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Elentos
55456 Posts
On October 20 2015 19:47 sumsaR wrote: Stop being fucking silly kespa. What's next, contact their ISPs to demand they turn their internet access off so they can't play games? The biggest providers in South Korea do sponsor KeSPA teams, you know.  | ||
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Clonester
Germany2808 Posts
On October 20 2015 18:30 Rekrul wrote: kespa should ban more than 3% of the matchfixers from their own leagues before they make these demands You will never clean out matrchfixing. Making 5k$ or more with just one match losing is more money, then most progamers make in month or even a year! All B-Teamers waste their youth and education for gaming each day all day without a real payment and no chance of earning money via gaming in a top heavy industry which pays pros alot + alot for the first place. Yes alot of Pros, B-Teamer or not, will not matchfix anytime in their carrier, but not all will have this high moral standards. The scene builds on matchfixing in the moment, as this is one of the only chances to gain atleast a bit of revenue from your investet youth if you are not a top of the top players. This anti matchfixing campaign was only focused on prime team, there will be much more and below the water they didnt find. If you are working intelligent and nobody involved starts talking (gets even more greedy and takes the money kespa offers for talking about matchfixing) you wount find out. | ||
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Shuffleblade
Sweden1903 Posts
On October 20 2015 20:04 Apoteosis wrote: Kespa is not a private corporation; it is a government agency, especifically, it is a part of the State Administration. So, if they order or request a private corporation to prohibit someone for use their services (which is the case): 1.- Kespa should have that prerrogative: by an explicit act (Congress act, specifically, not government regulation of any sort), stated previously to the misdemeanor. 2.- If they lack legal authorisation, they should occur to the nearest Court, to get the order from the judge. Why is that? Because otherwise, Kespa will be infinging the following fundamental rights (or human rights): 1.- Afreeca's right to freely do business (economic liberty), that comprehends the capacity of giving his own terms of use, as long as they respect the law. And mainly, the liberty of selling any kind of goods and services to any individual, regardless of his gender, race, etc. 2.- Accused's right to not be punished twice for the same facts (non bis in idem). So, if the law says that a given crime will get a determinate punishment, the State can't add another negative consequence to that unless is the law that allows it (which is the case of accesory sentences like, in addition to jail time, prohibition of exerting a given activity). 3.- Administration's principle of legality, that is, basically, the submission of all the public organs to the law. Anything that the Adminsitration does or don't do should be stated previously in the law, and they can't do anything past the law. This is a guarantee to the particulars at the same time it is a limit to the State. well, that's it (sorry for my bad english, i'm a lawyer in my origin country and I lack the specific terms for some words in English) You say that "if they order or request" but your points seem to more indicate this is the rules that would be valid if Kespa ordered and not requested. I find it very peculiar Kespa would violate Afreecas right to freely do business by requesting them to ban the matchfixers. To me that sounds like I would be infringing someones right of speach if I asked them to stop talking, maybe thats because I don't know the laws behind this but to me this sounds silly. I also believe you contradrict yourself, you state Afreeca has a right to freely do business (in my country that also entails choosing to not sell a service to anyone they wish, not just who to sell to but also who not to sell to) but also say that if Afreeca bans them then they break the legality principle of "non bis in idem". All you say sounds valid if Kespa tries to force the issue against Afreecas will and without Blizzard backing but if Afreeca agrees to ban B4 and Yoda then they the right to do that right? Since they have a right to choose who get to use their service. The statement that Afreeca refuses (even though not translated atm) seems to only be about the bw matchfixers we don't know their stance with Yoda and B4. | ||
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Firkraag8
Sweden1006 Posts
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Elentos
55456 Posts
On October 20 2015 21:33 Firkraag8 wrote: Let's ban them from watching StarCraft on TV or hell even using the subway or whatever they use if they want to watch a game live.. This is ridiculous, they're banned from playing official matches already, for life and that's enough.. It's not about them watching streams for fun, it's about them streaming for money? | ||
