Welcome this month's edition of the top 50 streamers list. There will be no comparison columns to the previous month this time around due to my, ahem, small problem I had with gathering data on the month before. Otherwise, everything's back to normal. Rejoice!
Again, thank you so, so much Stijn from fuzic for helping me out last time!
For those of you who don't already know what this is about: I'm gathering various data (viewers, game, events, etc.) from all the streams that are presented on teamliquid.net (those that you can in the sidebar to your right) and use that data to produce the pretty tables and graphs you see below. The tables only contain SC2 players (that is, streams of people playing games of Starcraft 2) and not casters, teams or other streams. The tables also only contain Starcraft 2 related activities. So, for instance when CatZ is streaming Dota2, it will not be taken into account.
The data I gather is then turned into the tables you see below. One is sorted by the average viewers, the other is sorted by the average viewers times the hours streamed. The latter table favors those that stream a lot, while the former table favors popular streamers regardless of how much they stream. Either ranking has its advantages and disadvantages, and thus I present both.
For either table, I have a minimum required stream time of 5 hours to be included in the list.
The list
Due to space limitations, I have to shorten the headers and leave some data out of the tables presented here. You can get the full tables from the links below. The headers aren't as clear as I'd like them to be thanks to this, so here's a quick explanation, just in case: "Viewers" denotes the average viewers in the given month. "Hours" are the hours played. "Place diff" and "Viewer diff" are the place and viewer differences compared to last month.
Also, the HTML version linked beneath the images has some more information that I had to leave out due to space limitation, most notably the featured status of the players.
Now, Without further ado, here's this month's tables:
Stephano is the #1 once again, with the highest average viewer count. He lost a couple of hundred viewers from last month, but it's still more than enough to retain the first place.
Speaking of "more than enough", nobody beats Winter in the viewers*hours category anytime soon, it looks like.
With Kespa contracts running out left and right, we've had some big names leaving the Korean teams. Which is bad, on the one hand. On the other, that means we got to watch players like PartinG, Rain and FanTaSy stream, and they all got quite respectable numbers.
Notable streamers who made it to last month's list, but did not make it this month or who did not stream at all: MarineKing, MC.
If you find any mistakes or errors in the lists, please do let me know, especially concerning team changes or players that you are absolutely sure should be on the lists, but are not.
The big picture
(The actual numbers are not important, it's the ratio between month that's important.)
Note that these are player streams only.
Due to the missing data, the graph skips one month. Player stream viewer numbers have been quite stable in the past few months.
WCS/GSL
Overall, WCS numbers are quite stable. The Ro16 groups for both WCS EU and WCS NA are comparable to last season's numbers, which is also true for the Ro4 GSL numbers. Let's see how the finals do.
That's all for this month. Hope you guys enjoyed, as always. Any kind of feedback is always welcome!
On October 01 2014 22:19 Chylvain wrote: I respect the passion of Winter for this game, but I can't understand how people can watch this stream and like it...
Yesterday I wrote "Rise the Kappa guys!" in thr chat, 3k viwers, only 3 or 4 answered. Meh, usually with 100 viewers there's more activity in the chat...
On October 01 2014 22:19 Chylvain wrote: I respect the passion of Winter for this game, but I can't understand how people can watch this stream and like it...
Yesterday I wrote "Rise the Kappa guys!" in thr chat, 3k viwers, only 3 or 4 answered. Meh, usually with 100 viewers there's more activity in the chat...
On October 01 2014 22:19 Chylvain wrote: I respect the passion of Winter for this game, but I can't understand how people can watch this stream and like it...
Yesterday I wrote "Rise the Kappa guys!" in thr chat, 3k viwers, only 3 or 4 answered. Meh, usually with 100 viewers there's more activity in the chat...
On October 01 2014 22:19 Chylvain wrote: I respect the passion of Winter for this game, but I can't understand how people can watch this stream and like it...
Yesterday I wrote "Rise the Kappa guys!" in thr chat, 3k viwers, only 3 or 4 answered. Meh, usually with 100 viewers there's more activity in the chat...
On October 01 2014 22:19 Chylvain wrote: I respect the passion of Winter for this game, but I can't understand how people can watch this stream and like it...
Yesterday I wrote "Rise the Kappa guys!" in thr chat, 3k viwers, only 3 or 4 answered. Meh, usually with 100 viewers there's more activity in the chat...
Maybe his viewers aren't retarded?
considering hes catering for 12 year old kids I would doubt it. And come on, a non retarded Twitch chat???
btw is Stephano still streaming his SH turtle style?? never get to watch him because of timezones...
Isn't it well known and publicly accepted that Winter's stream is filled with bots, which may or may not be his (If I read my sources correctly, it's out of his control, but who knows). Anyways, I find it slightly odd to have a stream KNOWN to be almost exclusively bots in the top 50 streamers list.
On October 01 2014 22:19 Chylvain wrote: I respect the passion of Winter for this game, but I can't understand how people can watch this stream and like it...
