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On October 21 2015 09:41 The_Red_Viper wrote:
No they are not progamers, they are streamers and if people want to watch that (and give money to that) then they can.
Streaming is ONLY entertainment, this isn't competetive gaming.
Blame (if you want) the people who watch these guys then, no matchfixer would get any money from streaming if there wasn't demand to watch it.
The matchfixing problem is largely based on progamers getting not enough money from their teams.
This is a self made problem and if Kespa really cares so much about it, maybe they should try to change that aspect.
1. Progamers with the highest profile who make more than enough money (more money than their peers in respective high positions the same age range who have higher levels of education) get the same matchfixing requests. And some (see BW matchfixing) of those high profile players still choose to matchfix even though their incomes were considerably stable. It's not always the B-teamers and the teams that don't have money that matchfix.
2. There's only money for matchfixing if there is enough money focused around a certain sport, the incentive for people to matchfix revolves around there being enough "normal" unsuspecting betters who are willing to put down money for the scammers and matchfixers to exploit. It's not enough to establish a causal relationship but it's definitely a case for incidental relationships just based on simple economic relationships that unless there was already money surrounding a sport there would be no incentive for matchfixing to occur.
Besides, if Kespa enforced some kind of player - team contract mandate, especially ones related to salary, half of this forum would be up in arms saying how Kespa is the evil galactic overlord trying to weed the competition where only the richest corporate sponsors can buy teams any ways.
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Kespa is not very concerned with freedom of speech or "innocent until proven guilty".
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141 Posts
On October 21 2015 10:18 Doodsmack wrote:
Kespa is not very concerned with freedom of speech or "innocent until proven guilty".
same can be said for Afreeca, especially based on their past and current operation.
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It's kinda funny how people request from Kespa not to send requests to afreeca...
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1. I am not saying that there will never be greedy people who would still be part of matchfixing even if they have enough money. But having A LOT of players who make literally nothing unless they are part of the elite, well then you practically add to the problem yourself.
2. Yeah sure, that doesn't mean that this money is distributed fairly though.
I am not saying that this step would destroy any matchfixing though, there is much more to it then salary for players, i am just saying it certainly would help though.
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AfreecaTV should ban match-fixers playing in GSL only. Streaming, I believe, is a different issue.
Streaming has nothing to do with pro-scene and as long as governments and blizzard is unwilling, KesPA should stay in their domain. They are a private enterprise, not a government. The have no right to make people's lives more miserable outside of their jurisdiction.
Plus if you don't want match-fixers ruin the scene and come back and make money off the game, then don't watch it. But if people still want to watch them play, then they have all the right to.
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On October 21 2015 09:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:
And even if you wanna say this is already supporting them, so what? If someone fixed a match he shouldn't be allowed to stream gameplay anymore? Why?
People really have weird point of views here imo
I'm saying that the organisation that has the rights to the biggest tournament in SC2, the GSL, for next year shouldn't be associating itself openly with matchfixers and giving them a platform.
And I agree. I cannot see how anyone can possibly think this is an acceptable thing for Afreeca to do. Its a very strange perspective.
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On October 21 2015 09:41 The_Red_Viper wrote:
No they are not progamers, they are streamers and if people want to watch that (and give money to that) then they can.
Streaming is ONLY entertainment, this isn't competetive gaming.
Blame (if you want) the people who watch these guys then, no matchfixer would get any money from streaming if there wasn't demand to watch it.
The matchfixing problem is largely based on progamers getting not enough money from their teams.
This is a self made problem and if Kespa really cares so much about it, maybe they should try to change that aspect.
The streaming service in question also runs the GSL. Do you not see this. It'd be like the Olympics organisation allowing athelets who fixed matches to continue to be featured in Olympics publicity and sponsorship deals.
It makes no sense.
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On October 21 2015 10:26 The_Red_Viper wrote:
1. I am not saying that there will never be greedy people who would still be part of matchfixing even if they have enough money. But having A LOT of players who make literally nothing unless they are part of the elite, well then you practically add to the problem yourself.
2. Yeah sure, that doesn't mean that this money is distributed fairly though.
I am not saying that this step would destroy any matchfixing though, there is much more to it then salary for players, i am just saying it certainly would help though.
Some of the highest paying professional sports leagues are the most corrupt. You are not taking into account the fact that as you ramp up player income you are also ramping up the financial incentive to be engaged in unprofessional and unsportsmanlike behavior. There's a reasonable range where players aren't starving and can afford a decent lifestyle, top tier professional SC2 players already hit that range. Ramping it up more might make the problem even worse. If anything you should be campaigning for more Korean Telecom tier sponsors, not anything Kespa can enforce.
