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On October 21 2015 00:05 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 23:14 ybjoony wrote:I think what many people are missing is that Kespa isn't breaking any law - they can't enforce anything outside their org, true, and they are asking for cooperation. Seeing that Afreeca said no, it is entirely up to them if they want to appeal to blizzard or try and create public uproar, or threaten to withdraw their players from GSL if afreeca doesn't comply. They are not breaking any laws by doing that.
And I fully support Kespa for this move, both to discourage more players from being involved in match fixing and to punish those who participated. The very definition of being "PRO" is "paid to participate in a sport or activity" according to merriam and webster dictionary. According to that, those afreeca streamers are pros in their own right, and I don't think those who have been proven to be not deserving of the name "pro" to be in the industry anymore. Also, as far as I know, many korean esports fans despise them too(well, most people in sc and sc2 gallery in dcinside, pgr, inven and fomos, most prominent of korean esports websites) and don't want to see those matchfixers from earning any income from sports they defiled.
About the scale of the ban, I am okay with them as long as they don't gain any income from playing eSports; I am okay with them playing with their friends, okay even with them streaming as long as they don't get any money - which is not the case on Afreeca streamers.
There are also precedence in other sports match fixing in korea where people who matchfixed are banned in other related organizations too- Park hyun-jun, a baseball player banned for matchfixing in 2012 couldn't get to other leagues such as MLB, NPB or CPBL(taiwan league), and was working in his father's pub until recently, when he went to Dominica to play baseball - apparently they don't have agreements with KBO - but nothing stops them from asking dominicans to ban him(although it is up to them whether to accept or not)
Choi-sung kuk, biggest name on soccer match fixing, is working in a hospital(cashier, I think) now because he couldn't get to any other leagues that are registered in FIFA(I saw an article that he was trying to go to marcedonian league, but couldn't because KFA appealed to FIFA to block).
So, conclusion?
1. It is entirely within Kespa's rights to ask for bans from other organizations, and use whatever tools in their shed to let their will known.
2. If it goes to public opinion in Korea, it is most likely that kespa's stance will be supported.
3. There is precedence of other known matchfixers who are effectively blocked from playing for money in the industry Being banned in other leagues of professional play for that particular sport is understandable because they are associate with the sport he cheated in, and competing in sports is the same as being a pro-gamer. It is an electronic sport that a programer competes in. However, being a "streamer" isn't the same as a being a pro-gamer. MC isn't a pro-gamer anymore, he is considered a "professional streamer." While he streams starcraft content nobody considers him a pro-gamer anymore, he is retired. If I make youtube videos and the content is me playing sc2 against other people, that makes me a youtuber and no youtuber is considered a professional gamer (unless they play in professional competition). I don't think people should be banned from being professional streamers because they cheated at a sport. sport |spôrt| noun 1 an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment: team sports such as baseball and soccer | (as modifier sports) : a sports center. An E-sport. An "professional e-sport" is a game both team play in competition for money, which leaves a slightly blurred line. If you play sc2 on stream, you will most likely be competing against others on ladder. However, nobody you compete against will be earning any money from the competition (unless they are streaming, and then the money is ONLY for their stream content and not for the "competition"). You as the streamer might also earn no money because the vast majority of people that stream on twitch don't get ANY money. My guess is you would also be fine with him streaming other games like mariokart, but you don't want him streaming sc2? If he is banned from streaming, they are banning his rights to do any form of streaming, which isn't professional exports. To me this feels more like kespa saying, "Oh you really like the noodles at the stir fry place on the corner, well funny cause I know the owner and guess what your not welcome there." How would you feel if kespa petitioned blizzard to ban his ip from any form of play? I still think a streamer is a streamer and a programer is a programer. Nobody calls a streamer a programer, unless they actually are in active competition and even then, they aren't "competing" on stream. Pro-gamers stream their practice or a lesson, not competition (Showmatch or Tourny is always put on by someone other than that streamer). Imo an action like this doesn't prevent or deter anyone from match-fixing, it just strips more personal rights. Also, isn't jail and a lifetime ban enough punishment for fixing 4 or 1 match? Most or all professional athletes that took steroids didn't even go to jail, and they built entire careers off it, like lance armstrong. How much money did he make based off manipulation? Millions more than anyone in this petty scandal, and never went to jail and kept it all.
You are not using the term "professional" properly. If someone uses streaming to make a living she/he is a professional. It's of course debatable when it becomes a hobby that happens to generate a bit of extra cash, but in general if you make money from something that you dedicate a ton of time to you should be considered a professional.
And in sports there is no such discussion because there is no way to just keep on doing your sport and broadcasting it somehow. And if there was, I'm pretty sure that the big (often global) sports associations would try to shut such banned players down too. His point is very valid, KeSPA is basically just trying to close loopholes from official bans.
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On October 20 2015 12:50 Circumstance wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 12:40 c3rberUs wrote:
sAviOr hasn't streamed since August and pls no, don't ban HwaSin. Streaming is not professional gaming. It's playing a game at set times for money. In Hearthstone, Kripparian might not be a competitive player, but that game is his profession. When you undermine the integrity of the game in any form, that game cannot be your livelihood. Twitch, Afreeca, et al. are being given a request by Kespa. They, as private organizations, are well within their right to decline, as I understand it (if it's a mandate, they can dispute it if they want). I find nothing unreasonable going on here.