Yesterday I wrote "Rise the Kappa guys!" in thr chat, 3k viwers, only 3 or 4 answered. Meh, usually with 100 viewers there's more activity in the chat...
Maybe his viewers aren't retarded?
Maybe his viewers aren't viewers? Who knows
Look up all the arguments that happened before, if you are reasonably mature and don't think there is a huge conspiracy going on you will come to a fair conclusion. I am just not sure if you are even interested in doing that, hating is more fun.
What I'm just try to undestand why watch him. Nobody reaches 3k viewers EVERYTIME. Only Stephano and Grubby did sometimes, but often is lower then 3k. He can reach 3k latw in the night and also during GSL and Proleague. People like Parting, Rain, Innovation, DRG and lot of other dont reach 3k. So why? He is not famous, is not funny, hasn't skill and doesn't have boobs. So?
EDIT: also has very low activity in the chat for having lot of viewers
On October 01 2014 22:37 SuperHofmann wrote: What I'm just try to undestand why watch him. Nobody reaches 3k viewers EVERYTIME. Only Stephano and Grubby did sometimes, but often is lower then 3k. He can reach 3k latw in the night and also during GSL and Proleague. People like Parting, Rain, Innovation, DRG and lot of other dont reach 3k. So why? He is not famous, is not funny, hasn't skill and doesn't have boobs. So?
Why do more people listen to justin bieber than to well crafted music? Oh there are different tastes, who would have known
How anyone can look at Winter's 451,074 V*H and think hes not V*botting? That's nearly 4x more than the closest competitors (who have built their fanbase(s) since the dawn of sc2 time). Not to mention the EPIC slowness of his chat considering there are 4x more people diving in and out of his channel. What kind of person spam joins channels without at least spamming the chat? Robots, that's who.
On October 01 2014 22:19 Chylvain wrote: I respect the passion of Winter for this game, but I can't understand how people can watch this stream and like it...
Yesterday I wrote "Rise the Kappa guys!" in thr chat, 3k viwers, only 3 or 4 answered. Meh, usually with 100 viewers there's more activity in the chat...
Maybe his viewers aren't retarded?
considering hes catering for 12 year old kids I would doubt it. And come on, a non retarded Twitch chat???
btw is Stephano still streaming his SH turtle style?? never get to watch him because of timezones...
Yes i am sure he is catering for 12 year olds, that might be the reason he gets huge amounts of donations every month, little children have a lot of money to spend
On October 01 2014 22:39 iMOOrtal wrote: How anyone can look at Winter's 451,074 V*H and think hes not V*botting? That's nearly 4x more than the closest competitors (who have built their fanbase(s) since the dawn of sc2 time). Not to mention the EPIC slowness of his chat considering there are 4x more people diving in and out of his channel. What kind of person spam joins channels without at least spamming the chat? Robots, that's who.
Yeah I don't understand how this guy gets so many 'viewers'.
MC's stream is pure garbage, it's not even worth being mentioned.
He only plays Starcraft II 30% of the time. In the rest he is AFK, probably eating. Of this 30%, only one third of the time he is playing in Ladder. In the rest he is playing boring custom games.
In other words, we can only watch him laddering on 10% of the time he streams.
I dont get how there are still people defending him. Open that stream, try to find the 2k human viewers. He is between Parting and Stephano in terms of average viewers, how is that not telling the story.
On October 01 2014 22:44 SuperHofmann wrote: Give me a reason to watch him and not a good progamer, please
Unlike most pro streams, he actually interacts with his chat almost constantly, and keeps his stream delay as low as possible for just that. Sure, he's not someone you want to watch if you're looking for the best gameplay, but most viewers really aren't! They're just looking for something fun to watch, and the streamer interacting directly with the chat helps out immensely with that.
On October 01 2014 22:44 SuperHofmann wrote: Give me a reason to watch him and not a good progamer, please
He is entertaining. I mean, he is not a pro, but he interacts with his users and he plays for fun. I dont watch his stream that often, but when i tune in its fun.
I watch winter (and am not 12, nor retarded imo). After playing terran for 2.5 years at a low plat level at best, I switched to zerg and beat a top plat protoss after watching a few of his streams. He gave me the information and confidence to start playing as all races, and made the game more enjoyable for me. This is why I watch. Not to mention he's a masters player as all races and certainly high masters as zerg, likely better than most people complaining. As for his viewer #'s, he seems to get way more donations than other people I watch such as minigun, not a hard fact, but a decent sign that they are real.
When I watch a football (soccer for US) I wanna watch the best teams, Bayern vs Barca, Madrid vs Paris, etc... When I watch a stream it's the same logic, I wanna see pro gamers because they have almost the perfect style of how to play this game.
I just don't understand when I see 1500 viewers of the god JD vs 3000 viewers of random master player.
