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http://e-sports.or.kr/board_kespa2014.php?b_no=6&_module=data&_page=view&b_no=6&b_pid=9999571300
KeSPA requested additional investigation for attempted manipulation, which are not accomplished, in order to eradicate any kind of match-fixing corruption.
Plus, as mentioned above, KeSPA also requested all streaming formats to ban match-fixers` stream officially.
edit: Afreeca truned it down.
http://game.xportsnews.com/?ac=article_view&entry_id=648697
불법도박 및 승부조작 관련자의 개인방송 송출 중단 요구
협회는 아프리카TV 등 개인방송을 송출하는 인터넷 플랫폼 사업자들에게 ‘불법도박 및 승부조작 관련자의 개인방송 송출을 중단’해 줄 것을 공식적으로 요청합니다. 그 동안 비공개적인 논의가 일부 있었으나, 이번 사태를 기점으로 플랫폼 사업자들에게 공식적인 공문을 발송할 것입니다.
공개적으로 간곡하게 요청합니다. 과거, 현재를 떠나서 불법도박 및 승부조작에 관계 되었던 모든 인사들의 개인방송 송출을 중단해 주십시오. 플랫폼 사업자들 역시 다양한 e스포츠 콘텐츠를 서비스하고 있습니다. 플랫폼 사업자들의 사회적 책임을 방기하지 마십시오.
협회는 향후 종목 IP권자인 게임개발사와 공조체제를 확대함으로써, 플랫폼 사업자들이 불법도박 및 승부조작 관련자들의 개인방송을 송출하는 것을 더 이상 방관하지 않겠습니다.
Afreeca TV responds;
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51133 Posts
Seems like they want to get rid of players such as Hwasin and recently go.go who've propped up on Afreeca recently. To be honest I think this is pretty unfair of a demand - Afreeca have no relationship with KeSPA whatsoever and it infringes on their rights as people.
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On October 20 2015 11:33 GTR wrote: Seems like they want to get rid of players such as Hwasin and recently go.go who've propped up on Afreeca recently. To be honest I think this is pretty unfair of a demand - Afreeca have no relationship with KeSPA whatsoever and it infringes on their rights as people.
Afreeca has relationship with Kesapa aka GSL. Additionally, the article says kespa will cooperate with the game companies who have the IP. (Prolly Blizzard, maybe riot and the others too.)
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So they will also ban ex-BW matchfixers (i.e. Savior) ?
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been a long time coming. They can do whatever they want but they shouldn't stream starcraft. This isn't their playground. They can't matchfix and ruin a whole scene and come back trying to make money off of it. Just how gullible do they think the community is?
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On October 20 2015 11:40 Apoteosis wrote: So they will also ban ex-BW matchfixers (i.e. Savior) ?
dunno if Afreeca will take it. To your question, yes. "any people who are related" According to KeSPA.
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i wouldnt mind them streaming but I wouldnt even bat an eye if they ban them
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This is taking it a bit far.
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United States32484 Posts
It's totally enforceable if they get Blizzard to tell Afreeca to kill those streams.
You remember that time like six years ago, when KeSPA tried to argue that broadcast rights belonged to anyone BUT the developer of the game? Remember how that shit ended?
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lol wow kespa is pretty hardcore about this, i thought a perm ban from pro gaming would be enough..
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On October 20 2015 12:15 castleeMg wrote: lol wow kespa is pretty hardcore about this, i thought a perm ban from pro gaming would be enough..
Na, Kespa will use all the social capital they have to make their lives miserable.
I remember Kespa tried to implore Blizzard a few years back to make certain Chinese BW organizers ban Savior since Savior was apparently competing or doing some activity in China.
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Japan11285 Posts
sAviOr hasn't streamed since August and pls no, don't ban HwaSin. Streaming is not professional gaming.
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On October 20 2015 12:40 c3rberUs wrote: sAviOr hasn't streamed since August and pls no, don't ban HwaSin. Streaming is not professional gaming. It's playing a game at set times for money. In Hearthstone, Kripparian might not be a competitive player, but that game is his profession. When you undermine the integrity of the game in any form, that game cannot be your livelihood. Twitch, Afreeca, et al. are being given a request by Kespa. They, as private organizations, are well within their right to decline, as I understand it (if it's a mandate, they can dispute it if they want). I find nothing unreasonable going on here.
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This is stupid commie shit. Why don't they get their own house in order before worrying about their neighbours?
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Based on conversations I had with Afreeca months ago, I do not think they will abide by this request.
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On October 20 2015 12:51 Wolf wrote: Based on conversations I had with Afreeca months ago, I do not think they will abide by this request. And they are well within their rights to do so. This isn't the story people seem to want to make it out to be.
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Ooooh... KeSpa went into the toolbox and got out their biggest hammer... Then started swinging at everything in sight...
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United States11390 Posts
On October 20 2015 12:40 c3rberUs wrote: sAviOr hasn't streamed since August and pls no, don't ban HwaSin. Streaming is not professional gaming. Seems like he deleted his afreeca account a while back.
http://afreeca.com/mjy1123
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Japan11285 Posts
On October 20 2015 12:50 Circumstance wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 12:40 c3rberUs wrote: sAviOr hasn't streamed since August and pls no, don't ban HwaSin. Streaming is not professional gaming. It's playing a game at set times for money. In Hearthstone, Kripparian might not be a competitive player, but that game is his profession. When you undermine the integrity of the game in any form, that game cannot be your livelihood. Twitch, Afreeca, et al. are being given a request by Kespa. They, as private organizations, are well within their right to decline, as I understand it (if it's a mandate, they can dispute it if they want). I find nothing unreasonable going on here. There's a reason why these guys are called ex-pros (전 프로). They're no longer paid to play the game. These guys are not being paid regular salaries, they rely on donations from their fans/viewers whether they were matchfixers or not.
@Harem. Didn't know that haha
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I completely disagree with this.
What does streaming video games have to do with match-fixing?
How will banning someone from streaming in ANY WAY prevent future match-fixing?
It won't.
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United States32484 Posts
On October 20 2015 12:51 Wolf wrote: Based on conversations I had with Afreeca months ago, I do not think they will abide by this request.
They don't have to listen to KeSPA. but the statement says they'll work with the game publisher to enforce this.
Basically everyone in the industry acknowledges that game publishers own all the video/streaming rights to their games. KeSPA tried to fight Blizzard on this for years behind closed doors and lost. If Blizzard gets involved, do you think Afreeca wants to get into a legal confrontation over a handful of small-time streamers?
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Poland3743 Posts
On October 20 2015 12:50 Circumstance wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 12:40 c3rberUs wrote: sAviOr hasn't streamed since August and pls no, don't ban HwaSin. Streaming is not professional gaming. It's playing a game at set times for money. In Hearthstone, Kripparian might not be a competitive player, but that game is his profession. When you undermine the integrity of the game in any form, that game cannot be your livelihood. Twitch, Afreeca, et al. are being given a request by Kespa. They, as private organizations, are well within their right to decline, as I understand it (if it's a mandate, they can dispute it if they want). I find nothing unreasonable going on here. I can't imagine anyone would try to enforce ban on Lance Armstrong for making a show about cycling online or on TV if it wasn't part of UCI. Sure, they would protest but I would not see ban incoming.
This is going too far imho.
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Here KeSPA goes again. In a way I support this request but I feel they're going too far with it. What if I'm a full time streamer like MC? I'm not a competitive progamer anymore. Just a pro streamer who streams when I'm not busy with real life. If you still want to watch me stream and you enjoy it, nothing wrong with that. I think.
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well match fixing does a lot of damage to the industry, and although the match fixers get a ban, the ones left to try and make a living for themselves in an industry that is losing money due to these scandals are left disadvantaged for no reason. its unfair on the professionals who actually played by the rules to have their jobs put in danger suddenly. its also unfair that the match fixers then get to stream on afreeca and make the same amount of money they made when they played professionally, despite all the damage theyve done to the industry and its people. how will banning someone from streaming prevent future match fixing? well at the very least you make it clear to any future match fixers that if they get caught there is no future for them in gaming. some people who match fix probably think that they have a safety net in afreeca streaming even if they get banned, so this initiative removes that safety net. its pretty big considering that most progamers are pretty untalented in any other field and outside gaming they arent gonna do shit with their lives because they just havent prepared for it. i mean as much as i love bisu and for all his talents, once he returns from military and he hits his 30s, there is really not much he can do besides go back to school and attempt to study for another job again unless he plans on remaining as a caster or something in the esports scene
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On October 20 2015 13:04 ShambhalaWar wrote: I completely disagree with this.
What does streaming video games have to do with match-fixing?
How will banning someone from streaming in ANY WAY prevent future match-fixing?
It won't. They want to completely eradicate anyone who may have participated in match-fixing. I think in this case they are banning those guys from the Brood War match-fixing to make an example of them and the match-fixers caught yesterday.
This is KeSPA coming out and saying, "We will destroy your legacy. Now when people think of you, they will only think of the terrible thing that you did. They won't think of you streaming the other day, they'll think of how you threw games for money."
Personally, in some ways, I really do think this is going too far.
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Good move, I support KeSPA!
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Poland3743 Posts
Also it seems that at this point it's seems fishy on the legal part. Blizzard endorsed a game also as a streaming medium and esports platform so it's viable to have a lifestyle with income based on either of those activities.
KeSPA of course is just fine with banning them for breaking their rules, but if you start banning someone from - really - unrealted activities on top of court's penalties, you're just enforcing justice of your own which too me sounds like overstepping your boundaries.
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On October 20 2015 11:43 Jjjinyong wrote: been a long time coming. They can do whatever they want but they shouldn't stream starcraft. This isn't their playground. They can't matchfix and ruin a whole scene and come back trying to make money off of it. Just how gullible do they think the community is?
not sure I'd call it gullible, but when savior was playing for his stream he had a lot of donors. controversy even more interesting, and it doesn't take away from the fact that the play is good. point is, they still do it, and it still works, and they still get away with it for having something to give in return (gameplay).
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Afreeca isn't the only streaming site lol...even if they are banned from Afreeca (which i highly doubt they would), other lesser known korean streaming sites or China streams will take them in, and their fanatic fanbase will continue to support them no matter what.
just silly useless knee jerk reaction from kespa.
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On October 20 2015 13:12 geokilla wrote: Here KeSPA goes again. In a way I support this request but I feel they're going too far with it. What if I'm a full time streamer like MC? I'm not a competitive progamer anymore. Just a pro streamer who streams when I'm not busy with real life. If you still want to watch me stream and you enjoy it, nothing wrong with that. I think. Full time streaming is EXACTLY why I side with Kespa here. Yoda should NOT be allowed to make a living out of Starcraft now that this has come out. For that matter, if they want to ban the BW match fixers who now do the same thing, I would welcome it.
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they already abandoned bw and shit on all of us cant they just fucking leave us alone
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kespa isnt the court. they are asking for cooperation from streaming sites and probably blizzard too. if they dont get their way then its the end of that, but i feel kespa is well within their rights to ask as they are not just the governing body of esports but in a way they are also the players/teams' union. besides, there has never been precedence with cases like this, so if kespa can argue that match fixers do far too much damage to the industry that they should not be allowed to touch the game again, i think they might have their way
On October 20 2015 13:31 Probemicro wrote: Afreeca isn't the only streaming site lol...even if they are banned from Afreeca (which i highly doubt they would), other lesser known korean streaming sites or China streams will take them in, and their fanatic fanbase will continue to support them no matter what.
just silly useless knee jerk reaction from kespa.
if a massive site like afreeca cant allow match fixers to stream, what makes you think some random smaller site would survive? rofl and who would actually go to watch the random smaller site? afreeca basically monopolises korean streaming
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On October 20 2015 13:34 evilfatsh1t wrote: kespa isnt the court. they are asking for cooperation from streaming sites and probably blizzard too. if they dont get their way then its the end of that, but i feel kespa is well within their rights to ask as they are not just the governing body of esports but in a way they are also the players/teams' union. besides, there has never been precedence with cases like this, so if kespa can argue that match fixers do far too much damage to the industry that they should not be allowed to touch the game again, i think they might have their way what they requested bans for savior on afreeca forever, match fixing isnt new to sc2 you know
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China6280 Posts
Does this apply to new banned match fixers only?
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On October 20 2015 13:08 Waxangel wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 12:51 Wolf wrote: Based on conversations I had with Afreeca months ago, I do not think they will abide by this request. They don't have to listen to KeSPA. but the statement says they'll work with the game publisher to enforce this. Basically everyone in the industry acknowledges that game publishers own all the video/streaming rights to their games. KeSPA tried to fight Blizzard on this for years behind closed doors and lost. If Blizzard gets involved, do you think Afreeca wants to get into a legal confrontation over a handful of small-time streamers?
Will Blizzard actually get involved with this? This seems like the type of thing that Blizzard would just rather steer clear of.
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if a massive site like afreeca cant allow match fixers to stream, what makes you think some random smaller site would survive? rofl and who would actually go to watch the random smaller site? afreeca basically monopolises korean streaming
if savior starts streaming in China, he will be given truckloads of attention and money i can assure you...they dont give about a fuck about kespa or whatever in general. you are the foolish one here
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Besides, KeSPA raises civil suit against match fixers to punish`em.
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On October 20 2015 13:35 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 13:34 evilfatsh1t wrote: kespa isnt the court. they are asking for cooperation from streaming sites and probably blizzard too. if they dont get their way then its the end of that, but i feel kespa is well within their rights to ask as they are not just the governing body of esports but in a way they are also the players/teams' union. besides, there has never been precedence with cases like this, so if kespa can argue that match fixers do far too much damage to the industry that they should not be allowed to touch the game again, i think they might have their way what they requested bans for savior on afreeca forever, match fixing isnt new to sc2 you know i meant there is no law that allows or disallows kespa to do this. if kespa seriously pursued this i could see a court ruling in kespa's favour given how huge esports is in korea and kespas influence
On October 20 2015 13:38 Probemicro wrote:Show nested quote + if a massive site like afreeca cant allow match fixers to stream, what makes you think some random smaller site would survive? rofl and who would actually go to watch the random smaller site? afreeca basically monopolises korean streaming
if savior starts streaming in China, he will be given truckloads of attention and money i can assure you...they dont give about a fuck about kespa or whatever in general. you are the foolish one here lol wtf? saviors not gonna move to china rofl if kespa actually gets legal backing for this savior wont be able to stream from anywhere in korea period. i dont know how good his chinese but im willing to bet hes not gonna just leave korea to a country which he knows jackshit about and knows no one just so he can stream a game hes not even good at anymore. and lets say hypothetically that savior does go to china to stream despite everything. how many other small time progamers do you think could do the same? not everyone has a fanbase as big as saviors. at the very least kespa manages to shut down 99% of streaming for all match fixers. i dont think youre in any position to be calling someone foolish lol
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Japan11285 Posts
Do we even know if he still streams? Harem pointed out he shut down his Afreeca account (last seen streaming August)
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51133 Posts
I believe he is now studying in some remote city in Korea.
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On October 20 2015 13:43 evilfatsh1t wrote: lol wtf? saviors not gonna move to china rofl if kespa actually gets legal backing for this savior wont be able to stream from anywhere in korea period. i dont know how good his chinese but im willing to bet hes not gonna just leave korea to a country which he knows jackshit about and knows no one just so he can stream a game hes not even good at anymore. and lets say hypothetically that savior does go to china to stream despite everything. how many other small time progamers do you think could do the same? not everyone has a fanbase as big as saviors. at the very least kespa manages to shut down 99% of streaming for all match fixers. i dont think youre in any position to be calling someone foolish lol
i call you foolish because savior's fanbase, China or even afreeca dont give a fuck what you think.
savior has been PERSONALLY invited to a BW tournament in china not very long ago, kespa protest but they just laugh knowing they have no authority to tell them what to do in china. tbh savior doesn't really care much about streaming or BW in general, its just a way to interact and receive donations from his fanbase. his BW is not in the level of any pros but more than good enough to beat any random korean amateur and beat 99% of current foreigners playing.
savior has been streaming in afreeca for quite a few years since the 2010 incident...afreeca letting him stream shows they have no obligation to listen to kespa and there is no legal backing to stop him streaming, simply because its not illegal. his rabid fanbase will support him with donations no matter what he does
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On October 20 2015 14:07 Probemicro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 13:43 evilfatsh1t wrote: lol wtf? saviors not gonna move to china rofl if kespa actually gets legal backing for this savior wont be able to stream from anywhere in korea period. i dont know how good his chinese but im willing to bet hes not gonna just leave korea to a country which he knows jackshit about and knows no one just so he can stream a game hes not even good at anymore. and lets say hypothetically that savior does go to china to stream despite everything. how many other small time progamers do you think could do the same? not everyone has a fanbase as big as saviors. at the very least kespa manages to shut down 99% of streaming for all match fixers. i dont think youre in any position to be calling someone foolish lol i call you foolish because savior's fanbase, China or even afreeca dont give a fuck what you think. savior has been PERSONALLY invited to a BW tournament in china not very long ago, kespa protest but they just laugh knowing they have no authority to tell them what to do in china. tbh savior doesn't really care much about streaming or BW in general, its just a way to interact and receive donations from his fanbase. his BW is not in the level of any pros but more than good enough to beat any random korean amateur and beat 99% of current foreigners playing. savior has been streaming in afreeca for quite a few years since the 2010 incident...afreeca letting him stream shows they have no obligation to listen to kespa and there is no legal backing to stop him streaming, simply because its not illegal. his rabid fanbase will support him with donations no matter what he does lol i was right about you not being in any position to call someone foolish
since when did this all become about savior? i dont know why youre being so defensive of him for no reason. its extremely amusing to see that you have completely missed the point though. kespa isnt doing this to get back at savior rofl again, savior can stream all he wants, but he wont be doing it in korea if kespa get their way (which i believe could happen if kespa manages to get blizzard's backing). more to the point, no other match fixer will make money off gaming anymore, which is far more important than a single individual. stop kissing saviors ass and get in line with what the thread is actually about. savior hasnt streamed for ages btw, on afreeca at least.
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On October 20 2015 13:11 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 12:50 Circumstance wrote:On October 20 2015 12:40 c3rberUs wrote: sAviOr hasn't streamed since August and pls no, don't ban HwaSin. Streaming is not professional gaming. It's playing a game at set times for money. In Hearthstone, Kripparian might not be a competitive player, but that game is his profession. When you undermine the integrity of the game in any form, that game cannot be your livelihood. Twitch, Afreeca, et al. are being given a request by Kespa. They, as private organizations, are well within their right to decline, as I understand it (if it's a mandate, they can dispute it if they want). I find nothing unreasonable going on here. I can't imagine anyone would try to enforce ban on Lance Armstrong for making a show about cycling online or on TV if it wasn't part of UCI. Sure, they would protest but I would not see ban incoming. This is going too far imho.
This seems like a poor point when Lance Armstrong was basically forced to resign from his role in the Livestrong organization and Nike also discontinued their partnership with them at least in part due to the doping scandal.
Did Lance's doping have any effect on the fact that he recovered from cancer? No.
Usually, when you do something incredibly damaging to a community, the blow back echoes through all related industries.
Afreeca as well as all other streaming platforms have a vested interest in deterring match fixing in e-sports because it hurts a brand, community, and industry that they directly benefit off of. The scandal hurts the public perception of gaming and that impacts Afreeca as well. It also hurts other pro-gamers that stream on the same platform.
So while this is a bit harsh and probably extends beyond Kespa's responsibilities, I find it completely reasonable. Afreeca should've taken this initiative themselves. Afreeca wants e-sports to prosper and remain popular. They're in the same boat as Kespa.
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Dunno why people are getting mad at KeSPA, they're allowed to ask for this. Up to Afreeca and Blizz (If KeSPA brings them into this) if it'll happen or not.
Personally I don't have a problem with it.
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KeSPA can ask, but I sure hope Afreeca doesn't comply. For most of the Prime (especially YoDa) I can't help but feel bad because they were either blackmailed or forced by the coach.
Still shitty to even get involved to begin with, but when you're essentially stuck with it there is nothing you can do.
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@evilf@tshit because...him and hwasin are the only prominent former matchfixers to stream heavily on afreeca before? gogo hardly streams, if ever, those few people in the sc2 incident do not stream on afreeca either.
honestly its the same deal for hwasin...and unlike savior, other pros have included hwasin in their balloon activities, hwasin has even been invited to a few official afreeca events before...
it just shows kespa no authority to stop them from streaming, their request simply a knee jerk reaction for PR. only society will affect them however they want
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I don't really agree with this, especially if the streamers are making money from donations... It's viewer's choice if they want to support a matchfixer. And what if they just want to stream a different game (however unlikely that may be). I hope Afreeca will not comply.
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On October 20 2015 12:15 Waxangel wrote: It's totally enforceable if they get Blizzard to tell Afreeca to kill those streams.
You remember that time like six years ago, when KeSPA tried to argue that broadcast rights belonged to anyone BUT the developer of the game? Remember how that shit ended?
Yep :/ I'm all for it. Need to have something enforceable anywhere to try and make people think twice before doing it.
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Kespa is a special kind of stupid if they think this is a good idea. That, or maybe their from North Korea.
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On October 20 2015 14:33 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 12:15 Waxangel wrote: It's totally enforceable if they get Blizzard to tell Afreeca to kill those streams.
You remember that time like six years ago, when KeSPA tried to argue that broadcast rights belonged to anyone BUT the developer of the game? Remember how that shit ended? Yep :/ I'm all for it. Need to have something enforceable anywhere to try and make people think twice before doing it. So they are forcing young kids to stay in a house whole day playing video games for more than 12 hours in many cases without salary and no promise of getting any reward,they wasted their young there,no studies ,then they turn 22 and see how they have nothing to construct their life and loss one game can gave them 3k.usd.i dont support it but i kind of understand their situation.and it is kespa fault at the end.
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On October 20 2015 14:40 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 14:33 StarStruck wrote:On October 20 2015 12:15 Waxangel wrote: It's totally enforceable if they get Blizzard to tell Afreeca to kill those streams.
You remember that time like six years ago, when KeSPA tried to argue that broadcast rights belonged to anyone BUT the developer of the game? Remember how that shit ended? Yep :/ I'm all for it. Need to have something enforceable anywhere to try and make people think twice before doing it. So they are forcing young kids to stay in a house whole day playing video games for more than 12 hours in many cases without salary and no promise of getting any reward,they wasted their young there,no studies ,then they turn 22 and see how they have nothing to construct their life and loss one game can gave them 3k.usd.i dont support it but i kind of understand their situation.and it is kespa fault at the end. what the fuck? progaming isnt some slave industry so not sure wtf youre talking about. how you could even think to justify match-fixers' actions by saying they were 'forced' to be a progamer just boggles my mind. progamers are progamers because THEY CHOOSE TO BE. if they fail at it then its their own damn fault; they sucked. kespa has done more than any other organisation on the planet for the sustainability of esports. this includes the care and management of players especially those linked to teams under the kespa organisation. if some guys who chose this path realise later on that theyre too shit to win anything so they take the losers' route and match fix in order to get some quick money, then they deserve everything they get. some people are actually still practicing their asses off to get to a level where they can still win something and the match fixing shit just shoots all those possibilities down.
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Typical Kespa. I hope Afreeca does their own thing and not listen to Kespa.
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Kespa needs some more convincing arguments than that.
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I'm split on this, I'm all for stronger deterrant for matchfixing and also think that those that do doesn't deserve to earn money on the game again but I also don't think its fair if they go and mess with old BW matchfixers.
