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ebwop
On October 14 2014 01:15 jcarlsoniv wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2014 01:00 WaveofShadow wrote:On October 14 2014 00:48 jcarlsoniv wrote:
But here's the thing wave. You took a lead in town position just because your first post was a "follow me to victory" post. You've been very aggressive yes, but you've also been pretty defensive in the face of any criticism. You were incredibly indecisive for the rest of the day, keeping your vote unplaced for longer time than I'd expect after you criticized me early game for not placing my vote. On top of that, you wanted to enact some last minute "shenannies". A scum wave would absolutely know how to manipulate a newbie town, so excuse the town for not trusting your "judgement" thus far. And does any of the above make me scum, good sir? Time to school you as well, I think. Can you show how it's more likely that a scum Wave decided not to vote midday because he didn't want to get caught voting in a bad place rather than me having difficulty deciding? Can you show how being indecisive emulates a scum mindset? Can you show me how it's more likely that I was trying to enact last minute shenannies to somehow further scum ends rather than simply trying to get you guys off a likely town member? I'm not saying it makes you scum. I'm saying that you shouldn't be surprised that everyone isn't just blindly following you. But maybe I'm putting too much stock in how I think a scum wave would know how to play. Show nested quote +Also I'd like you to show me where I criticized you for not voting....cause I can't seem to find it. Maybe you can point it out to me though. You're right, I misremembered the below post. In my head I remembered you pushing harder to get me to vote. My mistake. + Show Spoiler +On October 11 2014 10:08 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2014 10:00 jcarlsoniv wrote:
sic 'em wave
I'm curious who's around tonight What, you're going to let me do all the work? I doubt we'll be lynching scum if I'm the only one voting...care to join me, frand? Oh and Jeffy's recent question reminds me of a setup detail I feel like I should mention even though it's completely unrelated to anything. Actually now that I think about it I think I was going to include it in my intro post as a reason for people to protect the hell out of me tonight but oh well. + Show Spoiler +
In almost every 14-player game I have been a part of on this site, especially those with the possibility of 3P, there were 2 non-town KP on the first night. Since there is no SK this likely means scum will have a vig, 2KP/night (unlikely but possible), or there will be some sort of poisoner. I have been scum in such scenarios and I have actively misled the town before by only allowing them to consider the setup options that were wrong. Just something to consider when N1 happens.
Of course it is also entirely possible I am completely wrong about the above :D
Show nested quote +Personally it looks to me like you're trying to throw tired old arguments at me---mafia buzzwords if you will----without thinking about them at all and assuming people will see 'Oh Wave was hypocritical about voting must be scum' and 'wave is being defensive/throwing his weight around' (I want to see how many times that phrase has come up now and who started using it actually) and look badly upon me.
This is classically known as 'shit-flinging' and it serves two scum purposes: starts fights and serves to create discord and messes with town atmosphere (with the bonus of possibly demoralizing your target---and I'm ashamed to admit it's kind of worked because of the town members who have fallen under its spell), and it possibly sets up said player for a mislynch if people are not willing to look more deeply into the accusations.
What is possible town motivation for 'shit-flinging?' Honestly, can;t think of any. A good town player would sit back and actually consider my actions from both perspectives rather than tossing open-ended suspicion at me, which is what you've been doing all game.
I mean, you can call it shit-flinging if you want, but I'm not the only one who's been suspicious of your play thus far, obviously.
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Join the discussion we're about to have, Alaric. Don't disappear.
+ Show Spoiler +
Regarding me, there's something you didn't quite consider---one, I've never played a game where I was almost the only one with any real experience. Yes paranoia is healthy to some degree, but not at the expense of logic, which is what I believe some people are doing here. Also consider that from my POV (assume I'm town for this) the paranoia is also preventing anyone from actually listening to and considering what I have to say.
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To that end I'm going to go through filters and post my thoughts given the results of last night. I will skim through somewhat quickly, as the thread is fairly large, so link me to anything I may miss about a person. They will come as the day progresses.
At the moment, my two biggest Scum reads are still Wave and LordyT. Partially left over from last night, partially because my reasoning still feels good to me. Wave because what I posted above, LordT for the reasons I discussed yesterday. Additionally:
-his early "role call" was highly suspicious
-His list of players is highly iffy. Knowing that MoonBear was VT and (myself) knowing I am not scum, he noted us as scummy. Knowing that he and Wave are on my watchlist, he noted them as townish. And he calls Alzadar scum for "not paying attention to him", which is very much attention drawing.
-His vote changed plenty enough for me to be suspicious. I understand using votes as pressure, but he jumped to many people I don't find suspicious/think may very well be town, and he helped push the MoonBear train pretty hard.
These two are my top picks atm. Please respond with criticism/discussion, or if you are the accused respond with your rebuttal.