On October 01 2014 23:30 Chylvain wrote: When I watch a football (soccer for US) I wanna watch the best teams, Bayern vs Barca, Madrid vs Paris, etc... When I watch a stream it's the same logic, I wanna see pro gamers because they have almost the perfect style of how to play this game.
I just don't understand when I see 1500 viewers of the god JD vs 3000 viewers of random master player.
Gotta keep in mind there's also a ton of casuals. While we at TL might think 100% of the SC2 community is tryhard super dedicated and spends more time microing 2 workers in a patch than playing arcade or going for the infamous 6 pool triple queen attack.
Some people watch to learn, others for entertainment. A bad player can still be highly entertaining...
Why does anyone care if one player that is not a pro has so many viewers? Does it really hurt anyone that there are more ppl watching 'random' SC2 streams? I don't really think so.
Blind accusations (without evidence that is) will hurt the SC2 (streaming) community. Advertisers don't like that stuff. And that is bad for everyone.
after reading the top 3 streamernames I thought: winter doesnt deserve to be up there.
thats when you know something is wrong, cause its simply a list of who has the best numbers, but we all know winters numbers are not accurate. Im not saying its his fault but cmon... he should be able to do something about it, contact twitch to help him etc. The reason I dont like him is cause I think this guy doesnt want the viewbots removed. Remember, this is the guy who posted "Im winter the new sc2 nr. 1 streamer" on sc2 subreddit.
On October 01 2014 23:30 Chylvain wrote: When I watch a football (soccer for US) I wanna watch the best teams, Bayern vs Barca, Madrid vs Paris, etc... When I watch a stream it's the same logic, I wanna see pro gamers because they have almost the perfect style of how to play this game.
I just don't understand when I see 1500 viewers of the god JD vs 3000 viewers of random master player.
That's certainly a sensible opinion to have. But if you have a look at who's on twitch these days, it's becoming more and more obvious that "being good at the game" is one of the least important qualities to have for being popular. The streamers that are consistently popular on twitch are those that have a) an entertaining personality, and b) interact with their viewers. Very very few top twitch streamers, if any, do not interact with the chat in one way or another.
So, yes, there are many, many people who would rather watch someone who interacts with the chat and is entertaining rather than watch the best player just play his game in silence. You may not like it, but that's how it is.
I personally think that's quite unfortunate for SC2, since it is a game that requires a ton of concentration and skill at the highest level, and quite often, as a player, you just can't play and interact at the same time. So you can either play not quite as good and interact (thus losing the unique feature of being one of the best), or not interact (thus losing the interest of your viewers). Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
I watch Avilo because it's relaxing (muted). I can look away or only half watch and be assured nothing has occured during the time I missed. It's like the SC2 fireplace channel.
On October 01 2014 23:30 Chylvain wrote: When I watch a football (soccer for US) I wanna watch the best teams, Bayern vs Barca, Madrid vs Paris, etc... When I watch a stream it's the same logic, I wanna see pro gamers because they have almost the perfect style of how to play this game.
I just don't understand when I see 1500 viewers of the god JD vs 3000 viewers of random master player.
Yeah, as much as Barcelona was super unbeatable team last years, their game was actually boring. So i did not watch their matches unless playing vs "my" team. I love aggressive offensive style, not passing in the middle no matter how hard that can be(and it is, I know, I play the game )). I will rather watch Ajax in mid-90s than FCB. Or see the Netherlands - Czech Republic game from Euro 04 and I know it's not the best play possible but hell the game was entertaining I enjoyed the FC Slavia Prague game on Arsenal(they lost in London 7:0) or against Seville(0:3 at home), because they did not play the defensive style about "we cannot get a goal, defend in 11 players!!!".
It's about entertaining value and, well, Korean players are not entertaining When I remember White-Ra's stream and his "what should I do next? Carrier rush? OK" And he did it! Successfully. Sometimes
Hmm, BTW, does Twitch count viewers from livestreamers?
Editus - too many hells... working too long today...
On October 01 2014 22:19 Chylvain wrote: I respect the passion of Winter for this game, but I can't understand how people can watch this stream and like it...
Yesterday I wrote "Rise the Kappa guys!" in thr chat, 3k viwers, only 3 or 4 answered. Meh, usually with 100 viewers there's more activity in the chat...
Maybe his viewers aren't retarded?
considering hes catering for 12 year old kids I would doubt it. And come on, a non retarded Twitch chat???
btw is Stephano still streaming his SH turtle style?? never get to watch him because of timezones...
The Starcraft BW VODs have a really good Twitch chat. But it's rare to see someone typing there As for Winter... Well at least he talks. Watching a progamer giving me a seasure while spamming camera hotkeys while not explain AT ALL what he is doing... Well that's no fun, and i can't learn from that.