Ragnarork
France9034 Posts
On October 20 2015 21:55 Elentos wrote: It's not about them watching streams for fun, it's about them streaming for money? Which is, exactly like what he says, something completely unrelated to KeSPA and pro-gaming, so why the fuck? | ||
digmouse
China6323 Posts
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brickrd
United States4894 Posts
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wjat
385 Posts
Here guys it what we call a dilemma. What is the best solution? | ||
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Hier
2391 Posts
On October 20 2015 12:15 Waxangel wrote: It's totally enforceable if they get Blizzard to tell Afreeca to kill those streams. You remember that time like six years ago, when KeSPA tried to argue that broadcast rights belonged to anyone BUT the developer of the game? Remember how that shit ended? Yup, it was settled out of court, with no official ruling. There's still no legal precedence, only vaguely agreed upon rules of conduct between a broadcaster and a developer. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
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ShambhalaWar
United States930 Posts
On October 20 2015 13:13 BreAKerTV wrote: They want to completely eradicate anyone who may have participated in match-fixing. I think in this case they are banning those guys from the Brood War match-fixing to make an example of them and the match-fixers caught yesterday. This is KeSPA coming out and saying, "We will destroy your legacy. Now when people think of you, they will only think of the terrible thing that you did. They won't think of you streaming the other day, they'll think of how you threw games for money." Personally, in some ways, I really do think this is going too far. It's abusing power for vengeance, nothing more. As if jail time isn't enough punishment. Just to restate my perspective, I'm completely against it. | ||
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ybjoony
Korea (South)15 Posts
And I fully support Kespa for this move, both to discourage more players from being involved in match fixing and to punish those who participated. The very definition of being "PRO" is "paid to participate in a sport or activity" according to merriam and webster dictionary. According to that, those afreeca streamers are pros in their own right, and I don't think those who have been proven to be not deserving of the name "pro" to be in the industry anymore. Also, as far as I know, many korean esports fans despise them too(well, most people in sc and sc2 gallery in dcinside, pgr, inven and fomos, most prominent of korean esports websites) and don't want to see those matchfixers from earning any income from sports they defiled. About the scale of the ban, I am okay with them as long as they don't gain any income from playing eSports; I am okay with them playing with their friends, okay even with them streaming as long as they don't get any money - which is not the case on Afreeca streamers. There are also precedence in other sports match fixing in korea where people who matchfixed are banned in other related organizations too- Park hyun-jun, a baseball player banned for matchfixing in 2012 couldn't get to other leagues such as MLB, NPB or CPBL(taiwan league), and was working in his father's pub until recently, when he went to Dominica to play baseball - apparently they don't have agreements with KBO - but nothing stops them from asking dominicans to ban him(although it is up to them whether to accept or not) Choi-sung kuk, biggest name on soccer match fixing, is working in a hospital(cashier, I think) now because he couldn't get to any other leagues that are registered in FIFA(I saw an article that he was trying to go to marcedonian league, but couldn't because KFA appealed to FIFA to block). So, conclusion? 1. It is entirely within Kespa's rights to ask for bans from other organizations, and use whatever tools in their shed to let their will known. 2. If it goes to public opinion in Korea, it is most likely that kespa's stance will be supported. 3. There is precedence of other known matchfixers who are effectively blocked from playing for money in the industry | ||
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ShambhalaWar
United States930 Posts
On October 20 2015 23:11 Big J wrote: Blizzard and KeSPA should just boycott afreeca in whatever way they can. Afreeca is free to pull that shit, but blizzard and KeSPA should do everything in their power to get Starcraft out of this garbage, including choosing other streaming services for anything they do, or they may just bury the game on their own. You should read the op again, I'm not sure you understood what's happening. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 20 2015 23:15 ShambhalaWar wrote: You should read the op again, I'm not sure you understood what's happening. I'm pretty sure I understood. And as I see it, afreeca is free to not cooperate with a friendly request. But KeSPA and blizzard are also free to use whatever power they have to keep Starcraft and its players away from afreeca. And I think they should use that power under these circumstances. | ||
