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Jealous
10405 Posts
On December 09 2016 02:41 Liquid`Drone wrote: is really cannon rushing a big problem for top zergs? + Show Spoiler [ASL] + Hurt Effort somewhat, had the potential to be worse. I understand the benefits of 12 hatch but I feel like pool-first builds put pressure on the Protoss and keeps them honest, which is really annoying as a P player. Shouldn't it also be superior against Gateway-first builds as well? | ||
BisuDagger
Bisutopia19396 Posts
On December 09 2016 03:12 Jealous wrote: + Show Spoiler [ASL] + Hurt Effort somewhat, had the potential to be worse. I understand the benefits of 12 hatch but I feel like pool-first builds put pressure on the Protoss and keeps them honest, which is really annoying as a P player. Shouldn't it also be superior against Gateway-first builds as well? The trade could be a single sunken at the natural if gateway first is scouted. This would be the same as a protoss putting down a cannon based on what they scout. Lings out on the map are nice, but saving 3 larva for drones is huge. | ||
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ortseam
996 Posts
On December 09 2016 00:48 BisuDagger wrote: Well, let's just theorize what 12 hatch can lead to: * faster extra larva * faster extra drones * faster macro hatchery or faster natural gas Positives in the early game: * 3 hatch hydra timings * Strong lurker timing (more gas mined after lair/aspect is done if you took a faster gas too) * Two base muta timing (a less common build obviously) Negatives: * Tougher against gateway first which has become more common * Later map presence with lings I do agree that Overpool seems to just be such a safe build order it is hard to argue otherwise, but maybe the economical advantage is worth it for less common builds. I would love to know what you would add/adjust/remove from the nlist. I think the extra larva is the most important thing here. 2 base muta/lurker isn't really a thing if we are talking about pro level (although Julia has shown a very nice 2 base lurker play but still doesn't need such fast 2nd gas). I think the whole point of 12hatch is to get the additional larva (compared to overpool) against a gate first since the first zealot can be dealt with without any drone losses. That's why we have been seeing it lately (it was almost never seen 1-2 years ago), as a response to the now standard one gate opening Also, early game sunken is bad for standard ZvP since you will have 2 places to defend anyway and it's a big investment(delays 3rd hatch so much) | ||
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Jealous
10405 Posts
On December 09 2016 07:17 ortseam wrote: I think the extra larva is the most important thing here. 2 base muta/lurker isn't really a thing if we are talking about pro level (although Julia has shown a very nice 2 base lurker play but still doesn't need such fast 2nd gas). I think the whole point of 12hatch is to get the additional larva (compared to overpool) against a gate first since the first zealot can be dealt with without any drone losses. That's why we have been seeing it lately (it was almost never seen 1-2 years ago), as a response to the now standard one gate opening Also, early game sunken is bad for standard ZvP since you will have 2 places to defend anyway and it's a big investment(delays 3rd hatch so much) By that logic, why wouldn't Zergs have done 12 hatch more often in the past when there WASN'T an early Zealot threat and Protoss favored going FFE? Seems like that is when 12 hatch would have reaped more benefits. | ||
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ortseam
996 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28914 Posts
12 hatch vs FFE (without protoss slapping down useless cannon(s) ) tends to have protoss getting super fast tech and zerg actually being stuck on 2 bases longer than if they overpooled - the lack of forced early cannon or zealot gives them a super fast cyber core, which leads to z having to sacrifice either a fast third or fast tech. When protoss goes gate first and applies zealot pressure, they themselves delay their tech, so you don't get the same issue. | ||
TheNewEra
Germany3128 Posts
Edit: Okay he isn't. Damn :/ | ||
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McRatyn
Poland901 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/75_CCoMa There is a different Ccoma in the TLPD, but since he has no game entries there I'm not sure how legit it is. Edit: Poster above me already answered himself  | ||
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TheNewEra
Germany3128 Posts
On December 09 2016 09:44 McRatyn wrote: + Show Spoiler + http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/75_CCoMa There is a different Ccoma in the TLPD, but since he has no game entries there I'm not sure how legit it is. Edit: Poster above me already answered himself Thanks anyways for helping out. He has no game entries because he only played 2v2's his whole career  I tagged the wrong CComa like 30 times on LP on the Proleague sites | ||
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Jealous
10405 Posts
On December 09 2016 10:09 TheNewEra wrote: Thanks anyways for helping out. He has no game entries because he only played 2v2's his whole career I tagged the wrong CComa like 30 times on LP on the Proleague sites Keep up the good work man | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On December 09 2016 03:12 Jealous wrote: + Show Spoiler [ASL] + Hurt Effort somewhat, had the potential to be worse. I understand the benefits of 12 hatch but I feel like pool-first builds put pressure on the Protoss and keeps them honest, which is really annoying as a P player. Shouldn't it also be superior against Gateway-first builds as well? Not on the map Fucker Spirit, where you do a one-hex wall-off and get a cannon in time for overpool. | ||
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shall_burn
252 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28914 Posts
I guess there's a possibility that you somehow wrote /f off and then you no longer get friend messages? At least on iccup I don't think you can have friend messages but not have enter/leave notifications, but I think /f off or /f on turns both on or off. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8937 Posts
On December 09 2016 19:33 Liquid`Drone wrote: you need to have friends I guess there's a possibility that you somehow wrote /f off and then you no longer get friend messages? At least on iccup I don't think you can have friend messages but not have enter/leave notifications, but I think /f off or /f on turns both on or off. i was gonna say that top line myself, but decided against it as it was too strong a burn | ||
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shall_burn
252 Posts
you need to have friends I guess there's a possibility that you somehow wrote /f off and then you no longer get friend messages? At least on iccup I don't think you can have friend messages but not have enter/leave notifications, but I think /f off or /f on turns both on or off. That's the problem, I have friends on-line, but I don't get messages about their activity on iccup. They create/join/leave games, and no message comes, although the persone is for sure in my friend-list, for as I type /f l they are in the list. I remember that like a year ago I had these messages. I also remember that once I was typing random commands and somehow enabled this thing, that tells you about everyone who joins and leaves the channel. I couldn't switch it off, and that was very annoying, so I wrote in chat how do I switch that off? Sbd told me a command, and it all stopped. Idk if this is connected with the issue that I've got now, but may be I have somehow blocked all the messages and here is the result. I also tried /f on and /f off, but it did not work. Guess I'll have to reinstal the launcher, then | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28914 Posts
Edit: press Alt-V and it should be fixed! | ||
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TheNewEra
Germany3128 Posts
Will do | ||
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shall_burn
252 Posts
ohhh, that's enter/leave notifications, not relating to your friend list. I don't remember how to turn those on and off but it's a simple key command, I'll try to figure it out. No need to reinstall anything. Edit: press Alt-V and it should be fixed! thank you that you tried, but that wasn't the thing I was looking for I just want to know, when my friends show up. I can type /f o from time to time, but other people simply get notifications, and I don't for some reason. Also, I reinstalled and to no result. Gotta put up with it, I guess | ||
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Comodore
Brazil51 Posts
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shall_burn
252 Posts
Are you sure that they added at their friend list as well? If you add them but they don't, you won't receive any notification oh here it is. I just changed my account, added my friends, and that was it. Thank you very much | ||
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