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Simple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 288

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10126 Posts
December 08 2016 18:12 GMT
#5741
On December 09 2016 02:41 Liquid`Drone wrote:
is really cannon rushing a big problem for top zergs?

+ Show Spoiler [ASL] +
Hurt Effort somewhat, had the potential to be worse.


I understand the benefits of 12 hatch but I feel like pool-first builds put pressure on the Protoss and keeps them honest, which is really annoying as a P player. Shouldn't it also be superior against Gateway-first builds as well?
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
BisuDagger
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Bisutopia19229 Posts
December 08 2016 20:01 GMT
#5742
On December 09 2016 03:12 Jealous wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 09 2016 02:41 Liquid`Drone wrote:
is really cannon rushing a big problem for top zergs?

+ Show Spoiler [ASL] +
Hurt Effort somewhat, had the potential to be worse.


I understand the benefits of 12 hatch but I feel like pool-first builds put pressure on the Protoss and keeps them honest, which is really annoying as a P player. Shouldn't it also be superior against Gateway-first builds as well?

The trade could be a single sunken at the natural if gateway first is scouted. This would be the same as a protoss putting down a cannon based on what they scout. Lings out on the map are nice, but saving 3 larva for drones is huge.
ModeratorFormer Afreeca Starleague Caster: http://afreeca.tv/ASL2ENG2
ortseam
Profile Joined April 2015
996 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-12-08 22:18:38
December 08 2016 22:17 GMT
#5743
On December 09 2016 00:48 BisuDagger wrote:
Well, let's just theorize what 12 hatch can lead to:
* faster extra larva
* faster extra drones
* faster macro hatchery or faster natural gas

Positives in the early game:
* 3 hatch hydra timings
* Strong lurker timing (more gas mined after lair/aspect is done if you took a faster gas too)
* Two base muta timing (a less common build obviously)

Negatives:
* Tougher against gateway first which has become more common
* Later map presence with lings


I do agree that Overpool seems to just be such a safe build order it is hard to argue otherwise, but maybe the economical advantage is worth it for less common builds. I would love to know what you would add/adjust/remove from the nlist.

I think the extra larva is the most important thing here. 2 base muta/lurker isn't really a thing if we are talking about pro level (although Julia has shown a very nice 2 base lurker play but still doesn't need such fast 2nd gas). I think the whole point of 12hatch is to get the additional larva (compared to overpool) against a gate first since the first zealot can be dealt with without any drone losses. That's why we have been seeing it lately (it was almost never seen 1-2 years ago), as a response to the now standard one gate opening

Also, early game sunken is bad for standard ZvP since you will have 2 places to defend anyway and it's a big investment(delays 3rd hatch so much)
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10126 Posts
December 08 2016 22:29 GMT
#5744
On December 09 2016 07:17 ortseam wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 09 2016 00:48 BisuDagger wrote:
Well, let's just theorize what 12 hatch can lead to:
* faster extra larva
* faster extra drones
* faster macro hatchery or faster natural gas

Positives in the early game:
* 3 hatch hydra timings
* Strong lurker timing (more gas mined after lair/aspect is done if you took a faster gas too)
* Two base muta timing (a less common build obviously)

Negatives:
* Tougher against gateway first which has become more common
* Later map presence with lings


I do agree that Overpool seems to just be such a safe build order it is hard to argue otherwise, but maybe the economical advantage is worth it for less common builds. I would love to know what you would add/adjust/remove from the nlist.

I think the extra larva is the most important thing here. 2 base muta/lurker isn't really a thing if we are talking about pro level (although Julia has shown a very nice 2 base lurker play but still doesn't need such fast 2nd gas). I think the whole point of 12hatch is to get the additional larva (compared to overpool) against a gate first since the first zealot can be dealt with without any drone losses. That's why we have been seeing it lately (it was almost never seen 1-2 years ago), as a response to the now standard one gate opening

Also, early game sunken is bad for standard ZvP since you will have 2 places to defend anyway and it's a big investment(delays 3rd hatch so much)

