EPT391 hours in September and he still barely made the top 50 list. I wonder if the extra 2v2 streamer competition will put him off the list
Top 50 streamers in September 2014 - Page 5
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paddyz
Ireland628 Posts
391 hours in September and he still barely made the top 50 list. I wonder if the extra 2v2 streamer competition will put him off the list | ||
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Conti
Germany2516 Posts
On October 02 2014 03:14 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote: Those statistics don't make any fucking sense if you don't put in parallel the geographic dispersion of the audience and the time at which the streamers stream on average. I don't even get the point of getting trouble doing all this work because without the former information that is just useless and meaningless. (well it's great to have all that data, don't get me wrong, but don't asspull conclusions and pretend it is what this data means) Example out of ass: If A gets more V*H than B, when 80% of the audience is north american, and A mainly streams between 6pm and 11pm EDT while B streams mainly between 3am and 4am EDT then you can't say shit about who is more popular between A and B. And despite that there are all those people arguing with arguments which are not even correlated to what they use it to argue for..... The only way for any discussion in this thread to possibly have made sense would have been if all the streamers from the list always streamed at the same time for the same amount of time. (and the V*H does not even slightly compensate for that, because stream hours in different locations are not equally popular themselves). Seriously.... What this data is good for is to see the time evolution of the average viewer number for SC and for each player individually, and even then it would need to also have a track of the evolution of the streaming schedules of players to be accurate. So Stephano average viewer drop between now and February does not necessarily mean SC or Stephano are less popular. It could just be that Stephano changed the time at which he is streaming to a less popular time slot or that the popularity of the time slot itself could evolve during the year. When you present statistical data and conclusions based on it, it is your responsibility to give warnings and statements about the possible flaws of its interpretation. If you don't, profane people will believe in false gods and engage in bloody crusades based on irrelevant knowledge like in this thread, wasting both their time and trust. Even in grad school of Math & Physics most students (just personal experience) are still unable to comment statistical data properly, so be careful with it. And whatever your data, when you draw conclusions ALWAYS assume that there is at least an unkown factor which has been missed and is supposed to affect the results in some way. The data is even less meaningful than that, if you look at it that way. I would not only have to include the times of day the players stream in regards to their corresponding time zone (which is not even static, since players move from/to Korea all the time), I would also have to take into account the days they stream (weekend/non-weekends) and, in addition to that, take into account which other streams/events were streaming at that time (stream while WCS is on? That's gonna hurt your V*H rating). Maybe I should mention something along those lines in the disclaimer in the OP, though I would say that this is fairly obvious, and that this is quite obviously not an objective list of popularity. But if I would take all these things into account (and have fun doing that month for month), it would still not be an objective list of popularity, because popularity is inherently subjective. I am assuming that people here are smart enough to know that. | ||
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The_Masked_Shrimp
425 Posts
On October 02 2014 03:54 Conti wrote: The data is even less meaningful than that, if you look at it that way. I would not only have to include the times of day the players stream in regards to their corresponding time zone (which is not even static, since players move from/to Korea all the time), I would also have to take into account the days they stream (weekend/non-weekends) and, in addition to that, take into account which other streams/events were streaming at that time (stream while WCS is on? That's gonna hurt your V*H rating). Maybe I should mention something along those lines in the disclaimer in the OP, though I would say that this is fairly obvious, and that this is quite obviously not an objective list of popularity. But if I would take all these things into account (and have fun doing that month for month), it would still not be an objective list of popularity, because popularity is inherently subjective. I am assuming that people here are smart enough to know that. Yes indeed to do "popularity" statistics or at least compare one player to another "evenly" it would require a lot more work and parameters to look at. If you ever plan to work on those (good luck with that!) I hope some teams sponsor you because it would be strong material for business decision making (but i guess twitch already give/sell it to them?). I don't know wtf team managers are doing but after a 20k+ viewer WCS/tournament finishes, there is not rush of players streaming to capitalize on the huge instantaneous viewer pool. Just want to say I was not criticizing your work, all data is good data after all, but rather the way people used it for those popularity and Winter arguments. And seeing how most of the thread are arguments on popularity ( and by that I mean "how much people like player X"). I think a comment/guideline in the OP would be much useful because obviously people are not armed to read it (not blaming, it might just not be obvious for readers). | ||