If they do this I would prefer if it would be matchfixers in sc2 they went after and not bw, it would accomplish the same thing without annoying/aggrevating an already small bw scene.
I feel people generally have a right to do and stream whatever they want(none offensive) but in a case were their actions have significantly hurt the scene like this I can also understand that maybe that right can be taken away.
But in the end it will probably be up to Blizz.
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On October 20 2015 11:43 Jjjinyong wrote: been a long time coming. They can do whatever they want but they shouldn't stream starcraft. This isn't their playground. They can't matchfix and ruin a whole scene and come back trying to make money off of it. Just how gullible do they think the community is?
Worked with Savior
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On October 20 2015 11:33 GTR wrote: Seems like they want to get rid of players such as Hwasin and recently go.go who've propped up on Afreeca recently. To be honest I think this is pretty unfair of a demand - Afreeca have no relationship with KeSPA whatsoever and it infringes on their rights as people.
My, my but aren't you the lawyer... Do you even know what the legislation in Korea is like?
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there is obvious conflict of interest, regardless of opinion
afreeca now has gsl in one hand, and matchfixers in the other
how can company continue gsl policies against matchfixer, and continue turning a blind eye to match fixer companies under same banner?
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not hard to imagine kespa withdrawing kespa player from gsl, in order to help recover from damage from matchfixing
or use as threat
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On October 20 2015 16:40 BeStFAN wrote: there is obvious conflict of interest, regardless of opinion
afreeca now has gsl in one hand, and matchfixers in the other
how can company continue gsl policies against matchfixer, and continue turning a blind eye to match fixer companies under same banner? Good point.
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This legal stuff is getting out of hand. No one has the right for a specific site to allow them to stream there, if the site chooses to they can ban whoever they want. Its up to the site to decide, there´s no universal human right to "not get banned from specific streamsites", that people think this is scary actually. Blizz decides who are allowed to stream sc2 on the internet anywhere, its no universal right to break copyright. (Just look at Nintendo)
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On October 20 2015 11:43 Jjjinyong wrote: been a long time coming. They can do whatever they want but they shouldn't stream starcraft. This isn't their playground. They can't matchfix and ruin a whole scene and come back trying to make money off of it. Just how gullible do they think the community is?
considering the amount of viewers this fuckers have... way too gullible...
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Afreeca let Savior to stream, so why wouldn't they let the others..
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On October 20 2015 12:40 lestye wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 12:15 castleeMg wrote: lol wow kespa is pretty hardcore about this, i thought a perm ban from pro gaming would be enough.. Na, Kespa will use all the social capital they have to make their lives miserable. I remember Kespa tried to implore Blizzard a few years back to make certain Chinese BW organizers ban Savior since Savior was apparently competing or doing some activity in China.
Which is good. Make sure they will never touch the game again.
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On October 20 2015 16:42 BeStFAN wrote: not hard to imagine kespa withdrawing kespa player from gsl, in order to help recover from damage from matchfixing
or use as threat
you realise this is bad for kespa players as well, losing chance at wcs points/prize money?
the only way is for blizzard to finally make a hardline ethical stance and threaten to withdraw funding from afreeca gsl unless they comply. good luck having a corporate company adopt that over a couple of (currently) inactive matchfixers from a different, defunct game.
as expected.
On October 20 2015 17:17 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 12:40 lestye wrote:On October 20 2015 12:15 castleeMg wrote: lol wow kespa is pretty hardcore about this, i thought a perm ban from pro gaming would be enough.. Na, Kespa will use all the social capital they have to make their lives miserable. I remember Kespa tried to implore Blizzard a few years back to make certain Chinese BW organizers ban Savior since Savior was apparently competing or doing some activity in China. Which is good. Make sure they will never touch the game again.
lolwut, no ban, china just laugh. they can invite savior whenever they please
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On October 20 2015 13:12 geokilla wrote: Here KeSPA goes again. In a way I support this request but I feel they're going too far with it. What if I'm a full time streamer like MC? I'm not a competitive progamer anymore. Just a pro streamer who streams when I'm not busy with real life. If you still want to watch me stream and you enjoy it, nothing wrong with that. I think.
but MC would never cheat.
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Yeah, that doesn't surprise me at all.
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I don`t get it. Though I `ve hated Afreeca since 2006, I thought that they would take some responsibility as a body of e-sports operation.
of course KeSPA`s request was not enforceable, but this is sth ethical. meh.
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On October 20 2015 13:38 Probemicro wrote:Show nested quote + if a massive site like afreeca cant allow match fixers to stream, what makes you think some random smaller site would survive? rofl and who would actually go to watch the random smaller site? afreeca basically monopolises korean streaming
if savior starts streaming in China, he will be given truckloads of attention and money i can assure you...they dont give about a fuck about kespa or whatever in general. you are the foolish one here
just no bw in china is non existent.. lol
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On October 20 2015 17:23 Thouhastmail wrote: I don`t get it. Though I `ve hated Afreeca since 2006, I thought that they would take some responsibility as a body of e-sports operation.
They are. They won't let the match-fixers participate in their tournaments.
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On October 20 2015 17:23 Thouhastmail wrote: I don`t get it. Though I `ve hated Afreeca since 2006, I thought that they would take some responsibility as a body of e-sports operation.
lol no, they are a body of the TerrOr cult movement
On October 20 2015 17:25 Specialist wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 13:38 Probemicro wrote: if a massive site like afreeca cant allow match fixers to stream, what makes you think some random smaller site would survive? rofl and who would actually go to watch the random smaller site? afreeca basically monopolises korean streaming
if savior starts streaming in China, he will be given truckloads of attention and money i can assure you...they dont give about a fuck about kespa or whatever in general. you are the foolish one here just no bw in china is non existent.. lol
its small but its not nonexistant. just a month or so ago they had a fucking 60k USD prizepool 1V1 AND 2V2 tournament lol Koudai Finance BW Cup please don't say anything if you are ignorant of the Chinese BW scene
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and this is the company that will host GSL in the future? The way I see it the new hosts of GSL are okay with matchfixing and ruining the community.
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On October 20 2015 17:19 Probemicro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 16:42 BeStFAN wrote: not hard to imagine kespa withdrawing kespa player from gsl, in order to help recover from damage from matchfixing
or use as threat you realise this is bad for kespa players as well, losing chance at wcs points/prize money?
it would not be first time that there is embargo, even against player wishes
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United States32484 Posts
Interesting to see if this will escalate.
Will Blizzard get involved and invoke their rights over streaming?
Will KeSPA boycott GSL?
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On October 20 2015 17:33 BeStFAN wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 17:19 Probemicro wrote:On October 20 2015 16:42 BeStFAN wrote: not hard to imagine kespa withdrawing kespa player from gsl, in order to help recover from damage from matchfixing
or use as threat you realise this is bad for kespa players as well, losing chance at wcs points/prize money? it would not be first time that there is embargo, even against player wishes
the scene isn't really well-off, they don't have that kind of luxury
only blizzard can do something
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So if google translate didn't have a colossal name screw up, it seems the Afreeca response is only about the guys from the 2010 BW scandal. In which case KeSPA should realise that they stopped their own involvement with BW years ago so they'll have a hard time trying to control this.
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Czech Republic12116 Posts
On October 20 2015 13:32 Circumstance wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 13:12 geokilla wrote: Here KeSPA goes again. In a way I support this request but I feel they're going too far with it. What if I'm a full time streamer like MC? I'm not a competitive progamer anymore. Just a pro streamer who streams when I'm not busy with real life. If you still want to watch me stream and you enjoy it, nothing wrong with that. I think. Full time streaming is EXACTLY why I side with Kespa here. Yoda should NOT be allowed to make a living out of Starcraft now that this has come out. For that matter, if they want to ban the BW match fixers who now do the same thing, I would welcome it. Well, in this case the matchfixing players are able to make living of the game only because followers of said game ARE watching them. Stop watching them, case closed. Obviously there are people who give no fuck about this and they want to watch them. Get over it.
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I don't really know shit about korean law, but in Europe, this would likely not fly. Afreeca is a business and businesses are explicitly NOT allowed to pick customers, that's a big part of what anti-discrimination laws are about. They might refuse service to someone they are in a direct dispute with or in similar cases when they have a good reason to protect their own assets, but I can't see how other organisations' problems with someone qualifies. The same then comes for Blizzard - they can't just choose that they will allow the use of their product in a specific way only for some people (no matter what is written in some "agreement", in Europe, the any agreement that puts the customer into a worse position that is quaranteeed by law is automatically void).
Personally, I also disagree. If they want them to be banned from some activity, they should get a court order for that. "Justice" performed by a bunch of private companies is very bad concept that should not be supported.
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Czech Republic12116 Posts
On October 20 2015 17:32 NEEDZMOAR wrote:and this is the company that will host GSL in the future? The way I see it the new hosts of GSL are okay with matchfixing and ruining the community. Ehm, they seeded YoDa into GSL or what are you talking about?
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On October 20 2015 18:02 opisska wrote: I don't really know shit about korean law, but in Europe, this would likely not fly. Afreeca is a business and businesses are explicitly NOT allowed to pick customers, that's a big part of what anti-discrimination laws are about. They might refuse service to someone they are in a direct dispute with or in similar cases when they have a good reason to protect their own assets, but I can't see how other organisations' problems with someone qualifies. The same then comes for Blizzard - they can't just choose that they will allow the use of their product in a specific way only for some people (no matter what is written in some "agreement", in Europe, the any agreement that puts the customer into a worse position that is quaranteeed by law is automatically void).
Personally, I also disagree. If they want them to be banned from some activity, they should get a court order for that. "Justice" performed by a bunch of private companies is very bad concept that should not be supported.
Kespa is a NGO, not a private for-profit company. they have no jurisdiction outside of their own tournaments
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I don't know what world some people are living in. More and more pros are coming out and saying match fixers are harassing them daily. This means there are likely more players/coaches/betting people involved. We've just hit the head of the iceberg. We need even more strict measures. Strip them of all salary earned in the past.
I have 0 sympathy for people who do this to sc2. They should never be allowed to make a dime from this game again.
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On October 20 2015 17:42 Probemicro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 17:33 BeStFAN wrote:On October 20 2015 17:19 Probemicro wrote:On October 20 2015 16:42 BeStFAN wrote: not hard to imagine kespa withdrawing kespa player from gsl, in order to help recover from damage from matchfixing
or use as threat you realise this is bad for kespa players as well, losing chance at wcs points/prize money? it would not be first time that there is embargo, even against player wishes the scene isn't really well-off, they don't have that kind of luxury only blizzard can do something
star2 scene is relatively unimportant for kespa it is black eye for all team, and for kespa that they have associated with PRIME for now years in proleague (which mean loyal fans regularly see games that are manipulated)
compared to widespread suspicion about scene, the number arrested is relatively small. there will continue to be suspicion.
this means that kespa now has bad image, justified or not. if they allow kespa player to play in afreeca gsl, it makes them vulnerable to further damage.
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Czech Republic12116 Posts
On October 20 2015 18:07 TRaFFiC wrote: I don't know what world some people are living in. More and more pros are coming out and saying match fixers are harassing them daily. This means there are likely more players/coaches/betting people involved. We've just hit the head of the iceberg. We need even more strict measures. Strip them of all salary earned in the past.
I have 0 sympathy for people who do this to sc2. They should never be allowed to make a dime from this game again. Well that's easy, they earned nothing so you can strip nothing from their salaries. That's probably the main reason why they match fixed. Because they don't earn ANYTHING while being "professionals". I don't know, a professional player is someone who is being payed for doing their job. They were not payed, are they still professionals? (well they are, but still...)
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if it does become embargo-fight, kespa has more leverage because gsl would not be able to function with almost all player being kespa player.
kespa keep player in line
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On October 20 2015 18:07 TRaFFiC wrote: I don't know what world some people are living in. More and more pros are coming out and saying match fixers are harassing them daily. This means there are likely more players/coaches/betting people involved. We've just hit the head of the iceberg. We need even more strict measures. Strip them of all salary earned in the past.
I have 0 sympathy for people who do this to sc2. They should never be allowed to make a dime from this game again.
Some people have really brilliant legal thinking. Sure, KeSPA can try to sue them for damage, no problem. But in what world you live, where an employer can retroactively take back employee's salary on his own decision?
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I find it hilariously cute how extremist asian countries are able to convince 1st world countries that making a bet on a video game is such a heinous crime. Sheep.
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On October 20 2015 18:15 gyrus wrote: I find it hilariously cute how extremist asian countries are able to convince 1st world countries that making a bet on a video game is such a heinous crime. Sheep.
:/ they don't care about other country lol
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On October 20 2015 18:10 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 18:07 TRaFFiC wrote: I don't know what world some people are living in. More and more pros are coming out and saying match fixers are harassing them daily. This means there are likely more players/coaches/betting people involved. We've just hit the head of the iceberg. We need even more strict measures. Strip them of all salary earned in the past.
I have 0 sympathy for people who do this to sc2. They should never be allowed to make a dime from this game again. Well that's easy, they earned nothing so you can strip nothing from their salaries. That's probably the main reason why they match fixed. Because they don't earn ANYTHING while being "professionals". I don't know, a professional player is someone who is being payed for doing their job. They were not payed, are they still professionals? (well they are, but still...) Even if it's true they earned no salary, all any Korean pro on a kespa team has to do is turn on a webcam 4 hours a day with a donation button and they will make enough donations to eat. Being able to live in a team house and be fed for free is a privilege in itself and one many people would kill for. Salary isn't the only way to make money, but regardless there is no excuse. What they did is worse than cheating.
On October 20 2015 18:14 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 18:07 TRaFFiC wrote: I don't know what world some people are living in. More and more pros are coming out and saying match fixers are harassing them daily. This means there are likely more players/coaches/betting people involved. We've just hit the head of the iceberg. We need even more strict measures. Strip them of all salary earned in the past.
I have 0 sympathy for people who do this to sc2. They should never be allowed to make a dime from this game again. Some people have really brilliant legal thinking. Sure, KeSPA can try to sue them for damage, no problem. But in what world you live, where an employer can retroactively take back employee's salary on his own decision?
I have no idea if it's legally viable, never claimed such. Just spit balling.
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On October 20 2015 18:17 TRaFFiC wrote: Even if it's true they earned no salary, all any Korean pro on a kespa team has to do is turn on a webcam 4 hours a day with a donation button and they will make enough donations to eat. Being able to live in a team house and be fed for free is a privilege in itself and one many people would kill for. Salary isn't the only way to make money, but regardless there is no excuse. What they did is worse than cheating.
i do not think anyone disagree that it is bad...
but it is weird to read someone on computer saying that young men with computer and parents should be grateful for basic needs, when other question whether it is basically proper labor condition
and there is huge opportunity cost for (mostly) smart young mind to sleep and eat play game and not get education or compensation or job experience.
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Czech Republic12116 Posts
On October 20 2015 18:17 TRaFFiC wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 18:10 deacon.frost wrote:On October 20 2015 18:07 TRaFFiC wrote: I don't know what world some people are living in. More and more pros are coming out and saying match fixers are harassing them daily. This means there are likely more players/coaches/betting people involved. We've just hit the head of the iceberg. We need even more strict measures. Strip them of all salary earned in the past.
I have 0 sympathy for people who do this to sc2. They should never be allowed to make a dime from this game again. Well that's easy, they earned nothing so you can strip nothing from their salaries. That's probably the main reason why they match fixed. Because they don't earn ANYTHING while being "professionals". I don't know, a professional player is someone who is being payed for doing their job. They were not payed, are they still professionals? (well they are, but still...) Even if it's true they earned no salary, all any Korean pro on a kespa team has to do is turn on a webcam 4 hours a day with a donation button and they will make enough donations to eat. Being able to live in a team house and be fed for free is a privilege in itself and one many people would kill for. Salary isn't the only way to make money, but regardless there is no excuse. What they did is worse than cheating. When you earn food and not that good living conditions(though that's applied based on my standards) the entry barrier for corruption is comically low.
That's how things work. If you want to stop this you have to give them at least something so you raise the entry barrier
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On October 20 2015 18:02 opisska wrote: I don't really know shit about korean law, but in Europe, this would likely not fly. Afreeca is a business and businesses are explicitly NOT allowed to pick customers, that's a big part of what anti-discrimination laws are about. They might refuse service to someone they are in a direct dispute with or in similar cases when they have a good reason to protect their own assets, but I can't see how other organisations' problems with someone qualifies. The same then comes for Blizzard - they can't just choose that they will allow the use of their product in a specific way only for some people (no matter what is written in some "agreement", in Europe, the any agreement that puts the customer into a worse position that is quaranteeed by law is automatically void).
Personally, I also disagree. If they want them to be banned from some activity, they should get a court order for that. "Justice" performed by a bunch of private companies is very bad concept that should not be supported. Actually this is a misunderstanding, I don't know which "european laws" you are referring to but discrimination laws do not work the way you think they do. They do not in Sweden anyway and I have a ahrd time believing we have different ones than what EU has across its members. The way it works is you are not allowed to discriminate certain groups, in essence a company or a store is allowed to deny/ban any customer they wish. Companies don't do this because its usually bad reputation(obviously) and because the stores/companies are free to do this the law against discrimination was made. This made it so that you are not allowed to systematically discriminate certain Groups.
In sweden these Groups constitutes "gender, gender identity or expression, ethnicity , religion or other belief , disability, sexual orientation or age" So unless the person/Group that is denied or banned can prove it was because of any of these reasons the companies can do what the hell they want. They can refuse to sell to some people if they feel like it, its their right.
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Korea (South)17174 Posts
kespa should ban more than 3% of the matchfixers from their own leagues before they make these demands
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On October 20 2015 18:30 Rekrul wrote: kespa should ban more than 3% of the matchfixers from their own leagues before they make these demands
smooth
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On October 20 2015 18:29 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 18:02 opisska wrote: I don't really know shit about korean law, but in Europe, this would likely not fly. Afreeca is a business and businesses are explicitly NOT allowed to pick customers, that's a big part of what anti-discrimination laws are about. They might refuse service to someone they are in a direct dispute with or in similar cases when they have a good reason to protect their own assets, but I can't see how other organisations' problems with someone qualifies. The same then comes for Blizzard - they can't just choose that they will allow the use of their product in a specific way only for some people (no matter what is written in some "agreement", in Europe, the any agreement that puts the customer into a worse position that is quaranteeed by law is automatically void).
Personally, I also disagree. If they want them to be banned from some activity, they should get a court order for that. "Justice" performed by a bunch of private companies is very bad concept that should not be supported. Actually this is a misunderstanding, I don't know which "european laws" you are referring to but discrimination laws do not work the way you think they do. They do not in Sweden anyway and I have a ahrd time believing we have different ones than what EU has across its members. The way it works is you are not allowed to discriminate certain groups, in essence a company or a store is allowed to deny/ban any customer they wish. Companies don't do this because its usually bad reputation(obviously) and because the stores/companies are free to do this the law against discrimination was made. This made it so that you are not allowed to systematically discriminate certain Groups. In sweden these Groups constitutes "gender, gender identity or expression, ethnicity , religion or other belief , disability, sexual orientation or age" So unless the person/Group that is denied or banned can prove it was because of any of these reasons the companies can do what the hell they want. They can refuse to sell to some people if they feel like it, its their right.
I thought this is an European concept, but maybe it isn't. However I was under the impression that in Czech Republic you can't just refuse service to a random individual because you could always hide your discrimination against a group by just picking individuals (and then the group motivation would be much harder to prove). But maybe that's the case of us being stricter than neccessary, it happens a lot.
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France9034 Posts
This is completely uncalled for. They are banned from pro-gaming. That's enough. they won't be able to ever do that again. That's the point.
Now if they want to stream, and they still got fans after being convicted, that is because they're doing something right, be it skill-wise or entertainment-wise, something that appeal to these fans, and they deserve to keep these fans and w/e money they can make out of that stream. This is bullshit, seriously...
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On October 20 2015 18:53 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 18:29 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 20 2015 18:02 opisska wrote: I don't really know shit about korean law, but in Europe, this would likely not fly. Afreeca is a business and businesses are explicitly NOT allowed to pick customers, that's a big part of what anti-discrimination laws are about. They might refuse service to someone they are in a direct dispute with or in similar cases when they have a good reason to protect their own assets, but I can't see how other organisations' problems with someone qualifies. The same then comes for Blizzard - they can't just choose that they will allow the use of their product in a specific way only for some people (no matter what is written in some "agreement", in Europe, the any agreement that puts the customer into a worse position that is quaranteeed by law is automatically void).
Personally, I also disagree. If they want them to be banned from some activity, they should get a court order for that. "Justice" performed by a bunch of private companies is very bad concept that should not be supported. Actually this is a misunderstanding, I don't know which "european laws" you are referring to but discrimination laws do not work the way you think they do. They do not in Sweden anyway and I have a ahrd time believing we have different ones than what EU has across its members. The way it works is you are not allowed to discriminate certain groups, in essence a company or a store is allowed to deny/ban any customer they wish. Companies don't do this because its usually bad reputation(obviously) and because the stores/companies are free to do this the law against discrimination was made. This made it so that you are not allowed to systematically discriminate certain Groups. In sweden these Groups constitutes "gender, gender identity or expression, ethnicity , religion or other belief , disability, sexual orientation or age" So unless the person/Group that is denied or banned can prove it was because of any of these reasons the companies can do what the hell they want. They can refuse to sell to some people if they feel like it, its their right. I thought this is an European concept, but maybe it isn't. However I was under the impression that in Czech Republic you can't just refuse service to a random individual because you could always hide your discrimination against a group by just picking individuals (and then the group motivation would be much harder to prove). But maybe that's the case of us being stricter than neccessary, it happens a lot. Its the same(or similar) in Sweden, basically no one is ever refused service, the reasons are likely many but in the rare chance that it does happen everyone goes crazy and state that its not allowed. Its practically never done to the extent that everyone thinks its against the law but it actually isn't. Sounds like its similar in our countries, that it is not done however does not mean that its strictly agains the law.
These kinds of situations come up sometimes though like a company can refuse a job if they see it will be too much work to be worth it or if it would rather cost them more than they would make. Companies do have great freedoms by the law but fear(for discrimination charges) and reputation loss keeps them from using it.
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Czech Republic12116 Posts
On October 20 2015 18:53 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 18:29 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 20 2015 18:02 opisska wrote: I don't really know shit about korean law, but in Europe, this would likely not fly. Afreeca is a business and businesses are explicitly NOT allowed to pick customers, that's a big part of what anti-discrimination laws are about. They might refuse service to someone they are in a direct dispute with or in similar cases when they have a good reason to protect their own assets, but I can't see how other organisations' problems with someone qualifies. The same then comes for Blizzard - they can't just choose that they will allow the use of their product in a specific way only for some people (no matter what is written in some "agreement", in Europe, the any agreement that puts the customer into a worse position that is quaranteeed by law is automatically void).
Personally, I also disagree. If they want them to be banned from some activity, they should get a court order for that. "Justice" performed by a bunch of private companies is very bad concept that should not be supported. Actually this is a misunderstanding, I don't know which "european laws" you are referring to but discrimination laws do not work the way you think they do. They do not in Sweden anyway and I have a ahrd time believing we have different ones than what EU has across its members. The way it works is you are not allowed to discriminate certain groups, in essence a company or a store is allowed to deny/ban any customer they wish. Companies don't do this because its usually bad reputation(obviously) and because the stores/companies are free to do this the law against discrimination was made. This made it so that you are not allowed to systematically discriminate certain Groups. In sweden these Groups constitutes "gender, gender identity or expression, ethnicity , religion or other belief , disability, sexual orientation or age" So unless the person/Group that is denied or banned can prove it was because of any of these reasons the companies can do what the hell they want. They can refuse to sell to some people if they feel like it, its their right. I thought this is an European concept, but maybe it isn't. However I was under the impression that in Czech Republic you can't just refuse service to a random individual because you could always hide your discrimination against a group by just picking individuals (and then the group motivation would be much harder to prove). But maybe that's the case of us being stricter than neccessary, it happens a lot. We have it the same way You can refuse anyone you like but in, ehm, "some" cases you have to have a good reason(you know who is the case )
The reason why is this not happening is that it damages the public image. You never know who you are refusing and usually there's no way to refuse a customer who wants to pay you money. It is usually applied to drunks and thieves caught in the shop before.