By that logic, why wouldn't Zergs have done 12 hatch more often in the past when there WASN'T an early Zealot threat and Protoss favored going FFE? Seems like that is when 12 hatch would have reaped more benefits.
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
ortseam
Profile Joined April 2015
996 Posts
December 08 2016 22:43 GMT
#5745
Well, P can 12 nexus/cannon rush. 12 nex vs 12 hatch gives advantage to P, cannon rush depends (Rain predicted 12 hatch and sent a 2nd probe right away). I remember Bisu cannon rushing JD in some replay on CB so i guess it's quite solid. While with overpool in this case you can open with 2 lings and still force a cannon (P is fucked if 6 lings and late cannon)
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28642 Posts
December 08 2016 22:43 GMT
#5746
Honestly if I 12 hatch, the builds I want to be up against are 1 gateway openings. Either 1 gate nexus or 1 gate tech, super happy to face either. Much less happy if up against 2 gate outside their natural or nexus first then forge. I guess the best is when they go forge then cannon then nexus but that doesn't seem to happen when the p is good. Basically my impression is that if you overpool and he does 1 gate into nexus is that well, defending is easy, but you don't really deal much (if any) damage, and the extra lings you had to make hurt you because you weren't building drones then. Hatch first and you can fend off the zealots from 1 gate while also droning up. So pretty much in total agreement with ortseam.

12 hatch vs FFE (without protoss slapping down useless cannon(s) ) tends to have protoss getting super fast tech and zerg actually being stuck on 2 bases longer than if they overpooled - the lack of forced early cannon or zealot gives them a super fast cyber core, which leads to z having to sacrifice either a fast third or fast tech. When protoss goes gate first and applies zealot pressure, they themselves delay their tech, so you don't get the same issue.
Moderator
TheNewEra
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany3128 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-12-09 00:40:23
December 08 2016 23:44 GMT
#5747
Does anyone randomnly know if this guy http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/I.Love_Star with the alternate ID dark)CCoMa is the same player as the player CCoMa who was one of the best 2v2 players especially in 2004 (see here: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/2004_SKY_Proleague_Round_2/Results#Player_Standings) ?

Edit: Okay he isn't. Damn :/
Midas <3 Casy <3 BeSt <3 | Pray to Doh-men, heathens! | Zwischen Harz und Heideland
McRatyn
Profile Joined January 2013
Poland901 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-12-09 00:45:08
December 09 2016 00:44 GMT
#5748
+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/75_CCoMa

There is a different Ccoma in the TLPD, but since he has no game entries there I'm not sure how legit it is.


Edit: Poster above me already answered himself
TheNewEra
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany3128 Posts
December 09 2016 01:09 GMT
#5749
On December 09 2016 09:44 McRatyn wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/75_CCoMa

There is a different Ccoma in the TLPD, but since he has no game entries there I'm not sure how legit it is.


Edit: Poster above me already answered himself


Thanks anyways for helping out.
He has no game entries because he only played 2v2's his whole career I tagged the wrong CComa like 30 times on LP on the Proleague sites
Midas <3 Casy <3 BeSt <3 | Pray to Doh-men, heathens! | Zwischen Harz und Heideland
Jealous
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
10126 Posts
December 09 2016 01:25 GMT
#5750
On December 09 2016 10:09 TheNewEra wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 09 2016 09:44 McRatyn wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/75_CCoMa

There is a different Ccoma in the TLPD, but since he has no game entries there I'm not sure how legit it is.


Edit: Poster above me already answered himself


Thanks anyways for helping out.
He has no game entries because he only played 2v2's his whole career I tagged the wrong CComa like 30 times on LP on the Proleague sites

Keep up the good work man
"The right to vote is only the oar of the slaveship, I wanna be free." -- бум бум сучка!
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
December 09 2016 02:06 GMT
#5751
On December 09 2016 03:12 Jealous wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 09 2016 02:41 Liquid`Drone wrote:
is really cannon rushing a big problem for top zergs?

+ Show Spoiler [ASL] +
Hurt Effort somewhat, had the potential to be worse.


I understand the benefits of 12 hatch but I feel like pool-first builds put pressure on the Protoss and keeps them honest, which is really annoying as a P player. Shouldn't it also be superior against Gateway-first builds as well?


