KeSPA requests AfreecaTV to ban match-fixers` streams

On October 20 2015 11:33 GTR wrote:
Seems like they want to get rid of players such as Hwasin and recently go.go who've propped up on Afreeca recently.
To be honest I think this is pretty unfair of a demand - Afreeca have no relationship with KeSPA whatsoever and it infringes on their rights as people.

On October 20 2015 11:40 Apoteosis wrote:
So they will also ban ex-BW matchfixers (i.e. Savior) ?

On October 20 2015 12:40 c3rberUs wrote:
sAviOr hasn't streamed since August and pls no, don't ban HwaSin. Streaming is not professional gaming.

On October 20 2015 12:50 Circumstance wrote:

It's playing a game at set times for money. In Hearthstone, Kripparian might not be a competitive player, but that game is his profession. When you undermine the integrity of the game in any form, that game cannot be your livelihood. Twitch, Afreeca, et al. are being given a request by Kespa. They, as private organizations, are well within their right to decline, as I understand it (if it's a mandate, they can dispute it if they want). I find nothing unreasonable going on here.

On October 20 2015 12:50 Circumstance wrote:

It's playing a game at set times for money. In Hearthstone, Kripparian might not be a competitive player, but that game is his profession. When you undermine the integrity of the game in any form, that game cannot be your livelihood. Twitch, Afreeca, et al. are being given a request by Kespa. They, as private organizations, are well within their right to decline, as I understand it (if it's a mandate, they can dispute it if they want). I find nothing unreasonable going on here.

On October 20 2015 13:04 ShambhalaWar wrote:
I completely disagree with this.

What does streaming video games have to do with match-fixing?

How will banning someone from streaming in ANY WAY prevent future match-fixing?

It won't.

On October 20 2015 11:43 Jjjinyong wrote:
been a long time coming. They can do whatever they want but they shouldn't stream starcraft. This isn't their playground. They can't matchfix and ruin a whole scene and come back trying to make money off of it. Just how gullible do they think the community is?

On October 20 2015 13:31 Probemicro wrote:
Afreeca isn't the only streaming site lol...even if they are banned from Afreeca (which i highly doubt they would), other lesser known korean streaming sites or China streams will take them in, and their fanatic fanbase will continue to support them no matter what.

just silly useless knee jerk reaction from kespa.

On October 20 2015 13:34 evilfatsh1t wrote:
kespa isnt the court. they are asking for cooperation from streaming sites and probably blizzard too. if they dont get their way then its the end of that, but i feel kespa is well within their rights to ask as they are not just the governing body of esports but in a way they are also the players/teams' union.
besides, there has never been precedence with cases like this, so if kespa can argue that match fixers do far too much damage to the industry that they should not be allowed to touch the game again, i think they might have their way

On October 20 2015 13:08 Waxangel wrote:


They don't have to listen to KeSPA. but the statement says they'll work with the game publisher to enforce this.

Basically everyone in the industry acknowledges that game publishers own all the video/streaming rights to their games. KeSPA tried to fight Blizzard on this for years behind closed doors and lost. If Blizzard gets involved, do you think Afreeca wants to get into a legal confrontation over a handful of small-time streamers?

if a massive site like afreeca cant allow match fixers to stream, what makes you think some random smaller site would survive? rofl
and who would actually go to watch the random smaller site? afreeca basically monopolises korean streaming

On October 20 2015 13:35 arb wrote:

what
they requested bans for savior on afreeca forever,
match fixing isnt new to sc2 you know

On October 20 2015 13:38 Probemicro wrote:


if savior starts streaming in China, he will be given truckloads of attention and money i can assure you...they dont give about a fuck about kespa or whatever in general. you are the foolish one here

On October 20 2015 13:43 evilfatsh1t wrote:
lol wtf? saviors not gonna move to china rofl
if kespa actually gets legal backing for this savior wont be able to stream from anywhere in korea period. i dont know how good his chinese but im willing to bet hes not gonna just leave korea to a country which he knows jackshit about and knows no one just so he can stream a game hes not even good at anymore.
and lets say hypothetically that savior does go to china to stream despite everything. how many other small time progamers do you think could do the same? not everyone has a fanbase as big as saviors. at the very least kespa manages to shut down 99% of streaming for all match fixers.
i dont think youre in any position to be calling someone foolish lol

On October 20 2015 14:07 Probemicro wrote:


i call you foolish because savior's fanbase, China or even afreeca dont give a fuck what you think.

savior has been PERSONALLY invited to a BW tournament in china not very long ago, kespa protest but they just laugh knowing they have no authority to tell them what to do in china. tbh savior doesn't really care much about streaming or BW in general, its just a way to interact and receive donations from his fanbase. his BW is not in the level of any pros but more than good enough to beat any random korean amateur and beat 99% of current foreigners playing.

savior has been streaming in afreeca for quite a few years since the 2010 incident...afreeca letting him stream shows they have no obligation to listen to kespa and there is no legal backing to stop him streaming, simply because its not illegal.
his rabid fanbase will support him with donations no matter what he does

On October 20 2015 13:11 nimdil wrote:

I can't imagine anyone would try to enforce ban on Lance Armstrong for making a show about cycling online or on TV if it wasn't part of UCI. Sure, they would protest but I would not see ban incoming.

