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On December 19 2016 22:36 shall_burn wrote:
Hi I play random I have some questions
ZvP
If I go 3 hatch spire 5 hatch hydra after the first 2-6 lings, when do I switch from making drones to hydra?
PvZ
Do we generally FFE for the second gas? should I take gas at nat ASAP, or should I prioritize mineral saturation?
Thanks in advance
your zvp question is probably one of the more difficult questions to answer. if you knew exactly when to switch between unit and drone production youd already be a top tier zerg (aside from mechanics issues).
the most general answer i could give is you want to pump as many drones as you can early game and saturate your bases as fast as possible. if this gets delayed or never comes to fruition, expect a difficult game. the point where you make the switch to unit production wont be the same in all of your games. some games the protoss may be happy to sit back and take a 3rd and just run around with corsairs and dt/zealots, whereas other games he may try to bust your simcity. you need good scouting and an understanding of what toss is going to try to do so that you can decide whether you can pump another round of drones out or if you need to get your hydras and lurkers out asap.
for pvz the 2nd gas is extremely important for the build, but there is no need to really "prioritise" anything. mineral saturation is just as important, as the build when followed correctly is actually tight on both resources.
you should be bringing 4-6 probes from your main to your nat when you complete the 2nd nexus. after some probe pumping (meanwhile your core should be building, assimilator in main building/built), you get your 2nd assimilator at nat.
from memory, assuming +1 speed zeal build, the gas at main/nat go up at 22/24 supply respectively.
if you dont have any downtime with your building sequence, you should have enough resources for corsairs, +1 weapon, speed, +1 air attack, templar archives etc without floating too much or not having enough. after pumping some zealots, you should build up a decent sized bank for gas, which allows you to get dragoon range, dragoons and ht + storm later on.
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On December 20 2016 07:53 TheNewEra wrote:Anyone with some Korean skills here who can say what the 2nd and 3rd table are about? Why does SouL get 2nd even though KTF is better? KPGA KeMongSa Team League Korean Wiki
Seems like the individual game results decided the rankings, so even though KTF won 2 more matches they finished with the same record (16 wins 11 losses) as Soul. Soul won head-to-head against KT (6-4 record) which puts them ahead I guess.
I haven't a fucking clue what that league format is supposed to be though so I could be wrong.
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Germany3128 Posts
On December 20 2016 08:10 ZeroChrome wrote:Seems like the individual game results decided the rankings, so even though KTF won 2 more matches they finished with the same record (16 wins 11 losses) as Soul. Soul won head-to-head against KT (6-4 record) which puts them ahead I guess. I haven't a fucking clue what that league format is supposed to be though so I could be wrong.
That's also what I understood from browsing Namu wiki  Well I'll just Roll with it for LP
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Thank you Highgamer and Evilfatsh1t. This was very helpful. Now it is all a lot clearer.
As for TvZ I was just wondering, why do people switch to mech play, is bio TvZ less effective or just harder, beause marines are cheaper, smaller, got less hp (=harder to manage)?
It's also interesting how back then protosses struggled in PvZ before FFE arrived, and now more and more tend to play off 1 base or gate expand. Kinda turned backwards?
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For TvZ, first of all it is harder to manage lategame bio and if Z properly defends vs drops, there is no way you will ever break lurker defiler defenses or any dark swarms with more than 1 lurker in it. Even if Z does not continuously cast dark swarms to defend themselves they can still defend relatively well because lurkers themselves still do very well on their own vs bio. Versus Mech Zerg has to pay a significant price to advance his dark swarms because of tank splash and/or mines.
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On December 20 2016 17:58 shall_burn wrote:
Thank you Highgamer and Evilfatsh1t. This was very helpful. Now it is all a lot clearer.
As for TvZ I was just wondering, why do people switch to mech play, is bio TvZ less effective or just harder, beause marines are cheaper, smaller, got less hp (=harder to manage)?
It's also interesting how back then protosses struggled in PvZ before FFE arrived, and now more and more tend to play off 1 base or gate expand. Kinda turned backwards?
Mech is just more efficient on maps that you can split easily like FS. SK Terran (bio + vessel cloud + drops) is mechanically harder, but it's a completely viable way to play and potentially an even better way for a newer player that wants to work on their mechanics. Some guides:
Nina's Guide on the Mech Switch
SK Terran Liquipedia page (see example games)
I wouldn't say 1 base is "standard" in any matchup except maybe PvP and ZvZ. Gate expands in PvZ are more common because Tosses just got better at defending vs early pools (see Shuttle vs Effort in ASL1).
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thank you, f10eqq and Cryoc
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On December 20 2016 17:58 shall_burn wrote:
It's also interesting how back then protosses struggled in PvZ before FFE arrived, and now more and more tend to play off 1 base or gate expand. Kinda turned backwards?
