|
Canada11218 Posts
Neal Stephenson has suggested that while any definition will be simplistic there is a general cultural difference between literary and genre fiction, created by whom the author is accountable to. Literary novelists are typically supported by patronage via employment at a university or similar institutions, with the continuation of such positions determined not by book sales but by critical acclaim by other established literary authors and critics. Genre fiction writers seek to support themselves by book sales and write to please a mass audience.
I don't see how this is a particularly useful definition of literary fiction in anything but except literary fiction in it's current state. However, you argue that literary fiction was the only fiction for most of its life. But this doesn't seem describe Shakespeare (the patronage seems more legal protection than much monetary support), Tolstoy, or really anyone writing after the printing press. And pre-printing press, things get a little more difficult to track down exactly who wrote it and what were there circumstances.
The idea that literary fiction is the least read and most secluded compared to the other genres also cannot stand, since what is understood as literary fiction was in fact the only fiction for much of its life and was embraced by the populace as such. It is in fact much easier to argue that something classified as science fiction or fantasy are the segregated genres since they arose as a subset of fiction. This, I can't agree with. What is The Tempest or Midsummer's Dream, if not fantasy. Or the Fairy Stories- Dame Ragnelle, Sir Orfeo, and Sir Launfal- if not fantasy. What is Beowulf for that matter? Or to go more recently- Dickens was most not privy to patronage, but lived by his profits. And very often the new was opposed by the old in academia. Hell, there was an internal struggle in the Oxford English department over whether Shakespeare should be in the syllabus because all the Middle English and Anglo Saxon professors wanted nothing to do with modern English stories.
This question of what is literature, and what is literary fiction, has bothered me for some time, but I have not yet found a satisfying answer. One thing I've never understood is the separation of literary fiction from genre fiction as though it was an entity unto itself. The entire idea of genre is simply categorization. So the entire notion that literary fiction is beyond categorization seems nonsensical. It may be it's own category that is fairly wide in scope, but I don't how it can move beyond a category. Because in reality a lot 'genre' authors see genre classification as simply a way of the bookstores needing a way place books together and so that like-minded readers can find their books. But a lot of authors struggle with getting their books pigeon holed either by genre or by age category. It's just that literary fictionists have controlled the debate by defining the terms that best suit their own interests.
A lot of time, I have seen literary fiction proponents claim that they are not limited by the structures or rules of genre fiction. However, if genre fiction (aka fantasy and sci fi) are outside literary fiction, then literary fiction has its own set of constraints. Is the world author created? Can't be literary fiction. Constraint on place. Is it in a fictionalized future? Can't be literary fiction. Constraint on time, etc, etc. Every time a literary fictionist defines what can or cannot be literary fiction by anything other than the quality of writing and intellectual thought, it is in fact a constraint that literary fiction is operating on.
There is neither wall nor edict nor anything of substance delineating literary fiction from pulp fiction beyond what you imagine there to be Maybe there is not anymore (doubtful if people like J Jones are running around.) Certainly, I am seeing more and more course offered to study Tolkien, science fiction, and a variety other previously untouched works. However, the nearly wholesale dismissal of fantasy and science fiction is not simply an imagined persecution complex. It very much was, and likely still is a real phenomenon within the university walls.
Even your vaunted Frankenstein was viewed with condescending eye, "saying poorly what the canonical male Romantic poets were saying well." "one of those second-rate works" DW Harding, "written under the influence of more distinguished minds." "a passive reflection of some of the wild fantasies" Mario Praz. Harold Bloom talks about it as a flawed novel with frequent clumsiness. "Because it lacks the sophistication and imaginative complexity of such (Blake, Byron) works, Frakenstein affords a unique introduction to the archetypal world of the Romantics." In other words, Frankenstein plays the 'me too' younger sibling to the true geniuses of the age. This sort of damning with faint praise, I don't think was atypical of fantasy and science fiction as a whole; and very often such dismissals were the result of NOT reading those works, just as dear J Jones. (Professor Corey Olsen relates that ignorance of such works is often held as a point of pride among English faculty members.)
|
United States15275 Posts
How ironic that Bloom references Blake and Byron, two writers disparaged and spit upon by their own contemporaries. It took centuries for Blake to be considered a seminal figure of the Romantic Age while Byron was more appreciated among Europeans.
|
Baa?21242 Posts
On September 02 2015 10:17 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +Neal Stephenson has suggested that while any definition will be simplistic there is a general cultural difference between literary and genre fiction, created by whom the author is accountable to. Literary novelists are typically supported by patronage via employment at a university or similar institutions, with the continuation of such positions determined not by book sales but by critical acclaim by other established literary authors and critics. Genre fiction writers seek to support themselves by book sales and write to please a mass audience.
I don't see how this is a particularly useful definition of literary fiction in anything but except literary fiction in it's current state. However, you argue that literary fiction was the only fiction for most of its life. But this doesn't seem describe Shakespeare (the patronage seems more legal protection than much monetary support), Tolstoy, or really anyone writing after the printing press. And pre-printing press, things get a little more difficult to track down exactly who wrote it and what were there circumstances. I explicitly stated that this discussion is limited to the novel. Shakespeare precedes that, and worked in wholly different formats.