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On October 14 2014 01:16 jcarlsoniv wrote:ebwop Show nested quote +On October 14 2014 01:15 jcarlsoniv wrote:On October 14 2014 01:00 WaveofShadow wrote:On October 14 2014 00:48 jcarlsoniv wrote:
But here's the thing wave. You took a lead in town position just because your first post was a "follow me to victory" post. You've been very aggressive yes, but you've also been pretty defensive in the face of any criticism. You were incredibly indecisive for the rest of the day, keeping your vote unplaced for longer time than I'd expect after you criticized me early game for not placing my vote. On top of that, you wanted to enact some last minute "shenannies". A scum wave would absolutely know how to manipulate a newbie town, so excuse the town for not trusting your "judgement" thus far. And does any of the above make me scum, good sir? Time to school you as well, I think. Can you show how it's more likely that a scum Wave decided not to vote midday because he didn't want to get caught voting in a bad place rather than me having difficulty deciding? Can you show how being indecisive emulates a scum mindset? Can you show me how it's more likely that I was trying to enact last minute shenannies to somehow further scum ends rather than simply trying to get you guys off a likely town member? I'm not saying it makes you scum. I'm saying that you shouldn't be surprised that everyone isn't just blindly following you. But maybe I'm putting too much stock in how I think a scum wave would know how to play. Also I'd like you to show me where I criticized you for not voting....cause I can't seem to find it. Maybe you can point it out to me though. You're right, I misremembered the below post. In my head I remembered you pushing harder to get me to vote. My mistake. + Show Spoiler +On October 11 2014 10:08 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 11 2014 10:00 jcarlsoniv wrote:
sic 'em wave
I'm curious who's around tonight What, you're going to let me do all the work? I doubt we'll be lynching scum if I'm the only one voting...care to join me, frand? Oh and Jeffy's recent question reminds me of a setup detail I feel like I should mention even though it's completely unrelated to anything. Actually now that I think about it I think I was going to include it in my intro post as a reason for people to protect the hell out of me tonight but oh well. + Show Spoiler +
In almost every 14-player game I have been a part of on this site, especially those with the possibility of 3P, there were 2 non-town KP on the first night. Since there is no SK this likely means scum will have a vig, 2KP/night (unlikely but possible), or there will be some sort of poisoner. I have been scum in such scenarios and I have actively misled the town before by only allowing them to consider the setup options that were wrong. Just something to consider when N1 happens.
Of course it is also entirely possible I am completely wrong about the above :D
Personally it looks to me like you're trying to throw tired old arguments at me---mafia buzzwords if you will----without thinking about them at all and assuming people will see 'Oh Wave was hypocritical about voting must be scum' and 'wave is being defensive/throwing his weight around' (I want to see how many times that phrase has come up now and who started using it actually) and look badly upon me.
This is classically known as 'shit-flinging' and it serves two scum purposes: starts fights and serves to create discord and messes with town atmosphere (with the bonus of possibly demoralizing your target---and I'm ashamed to admit it's kind of worked because of the town members who have fallen under its spell), and it possibly sets up said player for a mislynch if people are not willing to look more deeply into the accusations.
What is possible town motivation for 'shit-flinging?' Honestly, can;t think of any. A good town player would sit back and actually consider my actions from both perspectives rather than tossing open-ended suspicion at me, which is what you've been doing all game.
I mean, you can call it shit-flinging if you want, but I'm not the only one who's been suspicious of your play thus far, obviously.
Ok you're not saying it makes me scum. (refusing to take a stance) You're not the only one who thinks I'm suspicious. (shifting blame/deflecting)
What ARE you saying then?
Is there a reason you don't want to commit to a read on me, soniv? Right now. If I'm scum you should come out and fucking say it. If I'm town, do the same. Surely you must think I'm leaning to one side or the other.
Req, I can hold two discussions at once. We don't have to discuss this.
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Also regarding owb, I think he's definitely town(or as close to town as I can feel someone being town). He says enough small new things combined with the old that I can definitely trust him for it. I really like the Asmo read, and some of his smaller comments that make me feel he cares enough about the game to set it in the right direction.
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On October 14 2014 01:20 Requizen wrote:To that end I'm going to go through filters and post my thoughts given the results of last night. I will skim through somewhat quickly, as the thread is fairly large, so link me to anything I may miss about a person. They will come as the day progresses. At the moment, my two biggest Scum reads are still Wave and LordyT. Partially left over from last night, partially because my reasoning still feels good to me. Wave because what I posted above, LordT for the reasons I discussed yesterday. Additionally: -his early "role call" was highly suspicious -His list of players is highly iffy. Knowing that MoonBear was VT and (myself) knowing I am not scum, he noted us as scummy. Knowing that he and Wave are on my watchlist, he noted them as townish. And he calls Alzadar scum for "not paying attention to him", which is very much attention drawing. -His vote changed plenty enough for me to be suspicious. I understand using votes as pressure, but he jumped to many people I don't find suspicious/think may very well be town, and he helped push the MoonBear train pretty hard. These two are my top picks atm. Please respond with criticism/discussion, or if you are the accused respond with your rebuttal.
Be careful with the bolded, because that's confirmation bias. Just because someone is wrong, doesn't make them scum (and from my POV, he isn't even necessarily wrong about all of it). As for 'attention drawing' do you think scum typically want to be in the spotlight or avoid it? That also goes for vote switching: why do you think scum is more likely to flip flop in votes? I think I discussed this before but that's a pretty common misunderstanding of mindsets---yes scum are likely to try and jump bandwagons and whatnot but to do so constantly draws attention to their voting patterns. I believe that town is more likely to be switching votes constantly as they are always (and should be) re-evaluating reads constantly/ applying pressure, and most of all they are the one who should not care at all about what they look like to others.