1 base is not really common (at pro level. 1 gate is still a fast expand that is superior to FFE because it's safe on modern maps and it forces a ton of lings without really sacrificing expansion or tech timing. The zealot pressure also makes all-ins much more weaker (timing is worse due to ling production, easier to scout due to zealot pressure)
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If you can get a hatch down vs. forge FE on spawns that don't allow easy cannon rushes, are you ahead of Forge-Nexus-Gateway build by the Protoss (because he scouts you early not super early)?
Or is it better to go overpool/12 pool and force a cannon (while making only 2 lings and 2 drones instead of 6 lings)?
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Where can I get the latest version of mcalauncher?
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On December 21 2016 06:48 iopq wrote:
If you can get a hatch down vs. forge FE on spawns that don't allow easy cannon rushes, are you ahead of Forge-Nexus-Gateway build by the Protoss (because he scouts you early not super early)?
Or is it better to go overpool/12 pool and force a cannon (while making only 2 lings and 2 drones instead of 6 lings)?
if you can get away with hatch first, always go hatch first.
it doesnt make you get "ahead" so to say, you just have a better start. earlier hatch = more drones.
from zerg's perspective your aim early game isnt to slow down protoss. toss will get all their shit done despite everything you do to gain small advantages anyway, so its better to focus on your own growth while you can (early game) before the inevitable protoss attacks start coming
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On December 21 2016 09:18 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2016 06:48 iopq wrote:
If you can get a hatch down vs. forge FE on spawns that don't allow easy cannon rushes, are you ahead of Forge-Nexus-Gateway build by the Protoss (because he scouts you early not super early)?
Or is it better to go overpool/12 pool and force a cannon (while making only 2 lings and 2 drones instead of 6 lings)? if you can get away with hatch first, always go hatch first. it doesnt make you get "ahead" so to say, you just have a better start. earlier hatch = more drones. from zerg's perspective your aim early game isnt to slow down protoss. toss will get all their shit done despite everything you do to gain small advantages anyway, so its better to focus on your own growth while you can (early game) before the inevitable protoss attacks start coming
But that's my question, if Protoss has corsairs way before I have scourge and really hurt my econ it might not be worth
In ZvT I see pros almost always go hatch first, in ZvP I see them almost always go overpool
On December 21 2016 08:37 ninazerg wrote:
Where can I get the latest version of mcalauncher?
http://mca64.com/mca64Launcher/index.htm
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On December 21 2016 10:50 iopq wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2016 09:18 evilfatsh1t wrote:On December 21 2016 06:48 iopq wrote:
If you can get a hatch down vs. forge FE on spawns that don't allow easy cannon rushes, are you ahead of Forge-Nexus-Gateway build by the Protoss (because he scouts you early not super early)?
Or is it better to go overpool/12 pool and force a cannon (while making only 2 lings and 2 drones instead of 6 lings)? if you can get away with hatch first, always go hatch first. it doesnt make you get "ahead" so to say, you just have a better start. earlier hatch = more drones. from zerg's perspective your aim early game isnt to slow down protoss. toss will get all their shit done despite everything you do to gain small advantages anyway, so its better to focus on your own growth while you can (early game) before the inevitable protoss attacks start coming But that's my question, if Protoss has corsairs way before I have scourge and really hurt my econ it might not be worth In ZvT I see pros almost always go hatch first, in ZvP I see them almost always go overpool Show nested quote +On December 21 2016 08:37 ninazerg wrote:
Where can I get the latest version of mcalauncher? http://mca64.com/mca64Launcher/index.htm
Thank you so much!
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On December 21 2016 10:50 iopq wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2016 09:18 evilfatsh1t wrote:On December 21 2016 06:48 iopq wrote:
If you can get a hatch down vs. forge FE on spawns that don't allow easy cannon rushes, are you ahead of Forge-Nexus-Gateway build by the Protoss (because he scouts you early not super early)?
Or is it better to go overpool/12 pool and force a cannon (while making only 2 lings and 2 drones instead of 6 lings)? if you can get away with hatch first, always go hatch first. it doesnt make you get "ahead" so to say, you just have a better start. earlier hatch = more drones. from zerg's perspective your aim early game isnt to slow down protoss. toss will get all their shit done despite everything you do to gain small advantages anyway, so its better to focus on your own growth while you can (early game) before the inevitable protoss attacks start coming But that's my question, if Protoss has corsairs way before I have scourge and really hurt my econ it might not be worth In ZvT I see pros almost always go hatch first, in ZvP I see them almost always go overpool Show nested quote +On December 21 2016 08:37 ninazerg wrote:
Where can I get the latest version of mcalauncher? http://mca64.com/mca64Launcher/index.htm
you didnt understand my point.