Is the definition in its current state not what is most immediate and relevant to us for the purposes of this discussion? This entire issue arose from the fact that literary fiction is a modern invention, and has changed in meaning from centuries ago.Show nested quote +The idea that literary fiction is the least read and most secluded compared to the other genres also cannot stand, since what is understood as literary fiction was in fact the only fiction for much of its life and was embraced by the populace as such. It is in fact much easier to argue that something classified as science fiction or fantasy are the segregated genres since they arose as a subset of fiction. This, I can't agree with. What is The Tempest or Midsummer's Dream, if not fantasy. Or the Fairy Stories- Dame Ragnelle, Sir Orfeo, and Sir Launfal- if not fantasy. What is Beowulf for that matter? Or to go more recently- Dickens was most not privy to patronage, but lived by his profits. And very often the new was opposed by the old in academia. Hell, there was an internal struggle in the Oxford English department over whether Shakespeare should be in the syllabus because all the Middle English and Anglo Saxon professors wanted nothing to do with modern English stories. Again, this is limited strictly to the prose part of fiction. But if we were to delve back further into the literary tradition, then my point that there is no separation between literary fiction and fantasy/etc. is proven all the more by your examples.
The conflict between the old and the new should not be taken as a parallel to the "literary fiction" vs. "genre fiction" debate, but people wil often try to conflate the two in an attempt to bolster their own points and/or muddy the waters.This question of what is literature, and what is literary fiction, has bothered me for some time, but I have not yet found a satisfying answer. One thing I've never understood is the separation of literary fiction from genre fiction as though it was an entity unto itself. The entire idea of genre is simply categorization. So the entire notion that literary fiction is beyond categorization seems nonsensical. It may be it's own category that is fairly wide in scope, but I don't how it can move beyond a category. Because in reality a lot 'genre' authors see genre classification as simply a way of the bookstores needing a way place books together and so that like-minded readers can find their books. But a lot of authors struggle with getting their books pigeon holed either by genre or by age category. It's just that literary fictionists have controlled the debate by defining the terms that best suit their own interests. But again, my point is that no one categorizes literary fiction as literary fiction besides the people who are railing against it. The creation of a false enemy to rebel against in an attempt to add credibility and garner popular support for your own movement is the source of this lamentable enmity between the "two."A lot of time, I have seen literary fiction proponents claim that they are not limited by the structures or rules of genre fiction. However, if genre fiction (aka fantasy and sci fi) are outside literary fiction, then literary fiction has its own set of constraints. Is the world author created? Can't be literary fiction. Constraint on place. Is it in a fictionalized future? Can't be literary fiction. Constraint on time, etc, etc. Every time a literary fictionist defines what can or cannot be literary fiction by anything other than the quality of writing and intellectual thought, it is in fact a constraint that literary fiction is operating on. Who are these literary fiction proponents that always get trotted out? Trolls like Jonathan Jones? They are not at all representative of any sort of establishment or any sort of serious literary studies. My very point is that there is no such thing as literary fiction vs. genre fiction beyond what you say there is.Show nested quote +There is neither wall nor edict nor anything of substance delineating literary fiction from pulp fiction beyond what you imagine there to be Maybe there is not anymore (doubtful if people like J Jones are running around.) Certainly, I am seeing more and more course offered to study Tolkien, science fiction, and a variety other previously untouched works. However, the nearly wholesale dismissal of fantasy and science fiction is not simply an imagined persecution complex. It very much was, and likely still is a real phenomenon within the university walls. It is imaginary. You yourself raised examples of the fantastical in the literary tradition that are firmly entrenched in the canon. You can't say that these are examples of fantasy/genre/etc. while simultaneously saying that they are excluded from the canon. You're far more likely to find "fans" of fantasy denying Shakespeare is fantasy than you to find serious students of Shakespeare who deny the fantastical elements within the plays.Even your vaunted Frankenstein was viewed with condescending eye, "saying poorly what the canonical male Romantic poets were saying well." "one of those second-rate works" DW Harding, "written under the influence of more distinguished minds." "a passive reflection of some of the wild fantasies" Mario Praz. Harold Bloom talks about it as a flawed novel with frequent clumsiness. "Because it lacks the sophistication and imaginative complexity of such (Blake, Byron) works, Frakenstein affords a unique introduction to the archetypal world of the Romantics." In other words, Frankenstein plays the 'me too' younger sibling to the true geniuses of the age. This sort of damning with faint praise, I don't think was atypical of fantasy and science fiction as a whole; and very often such dismissals were the result of NOT reading those works, just as dear J Jones. (Professor Corey Olsen relates that ignorance of such works is often held as a point of pride among English faculty members.) It is largely irrelevant what individuals say about a work, especially since it is firmly within canon status. Calling it flawed is not dismissal, and no one attacks Frankenstein for its fantastical and genre-y elements, but rather on other perceived metrics of quality and aesthetics and whatnot. And to equate legitimate engagements with Frankenstein with Jonathan Jones not reading a book and going on a clickbaitey rant is absurd. Are you insinuating that Harold Bloom never read Frankenstein? Because that's what you are hinting towards with the comparison.
|
Canada11218 Posts
Sorry, the dismissal without reading referred to fantasy generally, and Tolkien specifically. I was not accusing of Bloom of not reading Frankenstein. I doubt I could find you quotes from public reviews from professors as this largely behind the scenes (related by professors that have decided to study Tolkien anyways, such as C Olsen or Tom Shippey.) Of course there is always the Edmund Wilson's "Ooh, Those Awful Orcs!"