This is going too far imho.

On October 20 2015 12:15 Waxangel wrote:
It's totally enforceable if they get Blizzard to tell Afreeca to kill those streams.

You remember that time like six years ago, when KeSPA tried to argue that broadcast rights belonged to anyone BUT the developer of the game? Remember how that shit ended?

On October 20 2015 14:40 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:

So they are forcing young kids to stay in a house whole day playing video games for more than 12 hours in many cases without salary and no promise of getting any reward,they wasted their young there,no studies ,then they turn 22 and see how they have nothing to construct their life and loss one game can gave them 3k.usd.i dont support it but i kind of understand their situation.and it is kespa fault at the end.

On October 20 2015 11:43 Jjjinyong wrote:
been a long time coming. They can do whatever they want but they shouldn't stream starcraft. This isn't their playground. They can't matchfix and ruin a whole scene and come back trying to make money off of it. Just how gullible do they think the community is?

On October 20 2015 11:33 GTR wrote:
Seems like they want to get rid of players such as Hwasin and recently go.go who've propped up on Afreeca recently.
To be honest I think this is pretty unfair of a demand - Afreeca have no relationship with KeSPA whatsoever and it infringes on their rights as people.

On October 20 2015 16:40 BeStFAN wrote:
there is obvious conflict of interest, regardless of opinion

afreeca now has gsl in one hand, and matchfixers in the other

how can company continue gsl policies against matchfixer, and continue turning a blind eye to match fixer companies under same banner?

On October 20 2015 16:42 BeStFAN wrote:
not hard to imagine kespa withdrawing kespa player from gsl, in order to help recover from damage from matchfixing

or use as threat

On October 20 2015 17:14 Wolf wrote:
Afreeca said no. http://esports.dailygame.co.kr/view.php?ud=2015102015094655820

On October 20 2015 17:17 NEEDZMOAR wrote:


Which is good. Make sure they will never touch the game again.

On October 20 2015 13:38 Probemicro wrote:


if savior starts streaming in China, he will be given truckloads of attention and money i can assure you...they dont give about a fuck about kespa or whatever in general. you are the foolish one here

On October 20 2015 17:23 Thouhastmail wrote:
I don`t get it. Though I `ve hated Afreeca since 2006, I thought that they would take some responsibility as a body of e-sports operation.

On October 20 2015 17:25 Specialist wrote:


just no bw in china is non existent.. lol

On October 20 2015 17:19 Probemicro wrote:


you realise this is bad for kespa players as well, losing chance at wcs points/prize money?

On October 20 2015 17:33 BeStFAN wrote:


it would not be first time that there is embargo, even against player wishes

On October 20 2015 13:32 Circumstance wrote:

Full time streaming is EXACTLY why I side with Kespa here. Yoda should NOT be allowed to make a living out of Starcraft now that this has come out. For that matter, if they want to ban the BW match fixers who now do the same thing, I would welcome it.

On October 20 2015 17:32 NEEDZMOAR wrote:



and this is the company that will host GSL in the future? The way I see it the new hosts of GSL are okay with matchfixing and ruining the community.

On October 20 2015 18:02 opisska wrote:
I don't really know shit about korean law, but in Europe, this would likely not fly. Afreeca is a business and businesses are explicitly NOT allowed to pick customers, that's a big part of what anti-discrimination laws are about. They might refuse service to someone they are in a direct dispute with or in similar cases when they have a good reason to protect their own assets, but I can't see how other organisations' problems with someone qualifies. The same then comes for Blizzard - they can't just choose that they will allow the use of their product in a specific way only for some people (no matter what is written in some "agreement", in Europe, the any agreement that puts the customer into a worse position that is quaranteeed by law is automatically void).

Personally, I also disagree. If they want them to be banned from some activity, they should get a court order for that. "Justice" performed by a bunch of private companies is very bad concept that should not be supported.

On October 20 2015 17:42 Probemicro wrote:


the scene isn't really well-off, they don't have that kind of luxury

only blizzard can do something

On October 20 2015 18:07 TRaFFiC wrote:
I don't know what world some people are living in. More and more pros are coming out and saying match fixers are harassing them daily. This means there are likely more players/coaches/betting people involved. We've just hit the head of the iceberg. We need even more strict measures. Strip them of all salary earned in the past.