forcing protoss to get a cannon is hardly going to slow down his tech. protoss tech timings are going to be pretty much the same in most games, assuming standard openings. the difference in each game is how well the zerg managed to drone up while protoss was teching. if zerg didnt get enough drones then he will feel that the corsairs are earlier than usual, when in fact its just the zerg being slower than usual. thats why you focus on your own growth as zerg instead of focusing on how to slow down toss. therefore, go hatch first if you can because you will be in a better position to whore drones and get a stronger economy. dont go hatch first if you arent confident with your zergling micro and early defense (which is probably the only reason some pro zergs opt not to go hatch first. protoss pros have gotten better at zealot control etc).
also, typically protoss should be able to get 1 overlord kill no matter how quick you are with your tech. 2 is good for protoss and annoying for zerg, but not unwinnable.
there are other ways to defend your overlords though, such as hiding them in smart places that toss players shouldnt normally fly past.
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On December 21 2016 14:01 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2016 10:50 iopq wrote:On December 21 2016 09:18 evilfatsh1t wrote:On December 21 2016 06:48 iopq wrote:
If you can get a hatch down vs. forge FE on spawns that don't allow easy cannon rushes, are you ahead of Forge-Nexus-Gateway build by the Protoss (because he scouts you early not super early)?
Or is it better to go overpool/12 pool and force a cannon (while making only 2 lings and 2 drones instead of 6 lings)? if you can get away with hatch first, always go hatch first. it doesnt make you get "ahead" so to say, you just have a better start. earlier hatch = more drones. from zerg's perspective your aim early game isnt to slow down protoss. toss will get all their shit done despite everything you do to gain small advantages anyway, so its better to focus on your own growth while you can (early game) before the inevitable protoss attacks start coming But that's my question, if Protoss has corsairs way before I have scourge and really hurt my econ it might not be worth In ZvT I see pros almost always go hatch first, in ZvP I see them almost always go overpool you didnt understand my point. forcing protoss to get a cannon is hardly going to slow down his tech. protoss tech timings are going to be pretty much the same in most games, assuming standard openings. the difference in each game is how well the zerg managed to drone up while protoss was teching. if zerg didnt get enough drones then he will feel that the corsairs are earlier than usual, when in fact its just the zerg being slower than usual. thats why you focus on your own growth as zerg instead of focusing on how to slow down toss. therefore, go hatch first if you can because you will be in a better position to whore drones and get a stronger economy. dont go hatch first if you arent confident with your zergling micro and early defense (which is probably the only reason some pro zergs opt not to go hatch first. protoss pros have gotten better at zealot control etc). also, typically protoss should be able to get 1 overlord kill no matter how quick you are with your tech. 2 is good for protoss and annoying for zerg, but not unwinnable. there are other ways to defend your overlords though, such as hiding them in smart places that toss players shouldnt normally fly past.
So why do Zerg players infrequently do 12 hatch on Fighting Spirit?
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There is a discussion about that starting in page 287
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Related question: what are the proper cannon rush pylon/cannon placements for all 4 naturals on Fighting Spirit?
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On December 22 2016 09:48 iopq wrote:
Related question: what are the proper cannon rush pylon/cannon placements for all 4 naturals on Fighting Spirit?
Lol didn't we experiment enough?
I doubt there is any such resource. You should just start PvZ vs a Zerg computer, Mind Control a Drone, and check your pathing that way. Just show me the money operation cwal in single player and you'll be set.
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Norway28702 Posts
also 'the gathering' so your dark archon doesn't have to wait for energy
and yeah, I would generally recommend doing this for any new player who wants to learn good wallins (both for protoss and terran); start a single player game on your map of choice, pick p, have one terran and one zerg opponent, type operation cwal, show me the money and the gathering (can also do power overwhelming, then you don't have to worry about the computer distracting you), get a dark archon and mind control a drone and an scv. build lings with zerg, build wallins with p and t, check of they are zergling proof, if not, try again in a different manner. As a pedagogue, I can definitely state that for most people, this is a preferable learning method to simply looking at screenshots of how it should be done. 
You can combine the two also; look at screenshots that you manually recreate and test for yourself in this mode. 
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On December 23 2016 04:16 Liquid`Drone wrote:
also 'the gathering'
A word of warning: this cheat also gives all the computers infinite mana points as well.
For build testing, consider the following cheats:
"modify the phase variance" - allows you to build any building or build any unit without the prerequisite structure.
"operation cwal" - builds everything super-fast
"food for thought" - allows you to build past the supply limit. This is useful if you don't want to waste time building overlords/depots/pylons
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EPT