I agree. Kespa can ask, and Afreeca can decline. I have mixed feelings about the issue, because I'm nostalgic for a lot of those players... but they did fuck up big time.
On October 20 2015 21:33 Firkraag8 wrote:
Let's ban them from watching StarCraft on TV or hell even using the subway or whatever they use if they want to watch a game live.. This is ridiculous
No, what's ridiculous is your slippery slope fallacy.
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On October 20 2015 23:23 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 23:15 ShambhalaWar wrote:On October 20 2015 23:11 Big J wrote:
Blizzard and KeSPA should just boycott afreeca in whatever way they can. Afreeca is free to pull that shit, but blizzard and KeSPA should do everything in their power to get Starcraft out of this garbage, including choosing other streaming services for anything they do, or they may just bury the game on their own. You should read the op again, I'm not sure you understood what's happening. I'm pretty sure I understood. And as I see it, afreeca is free to not cooperate with a friendly request. But KeSPA and blizzard are also free to use whatever power they have to keep Starcraft and its players away from afreeca. And I think they should use that power under these circumstances.
Maybe I misunderstood  I think the op changed since I last looked at it, but I thought it was only kespa petitioning and not blizzard.
I also think blizzard changing streaming platforms is not a good idea. That would be hurting twitch or afreeca because of what these other people did, which sounds crazy to me. None of this sounds like friendly request to me.
More importantly, how does that keep people from match-fixing?
If harsh punishment was correlated to less crimes committed, the USA would be the most crime free country in the world.
It doesn't work.
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Czech Republic12125 Posts
On October 20 2015 23:53 ybjoony wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 23:25 deacon.frost wrote:On October 20 2015 23:14 ybjoony wrote:
I think what many people are missing is that Kespa isn't breaking any law - they can't enforce anything outside their org, true, and they are asking for cooperation. Seeing that Afreeca said no, it is entirely up to them if they want to appeal to blizzard or try and create public uproar, or threaten to withdraw their players from GSL if afreeca doesn't comply. They are not breaking any laws by doing that.
And I fully support Kespa for this move, both to discourage more players from being involved in match fixing and to punish those who participated. The very definition of being "PRO" is "paid to participate in a sport or activity" according to merriam and webster dictionary. According to that, those afreeca streamers are pros in their own right, and I don't think those who have been proven to be not deserving of the name "pro" to be in the industry anymore. Also, as far as I know, many korean esports fans despise them too(well, most people in sc and sc2 gallery in dcinside, pgr, inven and fomos, most prominent of korean esports websites) and don't want to see those matchfixers from earning any income from sports they defiled.
About the scale of the ban, I am okay with them as long as they don't gain any income from playing eSports; I am okay with them playing with their friends, okay even with them streaming as long as they don't get any money - which is not the case on Afreeca streamers.
There are also precedence in other sports match fixing in korea where people who matchfixed are banned in other related organizations too- Park hyun-jun, a baseball player banned for matchfixing in 2012 couldn't get to other leagues such as MLB, NPB or CPBL(taiwan league), and was working in his father's pub until recently, when he went to Dominica to play baseball - apparently they don't have agreements with KBO - but nothing stops them from asking dominicans to ban him(although it is up to them whether to accept or not)
Choi-sung kuk, biggest name on soccer match fixing, is working in a hospital(cashier, I think) now because he couldn't get to any other leagues that are registered in FIFA(I saw an article that he was trying to go to marcedonian league, but couldn't because KFA appealed to FIFA to block).
So, conclusion?
1. It is entirely within Kespa's rights to ask for bans from other organizations, and use whatever tools in their shed to let their will known.
2. If it goes to public opinion in Korea, it is most likely that kespa's stance will be supported.
3. There is precedence of other known matchfixers who are effectively blocked from playing for money in the industry Your examples are invalid. E-sport != sport. The streaming platform makes a huge difference. They are effectively blocked from playing for money. If the players who you named could stream their activities for so much money they would. Also in sport you have a salary. They had nothing. Maybe we want to start treating players a little bit better before we start destroying their lives with harsh punishments... Edit> It's pathetic to me. We know that teams treat players like slaves and yet we want players to behave like a full payed pro... WTF?! Am I the only one who sees an error here? Esports industry as a whole is trying to fit into sports scene. One aspect of that is their participation in national sports competition(jeon-guk chejeon, 전국체전 in korean) - so it is your stance that is apart from what these people are trying to achieve. Also, they do have salaries, although I acknowledge that it is meagre amount - and the treatment of the players leaves a lot to be desired. However, it is not okay for players to resort to illegitimate means to better their income. Korean esports scene already lost one chance in establishing player union when savior matchfixing happened, which arguably led to this state, and now, it is hard to argue for better treatments when the scene is much smaller compared to what we used to have in BW days. And you seem to be forgetting an important point : those progamers who are slaved away as you so eloquently put it are in there because they chose to. They stay in there because they chose to do so, not because they are forced against their will to play - you can always quit and try your chances elsewhere. General player treatment in minors or B-teams are pretty pathetic - just look at MLB, established league for more than hundred years, yet how much they pay their minor leaguers? http://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/03/minor-leaguers-working-poor-lawsuit-mlb-bud-selig According to this article, from $600 to $1500 a month in 5 month season, not including housing, food in home games or supplies - like bats and gloves(which, all are provided to B-teamers, including public keyboard, computer and mouse) P.S Prime was much worse than that, I know, but we are talking about general proscene here.
