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141 Posts
On October 22 2015 10:11 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 02:29 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 21 2015 00:05 ShambhalaWar wrote:On October 20 2015 23:14 ybjoony wrote:I think what many people are missing is that Kespa isn't breaking any law - they can't enforce anything outside their org, true, and they are asking for cooperation. Seeing that Afreeca said no, it is entirely up to them if they want to appeal to blizzard or try and create public uproar, or threaten to withdraw their players from GSL if afreeca doesn't comply. They are not breaking any laws by doing that.
And I fully support Kespa for this move, both to discourage more players from being involved in match fixing and to punish those who participated. The very definition of being "PRO" is "paid to participate in a sport or activity" according to merriam and webster dictionary. According to that, those afreeca streamers are pros in their own right, and I don't think those who have been proven to be not deserving of the name "pro" to be in the industry anymore. Also, as far as I know, many korean esports fans despise them too(well, most people in sc and sc2 gallery in dcinside, pgr, inven and fomos, most prominent of korean esports websites) and don't want to see those matchfixers from earning any income from sports they defiled.
About the scale of the ban, I am okay with them as long as they don't gain any income from playing eSports; I am okay with them playing with their friends, okay even with them streaming as long as they don't get any money - which is not the case on Afreeca streamers.
There are also precedence in other sports match fixing in korea where people who matchfixed are banned in other related organizations too- Park hyun-jun, a baseball player banned for matchfixing in 2012 couldn't get to other leagues such as MLB, NPB or CPBL(taiwan league), and was working in his father's pub until recently, when he went to Dominica to play baseball - apparently they don't have agreements with KBO - but nothing stops them from asking dominicans to ban him(although it is up to them whether to accept or not)
Choi-sung kuk, biggest name on soccer match fixing, is working in a hospital(cashier, I think) now because he couldn't get to any other leagues that are registered in FIFA(I saw an article that he was trying to go to marcedonian league, but couldn't because KFA appealed to FIFA to block).
So, conclusion?
1. It is entirely within Kespa's rights to ask for bans from other organizations, and use whatever tools in their shed to let their will known.
2. If it goes to public opinion in Korea, it is most likely that kespa's stance will be supported.
3. There is precedence of other known matchfixers who are effectively blocked from playing for money in the industry Being banned in other leagues of professional play for that particular sport is understandable because they are associate with the sport he cheated in, and competing in sports is the same as being a pro-gamer. It is an electronic sport that a programer competes in. However, being a "streamer" isn't the same as a being a pro-gamer. MC isn't a pro-gamer anymore, he is considered a "professional streamer." While he streams starcraft content nobody considers him a pro-gamer anymore, he is retired. If I make youtube videos and the content is me playing sc2 against other people, that makes me a youtuber and no youtuber is considered a professional gamer (unless they play in professional competition). I don't think people should be banned from being professional streamers because they cheated at a sport. sport |spôrt| noun 1 an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment: team sports such as baseball and soccer | (as modifier sports) : a sports center. An E-sport. An "professional e-sport" is a game both team play in competition for money, which leaves a slightly blurred line. If you play sc2 on stream, you will most likely be competing against others on ladder. However, nobody you compete against will be earning any money from the competition (unless they are streaming, and then the money is ONLY for their stream content and not for the "competition"). You as the streamer might also earn no money because the vast majority of people that stream on twitch don't get ANY money. My guess is you would also be fine with him streaming other games like mariokart, but you don't want him streaming sc2? If he is banned from streaming, they are banning his rights to do any form of streaming, which isn't professional exports. To me this feels more like kespa saying, "Oh you really like the noodles at the stir fry place on the corner, well funny cause I know the owner and guess what your not welcome there." How would you feel if kespa petitioned blizzard to ban his ip from any form of play? I still think a streamer is a streamer and a programer is a programer. Nobody calls a streamer a programer, unless they actually are in active competition and even then, they aren't "competing" on stream. Pro-gamers stream their practice or a lesson, not competition (Showmatch or Tourny is always put on by someone other than that streamer). Imo an action like this doesn't prevent or deter anyone from match-fixing, it just strips more personal rights. Also, isn't jail and a lifetime ban enough punishment for fixing 4 or 1 match? Most or all professional athletes that took steroids didn't even go to jail, and they built entire careers off it, like lance armstrong. How much money did he make based off manipulation? Millions more than anyone in this petty scandal, and never went to jail and kept it all. What its about is a player cheating and breaking rules that are very serious within a sport. I don't know how it works in regular sports because I don't follow it. But Kespa wants to take away the matchficers opportunity to earn money on SC2 at all. In my world this is similar to for example is a baseball player that got banned for life tried to become a coach or a trainer, I'm pretty sure that would not be allowed. Even though "that would not make them a progamer" but just a coach or a trainer. Someone that knows toher sports are welcome to chime in but in my mind this is not all-bad. I can see both sides. The other part of the coin is that streaming is breaking copyright to be frawnk with you, no one is actually allowed to show video of gameplay due to the right to do tha tlies with the company that has the rights to the game. The only ones that uses(abuses) this though is nintendo they ban any video on youtube for example that doesn't pay them money. It is is their right. So if Blizz don't want them to stream Sc2 its pretty damn easy for them to stop them from doing that if we look at it from a law perspective. So basically all the arguements you are using are flawed. My point is that cheating in a physical sport really isn't much different than match-fixing. If I build a baseball career on cheating, I manipulate the outcome of a game for financial gain. These things happen in other sports such as baseball and the punishment is less in many cases, at least as far as I know.