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On October 21 2015 09:41 The_Red_Viper wrote:
No they are not progamers, they are streamers and if people want to watch that (and give money to that) then they can.
Streaming is ONLY entertainment, this isn't competetive gaming.
Blame (if you want) the people who watch these guys then, no matchfixer would get any money from streaming if there wasn't demand to watch it.
The matchfixing problem is largely based on progamers getting not enough money from their teams.
This is a self made problem and if Kespa really cares so much about it, maybe they should try to change that aspect.
progaming literally means professional gamer, as in anyone who makes money from gaming. thats what the term progamer means. the public has only come to associate the word progamer with really high skill because really high skill is what it takes for you to make money off the game.
progamers not getting enough money from their teams is not the teams' problem. the progamers enter into a contract WILLINGLY knowing that they will be paid x amount. if the teams agreed to a salary and then didnt pay this would be another issue, but this isnt the case. the progamers WILLINGLY chose this career path despite there being little income because of their love for the game. if they stray from this path then they are at fault 100%, no one is to blame but themselves. i cannot see how people are dumb enough to think the progaming industry is some slave labour force.
On October 21 2015 10:54 swissman777 wrote:
AfreecaTV should ban match-fixers playing in GSL only. Streaming, I believe, is a different issue.
Streaming has nothing to do with pro-scene and as long as governments and blizzard is unwilling, KesPA should stay in their domain. They are a private enterprise, not a government. The have no right to make people's lives more miserable outside of their jurisdiction.
Plus if you don't want match-fixers ruin the scene and come back and make money off the game, then don't watch it. But if people still want to watch them play, then they have all the right to.
kespa isnt a private enterprise wtf? its under a government organisation.
streaming has nothing to do with the pro scene? well go back and read what i said in the previous page because match fixers' streams have a constant negative impact on the pro scene.
and whos lives are being made more miserable due to kespas actions?
the match fixers? well frankly they dont deserve to make money from gaming after the damage they do to the industry and its players
the fans? fans who wish to watch streams of match fixers despite everything are selfish and ignorant
the pros who are playing legit? these players' lives become more miserable with each passing day that kespa takes no action because their careers are being endangered by a weakened industry and the people responsible for it continue to make more money than they do by streaming like nothing ever happened.
god i wish people would stop being so ignorant and educate themselves about the damn industry. the whole esports industry isnt just here to please fans. the professionals arent circus clowns here to entertain fans only.
huge sums of money are injected into the industry in order to try and make esports sustainable, mainly from sponsorship deals. if matchfixing continuously plagues the industry, one by one sponsors will pull out just like it happened with brood war, and then there are no teams or players because theres no money for tournaments and leagues. players' and coaches' careers end just like that and the only ones left who could possibly survive in esports are the casters, by switching games.
matchfixing has a massive ripple effect on the industry every time it happens, regardless of how weak or severe the punishments to the players are. so the best way to prevent it is to remove incentive for players to do it. the best way to do this is to let players know that if they are caught match fixing any source of income from gaming related activities will be cut off for them, which is huge to these people because they are fucking unqualified for practically every other job out there, unless they want to clean cars or sell mcdonalds for the rest of their lives
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Bisutopia19240 Posts
How come KESPA hasn't requested Blizzard ban them from the game? That'd eliminate them from everything all together. Just a thought.
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well if they paid for the game i doubt even blizzard would go as far as stopping them from playing it.
they could block the streams though, which is probably the next step for kespa if they want to go further
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i cannot see how people are dumb enough to think the progaming industry is some slave labour force.
Because it is close enough to it. "hey people choose this path WILLINGLY, therefore it is ok to exploit them"
Ok i guess
edit: Ok let's say savior wants to stream mokbangs on afreeca, that would be ok then? Ridiculous pov
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On October 21 2015 20:27 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote + i cannot see how people are dumb enough to think the progaming industry is some slave labour force. Because it is close enough to it. "hey people choose this path WILLINGLY, therefore it is ok to exploit them" Ok i guess edit: Ok let's say savior wants to stream mokbangs on afreeca, that would be ok then? Ridiculous pov
If savior wants to eat on stream yeah that would be ok. Because at least it would be unrelated to Starcraft.