NO, we are not. We are talking about Prime. If KeSPA wants harsh punishments but cannot force PRime to pay them money, they are slavers to me as the Prime was. You can say they didn't know - well they are part of them, they are supposed to know.
It is about Prime. Don't start with T1 bullshit, if someone from the A team of T1 wanted to do this their payment from brokers would be much higher because they risk much more! That's the point of salary too.
If KeSPA wants to enforce rules ONLY ON PLAYERS and don't support players in teams... then that's just ... bad.
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On October 21 2015 00:05 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 23:14 ybjoony wrote:I think what many people are missing is that Kespa isn't breaking any law - they can't enforce anything outside their org, true, and they are asking for cooperation. Seeing that Afreeca said no, it is entirely up to them if they want to appeal to blizzard or try and create public uproar, or threaten to withdraw their players from GSL if afreeca doesn't comply. They are not breaking any laws by doing that.
And I fully support Kespa for this move, both to discourage more players from being involved in match fixing and to punish those who participated. The very definition of being "PRO" is "paid to participate in a sport or activity" according to merriam and webster dictionary. According to that, those afreeca streamers are pros in their own right, and I don't think those who have been proven to be not deserving of the name "pro" to be in the industry anymore. Also, as far as I know, many korean esports fans despise them too(well, most people in sc and sc2 gallery in dcinside, pgr, inven and fomos, most prominent of korean esports websites) and don't want to see those matchfixers from earning any income from sports they defiled.
About the scale of the ban, I am okay with them as long as they don't gain any income from playing eSports; I am okay with them playing with their friends, okay even with them streaming as long as they don't get any money - which is not the case on Afreeca streamers.
There are also precedence in other sports match fixing in korea where people who matchfixed are banned in other related organizations too- Park hyun-jun, a baseball player banned for matchfixing in 2012 couldn't get to other leagues such as MLB, NPB or CPBL(taiwan league), and was working in his father's pub until recently, when he went to Dominica to play baseball - apparently they don't have agreements with KBO - but nothing stops them from asking dominicans to ban him(although it is up to them whether to accept or not)
Choi-sung kuk, biggest name on soccer match fixing, is working in a hospital(cashier, I think) now because he couldn't get to any other leagues that are registered in FIFA(I saw an article that he was trying to go to marcedonian league, but couldn't because KFA appealed to FIFA to block).
So, conclusion?
1. It is entirely within Kespa's rights to ask for bans from other organizations, and use whatever tools in their shed to let their will known.
2. If it goes to public opinion in Korea, it is most likely that kespa's stance will be supported.
3. There is precedence of other known matchfixers who are effectively blocked from playing for money in the industry Being banned in other leagues of professional play for that particular sport is understandable because they are associate with the sport he cheated in, and competing in sports is the same as being a pro-gamer. It is an electronic sport that a programer competes in. However, being a "streamer" isn't the same as a being a pro-gamer. MC isn't a pro-gamer anymore, he is considered a "professional streamer." While he streams starcraft content nobody considers him a pro-gamer anymore, he is retired. If I make youtube videos and the content is me playing sc2 against other people, that makes me a youtuber and no youtuber is considered a professional gamer (unless they play in professional competition). I don't think people should be banned from being professional streamers because they cheated at a sport. sport |spôrt| noun 1 an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment: team sports such as baseball and soccer | (as modifier sports) : a sports center. An E-sport. An "professional e-sport" is a game both team play in competition for money, which leaves a slightly blurred line. If you play sc2 on stream, you will most likely be competing against others on ladder. However, nobody you compete against will be earning any money from the competition (unless they are streaming, and then the money is ONLY for their stream content and not for the "competition"). You as the streamer might also earn no money because the vast majority of people that stream on twitch don't get ANY money. My guess is you would also be fine with him streaming other games like mariokart, but you don't want him streaming sc2? If he is banned from streaming, they are banning his rights to do any form of streaming, which isn't professional exports. To me this feels more like kespa saying, "Oh you really like the noodles at the stir fry place on the corner, well funny cause I know the owner and guess what your not welcome there." How would you feel if kespa petitioned blizzard to ban his ip from any form of play? I still think a streamer is a streamer and a programer is a programer. Nobody calls a streamer a programer, unless they actually are in active competition and even then, they aren't "competing" on stream. Pro-gamers stream their practice or a lesson, not competition (Showmatch or Tourny is always put on by someone other than that streamer). Imo an action like this doesn't prevent or deter anyone from match-fixing, it just strips more personal rights. Also, isn't jail and a lifetime ban enough punishment for fixing 4 or 1 match? Most or all professional athletes that took steroids didn't even go to jail, and they built entire careers off it, like lance armstrong. How much money did he make based off manipulation? Millions more than anyone in this petty scandal, and never went to jail and kept it all.
Yeah, well, as I said above, my personal stance is that those ex-pros streaming without gaming is fine. I don't agree with that part on Kespa, but I guess it is something they can negotiate on.