I also think you should go back and consider what I wrote about LT/MB interaction. Does it make sense for LT to remove his vote as scum from a likely town mislynch when he did?
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On October 14 2014 01:14 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2014 23:55 WaveofShadow wrote:On October 13 2014 23:29 Requizen wrote:
Maybe it's just early for a lot of people, but this thread should not be this dead during the night. Town needs to be discussing the action for the next day and posting discussion about yesterday's failed lynching.
I have a large post coming soon, don't make me double. Oh hmm. I wonder why it's so quiet. Better lynch me tomorrow guys, I'm only around to spread chaos and discord. Now you sound like day 1 Req.  Other than that... welp. I was going to feel bad about lynching Moonbear (although more because his post upon returning seemed to imply RL stuff in the way of him playing) but then there was this Isaac-styled Night post and I had to laugh. Damnit Dandel. I still stand by my choice not to switch my vote, not because I necessarily think Ghandi is town too but because of the mess that discussion caused. I've got some opinions, but there's potential for them to drastically change once night actions are revealed so I'll keep the analysis/"update" for tomorrow. As for what happened in-between, few things I'd like to point out: Alzadar, not that I think you defending Wave is suspicious, but at this point I don't think it'll bring much. Since our goal isn't to keep the whole town alive but to lynch scum, it's better for us to accuse than to protect. The exception is when we're close to the deadline and we believe the current lynch is a contributing certified-town; the next deadline is 50+ hours away and I personally don't think Wave's in any real danger to be lynched, so we're better off letting that slide for now.  Cixah is most likely certified townie. If I understand the roles well, as scum the best he could do would be to convince a vigilante to shoot a townie tonight, then get lynched day 2 (a poisoner would be able to cancel his kill night 2 upon seeing Cixah flip red). That means we can be sure of Cixah's intentions whenever he posts, and there's never going to be any point to challenge them. However that doesn't mean that everything he says is right. I'm not saying I find your reads useless or wrong Cixah, I just want to remind people so as to reduce the chances of sheeping/bandwagoning using your certified status as an excuse. I consider no one certified, but 6er is low on my watchlist. The IC claim was strange, but understandable.
Acutally strike that. I need to read his filter. IC is totes a strange claim, but if you take it from the perspective that he is scum: everyone is claiming VT and/or complaining about people claiming VT - he claims IC in response, makes him stand out of the crowd, but doesn't draw attention as much as other claims. Subtle, if scum. Otherwise luck/town.Wave, as the post I quoted indicates, you're acting a bit contrary to what I expected from you-especially because you're a vet and you've probably dealt with mafia noobs already. Could be you having a lot on your plate lately (you seemed to imply so in the offtopic GD) and I can understand that. However, if you're feeling frustrated because you're getting your experience challenged by the very ignorants you're trying to raise properly, think of it as training for the pebble's teen years. Could also be you exaggerating (because you still don't like the way we play) to amplify the whole situation and get bigger reactions from us. Your and especially Tolkien's behaviour over day 1 made me more aware of these possibilities. In that case I'm wondering what kind of reaction you're trying to cause exactly. (For the record I'm leaning toward the latter, also because being paranoid seems like a healthy mindset atm, I just wanted to make the joke. At least I didn't accuse you of WIFOMing us with the "do you think I'm good enough to mastermind you all?" instead. ;p) Show nested quote +On October 14 2014 00:56 Requizen wrote:
That said, I think my focus has been too largely on Wave lately. This in and of itself makes me think Scum, using himself as a distraction for other Scum.
Time to go into filters and weed out my town. I'm a bit perplexed by the association "I pay too much attention to Wave" => "Wave is scummy". I mean, he can certainly try to manipulate people in that direction, but whether or not you fall for it depends on you more than on him, don't you think? Just a quick observation, I agree with your intention to broaden who you're looking at (waiting for a bit more Coma/mordek myself, now that owb came out the woodwork). (On that topic, filters are weird. I looked at everyone's length after people mentioned Soniv said "enough" because I thought he wasn't very present, and he's actually got 5 pages. Oo And I only have 2 myself, despite feeling like I spammed.) Fuck that post ends up revolving a bunch around Wave in the end, although indirectly. Whatever, I still think my points have value so here it is.
Scum!Wave's vie to draw attention works => we pay attention to him => other scum get to lead votes unattended. A simple train of thought but one worth considering.
On October 14 2014 01:19 WaveofShadow wrote:Join the discussion we're about to have, Alaric. Don't disappear. + Show Spoiler +
Regarding me, there's something you didn't quite consider---one, I've never played a game where I was almost the only one with any real experience. Yes paranoia is healthy to some degree, but not at the expense of logic, which is what I believe some people are doing here. Also consider that from my POV (assume I'm town for this) the paranoia is also preventing anyone from actually listening to and considering what I have to say.