I have 0 sympathy for people who do this to sc2. They should never be allowed to make a dime from this game again.

On October 20 2015 18:07 TRaFFiC wrote:
I don't know what world some people are living in. More and more pros are coming out and saying match fixers are harassing them daily. This means there are likely more players/coaches/betting people involved. We've just hit the head of the iceberg. We need even more strict measures. Strip them of all salary earned in the past.

I have 0 sympathy for people who do this to sc2. They should never be allowed to make a dime from this game again.

On October 20 2015 18:15 gyrus wrote:
I find it hilariously cute how extremist asian countries are able to convince 1st world countries that making a bet on a video game is such a heinous crime. Sheep.

On October 20 2015 18:10 deacon.frost wrote:

Well that's easy, they earned nothing so you can strip nothing from their salaries. That's probably the main reason why they match fixed. Because they don't earn ANYTHING while being "professionals". I don't know, a professional player is someone who is being payed for doing their job. They were not payed, are they still professionals?
(well they are, but still...)

On October 20 2015 18:14 opisska wrote:


Some people have really brilliant legal thinking. Sure, KeSPA can try to sue them for damage, no problem. But in what world you live, where an employer can retroactively take back employee's salary on his own decision?

On October 20 2015 18:17 TRaFFiC wrote:
Even if it's true they earned no salary, all any Korean pro on a kespa team has to do is turn on a webcam 4 hours a day with a donation button and they will make enough donations to eat. Being able to live in a team house and be fed for free is a privilege in itself and one many people would kill for. Salary isn't the only way to make money, but regardless there is no excuse. What they did is worse than cheating.

On October 20 2015 18:17 TRaFFiC wrote:

Even if it's true they earned no salary, all any Korean pro on a kespa team has to do is turn on a webcam 4 hours a day with a donation button and they will make enough donations to eat. Being able to live in a team house and be fed for free is a privilege in itself and one many people would kill for. Salary isn't the only way to make money, but regardless there is no excuse. What they did is worse than cheating.

On October 20 2015 18:30 Rekrul wrote:
kespa should ban more than 3% of the matchfixers from their own leagues before they make these demands

On October 20 2015 18:29 Shuffleblade wrote:

Actually this is a misunderstanding, I don't know which "european laws" you are referring to but discrimination laws do not work the way you think they do. They do not in Sweden anyway and I have a ahrd time believing we have different ones than what EU has across its members.
The way it works is you are not allowed to discriminate certain groups, in essence a company or a store is allowed to deny/ban any customer they wish. Companies don't do this because its usually bad reputation(obviously) and because the stores/companies are free to do this the law against discrimination was made. This made it so that you are not allowed to systematically discriminate certain Groups.

In sweden these Groups constitutes "gender, gender identity or expression, ethnicity , religion or other belief , disability, sexual orientation or age"
So unless the person/Group that is denied or banned can prove it was because of any of these reasons the companies can do what the hell they want. They can refuse to sell to some people if they feel like it, its their right.

On October 20 2015 18:53 opisska wrote:


I thought this is an European concept, but maybe it isn't. However I was under the impression that in Czech Republic you can't just refuse service to a random individual because you could always hide your discrimination against a group by just picking individuals (and then the group motivation would be much harder to prove). But maybe that's the case of us being stricter than neccessary, it happens a lot.

On October 20 2015 17:32 NEEDZMOAR wrote:



and this is the company that will host GSL in the future? The way I see it the new hosts of GSL are okay with matchfixing and ruining the community.

On October 20 2015 18:30 Rekrul wrote:
kespa should ban more than 3% of the matchfixers from their own leagues before they make these demands

On October 20 2015 19:29 Musicus wrote:
Didn't these players violate Blizzard's terms anyway by matchfixing? Shouldn't Blizzard ban them from playing any Blizzard games?

On October 20 2015 18:30 Rekrul wrote:
kespa should ban more than 3% of the matchfixers from their own leagues before they make these demands

On October 20 2015 19:07 deacon.frost wrote:

We have it the same way You can refuse anyone you like but in, ehm, "some" cases you have to have a good reason(you know who is the case )

The reason why is this not happening is that it damages the public image. You never know who you are refusing and usually there's no way to refuse a customer who wants to pay you money. It is usually applied to drunks and thieves caught in the shop before.

Right now the only one who can ban them is Blizzard. Afreeca isn't affected by them. They haven't damaged their brand nor their streaming service. They damaged the SC2 image which could be a reason for Blizzard to ban their accounts but they can buy new accounts and that would meant for Blizzard to either ban them again and return their money or do nothing. Both actions would be viewed as bad because in western countries is the thing that you cannot be punished twice for the same crime(meaning new account should be OK). And if they do nothing some people will go bat shit crazy as they are doing now

On October 20 2015 19:35 jinyung2 wrote:



what they needed was some kind of progamer's union, but never happened.