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On October 20 2015 18:28 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 18:17 TRaFFiC wrote:On October 20 2015 18:10 deacon.frost wrote:On October 20 2015 18:07 TRaFFiC wrote:
I don't know what world some people are living in. More and more pros are coming out and saying match fixers are harassing them daily. This means there are likely more players/coaches/betting people involved. We've just hit the head of the iceberg. We need even more strict measures. Strip them of all salary earned in the past.
I have 0 sympathy for people who do this to sc2. They should never be allowed to make a dime from this game again. Well that's easy, they earned nothing so you can strip nothing from their salaries. That's probably the main reason why they match fixed. Because they don't earn ANYTHING while being "professionals". I don't know, a professional player is someone who is being payed for doing their job. They were not payed, are they still professionals?  (well they are, but still...) Even if it's true they earned no salary, all any Korean pro on a kespa team has to do is turn on a webcam 4 hours a day with a donation button and they will make enough donations to eat. Being able to live in a team house and be fed for free is a privilege in itself and one many people would kill for. Salary isn't the only way to make money, but regardless there is no excuse. What they did is worse than cheating. When you earn food and not that good living conditions(though that's applied based on my standards) the entry barrier for corruption is comically low. That's how things work. If you want to stop this you have to give them at least something so you raise the entry barrier 
Were all fully aware of the circumstances as well as the elephant in the room. No need for a captain obvious. However that doesnt change the fact that matchfixing is stupid as fuck and shows no honor. If you dont feel like being a progamer anymore then quit. Any regular job will earn you more money. If youre not trying as a progamer then youre essentially just a guy without dreams who plays computer games all day. Its shit that they didnt get salaries, there should be regulations protecting the players, obviously. But there isnt. As shitty as the situation is, ultimately you as a person have a choice.
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On October 21 2015 00:13 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 00:05 ShambhalaWar wrote:On October 20 2015 23:14 ybjoony wrote:I think what many people are missing is that Kespa isn't breaking any law - they can't enforce anything outside their org, true, and they are asking for cooperation. Seeing that Afreeca said no, it is entirely up to them if they want to appeal to blizzard or try and create public uproar, or threaten to withdraw their players from GSL if afreeca doesn't comply. They are not breaking any laws by doing that.
And I fully support Kespa for this move, both to discourage more players from being involved in match fixing and to punish those who participated. The very definition of being "PRO" is "paid to participate in a sport or activity" according to merriam and webster dictionary. According to that, those afreeca streamers are pros in their own right, and I don't think those who have been proven to be not deserving of the name "pro" to be in the industry anymore. Also, as far as I know, many korean esports fans despise them too(well, most people in sc and sc2 gallery in dcinside, pgr, inven and fomos, most prominent of korean esports websites) and don't want to see those matchfixers from earning any income from sports they defiled.
About the scale of the ban, I am okay with them as long as they don't gain any income from playing eSports; I am okay with them playing with their friends, okay even with them streaming as long as they don't get any money - which is not the case on Afreeca streamers.
There are also precedence in other sports match fixing in korea where people who matchfixed are banned in other related organizations too- Park hyun-jun, a baseball player banned for matchfixing in 2012 couldn't get to other leagues such as MLB, NPB or CPBL(taiwan league), and was working in his father's pub until recently, when he went to Dominica to play baseball - apparently they don't have agreements with KBO - but nothing stops them from asking dominicans to ban him(although it is up to them whether to accept or not)
Choi-sung kuk, biggest name on soccer match fixing, is working in a hospital(cashier, I think) now because he couldn't get to any other leagues that are registered in FIFA(I saw an article that he was trying to go to marcedonian league, but couldn't because KFA appealed to FIFA to block).
So, conclusion?
1. It is entirely within Kespa's rights to ask for bans from other organizations, and use whatever tools in their shed to let their will known.
2. If it goes to public opinion in Korea, it is most likely that kespa's stance will be supported.
3. There is precedence of other known matchfixers who are effectively blocked from playing for money in the industry Being banned in other leagues of professional play for that particular sport is understandable because they are associate with the sport he cheated in, and competing in sports is the same as being a pro-gamer. It is an electronic sport that a programer competes in. However, being a "streamer" isn't the same as a being a pro-gamer. MC isn't a pro-gamer anymore, he is considered a "professional streamer." While he streams starcraft content nobody considers him a pro-gamer anymore, he is retired. If I make youtube videos and the content is me playing sc2 against other people, that makes me a youtuber and no youtuber is considered a professional gamer (unless they play in professional competition). I don't think people should be banned from being professional streamers because they cheated at a sport. sport |spôrt| noun 1 an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment: team sports such as baseball and soccer | (as modifier sports) : a sports center. An E-sport. An "professional e-sport" is a game both team play in competition for money, which leaves a slightly blurred line. If you play sc2 on stream, you will most likely be competing against others on ladder. However, nobody you compete against will be earning any money from the competition (unless they are streaming, and then the money is ONLY for their stream content and not for the "competition"). You as the streamer might also earn no money because the vast majority of people that stream on twitch don't get ANY money. My guess is you would also be fine with him streaming other games like mariokart, but you don't want him streaming sc2? If he is banned from streaming, they are banning his rights to do any form of streaming, which isn't professional exports. To me this feels more like kespa saying, "Oh you really like the noodles at the stir fry place on the corner, well funny cause I know the owner and guess what your not welcome there." How would you feel if kespa petitioned blizzard to ban his ip from any form of play? I still think a streamer is a streamer and a programer is a programer. Nobody calls a streamer a programer, unless they actually are in active competition and even then, they aren't "competing" on stream. Pro-gamers stream their practice or a lesson, not competition (Showmatch or Tourny is always put on by someone other than that streamer). Imo an action like this doesn't prevent or deter anyone from match-fixing, it just strips more personal rights. Also, isn't jail and a lifetime ban enough punishment for fixing 4 or 1 match? Most or all professional athletes that took steroids didn't even go to jail, and they built entire careers off it, like lance armstrong. How much money did he make based off manipulation? Millions more than anyone in this petty scandal, and never went to jail and kept it all. You are not using the term "professional" properly. If someone uses streaming to make a living she/he is a professional. It's of course debatable when it becomes a hobby that happens to generate a bit of extra cash, but in general if you make money from something that you dedicate a ton of time to you should be considered a professional. And in sports there is no such discussion because there is no way to just keep on doing your sport and broadcasting it somehow. And if there was, I'm pretty sure that the big (often global) sports associations would try to shut such banned players down too. His point is very valid, KeSPA is basically just trying to close loopholes from official bans.