Right now the only one who can ban them is Blizzard. Afreeca isn't affected by them. They haven't damaged their brand nor their streaming service. They damaged the SC2 image which could be a reason for Blizzard to ban their accounts but they can buy new accounts and that would meant for Blizzard to either ban them again and return their money or do nothing. Both actions would be viewed as bad because in western countries is the thing that you cannot be punished twice for the same crime(meaning new account should be OK). And if they do nothing some people will go bat shit crazy as they are doing now
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I hardly have any sympathy for these matchfixers if they are going to get banned from touching StarCraft ever again.
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The real problem with those matchfixers is that they are constantly insulting current pro-gamers and making stupid rumors about them. Progamers may not take matchfixing as a big deal if Kespa does not strictly punish matchfixers. We don't want any more progamers becoming matchfixer.
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On October 20 2015 17:32 NEEDZMOAR wrote:and this is the company that will host GSL in the future? The way I see it the new hosts of GSL are okay with matchfixing and ruining the community.
They should ban all convicted criminals from their streaming service lest they be seen as an organisation that approves of criminal activity?
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On October 20 2015 18:30 Rekrul wrote: kespa should ban more than 3% of the matchfixers from their own leagues before they make these demands I would like so much from you to eleborate. Unfortunately you never do..
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Didn't these players violate Blizzard's terms anyway by matchfixing? Shouldn't Blizzard ban them from playing any Blizzard games?
Edit: I guess KeSPA wants to ban them from streaming any game, like LoL for example, too.
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On October 20 2015 19:29 Musicus wrote: Didn't these players violate Blizzard's terms anyway by matchfixing? Shouldn't Blizzard ban them from playing any Blizzard games? Maybe, if it's in BW's EULA.
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On October 20 2015 18:30 Rekrul wrote: kespa should ban more than 3% of the matchfixers from their own leagues before they make these demands
If you know something then you should probably say it instead of making random cryptic messages on a board that Kespa doesn't even check.
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On October 20 2015 14:40 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 14:33 StarStruck wrote:On October 20 2015 12:15 Waxangel wrote: It's totally enforceable if they get Blizzard to tell Afreeca to kill those streams.
You remember that time like six years ago, when KeSPA tried to argue that broadcast rights belonged to anyone BUT the developer of the game? Remember how that shit ended? Yep :/ I'm all for it. Need to have something enforceable anywhere to try and make people think twice before doing it. So they are forcing young kids to stay in a house whole day playing video games for more than 12 hours in many cases without salary and no promise of getting any reward,they wasted their young there,no studies ,then they turn 22 and see how they have nothing to construct their life and loss one game can gave them 3k.usd.i dont support it but i kind of understand their situation.and it is kespa fault at the end. I agree with you man. i remember on stream larva talking about b-teamer life, its like 10+ hour of gaming and in between you have to clean, cook, dishes, laundry and all sorts of manual labor. they only get paid like 0~500$ a month and only select few who are good enough get to go to A-teamer house where they are again treated like servants/practice dummy. shit is rough, its like legal slavery and they really are wasting time if they don't make it while their peers are graduating high school and going to unis and shit.
what they needed was some kind of progamer's union, but never happened. industry stayed top heavy, teams sponsored by corporate giants but all the money is going elsewhere. they were so busy marketing a good image of progaming with the top players as if its something worth pursuing while probably 90% of kids just wasted a good chunk of their youth. its such a shady business if you think about it, not surprising matchfixing and other criminal activities keep happening lol
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On October 20 2015 19:07 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 18:53 opisska wrote:On October 20 2015 18:29 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 20 2015 18:02 opisska wrote: I don't really know shit about korean law, but in Europe, this would likely not fly. Afreeca is a business and businesses are explicitly NOT allowed to pick customers, that's a big part of what anti-discrimination laws are about. They might refuse service to someone they are in a direct dispute with or in similar cases when they have a good reason to protect their own assets, but I can't see how other organisations' problems with someone qualifies. The same then comes for Blizzard - they can't just choose that they will allow the use of their product in a specific way only for some people (no matter what is written in some "agreement", in Europe, the any agreement that puts the customer into a worse position that is quaranteeed by law is automatically void).
Personally, I also disagree. If they want them to be banned from some activity, they should get a court order for that. "Justice" performed by a bunch of private companies is very bad concept that should not be supported. Actually this is a misunderstanding, I don't know which "european laws" you are referring to but discrimination laws do not work the way you think they do. They do not in Sweden anyway and I have a ahrd time believing we have different ones than what EU has across its members. The way it works is you are not allowed to discriminate certain groups, in essence a company or a store is allowed to deny/ban any customer they wish. Companies don't do this because its usually bad reputation(obviously) and because the stores/companies are free to do this the law against discrimination was made. This made it so that you are not allowed to systematically discriminate certain Groups. In sweden these Groups constitutes "gender, gender identity or expression, ethnicity , religion or other belief , disability, sexual orientation or age" So unless the person/Group that is denied or banned can prove it was because of any of these reasons the companies can do what the hell they want. They can refuse to sell to some people if they feel like it, its their right. I thought this is an European concept, but maybe it isn't. However I was under the impression that in Czech Republic you can't just refuse service to a random individual because you could always hide your discrimination against a group by just picking individuals (and then the group motivation would be much harder to prove). But maybe that's the case of us being stricter than neccessary, it happens a lot. We have it the same way You can refuse anyone you like but in, ehm, "some" cases you have to have a good reason(you know who is the case ) The reason why is this not happening is that it damages the public image. You never know who you are refusing and usually there's no way to refuse a customer who wants to pay you money. It is usually applied to drunks and thieves caught in the shop before. Right now the only one who can ban them is Blizzard. Afreeca isn't affected by them. They haven't damaged their brand nor their streaming service. They damaged the SC2 image which could be a reason for Blizzard to ban their accounts but they can buy new accounts and that would meant for Blizzard to either ban them again and return their money or do nothing. Both actions would be viewed as bad because in western countries is the thing that you cannot be punished twice for the same crime(meaning new account should be OK). And if they do nothing some people will go bat shit crazy as they are doing now
It all depends on the EULA, if you're banned from a service but didn't break any rules in the EULA, a request at the european court of human rights would protect you, in this case for the sheer fact that you can't be punished twice for the same crime. And I agree with the initial statement, things should be enforced by law, not by companies agreement.
That said, Korean law is indeed fucked up and companies have much more power than the legal governenment (see Samsung vs Unions for example...)
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On October 20 2015 19:35 jinyung2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 14:40 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:On October 20 2015 14:33 StarStruck wrote:On October 20 2015 12:15 Waxangel wrote: It's totally enforceable if they get Blizzard to tell Afreeca to kill those streams.
You remember that time like six years ago, when KeSPA tried to argue that broadcast rights belonged to anyone BUT the developer of the game? Remember how that shit ended? Yep :/ I'm all for it. Need to have something enforceable anywhere to try and make people think twice before doing it. So they are forcing young kids to stay in a house whole day playing video games for more than 12 hours in many cases without salary and no promise of getting any reward,they wasted their young there,no studies ,then they turn 22 and see how they have nothing to construct their life and loss one game can gave them 3k.usd.i dont support it but i kind of understand their situation.and it is kespa fault at the end. what they needed was some kind of progamer's union, but never happened.
Boxer tried to make one and asked a gamer to lead the campaign, whose nick is sAviOr
LMAO
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On October 20 2015 19:35 jinyung2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 14:40 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:On October 20 2015 14:33 StarStruck wrote:On October 20 2015 12:15 Waxangel wrote: It's totally enforceable if they get Blizzard to tell Afreeca to kill those streams.
You remember that time like six years ago, when KeSPA tried to argue that broadcast rights belonged to anyone BUT the developer of the game? Remember how that shit ended? Yep :/ I'm all for it. Need to have something enforceable anywhere to try and make people think twice before doing it. So they are forcing young kids to stay in a house whole day playing video games for more than 12 hours in many cases without salary and no promise of getting any reward,they wasted their young there,no studies ,then they turn 22 and see how they have nothing to construct their life and loss one game can gave them 3k.usd.i dont support it but i kind of understand their situation.and it is kespa fault at the end. I agree with you man. i remember on stream larva talking about b-teamer life, its like 10+ hour of gaming and in between you have to clean, cook, dishes, laundry and all sorts of manual labor. they only get paid like 0~500$ a month and only select few who are good enough get to go to A-teamer house where they are again treated like servants/practice dummy. shit is rough, its like legal slavery and they really are wasting time if they don't make it while their peers are graduating high school and going to unis and shit. what they needed was some kind of progamer's union, but never happened. industry stayed top heavy, teams sponsored by corporate giants but all the money is going elsewhere. they were so busy marketing a good image of progaming with the top players as if its something worth pursuing while probably 90% of kids just wasted a good chunk of their youth. its such a shady business if you think about it, not surprising matchfixing and other criminal activities keep happening lol
This is problem of all pro-scenes. Same thing happens in other pro-sports scenes such as baseball and football.
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Stop being fucking silly kespa. What's next, contact their ISPs to demand they turn their internet access off so they can't play games?
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this is why I really don't like kespa. Sure, clean the mess up within your organization but don't tell other businesses who they can or can not have as clients/customers.
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Dominican Republic589 Posts
On October 20 2015 19:47 sumsaR wrote: Stop being fucking silly kespa. What's next, contact their ISPs to demand they turn their internet access off so they can't play games?
lol
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Kespa is not a private corporation; it is a government agency, especifically, it is a part of the State Administration.
So, if they order or request a private corporation to prohibit someone for use their services (which is the case):
1.- Kespa should have that prerrogative: by an explicit act (Congress act, specifically, not government regulation of any sort), stated previously to the misdemeanor.
2.- If they lack legal authorisation, they should occur to the nearest Court, to get the order from the judge.
Why is that? Because otherwise, Kespa will be infinging the following fundamental rights (or human rights):
1.- Afreeca's right to freely do business (economic liberty), that comprehends the capacity of giving his own terms of use, as long as they respect the law. And mainly, the liberty of selling any kind of goods and services to any individual, regardless of his gender, race, etc.
2.- Accused's right to not be punished twice for the same facts (non bis in idem). So, if the law says that a given crime will get a determinate punishment, the State can't add another negative consequence to that unless is the law that allows it (which is the case of accesory sentences like, in addition to jail time, prohibition of exerting a given activity).
3.- Administration's principle of legality, that is, basically, the submission of all the public organs to the law. Anything that the Adminsitration does or don't do should be stated previously in the law, and they can't do anything past the law. This is a guarantee to the particulars at the same time it is a limit to the State.
well, that's it (sorry for my bad english, i'm a lawyer in my origin country and I lack the specific terms for some words in English)
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I started to watch starcraft1 since 2002 when I was in elementary school and when I was in high school, I became a fan of Wemade Fox. I used to went to esports stadiums for watch their live playing and had so much fun with it that is almost like I grew up with it.
Everyone already know about this, But after Match fixing scandal 2010 happened, well, everything changed. My favorite team was gone and lots of teams were also gone. Many players retired, sponsors were gone, one of TV broadcasting channel was gone.. Yeap. I disappointed and I stopped to watch game for a while.
I heard that those match fixers now streaming on the internet and they got a-lot-of money than other ex-progamers who lost jobs because of someone's greed.. This might be the reason I started to hate them. But sad thing was, nobody could stop them. Cuz it's not illegal, and they seems like they does not care about everything what they've done. The phrase that one of them said was, 'oh we didn't get that much money from it, so please forgive us' something like that. And you guys should know that one was the top gamer who earn 10 times more then others.
After starcraft 2 came out, seems like everything started to get better. Big leagues held around the world and new teams were came out. I was having a little hope that maybe my favorite players can play on the stage again. But now these thing happened again, and we should start to think from basic. We have bad example from few years ago. Someone did match fixing, and they kicked out of progaming scene. but they use their name value from Starcraft and earn extreme money than others who were honest. Then, Does others who need money can do it, too? Well why not? It's that easy. Soon everything gonna break down if nobody stop those match fixers earning money from Starcraft. I support KESPA and also I wish Blizzard make a move for this, too. For their game, and for the fans like me
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On October 20 2015 18:59 Ragnarork wrote: This is completely uncalled for. They are banned from pro-gaming. That's enough. they won't be able to ever do that again. That's the point.
Now if they want to stream, and they still got fans after being convicted, that is because they're doing something right, be it skill-wise or entertainment-wise, something that appeal to these fans, and they deserve to keep these fans and w/e money they can make out of that stream. This is bullshit, seriously...
Heh, well I know the precedence here is bad. But I know there have been certain cyber crime cases, they can sentence you not even touch a computer.
Maybe that's that's where Kespa will go with next if they falter. Lobby to make convictions for these type of crimes include a part where they're not allowed to play online games again. Although that probably wouldnt be retroactive...
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On October 20 2015 20:04 Apoteosis wrote: Kespa is not a private corporation; it is a government agency, especifically, it is a part of the State Administration.
So, if they order or request a private corporation to prohibit someone for use their services (which is the case):
1.- Kespa should have that prerrogative: by an explicit act (Congress act, specifically, not government regulation of any sort), stated previously to the misdemeanor.
2.- If they lack legal authorisation, they should occur to the nearest Court, to get the order from the judge.
Why is that? Because otherwise, Kespa will be infinging the following fundamental rights (or human rights):
1.- Afreeca's right to freely do business (economic liberty), that comprehends the capacity of giving his own terms of use, as long as they respect the law. And mainly, the liberty of selling any kind of goods and services to any individual, regardless of his gender, race, etc.
2.- Accused's right to not be punished twice for the same facts (non bis in idem). So, if the law says that a given crime will get a determinate punishment, the State can't add another negative consequence to that unless is the law that allows it (which is the case of accesory sentences like, in addition to jail time, prohibition of exerting a given activity).
3.- Administration's principle of legality, that is, basically, the submission of all the public organs to the law. Anything that the Adminsitration does or don't do should be stated previously in the law, and they can't do anything past the law. This is a guarantee to the particulars at the same time it is a limit to the State.
well, that's it (sorry for my bad english, i'm a lawyer in my origin country and I lack the specific terms for some words in English)
Thanks, this is a really good post. Much better than when us laymen are trying to comprehend the law behind.
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On October 20 2015 19:47 sumsaR wrote: Stop being fucking silly kespa. What's next, contact their ISPs to demand they turn their internet access off so they can't play games?
That's not enough, they could still play the game with friends, so everybody who is seen with a matchfixer needs their internet access turned off too.
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On October 20 2015 19:47 sumsaR wrote: Stop being fucking silly kespa. What's next, contact their ISPs to demand they turn their internet access off so they can't play games? The biggest providers in South Korea do sponsor KeSPA teams, you know.
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On October 20 2015 18:30 Rekrul wrote: kespa should ban more than 3% of the matchfixers from their own leagues before they make these demands
You will never clean out matrchfixing. Making 5k$ or more with just one match losing is more money, then most progamers make in month or even a year! All B-Teamers waste their youth and education for gaming each day all day without a real payment and no chance of earning money via gaming in a top heavy industry which pays pros alot + alot for the first place. Yes alot of Pros, B-Teamer or not, will not matchfix anytime in their carrier, but not all will have this high moral standards. The scene builds on matchfixing in the moment, as this is one of the only chances to gain atleast a bit of revenue from your investet youth if you are not a top of the top players. This anti matchfixing campaign was only focused on prime team, there will be much more and below the water they didnt find. If you are working intelligent and nobody involved starts talking (gets even more greedy and takes the money kespa offers for talking about matchfixing) you wount find out.
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On October 20 2015 20:04 Apoteosis wrote: Kespa is not a private corporation; it is a government agency, especifically, it is a part of the State Administration.
So, if they order or request a private corporation to prohibit someone for use their services (which is the case):
1.- Kespa should have that prerrogative: by an explicit act (Congress act, specifically, not government regulation of any sort), stated previously to the misdemeanor.
2.- If they lack legal authorisation, they should occur to the nearest Court, to get the order from the judge.
Why is that? Because otherwise, Kespa will be infinging the following fundamental rights (or human rights):
1.- Afreeca's right to freely do business (economic liberty), that comprehends the capacity of giving his own terms of use, as long as they respect the law. And mainly, the liberty of selling any kind of goods and services to any individual, regardless of his gender, race, etc.
2.- Accused's right to not be punished twice for the same facts (non bis in idem). So, if the law says that a given crime will get a determinate punishment, the State can't add another negative consequence to that unless is the law that allows it (which is the case of accesory sentences like, in addition to jail time, prohibition of exerting a given activity).
3.- Administration's principle of legality, that is, basically, the submission of all the public organs to the law. Anything that the Adminsitration does or don't do should be stated previously in the law, and they can't do anything past the law. This is a guarantee to the particulars at the same time it is a limit to the State.
well, that's it (sorry for my bad english, i'm a lawyer in my origin country and I lack the specific terms for some words in English) You say that "if they order or request" but your points seem to more indicate this is the rules that would be valid if Kespa ordered and not requested. I find it very peculiar Kespa would violate Afreecas right to freely do business by requesting them to ban the matchfixers. To me that sounds like I would be infringing someones right of speach if I asked them to stop talking, maybe thats because I don't know the laws behind this but to me this sounds silly.
I also believe you contradrict yourself, you state Afreeca has a right to freely do business (in my country that also entails choosing to not sell a service to anyone they wish, not just who to sell to but also who not to sell to) but also say that if Afreeca bans them then they break the legality principle of "non bis in idem".
All you say sounds valid if Kespa tries to force the issue against Afreecas will and without Blizzard backing but if Afreeca agrees to ban B4 and Yoda then they the right to do that right? Since they have a right to choose who get to use their service.
The statement that Afreeca refuses (even though not translated atm) seems to only be about the bw matchfixers we don't know their stance with Yoda and B4.
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Let's ban them from watching StarCraft on TV or hell even using the subway or whatever they use if they want to watch a game live.. This is ridiculous, they're banned from playing official matches already, for life and that's enough..
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On October 20 2015 21:33 Firkraag8 wrote: Let's ban them from watching StarCraft on TV or hell even using the subway or whatever they use if they want to watch a game live.. This is ridiculous, they're banned from playing official matches already, for life and that's enough.. It's not about them watching streams for fun, it's about them streaming for money?
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France9034 Posts
On October 20 2015 21:55 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 21:33 Firkraag8 wrote: Let's ban them from watching StarCraft on TV or hell even using the subway or whatever they use if they want to watch a game live.. This is ridiculous, they're banned from playing official matches already, for life and that's enough.. It's not about them watching streams for fun, it's about them streaming for money?
Which is, exactly like what he says, something completely unrelated to KeSPA and pro-gaming, so why the fuck?
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China6280 Posts
As much as I want to shut those people out of gaming entirely, this is not Kespa's ground to rule.
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edit: i think my post fits better in the other thread, my bad
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hard to choose the wise decision here. On one hand if they ban for life, we might see less player matchfixing. (even if the public lynchage seem's enough AKA loosing all your friends, reputation etc...) On the other hand, some say it's when you do a mistake that your learn.
Here guys it what we call a dilemma.
What is the best solution?
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On October 20 2015 12:15 Waxangel wrote: It's totally enforceable if they get Blizzard to tell Afreeca to kill those streams.
You remember that time like six years ago, when KeSPA tried to argue that broadcast rights belonged to anyone BUT the developer of the game? Remember how that shit ended? Yup, it was settled out of court, with no official ruling. There's still no legal precedence, only vaguely agreed upon rules of conduct between a broadcaster and a developer.
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Blizzard and KeSPA should just boycott afreeca in whatever way they can. Afreeca is free to pull that shit, but blizzard and KeSPA should do everything in their power to get Starcraft out of this garbage, including choosing other streaming services for anything they do, or they may just bury the game on their own.
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On October 20 2015 13:13 BreAKerTV wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 13:04 ShambhalaWar wrote: I completely disagree with this.
What does streaming video games have to do with match-fixing?
How will banning someone from streaming in ANY WAY prevent future match-fixing?
It won't. They want to completely eradicate anyone who may have participated in match-fixing. I think in this case they are banning those guys from the Brood War match-fixing to make an example of them and the match-fixers caught yesterday. This is KeSPA coming out and saying, "We will destroy your legacy. Now when people think of you, they will only think of the terrible thing that you did. They won't think of you streaming the other day, they'll think of how you threw games for money." Personally, in some ways, I really do think this is going too far.
It's abusing power for vengeance, nothing more.
As if jail time isn't enough punishment.
Just to restate my perspective, I'm completely against it.
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I think what many people are missing is that Kespa isn't breaking any law - they can't enforce anything outside their org, true, and they are asking for cooperation. Seeing that Afreeca said no, it is entirely up to them if they want to appeal to blizzard or try and create public uproar, or threaten to withdraw their players from GSL if afreeca doesn't comply. They are not breaking any laws by doing that.
And I fully support Kespa for this move, both to discourage more players from being involved in match fixing and to punish those who participated. The very definition of being "PRO" is "paid to participate in a sport or activity" according to merriam and webster dictionary. According to that, those afreeca streamers are pros in their own right, and I don't think those who have been proven to be not deserving of the name "pro" to be in the industry anymore. Also, as far as I know, many korean esports fans despise them too(well, most people in sc and sc2 gallery in dcinside, pgr, inven and fomos, most prominent of korean esports websites) and don't want to see those matchfixers from earning any income from sports they defiled.
About the scale of the ban, I am okay with them as long as they don't gain any income from playing eSports; I am okay with them playing with their friends, okay even with them streaming as long as they don't get any money - which is not the case on Afreeca streamers.
There are also precedence in other sports match fixing in korea where people who matchfixed are banned in other related organizations too- Park hyun-jun, a baseball player banned for matchfixing in 2012 couldn't get to other leagues such as MLB, NPB or CPBL(taiwan league), and was working in his father's pub until recently, when he went to Dominica to play baseball - apparently they don't have agreements with KBO - but nothing stops them from asking dominicans to ban him(although it is up to them whether to accept or not) Choi-sung kuk, biggest name on soccer match fixing, is working in a hospital(cashier, I think) now because he couldn't get to any other leagues that are registered in FIFA(I saw an article that he was trying to go to marcedonian league, but couldn't because KFA appealed to FIFA to block).
So, conclusion? 1. It is entirely within Kespa's rights to ask for bans from other organizations, and use whatever tools in their shed to let their will known. 2. If it goes to public opinion in Korea, it is most likely that kespa's stance will be supported. 3. There is precedence of other known matchfixers who are effectively blocked from playing for money in the industry
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On October 20 2015 23:11 Big J wrote: Blizzard and KeSPA should just boycott afreeca in whatever way they can. Afreeca is free to pull that shit, but blizzard and KeSPA should do everything in their power to get Starcraft out of this garbage, including choosing other streaming services for anything they do, or they may just bury the game on their own.
You should read the op again, I'm not sure you understood what's happening.