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Mistakes
United States1102 Posts
On October 02 2014 03:02 The_Red_Viper wrote: You have to understand that his stream is quite diverse. - He plays vs master lvl - he plays "educational" bronze to masters - He plays trollgames bronze to masters - he has a tournament going on once a week - he does subscriber games He just does a lot of different stuff, all while being active with his chat and even more important: Pretty much every single day at the same timeslots. He studies marketing afaik, you can see how that would help i guess. His mods are really strict, you won't see spam/trolls or anything there for the most part. Link me to a sc2 streamer who does all that while also being that "talkative" , i don't think there is one and that might be the reason he has this much success atm. It really isn't rocket science to "understand" it imo, even though people keep repeating that phrase, i actually "don't understand" how you can't understand it  (except you are being elitist and think the majority of people are in GM and want to see someone playing with over 9000 apm)Yeah it makes sense. I would say that most people who are Master+ want to see Master+ play. Regardless of commentary and whatnot. But I understand that there are far more people below Master than not. A stream I can link would be to CatZ' stream. Partially why I dislike or have a hard time understanding Winter's numbers is when someone like CatZ who is actually a very good and VERY creative player, does stream daily, and has a better looking stream, but also does "Inside My Head", "Music Mode" (where he sings and is goofy), "Tryhard Mode" (no talk, best games possible) and mixtures of each depending on what subs/donators/viewers want to see. Yet I often see him at around 300 viewers. Even lately he has been doing showmatches on his stream vs known pros. (Nestea a couple days ago, DRG last night) either Bo7 or Bo9. I guess I can say I understand why Winter's numbers are where they are, but what I can't understand is when someone has arguably a better stream (at least in my opinion), is a better player, and still manages to get far less viewers. Maybe it is that marketing degree. Lol. Ah well, enough Winter talk I suppose. The numbers are interesting and it's really cool to see. I often miss some players because of time zone differences, only to see they've streamed ~50 hours and I completely missed all of it. xD | ||
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Swift118
United Kingdom335 Posts
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looken
727 Posts
On October 01 2014 22:44 SuperHofmann wrote: Give me a reason to watch him and not a good progamer, please he explains the game. when i watch a pro gamer he starts building units because he scouted something, but he dosent say WHAT he scouted. winter constantly babbels about why he does what he does. It's really great insight and helped me a ton. before i was just sending my stuff to the other guy and i saw what he did, but i didnt know what it meant and how to react. winters constant commentary on what things mean helped me quite a bit. | ||
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Bonkarooni
United States383 Posts
On October 01 2014 22:35 SC2Toastie wrote: Isn't it well known and publicly accepted that Winter's stream is filled with bots, which may or may not be his (If I read my sources correctly, it's out of his control, but who knows). Anyways, I find it slightly odd to have a stream KNOWN to be almost exclusively bots in the top 50 streamers list. User was warned for this post Twitch has come out and said he's not botting, as well as several big figures within the community. He was recently invited to HSC to host alongside incontrol....where in the world do you get this "It's well known he bots" from? | ||
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AxionSteel
United States7754 Posts
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PiLiPiLi
United States17 Posts
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Circumstance
United States11403 Posts
On October 02 2014 08:40 PiLiPiLi wrote: I am teamless atm. The greater problem is that your national listing on this forum would mean every Liquipedia entry about you has used the wrong flag. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43475 Posts
On October 02 2014 03:42 paddyz wrote: Protech still easily streaming more than everyone else, the guy is a machine, mad props. 391 hours in September and he still barely made the top 50 list. I wonder if the extra 2v2 streamer competition will put him off the list I don't really follow 2v2 streams... what new 2v2 competition/ streamers are there that you're referring to? Anyone in particular you'd recommend us watching? | ||
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Grovbolle
Denmark3804 Posts