But i can learn from a less good player but that actually explain stuff. Then when you see the proplayer doing it on his screen you're like : "oooh that's why he does that". I learned more with Diamond/Masters player than actual progamers. I didn't find a lot of them who talks or explain. iDra was so good when he was explaining (but that was not all the time)
On October 01 2014 22:44 Zealously wrote: If you don't have any sources more credible than "his chat is quiet", stop making accusations and bashing Winter.
I've tried watching his stream and I could not understand why it was popular, at all, BUT from what I remember there was a pretty comprehensive comparison of chat speed between him and other channels and there wasn't a significant difference.
Still do not understand it at all, but gotta respect how much work he puts in.
I watch Winter, a lot, over other streamers ... he actually communicates, plays random (so more variance in matchups), and I've learned a great deal from his commentary. The "viewbots!" argument has been debunked over and over and over in these threads ... Winter really is that popular, he gets like $8k in donations per month, and streams very regularly.
I don't know what is funnier : seeing how many people disagree seeing winter as a "top streamer" and getting warned/banned, or the fact he is actually in the top list.
Twitch would surely catch on to suspicious stream numbers relating to viewbotting, if their numbers are wildly inaccurate then their whole ad-dependent model becomes pretty useless right?
I know folks don't really get the Winter appeal and don't want to believe the numbers.
I've seen tons of informative streams, people who do analysis, play with viewers etc. What I think would be an interesting discussion is as to why Winter's had success with his model/promotion etc.
IMO there are guys who do what he does, better but what they don't have is consistency. I get quite into Artosis' stream and he returns to the wilderness for a while for example. Similar style when it comes to breakdown of games, a bigger 'name' in the scene who is respected, but because it's more of a sideshow for him it doesn't gain that traction.
Frankly it seems that like SC2 vs other titles, the market is niche for streams that are 'watch me play this game I'm fucking awesome at it'.
There is frankly a LOT of Twitch content that mystifies me, but I suppose the existence of viewers who aren't me (relatively elitist, hyper-competitive nerd) is a good sign for Twitch in the long run.
Other things I believe worth considering:
1. How many total streamers are there for SC2? There seem to be a lot of people hovering in the 30-100 viewer bracket at all times, which may be driven away from the big names' numbers, even to a limited degree.
2. Next-gen consoles, they have Twitch broadcasting abilities built-in iirc. While there may not be crossover and it's not that difficult to set up OBS, it's still a potential factor.
Thanks for doing this, would be cool if you could do something like: The non-featured streamer with the most average viewers*hours played gets featured after every month or something like that
On October 02 2014 00:18 jtp118 wrote: I watch Winter, a lot, over other streamers ... he actually communicates, plays random (so more variance in matchups), and I've learned a great deal from his commentary. The "viewbots!" argument has been debunked over and over and over in these threads ... Winter really is that popular, he gets like $8k in donations per month, and streams very regularly.
do you realize how unrealistic it is to make +- 100k $ a year out of 3k viewers?
On October 01 2014 23:55 wari wrote: after reading the top 3 streamernames I thought: winter doesnt deserve to be up there.
thats when you know something is wrong, cause its simply a list of who has the best numbers, but we all know winters numbers are not accurate. Im not saying its his fault but cmon... he should be able to do something about it, contact twitch to help him etc. The reason I dont like him is cause I think this guy doesnt want the viewbots removed. Remember, this is the guy who posted "Im winter the new sc2 nr. 1 streamer" on sc2 subreddit.
he really said ""Im winter the new sc2 nr. 1 streamer"?
thats badass, hes the man, making sure everyone else knows their place
Seems pretty reasonable to me and rather in-depth. There might be something I'm missing but it looks a pretty solid defence.
Christ I hate this, Winter is the absolute epitome of 2000 stream overlay, casual-pandering, donation-demanding content that I don't like on a personal level, but he indisputably puts the hour and the work in and it seems to be paying off for the guy.
Winter is popular enough to have made 90% of this thread about him. So a lot of people is going to watch his stream to see what it's all about. I'm sure everytime a guy got warned, there is another one that said : "Hey, what's the fuss, i need to watch this guy".
On October 02 2014 00:18 jtp118 wrote: I watch Winter, a lot, over other streamers ... he actually communicates, plays random (so more variance in matchups), and I've learned a great deal from his commentary. The "viewbots!" argument has been debunked over and over and over in these threads ... Winter really is that popular, he gets like $8k in donations per month, and streams very regularly.
do you realize how unrealistic it is to make +- 100k $ a year out of 3k viewers?
do you realize that he streams 200 hours a month and has a ton of very dedicated viewers who give him large donations? ffs, Nony gets like $15k per year in donations and has an average of 250 viewers ...
On October 01 2014 22:44 Zealously wrote: If you don't have any sources more credible than "his chat is quiet", stop making accusations and bashing Winter.
I've tried watching his stream and I could not understand why it was popular, at all, BUT from what I remember there was a pretty comprehensive comparison of chat speed between him and other channels and there wasn't a significant difference.
Still do not understand it at all, but gotta respect how much work he puts in.