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On October 20 2015 23:15 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 23:11 Big J wrote: Blizzard and KeSPA should just boycott afreeca in whatever way they can. Afreeca is free to pull that shit, but blizzard and KeSPA should do everything in their power to get Starcraft out of this garbage, including choosing other streaming services for anything they do, or they may just bury the game on their own. You should read the op again, I'm not sure you understood what's happening. I'm pretty sure I understood. And as I see it, afreeca is free to not cooperate with a friendly request. But KeSPA and blizzard are also free to use whatever power they have to keep Starcraft and its players away from afreeca. And I think they should use that power under these circumstances.
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Czech Republic12116 Posts
On October 20 2015 23:14 ybjoony wrote: I think what many people are missing is that Kespa isn't breaking any law - they can't enforce anything outside their org, true, and they are asking for cooperation. Seeing that Afreeca said no, it is entirely up to them if they want to appeal to blizzard or try and create public uproar, or threaten to withdraw their players from GSL if afreeca doesn't comply. They are not breaking any laws by doing that.
And I fully support Kespa for this move, both to discourage more players from being involved in match fixing and to punish those who participated. The very definition of being "PRO" is "paid to participate in a sport or activity" according to merriam and webster dictionary. According to that, those afreeca streamers are pros in their own right, and I don't think those who have been proven to be not deserving of the name "pro" to be in the industry anymore. Also, as far as I know, many korean esports fans despise them too(well, most people in sc and sc2 gallery in dcinside, pgr, inven and fomos, most prominent of korean esports websites) and don't want to see those matchfixers from earning any income from sports they defiled.
About the scale of the ban, I am okay with them as long as they don't gain any income from playing eSports; I am okay with them playing with their friends, okay even with them streaming as long as they don't get any money - which is not the case on Afreeca streamers.
There are also precedence in other sports match fixing in korea where people who matchfixed are banned in other related organizations too- Park hyun-jun, a baseball player banned for matchfixing in 2012 couldn't get to other leagues such as MLB, NPB or CPBL(taiwan league), and was working in his father's pub until recently, when he went to Dominica to play baseball - apparently they don't have agreements with KBO - but nothing stops them from asking dominicans to ban him(although it is up to them whether to accept or not) Choi-sung kuk, biggest name on soccer match fixing, is working in a hospital(cashier, I think) now because he couldn't get to any other leagues that are registered in FIFA(I saw an article that he was trying to go to marcedonian league, but couldn't because KFA appealed to FIFA to block).
So, conclusion? 1. It is entirely within Kespa's rights to ask for bans from other organizations, and use whatever tools in their shed to let their will known. 2. If it goes to public opinion in Korea, it is most likely that kespa's stance will be supported. 3. There is precedence of other known matchfixers who are effectively blocked from playing for money in the industry Your examples are invalid. E-sport != sport. The streaming platform makes a huge difference. They are effectively blocked from playing for money. If the players who you named could stream their activities for so much money they would.
Also in sport you have a salary. They had nothing. Maybe we want to start treating players a little bit better before we start destroying their lives with harsh punishments...
Edit> It's pathetic to me. We know that teams treat players like slaves and yet we want players to behave like a full payed pro... WTF?! Am I the only one who sees an error here?
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On October 20 2015 21:59 Ragnarork wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 21:55 Elentos wrote:On October 20 2015 21:33 Firkraag8 wrote: Let's ban them from watching StarCraft on TV or hell even using the subway or whatever they use if they want to watch a game live.. This is ridiculous, they're banned from playing official matches already, for life and that's enough.. It's not about them watching streams for fun, it's about them streaming for money? Which is, exactly like what he says, something completely unrelated to KeSPA and pro-gaming, so why the fuck? People who severely damaged the scene, as well as the integrity of the game, being allowed to make a living by streaming that exact game. How is that fine?
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On October 20 2015 23:25 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 23:14 ybjoony wrote: I think what many people are missing is that Kespa isn't breaking any law - they can't enforce anything outside their org, true, and they are asking for cooperation. Seeing that Afreeca said no, it is entirely up to them if they want to appeal to blizzard or try and create public uproar, or threaten to withdraw their players from GSL if afreeca doesn't comply. They are not breaking any laws by doing that.
And I fully support Kespa for this move, both to discourage more players from being involved in match fixing and to punish those who participated. The very definition of being "PRO" is "paid to participate in a sport or activity" according to merriam and webster dictionary. According to that, those afreeca streamers are pros in their own right, and I don't think those who have been proven to be not deserving of the name "pro" to be in the industry anymore. Also, as far as I know, many korean esports fans despise them too(well, most people in sc and sc2 gallery in dcinside, pgr, inven and fomos, most prominent of korean esports websites) and don't want to see those matchfixers from earning any income from sports they defiled.
About the scale of the ban, I am okay with them as long as they don't gain any income from playing eSports; I am okay with them playing with their friends, okay even with them streaming as long as they don't get any money - which is not the case on Afreeca streamers.
There are also precedence in other sports match fixing in korea where people who matchfixed are banned in other related organizations too- Park hyun-jun, a baseball player banned for matchfixing in 2012 couldn't get to other leagues such as MLB, NPB or CPBL(taiwan league), and was working in his father's pub until recently, when he went to Dominica to play baseball - apparently they don't have agreements with KBO - but nothing stops them from asking dominicans to ban him(although it is up to them whether to accept or not) Choi-sung kuk, biggest name on soccer match fixing, is working in a hospital(cashier, I think) now because he couldn't get to any other leagues that are registered in FIFA(I saw an article that he was trying to go to marcedonian league, but couldn't because KFA appealed to FIFA to block).
So, conclusion? 1. It is entirely within Kespa's rights to ask for bans from other organizations, and use whatever tools in their shed to let their will known. 2. If it goes to public opinion in Korea, it is most likely that kespa's stance will be supported. 3. There is precedence of other known matchfixers who are effectively blocked from playing for money in the industry Your examples are invalid. E-sport != sport. The streaming platform makes a huge difference. They are effectively blocked from playing for money. If the players who you named could stream their activities for so much money they would. Also in sport you have a salary. They had nothing. Maybe we want to start treating players a little bit better before we start destroying their lives with harsh punishments... Edit> It's pathetic to me. We know that teams treat players like slaves and yet we want players to behave like a full payed pro... WTF?! Am I the only one who sees an error here?
Esports industry as a whole is trying to fit into sports scene. One aspect of that is their participation in national sports competition(jeon-guk chejeon, 전국체전 in korean) - so it is your stance that is apart from what these people are trying to achieve.
Also, they do have salaries, although I acknowledge that it is meagre amount - and the treatment of the players leaves a lot to be desired. However, it is not okay for players to resort to illegitimate means to better their income. Korean esports scene already lost one chance in establishing player union when savior matchfixing happened, which arguably led to this state, and now, it is hard to argue for better treatments when the scene is much smaller compared to what we used to have in BW days. And you seem to be forgetting an important point : those progamers who are slaved away as you so eloquently put it are in there because they chose to. They stay in there because they chose to do so, not because they are forced against their will to play - you can always quit and try your chances elsewhere. General player treatment in minors or B-teams are pretty pathetic - just look at MLB, established league for more than hundred years, yet how much they pay their minor leaguers? http://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/03/minor-leaguers-working-poor-lawsuit-mlb-bud-selig According to this article, from $600 to $1500 a month in 5 month season, not including housing, food in home games or supplies - like bats and gloves(which, all are provided to B-teamers, including public keyboard, computer and mouse)
P.S Prime was much worse than that, I know, but we are talking about general proscene here.
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On October 20 2015 23:14 ybjoony wrote:I Show nested quote + think what many people are missing is that Kespa isn't breaking any law - they can't enforce anything outside their org, true, and they are asking for cooperation. Seeing that Afreeca said no, it is entirely up to them if they want to appeal to blizzard or try and create public uproar, or threaten to withdraw their players from GSL if afreeca doesn't comply. They are not breaking any laws by doing that.
And I fully support Kespa for this move, both to discourage more players from being involved in match fixing and to punish those who participated. The very definition of being "PRO" is "paid to participate in a sport or activity" according to merriam and webster dictionary. According to that, those afreeca streamers are pros in their own right, and I don't think those who have been proven to be not deserving of the name "pro" to be in the industry anymore. Also, as far as I know, many korean esports fans despise them too(well, most people in sc and sc2 gallery in dcinside, pgr, inven and fomos, most prominent of korean esports websites) and don't want to see those matchfixers from earning any income from sports they defiled.
About the scale of the ban, I am okay with them as long as they don't gain any income from playing eSports; I am okay with them playing with their friends, okay even with them streaming as long as they don't get any money - which is not the case on Afreeca streamers.
There are also precedence in other sports match fixing in korea where people who matchfixed are banned in other related organizations too- Park hyun-jun, a baseball player banned for matchfixing in 2012 couldn't get to other leagues such as MLB, NPB or CPBL(taiwan league), and was working in his father's pub until recently, when he went to Dominica to play baseball - apparently they don't have agreements with KBO - but nothing stops them from asking dominicans to ban him(although it is up to them whether to accept or not) Choi-sung kuk, biggest name on soccer match fixing, is working in a hospital(cashier, I think) now because he couldn't get to any other leagues that are registered in FIFA(I saw an article that he was trying to go to marcedonian league, but couldn't because KFA appealed to FIFA to block).
So, conclusion? 1. It is entirely within Kespa's rights to ask for bans from other organizations, and use whatever tools in their shed to let their will known. 2. If it goes to public opinion in Korea, it is most likely that kespa's stance will be supported. 3. There is precedence of other known matchfixers who are effectively blocked from playing for money in the industry
Being banned in other leagues of professional play for that particular sport is understandable because they are associate with the sport he cheated in, and competing in sports is the same as being a pro-gamer. It is an electronic sport that a programer competes in.
However, being a "streamer" isn't the same as a being a pro-gamer. MC isn't a pro-gamer anymore, he is considered a "professional streamer." While he streams starcraft content nobody considers him a pro-gamer anymore, he is retired. If I make youtube videos and the content is me playing sc2 against other people, that makes me a youtuber and no youtuber is considered a professional gamer (unless they play in professional competition).
I don't think people should be banned from being professional streamers because they cheated at a sport.
sport |spôrt| noun 1 an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment: team sports such as baseball and soccer | (as modifier sports) : a sports center.
An E-sport.
An "professional e-sport" is a game both team play in competition for money, which leaves a slightly blurred line. If you play sc2 on stream, you will most likely be competing against others on ladder. However, nobody you compete against will be earning any money from the competition (unless they are streaming, and then the money is ONLY for their stream content and not for the "competition"). You as the streamer might also earn no money because the vast majority of people that stream on twitch don't get ANY money.
My guess is you would also be fine with him streaming other games like mariokart, but you don't want him streaming sc2?
If he is banned from streaming, they are banning his rights to do any form of streaming, which isn't professional exports. To me this feels more like kespa saying, "Oh you really like the noodles at the stir fry place on the corner, well funny cause I know the owner and guess what your not welcome there." How would you feel if kespa petitioned blizzard to ban his ip from any form of play?
I still think a streamer is a streamer and a programer is a programer. Nobody calls a streamer a programer, unless they actually are in active competition and even then, they aren't "competing" on stream. Pro-gamers stream their practice or a lesson, not competition (Showmatch or Tourny is always put on by someone other than that streamer).
Imo an action like this doesn't prevent or deter anyone from match-fixing, it just strips more personal rights. Also, isn't jail and a lifetime ban enough punishment for fixing 4 or 1 match? Most or all professional athletes that took steroids didn't even go to jail, and they built entire careers off it, like lance armstrong. How much money did he make based off manipulation? Millions more than anyone in this petty scandal, and never went to jail and kept it all.
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On October 20 2015 23:30 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 21:59 Ragnarork wrote:On October 20 2015 21:55 Elentos wrote:On October 20 2015 21:33 Firkraag8 wrote: Let's ban them from watching StarCraft on TV or hell even using the subway or whatever they use if they want to watch a game live.. This is ridiculous, they're banned from playing official matches already, for life and that's enough.. It's not about them watching streams for fun, it's about them streaming for money? Which is, exactly like what he says, something completely unrelated to KeSPA and pro-gaming, so why the fuck? People who severely damaged the scene, as well as the integrity of the game, being allowed to make a living by streaming that exact game. How is that fine?
if they were making a giant tonne of money as Pete Rose was i could see your point. the guys cheating in SC2 are making very little money and are easily influenced by even a small amount of cash.
a minimum wage worker will instantly change jobs as soon as they get a $2/hour raise some place else
an experienced software project manager would laugh in your face if you offered him/her a job for $2/hour more and expected him/her to jump ship based on the raise in pay.
what Pete Rose did was disgusting .. these poor dudes playing and cheating in SC2 competitions for " a living" .. i just feel sorry for them.
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On October 21 2015 00:05 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 23:14 ybjoony wrote:I think what many people are missing is that Kespa isn't breaking any law - they can't enforce anything outside their org, true, and they are asking for cooperation. Seeing that Afreeca said no, it is entirely up to them if they want to appeal to blizzard or try and create public uproar, or threaten to withdraw their players from GSL if afreeca doesn't comply. They are not breaking any laws by doing that.
And I fully support Kespa for this move, both to discourage more players from being involved in match fixing and to punish those who participated. The very definition of being "PRO" is "paid to participate in a sport or activity" according to merriam and webster dictionary. According to that, those afreeca streamers are pros in their own right, and I don't think those who have been proven to be not deserving of the name "pro" to be in the industry anymore. Also, as far as I know, many korean esports fans despise them too(well, most people in sc and sc2 gallery in dcinside, pgr, inven and fomos, most prominent of korean esports websites) and don't want to see those matchfixers from earning any income from sports they defiled.
About the scale of the ban, I am okay with them as long as they don't gain any income from playing eSports; I am okay with them playing with their friends, okay even with them streaming as long as they don't get any money - which is not the case on Afreeca streamers.
There are also precedence in other sports match fixing in korea where people who matchfixed are banned in other related organizations too- Park hyun-jun, a baseball player banned for matchfixing in 2012 couldn't get to other leagues such as MLB, NPB or CPBL(taiwan league), and was working in his father's pub until recently, when he went to Dominica to play baseball - apparently they don't have agreements with KBO - but nothing stops them from asking dominicans to ban him(although it is up to them whether to accept or not) Choi-sung kuk, biggest name on soccer match fixing, is working in a hospital(cashier, I think) now because he couldn't get to any other leagues that are registered in FIFA(I saw an article that he was trying to go to marcedonian league, but couldn't because KFA appealed to FIFA to block).
So, conclusion? 1. It is entirely within Kespa's rights to ask for bans from other organizations, and use whatever tools in their shed to let their will known. 2. If it goes to public opinion in Korea, it is most likely that kespa's stance will be supported. 3. There is precedence of other known matchfixers who are effectively blocked from playing for money in the industry Being banned in other leagues of professional play for that particular sport is understandable because they are associate with the sport he cheated in, and competing in sports is the same as being a pro-gamer. It is an electronic sport that a programer competes in. However, being a "streamer" isn't the same as a being a pro-gamer. MC isn't a pro-gamer anymore, he is considered a "professional streamer." While he streams starcraft content nobody considers him a pro-gamer anymore, he is retired. If I make youtube videos and the content is me playing sc2 against other people, that makes me a youtuber and no youtuber is considered a professional gamer (unless they play in professional competition). I don't think people should be banned from being professional streamers because they cheated at a sport. sport |spôrt| noun 1 an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment: team sports such as baseball and soccer | (as modifier sports) : a sports center. An E-sport. An "professional e-sport" is a game both team play in competition for money, which leaves a slightly blurred line. If you play sc2 on stream, you will most likely be competing against others on ladder. However, nobody you compete against will be earning any money from the competition (unless they are streaming, and then the money is ONLY for their stream content and not for the "competition"). You as the streamer might also earn no money because the vast majority of people that stream on twitch don't get ANY money. My guess is you would also be fine with him streaming other games like mariokart, but you don't want him streaming sc2? If he is banned from streaming, they are banning his rights to do any form of streaming, which isn't professional exports. To me this feels more like kespa saying, "Oh you really like the noodles at the stir fry place on the corner, well funny cause I know the owner and guess what your not welcome there." How would you feel if kespa petitioned blizzard to ban his ip from any form of play? I still think a streamer is a streamer and a programer is a programer. Nobody calls a streamer a programer, unless they actually are in active competition and even then, they aren't "competing" on stream. Pro-gamers stream their practice or a lesson, not competition (Showmatch or Tourny is always put on by someone other than that streamer). Imo an action like this doesn't prevent or deter anyone from match-fixing, it just strips more personal rights. Also, isn't jail and a lifetime ban enough punishment for fixing 4 or 1 match? Most or all professional athletes that took steroids didn't even go to jail, and they built entire careers off it, like lance armstrong. How much money did he make based off manipulation? Millions more than anyone in this petty scandal, and never went to jail and kept it all.
You are not using the term "professional" properly. If someone uses streaming to make a living she/he is a professional. It's of course debatable when it becomes a hobby that happens to generate a bit of extra cash, but in general if you make money from something that you dedicate a ton of time to you should be considered a professional.
And in sports there is no such discussion because there is no way to just keep on doing your sport and broadcasting it somehow. And if there was, I'm pretty sure that the big (often global) sports associations would try to shut such banned players down too. His point is very valid, KeSPA is basically just trying to close loopholes from official bans.
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On October 20 2015 12:50 Circumstance wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 12:40 c3rberUs wrote: sAviOr hasn't streamed since August and pls no, don't ban HwaSin. Streaming is not professional gaming. It's playing a game at set times for money. In Hearthstone, Kripparian might not be a competitive player, but that game is his profession. When you undermine the integrity of the game in any form, that game cannot be your livelihood. Twitch, Afreeca, et al. are being given a request by Kespa. They, as private organizations, are well within their right to decline, as I understand it (if it's a mandate, they can dispute it if they want). I find nothing unreasonable going on here.
I agree. Kespa can ask, and Afreeca can decline. I have mixed feelings about the issue, because I'm nostalgic for a lot of those players... but they did fuck up big time.
On October 20 2015 21:33 Firkraag8 wrote: Let's ban them from watching StarCraft on TV or hell even using the subway or whatever they use if they want to watch a game live.. This is ridiculous
No, what's ridiculous is your slippery slope fallacy.
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On October 20 2015 23:23 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 23:15 ShambhalaWar wrote:On October 20 2015 23:11 Big J wrote: Blizzard and KeSPA should just boycott afreeca in whatever way they can. Afreeca is free to pull that shit, but blizzard and KeSPA should do everything in their power to get Starcraft out of this garbage, including choosing other streaming services for anything they do, or they may just bury the game on their own. You should read the op again, I'm not sure you understood what's happening. I'm pretty sure I understood. And as I see it, afreeca is free to not cooperate with a friendly request. But KeSPA and blizzard are also free to use whatever power they have to keep Starcraft and its players away from afreeca. And I think they should use that power under these circumstances.
Maybe I misunderstood I think the op changed since I last looked at it, but I thought it was only kespa petitioning and not blizzard.
I also think blizzard changing streaming platforms is not a good idea. That would be hurting twitch or afreeca because of what these other people did, which sounds crazy to me. None of this sounds like friendly request to me.
More importantly, how does that keep people from match-fixing?
If harsh punishment was correlated to less crimes committed, the USA would be the most crime free country in the world.
It doesn't work.
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Czech Republic12116 Posts
On October 20 2015 23:53 ybjoony wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 23:25 deacon.frost wrote:On October 20 2015 23:14 ybjoony wrote: I think what many people are missing is that Kespa isn't breaking any law - they can't enforce anything outside their org, true, and they are asking for cooperation. Seeing that Afreeca said no, it is entirely up to them if they want to appeal to blizzard or try and create public uproar, or threaten to withdraw their players from GSL if afreeca doesn't comply. They are not breaking any laws by doing that.
And I fully support Kespa for this move, both to discourage more players from being involved in match fixing and to punish those who participated. The very definition of being "PRO" is "paid to participate in a sport or activity" according to merriam and webster dictionary. According to that, those afreeca streamers are pros in their own right, and I don't think those who have been proven to be not deserving of the name "pro" to be in the industry anymore. Also, as far as I know, many korean esports fans despise them too(well, most people in sc and sc2 gallery in dcinside, pgr, inven and fomos, most prominent of korean esports websites) and don't want to see those matchfixers from earning any income from sports they defiled.
About the scale of the ban, I am okay with them as long as they don't gain any income from playing eSports; I am okay with them playing with their friends, okay even with them streaming as long as they don't get any money - which is not the case on Afreeca streamers.
There are also precedence in other sports match fixing in korea where people who matchfixed are banned in other related organizations too- Park hyun-jun, a baseball player banned for matchfixing in 2012 couldn't get to other leagues such as MLB, NPB or CPBL(taiwan league), and was working in his father's pub until recently, when he went to Dominica to play baseball - apparently they don't have agreements with KBO - but nothing stops them from asking dominicans to ban him(although it is up to them whether to accept or not) Choi-sung kuk, biggest name on soccer match fixing, is working in a hospital(cashier, I think) now because he couldn't get to any other leagues that are registered in FIFA(I saw an article that he was trying to go to marcedonian league, but couldn't because KFA appealed to FIFA to block).
So, conclusion? 1. It is entirely within Kespa's rights to ask for bans from other organizations, and use whatever tools in their shed to let their will known. 2. If it goes to public opinion in Korea, it is most likely that kespa's stance will be supported. 3. There is precedence of other known matchfixers who are effectively blocked from playing for money in the industry Your examples are invalid. E-sport != sport. The streaming platform makes a huge difference. They are effectively blocked from playing for money. If the players who you named could stream their activities for so much money they would. Also in sport you have a salary. They had nothing. Maybe we want to start treating players a little bit better before we start destroying their lives with harsh punishments... Edit> It's pathetic to me. We know that teams treat players like slaves and yet we want players to behave like a full payed pro... WTF?! Am I the only one who sees an error here? Esports industry as a whole is trying to fit into sports scene. One aspect of that is their participation in national sports competition(jeon-guk chejeon, 전국체전 in korean) - so it is your stance that is apart from what these people are trying to achieve. Also, they do have salaries, although I acknowledge that it is meagre amount - and the treatment of the players leaves a lot to be desired. However, it is not okay for players to resort to illegitimate means to better their income. Korean esports scene already lost one chance in establishing player union when savior matchfixing happened, which arguably led to this state, and now, it is hard to argue for better treatments when the scene is much smaller compared to what we used to have in BW days. And you seem to be forgetting an important point : those progamers who are slaved away as you so eloquently put it are in there because they chose to. They stay in there because they chose to do so, not because they are forced against their will to play - you can always quit and try your chances elsewhere. General player treatment in minors or B-teams are pretty pathetic - just look at MLB, established league for more than hundred years, yet how much they pay their minor leaguers? http://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/03/minor-leaguers-working-poor-lawsuit-mlb-bud-selig According to this article, from $600 to $1500 a month in 5 month season, not including housing, food in home games or supplies - like bats and gloves(which, all are provided to B-teamers, including public keyboard, computer and mouse) P.S Prime was much worse than that, I know, but we are talking about general proscene here. NO, we are not. We are talking about Prime. If KeSPA wants harsh punishments but cannot force PRime to pay them money, they are slavers to me as the Prime was. You can say they didn't know - well they are part of them, they are supposed to know.
It is about Prime. Don't start with T1 bullshit, if someone from the A team of T1 wanted to do this their payment from brokers would be much higher because they risk much more! That's the point of salary too.
If KeSPA wants to enforce rules ONLY ON PLAYERS and don't support players in teams... then that's just ... bad.