On October 02 2014 03:14 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote: Those statistics don't make any fucking sense if you don't put in parallel the geographic dispersion of the audience and the time at which the streamers stream on average. I don't even get the point of getting trouble doing all this work because without the former information that is just useless and meaningless. (well it's great to have all that data, don't get me wrong, but don't asspull conclusions and pretend it is what this data means) Example out of ass: If A gets more V*H than B, when 80% of the audience is north american, and A mainly streams between 6pm and 11pm EDT while B streams mainly between 3am and 4am EDT then you can't say shit about who is more popular between A and B. And despite that there are all those people arguing with arguments which are not even correlated to what they use it to argue for..... The only way for any discussion in this thread to possibly have made sense would have been if all the streamers from the list always streamed at the same time for the same amount of time. (and the V*H does not even slightly compensate for that, because stream hours in different locations are not equally popular themselves). Seriously.... What this data is good for is to see the time evolution of the average viewer number for SC and for each player individually, and even then it would need to also have a track of the evolution of the streaming schedules of players to be accurate. So Stephano average viewer drop between now and February does not necessarily mean SC or Stephano are less popular. It could just be that Stephano changed the time at which he is streaming to a less popular time slot or that the popularity of the time slot itself could evolve during the year. When you present statistical data and conclusions based on it, it is your responsibility to give warnings and statements about the possible flaws of its interpretation. If you don't, profane people will believe in false gods and engage in bloody crusades based on irrelevant knowledge like in this thread, wasting both their time and trust.Edit: it sounds a bit like I am bashing the OP but no, there is no out of place conclusion in OP post. However there is no indication for people on how to interpret it correclty. Even in grad school of Math & Physics most students (just personal experience) are still unable to comment statistical data properly, so be careful with it. And whatever your data, when you draw conclusions ALWAYS assume that there is at least an unkown factor which has been missed and is supposed to affect the results in some way. TL;DR statistics are not to use lightly, please edit OP with proper reading advices and remind people that none of the data can lead to popularity conclusions. Holy fuck you are entitled. Conti presents the numbers and people draw conclusions. Stupid people draw stupid conclusions. Get over it | ||
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Senshin
Netherlands115 Posts
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The_Masked_Shrimp
425 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On October 02 2014 14:36 Grovbolle wrote: On October 02 2014 03:14 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote: Those statistics don't make any fucking sense if you don't put in parallel the geographic dispersion of the audience and the time at which the streamers stream on average. I don't even get the point of getting trouble doing all this work because without the former information that is just useless and meaningless. (well it's great to have all that data, don't get me wrong, but don't asspull conclusions and pretend it is what this data means) Example out of ass: If A gets more V*H than B, when 80% of the audience is north american, and A mainly streams between 6pm and 11pm EDT while B streams mainly between 3am and 4am EDT then you can't say shit about who is more popular between A and B. And despite that there are all those people arguing with arguments which are not even correlated to what they use it to argue for..... The only way for any discussion in this thread to possibly have made sense would have been if all the streamers from the list always streamed at the same time for the same amount of time. (and the V*H does not even slightly compensate for that, because stream hours in different locations are not equally popular themselves). Seriously.... What this data is good for is to see the time evolution of the average viewer number for SC and for each player individually, and even then it would need to also have a track of the evolution of the streaming schedules of players to be accurate. So Stephano average viewer drop between now and February does not necessarily mean SC or Stephano are less popular. It could just be that Stephano changed the time at which he is streaming to a less popular time slot or that the popularity of the time slot itself could evolve during the year. When you present statistical data and conclusions based on it, it is your responsibility to give warnings and statements about the possible flaws of its interpretation. If you don't, profane people will believe in false gods and engage in bloody crusades based on irrelevant knowledge like in this thread, wasting both their time and trust.Edit: it sounds a bit like I am bashing the OP but no, there is no out of place conclusion in OP post. However there is no indication for people on how to interpret it correclty. Even in grad school of Math & Physics most students (just personal experience) are still unable to comment statistical data properly, so be careful with it. And whatever your data, when you draw conclusions ALWAYS assume that there is at least an unkown factor which has been missed and is supposed to affect the results in some way. TL;DR statistics are not to use lightly, please edit OP with proper reading advices and remind people that none of the data can lead to popularity conclusions. Holy fuck you are entitled. Conti presents the numbers and people draw conclusions. Stupid people draw stupid conclusions. Get over it Yes I am, get over it. At least I developed my point and gave suggestions relevant to the actual thread. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7028 Posts