I don't understand your point based on what you wrote. Can you explain it again?
My point is not about what is "professional," (would you call a homeless person on the street begging a professional?) but that a streamer and a competitive esport player are two different things. By your logic a player earning money on a stream is a "professional streamer." I would say a professional esport player is required to actually compete in the professional scene, other wise he or she is just a streamer.
Also, that you shouldn't ban a from something related.
Ban him from the sport, fine, but don't ban him from streaming because it's not the same thing (even if he is streaming the game). Just as if the NFL banned a player for cheating, he has every right to coach an amateur team not in that league, and it would be up to the owner of that team if they wanted to hire a cheating player as their coach. For the NFL to try and ban him from doing that if both parties wanted it is an over extension, even if you claim "I'm just protecting the integrity of the NFL."
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Czech Republic12125 Posts
On October 21 2015 00:28 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 18:28 deacon.frost wrote:On October 20 2015 18:17 TRaFFiC wrote:On October 20 2015 18:10 deacon.frost wrote:On October 20 2015 18:07 TRaFFiC wrote:
I don't know what world some people are living in. More and more pros are coming out and saying match fixers are harassing them daily. This means there are likely more players/coaches/betting people involved. We've just hit the head of the iceberg. We need even more strict measures. Strip them of all salary earned in the past.
I have 0 sympathy for people who do this to sc2. They should never be allowed to make a dime from this game again. Well that's easy, they earned nothing so you can strip nothing from their salaries. That's probably the main reason why they match fixed. Because they don't earn ANYTHING while being "professionals". I don't know, a professional player is someone who is being payed for doing their job. They were not payed, are they still professionals? (well they are, but still...) Even if it's true they earned no salary, all any Korean pro on a kespa team has to do is turn on a webcam 4 hours a day with a donation button and they will make enough donations to eat. Being able to live in a team house and be fed for free is a privilege in itself and one many people would kill for. Salary isn't the only way to make money, but regardless there is no excuse. What they did is worse than cheating. When you earn food and not that good living conditions(though that's applied based on my standards) the entry barrier for corruption is comically low. That's how things work. If you want to stop this you have to give them at least something so you raise the entry barrier Were all fully aware of the circumstances as well as the elephant in the room. No need for a captain obvious. However that doesnt change the fact that matchfixing is stupid as fuck and shows no honor. If you dont feel like being a progamer anymore then quit. Any regular job will earn you more money. If youre not trying as a progamer then youre essentially just a guy without dreams who plays computer games all day. Its shit that they didnt get salaries, there should be regulations protecting the players, obviously. But there isnt. As shitty as the situation is, ultimately you as a person have a choice.
You know - this is a perfect opportunity do gain something positive from this SHTF situation. For example KeSPA could start caring about players and their conditions in teams under KeSPA so they don't have the temptation to do some dark stuff like this. A positive motivation is works better than negative one (that's a fact actually, there are studies that support this, most known are from Dan Ariely)
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On October 21 2015 00:18 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 23:23 Big J wrote:On October 20 2015 23:15 ShambhalaWar wrote:On October 20 2015 23:11 Big J wrote:
Blizzard and KeSPA should just boycott afreeca in whatever way they can. Afreeca is free to pull that shit, but blizzard and KeSPA should do everything in their power to get Starcraft out of this garbage, including choosing other streaming services for anything they do, or they may just bury the game on their own. You should read the op again, I'm not sure you understood what's happening. I'm pretty sure I understood. And as I see it, afreeca is free to not cooperate with a friendly request. But KeSPA and blizzard are also free to use whatever power they have to keep Starcraft and its players away from afreeca. And I think they should use that power under these circumstances. Maybe I misunderstood I think the op changed since I last looked at it, but I thought it was only kespa petitioning and not blizzard. I also think blizzard changing streaming platforms is not a good idea. That would be hurting twitch or afreeca because of what these other people did, which sounds crazy to me. None of this sounds like friendly request to me. More importantly, how does that keep people from match-fixing? If harsh punishment was correlated to less crimes committed, the USA would be the most crime free country in the world. It doesn't work.