Literary Gatekeepers and the Fabril Tradition - Tom Shippey on the dismissal of Science Fiction in academia.
|
Canada11355 Posts
On September 01 2015 05:40 Zealously wrote: I promptly refuse to believe that Deadhouse Gates does not possess literary merit of its own, a slew of insights into the human condition and the nature of war, just as I refuse to believe that Marquez was an objectively better writer than Pratchett.
I felt the need to reply just for this reason: + Show Spoiler +
Discworld is the next series I'm going to read, though I still have a way to go on the malazan series.
Neat blog, most of it went over my head but I agree with your thoughts on what is considered teachable.
|
Interesting read. I definitely agree that "literary" is an adjective whose meaning seems to be buried in this sort of weird notion of contrived je ne sais quoi artsy-ness. My favorite lit classes in college were the ones where the professors could actually show students a way to emerge from reading a text with something meaningful, often by really getting into the characters and, where applicable, the social context of the piece. Unfortunately, those were few and far between.
I don't know if I would call "literary" a genre in itself, though. I think most genres can be literary or have literary merit. Which I'm pretty sure the OP alludes to already. Anyway semantics.
|
Baa?21242 Posts
>tfw Zealously said he'd respond BUT STILL HASN'T YET
;-;
|
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On September 02 2015 06:36 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2015 05:40 Zealously wrote:Literary Fiction is a buzzword. Or at least, that is what it has become. Agreed.Before I move beyond that opinion, let us look at the definition of the term: Literary fiction is a term principally used for certain fictional works that hold literary merit. In other words, they are works that offer deliberate social commentary, political criticism, or focus on the individual to explore some part of the human condition. Literary fiction is deliberately written in dialogue with existing works created with the above aims in mind. Literary fiction is focused more on themes than on plot. [1] Fine, but misleading. Literary fiction is, as you pointed out, a buzzword. It's deliberately nebulous, and a work of "literary fiction" may have all, some, or none of the listed characteristics. Since you lifted the definition from Wikipedia, I'd like to point you to the "Alternative Definition" on the same page-
Neal Stephenson has suggested that while any definition will be simplistic there is a general cultural difference between literary and genre fiction, created by whom the author is accountable to. Literary novelists are typically supported by patronage via employment at a university or similar institutions, with the continuation of such positions determined not by book sales but by critical acclaim by other established literary authors and critics. Genre fiction writers seek to support themselves by book sales and write to please a mass audience.
I much prefer this definition because the intent and goal and "deliberations" of a work are notoriously difficult to ascertain. "Accountability" is also difficult, but the rest of Stephenson's definition stems more from empirical observation and is far less contentious and loaded, in my opinion. In a word, one could describe literary fiction as serious. In another, deep. [2] One could, but does that mean one should? One could call literary fiction a plethora of other things as well, why gravitate towards these vague terms that carry connotations of differences in quality and merit?On a fundamental level, literary fiction is regarded as the antithesis of pulp fiction, the polar opposite written for the value of entertainment alone. Literary fiction -- in the view of its most vocal supporters -- strives to be something much greater, a manner of entertainment accessible only to those who are willing to think, feel and contemplate. [3] This is a false dichotomy, and points to the heart of what I want to address. I often hear of these “vocal supporters” that strive for something loftier than “pulp fiction,” but where are they in actuality? You yourself go on to point out that “literary fiction is no enemy of popular or pulp fiction, it is merely a genre to itself.” At a glance, literary fiction is no different from any other fiction except for the target audience. As a general rule, literary fiction will never be as widely read as other brands of fiction because literary fiction is not written to be read as widely. It explores something else, whether that something is the deepest reaches of the human condition or the influence of prose on how a story can be told. Of itself, literary fiction is no enemy of popular or pulp fiction, it is merely a genre to itself. [4] See above. I do want to add that “literary fiction will never be as widely read as other brands of fiction” is a patently false statement, and I will elaborate on that in the next section.Unfortunately, literary fiction garners the most zealous of readers. Frequent visitors of Reddit will recognize the snappy one-liner "r/iamverysmart", frequently posted in response to tirades aimed at the followers and fans of brands of fiction that to not subscribe to the banner of the literary. Unsurprisingly but nevertheless disappointingly, literary fiction appears to be the brand of fiction with the most enclosed and segregated readers. Presumptuous as it may be of me to say this, I have not encountered half the number of high-horsed and upstage enthusiasts of popular fiction ( any genre) as I have of their contraries. I grant you that I do not peruse the literary to half the extent that I read Science Fiction or Fantasy (genres often viewed as being of lesser literary merit), but my preconceived notion of literary fiction's most vocal supporters tends to prove true. [5] I do think this is extremely presumptuous. You have constructed here a boogeyman of an elitist ivory tower reader passing judgment and condescension upon the plebeians when no such figure exists. Relating to my earlier point, I am curious about your declaration “literary fiction appears to be the brand of fiction with the most enclosed and segregated readers.” I believe there is a fundamental misconception of what constitutes literary fiction. I think it is pertinent to go through a brief history of the novel – for it is around the novel form that this discussion primarily revolves. “Literature,” as is commonly understood, encapsulates written material over a very long period of human history. Histories, verse, songs, and treatises dominated written media for the majority of that period. Prose fiction in the form of the novel as we know it today is a relatively recent development, only really coming into mainstream prominence in the ~18th – 19th centuries. The very etymology of the word “prose” carries meanings of directness, straightforwardness, and accessibility (this definition lives on in the word “prosaic” for example). What I’m trying to get at is that prose arose concurrently with literacy and higher demands for written material. The novel was never meant for a targeted, elite audience. The term “literary fiction” is likely to conjure up images of English class classics, many (admittedly not all) of which were part of this push towards widespread consumption of literature, and were received as such. Difficult though it may be to imagine today, these classics were not dusty tomes read and discussed by secluded intellectuals, but by the “common folk.”