No cheating and matchfixing are two very different things. One is a federal crime, other is not. Match-fixing is treated with much severe penalty compared to mere cheating. Here is an example from baseball:
Chicago Black Sox Scandal from wikipedia:
The Black Sox Scandal took place during the play of the 1919 World Series. The Chicago White Sox lost the series to the Cincinnati Reds, and eight White Sox players were later accused of intentionally losing games in exchange for money from gamblers. The players were acquitted in court, but nevertheless, they were all banned for life from baseball.
....
After being banned, Risberg and several other members of the Black Sox tried to organize a three-state barnstorming tour. However, they were forced to cancel those plans after Landis let it be known that anyone who played with or against them would also be banned from baseball for life. They then announced plans to play a regular exhibition game every Sunday in Chicago, but the Chicago City Council threatened to cancel the license of any ballpark that hosted them.[5]
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On October 22 2015 10:16 r_gg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2015 10:11 ShambhalaWar wrote:On October 21 2015 02:29 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 21 2015 00:05 ShambhalaWar wrote:On October 20 2015 23:14 ybjoony wrote:I think what many people are missing is that Kespa isn't breaking any law - they can't enforce anything outside their org, true, and they are asking for cooperation. Seeing that Afreeca said no, it is entirely up to them if they want to appeal to blizzard or try and create public uproar, or threaten to withdraw their players from GSL if afreeca doesn't comply. They are not breaking any laws by doing that.
And I fully support Kespa for this move, both to discourage more players from being involved in match fixing and to punish those who participated. The very definition of being "PRO" is "paid to participate in a sport or activity" according to merriam and webster dictionary. According to that, those afreeca streamers are pros in their own right, and I don't think those who have been proven to be not deserving of the name "pro" to be in the industry anymore. Also, as far as I know, many korean esports fans despise them too(well, most people in sc and sc2 gallery in dcinside, pgr, inven and fomos, most prominent of korean esports websites) and don't want to see those matchfixers from earning any income from sports they defiled.
About the scale of the ban, I am okay with them as long as they don't gain any income from playing eSports; I am okay with them playing with their friends, okay even with them streaming as long as they don't get any money - which is not the case on Afreeca streamers.
There are also precedence in other sports match fixing in korea where people who matchfixed are banned in other related organizations too- Park hyun-jun, a baseball player banned for matchfixing in 2012 couldn't get to other leagues such as MLB, NPB or CPBL(taiwan league), and was working in his father's pub until recently, when he went to Dominica to play baseball - apparently they don't have agreements with KBO - but nothing stops them from asking dominicans to ban him(although it is up to them whether to accept or not)
Choi-sung kuk, biggest name on soccer match fixing, is working in a hospital(cashier, I think) now because he couldn't get to any other leagues that are registered in FIFA(I saw an article that he was trying to go to marcedonian league, but couldn't because KFA appealed to FIFA to block).
So, conclusion?
1. It is entirely within Kespa's rights to ask for bans from other organizations, and use whatever tools in their shed to let their will known.