Though, we must also consider that Town!Wave just doesn't really know how to handle himself in a noob game. He may be getting frustrated and his actions may just be because he's used to better players.
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On October 14 2014 01:26 ketchup wrote:
Also regarding owb, I think he's definitely town(or as close to town as I can feel someone being town). He says enough small new things combined with the old that I can definitely trust him for it. I really like the Asmo read, and some of his smaller comments that make me feel he cares enough about the game to set it in the right direction.
I am likely to agree with this, for your reasons as well as the fact that I don't think owb is confident enough to go against thread sentiment and blatantly defend me (though I must admit the fact that he knows I am a strong player, buddying me/getting on my good side and therefore separating himself from the stances of his team would be very good scumplay indeed---a play that I don't really think owb would make...no offense buddeh).
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United States23745 Posts
On October 14 2014 01:14 Alaric wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2014 23:55 WaveofShadow wrote:On October 13 2014 23:29 Requizen wrote:
Maybe it's just early for a lot of people, but this thread should not be this dead during the night. Town needs to be discussing the action for the next day and posting discussion about yesterday's failed lynching.
I have a large post coming soon, don't make me double. Oh hmm. I wonder why it's so quiet. Better lynch me tomorrow guys, I'm only around to spread chaos and discord. Now you sound like day 1 Req. Other than that... welp. I was going to feel bad about lynching Moonbear (although more because his post upon returning seemed to imply RL stuff in the way of him playing) but then there was this Isaac-styled Night post and I had to laugh. Damnit Dandel. I still stand by my choice not to switch my vote, not because I necessarily think Ghandi is town too but because of the mess that discussion caused. I've got some opinions, but there's potential for them to drastically change once night actions are revealed so I'll keep the analysis/"update" for tomorrow. As for what happened in-between, few things I'd like to point out: Alzadar, not that I think you defending Wave is suspicious, but at this point I don't think it'll bring much. Since our goal isn't to keep the whole town alive but to lynch scum, it's better for us to accuse than to protect. The exception is when we're close to the deadline and we believe the current lynch is a contributing certified-town; the next deadline is 50+ hours away and I personally don't think Wave's in any real danger to be lynched, so we're better off letting that slide for now. Cixah is most likely certified townie. If I understand the roles well, as scum the best he could do would be to convince a vigilante to shoot a townie tonight, then get lynched day 2 (a poisoner would be able to cancel his kill night 2 upon seeing Cixah flip red). That means we can be sure of Cixah's intentions whenever he posts, and there's never going to be any point to challenge them. However that doesn't mean that everything he says is right. I'm not saying I find your reads useless or wrong Cixah, I just want to remind people so as to reduce the chances of sheeping/bandwagoning using your certified status as an excuse. Wave, as the post I quoted indicates, you're acting a bit contrary to what I expected from you-especially because you're a vet and you've probably dealt with mafia noobs already. Could be you having a lot on your plate lately (you seemed to imply so in the offtopic GD) and I can understand that. However, if you're feeling frustrated because you're getting your experience challenged by the very ignorants you're trying to raise properly, think of it as training for the pebble's teen years. Could also be you exaggerating (because you still don't like the way we play) to amplify the whole situation and get bigger reactions from us. Your and especially Tolkien's behaviour over day 1 made me more aware of these possibilities. In that case I'm wondering what kind of reaction you're trying to cause exactly. (For the record I'm leaning toward the latter, also because being paranoid seems like a healthy mindset atm, I just wanted to make the joke. At least I didn't accuse you of WIFOMing us with the "do you think I'm good enough to mastermind you all?" instead. ;p) Show nested quote +On October 14 2014 00:56 Requizen wrote:
That said, I think my focus has been too largely on Wave lately. This in and of itself makes me think Scum, using himself as a distraction for other Scum.
Time to go into filters and weed out my town. I'm a bit perplexed by the association "I pay too much attention to Wave" => "Wave is scummy". I mean, he can certainly try to manipulate people in that direction, but whether or not you fall for it depends on you more than on him, don't you think? Just a quick observation, I agree with your intention to broaden who you're looking at (waiting for a bit more Coma/mordek myself, now that owb came out the woodwork). (On that topic, filters are weird. I looked at everyone's length after people mentioned Soniv said "enough" because I thought he wasn't very present, and he's actually got 5 pages. Oo And I only have 2 myself, despite feeling like I spammed.) Fuck that post ends up revolving a bunch around Wave in the end, although indirectly. Whatever, I still think my points have value so here it is.
Seems a little odd you call out Alzadar for defending Wave when I've arguably been defending him much harder.