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On October 21 2015 00:05 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 23:14 ybjoony wrote:I think what many people are missing is that Kespa isn't breaking any law - they can't enforce anything outside their org, true, and they are asking for cooperation. Seeing that Afreeca said no, it is entirely up to them if they want to appeal to blizzard or try and create public uproar, or threaten to withdraw their players from GSL if afreeca doesn't comply. They are not breaking any laws by doing that.
And I fully support Kespa for this move, both to discourage more players from being involved in match fixing and to punish those who participated. The very definition of being "PRO" is "paid to participate in a sport or activity" according to merriam and webster dictionary. According to that, those afreeca streamers are pros in their own right, and I don't think those who have been proven to be not deserving of the name "pro" to be in the industry anymore. Also, as far as I know, many korean esports fans despise them too(well, most people in sc and sc2 gallery in dcinside, pgr, inven and fomos, most prominent of korean esports websites) and don't want to see those matchfixers from earning any income from sports they defiled.
About the scale of the ban, I am okay with them as long as they don't gain any income from playing eSports; I am okay with them playing with their friends, okay even with them streaming as long as they don't get any money - which is not the case on Afreeca streamers.
There are also precedence in other sports match fixing in korea where people who matchfixed are banned in other related organizations too- Park hyun-jun, a baseball player banned for matchfixing in 2012 couldn't get to other leagues such as MLB, NPB or CPBL(taiwan league), and was working in his father's pub until recently, when he went to Dominica to play baseball - apparently they don't have agreements with KBO - but nothing stops them from asking dominicans to ban him(although it is up to them whether to accept or not) Choi-sung kuk, biggest name on soccer match fixing, is working in a hospital(cashier, I think) now because he couldn't get to any other leagues that are registered in FIFA(I saw an article that he was trying to go to marcedonian league, but couldn't because KFA appealed to FIFA to block).
So, conclusion? 1. It is entirely within Kespa's rights to ask for bans from other organizations, and use whatever tools in their shed to let their will known. 2. If it goes to public opinion in Korea, it is most likely that kespa's stance will be supported. 3. There is precedence of other known matchfixers who are effectively blocked from playing for money in the industry Being banned in other leagues of professional play for that particular sport is understandable because they are associate with the sport he cheated in, and competing in sports is the same as being a pro-gamer. It is an electronic sport that a programer competes in. However, being a "streamer" isn't the same as a being a pro-gamer. MC isn't a pro-gamer anymore, he is considered a "professional streamer." While he streams starcraft content nobody considers him a pro-gamer anymore, he is retired. If I make youtube videos and the content is me playing sc2 against other people, that makes me a youtuber and no youtuber is considered a professional gamer (unless they play in professional competition). I don't think people should be banned from being professional streamers because they cheated at a sport. sport |spôrt| noun 1 an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment: team sports such as baseball and soccer | (as modifier sports) : a sports center. An E-sport. An "professional e-sport" is a game both team play in competition for money, which leaves a slightly blurred line. If you play sc2 on stream, you will most likely be competing against others on ladder. However, nobody you compete against will be earning any money from the competition (unless they are streaming, and then the money is ONLY for their stream content and not for the "competition"). You as the streamer might also earn no money because the vast majority of people that stream on twitch don't get ANY money. My guess is you would also be fine with him streaming other games like mariokart, but you don't want him streaming sc2? If he is banned from streaming, they are banning his rights to do any form of streaming, which isn't professional exports. To me this feels more like kespa saying, "Oh you really like the noodles at the stir fry place on the corner, well funny cause I know the owner and guess what your not welcome there." How would you feel if kespa petitioned blizzard to ban his ip from any form of play? I still think a streamer is a streamer and a programer is a programer. Nobody calls a streamer a programer, unless they actually are in active competition and even then, they aren't "competing" on stream. Pro-gamers stream their practice or a lesson, not competition (Showmatch or Tourny is always put on by someone other than that streamer). Imo an action like this doesn't prevent or deter anyone from match-fixing, it just strips more personal rights. Also, isn't jail and a lifetime ban enough punishment for fixing 4 or 1 match? Most or all professional athletes that took steroids didn't even go to jail, and they built entire careers off it, like lance armstrong. How much money did he make based off manipulation? Millions more than anyone in this petty scandal, and never went to jail and kept it all.
Yeah, well, as I said above, my personal stance is that those ex-pros streaming without gaming is fine. I don't agree with that part on Kespa, but I guess it is something they can negotiate on.
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On October 20 2015 18:28 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 18:17 TRaFFiC wrote:On October 20 2015 18:10 deacon.frost wrote:On October 20 2015 18:07 TRaFFiC wrote: I don't know what world some people are living in. More and more pros are coming out and saying match fixers are harassing them daily. This means there are likely more players/coaches/betting people involved. We've just hit the head of the iceberg. We need even more strict measures. Strip them of all salary earned in the past.
I have 0 sympathy for people who do this to sc2. They should never be allowed to make a dime from this game again. Well that's easy, they earned nothing so you can strip nothing from their salaries. That's probably the main reason why they match fixed. Because they don't earn ANYTHING while being "professionals". I don't know, a professional player is someone who is being payed for doing their job. They were not payed, are they still professionals? (well they are, but still...) Even if it's true they earned no salary, all any Korean pro on a kespa team has to do is turn on a webcam 4 hours a day with a donation button and they will make enough donations to eat. Being able to live in a team house and be fed for free is a privilege in itself and one many people would kill for. Salary isn't the only way to make money, but regardless there is no excuse. What they did is worse than cheating. When you earn food and not that good living conditions(though that's applied based on my standards) the entry barrier for corruption is comically low. That's how things work. If you want to stop this you have to give them at least something so you raise the entry barrier
Were all fully aware of the circumstances as well as the elephant in the room. No need for a captain obvious. However that doesnt change the fact that matchfixing is stupid as fuck and shows no honor. If you dont feel like being a progamer anymore then quit. Any regular job will earn you more money. If youre not trying as a progamer then youre essentially just a guy without dreams who plays computer games all day. Its shit that they didnt get salaries, there should be regulations protecting the players, obviously. But there isnt. As shitty as the situation is, ultimately you as a person have a choice.
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On October 21 2015 00:13 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 00:05 ShambhalaWar wrote:On October 20 2015 23:14 ybjoony wrote:I think what many people are missing is that Kespa isn't breaking any law - they can't enforce anything outside their org, true, and they are asking for cooperation. Seeing that Afreeca said no, it is entirely up to them if they want to appeal to blizzard or try and create public uproar, or threaten to withdraw their players from GSL if afreeca doesn't comply. They are not breaking any laws by doing that.
And I fully support Kespa for this move, both to discourage more players from being involved in match fixing and to punish those who participated. The very definition of being "PRO" is "paid to participate in a sport or activity" according to merriam and webster dictionary. According to that, those afreeca streamers are pros in their own right, and I don't think those who have been proven to be not deserving of the name "pro" to be in the industry anymore. Also, as far as I know, many korean esports fans despise them too(well, most people in sc and sc2 gallery in dcinside, pgr, inven and fomos, most prominent of korean esports websites) and don't want to see those matchfixers from earning any income from sports they defiled.
About the scale of the ban, I am okay with them as long as they don't gain any income from playing eSports; I am okay with them playing with their friends, okay even with them streaming as long as they don't get any money - which is not the case on Afreeca streamers.
There are also precedence in other sports match fixing in korea where people who matchfixed are banned in other related organizations too- Park hyun-jun, a baseball player banned for matchfixing in 2012 couldn't get to other leagues such as MLB, NPB or CPBL(taiwan league), and was working in his father's pub until recently, when he went to Dominica to play baseball - apparently they don't have agreements with KBO - but nothing stops them from asking dominicans to ban him(although it is up to them whether to accept or not) Choi-sung kuk, biggest name on soccer match fixing, is working in a hospital(cashier, I think) now because he couldn't get to any other leagues that are registered in FIFA(I saw an article that he was trying to go to marcedonian league, but couldn't because KFA appealed to FIFA to block).
So, conclusion? 1. It is entirely within Kespa's rights to ask for bans from other organizations, and use whatever tools in their shed to let their will known. 2. If it goes to public opinion in Korea, it is most likely that kespa's stance will be supported. 3. There is precedence of other known matchfixers who are effectively blocked from playing for money in the industry Being banned in other leagues of professional play for that particular sport is understandable because they are associate with the sport he cheated in, and competing in sports is the same as being a pro-gamer. It is an electronic sport that a programer competes in. However, being a "streamer" isn't the same as a being a pro-gamer. MC isn't a pro-gamer anymore, he is considered a "professional streamer." While he streams starcraft content nobody considers him a pro-gamer anymore, he is retired. If I make youtube videos and the content is me playing sc2 against other people, that makes me a youtuber and no youtuber is considered a professional gamer (unless they play in professional competition). I don't think people should be banned from being professional streamers because they cheated at a sport. sport |spôrt| noun 1 an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment: team sports such as baseball and soccer | (as modifier sports) : a sports center. An E-sport. An "professional e-sport" is a game both team play in competition for money, which leaves a slightly blurred line. If you play sc2 on stream, you will most likely be competing against others on ladder. However, nobody you compete against will be earning any money from the competition (unless they are streaming, and then the money is ONLY for their stream content and not for the "competition"). You as the streamer might also earn no money because the vast majority of people that stream on twitch don't get ANY money. My guess is you would also be fine with him streaming other games like mariokart, but you don't want him streaming sc2? If he is banned from streaming, they are banning his rights to do any form of streaming, which isn't professional exports. To me this feels more like kespa saying, "Oh you really like the noodles at the stir fry place on the corner, well funny cause I know the owner and guess what your not welcome there." How would you feel if kespa petitioned blizzard to ban his ip from any form of play? I still think a streamer is a streamer and a programer is a programer. Nobody calls a streamer a programer, unless they actually are in active competition and even then, they aren't "competing" on stream. Pro-gamers stream their practice or a lesson, not competition (Showmatch or Tourny is always put on by someone other than that streamer). Imo an action like this doesn't prevent or deter anyone from match-fixing, it just strips more personal rights. Also, isn't jail and a lifetime ban enough punishment for fixing 4 or 1 match? Most or all professional athletes that took steroids didn't even go to jail, and they built entire careers off it, like lance armstrong. How much money did he make based off manipulation? Millions more than anyone in this petty scandal, and never went to jail and kept it all. You are not using the term "professional" properly. If someone uses streaming to make a living she/he is a professional. It's of course debatable when it becomes a hobby that happens to generate a bit of extra cash, but in general if you make money from something that you dedicate a ton of time to you should be considered a professional. And in sports there is no such discussion because there is no way to just keep on doing your sport and broadcasting it somehow. And if there was, I'm pretty sure that the big (often global) sports associations would try to shut such banned players down too. His point is very valid, KeSPA is basically just trying to close loopholes from official bans. I don't understand your point based on what you wrote. Can you explain it again?
My point is not about what is "professional," (would you call a homeless person on the street begging a professional?) but that a streamer and a competitive esport player are two different things. By your logic a player earning money on a stream is a "professional streamer." I would say a professional esport player is required to actually compete in the professional scene, other wise he or she is just a streamer.
Also, that you shouldn't ban a from something related.
Ban him from the sport, fine, but don't ban him from streaming because it's not the same thing (even if he is streaming the game). Just as if the NFL banned a player for cheating, he has every right to coach an amateur team not in that league, and it would be up to the owner of that team if they wanted to hire a cheating player as their coach. For the NFL to try and ban him from doing that if both parties wanted it is an over extension, even if you claim "I'm just protecting the integrity of the NFL."
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Czech Republic12116 Posts
On October 21 2015 00:28 NEEDZMOAR wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 18:28 deacon.frost wrote:On October 20 2015 18:17 TRaFFiC wrote:On October 20 2015 18:10 deacon.frost wrote:On October 20 2015 18:07 TRaFFiC wrote: I don't know what world some people are living in. More and more pros are coming out and saying match fixers are harassing them daily. This means there are likely more players/coaches/betting people involved. We've just hit the head of the iceberg. We need even more strict measures. Strip them of all salary earned in the past.
I have 0 sympathy for people who do this to sc2. They should never be allowed to make a dime from this game again. Well that's easy, they earned nothing so you can strip nothing from their salaries. That's probably the main reason why they match fixed. Because they don't earn ANYTHING while being "professionals". I don't know, a professional player is someone who is being payed for doing their job. They were not payed, are they still professionals? (well they are, but still...) Even if it's true they earned no salary, all any Korean pro on a kespa team has to do is turn on a webcam 4 hours a day with a donation button and they will make enough donations to eat. Being able to live in a team house and be fed for free is a privilege in itself and one many people would kill for. Salary isn't the only way to make money, but regardless there is no excuse. What they did is worse than cheating. When you earn food and not that good living conditions(though that's applied based on my standards) the entry barrier for corruption is comically low. That's how things work. If you want to stop this you have to give them at least something so you raise the entry barrier Were all fully aware of the circumstances as well as the elephant in the room. No need for a captain obvious. However that doesnt change the fact that matchfixing is stupid as fuck and shows no honor. If you dont feel like being a progamer anymore then quit. Any regular job will earn you more money. If youre not trying as a progamer then youre essentially just a guy without dreams who plays computer games all day. Its shit that they didnt get salaries, there should be regulations protecting the players, obviously. But there isnt. As shitty as the situation is, ultimately you as a person have a choice. You know - this is a perfect opportunity do gain something positive from this SHTF situation. For example KeSPA could start caring about players and their conditions in teams under KeSPA so they don't have the temptation to do some dark stuff like this. A positive motivation is works better than negative one (that's a fact actually, there are studies that support this, most known are from Dan Ariely)
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On October 21 2015 00:18 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 23:23 Big J wrote:On October 20 2015 23:15 ShambhalaWar wrote:On October 20 2015 23:11 Big J wrote: Blizzard and KeSPA should just boycott afreeca in whatever way they can. Afreeca is free to pull that shit, but blizzard and KeSPA should do everything in their power to get Starcraft out of this garbage, including choosing other streaming services for anything they do, or they may just bury the game on their own. You should read the op again, I'm not sure you understood what's happening. I'm pretty sure I understood. And as I see it, afreeca is free to not cooperate with a friendly request. But KeSPA and blizzard are also free to use whatever power they have to keep Starcraft and its players away from afreeca. And I think they should use that power under these circumstances. Maybe I misunderstood I think the op changed since I last looked at it, but I thought it was only kespa petitioning and not blizzard. I also think blizzard changing streaming platforms is not a good idea. That would be hurting twitch or afreeca because of what these other people did, which sounds crazy to me. None of this sounds like friendly request to me. More importantly, how does that keep people from match-fixing? If harsh punishment was correlated to less crimes committed, the USA would be the most crime free country in the world. It doesn't work.
In general law enforcement is one of the big controls when it comes to such crimes as many studies have shown. And law enforcement is the actual application of punishment, not the theoretical existance. You can usually overdo law enforcment causing more (actual and social) costs than you generate gain from it, but in this case we are talking about people who commited crimes because their profession didn't pay well enough. Banning them from that profession may actually help them getting their life together and net an extra benefit. (while for example you don't want to ban someone from his job because he did drugs, since that draws such a person even deeper into depressions that he may want to fight with drugs, and also might lead to acquisitive crimes --> higher social costs)
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Czech Republic12116 Posts
On October 21 2015 00:43 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 00:18 ShambhalaWar wrote:On October 20 2015 23:23 Big J wrote:On October 20 2015 23:15 ShambhalaWar wrote:On October 20 2015 23:11 Big J wrote: Blizzard and KeSPA should just boycott afreeca in whatever way they can. Afreeca is free to pull that shit, but blizzard and KeSPA should do everything in their power to get Starcraft out of this garbage, including choosing other streaming services for anything they do, or they may just bury the game on their own. You should read the op again, I'm not sure you understood what's happening. I'm pretty sure I understood. And as I see it, afreeca is free to not cooperate with a friendly request. But KeSPA and blizzard are also free to use whatever power they have to keep Starcraft and its players away from afreeca. And I think they should use that power under these circumstances. Maybe I misunderstood I think the op changed since I last looked at it, but I thought it was only kespa petitioning and not blizzard. I also think blizzard changing streaming platforms is not a good idea. That would be hurting twitch or afreeca because of what these other people did, which sounds crazy to me. None of this sounds like friendly request to me. More importantly, how does that keep people from match-fixing? If harsh punishment was correlated to less crimes committed, the USA would be the most crime free country in the world. It doesn't work. In general law enforcement is one of the big controls when it comes to such crimes as many studies have shown. And law enforcement is the actual application of punishment, not the theoretical existance. You can usually overdo law enforcment causing more (actual and social) costs than you generate gain from it, but in this case we are talking about people who commited crimes because their profession didn't pay well enough. Banning them from that profession may actually help them getting their life together and net an extra benefit. (while for example you don't want to ban someone from his job because he did drugs, since that draws such a person even deeper into depressions that he may want to fight with drugs, and also might lead to acquisitive crimes --> higher social costs) We are also talking about people who don't have proper education and don't have a money pillow to get one. And who have their army service in the future.
If they want to get them their shit together, give them their military service now as a part of their punishment. They won't stream, they will rethink their lives and probably get their shit together. Simple, nice, elegant.
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51133 Posts
On October 21 2015 00:48 deacon.frost wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 00:43 Big J wrote:On October 21 2015 00:18 ShambhalaWar wrote:On October 20 2015 23:23 Big J wrote:On October 20 2015 23:15 ShambhalaWar wrote:On October 20 2015 23:11 Big J wrote: Blizzard and KeSPA should just boycott afreeca in whatever way they can. Afreeca is free to pull that shit, but blizzard and KeSPA should do everything in their power to get Starcraft out of this garbage, including choosing other streaming services for anything they do, or they may just bury the game on their own. You should read the op again, I'm not sure you understood what's happening. I'm pretty sure I understood. And as I see it, afreeca is free to not cooperate with a friendly request. But KeSPA and blizzard are also free to use whatever power they have to keep Starcraft and its players away from afreeca. And I think they should use that power under these circumstances. Maybe I misunderstood I think the op changed since I last looked at it, but I thought it was only kespa petitioning and not blizzard. I also think blizzard changing streaming platforms is not a good idea. That would be hurting twitch or afreeca because of what these other people did, which sounds crazy to me. None of this sounds like friendly request to me. More importantly, how does that keep people from match-fixing? If harsh punishment was correlated to less crimes committed, the USA would be the most crime free country in the world. It doesn't work. In general law enforcement is one of the big controls when it comes to such crimes as many studies have shown. And law enforcement is the actual application of punishment, not the theoretical existance. You can usually overdo law enforcment causing more (actual and social) costs than you generate gain from it, but in this case we are talking about people who commited crimes because their profession didn't pay well enough. Banning them from that profession may actually help them getting their life together and net an extra benefit. (while for example you don't want to ban someone from his job because he did drugs, since that draws such a person even deeper into depressions that he may want to fight with drugs, and also might lead to acquisitive crimes --> higher social costs) We are also talking about people who don't have proper education and don't have a money pillow to get one. And who have their army service in the future. If they want to get them their shit together, give them their military service now as a part of their punishment. They won't stream, they will rethink their lives and probably get their shit together. Simple, nice, elegant.
Er, thats what actually happened. Most of the people indicted in the first match fixing scandal (except Savior, probably cause of his dodgy knees) went straight into military service in order to move on from what they did.
Don't be surprised if you hear of Yoda enlisting in the military ASAP as well as making some sort of sob post on Cyworld. As for Gerrard and B4 who have probably been to the military already, meh, who cares about them.
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Czech Republic12116 Posts
On October 21 2015 00:51 GTR wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 00:48 deacon.frost wrote:On October 21 2015 00:43 Big J wrote:On October 21 2015 00:18 ShambhalaWar wrote:On October 20 2015 23:23 Big J wrote:On October 20 2015 23:15 ShambhalaWar wrote:On October 20 2015 23:11 Big J wrote: Blizzard and KeSPA should just boycott afreeca in whatever way they can. Afreeca is free to pull that shit, but blizzard and KeSPA should do everything in their power to get Starcraft out of this garbage, including choosing other streaming services for anything they do, or they may just bury the game on their own. You should read the op again, I'm not sure you understood what's happening. I'm pretty sure I understood. And as I see it, afreeca is free to not cooperate with a friendly request. But KeSPA and blizzard are also free to use whatever power they have to keep Starcraft and its players away from afreeca. And I think they should use that power under these circumstances. Maybe I misunderstood I think the op changed since I last looked at it, but I thought it was only kespa petitioning and not blizzard. I also think blizzard changing streaming platforms is not a good idea. That would be hurting twitch or afreeca because of what these other people did, which sounds crazy to me. None of this sounds like friendly request to me. More importantly, how does that keep people from match-fixing? If harsh punishment was correlated to less crimes committed, the USA would be the most crime free country in the world. It doesn't work. In general law enforcement is one of the big controls when it comes to such crimes as many studies have shown. And law enforcement is the actual application of punishment, not the theoretical existance. You can usually overdo law enforcment causing more (actual and social) costs than you generate gain from it, but in this case we are talking about people who commited crimes because their profession didn't pay well enough. Banning them from that profession may actually help them getting their life together and net an extra benefit. (while for example you don't want to ban someone from his job because he did drugs, since that draws such a person even deeper into depressions that he may want to fight with drugs, and also might lead to acquisitive crimes --> higher social costs) We are also talking about people who don't have proper education and don't have a money pillow to get one. And who have their army service in the future. If they want to get them their shit together, give them their military service now as a part of their punishment. They won't stream, they will rethink their lives and probably get their shit together. Simple, nice, elegant. Er, thats what actually happened. Most of the people indicted in the first match fixing scandal (except Savior, probably cause of his dodgy knees) went straight into military service in order to move on from what they did. Don't be surprised if you hear of Yoda enlisting in the military ASAP as well as making some sort of sob post on Cyworld. As for Gerrard and B4 who have probably been to the military already, meh, who cares about them. I am good at reinventing wheel
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BTW, am I the only one who got feels like Westerners being patronising?
It is very weird to see people saying 'We Europeans !@#$%^, Korea`s law system is !@#$%^&*...' as if Europe`s superiority over SK was for granted.
KeSPA knows that their request is not enforceable, nor able to apply legal limitations. that`s why they 'requested' - cause it`s the streaming sites that have a right to prohibit`em, based on the term that they can prohibit someone`s stream if he/she has an issue that is related with their reputation.
the point is, it`s up to AfreecaTV`s volition. If they refuse it, that`s it. KeSPA cannot do anything. It`s not arrogation nor coercion. Of course, it`s not a violation of the principle of not reopening a settled case. Are we clear?
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Braavos36362 Posts
Great. Fuck these guys I hope they get banned from everything.
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Correct me if I am wrong but as far as I know Afreeca does not require a liecence to use by players. Kespa should know their own limits, and stick to what they are for. Its Afreecas show, its their money and their service. I do think that Afreeca should be the one to implement some sort of standard but its definitly not for Kespa to determine that.
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Nice move by Afreeca, don't let those bullies dictate everything. Banning them for life from progaming is fine, but streaming is their own personnal business, stop invading that shit.
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On October 21 2015 01:21 Hot_Bid wrote: Great. Fuck these guys I hope they get banned from everything.
the symptom of the disease is cheaters like this. the disease itsself is that there is no money to be made by playing full time SC2. new guys will come along and do the same damn thing.
a couple of symptoms have been treated and the disease keeps on truckin'
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On October 21 2015 00:05 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 23:14 ybjoony wrote:I think what many people are missing is that Kespa isn't breaking any law - they can't enforce anything outside their org, true, and they are asking for cooperation. Seeing that Afreeca said no, it is entirely up to them if they want to appeal to blizzard or try and create public uproar, or threaten to withdraw their players from GSL if afreeca doesn't comply. They are not breaking any laws by doing that.