Yup. From my perspective, I don't find it as insightful or entertaining as other streams. But you know what, for people new to the game or in the lower leagues, his stream is really good. They get some tidbits of information, they get tips on how to improve what to focus on, and Winter seems like a nice enough dude.
I can see what viewer base he caters too and he's as close as we have to an entertainer who streams in SC2. Incontrol comes in a bit higher in my books for entertainer player but he doesnt stream nearly as regularly as winter and random really broadens Winter's stream appeal as well.
On October 02 2014 00:18 jtp118 wrote: I watch Winter, a lot, over other streamers ... he actually communicates, plays random (so more variance in matchups), and I've learned a great deal from his commentary. The "viewbots!" argument has been debunked over and over and over in these threads ... Winter really is that popular, he gets like $8k in donations per month, and streams very regularly.
do you realize how unrealistic it is to make +- 100k $ a year out of 3k viewers?
Not unrealistic at all.. a lot of the big name streamers on twitch only get around 3k viewers and they have that many or more subscribers + donations. It's pretty sick actually...
On October 02 2014 00:09 Nirel wrote: The views seem to have stabilized for the last 6 months which is good I think, and lol at Stephano being #1 even so deep into retirement.
That's only because of novelty; he streamed fewer than ten hours this month. I can't consider the first table to be a good ranking system of anything particularly useful; I think the second is much more telling.
Also, I want to throw in with the Winter defense. Non-stop commentary, Random at a high level, engagement with his viewers and chat, and his stream is formatted so that even the banners and donation lists are interesting and flashy. One can't really quantify exactly how many additional viewers or dollars that each visual or audial benefit should accrue, but I find myself watching his stream if my favorite pro-gamers aren't streaming, because Winter and his stream are just... engaging. Whatever he's doing, he's certainly doing it right.
On October 02 2014 00:18 jtp118 wrote: I watch Winter, a lot, over other streamers ... he actually communicates, plays random (so more variance in matchups), and I've learned a great deal from his commentary. The "viewbots!" argument has been debunked over and over and over in these threads ... Winter really is that popular, he gets like $8k in donations per month, and streams very regularly.
do you realize how unrealistic it is to make +- 100k $ a year out of 3k viewers?
Not unrealistic at all.. a lot of the big name streamers on twitch only get around 3k viewers and they have that many or more subscribers + donations. It's pretty sick actually...
How big are the "big name streamers" we are talking about? Since "big" is subjective I just want to know what your perspective on "Big" is. Because the ones I think of, like: Arteezy, SingSing, Dendi, Sodapoppin, Kripparrian + a huge number of popular LoL streamers from Fnatic/Dignitas/TSM are all easily averaging 8k. Most of the time they are way above 10k (apart from Sodapoppin maybe. But that guy has so many subs he has to be mentioned I think.
There are some big names like Siglemic who isn't getting as many viewers anymore because the interest for speedrunning has died down a lot since it's pretty repetative.
Mind giving some examples of steamers you consider big that sit around 3k viewers?
Hope this doesn't come off as condescending, Only interested to hear your opinion since we obviously share a pretty different view on what a "big name streamer" is.
On October 02 2014 00:18 jtp118 wrote: I watch Winter, a lot, over other streamers ... he actually communicates, plays random (so more variance in matchups), and I've learned a great deal from his commentary. The "viewbots!" argument has been debunked over and over and over in these threads ... Winter really is that popular, he gets like $8k in donations per month, and streams very regularly.
do you realize how unrealistic it is to make +- 100k $ a year out of 3k viewers?
Not unrealistic at all.. a lot of the big name streamers on twitch only get around 3k viewers and they have that many or more subscribers + donations. It's pretty sick actually...
How big are the "big name streamers" we are talking about? Since "big" is subjective I just want to know what your perspective on "Big" is. Because the ones I think of, like: Arteezy, SingSing, Dendi, Sodapoppin, Kripparrian + a huge number of popular LoL streamers from Fnatic/Dignitas/TSM are all easily averaging 8k. Most of the time they are way above 10k (apart from Sodapoppin maybe. But that guy has so many subs he has to be mentioned I think.
There are some big names like Siglemic who isn't getting as many viewers anymore because the interest for speedrunning has died down a lot since it's pretty repetative.
Mind giving some examples of steamers you consider big that sit around 3k viewers?
Hope this doesn't come off as condescending, Only interested to hear your opinion since we obviously share a pretty different view on what a "big name streamer" is.
DansGaming and Towelliee are the two most obvious examples.
Also Cohhcarnage, Elloheim or however you spell that. Man vs Game, Tatman etc etc.. there are a ton actually. Some of those listed actually average a lot less than 3k but make well over 100k a year.
On October 02 2014 00:09 Nirel wrote: The views seem to have stabilized for the last 6 months which is good I think, and lol at Stephano being #1 even so deep into retirement.