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On October 14 2014 01:27 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2014 01:20 Requizen wrote:To that end I'm going to go through filters and post my thoughts given the results of last night. I will skim through somewhat quickly, as the thread is fairly large, so link me to anything I may miss about a person. They will come as the day progresses. At the moment, my two biggest Scum reads are still Wave and LordyT. Partially left over from last night, partially because my reasoning still feels good to me. Wave because what I posted above, LordT for the reasons I discussed yesterday. Additionally: -his early "role call" was highly suspicious -His list of players is highly iffy. Knowing that MoonBear was VT and (myself) knowing I am not scum, he noted us as scummy. Knowing that he and Wave are on my watchlist, he noted them as townish. And he calls Alzadar scum for "not paying attention to him", which is very much attention drawing. -His vote changed plenty enough for me to be suspicious. I understand using votes as pressure, but he jumped to many people I don't find suspicious/think may very well be town, and he helped push the MoonBear train pretty hard. These two are my top picks atm. Please respond with criticism/discussion, or if you are the accused respond with your rebuttal. Be careful with the bolded, because that's confirmation bias. Just because someone is wrong, doesn't make them scum (and from my POV, he isn't even necessarily wrong about all of it). As for 'attention drawing' do you think scum typically want to be in the spotlight or avoid it? That also goes for vote switching: why do you think scum is more likely to flip flop in votes? I think I discussed this before but that's a pretty common misunderstanding of mindsets---yes scum are likely to try and jump bandwagons and whatnot but to do so constantly draws attention to their voting patterns. I believe that town is more likely to be switching votes constantly as they are always (and should be) re-evaluating reads constantly/ applying pressure, and most of all they are the one who should not care at all about what they look like to others.I also think you should go back and consider what I wrote about LT/MB interaction. Does it make sense for LT to remove his vote as scum from a likely town mislynch when he did?
Redtext - Scum in spotlight draws attention away from other scum. A Goon drawing attention away from Godfather/Vigilante/Poisoner is doing a good job of helping Scum win, even if he dies. Though, that depends on if the player considers a team win still a win despite their own well-being.
Bold - Starting bandwagons against non-scum causes town infighting. Town infighting leads to lynching VTs. In MB's case it didn't matter, he was mostly lynched due to inactivity/no responses to his situation, but worth considering.
Italics - I disagree. I think votepressure is a bad tactic, since unnecessary pressure leads to people suspecting where there is nothing. This is less bandwagoning and more angry mob - one person gets accused, has no response/poor response, everyone jumps on them for not doing it right -> death. Angry mobs don't build towns, they kill innocents.
Underline - It makes sense for Scum!LT to get off of a MB mislynch. It gives a fallback "I didn't vote for lynching the VT!" in the future. For Town!LT, it's a different case.
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Req, don't worry too much about 6ah tonight. If he's not the IC, we'll find out tomorrow if Dandelion doesn't confirm his claim (assuming 6ah has asked him to tonight - and if he doesn't then he's an idiot).
Wave - I'm struggling to commit to a read on you because there's a conflict between what I'm observing and what makes sense.
Your play would have been very indicative of scum had MB flipped red, but he did not, and I'm trying to figure out where I should be looking now. I've decided that I'm going to table my concerns on you for a little while because looking back, hindsight suggests that you truly were trying to protect someone you thought was blue.
I'm not sure how much posting I'll get done before the end of the work day, but I'll be periodically rereading things from D1 and I'll hopefully have a more solid position before the day post.
Coma's lack of presence is getting more concerning as time goes on.
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On October 14 2014 01:35 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2014 01:27 WaveofShadow wrote:On October 14 2014 01:20 Requizen wrote:To that end I'm going to go through filters and post my thoughts given the results of last night. I will skim through somewhat quickly, as the thread is fairly large, so link me to anything I may miss about a person. They will come as the day progresses. At the moment, my two biggest Scum reads are still Wave and LordyT. Partially left over from last night, partially because my reasoning still feels good to me. Wave because what I posted above, LordT for the reasons I discussed yesterday. Additionally: -his early "role call" was highly suspicious -His list of players is highly iffy. Knowing that MoonBear was VT and (myself) knowing I am not scum, he noted us as scummy. Knowing that he and Wave are on my watchlist, he noted them as townish. And he calls Alzadar scum for "not paying attention to him", which is very much attention drawing. -His vote changed plenty enough for me to be suspicious. I understand using votes as pressure, but he jumped to many people I don't find suspicious/think may very well be town, and he helped push the MoonBear train pretty hard. These two are my top picks atm. Please respond with criticism/discussion, or if you are the accused respond with your rebuttal. Be careful with the bolded, because that's confirmation bias. Just because someone is wrong, doesn't make them scum (and from my POV, he isn't even necessarily wrong about all of it). As for 'attention drawing' do you think scum typically want to be in the spotlight or avoid it? That also goes for vote switching: why do you think scum is more likely to flip flop in votes? I think I discussed this before but that's a pretty common misunderstanding of mindsets---yes scum are likely to try and jump bandwagons and whatnot but to do so constantly draws attention to their voting patterns. I believe that town is more likely to be switching votes constantly as they are always (and should be) re-evaluating reads constantly/ applying pressure, and most of all they are the one who should not care at all about what they look like to others.I also think you should go back and consider what I wrote about LT/MB interaction. Does it make sense for LT to remove his vote as scum from a likely town mislynch when he did? Redtext - Scum in spotlight draws attention away from other scum. A Goon drawing attention away from Godfather/Vigilante/Poisoner is doing a good job of helping Scum win, even if he dies. Though, that depends on if the player considers a team win still a win despite their own well-being. Bold - Starting bandwagons against non-scum causes town infighting. Town infighting leads to lynching VTs. In MB's case it didn't matter, he was mostly lynched due to inactivity/no responses to his situation, but worth considering. Italics - I disagree. I think votepressure is a bad tactic, since unnecessary pressure leads to people suspecting where there is nothing. This is less bandwagoning and more angry mob - one person gets accused, has no response/poor response, everyone jumps on them for not doing it right -> death. Angry mobs don't build towns, they kill innocents. Underline - It makes sense for Scum!LT to get off of a MB mislynch. It gives a fallback "I didn't vote for lynching the VT!" in the future. For Town!LT, it's a different case.