Not on the map Fucker Spirit, where you do a one-hex wall-off and get a cannon in time for overpool.
"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
shall_burn
Profile Joined January 2016
252 Posts
December 09 2016 08:48 GMT
#5752
So on streams I see that players get notifications when their friends enter/leave games. "ur friend xxx entered "1v1" game", smth like that. I remember having same notifications a long time ago, but for some reason now I don't get them. How do I turn them on?
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28642 Posts
December 09 2016 10:33 GMT
#5753
you need to have friends

I guess there's a possibility that you somehow wrote /f off and then you no longer get friend messages? At least on iccup I don't think you can have friend messages but not have enter/leave notifications, but I think /f off or /f on turns both on or off.
Moderator
evilfatsh1t
Profile Joined October 2010
Australia8639 Posts
December 09 2016 11:40 GMT
#5754
On December 09 2016 19:33 Liquid`Drone wrote:
you need to have friends

I guess there's a possibility that you somehow wrote /f off and then you no longer get friend messages? At least on iccup I don't think you can have friend messages but not have enter/leave notifications, but I think /f off or /f on turns both on or off.

i was gonna say that top line myself, but decided against it as it was too strong a burn
shall_burn
Profile Joined January 2016
252 Posts
December 09 2016 11:54 GMT
#5755
you need to have friends

I guess there's a possibility that you somehow wrote /f off and then you no longer get friend messages? At least on iccup I don't think you can have friend messages but not have enter/leave notifications, but I think /f off or /f on turns both on or off.

That's the problem, I have friends on-line, but I don't get messages about their activity on iccup. They create/join/leave games, and no message comes, although the persone is for sure in my friend-list, for as I type /f l
they are in the list.
I remember that like a year ago I had these messages. I also remember that once I was typing random commands and somehow enabled this thing, that tells you about everyone who joins and leaves the channel. I couldn't switch it off, and that was very annoying, so I wrote in chat how do I switch that off? Sbd told me a command, and it all stopped. Idk if this is connected with the issue that I've got now, but may be I have somehow blocked all the messages and here is the result.
I also tried /f on and /f off, but it did not work. Guess I'll have to reinstal the launcher, then
Liquid`Drone
Profile Joined September 2002
Norway28642 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-12-09 12:20:19
December 09 2016 12:18 GMT
#5756
ohhh, that's enter/leave notifications, not relating to your friend list. I don't remember how to turn those on and off but it's a simple key command, I'll try to figure it out. No need to reinstall anything.

Edit: press Alt-V and it should be fixed!
Moderator
TheNewEra
Profile Joined March 2011
Germany3128 Posts
December 09 2016 12:38 GMT
#5757
On December 09 2016 10:25 Jealous wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 09 2016 10:09 TheNewEra wrote:
On December 09 2016 09:44 McRatyn wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/players/75_CCoMa

There is a different Ccoma in the TLPD, but since he has no game entries there I'm not sure how legit it is.


Edit: Poster above me already answered himself


Thanks anyways for helping out.
He has no game entries because he only played 2v2's his whole career I tagged the wrong CComa like 30 times on LP on the Proleague sites

Keep up the good work man

Will do
Midas <3 Casy <3 BeSt <3 | Pray to Doh-men, heathens! | Zwischen Harz und Heideland
shall_burn
Profile Joined January 2016
252 Posts
December 09 2016 13:28 GMT
#5758
ohhh, that's enter/leave notifications, not relating to your friend list. I don't remember how to turn those on and off but it's a simple key command, I'll try to figure it out. No need to reinstall anything.

Edit: press Alt-V and it should be fixed!


thank you that you tried, but that wasn't the thing I was looking for I just want to know, when my friends show up. I can type /f o from time to time, but other people simply get notifications, and I don't for some reason. Also, I reinstalled and to no result. Gotta put up with it, I guess
Comodore
Profile Joined July 2013
Brazil49 Posts
December 09 2016 17:59 GMT
#5759
Are you sure that they added at their friend list as well? If you add them but they don't, you won't receive any notification.
shall_burn
Profile Joined January 2016
252 Posts
December 09 2016 20:03 GMT
#5760
Are you sure that they added at their friend list as well? If you add them but they don't, you won't receive any notification

oh here it is. I just changed my account, added my friends, and that was it. Thank you very much
Prev 1 286 287 288 289 290 482 Next
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