That's only because of novelty; he streamed fewer than ten hours this month. I can't consider the first table to be a good ranking system of anything particularly useful; I think the second is much more telling.
Also, I want to throw in with the Winter defense. Non-stop commentary, Random at a high level, engagement with his viewers and chat, and his stream is formatted so that even the banners and donation lists are interesting and flashy. One can't really quantify exactly how many additional viewers or dollars that each visual or audial benefit should accrue, but I find myself watching his stream if my favorite pro-gamers aren't streaming, because Winter and his stream are just... engaging. Whatever he's doing, he's certainly doing it right.
Also, he totally looks like Bo Burnham.
He plays Random at a low-mid master level, right? Other than that he plays Gold players as Protoss (or seems to, the few times I've tuned in). His stream layout is actually quite obnoxious. So many random words everywhere. A good example of a nice stream layout would be ROOT/Liquid/EG streams. I suppose I understand why people watch him, but his viewers must be either younger and/or ranked below Diamond. His judgment calls on battles or what the opponent is doing seems to be far off (when he's playing Master players) quite often.
Now I can't unsee Bo Burnham, but that will make it more enjoyable for me when/if I see him at HomeStory. xD Imagine if Bo Burnham actually played/did commentary on SC2.
On October 02 2014 00:09 Nirel wrote: The views seem to have stabilized for the last 6 months which is good I think, and lol at Stephano being #1 even so deep into retirement.
That's only because of novelty; he streamed fewer than ten hours this month. I can't consider the first table to be a good ranking system of anything particularly useful; I think the second is much more telling.
Also, I want to throw in with the Winter defense. Non-stop commentary, Random at a high level, engagement with his viewers and chat, and his stream is formatted so that even the banners and donation lists are interesting and flashy. One can't really quantify exactly how many additional viewers or dollars that each visual or audial benefit should accrue, but I find myself watching his stream if my favorite pro-gamers aren't streaming, because Winter and his stream are just... engaging. Whatever he's doing, he's certainly doing it right.
Also, he totally looks like Bo Burnham.
He plays Random at a low-mid master level, right? Other than that he plays Gold players as Protoss (or seems to, the few times I've tuned in). His stream layout is actually quite obnoxious. So many random words everywhere. A good example of a nice stream layout would be ROOT/Liquid/EG streams. I suppose I understand why people watch him, but his viewers must be either younger and/or ranked below Diamond. His judgment calls on battles or what the opponent is doing seems to be far off (when he's playing Master players) quite often.
Now I can't unsee Bo Burnham, but that will make it more enjoyable for me when/if I see him at HomeStory. xD Imagine if Bo Burnham actually played/did commentary on SC2.
You have to understand that his stream is quite diverse. - He plays vs master lvl - he plays "educational" bronze to masters - He plays trollgames bronze to masters - he has a tournament going on once a week - he does subscriber games
He just does a lot of different stuff, all while being active with his chat and even more important: Pretty much every single day at the same timeslots. He studies marketing afaik, you can see how that would help i guess. His mods are really strict, you won't see spam/trolls or anything there for the most part. Link me to a sc2 streamer who does all that while also being that "talkative" , i don't think there is one and that might be the reason he has this much success atm. It really isn't rocket science to "understand" it imo, even though people keep repeating that phrase, i actually "don't understand" how you can't understand it (except you are being elitist and think the majority of people are in GM and want to see someone playing with over 9000 apm)
On October 02 2014 02:51 ThomasjServo wrote: Jesus, I wish I had as much time as Winter does to stream.
I assume that this is his job now. Gets income from this and goes to school also. I give props to anyone who can successfully make streaming into a steady income source. I would love to make even 4k a month from playing Starcraft lol
Just to throw this into the Winter discussion, which I think is stupid...
I've seen numerous times recently where he has 600-800 viewers, or even a little less, especially when there have been some of these new koreans and other popular players streaming. So... what? He just forgot to turn his viewbots on those days? That makes a lot of sense. Or maybe he did have his bots on but he actually had 0 viewers because they were watching the other streams? Even if that were somehow the case that still means he's getting 2000+ viewers often. Stupid discussion.
Those statistics don't make any fucking sense if you don't put in parallel the geographic dispersion of the audience and the time at which the streamers stream on average. I don't even get the point of getting trouble doing all this work because without the former information that is just useless and meaningless. (well it's great to have all that data, don't get me wrong, but don't asspull conclusions and pretend it is what this data means)
Example out of ass: If A gets more V*H than B, when 80% of the audience is north american, and A mainly streams between 6pm and 11pm EDT while B streams mainly between 3am and 4am EDT then you can't say shit about who is more popular between A and B.
And despite that there are all those people arguing with arguments which are not even correlated to what they use it to argue for.....
The only way for any discussion in this thread to possibly have made sense would have been if all the streamers from the list always streamed at the same time for the same amount of time. (and the V*H does not even slightly compensate for that, because stream hours in different locations are not equally popular themselves).