Do you realize that Afreeca is hosting Starcraft events? If you were a sponsor, what would you think of a company and unfortunately undirectly of the whole scene if a tournament host allowed players who had criminal records related to your activity to earn money through their own service? Would you ever want to be associated with them?
It is not a matter of freedom, right, punishment or vengeance. It is a matter of ethics and being credible. Afreeca is hurting everybody's credibility by doing that. And I'm not even counting the obvious issue of conflict of interest.
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On October 21 2015 11:44 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 09:41 The_Red_Viper wrote:
No they are not progamers, they are streamers and if people want to watch that (and give money to that) then they can.
Streaming is ONLY entertainment, this isn't competetive gaming.
Blame (if you want) the people who watch these guys then, no matchfixer would get any money from streaming if there wasn't demand to watch it.
The matchfixing problem is largely based on progamers getting not enough money from their teams.
This is a self made problem and if Kespa really cares so much about it, maybe they should try to change that aspect.
The streaming service in question also runs the GSL. Do you not see this. It'd be like the Olympics organisation allowing athelets who fixed matches to continue to be featured in Olympics publicity and sponsorship deals. It makes no sense.
Yeah because the IOC does not allow all olympic dopers after a rather short period of "cooldown" to play in the Olympics....
Oh they do! Thats... rather how it works. And they even do that in South Korea? Park Tae-Hwan anyone?
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141 Posts
On October 21 2015 22:19 Clonester wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 11:44 levelping wrote:On October 21 2015 09:41 The_Red_Viper wrote:
No they are not progamers, they are streamers and if people want to watch that (and give money to that) then they can.
Streaming is ONLY entertainment, this isn't competetive gaming.
Blame (if you want) the people who watch these guys then, no matchfixer would get any money from streaming if there wasn't demand to watch it.
The matchfixing problem is largely based on progamers getting not enough money from their teams.
This is a self made problem and if Kespa really cares so much about it, maybe they should try to change that aspect.
The streaming service in question also runs the GSL. Do you not see this. It'd be like the Olympics organisation allowing athelets who fixed matches to continue to be featured in Olympics publicity and sponsorship deals. It makes no sense. Yeah because the IOC does not allow all olympic dopers after a rather short period of "cooldown" to play in the Olympics.... Oh they do! Thats... rather how it works. And they even do that in South Korea? Park Tae-Hwan anyone?
Cause doping has the same consequences as organized match-fixing?
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On October 21 2015 22:25 r_gg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 22:19 Clonester wrote:On October 21 2015 11:44 levelping wrote:On October 21 2015 09:41 The_Red_Viper wrote:
No they are not progamers, they are streamers and if people want to watch that (and give money to that) then they can.
Streaming is ONLY entertainment, this isn't competetive gaming.
Blame (if you want) the people who watch these guys then, no matchfixer would get any money from streaming if there wasn't demand to watch it.
The matchfixing problem is largely based on progamers getting not enough money from their teams.
This is a self made problem and if Kespa really cares so much about it, maybe they should try to change that aspect.
The streaming service in question also runs the GSL. Do you not see this. It'd be like the Olympics organisation allowing athelets who fixed matches to continue to be featured in Olympics publicity and sponsorship deals. It makes no sense. Yeah because the IOC does not allow all olympic dopers after a rather short period of "cooldown" to play in the Olympics.... Oh they do! Thats... rather how it works. And they even do that in South Korea? Park Tae-Hwan anyone? Cause doping has the same consequences as organized match-fixing?
it does not? The one thing makes people losing to gain money from people who do somethign illegal (betting is totally illegal in korea), the other one gains money by taking winnings with a unfair advantage over fair competiting people... so yes. Doping has worse consequences.
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On October 21 2015 22:19 Clonester wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 11:44 levelping wrote:On October 21 2015 09:41 The_Red_Viper wrote:
No they are not progamers, they are streamers and if people want to watch that (and give money to that) then they can.
Streaming is ONLY entertainment, this isn't competetive gaming.
Blame (if you want) the people who watch these guys then, no matchfixer would get any money from streaming if there wasn't demand to watch it.
The matchfixing problem is largely based on progamers getting not enough money from their teams.
This is a self made problem and if Kespa really cares so much about it, maybe they should try to change that aspect.
The streaming service in question also runs the GSL. Do you not see this. It'd be like the Olympics organisation allowing athelets who fixed matches to continue to be featured in Olympics publicity and sponsorship deals. It makes no sense. Yeah because the IOC does not allow all olympic dopers after a rather short period of "cooldown" to play in the Olympics.... Oh they do! Thats... rather how it works. And they even do that in South Korea? Park Tae-Hwan anyone?