On October 20 2015 19:35 jinyung2 wrote:

I agree with you man. i remember on stream larva talking about b-teamer life, its like 10+ hour of gaming and in between you have to clean, cook, dishes, laundry and all sorts of manual labor. they only get paid like 0~500$ a month and only select few who are good enough get to go to A-teamer house where they are again treated like servants/practice dummy. shit is rough, its like legal slavery and they really are wasting time if they don't make it while their peers are graduating high school and going to unis and shit.

what they needed was some kind of progamer's union, but never happened. industry stayed top heavy, teams sponsored by corporate giants but all the money is going elsewhere. they were so busy marketing a good image of progaming with the top players as if its something worth pursuing while probably 90% of kids just wasted a good chunk of their youth. its such a shady business if you think about it, not surprising matchfixing and other criminal activities keep happening lol

On October 20 2015 19:47 sumsaR wrote:
Stop being fucking silly kespa. What's next, contact their ISPs to demand they turn their internet access off so they can't play games?

On October 20 2015 20:04 Apoteosis wrote:
Kespa is not a private corporation; it is a government agency, especifically, it is a part of the State Administration.

So, if they order or request a private corporation to prohibit someone for use their services (which is the case):

1.- Kespa should have that prerrogative: by an explicit act (Congress act, specifically, not government regulation of any sort), stated previously to the misdemeanor.

2.- If they lack legal authorisation, they should occur to the nearest Court, to get the order from the judge.

Why is that? Because otherwise, Kespa will be infinging the following fundamental rights (or human rights):

1.- Afreeca's right to freely do business (economic liberty), that comprehends the capacity of giving his own terms of use, as long as they respect the law. And mainly, the liberty of selling any kind of goods and services to any individual, regardless of his gender, race, etc.

2.- Accused's right to not be punished twice for the same facts (non bis in idem). So, if the law says that a given crime will get a determinate punishment, the State can't add another negative consequence to that unless is the law that allows it (which is the case of accesory sentences like, in addition to jail time, prohibition of exerting a given activity).

3.- Administration's principle of legality, that is, basically, the submission of all the public organs to the law. Anything that the Adminsitration does or don't do should be stated previously in the law, and they can't do anything past the law. This is a guarantee to the particulars at the same time it is a limit to the State.

well, that's it (sorry for my bad english, i'm a lawyer in my origin country and I lack the specific terms for some words in English)

On October 20 2015 12:15 Waxangel wrote:
It's totally enforceable if they get Blizzard to tell Afreeca to kill those streams.

You remember that time like six years ago, when KeSPA tried to argue that broadcast rights belonged to anyone BUT the developer of the game? Remember how that shit ended?

On October 20 2015 13:13 BreAKerTV wrote:

They want to completely eradicate anyone who may have participated in match-fixing. I think in this case they are banning those guys from the Brood War match-fixing to make an example of them and the match-fixers caught yesterday.

This is KeSPA coming out and saying, "We will destroy your legacy. Now when people think of you, they will only think of the terrible thing that you did. They won't think of you streaming the other day, they'll think of how you threw games for money."

Personally, in some ways, I really do think this is going too far.

On October 20 2015 23:11 Big J wrote:
Blizzard and KeSPA should just boycott afreeca in whatever way they can. Afreeca is free to pull that shit, but blizzard and KeSPA should do everything in their power to get Starcraft out of this garbage, including choosing other streaming services for anything they do, or they may just bury the game on their own.

On October 20 2015 23:15 ShambhalaWar wrote:


You should read the op again, I'm not sure you understood what's happening.

On October 20 2015 23:14 ybjoony wrote:
I think what many people are missing is that Kespa isn't breaking any law - they can't enforce anything outside their org, true, and they are asking for cooperation. Seeing that Afreeca said no, it is entirely up to them if they want to appeal to blizzard or try and create public uproar, or threaten to withdraw their players from GSL if afreeca doesn't comply. They are not breaking any laws by doing that.

And I fully support Kespa for this move, both to discourage more players from being involved in match fixing and to punish those who participated. The very definition of being "PRO" is "paid to participate in a sport or activity" according to merriam and webster dictionary. According to that, those afreeca streamers are pros in their own right, and I don't think those who have been proven to be not deserving of the name "pro" to be in the industry anymore. Also, as far as I know, many korean esports fans despise them too(well, most people in sc and sc2 gallery in dcinside, pgr, inven and fomos, most prominent of korean esports websites) and don't want to see those matchfixers from earning any income from sports they defiled.

About the scale of the ban, I am okay with them as long as they don't gain any income from playing eSports; I am okay with them playing with their friends, okay even with them streaming as long as they don't get any money - which is not the case on Afreeca streamers.