On October 02 2014 16:18 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote: Yes I am, get over it. At least I developed my point and gave suggestions relevant to the actual thread. The problem with your argument is assuming that people would read his disclaimers. If you're not very smart and likely to draw absurd conclusions from this data, then you're not the sort of person to carefully parse the text for disclaimers. And if the OP would write it in huge bold letters then it starts to really be condescending to his audience. Instead he just posts the data and that's it. | ||
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y0su
Finland7871 Posts
On October 02 2014 04:19 Mistakes wrote: Yeah it makes sense. I would say that most people who are Master+ want to see Master+ play. Regardless of commentary and whatnot. But I understand that there are far more people below Master than not. A stream I can link would be to CatZ' stream. Partially why I dislike or have a hard time understanding Winter's numbers is when someone like CatZ who is actually a very good and VERY creative player, does stream daily, and has a better looking stream, but also does "Inside My Head", "Music Mode" (where he sings and is goofy), "Tryhard Mode" (no talk, best games possible) and mixtures of each depending on what subs/donators/viewers want to see. Yet I often see him at around 300 viewers. Even lately he has been doing showmatches on his stream vs known pros. (Nestea a couple days ago, DRG last night) either Bo7 or Bo9. I guess I can say I understand why Winter's numbers are where they are, but what I can't understand is when someone has arguably a better stream (at least in my opinion), is a better player, and still manages to get far less viewers. Maybe it is that marketing degree. Lol. Ah well, enough Winter talk I suppose. The numbers are interesting and it's really cool to see. I often miss some players because of time zone differences, only to see they've streamed ~50 hours and I completely missed all of it. xD This is what I'm curious about... I was pretty busy all summer and now it feels like this guy came out of nowhere. (Don't get me wrong, I'm absolutely jealous that the guy I've practically never heard of is suddenly invited to cast HSC:X) | ||
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
On October 02 2014 20:02 y0su wrote: This is what I'm curious about... I was pretty busy all summer and now it feels like this guy came out of nowhere. (Don't get me wrong, I'm absolutely jealous that the guy I've practically never heard of is suddenly invited to cast HSC:X) Winter is here from the very begining. He didn't come out of nowhere  | ||
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iMOOrtal
Canada144 Posts
On October 02 2014 00:54 jtp118 wrote: it looks like Protech leads a rich and fulfilling life How is this not warned lol.... biggest troll in the whole thread. So Winter has an army of admins defending people accusing him of V*Bing, but actual attacks on people go free? Zealously where are you? Ned Stark? Winter is coming? Also please put a disclaimer saying people can't question Winter, I thought this was maybe the only place we could talk about the numbers but I guess not. Although it seems like it is the place to personally attack SC2 players character, which if it is, I will proceed to do if this bro isn't warned. I guess we can't talk about V*B with Winter, but we can insult him personally? Sounds good to me. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland23081 Posts
On October 02 2014 22:13 iMOOrtal wrote: How is this not warned lol.... biggest troll in the whole thread. So Winter has an army of admins defending people accusing him of V*Bing, but actual attacks on people go free? Zealously where are you? Ned Stark? Winter is coming? Also please put a disclaimer saying people can't question Winter, I thought this was maybe the only place we could talk about the numbers but I guess not. Although it seems like it is the place to personally attack SC2 players character, which if it is, I will proceed to do if this bro isn't warned. I guess we can't talk about V*B with Winter, but we can insult him personally? Sounds good to me. An attack/alternatively it could drawing attention to Protech's numbers which indicate that he would have to stream about 12 hours every day for a whole month. | ||
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iMOOrtal
Canada144 Posts
On October 02 2014 22:15 Wombat_NI wrote: An attack/alternatively it could drawing attention to Protech's numbers which indicate that he would have to stream about 12 hours every day for a whole month. Clearly it's a master level troll of some sort. | ||
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