2. If it goes to public opinion in Korea, it is most likely that kespa's stance will be supported.
3. There is precedence of other known matchfixers who are effectively blocked from playing for money in the industry Being banned in other leagues of professional play for that particular sport is understandable because they are associate with the sport he cheated in, and competing in sports is the same as being a pro-gamer. It is an electronic sport that a programer competes in. However, being a "streamer" isn't the same as a being a pro-gamer. MC isn't a pro-gamer anymore, he is considered a "professional streamer." While he streams starcraft content nobody considers him a pro-gamer anymore, he is retired. If I make youtube videos and the content is me playing sc2 against other people, that makes me a youtuber and no youtuber is considered a professional gamer (unless they play in professional competition). I don't think people should be banned from being professional streamers because they cheated at a sport. sport |spôrt| noun 1 an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment: team sports such as baseball and soccer | (as modifier sports) : a sports center. An E-sport. An "professional e-sport" is a game both team play in competition for money, which leaves a slightly blurred line. If you play sc2 on stream, you will most likely be competing against others on ladder. However, nobody you compete against will be earning any money from the competition (unless they are streaming, and then the money is ONLY for their stream content and not for the "competition"). You as the streamer might also earn no money because the vast majority of people that stream on twitch don't get ANY money. My guess is you would also be fine with him streaming other games like mariokart, but you don't want him streaming sc2? If he is banned from streaming, they are banning his rights to do any form of streaming, which isn't professional exports. To me this feels more like kespa saying, "Oh you really like the noodles at the stir fry place on the corner, well funny cause I know the owner and guess what your not welcome there." How would you feel if kespa petitioned blizzard to ban his ip from any form of play? I still think a streamer is a streamer and a programer is a programer. Nobody calls a streamer a programer, unless they actually are in active competition and even then, they aren't "competing" on stream. Pro-gamers stream their practice or a lesson, not competition (Showmatch or Tourny is always put on by someone other than that streamer). Imo an action like this doesn't prevent or deter anyone from match-fixing, it just strips more personal rights. Also, isn't jail and a lifetime ban enough punishment for fixing 4 or 1 match? Most or all professional athletes that took steroids didn't even go to jail, and they built entire careers off it, like lance armstrong. How much money did he make based off manipulation? Millions more than anyone in this petty scandal, and never went to jail and kept it all. What its about is a player cheating and breaking rules that are very serious within a sport. I don't know how it works in regular sports because I don't follow it. But Kespa wants to take away the matchficers opportunity to earn money on SC2 at all. In my world this is similar to for example is a baseball player that got banned for life tried to become a coach or a trainer, I'm pretty sure that would not be allowed. Even though "that would not make them a progamer" but just a coach or a trainer. Someone that knows toher sports are welcome to chime in but in my mind this is not all-bad. I can see both sides. The other part of the coin is that streaming is breaking copyright to be frawnk with you, no one is actually allowed to show video of gameplay due to the right to do tha tlies with the company that has the rights to the game. The only ones that uses(abuses) this though is nintendo they ban any video on youtube for example that doesn't pay them money. It is is their right. So if Blizz don't want them to stream Sc2 its pretty damn easy for them to stop them from doing that if we look at it from a law perspective. So basically all the arguements you are using are flawed. My point is that cheating in a physical sport really isn't much different than match-fixing. If I build a baseball career on cheating, I manipulate the outcome of a game for financial gain. These things happen in other sports such as baseball and the punishment is less in many cases, at least as far as I know. No cheating and matchfixing are two very different things. One is a federal crime, other is not. Match-fixing is treated with much severe penalty compared to mere cheating. Here is an example from baseball: Chicago Black Sox Scandal from wikipedia: The Black Sox Scandal took place during the play of the 1919 World Series. The Chicago White Sox lost the series to the Cincinnati Reds, and eight White Sox players were later accused of intentionally losing games in exchange for money from gamblers. The players were acquitted in court, but nevertheless, they were all banned for life from baseball. .... After being banned, Risberg and several other members of the Black Sox tried to organize a three-state barnstorming tour. However, they were forced to cancel those plans after Landis let it be known that anyone who played with or against them would also be banned from baseball for life. They then announced plans to play a regular exhibition game every Sunday in Chicago, but the Chicago City Council threatened to cancel the license of any ballpark that hosted them.[5]
Interesting example, I didn't know about that. Sounds like official punishment was a lifetime ban, which I can understand and other organizations added the punishments of denying any play. Of course anyone can attempt to do anything they want and threaten people to scare them into such things. I don't agree with that kind of behavior, but it is their right to bully a ballpark that might host such a team.
I think you are right in that one is federally illegal and one is not, but my point was that past the legal issue these two things are similar in their outcomes. Both circumstances are people manipulating the outcome of a game in their favor for money. I think the discrepancy in punishment for the two things is quite interesting.