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deacon.frost
Czech Republic12125 Posts
On October 20 2015 23:14 ybjoony wrote: I think what many people are missing is that Kespa isn't breaking any law - they can't enforce anything outside their org, true, and they are asking for cooperation. Seeing that Afreeca said no, it is entirely up to them if they want to appeal to blizzard or try and create public uproar, or threaten to withdraw their players from GSL if afreeca doesn't comply. They are not breaking any laws by doing that. And I fully support Kespa for this move, both to discourage more players from being involved in match fixing and to punish those who participated. The very definition of being "PRO" is "paid to participate in a sport or activity" according to merriam and webster dictionary. According to that, those afreeca streamers are pros in their own right, and I don't think those who have been proven to be not deserving of the name "pro" to be in the industry anymore. Also, as far as I know, many korean esports fans despise them too(well, most people in sc and sc2 gallery in dcinside, pgr, inven and fomos, most prominent of korean esports websites) and don't want to see those matchfixers from earning any income from sports they defiled. About the scale of the ban, I am okay with them as long as they don't gain any income from playing eSports; I am okay with them playing with their friends, okay even with them streaming as long as they don't get any money - which is not the case on Afreeca streamers. There are also precedence in other sports match fixing in korea where people who matchfixed are banned in other related organizations too- Park hyun-jun, a baseball player banned for matchfixing in 2012 couldn't get to other leagues such as MLB, NPB or CPBL(taiwan league), and was working in his father's pub until recently, when he went to Dominica to play baseball - apparently they don't have agreements with KBO - but nothing stops them from asking dominicans to ban him(although it is up to them whether to accept or not) Choi-sung kuk, biggest name on soccer match fixing, is working in a hospital(cashier, I think) now because he couldn't get to any other leagues that are registered in FIFA(I saw an article that he was trying to go to marcedonian league, but couldn't because KFA appealed to FIFA to block). So, conclusion? 1. It is entirely within Kespa's rights to ask for bans from other organizations, and use whatever tools in their shed to let their will known. 2. If it goes to public opinion in Korea, it is most likely that kespa's stance will be supported. 3. There is precedence of other known matchfixers who are effectively blocked from playing for money in the industry Your examples are invalid. E-sport != sport. The streaming platform makes a huge difference. They are effectively blocked from playing for money. If the players who you named could stream their activities for so much money they would. Also in sport you have a salary. They had nothing. Maybe we want to start treating players a little bit better before we start destroying their lives with harsh punishments... Edit> It's pathetic to me. We know that teams treat players like slaves and yet we want players to behave like a full payed pro... WTF?! Am I the only one who sees an error here? | ||
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Elentos
55456 Posts
On October 20 2015 21:59 Ragnarork wrote: Which is, exactly like what he says, something completely unrelated to KeSPA and pro-gaming, so why the fuck? People who severely damaged the scene, as well as the integrity of the game, being allowed to make a living by streaming that exact game. How is that fine? | ||
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ybjoony
Korea (South)15 Posts
On October 20 2015 23:25 deacon.frost wrote: Your examples are invalid. E-sport != sport. The streaming platform makes a huge difference. They are effectively blocked from playing for money. If the players who you named could stream their activities for so much money they would. Also in sport you have a salary. They had nothing. Maybe we want to start treating players a little bit better before we start destroying their lives with harsh punishments... Edit> It's pathetic to me. We know that teams treat players like slaves and yet we want players to behave like a full payed pro... WTF?! Am I the only one who sees an error here? Esports industry as a whole is trying to fit into sports scene. One aspect of that is their participation in national sports competition(jeon-guk chejeon, 전국체전 in korean) - so it is your stance that is apart from what these people are trying to achieve. Also, they do have salaries, although I acknowledge that it is meagre amount - and the treatment of the players leaves a lot to be desired. However, it is not okay for players to resort to illegitimate means to better