The idea that literary fiction is the least read and most secluded compared to the other genres also cannot stand, since what is understood as literary fiction was in fact the only fiction for much of its life and was embraced by the populace as such. It is in fact much easier to argue that something classified as science fiction or fantasy are the segregated genres since they arose as a subset of fiction.
I take separate issue with your usage of Reddit as an example, since the Reddit demographic is actually notoriously non-, or even anti-, “literary.” A glance at r/books will show neverending “discussions” on high school readings lists and “pulp fiction” – in fact, it is more common to read an attack on literary elitism on Reddit than a defense!It makes sense that Nobel Prize winners will attract the kind of people that are both more willing to delve deep into the most deeply hidden meanings of the word and to publicize their thoughts far and wide - this is the result of literary fiction's prominence within academia. Many of you will remember the standard college fare of reading aged novels for their literary merit, recall teachers ascribing thoughts and values to stories that did not intend them and were not written to conjure such imagery, parroting critics fifty years their seniors because it is comfortable, secure and, more than anything, easy. I am firmly of the opinion that the works of Harper Lee and other similarly widely read authors -- brilliant though they may be -- are part of a secluded and exclusive tier of novels that live well past their time. They may carry teachings and anecdotes that are of value even today, but this obsession with a shrinking number of authors that remain prominent due to the unwillingness of academic institutions to move beyond them needs to end. [6] Again, a curious example, considering Harper Lee is not considered particularly “literary.” The attack/comment on the Nobel is similarly misleading since the Nobel does not create or bestow literary merit, but rather seeks to recognize it. Your glib comment on “ascribing thoughts and values to stories that did not intend them and were not written to conjure such imagery” is an incredibly outdated criticism since it denies any connection that a reader may have with a work, independent of the author, among a whole host of other issues. I think these observations were levied out of ignorance to what literature and academia actually entails.I am not trying to tell you, or anyone else, that they may not read and enjoy the brand of fiction they feel resonates most strongly with them, or that they may not raise high the standard of their favorite authors, be it for their literary merit or their uncanny ability to make anyone laugh about anything. My issue lies with the people that subscribe to the newsletters of so few, place these rare and (far too often) hard-to-read authors on a pedestal, as if being hard to read or difficult to discern by itself is a boon or an achievement. Anyone can be contrived and long-winded, that feat in itself requires no great deal of literary skill - but only a select few can touch people in few words. Thus, my problem lies with the people -- Jonathan Jones presently chief among these -- that follow an almost preconceived schedule. They will read Austen, Marquez, Bukowski and swear that these produce works that are inherently better. It is a brand of pseudo-intellectualism that I find repugnant. [7] This section exemplifies another all too common, and sadly misguided, attack on “literary fiction,” and it stems from insecurity and anti-intellectualism.
To start, the quality of being “hard to read” is not inherently good or bad, but it is often portrayed as such. And second, there is absolutely no bar of abstruseness that a book must pass before it is considered literary fiction. No reasonable observer would deny the existence of contrived and long-winded works of little merit, but nor would he deny the existence of the inverse, converse, and contrapositive. In addition, that observation is often stretched to claim that difficulty is bad. The fear that we have mistaken inaccessibility for brilliance has rubber banded to the point where people label difficulty as a drivel. On top of the phenomenon's roots in anti-intellectualism, pseudo-intellectualism, and empty polemic, none of this discussion has any correlation with the “literariness” of a book whatsoever!