And I fully support Kespa for this move, both to discourage more players from being involved in match fixing and to punish those who participated. The very definition of being "PRO" is "paid to participate in a sport or activity" according to merriam and webster dictionary. According to that, those afreeca streamers are pros in their own right, and I don't think those who have been proven to be not deserving of the name "pro" to be in the industry anymore. Also, as far as I know, many korean esports fans despise them too(well, most people in sc and sc2 gallery in dcinside, pgr, inven and fomos, most prominent of korean esports websites) and don't want to see those matchfixers from earning any income from sports they defiled.
About the scale of the ban, I am okay with them as long as they don't gain any income from playing eSports; I am okay with them playing with their friends, okay even with them streaming as long as they don't get any money - which is not the case on Afreeca streamers.
There are also precedence in other sports match fixing in korea where people who matchfixed are banned in other related organizations too- Park hyun-jun, a baseball player banned for matchfixing in 2012 couldn't get to other leagues such as MLB, NPB or CPBL(taiwan league), and was working in his father's pub until recently, when he went to Dominica to play baseball - apparently they don't have agreements with KBO - but nothing stops them from asking dominicans to ban him(although it is up to them whether to accept or not) Choi-sung kuk, biggest name on soccer match fixing, is working in a hospital(cashier, I think) now because he couldn't get to any other leagues that are registered in FIFA(I saw an article that he was trying to go to marcedonian league, but couldn't because KFA appealed to FIFA to block).
So, conclusion? 1. It is entirely within Kespa's rights to ask for bans from other organizations, and use whatever tools in their shed to let their will known. 2. If it goes to public opinion in Korea, it is most likely that kespa's stance will be supported. 3. There is precedence of other known matchfixers who are effectively blocked from playing for money in the industry Being banned in other leagues of professional play for that particular sport is understandable because they are associate with the sport he cheated in, and competing in sports is the same as being a pro-gamer. It is an electronic sport that a programer competes in. However, being a "streamer" isn't the same as a being a pro-gamer. MC isn't a pro-gamer anymore, he is considered a "professional streamer." While he streams starcraft content nobody considers him a pro-gamer anymore, he is retired. If I make youtube videos and the content is me playing sc2 against other people, that makes me a youtuber and no youtuber is considered a professional gamer (unless they play in professional competition). I don't think people should be banned from being professional streamers because they cheated at a sport. sport |spôrt| noun 1 an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment: team sports such as baseball and soccer | (as modifier sports) : a sports center. An E-sport. An "professional e-sport" is a game both team play in competition for money, which leaves a slightly blurred line. If you play sc2 on stream, you will most likely be competing against others on ladder. However, nobody you compete against will be earning any money from the competition (unless they are streaming, and then the money is ONLY for their stream content and not for the "competition"). You as the streamer might also earn no money because the vast majority of people that stream on twitch don't get ANY money. My guess is you would also be fine with him streaming other games like mariokart, but you don't want him streaming sc2? If he is banned from streaming, they are banning his rights to do any form of streaming, which isn't professional exports. To me this feels more like kespa saying, "Oh you really like the noodles at the stir fry place on the corner, well funny cause I know the owner and guess what your not welcome there." How would you feel if kespa petitioned blizzard to ban his ip from any form of play? I still think a streamer is a streamer and a programer is a programer. Nobody calls a streamer a programer, unless they actually are in active competition and even then, they aren't "competing" on stream. Pro-gamers stream their practice or a lesson, not competition (Showmatch or Tourny is always put on by someone other than that streamer). Imo an action like this doesn't prevent or deter anyone from match-fixing, it just strips more personal rights. Also, isn't jail and a lifetime ban enough punishment for fixing 4 or 1 match? Most or all professional athletes that took steroids didn't even go to jail, and they built entire careers off it, like lance armstrong. How much money did he make based off manipulation? Millions more than anyone in this petty scandal, and never went to jail and kept it all. What its about is a player cheating and breaking rules that are very serious within a sport. I don't know how it works in regular sports because I don't follow it.
But Kespa wants to take away the matchficers opportunity to earn money on SC2 at all. In my world this is similar to for example is a baseball player that got banned for life tried to become a coach or a trainer, I'm pretty sure that would not be allowed. Even though "that would not make them a progamer" but just a coach or a trainer. Someone that knows toher sports are welcome to chime in but in my mind this is not all-bad. I can see both sides.
The other part of the coin is that streaming is breaking copyright to be frawnk with you, no one is actually allowed to show video of gameplay due to the right to do tha tlies with the company that has the rights to the game. The only ones that uses(abuses) this though is nintendo they ban any video on youtube for example that doesn't pay them money. It is is their right. So if Blizz don't want them to stream Sc2 its pretty damn easy for them to stop them from doing that if we look at it from a law perspective.
So basically all the arguements you are using are flawed.
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On October 20 2015 14:40 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 14:33 StarStruck wrote:On October 20 2015 12:15 Waxangel wrote: It's totally enforceable if they get Blizzard to tell Afreeca to kill those streams.
You remember that time like six years ago, when KeSPA tried to argue that broadcast rights belonged to anyone BUT the developer of the game? Remember how that shit ended? Yep :/ I'm all for it. Need to have something enforceable anywhere to try and make people think twice before doing it. So they are forcing young kids to stay in a house whole day playing video games for more than 12 hours in many cases without salary and no promise of getting any reward,they wasted their young there,no studies ,then they turn 22 and see how they have nothing to construct their life and loss one game can gave them 3k.usd.i dont support it but i kind of understand their situation.and it is kespa fault at the end.
i'm almost positive that KeSPA made a requirement (sometime in the last 2 years) that any team involved in KeSPA doings has to provide a livable salary, also. that's the kids fault, not the teams... if you can't make a name it's your fault for spending that time not winning.....what kespa is trying to do is discourage what has been done, whether or not you agree that's okay. but if you for once blame the coaches for them doing this shit, bullshit. the coaches approach them yes, but thats when you can say no (and report to KeSPA) or say yes, the stupid people said yes and then when they found out they were to deep they got blackmailed..... that is COMPLETELY their own fault.
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Streaming isn't professional gaming but it allows the match-fixers to earn money by playing game. This can give impression the other players in pro-gaming(Especially the players in lower leagues) that even if they're caught, they won't get any financial problem without changing career. Nothing different to pro-gaming except they cannot run for a team. They even open their own competition.
This is why i (maybe most of Korean fans) personally support KeSPA.
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KeSPA really need to stop waving their corporate finger around in these matters like an egotistical diva with a superiority complex. They have no authority or justification whatsoever to request game streaming sites to ban match-fixers. Streaming a game for entertainment purposes is entirely different to professional competitive gaming.
Nothing about this is going to deter SC2 players from match-fixing in future. Only a strong competitive scene with plenty of tournament opportunities and prize pools that aren't so top-heavy can fix that. And guess what? The SC2 scene does not have that in general; especially not South Korea where you only have GSL, SSL and SPL to compete in, as well as the occasional IEM or Dreamhack tournament going on; provided that you're on a team willing to fly you out across the world.
It actually disgusts me that Twitch have complied with KeSPA's request too, and it's reached the point where I'm tempted to stop using their platform and start investing in Afreeca's.
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141 Posts
On October 21 2015 03:36 Clbull wrote: KeSPA really need to stop waving their corporate finger around in these matters like an egotistical diva with a superiority complex. They have no authority or justification whatsoever to request game streaming sites to ban match-fixers. Streaming a game for entertainment purposes is entirely different to professional competitive gaming.
Nothing about this is going to deter SC2 players from match-fixing in future. Only a strong competitive scene with plenty of tournament opportunities and prize pools that aren't so top-heavy can fix that. We wouldn't have had three members of Prime implicated in this scandal in the first place if the coach and his players were able to make ends meet.
It actually disgusts me that Twitch have complied with KeSPA's request too, and it's reached the point where I'm tempted to stop using their platform and start investing in Afreeca's.
It's not just KeSPA that want players who match fixed being banned from streaming though. It's a move supported by a wide majority of Korean casters, pros and fans. Many prominent casters and pros publicly expressed how disgusted and frustrated they are about seeing sAviOr streaming and going on as if nothing happened after literally breaking the Brood War scene apart.
From my observation, Korean community is much more emotional and angry about the event than the western world.
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On October 21 2015 01:58 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 01:21 Hot_Bid wrote: Great. Fuck these guys I hope they get banned from everything. the symptom of the disease is cheaters like this. the disease itsself is that there is no money to be made by playing full time SC2. new guys will come along and do the same damn thing. a couple of symptoms have been treated and the disease keeps on truckin'
This is completely untrue. Match-fixing and cheating are unrelated to the amount of money in said sport. Every sport is potentially subject to them regardless of how big or small it is. How would you explain match-fixing and betting scandals in football/soccer (a sport where there is a lot of money at stake) and in handball (one where there is definitely a lot less money) in recent years to take 2 simple examples?
On to the subject, this may seem a bit harsh from Kespa but I agree that those who were convicted should be prevented from taking part in competition or any kind of professionnal activity related to the game they were caught on, including streaming. This won't solve the issue, but this should deter a few guys for some time, I don't think there are any definitive solution anyway, it's part of sport. It just needs to be dealt with from time to time. I hope Afreeca changes their mind and cooperates, this would be unsightly now that they have a hand on GSL...
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
it's a legit thing to demand kespa to raise player pay and whatnot, and the korean scene can support it no doubt especially if they actually try to run a revenue positive business by incorporating streaming.
but as things stand the fact that some of the matchfixers can still profitably stream serves as a stark reminder that it's not that bad to matchfix. kespa is probably better off by doing some work instead of getting jelly but the jelly is rational.
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Katowice25012 Posts
On October 21 2015 03:43 r_gg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 03:36 Clbull wrote: KeSPA really need to stop waving their corporate finger around in these matters like an egotistical diva with a superiority complex. They have no authority or justification whatsoever to request game streaming sites to ban match-fixers. Streaming a game for entertainment purposes is entirely different to professional competitive gaming.
Nothing about this is going to deter SC2 players from match-fixing in future. Only a strong competitive scene with plenty of tournament opportunities and prize pools that aren't so top-heavy can fix that. We wouldn't have had three members of Prime implicated in this scandal in the first place if the coach and his players were able to make ends meet.
It actually disgusts me that Twitch have complied with KeSPA's request too, and it's reached the point where I'm tempted to stop using their platform and start investing in Afreeca's. It's not just KeSPA that want players who match fixed being banned from streaming though. It's a move supported by a wide majority of Korean casters, pros and fans. Many prominent casters and pros publicly expressed how disgusted and frustrated they are about seeing sAviOr streaming and going on as if nothing happened after literally breaking the Brood War scene apart. From my observation, Korean community is much more emotional and angry about the event than the western world.
The latter is pretty true regarding Savior as well, a lot of foreign fans don't hate him anymore but my perception of Korea is still that they're pretty against him doing anything.
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On October 21 2015 00:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote: No, what's ridiculous is your slippery slope fallacy. No, what's ridiculous is trying to control the life of people who has already paid for their crimes. I'm as big a fan of StarCraft as anyone and I hate what they did but I would never ever be for what KeSPA is trying to pull.
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141 Posts
On October 21 2015 05:47 Heyoka wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 03:43 r_gg wrote:On October 21 2015 03:36 Clbull wrote: KeSPA really need to stop waving their corporate finger around in these matters like an egotistical diva with a superiority complex. They have no authority or justification whatsoever to request game streaming sites to ban match-fixers. Streaming a game for entertainment purposes is entirely different to professional competitive gaming.
Nothing about this is going to deter SC2 players from match-fixing in future. Only a strong competitive scene with plenty of tournament opportunities and prize pools that aren't so top-heavy can fix that. We wouldn't have had three members of Prime implicated in this scandal in the first place if the coach and his players were able to make ends meet.
It actually disgusts me that Twitch have complied with KeSPA's request too, and it's reached the point where I'm tempted to stop using their platform and start investing in Afreeca's. It's not just KeSPA that want players who match fixed being banned from streaming though. It's a move supported by a wide majority of Korean casters, pros and fans. Many prominent casters and pros publicly expressed how disgusted and frustrated they are about seeing sAviOr streaming and going on as if nothing happened after literally breaking the Brood War scene apart. From my observation, Korean community is much more emotional and angry about the event than the western world. The latter is pretty true regarding Savior as well, a lot of foreign fans don't hate him anymore but my perception of Korea is still that they're pretty against him doing anything.
comparing community reaction, it's interesting how Korean community is viewing Afreeca to be the big greedy corporate evil and Kespa as the one enforcing justice, while I'm seeing almost a complete opposite in the foreign reaction.
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On October 21 2015 05:53 r_gg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 05:47 Heyoka wrote:On October 21 2015 03:43 r_gg wrote:On October 21 2015 03:36 Clbull wrote: KeSPA really need to stop waving their corporate finger around in these matters like an egotistical diva with a superiority complex. They have no authority or justification whatsoever to request game streaming sites to ban match-fixers. Streaming a game for entertainment purposes is entirely different to professional competitive gaming.
Nothing about this is going to deter SC2 players from match-fixing in future. Only a strong competitive scene with plenty of tournament opportunities and prize pools that aren't so top-heavy can fix that. We wouldn't have had three members of Prime implicated in this scandal in the first place if the coach and his players were able to make ends meet.
It actually disgusts me that Twitch have complied with KeSPA's request too, and it's reached the point where I'm tempted to stop using their platform and start investing in Afreeca's. It's not just KeSPA that want players who match fixed being banned from streaming though. It's a move supported by a wide majority of Korean casters, pros and fans. Many prominent casters and pros publicly expressed how disgusted and frustrated they are about seeing sAviOr streaming and going on as if nothing happened after literally breaking the Brood War scene apart. From my observation, Korean community is much more emotional and angry about the event than the western world. The latter is pretty true regarding Savior as well, a lot of foreign fans don't hate him anymore but my perception of Korea is still that they're pretty against him doing anything. comparing community reaction, it's interesting how Korean community is viewing Afreeca to be the big greedy corporate evil and Kespa as the one enforcing justice, while I'm seeing almost a complete opposite in the foreign reaction.
The majority of foreign sc fans have never seen the damage that matchfixing can do.
Personally I hope all these matchfixers never make a dime from SC again and the courts force them to pay back every cent they made from matchfixing, even if they have to work it off in their new jobs.
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141 Posts
On October 21 2015 06:06 iamho wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 05:53 r_gg wrote:On October 21 2015 05:47 Heyoka wrote:On October 21 2015 03:43 r_gg wrote:On October 21 2015 03:36 Clbull wrote: KeSPA really need to stop waving their corporate finger around in these matters like an egotistical diva with a superiority complex. They have no authority or justification whatsoever to request game streaming sites to ban match-fixers. Streaming a game for entertainment purposes is entirely different to professional competitive gaming.
Nothing about this is going to deter SC2 players from match-fixing in future. Only a strong competitive scene with plenty of tournament opportunities and prize pools that aren't so top-heavy can fix that. We wouldn't have had three members of Prime implicated in this scandal in the first place if the coach and his players were able to make ends meet.
It actually disgusts me that Twitch have complied with KeSPA's request too, and it's reached the point where I'm tempted to stop using their platform and start investing in Afreeca's. It's not just KeSPA that want players who match fixed being banned from streaming though. It's a move supported by a wide majority of Korean casters, pros and fans. Many prominent casters and pros publicly expressed how disgusted and frustrated they are about seeing sAviOr streaming and going on as if nothing happened after literally breaking the Brood War scene apart. From my observation, Korean community is much more emotional and angry about the event than the western world. The latter is pretty true regarding Savior as well, a lot of foreign fans don't hate him anymore but my perception of Korea is still that they're pretty against him doing anything. comparing community reaction, it's interesting how Korean community is viewing Afreeca to be the big greedy corporate evil and Kespa as the one enforcing justice, while I'm seeing almost a complete opposite in the foreign reaction. The majority of foreign sc fans have never seen the damage that matchfixing can do. Personally I hope all these matchfixers never make a dime from SC again and the courts force them to pay back every cent they made from matchfixing, even if they have to work it off in their new jobs.
yeah, I wasn't there when it happened, but just reading up on how it ripped the scene apart and how shameless the culprits were after the event is absolutely hearth-breaking.
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On October 21 2015 06:06 iamho wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 05:53 r_gg wrote:On October 21 2015 05:47 Heyoka wrote:On October 21 2015 03:43 r_gg wrote:On October 21 2015 03:36 Clbull wrote: KeSPA really need to stop waving their corporate finger around in these matters like an egotistical diva with a superiority complex. They have no authority or justification whatsoever to request game streaming sites to ban match-fixers. Streaming a game for entertainment purposes is entirely different to professional competitive gaming.
Nothing about this is going to deter SC2 players from match-fixing in future. Only a strong competitive scene with plenty of tournament opportunities and prize pools that aren't so top-heavy can fix that. We wouldn't have had three members of Prime implicated in this scandal in the first place if the coach and his players were able to make ends meet.
It actually disgusts me that Twitch have complied with KeSPA's request too, and it's reached the point where I'm tempted to stop using their platform and start investing in Afreeca's. It's not just KeSPA that want players who match fixed being banned from streaming though. It's a move supported by a wide majority of Korean casters, pros and fans. Many prominent casters and pros publicly expressed how disgusted and frustrated they are about seeing sAviOr streaming and going on as if nothing happened after literally breaking the Brood War scene apart. From my observation, Korean community is much more emotional and angry about the event than the western world. The latter is pretty true regarding Savior as well, a lot of foreign fans don't hate him anymore but my perception of Korea is still that they're pretty against him doing anything. comparing community reaction, it's interesting how Korean community is viewing Afreeca to be the big greedy corporate evil and Kespa as the one enforcing justice, while I'm seeing almost a complete opposite in the foreign reaction. The majority of foreign sc fans have never seen the damage that matchfixing can do. Imagine the damage nobody actually saw with their own eyes, which was never put in numbers - sponsors/investors turning away from the idea of funding SC teams/events/whatever because they don't want to be associated.
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On October 21 2015 06:06 iamho wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 05:53 r_gg wrote:On October 21 2015 05:47 Heyoka wrote:On October 21 2015 03:43 r_gg wrote:On October 21 2015 03:36 Clbull wrote: KeSPA really need to stop waving their corporate finger around in these matters like an egotistical diva with a superiority complex. They have no authority or justification whatsoever to request game streaming sites to ban match-fixers. Streaming a game for entertainment purposes is entirely different to professional competitive gaming.
Nothing about this is going to deter SC2 players from match-fixing in future. Only a strong competitive scene with plenty of tournament opportunities and prize pools that aren't so top-heavy can fix that. We wouldn't have had three members of Prime implicated in this scandal in the first place if the coach and his players were able to make ends meet.
It actually disgusts me that Twitch have complied with KeSPA's request too, and it's reached the point where I'm tempted to stop using their platform and start investing in Afreeca's. It's not just KeSPA that want players who match fixed being banned from streaming though. It's a move supported by a wide majority of Korean casters, pros and fans. Many prominent casters and pros publicly expressed how disgusted and frustrated they are about seeing sAviOr streaming and going on as if nothing happened after literally breaking the Brood War scene apart. From my observation, Korean community is much more emotional and angry about the event than the western world. The latter is pretty true regarding Savior as well, a lot of foreign fans don't hate him anymore but my perception of Korea is still that they're pretty against him doing anything. comparing community reaction, it's interesting how Korean community is viewing Afreeca to be the big greedy corporate evil and Kespa as the one enforcing justice, while I'm seeing almost a complete opposite in the foreign reaction. The majority of foreign sc fans have never seen the damage that matchfixing can do. Personally I hope all these matchfixers never make a dime from SC again and the courts force them to pay back every cent they made from matchfixing, even if they have to work it off in their new jobs.
The ban from streaming sites will do far more than prevent them from making a dime off SC again; it'll prevent them from making a dime from any gaming stream content in general; even if it's purely for entertainment rather than competitive play.
You won't be able to see... say... sAviOr or YoDa pick up Minecraft or DayZ and become a popular streamer in those games; and it's the fact that KeSPA are trying to police their activity outside of professional SC that disgusts me.
On October 21 2015 06:23 r_gg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 06:06 iamho wrote:On October 21 2015 05:53 r_gg wrote:On October 21 2015 05:47 Heyoka wrote:On October 21 2015 03:43 r_gg wrote:On October 21 2015 03:36 Clbull wrote: KeSPA really need to stop waving their corporate finger around in these matters like an egotistical diva with a superiority complex. They have no authority or justification whatsoever to request game streaming sites to ban match-fixers. Streaming a game for entertainment purposes is entirely different to professional competitive gaming.
Nothing about this is going to deter SC2 players from match-fixing in future. Only a strong competitive scene with plenty of tournament opportunities and prize pools that aren't so top-heavy can fix that. We wouldn't have had three members of Prime implicated in this scandal in the first place if the coach and his players were able to make ends meet.
It actually disgusts me that Twitch have complied with KeSPA's request too, and it's reached the point where I'm tempted to stop using their platform and start investing in Afreeca's. It's not just KeSPA that want players who match fixed being banned from streaming though. It's a move supported by a wide majority of Korean casters, pros and fans. Many prominent casters and pros publicly expressed how disgusted and frustrated they are about seeing sAviOr streaming and going on as if nothing happened after literally breaking the Brood War scene apart. From my observation, Korean community is much more emotional and angry about the event than the western world. The latter is pretty true regarding Savior as well, a lot of foreign fans don't hate him anymore but my perception of Korea is still that they're pretty against him doing anything. comparing community reaction, it's interesting how Korean community is viewing Afreeca to be the big greedy corporate evil and Kespa as the one enforcing justice, while I'm seeing almost a complete opposite in the foreign reaction. The majority of foreign sc fans have never seen the damage that matchfixing can do. Personally I hope all these matchfixers never make a dime from SC again and the courts force them to pay back every cent they made from matchfixing, even if they have to work it off in their new jobs. yeah, I wasn't there when it happened, but just reading up on how it ripped the scene apart and how shameless the culprits were after the event is absolutely hearth-breaking.
How do we know they were shameless? More often than not, we didn't even get to see the culprit's perspectives of the whole scandal. For all we know, the progamers implicated may genuinely be remorseful about their actions.
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On October 21 2015 06:35 Clbull wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 06:06 iamho wrote:On October 21 2015 05:53 r_gg wrote:On October 21 2015 05:47 Heyoka wrote:On October 21 2015 03:43 r_gg wrote:On October 21 2015 03:36 Clbull wrote: KeSPA really need to stop waving their corporate finger around in these matters like an egotistical diva with a superiority complex. They have no authority or justification whatsoever to request game streaming sites to ban match-fixers. Streaming a game for entertainment purposes is entirely different to professional competitive gaming.
Nothing about this is going to deter SC2 players from match-fixing in future. Only a strong competitive scene with plenty of tournament opportunities and prize pools that aren't so top-heavy can fix that. We wouldn't have had three members of Prime implicated in this scandal in the first place if the coach and his players were able to make ends meet.