Redtext - It's not great scumplay to try and draw attention away from other people [i]when there's no one to draw attention away from[/] who was in danger at the point that he was trying to protect exactly? It's D1 and the lynch is so high up in the air, why draw attention and cause more scrutiny when the lynch could be almost conceivably anyone at that point? Yes your point makes sense to a degree but ONLY if at that point you're danger of losing a stronger player and that very clearly was not the case. Not to mention you're make some pretty huge assumptions about roles here.
Bold - I'm not sure what you're basing that on exactly. Bandwagons are exactly how people get lynched, scum OR town.
Italics - How is pressure a bad thing? Pressure also can get scum to slip and say something they shouldn't or gets you information you want. Req, a couple of these points are simply you not understanding how the game is played imo---as a VT how else are you supposed to get answers you want? Voting is your ONLY power as a VT. I'm sorry if you don't like me saying that there's stuff you don't understand and given the earlier history I guess I'll understand if you ignore this point, but in the postgame you're welcome to ask anyone who has played a game of mafia and they'll tell you the same. You are simply wrong here. Vore pressure does not always lead to an angry mob situation.
Underline- it doesn't make sense for him to get off when he did.
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On October 14 2014 01:34 onlywonderboy wrote:
Seems a little odd you call out Alzadar for defending Wave when I've arguably been defending him much harder.
Reread Alaric's filter. He is fairly townie. He draws his own conclusions, and it lines up real town to me. I actually think this is a point in Alaric's favor. Those two Alzadar posts were just weird for me because they weren't fairly null. They didn't bring anything up that wasn't already long past. They were also contradictory unless I misunderstood something. In the first post, he says Wave should be left alone, but then in his second, he tries to get Wave to react to him:
On October 13 2014 13:35 Alzadar wrote:
This is from a ways back but the thread exploded while I was at dinner:
You guys were all discussing what to do if MB didn't show up, whether to lynch + modkill or just kill
MB. Then MB came and voted, making the discussion moot. Wave says "stfu about that now, let's talk about relevant stuff", and then ketchup pulls this "nu-uh, you're not my mom" bullshit. There's nothing wrong with trying to refocus the thread back towards the impending vote once the modkill was no longer going to happen.
This doesn't make me think ketchup is scum but it's definitely not helping us to jump down Wave's throat in an instance when his direction is obviously legitimate.
On October 13 2014 14:03 Alzadar wrote:Also hardly well-trod when just last page Wave is still posting stuff like Show nested quote +On October 13 2014 09:26 WaveofShadow wrote:
I won't discuss what I think people should be doing at night or not because again I'll probably be yelled at.
Do what you want. i.e. useful discussion being stifled, which is anti-town even if it's not intentional scum.
The bigger issue here is that I agree with Wave that Alzadar is just "bumbly". I think he is trying to help, but doesn't actually point out things I want to see or hear from him.
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Sorry, They were fairly null*
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On October 14 2014 01:41 WaveofShadow wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2014 01:35 Requizen wrote:On October 14 2014 01:27 WaveofShadow wrote:On October 14 2014 01:20 Requizen wrote:To that end I'm going to go through filters and post my thoughts given the results of last night. I will skim through somewhat quickly, as the thread is fairly large, so link me to anything I may miss about a person. They will come as the day progresses. At the moment, my two biggest Scum reads are still Wave and LordyT. Partially left over from last night, partially because my reasoning still feels good to me. Wave because what I posted above, LordT for the reasons I discussed yesterday. Additionally: -his early "role call" was highly suspicious -His list of players is highly iffy. Knowing that MoonBear was VT and (myself) knowing I am not scum, he noted us as scummy. Knowing that he and Wave are on my watchlist, he noted them as townish. And he calls Alzadar scum for "not paying attention to him", which is very much attention drawing. -His vote changed plenty enough for me to be suspicious. I understand using votes as pressure, but he jumped to many people I don't find suspicious/think may very well be town, and he helped push the MoonBear train pretty hard. These two are my top picks atm. Please respond with criticism/discussion, or if you are the accused respond with your rebuttal. Be careful with the bolded, because that's confirmation bias. Just because someone is wrong, doesn't make them scum (and from my POV, he isn't even necessarily wrong about all of it). As