IOC, Fifa and other traditionnal sport organizations/companies acting like mafia organizations is not a valid reason to justify doing the same here.
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141 Posts
On October 21 2015 22:43 Clonester wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 22:25 r_gg wrote:On October 21 2015 22:19 Clonester wrote:On October 21 2015 11:44 levelping wrote:On October 21 2015 09:41 The_Red_Viper wrote:
No they are not progamers, they are streamers and if people want to watch that (and give money to that) then they can.
Streaming is ONLY entertainment, this isn't competetive gaming.
Blame (if you want) the people who watch these guys then, no matchfixer would get any money from streaming if there wasn't demand to watch it.
The matchfixing problem is largely based on progamers getting not enough money from their teams.
This is a self made problem and if Kespa really cares so much about it, maybe they should try to change that aspect.
The streaming service in question also runs the GSL. Do you not see this. It'd be like the Olympics organisation allowing athelets who fixed matches to continue to be featured in Olympics publicity and sponsorship deals. It makes no sense. Yeah because the IOC does not allow all olympic dopers after a rather short period of "cooldown" to play in the Olympics.... Oh they do! Thats... rather how it works. And they even do that in South Korea? Park Tae-Hwan anyone? Cause doping has the same consequences as organized match-fixing? it does not? The one thing makes people losing to gain money from people who do somethign illegal (betting is totally illegal in korea), the other one gains money by taking winnings with a unfair advantage over fair competiting people... so yes. Doping has worse consequences.
Doping is a problem that violates the rules within a game and taint the spirit of the competition, but it has little to no consequences outside the scene itself. Match-fixing is something that is a clear violation of the law. This is why police is involved in the investigation. Betting activities themselves aren't illegal. There's plenty of legal sports-betting in Korea in the form of Toto lotteries.
Doping and cheating incidents are something that's contained within the bounds of the organization, and it is treated as an isolated incident of unsportsmanlike conduct. Match-fixing on the other hand involves an outside organization (gambling sector) and it has direct impact on the public perception of the industry.
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On October 21 2015 02:29 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 00:05 ShambhalaWar wrote:On October 20 2015 23:14 ybjoony wrote:I think what many people are missing is that Kespa isn't breaking any law - they can't enforce anything outside their org, true, and they are asking for cooperation. Seeing that Afreeca said no, it is entirely up to them if they want to appeal to blizzard or try and create public uproar, or threaten to withdraw their players from GSL if afreeca doesn't comply. They are not breaking any laws by doing that.
And I fully support Kespa for this move, both to discourage more players from being involved in match fixing and to punish those who participated. The very definition of being "PRO" is "paid to participate in a sport or activity" according to merriam and webster dictionary. According to that, those afreeca streamers are pros in their own right, and I don't think those who have been proven to be not deserving of the name "pro" to be in the industry anymore. Also, as far as I know, many korean esports fans despise them too(well, most people in sc and sc2 gallery in dcinside, pgr, inven and fomos, most prominent of korean esports websites) and don't want to see those matchfixers from earning any income from sports they defiled.
About the scale of the ban, I am okay with them as long as they don't gain any income from playing eSports; I am okay with them playing with their friends, okay even with them streaming as long as they don't get any money - which is not the case on Afreeca streamers.
There are also precedence in other sports match fixing in korea where people who matchfixed are banned in other related organizations too- Park hyun-jun, a baseball player banned for matchfixing in 2012 couldn't get to other leagues such as MLB, NPB or CPBL(taiwan league), and was working in his father's pub until recently, when he went to Dominica to play baseball - apparently they don't have agreements with KBO - but nothing stops them from asking dominicans to ban him(although it is up to them whether to accept or not)
Choi-sung kuk, biggest name on soccer match fixing, is working in a hospital(cashier, I think) now because he couldn't get to any other leagues that are registered in FIFA(I saw an article that he was trying to go to marcedonian league, but couldn't because KFA appealed to FIFA to block).
So, conclusion?
1. It is entirely within Kespa's rights to ask for bans from other organizations, and use whatever tools in their shed to let their will known.