There are also precedence in other sports match fixing in korea where people who matchfixed are banned in other related organizations too- Park hyun-jun, a baseball player banned for matchfixing in 2012 couldn't get to other leagues such as MLB, NPB or CPBL(taiwan league), and was working in his father's pub until recently, when he went to Dominica to play baseball - apparently they don't have agreements with KBO - but nothing stops them from asking dominicans to ban him(although it is up to them whether to accept or not)
Choi-sung kuk, biggest name on soccer match fixing, is working in a hospital(cashier, I think) now because he couldn't get to any other leagues that are registered in FIFA(I saw an article that he was trying to go to marcedonian league, but couldn't because KFA appealed to FIFA to block).

So, conclusion?
1. It is entirely within Kespa's rights to ask for bans from other organizations, and use whatever tools in their shed to let their will known.
2. If it goes to public opinion in Korea, it is most likely that kespa's stance will be supported.
3. There is precedence of other known matchfixers who are effectively blocked from playing for money in the industry

On October 20 2015 23:25 deacon.frost wrote:

Your examples are invalid. E-sport != sport. The streaming platform makes a huge difference. They are effectively blocked from playing for money. If the players who you named could stream their activities for so much money they would.

Also in sport you have a salary. They had nothing. Maybe we want to start treating players a little bit better before we start destroying their lives with harsh punishments...


Edit> It's pathetic to me. We know that teams treat players like slaves and yet we want players to behave like a full payed pro... WTF?! Am I the only one who sees an error here?

On October 20 2015 23:14 ybjoony wrote:
I

On October 20 2015 23:30 Elentos wrote:

People who severely damaged the scene, as well as the integrity of the game, being allowed to make a living by streaming that exact game. How is that fine?

On October 21 2015 00:05 ShambhalaWar wrote:


Being banned in other leagues of professional play for that particular sport is understandable because they are associate with the sport he cheated in, and competing in sports is the same as being a pro-gamer. It is an electronic sport that a programer competes in.

However, being a "streamer" isn't the same as a being a pro-gamer. MC isn't a pro-gamer anymore, he is considered a "professional streamer." While he streams starcraft content nobody considers him a pro-gamer anymore, he is retired. If I make youtube videos and the content is me playing sc2 against other people, that makes me a youtuber and no youtuber is considered a professional gamer (unless they play in professional competition).

I don't think people should be banned from being professional streamers because they cheated at a sport.

sport |spôrt|
noun
1 an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment: team sports such as baseball and soccer | (as modifier sports) : a sports center.

An E-sport.

An "professional e-sport" is a game both team play in competition for money, which leaves a slightly blurred line. If you play sc2 on stream, you will most likely be competing against others on ladder. However, nobody you compete against will be earning any money from the competition (unless they are streaming, and then the money is ONLY for their stream content and not for the "competition"). You as the streamer might also earn no money because the vast majority of people that stream on twitch don't get ANY money.

My guess is you would also be fine with him streaming other games like mariokart, but you don't want him streaming sc2?

If he is banned from streaming, they are banning his rights to do any form of streaming, which isn't professional exports. To me this feels more like kespa saying, "Oh you really like the noodles at the stir fry place on the corner, well funny cause I know the owner and guess what your not welcome there." How would you feel if kespa petitioned blizzard to ban his ip from any form of play?

I still think a streamer is a streamer and a programer is a programer. Nobody calls a streamer a programer, unless they actually are in active competition and even then, they aren't "competing" on stream. Pro-gamers stream their practice or a lesson, not competition (Showmatch or Tourny is always put on by someone other than that streamer).

Imo an action like this doesn't prevent or deter anyone from match-fixing, it just strips more personal rights. Also, isn't jail and a lifetime ban enough punishment for fixing 4 or 1 match? Most or all professional athletes that took steroids didn't even go to jail, and they built entire careers off it, like lance armstrong. How much money did he make based off manipulation? Millions more than anyone in this petty scandal, and never went to jail and kept it all.

On October 20 2015 23:23 Big J wrote:

I'm pretty sure I understood. And as I see it, afreeca is free to not cooperate with a friendly request. But KeSPA and blizzard are also free to use whatever power they have to keep Starcraft and its players away from afreeca. And I think they should use that power under these circumstances.

On October 20 2015 23:53 ybjoony wrote:


Esports industry as a whole is trying to fit into sports scene. One aspect of that is their participation in national sports competition(jeon-guk chejeon, 전국체전 in korean) - so it is your stance that is apart from what these people are trying to achieve.