I will once again take issue with your choice of examples. Austen is part of the aforementioned rise of the novel, and enjoyed moderate (but anonymous) success and readership throughout her lifetime and beyond, with an absolute explosion in popularity in the 20th century, both within academia and within the general populace. Bukowski is as anti-establishment as they come, writing on, and for, “the American lowlife.” I would argue that Bukowski enjoys greater renown amongst the laymen than among the literary academia. Garcia Marquez (it’s a double surname good sir) is both critically and commercially renowned. All three of these authors are in fact “pulp” writers by your earlier definition of “read by a broad audience.”Which brings me to the author that sparked this entire rant: Terry Pratchett. Among all the authors I've read in my life (and I like to think that I've read many more than the average), Pratchett remains one of the most influential. His musings on what it means to be human, on the nature of friendship and the weights of responsibility may be hidden underneath three layers of dry British wit (but then again, is the hidden nature of social and psychological commentary not often tauted as one of the strengths of the literary?), but they are there nevertheless, and they are potent. Pratchett's passing hit me very hard, harder than the death of any other author to take a walk with Death in my life, and any criticism leveled at Sir Terry invokes a response from me that is twice as I should be, yet not half as angry as I deserve to be. I quote: I did flick through a book by him in a shop, to see what the fuss is about, but the prose seemed very ordinary. This utterly absurd notion that the prose of a page is indicative of the quality of an entire lifetime's worth of works whitens my knuckles. I have no qualms or enemies made with literary fiction of itself, but this high-nosed approach to all that isn't literary puzzles me to no end. If these are the kinds of people that consider themselves (and, perhaps, are considered) authorities on what is literary fiction and what is not, is it strange that those who would otherwise find some cursory interest in the works of authors such as Bukowski be scared off? Writers such as Jonathan Jones who fancy themselves the honor guard of the "better" writers are the very ones that drive this wedge in between literary readers and "ordinary" readers. When Jonathan Jones, esteemed literary critic at the Guardian, deems the collected works of Terry Pratchett insufficient and unworthy of his attention despite their ability to captivate the minds and imaginations of millions, to invoke the dreams of generations' worth of children and adults alike, he perpeatuates the stereotype of literary fiction as something out of reach for most common readers, something by nature worth more than the likes of Pratchett and Jordan and Erikson. It's a stereotype I actively despise, and the stereotype -- or so I like to think, from my own high school and college experience -- that prevents greater breadth in literature. I promptly refuse to believe that Deadhouse Gates does not possess literary merit of its own, a slew of insights into the human condition and the nature of war, just as I refuse to believe that Marquez was an objectively better writer than Pratchett. [8] I’m not here to defend Jonathan Jones, since I agree with you that he’s a clickbaiting troll. But I would reiterate that this is not at all reflective of reality or some establishment, either shadowy or prominent, seeking to oppress all works deemed unworthy.The magic of literature -- all kinds -- is in what we make for ourselves. This is one of my strongest convictions. Our thoughts, our reactions, our emotions, these all serve to conjure images that are more potent than anything the writer, no matter his mastery of prose or his insight into the human condition, could ever force onto the paper. The act of devaluing one author because there exists someone else whom you believe to be better, objectively, is a declaration of conflict, of literary war. I do not have to choose between Cook and Erikson any more than I have to choose between Marquez and Pratchett. They all have their individual merits, their unique quirks and masteries that create worlds and brands of enjoyment for me and every other reader. Limiting yourself and voicing your limits extends these boundaries beyond yourself and act to limit everyone else. [9] This is exactly the point I’m getting at – we do not have to choose, and we don’t. The entire separation of literary fiction with pulp/genre/popular fiction is based on false premises. For some odd reason, the readers of popular fiction, by definition a majority, feel threatened by an artificially constructed elitist minority, when in fact the opposite is true. Pratchett and Rowling outsell Joyce and Nabokov by magnitudes, let alone any living “literary” author, and yet readers of popular fiction seem to carry a persecution complex. This persecution complex has led to the creation of this false dichotomy between what is literary and what is pulp, as well as the narrative that one is oppressing the other, when no such reality exists. What is considered literary fiction has never eschewed the elements of genre fiction: from Shelley’s Frankenstein to Ishiguro’s Buried Giant, literary authors are more than happy to incorporate elements of genre fiction without any consideration of even the notion of genre. Shelley wrote Frankenstein, sometimes considered the first modern science fiction novel, long before any of this silly genre/literature/pulp/elitism/etc. debate even existed. There is neither wall nor edict nor anything of substance delineating literary fiction from pulp fiction beyond what you imagine there to be. Works can and should be judged on their contents and not on their labels. In an utopia, that would be the norm. I understand that there are people, such as Jones here, who feel and/or act otherwise, but there are people like this on both “sides” of the “debate,” and they are a minority whom we have allowed to dictate the narrative, to everyone’s detriment. So when you say "Get real. Terry Pratchett is not a literary genius." and masquerade that opinion vaguely as fact, perhaps it would be better to evaluate your insight into the human condition. This belief that tastes are universal, that this limited shelf of books should be read and worshipped forever at the cost of all others, that enjoyment and insight and depth of imagination cannot be found in the works of a greater breadth of writers, it is entirely out of sync with reality.
I've arranged your reply into separate points and will attempt to answer each one to (something approaching) the best of my ability. Do note that this was written almost entirely as a spur-of-the-moment response to a would-be critic shamelessly and baselessly attacking one of my most loved authors, and tone was correspondingly harsh.
[1] Fair enough. Wikipedia's primary definition seemed to correspond more closely with Jones' view on literary fiction. I was unsure whether or not intent felt particularly relevant to the things I initially wanted to say, and I stuck with the first definition.
[2] Perhaps "profound" would have been a better word choice than "serious", but I am firmly of the opinion that all of these words are used much more frequently in the discussion of literary works than they are of genre works. This is, of course, to be expected (particularly given the definition(s) listed above), but it does seem like words such as these are thrown about with somewhat suspicious frequency in the area. Critics -- and I do not read a very wide base of literary critics, so my scope is limited and particularly so, in this case, to Swedish articles -- seem to be very fond of using these words to describe their experiences with literary works, and it felt reasonable to move along those lines.
[3] Pinpointing exactly who or how many these opponents are is difficult because I made a sweeping statement based partly in emotional outrage. I will point you to the manifest stuchiu linked and make the (perhaps false?) claim that the critics, particularly those listed and almost parodied therein, that exclusively occupy themselves with 'literary' works, often carry preconceived notions of genre fiction as being almost automatically of lesser value. The article pair Easy Writers and Genre Fiction is Disruptive Technology explores two different sides of this, and I would argue that Krystal's views, though certainly not unfounded or without arguments, is still fairly prevalent among critics. It has certainly moved in the favor of genre fiction, something I'd be a fool not to recognize, but I don't think the view is entirely fair.