In general law enforcement is one of the big controls when it comes to such crimes as many studies have shown. And law enforcement is the actual application of punishment, not the theoretical existance.
You can usually overdo law enforcment causing more (actual and social) costs than you generate gain from it, but in this case we are talking about people who commited crimes because their profession didn't pay well enough. Banning them from that profession may actually help them getting their life together and net an extra benefit. (while for example you don't want to ban someone from his job because he did drugs, since that draws such a person even deeper into depressions that he may want to fight with drugs, and also might lead to acquisitive crimes --> higher social costs)
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Czech Republic12125 Posts
On October 21 2015 00:43 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 00:18 ShambhalaWar wrote:On October 20 2015 23:23 Big J wrote:On October 20 2015 23:15 ShambhalaWar wrote:On October 20 2015 23:11 Big J wrote:
Blizzard and KeSPA should just boycott afreeca in whatever way they can. Afreeca is free to pull that shit, but blizzard and KeSPA should do everything in their power to get Starcraft out of this garbage, including choosing other streaming services for anything they do, or they may just bury the game on their own. You should read the op again, I'm not sure you understood what's happening. I'm pretty sure I understood. And as I see it, afreeca is free to not cooperate with a friendly request. But KeSPA and blizzard are also free to use whatever power they have to keep Starcraft and its players away from afreeca. And I think they should use that power under these circumstances. Maybe I misunderstood I think the op changed since I last looked at it, but I thought it was only kespa petitioning and not blizzard. I also think blizzard changing streaming platforms is not a good idea. That would be hurting twitch or afreeca because of what these other people did, which sounds crazy to me. None of this sounds like friendly request to me. More importantly, how does that keep people from match-fixing? If harsh punishment was correlated to less crimes committed, the USA would be the most crime free country in the world. It doesn't work. In general law enforcement is one of the big controls when it comes to such crimes as many studies have shown. And law enforcement is the actual application of punishment, not the theoretical existance. You can usually overdo law enforcment causing more (actual and social) costs than you generate gain from it, but in this case we are talking about people who commited crimes because their profession didn't pay well enough. Banning them from that profession may actually help them getting their life together and net an extra benefit. (while for example you don't want to ban someone from his job because he did drugs, since that draws such a person even deeper into depressions that he may want to fight with drugs, and also might lead to acquisitive crimes --> higher social costs)
We are also talking about people who don't have proper education and don't have a money pillow to get one. And who have their army service in the future.
If they want to get them their shit together, give them their military service now as a part of their punishment. They won't stream, they will rethink their lives and probably get their shit together. Simple, nice, elegant.
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51271 Posts
On October 21 2015 00:48 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 00:43 Big J wrote:On October 21 2015 00:18 ShambhalaWar wrote:On October 20 2015 23:23 Big J wrote:On October 20 2015 23:15 ShambhalaWar wrote:On October 20 2015 23:11 Big J wrote:
Blizzard and KeSPA should just boycott afreeca in whatever way they can. Afreeca is free to pull that shit, but blizzard and KeSPA should do everything in their power to get Starcraft out of this garbage, including choosing other streaming services for anything they do, or they may just bury the game on their own. You should read the op again, I'm not sure you understood what's happening. I'm pretty sure I understood. And as I see it, afreeca is free to not cooperate with a friendly request. But KeSPA and blizzard are also free to use whatever power they have to keep Starcraft and its players away from afreeca. And I think they should use that power under these circumstances. Maybe I misunderstood I think the op changed since I last looked at it, but I thought it was only kespa petitioning and not blizzard. I also think blizzard changing streaming platforms is not a good idea. That would be hurting twitch or afreeca because of what these other people did, which sounds crazy to me. None of this sounds like friendly request to me. More importantly, how does that keep people from match-fixing? If harsh punishment was correlated to less crimes committed, the USA would be the most crime free country in the world. It doesn't work. In general law enforcement is one of the big controls when it comes to such crimes as many studies have shown. And law enforcement is the actual application of punishment, not the theoretical existance. You can usually overdo law enforcment causing more (actual and social) costs than you generate gain from it, but in this case we are talking about people who commited crimes because their profession didn't pay well enough. Banning them from that profession may actually help them getting their life together and net an extra benefit. (while for example you don't want to ban someone from his job because he did drugs, since that draws such a person even deeper into depressions that he may want to fight with drugs, and also might lead to acquisitive crimes --> higher social costs) We are also talking about people who don't have proper education and don't have a money pillow to get one. And who have their army service in the future. If they want to get them their shit together, give them their military service now as a part of their punishment. They won't stream, they will rethink their lives and probably get their shit together. Simple, nice, elegant.
Er, thats what actually happened. Most of the people indicted in the first match fixing scandal (except Savior, probably cause of his dodgy knees) went straight into military service in order to move on from what they did.
Don't be surprised if you hear of Yoda enlisting in the military ASAP as well as making some sort of sob post on Cyworld. As for Gerrard and B4 who have probably been to the military already, meh, who cares about them.