Also, they do have salaries, although I acknowledge that it is meagre amount - and the treatment of the players leaves a lot to be desired. However, it is not okay for players to resort to illegitimate means to better their income. Korean esports scene already lost one chance in establishing player union when savior matchfixing happened, which arguably led to this state, and now, it is hard to argue for better treatments when the scene is much smaller compared to what we used to have in BW days.
And you seem to be forgetting an important point : those progamers who are slaved away as you so eloquently put it are in there because they chose to. They stay in there because they chose to do so, not because they are forced against their will to play - you can always quit and try your chances elsewhere. General player treatment in minors or B-teams are pretty pathetic - just look at MLB, established league for more than hundred years, yet how much they pay their minor leaguers? http://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/03/minor-leaguers-working-poor-lawsuit-mlb-bud-selig According to this article, from $600 to $1500 a month in 5 month season, not including housing, food in home games or supplies - like bats and gloves(which, all are provided to B-teamers, including public keyboard, computer and mouse)

P.S Prime was much worse than that, I know, but we are talking about general proscene here.

On October 21 2015 00:05 ShambhalaWar wrote:


Being banned in other leagues of professional play for that particular sport is understandable because they are associate with the sport he cheated in, and competing in sports is the same as being a pro-gamer. It is an electronic sport that a programer competes in.

However, being a "streamer" isn't the same as a being a pro-gamer. MC isn't a pro-gamer anymore, he is considered a "professional streamer." While he streams starcraft content nobody considers him a pro-gamer anymore, he is retired. If I make youtube videos and the content is me playing sc2 against other people, that makes me a youtuber and no youtuber is considered a professional gamer (unless they play in professional competition).

I don't think people should be banned from being professional streamers because they cheated at a sport.

sport |spôrt|
noun
1 an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment: team sports such as baseball and soccer | (as modifier sports) : a sports center.

An E-sport.

An "professional e-sport" is a game both team play in competition for money, which leaves a slightly blurred line. If you play sc2 on stream, you will most likely be competing against others on ladder. However, nobody you compete against will be earning any money from the competition (unless they are streaming, and then the money is ONLY for their stream content and not for the "competition"). You as the streamer might also earn no money because the vast majority of people that stream on twitch don't get ANY money.

My guess is you would also be fine with him streaming other games like mariokart, but you don't want him streaming sc2?

If he is banned from streaming, they are banning his rights to do any form of streaming, which isn't professional exports. To me this feels more like kespa saying, "Oh you really like the noodles at the stir fry place on the corner, well funny cause I know the owner and guess what your not welcome there." How would you feel if kespa petitioned blizzard to ban his ip from any form of play?

I still think a streamer is a streamer and a programer is a programer. Nobody calls a streamer a programer, unless they actually are in active competition and even then, they aren't "competing" on stream. Pro-gamers stream their practice or a lesson, not competition (Showmatch or Tourny is always put on by someone other than that streamer).

Imo an action like this doesn't prevent or deter anyone from match-fixing, it just strips more personal rights. Also, isn't jail and a lifetime ban enough punishment for fixing 4 or 1 match? Most or all professional athletes that took steroids didn't even go to jail, and they built entire careers off it, like lance armstrong. How much money did he make based off manipulation? Millions more than anyone in this petty scandal, and never went to jail and kept it all.

On October 21 2015 00:13 Big J wrote:


You are not using the term "professional" properly. If someone uses streaming to make a living she/he is a professional. It's of course debatable when it becomes a hobby that happens to generate a bit of extra cash, but in general if you make money from something that you dedicate a ton of time to you should be considered a professional.

And in sports there is no such discussion because there is no way to just keep on doing your sport and broadcasting it somehow. And if there was, I'm pretty sure that the big (often global) sports associations would try to shut such banned players down too. His point is very valid, KeSPA is basically just trying to close loopholes from official bans.

On October 21 2015 00:28 NEEDZMOAR wrote:


Were all fully aware of the circumstances as well as the elephant in the room. No need for a captain obvious. However that doesnt change the fact that matchfixing is stupid as fuck and shows no honor. If you dont feel like being a progamer anymore then quit. Any regular job will earn you more money. If youre not trying as a progamer then youre essentially just a guy without dreams who plays computer games all day. Its shit that they didnt get salaries, there should be regulations protecting the players, obviously. But there isnt. As shitty as the situation is, ultimately you as a person have a choice.

On October 21 2015 00:18 ShambhalaWar wrote:


Maybe I misunderstood I think the op changed since I last looked at it, but I thought it was only kespa petitioning and not blizzard.

I also think blizzard changing streaming platforms is not a good idea. That would be hurting twitch or afreeca because of what these other people did, which sounds crazy to me. None of this sounds like friendly request to me.

More importantly, how does that keep people from match-fixing?

If harsh punishment was correlated to less crimes committed, the USA would be the most crime free country in the world.

It doesn't work.