[4] -
[5] I concede that the entire paragraph was clunky and somewhat unfair. Perhaps 'literary fiction' is too broad a term to use in this context? I am not refering to all literary fiction of past, present and future, but rather the brand of literary fiction (which I proceed to attack a few sentences later) which takes roundabout phrasing and snail-moving, contemplative pacing and makes of it something of an art. A Reader's Manifesto above levels criticism at these works in a much more eloquent and researched way than I could, so understand that I am not attacking the entirety of literary fiction but the brand of literary fiction which takes what I believe to be common sense in writing (some measure of straightforwardness and clarity aside prose which does not drag on for the sake of merely being verbose) and turns it on its head for no apparent purpose other than to achieve a rather particular standard.
And perhaps I do overestimate the existence of ivory tower-critics, but I cannot agree with the claim that these do not exist. If nothing else, Jonathan Jones and his (albeit small) band of supporters prove that there exists at least a sub-group of readers happy to pass judgment without reading. How many are they? Three? Fifty? Six thousand? I won't claim to know. I made the argument out of ire, but there is certainly a visible opponent to genre fiction with in the idea that non-literary works cannot compare because they are not literary. Is it a prevalant idea? In some circles, I would think.
[6] You misunderstand my mention of Harper Lee. I'm not discrediting her writing because she ascribed to any of ideals we would consider literary, I'm questioning the (as far as I know very residual) resilience of To Kill a Mockingbird in high school literature. The persistence of school administration's in keeping it is what I was refering to, a work remaining prominent because it is already well-established, well-read and well studied. This relates to my general thoughts on school literature throughout the OP. There are countless other works, literary and otherwise, that could reasonably replace To Kill a Mockingbird, but it seems to have become a case of "we have always done it this way"
Further, I am not attacking the Nobel (I would be an idiot not to recognize the prowess of most authors awarded with the Nobel Prize), my intent was to categorize a group of authors of great literary merit. I could have said "Literary fiction's most recognized writers" and it wouldn't have made a difference - the idea is that critics will flock to these works to find discussion and, in some cases, flaunt their own intelligence and interpretation. And that some of these same critics will use these works to hammer down on the many works they consider far below. I'm sure that the same happens within literary fiction (to the extent that this term can even be used in the context), of course, but I would not take the same offense because I don't have the same investment in most authors on that side of the fence.
[7] I will refer to A Reader's Manifesto and the works studied therein and say that while you are right in that difficulty does not automatically equate to drivel any more than it equates to quality, there must be some demand for a particular kind of obscurity in writing for passages like the following (by McCarthy) to receive not only praise for their profound meaning, but for things such as realistic dialogue.
[They] walked off in separate directions through the chaparral to stand spraddlelegged clutching their knees and vomiting. The browsing horses jerked their heads up. It was no sound they'd ever heard before. In the gray twilight those retchings seemed to echo like the calls of some rude provisional species loosed upon that waste. Something imperfect and malformed lodged in the heart of being. A thing smirking deep in the eyes of grace itself like a gorgon in an autumn pool
Perhaps neither I nor Myers understand McCarthy or what he is trying to say, but given McCarthy's renown and reputation as a man who tackles "issues of life and death 'head-on' ", I am not sure what this says about the author.
As for my choice of examples, you're right in saying that they were poor. Jones mentioned all three, and I was (unfortunately so, because I did enjoy A Hundred Years of Solitude) baited into attacking them instead of others. I will maintain that neither Bukowski nor anyone else are better simply by merit of being themselves. Jones opened a book by Pratchett and found the prose lacking, but you would not open Emma by Austen to have it hinge on the magic of the setting. Different authors will naturally have different strengths, and this idea that some authors -- particularly those of great renown -- are so much better than so vast a majority of authors that you do not even have time to dedicate five minutes to honest reading... Well, consider me baited.
[8] -
[9] Well said. I'm not sure I entirely agree with your view that no such persecution (perhaps against both sides, as you mentioned above) exists, but I appreciate the sentiment. Again, this was written out of a very particular kind of seething rage, one that would happily re-surface if the very same 'critic' turned his eyes on the merit of Robert Jordan, but I do very much appreciate your thoughts.
|
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On September 04 2015 14:29 Fecalfeast wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2015 05:40 Zealously wrote: I promptly refuse to believe that Deadhouse Gates does not possess literary merit of its own, a slew of insights into the human condition and the nature of war, just as I refuse to believe that Marquez was an objectively better writer than Pratchett.
I felt the need to reply just for this reason: + Show Spoiler +Discworld is the next series I'm going to read, though I still have a way to go on the malazan series. Neat blog, most of it went over my head but I agree with your thoughts on what is considered teachable.
You're in for a fucking ride with that one, let me know what you thought afterwards!
|
Canada11355 Posts
On September 06 2015 09:22 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2015 14:29 Fecalfeast wrote:On September 01 2015 05:40 Zealously wrote: I promptly refuse to believe that Deadhouse Gates does not possess literary merit of its own, a slew of insights into the human condition and the nature of war, just as I refuse to believe that Marquez was an objectively better writer than Pratchett.