None of this changes the fact that it's not illegal to stream games if you've been involved in match fixing. They have the freedom to do that, just like city councils have the freedom to bully ballparks into submission. I just don't agree with the later.
Also reminder headline for everyone in the thread... (unless this changed).
These people were indicted, that means they were charged. It is clear to me that everyone in this thread sees these men as convicted criminals.
So much for innocent until proven guilty.
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Maybe Kespa should ensure that all players competing in their leagues are receiving salaries. Maybe match fixing wouldn't be such a problem if there were more opportunities for players to make money legitimately. Match fixing is simply a symptom of a much larger issue and that is the fact that so few of these "PRO" players are actually receiving what a pro deserves. I imagine it was tough for someone like Yoda to live with a guy like MC. A guy who basically made a killing in prize money and salary while you are making next to nothing. It shouldn't be only the top 10 players who make enough to get by. These young adults are throwing away a good portion of their formative years on something that will be useless to them in a real career. They need to be paid what they deserve or this scene is as good as dead already.
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On October 20 2015 15:04 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 14:40 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:On October 20 2015 14:33 StarStruck wrote:On October 20 2015 12:15 Waxangel wrote:
It's totally enforceable if they get Blizzard to tell Afreeca to kill those streams.
You remember that time like six years ago, when KeSPA tried to argue that broadcast rights belonged to anyone BUT the developer of the game? Remember how that shit ended? Yep :/ I'm all for it. Need to have something enforceable anywhere to try and make people think twice before doing it. So they are forcing young kids to stay in a house whole day playing video games for more than 12 hours in many cases without salary and no promise of getting any reward,they wasted their young there,no studies ,then they turn 22 and see how they have nothing to construct their life and loss one game can gave them 3k.usd.i dont support it but i kind of understand their situation.and it is kespa fault at the end. what the fuck? progaming isnt some slave industry so not sure wtf youre talking about. how you could even think to justify match-fixers' actions by saying they were 'forced' to be a progamer just boggles my mind. progamers are progamers because THEY CHOOSE TO BE. if they fail at it then its their own damn fault; they sucked. kespa has done more than any other organisation on the planet for the sustainability of esports. this includes the care and management of players especially those linked to teams under the kespa organisation. if some guys who chose this path realise later on that theyre too shit to win anything so they take the losers' route and match fix in order to get some quick money, then they deserve everything they get. some people are actually still practicing their asses off to get to a level where they can still win something and the match fixing shit just shoots all those possibilities down.
I don't agree with match fixing and will never approve of match fixing, but some people do the wrong thing being in a desperate situation.
Don't be so quickly to judge someone without knowing the full story from both sides. We're human and nobody is perfect.
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Canada16217 Posts
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United States33072 Posts
It's only KeSPA games. It's not a ban from ALL streaming.
Not surprising considering how much pressure Afreeca were under. They had very little popular support from the fans, and you can speculate that they were under a long of back channel pressure from KeSPA, teams, etc.
http://www.fomos.kr/esports/news_view?entry_id=15657
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Is there a list with all the Kespa-sanctioned games? I recall reading on Wiki that's there's like 30ish games But besides Crossfire, League, and Blizzard games, I'm not sure what would be on such a list.
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On October 22 2015 14:52 Waxangel wrote:It's only KeSPA games. It's not a ban from ALL streaming. Not surprising considering how much pressure Afreeca were under. They had very little popular support from the fans, and you can speculate that they were under a long of back channel pressure from KeSPA, teams, etc. http://www.fomos.kr/esports/news_view?entry_id=15657
No. They reversed it because Afreeca's reputation in Korea is getting EXTREMELY worse - most media and people balming it.
Plus, because of this, Afreeca's share price is going down
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Nice, I don't care about other games, but I really don't think they should have been streaming Starcraft games.
At least there won't be a boycott of GSL now, that would have been super awkward.
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United States33072 Posts
On October 22 2015 15:05 Thouhastmail wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2015 14:52 Waxangel wrote:It's only KeSPA games. It's not a ban from ALL streaming. Not surprising considering how much pressure Afreeca were under. They had very little popular support from the fans, and you can speculate that they were under a long of back channel pressure from KeSPA, teams, etc. http://www.fomos.kr/esports/news_view?entry_id=15657 No.
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i feel a little bad for hwasin, but i think same time matchfixer is forced to move on with their life
fuck savior though
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EPT