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Czech Republic12125 Posts
On October 21 2015 00:51 GTR wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 00:48 deacon.frost wrote:On October 21 2015 00:43 Big J wrote:On October 21 2015 00:18 ShambhalaWar wrote:On October 20 2015 23:23 Big J wrote:On October 20 2015 23:15 ShambhalaWar wrote:On October 20 2015 23:11 Big J wrote:
Blizzard and KeSPA should just boycott afreeca in whatever way they can. Afreeca is free to pull that shit, but blizzard and KeSPA should do everything in their power to get Starcraft out of this garbage, including choosing other streaming services for anything they do, or they may just bury the game on their own. You should read the op again, I'm not sure you understood what's happening. I'm pretty sure I understood. And as I see it, afreeca is free to not cooperate with a friendly request. But KeSPA and blizzard are also free to use whatever power they have to keep Starcraft and its players away from afreeca. And I think they should use that power under these circumstances. Maybe I misunderstood I think the op changed since I last looked at it, but I thought it was only kespa petitioning and not blizzard. I also think blizzard changing streaming platforms is not a good idea. That would be hurting twitch or afreeca because of what these other people did, which sounds crazy to me. None of this sounds like friendly request to me. More importantly, how does that keep people from match-fixing? If harsh punishment was correlated to less crimes committed, the USA would be the most crime free country in the world. It doesn't work. In general law enforcement is one of the big controls when it comes to such crimes as many studies have shown. And law enforcement is the actual application of punishment, not the theoretical existance. You can usually overdo law enforcment causing more (actual and social) costs than you generate gain from it, but in this case we are talking about people who commited crimes because their profession didn't pay well enough. Banning them from that profession may actually help them getting their life together and net an extra benefit. (while for example you don't want to ban someone from his job because he did drugs, since that draws such a person even deeper into depressions that he may want to fight with drugs, and also might lead to acquisitive crimes --> higher social costs) We are also talking about people who don't have proper education and don't have a money pillow to get one. And who have their army service in the future. If they want to get them their shit together, give them their military service now as a part of their punishment. They won't stream, they will rethink their lives and probably get their shit together. Simple, nice, elegant. Er, thats what actually happened. Most of the people indicted in the first match fixing scandal (except Savior, probably cause of his dodgy knees) went straight into military service in order to move on from what they did. Don't be surprised if you hear of Yoda enlisting in the military ASAP as well as making some sort of sob post on Cyworld. As for Gerrard and B4 who have probably been to the military already, meh, who cares about them.
I am good at reinventing wheel 
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BTW, am I the only one who got feels like Westerners being patronising?
It is very weird to see people saying 'We Europeans !@#$%^, Korea`s law system is !@#$%^&*...' as if Europe`s superiority over SK was for granted.
KeSPA knows that their request is not enforceable, nor able to apply legal limitations. that`s why they 'requested' - cause it`s the streaming sites that have a right to prohibit`em, based on the term that they can prohibit someone`s stream if he/she has an issue that is related with their reputation.
the point is, it`s up to AfreecaTV`s volition. If they refuse it, that`s it. KeSPA cannot do anything. It`s not arrogation nor coercion. Of course, it`s not a violation of the principle of not reopening a settled case. Are we clear?
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Braavos36362 Posts
Great. Fuck these guys I hope they get banned from everything.
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Correct me if I am wrong but as far as I know Afreeca does not require a liecence to use by players.
Kespa should know their own limits, and stick to what they are for.
Its Afreecas show, its their money and their service.
I do think that Afreeca should be the one to implement some sort of standard but its definitly not for Kespa to determine that.
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Nice move by Afreeca, don't let those bullies dictate everything.
Banning them for life from progaming is fine, but streaming is their own personnal business, stop invading that shit.
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On October 21 2015 01:21 Hot_Bid wrote:
Great. Fuck these guys I hope they get banned from everything.
the symptom of the disease is cheaters like this. the disease itsself is that there is no money to be made by playing full time SC2. new guys will come along and do the same damn thing.
a couple of symptoms have been treated and the disease keeps on truckin'
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On October 21 2015 00:05 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 23:14 ybjoony wrote:I think what many people are missing is that Kespa isn't breaking any law - they can't enforce anything outside their org, true, and they are asking for cooperation. Seeing that Afreeca said no, it is entirely up to them if they want to appeal to blizzard or try and create public uproar, or threaten to withdraw their players from GSL if afreeca doesn't comply. They are not breaking any laws by doing that.
And I fully support Kespa for this move, both to discourage more players from being involved in match fixing and to punish those who participated. The very definition of being "PRO" is "paid to participate in a sport or activity" according to merriam and webster dictionary. According to that, those afreeca streamers are pros in their own right, and I don't think those who have been proven to be not deserving of the name "pro" to be in the industry anymore. Also, as far as I know, many korean esports fans despise them too(well, most people in sc and sc2 gallery in dcinside, pgr, inven and fomos, most prominent of korean esports websites) and don't want to see those matchfixers from earning any income from sports they defiled.
About the scale of the ban, I am okay with them as long as they don't gain any income from playing eSports; I am okay with them playing with their friends, okay even with them streaming as long as they don't get any money - which is not the case on Afreeca streamers.