On October 21 2015 00:43 Big J wrote:


In general law enforcement is one of the big controls when it comes to such crimes as many studies have shown. And law enforcement is the actual application of punishment, not the theoretical existance.
You can usually overdo law enforcment causing more (actual and social) costs than you generate gain from it, but in this case we are talking about people who commited crimes because their profession didn't pay well enough. Banning them from that profession may actually help them getting their life together and net an extra benefit. (while for example you don't want to ban someone from his job because he did drugs, since that draws such a person even deeper into depressions that he may want to fight with drugs, and also might lead to acquisitive crimes --> higher social costs)

On October 21 2015 00:51 GTR wrote:


Er, thats what actually happened. Most of the people indicted in the first match fixing scandal (except Savior, probably cause of his dodgy knees) went straight into military service in order to move on from what they did.

Don't be surprised if you hear of Yoda enlisting in the military ASAP as well as making some sort of sob post on Cyworld. As for Gerrard and B4 who have probably been to the military already, meh, who cares about them.

On October 21 2015 01:21 Hot_Bid wrote:
Great. Fuck these guys I hope they get banned from everything.

On October 20 2015 14:40 [sc1f]eonzerg wrote:

So they are forcing young kids to stay in a house whole day playing video games for more than 12 hours in many cases without salary and no promise of getting any reward,they wasted their young there,no studies ,then they turn 22 and see how they have nothing to construct their life and loss one game can gave them 3k.usd.i dont support it but i kind of understand their situation.and it is kespa fault at the end.

On October 21 2015 03:36 Clbull wrote:
KeSPA really need to stop waving their corporate finger around in these matters like an egotistical diva with a superiority complex. They have no authority or justification whatsoever to request game streaming sites to ban match-fixers. Streaming a game for entertainment purposes is entirely different to professional competitive gaming.

Nothing about this is going to deter SC2 players from match-fixing in future. Only a strong competitive scene with plenty of tournament opportunities and prize pools that aren't so top-heavy can fix that. We wouldn't have had three members of Prime implicated in this scandal in the first place if the coach and his players were able to make ends meet.

It actually disgusts me that Twitch have complied with KeSPA's request too, and it's reached the point where I'm tempted to stop using their platform and start investing in Afreeca's.

On October 21 2015 00:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
No, what's ridiculous is your slippery slope fallacy.

On October 21 2015 05:47 Heyoka wrote:


The latter is pretty true regarding Savior as well, a lot of foreign fans don't hate him anymore but my perception of Korea is still that they're pretty against him doing anything.

On October 21 2015 05:53 r_gg wrote:


comparing community reaction, it's interesting how Korean community is viewing Afreeca to be the big greedy corporate evil and Kespa as the one enforcing justice, while I'm seeing almost a complete opposite in the foreign reaction.

On October 21 2015 06:06 iamho wrote:


The majority of foreign sc fans have never seen the damage that matchfixing can do.

Personally I hope all these matchfixers never make a dime from SC again and the courts force them to pay back every cent they made from matchfixing, even if they have to work it off in their new jobs.

On October 21 2015 06:06 iamho wrote:


The majority of foreign sc fans have never seen the damage that matchfixing can do.

Personally I hope all these matchfixers never make a dime from SC again and the courts force them to pay back every cent they made from matchfixing, even if they have to work it off in their new jobs.

On October 21 2015 06:23 r_gg wrote:


yeah, I wasn't there when it happened, but just reading up on how it ripped the scene apart and how shameless the culprits were after the event is absolutely hearth-breaking.

On October 21 2015 06:35 Clbull wrote:


The ban from streaming sites will do far more than prevent them from making a dime off SC again; it'll prevent them from making a dime from any gaming stream content in general; even if it's purely for entertainment rather than competitive play.

You won't be able to see... say... sAviOr or YoDa pick up Minecraft or DayZ and become a popular streamer in those games; and it's the fact that KeSPA are trying to police their activity outside of professional SC that disgusts me.



How do we know they were shameless? More often than not, we didn't even get to see the culprit's perspectives of the whole scandal. For all we know, the progamers implicated may genuinely be remorseful about their actions.

On October 21 2015 03:36 Clbull wrote:
It actually disgusts me that Twitch have complied with KeSPA's request too, and it's reached the point where I'm tempted to stop using their platform and start investing in Afreeca's.

On October 21 2015 09:41 The_Red_Viper wrote:
No they are not progamers, they are streamers and if people want to watch that (and give money to that) then they can.
Streaming is ONLY entertainment, this isn't competetive gaming.
Blame (if you want) the people who watch these guys then, no matchfixer would get any money from streaming if there wasn't demand to watch it.
The matchfixing problem is largely based on progamers getting not enough money from their teams.
This is a self made problem and if Kespa really cares so much about it, maybe they should try to change that aspect.

On October 21 2015 10:18 Doodsmack wrote:
Kespa is not very concerned with freedom of speech or "innocent until proven guilty".