2. If it goes to public opinion in Korea, it is most likely that kespa's stance will be supported.
3. There is precedence of other known matchfixers who are effectively blocked from playing for money in the industry Being banned in other leagues of professional play for that particular sport is understandable because they are associate with the sport he cheated in, and competing in sports is the same as being a pro-gamer. It is an electronic sport that a programer competes in. However, being a "streamer" isn't the same as a being a pro-gamer. MC isn't a pro-gamer anymore, he is considered a "professional streamer." While he streams starcraft content nobody considers him a pro-gamer anymore, he is retired. If I make youtube videos and the content is me playing sc2 against other people, that makes me a youtuber and no youtuber is considered a professional gamer (unless they play in professional competition). I don't think people should be banned from being professional streamers because they cheated at a sport. sport |spôrt| noun 1 an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment: team sports such as baseball and soccer | (as modifier sports) : a sports center. An E-sport. An "professional e-sport" is a game both team play in competition for money, which leaves a slightly blurred line. If you play sc2 on stream, you will most likely be competing against others on ladder. However, nobody you compete against will be earning any money from the competition (unless they are streaming, and then the money is ONLY for their stream content and not for the "competition"). You as the streamer might also earn no money because the vast majority of people that stream on twitch don't get ANY money. My guess is you would also be fine with him streaming other games like mariokart, but you don't want him streaming sc2? If he is banned from streaming, they are banning his rights to do any form of streaming, which isn't professional exports. To me this feels more like kespa saying, "Oh you really like the noodles at the stir fry place on the corner, well funny cause I know the owner and guess what your not welcome there." How would you feel if kespa petitioned blizzard to ban his ip from any form of play? I still think a streamer is a streamer and a programer is a programer. Nobody calls a streamer a programer, unless they actually are in active competition and even then, they aren't "competing" on stream. Pro-gamers stream their practice or a lesson, not competition (Showmatch or Tourny is always put on by someone other than that streamer). Imo an action like this doesn't prevent or deter anyone from match-fixing, it just strips more personal rights. Also, isn't jail and a lifetime ban enough punishment for fixing 4 or 1 match? Most or all professional athletes that took steroids didn't even go to jail, and they built entire careers off it, like lance armstrong. How much money did he make based off manipulation? Millions more than anyone in this petty scandal, and never went to jail and kept it all. What its about is a player cheating and breaking rules that are very serious within a sport. I don't know how it works in regular sports because I don't follow it. But Kespa wants to take away the matchficers opportunity to earn money on SC2 at all. In my world this is similar to for example is a baseball player that got banned for life tried to become a coach or a trainer, I'm pretty sure that would not be allowed. Even though "that would not make them a progamer" but just a coach or a trainer. Someone that knows toher sports are welcome to chime in but in my mind this is not all-bad. I can see both sides. The other part of the coin is that streaming is breaking copyright to be frawnk with you, no one is actually allowed to show video of gameplay due to the right to do tha tlies with the company that has the rights to the game. The only ones that uses(abuses) this though is nintendo they ban any video on youtube for example that doesn't pay them money. It is is their right. So if Blizz don't want them to stream Sc2 its pretty damn easy for them to stop them from doing that if we look at it from a law perspective. So basically all the arguements you are using are flawed.
My point is that cheating in a physical sport really isn't much different than match-fixing. If I build a baseball career on cheating, I manipulate the outcome of a game for financial gain. These things happen in other sports such as baseball and the punishment is less in many cases, at least as far as I know.
Lance Armstrong is a perfect example, he had all his titles stripped and was banned for more than just the one sport (cycling) which he was involved in. He didn't go to jail and I believe he got sue by some people for money.
What if Lance decided to give personal cycling lessons to people, should the world try to ban him from that?
Imo no, the man still knows a lot about cycling and people could actually benefit from his knowledge. Also, I believe in second, third, maybe even fourth chances. People are people, all of us fail miserably at many different things in life, there are no saints... and if there are its because they failed and atoned for their failures.
At what point does it become just going after someone for blood/vengeance?
It's also an interesting point you bring up about copyright, I didn't know that, but it makes sense that if you were making money off their product some kind of infringement might exist, idk. Clearly even if that is the case, a different reality exists in the face of these laws as site likes twitch and afreeca exist and flourish. If this was ever a real thing the hosting sites would have been sued into oblivion years ago. Instead the companies that created the games pump massive amounts of money into these sites supporting the claimed copyright infringement. Saying this invalidates all my points is a massive stretch.
I say let Armstrong teach cycling (maybe he already is), he would probably be a great teacher.
Kespa operates an esports association, that is their domain. Let them ban these people from their domain, strip any titles aquired within the domain, but reaching out into other domains or pressuring them to follow suit is an overextension imo.
Of course they can do it, so let them try, but I don't agree with it.
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