There are also precedence in other sports match fixing in korea where people who matchfixed are banned in other related organizations too- Park hyun-jun, a baseball player banned for matchfixing in 2012 couldn't get to other leagues such as MLB, NPB or CPBL(taiwan league), and was working in his father's pub until recently, when he went to Dominica to play baseball - apparently they don't have agreements with KBO - but nothing stops them from asking dominicans to ban him(although it is up to them whether to accept or not)
Choi-sung kuk, biggest name on soccer match fixing, is working in a hospital(cashier, I think) now because he couldn't get to any other leagues that are registered in FIFA(I saw an article that he was trying to go to marcedonian league, but couldn't because KFA appealed to FIFA to block).
So, conclusion?
1. It is entirely within Kespa's rights to ask for bans from other organizations, and use whatever tools in their shed to let their will known.
2. If it goes to public opinion in Korea, it is most likely that kespa's stance will be supported.
3. There is precedence of other known matchfixers who are effectively blocked from playing for money in the industry Being banned in other leagues of professional play for that particular sport is understandable because they are associate with the sport he cheated in, and competing in sports is the same as being a pro-gamer. It is an electronic sport that a programer competes in. However, being a "streamer" isn't the same as a being a pro-gamer. MC isn't a pro-gamer anymore, he is considered a "professional streamer." While he streams starcraft content nobody considers him a pro-gamer anymore, he is retired. If I make youtube videos and the content is me playing sc2 against other people, that makes me a youtuber and no youtuber is considered a professional gamer (unless they play in professional competition). I don't think people should be banned from being professional streamers because they cheated at a sport. sport |spôrt| noun 1 an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment: team sports such as baseball and soccer | (as modifier sports) : a sports center. An E-sport. An "professional e-sport" is a game both team play in competition for money, which leaves a slightly blurred line. If you play sc2 on stream, you will most likely be competing against others on ladder. However, nobody you compete against will be earning any money from the competition (unless they are streaming, and then the money is ONLY for their stream content and not for the "competition"). You as the streamer might also earn no money because the vast majority of people that stream on twitch don't get ANY money. My guess is you would also be fine with him streaming other games like mariokart, but you don't want him streaming sc2? If he is banned from streaming, they are banning his rights to do any form of streaming, which isn't professional exports. To me this feels more like kespa saying, "Oh you really like the noodles at the stir fry place on the corner, well funny cause I know the owner and guess what your not welcome there." How would you feel if kespa petitioned blizzard to ban his ip from any form of play? I still think a streamer is a streamer and a programer is a programer. Nobody calls a streamer a programer, unless they actually are in active competition and even then, they aren't "competing" on stream. Pro-gamers stream their practice or a lesson, not competition (Showmatch or Tourny is always put on by someone other than that streamer). Imo an action like this doesn't prevent or deter anyone from match-fixing, it just strips more personal rights. Also, isn't jail and a lifetime ban enough punishment for fixing 4 or 1 match? Most or all professional athletes that took steroids didn't even go to jail, and they built entire careers off it, like lance armstrong. How much money did he make based off manipulation? Millions more than anyone in this petty scandal, and never went to jail and kept it all.
What its about is a player cheating and breaking rules that are very serious within a sport.
I don't know how it works in regular sports because I don't follow it.
But Kespa wants to take away the matchficers opportunity to earn money on SC2 at all.
In my world this is similar to for example is a baseball player that got banned for life tried to become a coach or a trainer, I'm pretty sure that would not be allowed. Even though "that would not make them a progamer" but just a coach or a trainer. Someone that knows toher sports are welcome to chime in but in my mind this is not all-bad. I can see both sides.
The other part of the coin is that streaming is breaking copyright to be frawnk with you, no one is actually allowed to show video of gameplay due to the right to do tha tlies with the company that has the rights to the game. The only ones that uses(abuses) this though is nintendo they ban any video on youtube for example that doesn't pay them money. It is is their right.
So if Blizz don't want them to stream Sc2 its pretty damn easy for them to stop them from doing that if we look at it from a law perspective.
So basically all the arguements you are using are flawed.
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On October 20 2015 14:40 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 14:33 StarStruck wrote:On October 20 2015 12:15 Waxangel wrote:
It's totally enforceable if they get Blizzard to tell Afreeca to kill those streams.
You remember that time like six years ago, when KeSPA tried to argue that broadcast rights belonged to anyone BUT the developer of the game? Remember how that shit ended? Yep :/ I'm all for it. Need to have something enforceable anywhere to try and make people think twice before doing it. So they are forcing young kids to stay in a house whole day playing video games for more than 12 hours in many cases without salary and no promise of getting any reward,they wasted their young there,no studies ,then they turn 22 and see how they have nothing to construct their life and loss one game can gave them 3k.usd.i dont support it but i kind of understand their situation.and it is kespa fault at the end.
i'm almost positive that KeSPA made a requirement (sometime in the last 2 years) that any team involved in KeSPA doings has to provide a livable salary, also. that's the kids fault, not the teams... if you can't make a name it's your fault for spending that time not winning.....what kespa is trying to do is discourage what has been done, whether or not you agree that's okay. but if you for once blame the coaches for them doing this shit, bullshit. the coaches approach them yes, but thats when you can say no (and report to KeSPA) or say yes, the stupid people said yes and then when they found out they were to deep they got blackmailed..... that is COMPLETELY their own fault.
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EPT