for 'attention drawing' do you think scum typically want to be in the spotlight or avoid it? That also goes for vote switching: why do you think scum is more likely to flip flop in votes? I think I discussed this before but that's a pretty common misunderstanding of mindsets---yes scum are likely to try and jump bandwagons and whatnot but to do so constantly draws attention to their voting patterns. I believe that town is more likely to be switching votes constantly as they are always (and should be) re-evaluating reads constantly/ applying pressure, and most of all they are the one who should not care at all about what they look like to others.I also think you should go back and consider what I wrote about LT/MB interaction. Does it make sense for LT to remove his vote as scum from a likely town mislynch when he did? Redtext - Scum in spotlight draws attention away from other scum. A Goon drawing attention away from Godfather/Vigilante/Poisoner is doing a good job of helping Scum win, even if he dies. Though, that depends on if the player considers a team win still a win despite their own well-being. Bold - Starting bandwagons against non-scum causes town infighting. Town infighting leads to lynching VTs. In MB's case it didn't matter, he was mostly lynched due to inactivity/no responses to his situation, but worth considering. Italics - I disagree. I think votepressure is a bad tactic, since unnecessary pressure leads to people suspecting where there is nothing. This is less bandwagoning and more angry mob - one person gets accused, has no response/poor response, everyone jumps on them for not doing it right -> death. Angry mobs don't build towns, they kill innocents. Underline - It makes sense for Scum!LT to get off of a MB mislynch. It gives a fallback "I didn't vote for lynching the VT!" in the future. For Town!LT, it's a different case. Redtext - It's not great scumplay to try and draw attention away from other people when there's no one to draw attention away from who was in danger at the point that he was trying to protect exactly? It's D1 and the lynch is so high up in the air, why draw attention and cause more scrutiny when the lynch could be almost conceivably anyone at that point? Yes your point makes sense to a degree but ONLY if at that point you're danger of losing a stronger player and that very clearly was not the case. Not to mention you're make some pretty huge assumptions about roles here. Bold - I'm not sure what you're basing that on exactly. Bandwagons are exactly how people get lynched, scum OR town. Italics - How is pressure a bad thing? Pressure also can get scum to slip and say something they shouldn't or gets you information you want. Req, a couple of these points are simply you not understanding how the game is played imo---as a VT how else are you supposed to get answers you want? Voting is your ONLY power as a VT. I'm sorry if you don't like me saying that there's stuff you don't understand and given the earlier history I guess I'll understand if you ignore this point, but in the postgame you're welcome to ask anyone who has played a game of mafia and they'll tell you the same. You are simply wrong here. Vore pressure does not always lead to an angry mob situation. Underline- it doesn't make sense for him to get off when he did.
Maybe I don't understand the meta. But that's my reasoning. To me his actions seemed and still seem suspicious.
You can cause pressure without someone suddenly having 5 votes on them. Take last night for example. Everyone was "pressuing" MB to respond and they all naturally dumped their votes onto him "waiting for an answer", when the only thing he had done that was suspicious was make a dumb post about driving. His lack of an answer got him killed over nothing and all the Townies get to say "well it's not my fault, everyone else voted too". A Townie who jumps onto a pressure vote and kills another non-scum is a) wasting their vote and b) losing the game.
I knew my vote against you wasn't going to get you to talk, since no one else was on there, but I placed it where my feelings were rather than on a random person I wanted to hear talk. And I don't have his verdant green blood on my hands.
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I don't think those were contradictory---I think Alz was saying it was anti-town that discussion was being stifled not, that I was the one doing it. He can clarify though.
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Ahahaha. Req thinks I'm scum.
I wouldnt have a problem with it if the reasoning wasn't so bad. Your picking up on traits which are the EXACT OPPOSITE of what scum wants to do.
lol
Town can't change their minds? Pls.
And really, how are we to read your day one when you spent the entire time moaning then playing the newb card?
I applaud the effort, though the reasoning is poor at best. After analyzing the votecount and general player atmosphere, i figured i needed to steer town off of what was most likely town. And not waste a d1 lynch COUGH COUGH.
Still wouldnt lynch wave or soniv tomorrow.
Also, i take it back. Vigi should shoot today.