Seriously....
What this data is good for is to see the time evolution of the average viewer number for SC and for each player individually, and even then it would need to also have a track of the evolution of the streaming schedules of players to be accurate. So Stephano average viewer drop between now and February does not necessarily mean SC or Stephano are less popular. It could just be that Stephano changed the time at which he is streaming to a less popular time slot or that the popularity of the time slot itself could evolve during the year.
When you present statistical data and conclusions based on it, it is your responsibility to give warnings and statements about the possible flaws of its interpretation. If you don't, profane people will believe in false gods and engage in bloody crusades based on irrelevant knowledge like in this thread, wasting both their time and trust.Edit: it sounds a bit like I am bashing the OP but no, there is no out of place conclusion in OP post. However there is no indication for people on how to interpret it correclty.
Even in grad school of Math & Physics most students (just personal experience) are still unable to comment statistical data properly, so be careful with it. And whatever your data, when you draw conclusions ALWAYS assume that there is at least an unkown factor which has been missed and is supposed to affect the results in some way.
TL;DR statistics are not to use lightly, please edit OP with proper reading advices and remind people that none of the data can lead to popularity conclusions.
I am an avid Winter watcher, a mod in his channel in fact and it saddens me to see all the anger coming his way.
I was drawn to Winter's stream because I didn't play SC2 when it first came out, as I was tied down with other commitments when it released. I played SC1 and BW when I was younger but never competitively. Fast forward to 2013 when I finally have some time and want to play SC2. I finish the campaign, do a few easy/medium bot games and feel I am ready to play against actual people but get destroyed horribly. So I try to use resources to get better. I go to watch some streamers, because that is how I got better at other games I played at the time...and what am I greeted with on Twitch? My choice of several streams of people who were "good" but I had no idea who they were and most of the streams were in Korean. They didn't say anything, they listened to music I couldn't understand, and most of the time played on the Korean servers so I didn't even know what the units were. I had no idea what was happening and couldn't garner any useful information from that. Even the GSL/WCS games I watched, I couldn't understand. I had no idea what the heck a 1-1 stim push was, what a doom drop was, or any of the lingo. I could barely understand what units belonged to what races.
Winter aims to bridge the gap in skill between someone who just beat there first AI on hard and people who have something resembling an idea of what they are doing. Hell, I still don't know how to pull off a timing attack, but thanks to Winter at least I know what it is.
Winter plays against players that are the skill level I am, and in 5 minutes will be playing against people I want to beat/be as good as. All the while explaining what he is doing, what his opponent is doing wrong and answering questions we have in chat. Yes, he isn't a pro-gamer, he isn't a GM bar code, but that IS NOT what he is trying to do. He is trying to get MORE people into SC2. Most people understand that SC2 is a unforgiving beast when it comes to skill level, so that puts a lot of us off when we try to approach it. Winter helps and makes it a little easier to get our faces smashed on the ladder.
As for the viewbot claims, it is just some comment made by Richard Lewis (Unfiltered) that someone who isn't pro can't have that many viewers without botting...which he later clarified that he was joking and has since apologized for the sh*t storm it caused. Also, Twitch recently partnered with Winter to give him front-page time, they wouldn't promote someone who is botting. Chat is slow, because we have alot of lurkers who are just watching and learning. Not every Twitch chat has to have the KPM raised, and giant Hitler faces in the chat to have people in it.
As a mod, I quickly squash "typical" Twitch chat antics because I want the chat to be slow/clear enough for people to ask questions, and get them answered. The other mods are similar, we want to keep Winter's stream educational and benefit people like it has benefited us.
TL:DR Winter wants people to play SC2, he helps noobs get better and makes the game approachable. He isn't the best player, but he isn't trying to be. He doesn't viewbot and his mods police his chat to a crawl so you can ask questions without them getting lost in KPM spam.
On October 02 2014 03:31 Erastin wrote: Incoming Wall-o-text:
I am an avid Winter watcher, a mod in his channel in fact and it saddens me to see all the anger coming his way.
I was drawn to Winter's stream because I didn't play SC2 when it first came out, as I was tied down with other commitments when it released. I played SC1 and BW when I was younger but never competitively. Fast forward to 2013 when I finally have some time and want to play SC2. I finish the campaign, do a few easy/medium bot games and feel I am ready to play against actual people but get destroyed horribly. So I try to use resources to get better. I go to watch some streamers, because that is how I got better at other games I played at the time...and what am I greeted with on Twitch? My choice of several streams of people who were "good" but I had no idea who they were and most of the streams were in Korean. They didn't say anything, they listened to music I couldn't understand, and most of the time played on the Korean servers so I didn't even know what the units were. I had no idea what was happening and couldn't garner any useful information from that. Even the GSL/WCS games I watched, I couldn't understand. I had no idea what the heck a 1-1 stim push was, what a doom drop was, or any of the lingo. I could barely understand what units belonged to what races.