their income. Korean esports scene already lost one chance in establishing player union when savior matchfixing happened, which arguably led to this state, and now, it is hard to argue for better treatments when the scene is much smaller compared to what we used to have in BW days. And you seem to be forgetting an important point : those progamers who are slaved away as you so eloquently put it are in there because they chose to. They stay in there because they chose to do so, not because they are forced against their will to play - you can always quit and try your chances elsewhere. General player treatment in minors or B-teams are pretty pathetic - just look at MLB, established league for more than hundred years, yet how much they pay their minor leaguers? http://ftw.usatoday.com/2014/03/minor-leaguers-working-poor-lawsuit-mlb-bud-selig According to this article, from $600 to $1500 a month in 5 month season, not including housing, food in home games or supplies - like bats and gloves(which, all are provided to B-teamers, including public keyboard, computer and mouse) P.S Prime was much worse than that, I know, but we are talking about general proscene here. | ||
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ShambhalaWar
United States930 Posts
On October 20 2015 23:14 ybjoony wrote: I Being banned in other leagues of professional play for that particular sport is understandable because they are associate with the sport he cheated in, and competing in sports is the same as being a pro-gamer. It is an electronic sport that a programer competes in. However, being a "streamer" isn't the same as a being a pro-gamer. MC isn't a pro-gamer anymore, he is considered a "professional streamer." While he streams starcraft content nobody considers him a pro-gamer anymore, he is retired. If I make youtube videos and the content is me playing sc2 against other people, that makes me a youtuber and no youtuber is considered a professional gamer (unless they play in professional competition). I don't think people should be banned from being professional streamers because they cheated at a sport. sport |spôrt| noun 1 an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment: team sports such as baseball and soccer | (as modifier sports) : a sports center. An E-sport. An "professional e-sport" is a game both team play in competition for money, which leaves a slightly blurred line. If you play sc2 on stream, you will most likely be competing against others on ladder. However, nobody you compete against will be earning any money from the competition (unless they are streaming, and then the money is ONLY for their stream content and not for the "competition"). You as the streamer might also earn no money because the vast majority of people that stream on twitch don't get ANY money. My guess is you would also be fine with him streaming other games like mariokart, but you don't want him streaming sc2? If he is banned from streaming, they are banning his rights to do any form of streaming, which isn't professional exports. To me this feels more like kespa saying, "Oh you really like the noodles at the stir fry place on the corner, well funny cause I know the owner and guess what your not welcome there." How would you feel if kespa petitioned blizzard to ban his ip from any form of play? I still think a streamer is a streamer and a programer is a programer. Nobody calls a streamer a programer, unless they actually are in active competition and even then, they aren't "competing" on stream. Pro-gamers stream their practice or a lesson, not competition (Showmatch or Tourny is always put on by someone other than that streamer). Imo an action like this doesn't prevent or deter anyone from match-fixing, it just strips more personal rights. Also, isn't jail and a lifetime ban enough punishment for fixing 4 or 1 match? Most or all professional athletes that took steroids didn't even go to jail, and they built entire careers off it, like lance armstrong. How much money did he make based off manipulation? Millions more than anyone in this petty scandal, and never went to jail and kept it all. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16203 Posts
On October 20 2015 23:30 Elentos wrote: People who severely damaged the scene, as well as the integrity of the game, being allowed to make a living by streaming that exact game. How is that fine? if they were making a giant tonne of money as Pete Rose was i could see your point. the guys cheating in SC2 are making very little money and are easily influenced by even a small amount of cash. a minimum wage worker will instantly change jobs as soon as they get a $2/hour raise some place else an experienced software project manager would laugh in your face if you offered him/her a job for $2/hour more and expected him/her to jump ship based on the raise in pay. what Pete Rose did was disgusting .. these poor dudes playing and cheating in SC2 competitions for " a living" .. i just feel sorry for them. | ||
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