On October 21 2015 09:29 The_Red_Viper wrote:
And even if you wanna say this is already supporting them, so what? If someone fixed a match he shouldn't be allowed to stream gameplay anymore? Why?
People really have weird point of views here imo

On October 21 2015 09:41 The_Red_Viper wrote:
No they are not progamers, they are streamers and if people want to watch that (and give money to that) then they can.
Streaming is ONLY entertainment, this isn't competetive gaming.
Blame (if you want) the people who watch these guys then, no matchfixer would get any money from streaming if there wasn't demand to watch it.
The matchfixing problem is largely based on progamers getting not enough money from their teams.
This is a self made problem and if Kespa really cares so much about it, maybe they should try to change that aspect.

On October 21 2015 10:26 The_Red_Viper wrote:
1. I am not saying that there will never be greedy people who would still be part of matchfixing even if they have enough money. But having A LOT of players who make literally nothing unless they are part of the elite, well then you practically add to the problem yourself.

2. Yeah sure, that doesn't mean that this money is distributed fairly though.

I am not saying that this step would destroy any matchfixing though, there is much more to it then salary for players, i am just saying it certainly would help though.

On October 21 2015 09:41 The_Red_Viper wrote:
No they are not progamers, they are streamers and if people want to watch that (and give money to that) then they can.
Streaming is ONLY entertainment, this isn't competetive gaming.
Blame (if you want) the people who watch these guys then, no matchfixer would get any money from streaming if there wasn't demand to watch it.
The matchfixing problem is largely based on progamers getting not enough money from their teams.
This is a self made problem and if Kespa really cares so much about it, maybe they should try to change that aspect.

On October 21 2015 10:54 swissman777 wrote:
AfreecaTV should ban match-fixers playing in GSL only. Streaming, I believe, is a different issue.
Streaming has nothing to do with pro-scene and as long as governments and blizzard is unwilling, KesPA should stay in their domain. They are a private enterprise, not a government. The have no right to make people's lives more miserable outside of their jurisdiction.

Plus if you don't want match-fixers ruin the scene and come back and make money off the game, then don't watch it. But if people still want to watch them play, then they have all the right to.

On October 21 2015 22:19 Clonester wrote:


Yeah because the IOC does not allow all olympic dopers after a rather short period of "cooldown" to play in the Olympics....

Oh they do! Thats... rather how it works. And they even do that in South Korea? Park Tae-Hwan anyone?

On October 21 2015 22:43 Clonester wrote:


it does not? The one thing makes people losing to gain money from people who do somethign illegal (betting is totally illegal in korea), the other one gains money by taking winnings with a unfair advantage over fair competiting people... so yes. Doping has worse consequences.

On October 21 2015 02:29 Shuffleblade wrote:

What its about is a player cheating and breaking rules that are very serious within a sport.
I don't know how it works in regular sports because I don't follow it.

But Kespa wants to take away the matchficers opportunity to earn money on SC2 at all.
In my world this is similar to for example is a baseball player that got banned for life tried to become a coach or a trainer, I'm pretty sure that would not be allowed. Even though "that would not make them a progamer" but just a coach or a trainer. Someone that knows toher sports are welcome to chime in but in my mind this is not all-bad. I can see both sides.

The other part of the coin is that streaming is breaking copyright to be frawnk with you, no one is actually allowed to show video of gameplay due to the right to do tha tlies with the company that has the rights to the game. The only ones that uses(abuses) this though is nintendo they ban any video on youtube for example that doesn't pay them money. It is is their right.
So if Blizz don't want them to stream Sc2 its pretty damn easy for them to stop them from doing that if we look at it from a law perspective.

So basically all the arguements you are using are flawed.

On October 22 2015 10:11 ShambhalaWar wrote:


My point is that cheating in a physical sport really isn't much different than match-fixing. If I build a baseball career on cheating, I manipulate the outcome of a game for financial gain. These things happen in other sports such as baseball and the punishment is less in many cases, at least as far as I know.

On October 22 2015 10:16 r_gg wrote:


No cheating and matchfixing are two very different things. One is a federal crime, other is not. Match-fixing is treated with much severe penalty compared to mere cheating. Here is an example from baseball:

Chicago Black Sox Scandal from wikipedia:

The Black Sox Scandal took place during the play of the 1919 World Series. The Chicago White Sox lost the series to the Cincinnati Reds, and eight White Sox players were later accused of intentionally losing games in exchange for money from gamblers. The players were acquitted in court, but nevertheless, they were all banned for life from baseball.

....

After being banned, Risberg and several other members of the Black Sox tried to organize a three-state barnstorming tour. However, they were forced to cancel those plans after Landis let it be known that anyone who played with or against them would also be banned from baseball for life. They then announced plans to play a regular exhibition game every Sunday in Chicago, but the Chicago City Council threatened to cancel the license of any ballpark that hosted them.[5]