tanks + vessel). You can have a gameplan to go either mech or keep playing bio-heavy for a while - or, if you can do both well, you can decide depending on how well your push is going. If you decide to go mech, you start transitioning while you're pushing, after a good engagement, when you're strong on the map. You start a CC at another main-location while adding factories there and/or in your main. Get mines and use them in key positions (chokes leading to your natural and 3rd-location). If you do this switch, you have to use your push and reinforcements rather to control the map, defend your expansion. Pressure Zerg, but don't overcommit. Don't lose all your forces on the field. Alternatively, you don't start the mech switch, but keep adding barracks (up to 8) and a second starport, and try to deliver a severe blow to Zerg that allows you to end the game or take your 3rd. Use all your irradiates on defilers/lurkers/ultras constantly, and go for some drops. Both endgame-styles are extremely difficult to pull off against good zergs, imo it's much easier to learn defiler-defense and play ultra-ling. So expect quite a few good transition-starts with bad endings... On December 19 2016 22:36 shall_burn wrote: TvT How do I not get contained :X Thanks in advance a) you can open 2fact and go for a contain yourself - or at least have enough army to establish a position outside your natural, then expand and draw a forward tank-line across the map. b) you can go for an economic opening, macro up for a bit behind mines or few siege-tanks (you profit from the defensive position), and then go for the break exactly when your macro-advantage kicks in, maybe pulling a few SCVs to tank the first tank-shots. If your opponent has more units than you early aka your opponent can contain you, there will always be this moment a bit later on where you have more units than him/her for a while or where you have as much as he/she has + more SCVs to sacrifice. You can figure out the right time to break by looking at replays where you either went too early/with to few units, or you went too late/your opponents contain was too strong already. On December 19 2016 22:36 shall_burn wrote: and the last question, as a T how do I fight reaver drops? I tried 2 turrets 2 tanks around each CC, but 2 reavers still do a LOT of damage Thanks in advance You need a) to know that reavers are coming. If Protoss doesn't have a lot of goons and/or a nexus early on, it's probably DTs or reaver-drop. Reaver-harrass can also come a little later, even if protoss expanded/built goons, so get turrets anyway after a while unless you know otherwise. b) turrets against the shuttle, just so that Protoss cannot keep picking up the reaver/support units again and again. Build a turret ring around your main+natural, using the full range of the turrets so that you don't build too many. c) enough tanks/units on the ground in relation to what Protoss has d) you have to focus-fire the reaver(s), don't let your units fire at the zealot/goon that is being dropped first, baiting shots. e) use the F-keys to quickly transfer all your workers from one mineral-line to another. If you react quick enough, the reaver oftentimes will hardly do any real economic damage except for killing a turret or a depot or so until your units arrive. If Protoss already has 2 reavers out, you should have enough tanks to leave one or two sieged at every CC, but leave the rest unsieged to react. You can spread mines in your main if you have them already, in places where Protoss is likely to find a spot to drop the reaver. Remember that reaver-drops are not a cheesy-surprise strat but a strong, viable way to harrass. It takes experience/muscle memory/good control to defend them, so some of them have to be successful from time to time. Also, reavers are expensive, Protoss cannot have multiple reavers and a big army and a good economy. So, many reavers means less of something else, so you can lose a few units/SCVs and still be even/ahead. Best way to learn stuff like that is to watch the pros: + Show Spoiler + | ||
|
TheNewEra
Germany3128 Posts
KPGA KeMongSa Team League Korean Wiki Edit: It seems that KTF and SouL played a decider to determine the 2nd and 3rd place. Conveniently not mentionend (I think) on Korean Wiki  | ||
| ||