It actually disgusts me that Twitch have complied with KeSPA's request too, and it's reached the point where I'm tempted to stop using their platform and start investing in Afreeca's. It's not just KeSPA that want players who match fixed being banned from streaming though. It's a move supported by a wide majority of Korean casters, pros and fans. Many prominent casters and pros publicly expressed how disgusted and frustrated they are about seeing sAviOr streaming and going on as if nothing happened after literally breaking the Brood War scene apart. From my observation, Korean community is much more emotional and angry about the event than the western world. The latter is pretty true regarding Savior as well, a lot of foreign fans don't hate him anymore but my perception of Korea is still that they're pretty against him doing anything. comparing community reaction, it's interesting how Korean community is viewing Afreeca to be the big greedy corporate evil and Kespa as the one enforcing justice, while I'm seeing almost a complete opposite in the foreign reaction. The majority of foreign sc fans have never seen the damage that matchfixing can do. Personally I hope all these matchfixers never make a dime from SC again and the courts force them to pay back every cent they made from matchfixing, even if they have to work it off in their new jobs. The ban from streaming sites will do far more than prevent them from making a dime off SC again; it'll prevent them from making a dime from any gaming stream content in general; even if it's purely for entertainment rather than competitive play. You won't be able to see... say... sAviOr or YoDa pick up Minecraft or DayZ and become a popular streamer in those games; and it's the fact that KeSPA are trying to police their activity outside of professional SC that disgusts me. Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 06:23 r_gg wrote:On October 21 2015 06:06 iamho wrote:On October 21 2015 05:53 r_gg wrote:On October 21 2015 05:47 Heyoka wrote:On October 21 2015 03:43 r_gg wrote:On October 21 2015 03:36 Clbull wrote: KeSPA really need to stop waving their corporate finger around in these matters like an egotistical diva with a superiority complex. They have no authority or justification whatsoever to request game streaming sites to ban match-fixers. Streaming a game for entertainment purposes is entirely different to professional competitive gaming.
Nothing about this is going to deter SC2 players from match-fixing in future. Only a strong competitive scene with plenty of tournament opportunities and prize pools that aren't so top-heavy can fix that. We wouldn't have had three members of Prime implicated in this scandal in the first place if the coach and his players were able to make ends meet.
It actually disgusts me that Twitch have complied with KeSPA's request too, and it's reached the point where I'm tempted to stop using their platform and start investing in Afreeca's. It's not just KeSPA that want players who match fixed being banned from streaming though. It's a move supported by a wide majority of Korean casters, pros and fans. Many prominent casters and pros publicly expressed how disgusted and frustrated they are about seeing sAviOr streaming and going on as if nothing happened after literally breaking the Brood War scene apart. From my observation, Korean community is much more emotional and angry about the event than the western world. The latter is pretty true regarding Savior as well, a lot of foreign fans don't hate him anymore but my perception of Korea is still that they're pretty against him doing anything. comparing community reaction, it's interesting how Korean community is viewing Afreeca to be the big greedy corporate evil and Kespa as the one enforcing justice, while I'm seeing almost a complete opposite in the foreign reaction. The majority of foreign sc fans have never seen the damage that matchfixing can do. Personally I hope all these matchfixers never make a dime from SC again and the courts force them to pay back every cent they made from matchfixing, even if they have to work it off in their new jobs. yeah, I wasn't there when it happened, but just reading up on how it ripped the scene apart and how shameless the culprits were after the event is absolutely hearth-breaking. How do we know they were shameless? More often than not, we didn't even get to see the culprit's perspectives of the whole scandal. For all we know, the progamers implicated may genuinely be remorseful about their actions.
There are two streamers currently who has done match fixing. Savior and Hwasin.
Savior always have been claimed that he was innocent because what is did was only brokering match fixing, not actual match fixed by himself. This shows how shameless he is. He had even wrote a fake diary that he was so upset due to he loses, and intended to show it to other teammates and coaches by leaving it opened to their practice area, before the match fixing scandal.
And the other one, Hwasin, tried to host a tournament recently. Also when he did his first stream, on his internet browser's favorite bar, there was a betting site's address. I don't think he feels shameful on anything he has done.
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Yes justice won! The law was enforced letting a bs organization pull revenge against someone is not something that should be encouraged.
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On October 21 2015 03:36 Clbull wrote: It actually disgusts me that Twitch have complied with KeSPA's request too, and it's reached the point where I'm tempted to stop using their platform and start investing in Afreeca's.
And I feel the exact opposite. I'm frankly outraged that Afreeca is NOT clamping down on this because it sends a message that they're happy to support matchfixers.
If they really were some random streaming service, as you keep implying, then that would be one thing. But this is the company that has the right to the next GSL. It is absurd and completely incompatible for them to both be supporting matchfixers and handling the GSL.
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Imagine if some scandal broke out that destroyed some western teams, not just some no names but major ones like TeamLiquid or EG. Then the people responsible just goes back on Twitch a few months later streaming games or asking for ad money and donations.
It's a morally gray area what the appropriate punishment is, banning people from professional sports for life happens often when there is some gross violation, but you can't easily make money using social media / crowd funding or streaming services related to the sport you were banned from with traditional sports.
It's not like Savior or Hwasin or Yoda can't stay low and get other gaming or entertainment related jobs, they would be met with hostility and suspicion (which may or may not be appropriate) from the employer, but it's not impossible. If the complaint is just that they lost their primary source of income... All progamers that retire have to do a drastic career switch when they retire, it's not limited to matchfixers.
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its unbelievable how people dont see how damaging having match fixers continuously stream is to the industry. most people on tl are here because of their love for games and esports, yet the are condoning this kind of shit despite the fact that it is destroying the very sport they love. not sure if ignorance, hypocrisy or just troll
kespa is a government organisation that oversees esports in korea. in their efforts to develop standards and regulations that would help esports be recognised over the world as a proper sporting industry, theyve done a lot of things which have had mixed reactions from fans. but this is their job. theyre supposed to protect the esports industry from shit like this so that the industry can stay sustainable and you idiots can actually enjoy watching live professional sc (or any other game).
not one person got actual jail time from the first match fixing scandal. some of them were only slapped with a fine; didnt even get probation on a sentence. so match fixer rigs games -> makes a lot of money -> gets caught one day -> pays a fine and maybe gets a probationary period + ban -> continues to make more money by streaming if the above stays true for all future match fixers too, why the fk would any progamer want to continue playing legit when they can just make money ez by rigging games? if there is no stricter punishment for match fixers then there will ALWAYS be incentive for progamers to make more money by participating in illegal activities. this is exactly what kespa is trying to prevent; a continued source of income through gaming for match fixers. how is this so fking hard to understand?
kespa is well within their rights to ASK afreeca to ban matchfixers that are constantly damaging the sustainability of the industry kespa is looking after. should they wish to pursue this further with blizzard and court rulings, again, it is still well within their rights.
honestly, it is massively disappointing that afreeca has decided not to comply with kespas request. but i cant say it wasnt expected. the people who run afreeca arent exactly model businessmen, i mean some of the shit they allow to be broadcast is just straight up retarded.
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On October 21 2015 09:02 -Celestial- wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 03:36 Clbull wrote: It actually disgusts me that Twitch have complied with KeSPA's request too, and it's reached the point where I'm tempted to stop using their platform and start investing in Afreeca's. And I feel the exact opposite. I'm frankly outraged that Afreeca is NOT clamping down on this because it sends a message that they're happy to support matchfixers. If they really were some random streaming service, as you keep implying, then that would be one thing. But this is the company that has the right to the next GSL. It is absurd and completely incompatible for them to both be supporting matchfixers and handling the GSL. What does "supporting matchfixers" even mean? Streaming platforms give people a tool to, well stream their gameplay to get viewers. PEOPLE watching support this, not the streaming platform. And even if you wanna say this is already supporting them, so what? If someone fixed a match he shouldn't be allowed to stream gameplay anymore? Why? People really have weird point of views here imo
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people dont have a problem with them streaming games. they can stream their gameplay to their group of friends and no one would give a shit the problem is that they are MAKING MONEY through the streams. they are still essentially 'progamers'. match fixers continuously making money through gaming is wrong. the aim isnt to ban them from streaming in general, its to prevent them from making money. it just so happens that a streaming ban is necessary to make this possible
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No they are not progamers, they are streamers and if people want to watch that (and give money to that) then they can. Streaming is ONLY entertainment, this isn't competetive gaming. Blame (if you want) the people who watch these guys then, no matchfixer would get any money from streaming if there wasn't demand to watch it. The matchfixing problem is largely based on progamers getting not enough money from their teams. This is a self made problem and if Kespa really cares so much about it, maybe they should try to change that aspect.
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On October 21 2015 09:41 The_Red_Viper wrote: No they are not progamers, they are streamers and if people want to watch that (and give money to that) then they can. Streaming is ONLY entertainment, this isn't competetive gaming. Blame (if you want) the people who watch these guys then, no matchfixer would get any money from streaming if there wasn't demand to watch it. The matchfixing problem is largely based on progamers getting not enough money from their teams. This is a self made problem and if Kespa really cares so much about it, maybe they should try to change that aspect.
1. Progamers with the highest profile who make more than enough money (more money than their peers in respective high positions the same age range who have higher levels of education) get the same matchfixing requests. And some (see BW matchfixing) of those high profile players still choose to matchfix even though their incomes were considerably stable. It's not always the B-teamers and the teams that don't have money that matchfix.
2. There's only money for matchfixing if there is enough money focused around a certain sport, the incentive for people to matchfix revolves around there being enough "normal" unsuspecting betters who are willing to put down money for the scammers and matchfixers to exploit. It's not enough to establish a causal relationship but it's definitely a case for incidental relationships just based on simple economic relationships that unless there was already money surrounding a sport there would be no incentive for matchfixing to occur.
Besides, if Kespa enforced some kind of player - team contract mandate, especially ones related to salary, half of this forum would be up in arms saying how Kespa is the evil galactic overlord trying to weed the competition where only the richest corporate sponsors can buy teams any ways.
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Kespa is not very concerned with freedom of speech or "innocent until proven guilty".
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141 Posts
On October 21 2015 10:18 Doodsmack wrote: Kespa is not very concerned with freedom of speech or "innocent until proven guilty".
same can be said for Afreeca, especially based on their past and current operation.
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It's kinda funny how people request from Kespa not to send requests to afreeca...
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1. I am not saying that there will never be greedy people who would still be part of matchfixing even if they have enough money. But having A LOT of players who make literally nothing unless they are part of the elite, well then you practically add to the problem yourself. 2. Yeah sure, that doesn't mean that this money is distributed fairly though. I am not saying that this step would destroy any matchfixing though, there is much more to it then salary for players, i am just saying it certainly would help though.
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AfreecaTV should ban match-fixers playing in GSL only. Streaming, I believe, is a different issue. Streaming has nothing to do with pro-scene and as long as governments and blizzard is unwilling, KesPA should stay in their domain. They are a private enterprise, not a government. The have no right to make people's lives more miserable outside of their jurisdiction.
Plus if you don't want match-fixers ruin the scene and come back and make money off the game, then don't watch it. But if people still want to watch them play, then they have all the right to.
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On October 21 2015 09:29 The_Red_Viper wrote: And even if you wanna say this is already supporting them, so what? If someone fixed a match he shouldn't be allowed to stream gameplay anymore? Why? People really have weird point of views here imo
I'm saying that the organisation that has the rights to the biggest tournament in SC2, the GSL, for next year shouldn't be associating itself openly with matchfixers and giving them a platform.
And I agree. I cannot see how anyone can possibly think this is an acceptable thing for Afreeca to do. Its a very strange perspective.
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On October 21 2015 09:41 The_Red_Viper wrote: No they are not progamers, they are streamers and if people want to watch that (and give money to that) then they can. Streaming is ONLY entertainment, this isn't competetive gaming. Blame (if you want) the people who watch these guys then, no matchfixer would get any money from streaming if there wasn't demand to watch it. The matchfixing problem is largely based on progamers getting not enough money from their teams. This is a self made problem and if Kespa really cares so much about it, maybe they should try to change that aspect.
The streaming service in question also runs the GSL. Do you not see this. It'd be like the Olympics organisation allowing athelets who fixed matches to continue to be featured in Olympics publicity and sponsorship deals.
It makes no sense.
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On October 21 2015 10:26 The_Red_Viper wrote: 1. I am not saying that there will never be greedy people who would still be part of matchfixing even if they have enough money. But having A LOT of players who make literally nothing unless they are part of the elite, well then you practically add to the problem yourself. 2. Yeah sure, that doesn't mean that this money is distributed fairly though. I am not saying that this step would destroy any matchfixing though, there is much more to it then salary for players, i am just saying it certainly would help though.
Some of the highest paying professional sports leagues are the most corrupt. You are not taking into account the fact that as you ramp up player income you are also ramping up the financial incentive to be engaged in unprofessional and unsportsmanlike behavior. There's a reasonable range where players aren't starving and can afford a decent lifestyle, top tier professional SC2 players already hit that range. Ramping it up more might make the problem even worse. If anything you should be campaigning for more Korean Telecom tier sponsors, not anything Kespa can enforce.
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On October 21 2015 09:41 The_Red_Viper wrote: No they are not progamers, they are streamers and if people want to watch that (and give money to that) then they can. Streaming is ONLY entertainment, this isn't competetive gaming. Blame (if you want) the people who watch these guys then, no matchfixer would get any money from streaming if there wasn't demand to watch it. The matchfixing problem is largely based on progamers getting not enough money from their teams. This is a self made problem and if Kespa really cares so much about it, maybe they should try to change that aspect. progaming literally means professional gamer, as in anyone who makes money from gaming. thats what the term progamer means. the public has only come to associate the word progamer with really high skill because really high skill is what it takes for you to make money off the game. progamers not getting enough money from their teams is not the teams' problem. the progamers enter into a contract WILLINGLY knowing that they will be paid x amount. if the teams agreed to a salary and then didnt pay this would be another issue, but this isnt the case. the progamers WILLINGLY chose this career path despite there being little income because of their love for the game. if they stray from this path then they are at fault 100%, no one is to blame but themselves. i cannot see how people are dumb enough to think the progaming industry is some slave labour force.
On October 21 2015 10:54 swissman777 wrote: AfreecaTV should ban match-fixers playing in GSL only. Streaming, I believe, is a different issue. Streaming has nothing to do with pro-scene and as long as governments and blizzard is unwilling, KesPA should stay in their domain. They are a private enterprise, not a government. The have no right to make people's lives more miserable outside of their jurisdiction.
Plus if you don't want match-fixers ruin the scene and come back and make money off the game, then don't watch it. But if people still want to watch them play, then they have all the right to. kespa isnt a private enterprise wtf? its under a government organisation. streaming has nothing to do with the pro scene? well go back and read what i said in the previous page because match fixers' streams have a constant negative impact on the pro scene. and whos lives are being made more miserable due to kespas actions? the match fixers? well frankly they dont deserve to make money from gaming after the damage they do to the industry and its players the fans? fans who wish to watch streams of match fixers despite everything are selfish and ignorant the pros who are playing legit? these players' lives become more miserable with each passing day that kespa takes no action because their careers are being endangered by a weakened industry and the people responsible for it continue to make more money than they do by streaming like nothing ever happened.
god i wish people would stop being so ignorant and educate themselves about the damn industry. the whole esports industry isnt just here to please fans. the professionals arent circus clowns here to entertain fans only. huge sums of money are injected into the industry in order to try and make esports sustainable, mainly from sponsorship deals. if matchfixing continuously plagues the industry, one by one sponsors will pull out just like it happened with brood war, and then there are no teams or players because theres no money for tournaments and leagues. players' and coaches' careers end just like that and the only ones left who could possibly survive in esports are the casters, by switching games.
matchfixing has a massive ripple effect on the industry every time it happens, regardless of how weak or severe the punishments to the players are. so the best way to prevent it is to remove incentive for players to do it. the best way to do this is to let players know that if they are caught match fixing any source of income from gaming related activities will be cut off for them, which is huge to these people because they are fucking unqualified for practically every other job out there, unless they want to clean cars or sell mcdonalds for the rest of their lives
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Bisutopia19029 Posts
How come KESPA hasn't requested Blizzard ban them from the game? That'd eliminate them from everything all together. Just a thought.
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well if they paid for the game i doubt even blizzard would go as far as stopping them from playing it. they could block the streams though, which is probably the next step for kespa if they want to go further
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i cannot see how people are dumb enough to think the progaming industry is some slave labour force.
Because it is close enough to it. "hey people choose this path WILLINGLY, therefore it is ok to exploit them" Ok i guess
edit: Ok let's say savior wants to stream mokbangs on afreeca, that would be ok then? Ridiculous pov
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On October 21 2015 20:27 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote + i cannot see how people are dumb enough to think the progaming industry is some slave labour force. Because it is close enough to it. "hey people choose this path WILLINGLY, therefore it is ok to exploit them" Ok i guess edit: Ok let's say savior wants to stream mokbangs on afreeca, that would be ok then? Ridiculous pov
If savior wants to eat on stream yeah that would be ok. Because at least it would be unrelated to Starcraft.
Do you realize that Afreeca is hosting Starcraft events? If you were a sponsor, what would you think of a company and unfortunately undirectly of the whole scene if a tournament host allowed players who had criminal records related to your activity to earn money through their own service? Would you ever want to be associated with them?
It is not a matter of freedom, right, punishment or vengeance. It is a matter of ethics and being credible. Afreeca is hurting everybody's credibility by doing that. And I'm not even counting the obvious issue of conflict of interest.
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On October 21 2015 11:44 levelping wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 09:41 The_Red_Viper wrote: No they are not progamers, they are streamers and if people want to watch that (and give money to that) then they can. Streaming is ONLY entertainment, this isn't competetive gaming. Blame (if you want) the people who watch these guys then, no matchfixer would get any money from streaming if there wasn't demand to watch it. The matchfixing problem is largely based on progamers getting not enough money from their teams. This is a self made problem and if Kespa really cares so much about it, maybe they should try to change that aspect.
The streaming service in question also runs the GSL. Do you not see this. It'd be like the Olympics organisation allowing athelets who fixed matches to continue to be featured in Olympics publicity and sponsorship deals. It makes no sense.
Yeah because the IOC does not allow all olympic dopers after a rather short period of "cooldown" to play in the Olympics....
Oh they do! Thats... rather how it works. And they even do that in South Korea? Park Tae-Hwan anyone?
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141 Posts
On October 21 2015 22:19 Clonester wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 11:44 levelping wrote:On October 21 2015 09:41 The_Red_Viper wrote: No they are not progamers, they are streamers and if people want to watch that (and give money to that) then they can. Streaming is ONLY entertainment, this isn't competetive gaming. Blame (if you want) the people who watch these guys then, no matchfixer would get any money from streaming if there wasn't demand to watch it. The matchfixing problem is largely based on progamers getting not enough money from their teams. This is a self made problem and if Kespa really cares so much about it, maybe they should try to change that aspect.
The streaming service in question also runs the GSL. Do you not see this. It'd be like the Olympics organisation allowing athelets who fixed matches to continue to be featured in Olympics publicity and sponsorship deals. It makes no sense. Yeah because the IOC does not allow all olympic dopers after a rather short period of "cooldown" to play in the Olympics.... Oh they do! Thats... rather how it works. And they even do that in South Korea? Park Tae-Hwan anyone?
Cause doping has the same consequences as organized match-fixing?
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On October 21 2015 22:25 r_gg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 22:19 Clonester wrote:On October 21 2015 11:44 levelping wrote:On October 21 2015 09:41 The_Red_Viper wrote: No they are not progamers, they are streamers and if people want to watch that (and give money to that) then they can. Streaming is ONLY entertainment, this isn't competetive gaming. Blame (if you want) the people who watch these guys then, no matchfixer would get any money from streaming if there wasn't demand to watch it. The matchfixing problem is largely based on progamers getting not enough money from their teams. This is a self made problem and if Kespa really cares so much about it, maybe they should try to change that aspect.
The streaming service in question also runs the GSL. Do you not see this. It'd be like the Olympics organisation allowing athelets who fixed matches to continue to be featured in Olympics publicity and sponsorship deals. It makes no sense. Yeah because the IOC does not allow all olympic dopers after a rather short period of "cooldown" to play in the Olympics.... Oh they do! Thats... rather how it works. And they even do that in South Korea? Park Tae-Hwan anyone? Cause doping has the same consequences as organized match-fixing?
it does not? The one thing makes people losing to gain money from people who do somethign illegal (betting is totally illegal in korea), the other one gains money by taking winnings with a unfair advantage over fair competiting people... so yes. Doping has worse consequences.
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On October 21 2015 22:19 Clonester wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 11:44 levelping wrote:On October 21 2015 09:41 The_Red_Viper wrote: No they are not progamers, they are streamers and if people want to watch that (and give money to that) then they can. Streaming is ONLY entertainment, this isn't competetive gaming. Blame (if you want) the people who watch these guys then, no matchfixer would get any money from streaming if there wasn't demand to watch it. The matchfixing problem is largely based on progamers getting not enough money from their teams. This is a self made problem and if Kespa really cares so much about it, maybe they should try to change that aspect.
The streaming service in question also runs the GSL. Do you not see this. It'd be like the Olympics organisation allowing athelets who fixed matches to continue to be featured in Olympics publicity and sponsorship deals. It makes no sense. Yeah because the IOC does not allow all olympic dopers after a rather short period of "cooldown" to play in the Olympics.... Oh they do! Thats... rather how it works. And they even do that in South Korea? Park Tae-Hwan anyone?
IOC, Fifa and other traditionnal sport organizations/companies acting like mafia organizations is not a valid reason to justify doing the same here.
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141 Posts
On October 21 2015 22:43 Clonester wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 22:25 r_gg wrote:On October 21 2015 22:19 Clonester wrote:On October 21 2015 11:44 levelping wrote:On October 21 2015 09:41 The_Red_Viper wrote: No they are not progamers, they are streamers and if people want to watch that (and give money to that) then they can. Streaming is ONLY entertainment, this isn't competetive gaming. Blame (if you want) the people who watch these guys then, no matchfixer would get any money from streaming if there wasn't demand to watch it. The matchfixing problem is largely based on progamers getting not enough money from their teams. This is a self made problem and if Kespa really cares so much about it, maybe they should try to change that aspect.
The streaming service in question also runs the GSL. Do you not see this. It'd be like the Olympics organisation allowing athelets who fixed matches to continue to be featured in Olympics publicity and sponsorship deals. It makes no sense. Yeah because the IOC does not allow all olympic dopers after a rather short period of "cooldown" to play in the Olympics.... Oh they do! Thats... rather how it works. And they even do that in South Korea? Park Tae-Hwan anyone? Cause doping has the same consequences as organized match-fixing? it does not? The one thing makes people losing to gain money from people who do somethign illegal (betting is totally illegal in korea), the other one gains money by taking winnings with a unfair advantage over fair competiting people... so yes. Doping has worse consequences.
Doping is a problem that violates the rules within a game and taint the spirit of the competition, but it has little to no consequences outside the scene itself. Match-fixing is something that is a clear violation of the law. This is why police is involved in the investigation. Betting activities themselves aren't illegal. There's plenty of legal sports-betting in Korea in the form of Toto lotteries.
Doping and cheating incidents are something that's contained within the bounds of the organization, and it is treated as an isolated incident of unsportsmanlike conduct. Match-fixing on the other hand involves an outside organization (gambling sector) and it has direct impact on the public perception of the industry.
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On October 21 2015 02:29 Shuffleblade wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 00:05 ShambhalaWar wrote:On October 20 2015 23:14 ybjoony wrote:I think what many people are missing is that Kespa isn't breaking any law - they can't enforce anything outside their org, true, and they are asking for cooperation. Seeing that Afreeca said no, it is entirely up to them if they want to appeal to blizzard or try and create public uproar, or threaten to withdraw their players from GSL if afreeca doesn't comply. They are not breaking any laws by doing that.