I felt the need to reply just for this reason: + Show Spoiler +Discworld is the next series I'm going to read, though I still have a way to go on the malazan series. Neat blog, most of it went over my head but I agree with your thoughts on what is considered teachable. You're in for a fucking ride with that one, let me know what you thought afterwards! I've just finished it not 5 minutes ago. I am still feeling the residual emotion from + Show Spoiler [Deadhouse gates spoiler] +the entire scenario involving the high fist of Aren, Pormquol if I recall. My gut is still twisted with rage at the noble who spun lies and the idiotic high fist who walked into a trap. The mappo/Icarium interactions had me on the edge of my seat every time they occurred. I've not been this excited about a fantasy series in a long time. My attention span is normally that of a drunk goldfish, but I was so engrossed in the last quarter of the book that I finished it all at work today. There's no question that I'm starting the next book as soon as I am able.
|
I'm with you on this one, Zealously.
Sure, big chunks of Pratchett's works might be described as pulp fiction and "only" for entertainment. I even find some books not 100% super great,
However, SOME books, storylines and concepts have spoken to my very soul and altered it in mysterious ways while I was distracted laughing my ass off, so to me he's obviously a literary genious.
Now bring me that alligator sandwich - and make it quick.
|
there exists at least a sub-group of readers happy to pass judgment without reading. Those exists, in fair number, among genre reader. It's only that a lot of time, they keep a sort of (undue) respect toward high culture, meaning their words will rarely be direct, but still, pretentious is such an overused word on the internet, and how many times have I read or heard someone disparaging Proust as boring and writing sentences that are too long by someone who had never opened a copy of la Recherche... Also Austen is overrated imo, but that's another story
|
East Gorteau22261 Posts
On September 06 2015 20:15 corumjhaelen wrote:Show nested quote +there exists at least a sub-group of readers happy to pass judgment without reading. Those exists, in fair number, among genre reader. It's only that a lot of time, they keep a sort of (undue) respect toward high culture, meaning their words will rarely be direct, but still, pretentious is such an overused word on the internet, and how many times have I read or heard someone disparaging Proust as boring and writing sentences that are too long by someone who had never opened a copy of la Recherche... Also Austen is overrated imo, but that's another story
Certainly. Perhaps they are even more numerous. I don't mean to imply that this is a problem unique to readers of literary fiction. I know that's how the OP will come off because of my state of mind when I wrote it, but it wasn't actually my intent to do a 180 on the things I criticize 'the others' for doing and place genre fiction writers on a pedestal
|
Deadhouse Gates is what made me start reading for fun after a 10 year hiatus where reading became for me synonymous of school and work. Steven Erikson MVP.
That being said, Jonathan Jones is clearly just some other asshole with a voice trying to make himself relevant by writing controversial shit shortly after the passing of an author. Wish I knew more about literature to understand this whole ordeal better
|
Baa?21242 Posts
On September 06 2015 09:13 Zealously wrote: -
Institutions, groups, individuals, and organizations all have their own prejudices. Ultimately, I think it's unproductive to focus on the irrational biases of a minority. I'm not denying the existence of these fringe viewpoints, but I think the emotion driven defensiveness and victimization is unhelpful for advancing the notion of evaluating works by their own merit, irrespective of arbitrary and protean labels.
It is much better to focus on the, as you admit, increasingly frequent instances of "equality" between "genres," though I would again stress that I think the perceived separation only came about ex post facto (see the points about the fantastical in classic literature). I don't think it is unfair to say many early genre works did not present any particular merit, but I think there is too much conflation between criticism of individual works with criticism of a genre as a whole. It is easy to hide behind the shield of "you only dislike it because it's genre" when an author/fan doesn't want to confront the deficiencies of a work in question (this is, of course, a two way street, since valid criticism of a classic can also be deflected with "you're just blindly attacking classics").
I think it is more useful to look at instances where sci fi and fantasy works were readily accepted into the genre and try to understand the difference in reception. Related to my earlier point, I think defenders of genre are often blind to the high quality works that enjoy acclaim because they're entrenched in this "the establishment is out to get me" mentality. I've cited many examples already, and there are countless more. You have Nobel Laureate Doris Lessing, renowned for her literary works like the Golden Notebook, but who also authored an extensive science fiction sequence, Canopus in Argos. You have authors like Ursula K. LeGuin, Stanislaw Lem, Arkady and Boris Strutgasky enjoying literary canon status among the majority of academia and "high culture." You see writers like Gene Wolfe breaking into the "highbrow" as people look past the trapping of genre to appreciate the literary value within his books.
To a larger, more abstract point, I feel there is often a disconnect in what is meant by the term "literary." Some people approach it as an indicator of quality, while others (even some in this thread) seem to believe anything that involves the written word is literary. At some point, we must simply draw a line in the sand and attribute a meaning to the word literary that makes a separation between different works, for otherwise there'd be no reason for the word to exist. Somewhere along the line, the notion that all men are created equal has swelled to also mean all ideas, opinions, and art are equal, which is something I oppose.