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On October 14 2014 01:47 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 14 2014 01:41 WaveofShadow wrote:On October 14 2014 01:35 Requizen wrote:On October 14 2014 01:27 WaveofShadow wrote:On October 14 2014 01:20 Requizen wrote:To that end I'm going to go through filters and post my thoughts given the results of last night. I will skim through somewhat quickly, as the thread is fairly large, so link me to anything I may miss about a person. They will come as the day progresses. At the moment, my two biggest Scum reads are still Wave and LordyT. Partially left over from last night, partially because my reasoning still feels good to me. Wave because what I posted above, LordT for the reasons I discussed yesterday. Additionally: -his early "role call" was highly suspicious -His list of players is highly iffy. Knowing that MoonBear was VT and (myself) knowing I am not scum, he noted us as scummy. Knowing that he and Wave are on my watchlist, he noted them as townish. And he calls Alzadar scum for "not paying attention to him", which is very much attention drawing. -His vote changed plenty enough for me to be suspicious. I understand using votes as pressure, but he jumped to many people I don't find suspicious/think may very well be town, and he helped push the MoonBear train pretty hard. These two are my top picks atm. Please respond with criticism/discussion, or if you are the accused respond with your rebuttal. Be careful with the bolded, because that's confirmation bias. Just because someone is wrong, doesn't make them scum (and from my POV, he isn't even necessarily wrong about all of it). As for 'attention drawing' do you think scum typically want to be in the spotlight or avoid it? That also goes for vote switching: why do you think scum is more likely to flip flop in votes? I think I discussed this before but that's a pretty common misunderstanding of mindsets---yes scum are likely to try and jump bandwagons and whatnot but to do so constantly draws attention to their voting patterns. I believe that town is more likely to be switching votes constantly as they are always (and should be) re-evaluating reads constantly/ applying pressure, and most of all they are the one who should not care at all about what they look like to others.I also think you should go back and consider what I wrote about LT/MB interaction. Does it make sense for LT to remove his vote as scum from a likely town mislynch when he did? Redtext - Scum in spotlight draws attention away from other scum. A Goon drawing attention away from Godfather/Vigilante/Poisoner is doing a good job of helping Scum win, even if he dies. Though, that depends on if the player considers a team win still a win despite their own well-being. Bold - Starting bandwagons against non-scum causes town infighting. Town infighting leads to lynching VTs. In MB's case it didn't matter, he was mostly lynched due to inactivity/no responses to his situation, but worth considering. Italics - I disagree. I think votepressure is a bad tactic, since unnecessary pressure leads to people suspecting where there is nothing. This is less bandwagoning and more angry mob - one person gets accused, has no response/poor response, everyone jumps on them for not doing it right -> death. Angry mobs don't build towns, they kill innocents. Underline - It makes sense for Scum!LT to get off of a MB mislynch. It gives a fallback "I didn't vote for lynching the VT!" in the future. For Town!LT, it's a different case. Redtext - It's not great scumplay to try and draw attention away from other people when there's no one to draw attention away from who was in danger at the point that he was trying to protect exactly? It's D1 and the lynch is so high up in the air, why draw attention and cause more scrutiny when the lynch could be almost conceivably anyone at that point? Yes your point makes sense to a degree but ONLY if at that point you're danger of losing a stronger player and that very clearly was not the case. Not to mention you're make some pretty huge assumptions about roles here. Bold - I'm not sure what you're basing that on exactly. Bandwagons are exactly how people get lynched, scum OR town. Italics - How is pressure a bad thing? Pressure also can get scum to slip and say something they shouldn't or gets you information you want. Req, a couple of these points are simply you not understanding how the game is played imo---as a VT how else are you supposed to get answers you want? Voting is your ONLY power as a VT. I'm sorry if you don't like me saying that there's stuff you don't understand and given the earlier history I guess I'll understand if you ignore this point, but in the postgame you're welcome to ask anyone who has played a game of mafia and they'll tell you the same. You are simply wrong here. Vore pressure does not always lead to an angry mob situation. Underline- it doesn't make sense for him to get off when he did. Maybe I don't understand the meta. But that's my reasoning. To me his actions seemed and still seem suspicious. You can cause pressure without someone suddenly having 5 votes on them. Take last night for example. Everyone was "pressuing" MB to respond and they all naturally dumped their votes onto him "waiting for an answer", when the only thing he had done that was suspicious was make a dumb post about driving. His lack of an answer got him killed over nothing and all the Townies get to say "well it's not my fault, everyone else voted too". A Townie who jumps onto a pressure vote and kills another non-scum is a) wasting their vote and b) losing the game. I knew my vote against you wasn't going to get you to talk, since no one else was on there, but I placed it where my feelings were rather than on a random person I wanted to hear talk. And I don't have his verdant green blood on my hands.
I posit that it wasn't lack of MB responding later on that got him killed, rather his general attitude and the early case against him/lack of reads without responding to those when he had plenty of time to do so. People had already made up their minds long before that became 'pressuring.' Look at soniv for example. Look at how many people DIDN'T vote MB and said 'I may move my vote over to him when such-and-such' happens. All the blame though can't be place on MB though, scum and town are both to blame as well. I personally believe the wagon had a decent scum push/following to it, and town were not willing to look past MB's early faults and consider the points I had brought up about MB's aggression (less so the blue stuff because I brought it up late).
As for the bolded neither do I but you don't see people willing to clear me for it, do you?
As far as voting patterns go, in my experience it is way more likely for scum to spread out their votes than to pile on---solo voting is a big no-no as was explained a little earlier. (up to you again if you consider that useful or not). I have a fair idea that you're town but obstinately voting outside the group is an easy way for scum to absolve themselves of responsibility like you are doing. This goes for me as well since I was voting Asmo.
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On October 14 2014 01:48 WaveofShadow wrote:
I don't think those were contradictory---I think Alz was saying it was anti-town that discussion was being stifled not, that I was the one doing it. He can clarify though.
I think I did misunderstand but I would still like him to clarify himself there. I still think Alzadar is no where near trying to solve the game, and is just rarely, if at all, helpful for town. I wouldn't mind those posts he made if they were before the lynch, but it was way too late, and already things people said when it happened.
I really want to hear from ComaDose today as well.
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EPT