And I fully support Kespa for this move, both to discourage more players from being involved in match fixing and to punish those who participated. The very definition of being "PRO" is "paid to participate in a sport or activity" according to merriam and webster dictionary. According to that, those afreeca streamers are pros in their own right, and I don't think those who have been proven to be not deserving of the name "pro" to be in the industry anymore. Also, as far as I know, many korean esports fans despise them too(well, most people in sc and sc2 gallery in dcinside, pgr, inven and fomos, most prominent of korean esports websites) and don't want to see those matchfixers from earning any income from sports they defiled.
About the scale of the ban, I am okay with them as long as they don't gain any income from playing eSports; I am okay with them playing with their friends, okay even with them streaming as long as they don't get any money - which is not the case on Afreeca streamers.
There are also precedence in other sports match fixing in korea where people who matchfixed are banned in other related organizations too- Park hyun-jun, a baseball player banned for matchfixing in 2012 couldn't get to other leagues such as MLB, NPB or CPBL(taiwan league), and was working in his father's pub until recently, when he went to Dominica to play baseball - apparently they don't have agreements with KBO - but nothing stops them from asking dominicans to ban him(although it is up to them whether to accept or not) Choi-sung kuk, biggest name on soccer match fixing, is working in a hospital(cashier, I think) now because he couldn't get to any other leagues that are registered in FIFA(I saw an article that he was trying to go to marcedonian league, but couldn't because KFA appealed to FIFA to block).
So, conclusion? 1. It is entirely within Kespa's rights to ask for bans from other organizations, and use whatever tools in their shed to let their will known. 2. If it goes to public opinion in Korea, it is most likely that kespa's stance will be supported. 3. There is precedence of other known matchfixers who are effectively blocked from playing for money in the industry Being banned in other leagues of professional play for that particular sport is understandable because they are associate with the sport he cheated in, and competing in sports is the same as being a pro-gamer. It is an electronic sport that a programer competes in. However, being a "streamer" isn't the same as a being a pro-gamer. MC isn't a pro-gamer anymore, he is considered a "professional streamer." While he streams starcraft content nobody considers him a pro-gamer anymore, he is retired. If I make youtube videos and the content is me playing sc2 against other people, that makes me a youtuber and no youtuber is considered a professional gamer (unless they play in professional competition). I don't think people should be banned from being professional streamers because they cheated at a sport. sport |spôrt| noun 1 an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment: team sports such as baseball and soccer | (as modifier sports) : a sports center. An E-sport. An "professional e-sport" is a game both team play in competition for money, which leaves a slightly blurred line. If you play sc2 on stream, you will most likely be competing against others on ladder. However, nobody you compete against will be earning any money from the competition (unless they are streaming, and then the money is ONLY for their stream content and not for the "competition"). You as the streamer might also earn no money because the vast majority of people that stream on twitch don't get ANY money. My guess is you would also be fine with him streaming other games like mariokart, but you don't want him streaming sc2? If he is banned from streaming, they are banning his rights to do any form of streaming, which isn't professional exports. To me this feels more like kespa saying, "Oh you really like the noodles at the stir fry place on the corner, well funny cause I know the owner and guess what your not welcome there." How would you feel if kespa petitioned blizzard to ban his ip from any form of play? I still think a streamer is a streamer and a programer is a programer. Nobody calls a streamer a programer, unless they actually are in active competition and even then, they aren't "competing" on stream. Pro-gamers stream their practice or a lesson, not competition (Showmatch or Tourny is always put on by someone other than that streamer). Imo an action like this doesn't prevent or deter anyone from match-fixing, it just strips more personal rights. Also, isn't jail and a lifetime ban enough punishment for fixing 4 or 1 match? Most or all professional athletes that took steroids didn't even go to jail, and they built entire careers off it, like lance armstrong. How much money did he make based off manipulation? Millions more than anyone in this petty scandal, and never went to jail and kept it all. What its about is a player cheating and breaking rules that are very serious within a sport. I don't know how it works in regular sports because I don't follow it. But Kespa wants to take away the matchficers opportunity to earn money on SC2 at all. In my world this is similar to for example is a baseball player that got banned for life tried to become a coach or a trainer, I'm pretty sure that would not be allowed. Even though "that would not make them a progamer" but just a coach or a trainer. Someone that knows toher sports are welcome to chime in but in my mind this is not all-bad. I can see both sides. The other part of the coin is that streaming is breaking copyright to be frawnk with you, no one is actually allowed to show video of gameplay due to the right to do tha tlies with the company that has the rights to the game. The only ones that uses(abuses) this though is nintendo they ban any video on youtube for example that doesn't pay them money. It is is their right. So if Blizz don't want them to stream Sc2 its pretty damn easy for them to stop them from doing that if we look at it from a law perspective. So basically all the arguements you are using are flawed.
My point is that cheating in a physical sport really isn't much different than match-fixing. If I build a baseball career on cheating, I manipulate the outcome of a game for financial gain. These things happen in other sports such as baseball and the punishment is less in many cases, at least as far as I know.
Lance Armstrong is a perfect example, he had all his titles stripped and was banned for more than just the one sport (cycling) which he was involved in. He didn't go to jail and I believe he got sue by some people for money.
What if Lance decided to give personal cycling lessons to people, should the world try to ban him from that?
Imo no, the man still knows a lot about cycling and people could actually benefit from his knowledge. Also, I believe in second, third, maybe even fourth chances. People are people, all of us fail miserably at many different things in life, there are no saints... and if there are its because they failed and atoned for their failures.
At what point does it become just going after someone for blood/vengeance?
It's also an interesting point you bring up about copyright, I didn't know that, but it makes sense that if you were making money off their product some kind of infringement might exist, idk. Clearly even if that is the case, a different reality exists in the face of these laws as site likes twitch and afreeca exist and flourish. If this was ever a real thing the hosting sites would have been sued into oblivion years ago. Instead the companies that created the games pump massive amounts of money into these sites supporting the claimed copyright infringement. Saying this invalidates all my points is a massive stretch.
I say let Armstrong teach cycling (maybe he already is), he would probably be a great teacher.
Kespa operates an esports association, that is their domain. Let them ban these people from their domain, strip any titles aquired within the domain, but reaching out into other domains or pressuring them to follow suit is an overextension imo.
Of course they can do it, so let them try, but I don't agree with it.
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141 Posts
On October 22 2015 10:11 ShambhalaWar wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 02:29 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 21 2015 00:05 ShambhalaWar wrote:On October 20 2015 23:14 ybjoony wrote:I think what many people are missing is that Kespa isn't breaking any law - they can't enforce anything outside their org, true, and they are asking for cooperation. Seeing that Afreeca said no, it is entirely up to them if they want to appeal to blizzard or try and create public uproar, or threaten to withdraw their players from GSL if afreeca doesn't comply. They are not breaking any laws by doing that.
And I fully support Kespa for this move, both to discourage more players from being involved in match fixing and to punish those who participated. The very definition of being "PRO" is "paid to participate in a sport or activity" according to merriam and webster dictionary. According to that, those afreeca streamers are pros in their own right, and I don't think those who have been proven to be not deserving of the name "pro" to be in the industry anymore. Also, as far as I know, many korean esports fans despise them too(well, most people in sc and sc2 gallery in dcinside, pgr, inven and fomos, most prominent of korean esports websites) and don't want to see those matchfixers from earning any income from sports they defiled.
About the scale of the ban, I am okay with them as long as they don't gain any income from playing eSports; I am okay with them playing with their friends, okay even with them streaming as long as they don't get any money - which is not the case on Afreeca streamers.
There are also precedence in other sports match fixing in korea where people who matchfixed are banned in other related organizations too- Park hyun-jun, a baseball player banned for matchfixing in 2012 couldn't get to other leagues such as MLB, NPB or CPBL(taiwan league), and was working in his father's pub until recently, when he went to Dominica to play baseball - apparently they don't have agreements with KBO - but nothing stops them from asking dominicans to ban him(although it is up to them whether to accept or not) Choi-sung kuk, biggest name on soccer match fixing, is working in a hospital(cashier, I think) now because he couldn't get to any other leagues that are registered in FIFA(I saw an article that he was trying to go to marcedonian league, but couldn't because KFA appealed to FIFA to block).
So, conclusion? 1. It is entirely within Kespa's rights to ask for bans from other organizations, and use whatever tools in their shed to let their will known. 2. If it goes to public opinion in Korea, it is most likely that kespa's stance will be supported. 3. There is precedence of other known matchfixers who are effectively blocked from playing for money in the industry Being banned in other leagues of professional play for that particular sport is understandable because they are associate with the sport he cheated in, and competing in sports is the same as being a pro-gamer. It is an electronic sport that a programer competes in. However, being a "streamer" isn't the same as a being a pro-gamer. MC isn't a pro-gamer anymore, he is considered a "professional streamer." While he streams starcraft content nobody considers him a pro-gamer anymore, he is retired. If I make youtube videos and the content is me playing sc2 against other people, that makes me a youtuber and no youtuber is considered a professional gamer (unless they play in professional competition). I don't think people should be banned from being professional streamers because they cheated at a sport. sport |spôrt| noun 1 an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment: team sports such as baseball and soccer | (as modifier sports) : a sports center. An E-sport. An "professional e-sport" is a game both team play in competition for money, which leaves a slightly blurred line. If you play sc2 on stream, you will most likely be competing against others on ladder. However, nobody you compete against will be earning any money from the competition (unless they are streaming, and then the money is ONLY for their stream content and not for the "competition"). You as the streamer might also earn no money because the vast majority of people that stream on twitch don't get ANY money. My guess is you would also be fine with him streaming other games like mariokart, but you don't want him streaming sc2? If he is banned from streaming, they are banning his rights to do any form of streaming, which isn't professional exports. To me this feels more like kespa saying, "Oh you really like the noodles at the stir fry place on the corner, well funny cause I know the owner and guess what your not welcome there." How would you feel if kespa petitioned blizzard to ban his ip from any form of play? I still think a streamer is a streamer and a programer is a programer. Nobody calls a streamer a programer, unless they actually are in active competition and even then, they aren't "competing" on stream. Pro-gamers stream their practice or a lesson, not competition (Showmatch or Tourny is always put on by someone other than that streamer). Imo an action like this doesn't prevent or deter anyone from match-fixing, it just strips more personal rights. Also, isn't jail and a lifetime ban enough punishment for fixing 4 or 1 match? Most or all professional athletes that took steroids didn't even go to jail, and they built entire careers off it, like lance armstrong. How much money did he make based off manipulation? Millions more than anyone in this petty scandal, and never went to jail and kept it all. What its about is a player cheating and breaking rules that are very serious within a sport. I don't know how it works in regular sports because I don't follow it. But Kespa wants to take away the matchficers opportunity to earn money on SC2 at all. In my world this is similar to for example is a baseball player that got banned for life tried to become a coach or a trainer, I'm pretty sure that would not be allowed. Even though "that would not make them a progamer" but just a coach or a trainer. Someone that knows toher sports are welcome to chime in but in my mind this is not all-bad. I can see both sides. The other part of the coin is that streaming is breaking copyright to be frawnk with you, no one is actually allowed to show video of gameplay due to the right to do tha tlies with the company that has the rights to the game. The only ones that uses(abuses) this though is nintendo they ban any video on youtube for example that doesn't pay them money. It is is their right. So if Blizz don't want them to stream Sc2 its pretty damn easy for them to stop them from doing that if we look at it from a law perspective. So basically all the arguements you are using are flawed. My point is that cheating in a physical sport really isn't much different than match-fixing. If I build a baseball career on cheating, I manipulate the outcome of a game for financial gain. These things happen in other sports such as baseball and the punishment is less in many cases, at least as far as I know.
No cheating and matchfixing are two very different things. One is a federal crime, other is not. Match-fixing is treated with much severe penalty compared to mere cheating. Here is an example from baseball:
Chicago Black Sox Scandal from wikipedia:
The Black Sox Scandal took place during the play of the 1919 World Series. The Chicago White Sox lost the series to the Cincinnati Reds, and eight White Sox players were later accused of intentionally losing games in exchange for money from gamblers. The players were acquitted in court, but nevertheless, they were all banned for life from baseball.
....
After being banned, Risberg and several other members of the Black Sox tried to organize a three-state barnstorming tour. However, they were forced to cancel those plans after Landis let it be known that anyone who played with or against them would also be banned from baseball for life. They then announced plans to play a regular exhibition game every Sunday in Chicago, but the Chicago City Council threatened to cancel the license of any ballpark that hosted them.[5]
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On October 22 2015 10:16 r_gg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2015 10:11 ShambhalaWar wrote:On October 21 2015 02:29 Shuffleblade wrote:On October 21 2015 00:05 ShambhalaWar wrote:On October 20 2015 23:14 ybjoony wrote:I think what many people are missing is that Kespa isn't breaking any law - they can't enforce anything outside their org, true, and they are asking for cooperation. Seeing that Afreeca said no, it is entirely up to them if they want to appeal to blizzard or try and create public uproar, or threaten to withdraw their players from GSL if afreeca doesn't comply. They are not breaking any laws by doing that.
And I fully support Kespa for this move, both to discourage more players from being involved in match fixing and to punish those who participated. The very definition of being "PRO" is "paid to participate in a sport or activity" according to merriam and webster dictionary. According to that, those afreeca streamers are pros in their own right, and I don't think those who have been proven to be not deserving of the name "pro" to be in the industry anymore. Also, as far as I know, many korean esports fans despise them too(well, most people in sc and sc2 gallery in dcinside, pgr, inven and fomos, most prominent of korean esports websites) and don't want to see those matchfixers from earning any income from sports they defiled.
About the scale of the ban, I am okay with them as long as they don't gain any income from playing eSports; I am okay with them playing with their friends, okay even with them streaming as long as they don't get any money - which is not the case on Afreeca streamers.
There are also precedence in other sports match fixing in korea where people who matchfixed are banned in other related organizations too- Park hyun-jun, a baseball player banned for matchfixing in 2012 couldn't get to other leagues such as MLB, NPB or CPBL(taiwan league), and was working in his father's pub until recently, when he went to Dominica to play baseball - apparently they don't have agreements with KBO - but nothing stops them from asking dominicans to ban him(although it is up to them whether to accept or not) Choi-sung kuk, biggest name on soccer match fixing, is working in a hospital(cashier, I think) now because he couldn't get to any other leagues that are registered in FIFA(I saw an article that he was trying to go to marcedonian league, but couldn't because KFA appealed to FIFA to block).
So, conclusion? 1. It is entirely within Kespa's rights to ask for bans from other organizations, and use whatever tools in their shed to let their will known. 2. If it goes to public opinion in Korea, it is most likely that kespa's stance will be supported. 3. There is precedence of other known matchfixers who are effectively blocked from playing for money in the industry Being banned in other leagues of professional play for that particular sport is understandable because they are associate with the sport he cheated in, and competing in sports is the same as being a pro-gamer. It is an electronic sport that a programer competes in. However, being a "streamer" isn't the same as a being a pro-gamer. MC isn't a pro-gamer anymore, he is considered a "professional streamer." While he streams starcraft content nobody considers him a pro-gamer anymore, he is retired. If I make youtube videos and the content is me playing sc2 against other people, that makes me a youtuber and no youtuber is considered a professional gamer (unless they play in professional competition). I don't think people should be banned from being professional streamers because they cheated at a sport. sport |spôrt| noun 1 an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment: team sports such as baseball and soccer | (as modifier sports) : a sports center. An E-sport. An "professional e-sport" is a game both team play in competition for money, which leaves a slightly blurred line. If you play sc2 on stream, you will most likely be competing against others on ladder. However, nobody you compete against will be earning any money from the competition (unless they are streaming, and then the money is ONLY for their stream content and not for the "competition"). You as the streamer might also earn no money because the vast majority of people that stream on twitch don't get ANY money. My guess is you would also be fine with him streaming other games like mariokart, but you don't want him streaming sc2? If he is banned from streaming, they are banning his rights to do any form of streaming, which isn't professional exports. To me this feels more like kespa saying, "Oh you really like the noodles at the stir fry place on the corner, well funny cause I know the owner and guess what your not welcome there." How would you feel if kespa petitioned blizzard to ban his ip from any form of play? I still think a streamer is a streamer and a programer is a programer. Nobody calls a streamer a programer, unless they actually are in active competition and even then, they aren't "competing" on stream. Pro-gamers stream their practice or a lesson, not competition (Showmatch or Tourny is always put on by someone other than that streamer). Imo an action like this doesn't prevent or deter anyone from match-fixing, it just strips more personal rights. Also, isn't jail and a lifetime ban enough punishment for fixing 4 or 1 match? Most or all professional athletes that took steroids didn't even go to jail, and they built entire careers off it, like lance armstrong. How much money did he make based off manipulation? Millions more than anyone in this petty scandal, and never went to jail and kept it all. What its about is a player cheating and breaking rules that are very serious within a sport. I don't know how it works in regular sports because I don't follow it. But Kespa wants to take away the matchficers opportunity to earn money on SC2 at all. In my world this is similar to for example is a baseball player that got banned for life tried to become a coach or a trainer, I'm pretty sure that would not be allowed. Even though "that would not make them a progamer" but just a coach or a trainer. Someone that knows toher sports are welcome to chime in but in my mind this is not all-bad. I can see both sides. The other part of the coin is that streaming is breaking copyright to be frawnk with you, no one is actually allowed to show video of gameplay due to the right to do tha tlies with the company that has the rights to the game. The only ones that uses(abuses) this though is nintendo they ban any video on youtube for example that doesn't pay them money. It is is their right. So if Blizz don't want them to stream Sc2 its pretty damn easy for them to stop them from doing that if we look at it from a law perspective. So basically all the arguements you are using are flawed. My point is that cheating in a physical sport really isn't much different than match-fixing. If I build a baseball career on cheating, I manipulate the outcome of a game for financial gain. These things happen in other sports such as baseball and the punishment is less in many cases, at least as far as I know. No cheating and matchfixing are two very different things. One is a federal crime, other is not. Match-fixing is treated with much severe penalty compared to mere cheating. Here is an example from baseball: Chicago Black Sox Scandal from wikipedia: The Black Sox Scandal took place during the play of the 1919 World Series. The Chicago White Sox lost the series to the Cincinnati Reds, and eight White Sox players were later accused of intentionally losing games in exchange for money from gamblers. The players were acquitted in court, but nevertheless, they were all banned for life from baseball. .... After being banned, Risberg and several other members of the Black Sox tried to organize a three-state barnstorming tour. However, they were forced to cancel those plans after Landis let it be known that anyone who played with or against them would also be banned from baseball for life. They then announced plans to play a regular exhibition game every Sunday in Chicago, but the Chicago City Council threatened to cancel the license of any ballpark that hosted them.[5]
Interesting example, I didn't know about that. Sounds like official punishment was a lifetime ban, which I can understand and other organizations added the punishments of denying any play. Of course anyone can attempt to do anything they want and threaten people to scare them into such things. I don't agree with that kind of behavior, but it is their right to bully a ballpark that might host such a team.
I think you are right in that one is federally illegal and one is not, but my point was that past the legal issue these two things are similar in their outcomes. Both circumstances are people manipulating the outcome of a game in their favor for money. I think the discrepancy in punishment for the two things is quite interesting.
None of this changes the fact that it's not illegal to stream games if you've been involved in match fixing. They have the freedom to do that, just like city councils have the freedom to bully ballparks into submission. I just don't agree with the later.
Also reminder headline for everyone in the thread... (unless this changed).
These people were indicted, that means they were charged. It is clear to me that everyone in this thread sees these men as convicted criminals.
So much for innocent until proven guilty.
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Maybe Kespa should ensure that all players competing in their leagues are receiving salaries. Maybe match fixing wouldn't be such a problem if there were more opportunities for players to make money legitimately. Match fixing is simply a symptom of a much larger issue and that is the fact that so few of these "PRO" players are actually receiving what a pro deserves. I imagine it was tough for someone like Yoda to live with a guy like MC. A guy who basically made a killing in prize money and salary while you are making next to nothing. It shouldn't be only the top 10 players who make enough to get by. These young adults are throwing away a good portion of their formative years on something that will be useless to them in a real career. They need to be paid what they deserve or this scene is as good as dead already.
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On October 20 2015 15:04 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 14:40 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:On October 20 2015 14:33 StarStruck wrote:On October 20 2015 12:15 Waxangel wrote: It's totally enforceable if they get Blizzard to tell Afreeca to kill those streams.
You remember that time like six years ago, when KeSPA tried to argue that broadcast rights belonged to anyone BUT the developer of the game? Remember how that shit ended? Yep :/ I'm all for it. Need to have something enforceable anywhere to try and make people think twice before doing it. So they are forcing young kids to stay in a house whole day playing video games for more than 12 hours in many cases without salary and no promise of getting any reward,they wasted their young there,no studies ,then they turn 22 and see how they have nothing to construct their life and loss one game can gave them 3k.usd.i dont support it but i kind of understand their situation.and it is kespa fault at the end. what the fuck? progaming isnt some slave industry so not sure wtf youre talking about. how you could even think to justify match-fixers' actions by saying they were 'forced' to be a progamer just boggles my mind. progamers are progamers because THEY CHOOSE TO BE. if they fail at it then its their own damn fault; they sucked. kespa has done more than any other organisation on the planet for the sustainability of esports. this includes the care and management of players especially those linked to teams under the kespa organisation. if some guys who chose this path realise later on that theyre too shit to win anything so they take the losers' route and match fix in order to get some quick money, then they deserve everything they get. some people are actually still practicing their asses off to get to a level where they can still win something and the match fixing shit just shoots all those possibilities down.
I don't agree with match fixing and will never approve of match fixing, but some people do the wrong thing being in a desperate situation. Don't be so quickly to judge someone without knowing the full story from both sides. We're human and nobody is perfect.
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Canada16217 Posts
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United States32484 Posts
It's only KeSPA games. It's not a ban from ALL streaming.
Not surprising considering how much pressure Afreeca were under. They had very little popular support from the fans, and you can speculate that they were under a long of back channel pressure from KeSPA, teams, etc.
http://www.fomos.kr/esports/news_view?entry_id=15657
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Is there a list with all the Kespa-sanctioned games? I recall reading on Wiki that's there's like 30ish games But besides Crossfire, League, and Blizzard games, I'm not sure what would be on such a list.
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On October 22 2015 14:52 Waxangel wrote:It's only KeSPA games. It's not a ban from ALL streaming. Not surprising considering how much pressure Afreeca were under. They had very little popular support from the fans, and you can speculate that they were under a long of back channel pressure from KeSPA, teams, etc. http://www.fomos.kr/esports/news_view?entry_id=15657
No. They reversed it because Afreeca's reputation in Korea is getting EXTREMELY worse - most media and people balming it.
Plus, because of this, Afreeca's share price is going down
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Nice, I don't care about other games, but I really don't think they should have been streaming Starcraft games.
At least there won't be a boycott of GSL now, that would have been super awkward.
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United States32484 Posts
On October 22 2015 15:05 Thouhastmail wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2015 14:52 Waxangel wrote:It's only KeSPA games. It's not a ban from ALL streaming. Not surprising considering how much pressure Afreeca were under. They had very little popular support from the fans, and you can speculate that they were under a long of back channel pressure from KeSPA, teams, etc. http://www.fomos.kr/esports/news_view?entry_id=15657 No.
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i feel a little bad for hwasin, but i think same time matchfixer is forced to move on with their life
fuck savior though
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