So yes, by some predefined metrics, I think you can easily say writer X is objectively superior to writer Y. It comes down to rules and definitions. So even though "literary fiction" might be a silly genre definition, the quality of being literary is something that is much more "real" insofar as any knowledge can be real. We can go ahead and take a set of traits like adept use of literary techniques and concepts, insight into the human condition, coherence of form and vision, aesthetic value, etc. as signs of literariness. These traits have been extensively studied, theorized on, and debated about, and I think it would be silly, not to mention extremely conceited, for one to dismiss literary studies in academia (just like it would be silly and conceited for the reverse).
So now, perhaps controversially, I will repeat what Jones said: By this definition, Terry Pratchett is not a literary genius. Lest I be painted by the same brush as Jones, I would like to make clear that I have read not unextensively in what is typically considered genre fiction, Pratchett included, (I would hope that I've made this self-evident, but just in case) as well as classic literature. I think much genre fiction does not aim to achieve the same goals as literary fiction; nor do I think it's a true binary but rather a spectrum. If you believe that there is something inherently good about literature that tries to give us insights into what it means to live, into art and aesthetics, into some of the intangible human qualities that seem to have endured throughout the ages, then you can easily equate literariness with superiority. I subscribe to this, but I also recognize and appreciate literature whose goals are to open up the imagination with stories and images and the purely fantastical. I would also argue, and here is the crux of this whole discourse, that works that combine both are objectively better than works that falter in one, or the other, or both of these goals.
I've no qualms stating Garcia Marquez is a stronger writer than Pratchett. Garcia Marquez is not superior to Pratchett because the former is supposedly literary, nor because the latter is supposedly not, but because the former employs the techniques associated with literary fiction and the elements associated with fantasy to effectively achieve the conjuring of emotions, reactions, and images, more so than the latter.They are being evaluated on the exact same scale, with no artificial delineation from snobbery, bias, or prejudice. You may very well disagree, but then we would at least be discussing this within the same framework as we should've from the beginning, and not the compartmentalized room that the genre vs. literature debate tried to force the narrative into.
Literature stems from a human response to life, which exists, in all of its complexities, in three dimensions. Why, then, should we evaluate literature on a two dimensional scale? Even in a world of binaries, my aforementioned spectrum is not a linear one, but rather a planar one, where the axes of the traits that define literary fiction and genre fiction work concurrently to plotting a story that seeks to be good. In actuality, these axes are blurred, mixed, and coiled inextricably, and any attempt to untangle the web of sense is futile.
|
This blog has been an outcry at how some will simply dismiss the entire works of an author as some trivial entertainment, not worthy of any meaningful discussion. We may all fall into the traps of sweeping generalisations that do not really hold true. However I take this blog as a defence of Terry Pratchett and of fantasy/science fiction as it still seems to hold an image of being somehow 'lesser'. Of course we can agree that some authors are stronger than others however arguing over what 'counts' as being within in certain category seems only relevant in how the books are grouped together within a book shop. Dismissing fantasy/science fiction seems as foolish as dismissing books that were written over 100 years ago for not having any relevance for modern society.
Taking this description.
Literary fiction is a term principally used for certain fictional works that hold literary merit. In other words, they are works that offer deliberate social commentary, political criticism, or focus on the individual to explore some part of the human condition. Literary fiction is deliberately written in dialogue with existing works created with the above aims in mind. Literary fiction is focused more on themes than on plot.
Here is a quote from another article.
"Discworld’s venerable creator was also often furious. His books snarled. They railed against today’s storms, its innumerous injustices. Monstrous Regiment lampooned the pointlessness of war. Equal Rites shouted at sexism, Small Gods at the problem of blind faith, Carpe Jugulum the privileged’s proclivity to demean those beneath them."
It would seem Terry Pratchett fits the description? Some parts of his books even provide a commentary on racism/immigration. As it is exploring the cultural differences and frictions between dwarves and trolls and humans among others, it is far more free to explore these difficult topics somewhat free of our established biases. This is one of the great strengths of fantasy/science fiction yet it also seems to be why some would dismiss it. Terry Pratchett uses imagination, intelligence humour and wit to provide entertainment on one level while also having something meaningful to say.
The guardian article seems to being despairing at the public fussing more over Terry Pratchetts death than 'titans of the novel'. Further to his writing. Terry Pratchett very publicly engaged with his own Alzheimers (or more precisely posterior cortical atrophy) and also pushed the discussion on assisted dying into the open. Rather than experience the relentless and inevitable chipping away of everything that it means to be you, to still be alive yet everything of the person that you were to have fading away into nothingness. To choose to end your own physical existence as your 'consciousness' is lost, what greater engagement with the human condition could there be? To attack Terry Pratchett and the public's emotions on his death seems so very small.
This is not an attack on the established 'great works' there is of course good reason to hold them in high regard and I would encourage everyone to read more. Nor is this an argument of which genre to pigeon hole something into. It is simply the frustration on seeing something you like being belittled so casually.
For a better article on Terry Pratchett's last book I would recommend this one.
http://arstechnica.co.uk/the-multiverse/2015/09/the-shepherds-crown-a-quiet-end-to-the-discworld-series/
|
Russian Federation3631 Posts
edit: i probably shouldn't post while slee deprived
|
One Serbian newspapers wrote "Why it is good to watch reality shows?", and their explanation is "Because its lesser stupidity than watching politics". As reality shows is taking massive step on TV's and over population in my country, and newspapers like these, no wonder why literature and informative TV programs and shows are dying in Serbia...
|
|
|
|