Winter aims to bridge the gap in skill between someone who just beat there first AI on hard and people who have something resembling an idea of what they are doing. Hell, I still don't know how to pull off a timing attack, but thanks to Winter at least I know what it is.
Winter plays against players that are the skill level I am, and in 5 minutes will be playing against people I want to beat/be as good as. All the while explaining what he is doing, what his opponent is doing wrong and answering questions we have in chat. Yes, he isn't a pro-gamer, he isn't a GM bar code, but that IS NOT what he is trying to do. He is trying to get MORE people into SC2. Most people understand that SC2 is a unforgiving beast when it comes to skill level, so that puts a lot of us off when we try to approach it. Winter helps and makes it a little easier to get our faces smashed on the ladder.
As for the viewbot claims, it is just some comment made by Richard Lewis (Unfiltered) that someone who isn't pro can't have that many viewers without botting...which he later clarified that he was joking and has since apologized for the sh*t storm it caused. Also, Twitch recently partnered with Winter to give him front-page time, they wouldn't promote someone who is botting. Chat is slow, because we have alot of lurkers who are just watching and learning. Not every Twitch chat has to have the KPM raised, and giant Hitler faces in the chat to have people in it.
As a mod, I quickly squash "typical" Twitch chat antics because I want the chat to be slow/clear enough for people to ask questions, and get them answered. The other mods are similar, we want to keep Winter's stream educational and benefit people like it has benefited us.
TL:DR Winter wants people to play SC2, he helps noobs get better and makes the game approachable. He isn't the best player, but he isn't trying to be. He doesn't viewbot and his mods police his chat to a crawl so you can ask questions without them getting lost in KPM spam.
Good post and welcome to TL!
I'm in a similar (kind of) boat to you, but for SC2 read Brood War. I played it casually enough, BGH etc and didn't even realise the whole eSport side of things. Subsequently I feel really sad that I missed out at the time, also went backwards voraciously consuming content where I can. Took quite a while to know even a little of what the heck was going on in terms of pro strats, storylines etc.
I would have loved for some kind of equivalent streamer to ease me in to things. Winter is pretty much doing that for those who have come to the game now, or recently rather than us folks who've been around since the start of WoL.
On October 02 2014 03:14 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote: Those statistics don't make any fucking sense if you don't put in parallel the geographic dispersion of the audience and the time at which the streamers stream on average. I don't even get the point of getting trouble doing all this work because without the former information that is just useless and meaningless. (well it's great to have all that data, don't get me wrong, but don't asspull conclusions and pretend it is what this data means)
Example out of ass: If A gets more V*H than B, when 80% of the audience is north american, and A mainly streams between 6pm and 11pm EDT while B streams mainly between 3am and 4am EDT then you can't say shit about who is more popular between A and B.
And despite that there are all those people arguing with arguments which are not even correlated to what they use it to argue for.....
The only way for any discussion in this thread to possibly have made sense would have been if all the streamers from the list always streamed at the same time for the same amount of time. (and the V*H does not even slightly compensate for that, because stream hours in different locations are not equally popular themselves).
Seriously....
What this data is good for is to see the time evolution of the average viewer number for SC and for each player individually, and even then it would need to also have a track of the evolution of the streaming schedules of players to be accurate. So Stephano average viewer drop between now and February does not necessarily mean SC or Stephano are less popular. It could just be that Stephano changed the time at which he is streaming to a less popular time slot or that the popularity of the time slot itself could evolve during the year.
When you present statistical data and conclusions based on it, it is your responsibility to give warnings and statements about the possible flaws of its interpretation. If you don't, profane people will believe in false gods and engage in bloody crusades based on irrelevant knowledge like in this thread, wasting both their time and trust.
Even in grad school of Math & Physics most students (just personal experience) are still unable to comment statistical data properly, so be careful with it. And whatever your data, when you draw conclusions ALWAYS assume that there is at least an unkown factor which has been missed and is supposed to affect the results in some way.
The data is even less meaningful than that, if you look at it that way. I would not only have to include the times of day the players stream in regards to their corresponding time zone (which is not even static, since players move from/to Korea all the time), I would also have to take into account the days they stream (weekend/non-weekends) and, in addition to that, take into account which other streams/events were streaming at that time (stream while WCS is on? That's gonna hurt your V*H rating).
Maybe I should mention something along those lines in the disclaimer in the OP, though I would say that this is fairly obvious, and that this is quite obviously not an objective list of popularity. But if I would take all these things into account (and have fun doing that month for month), it would still not be an objective list of popularity, because popularity is inherently subjective. I am assuming that people here are smart enough to know that.
On October 02 2014 03:14 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote: Those statistics don't make any fucking sense if you don't put in parallel the geographic dispersion of the audience and the time at which the streamers stream on average. I don't even get the point of getting trouble doing all this work because without the former information that is just useless and meaningless. (well it's great to have all that data, don't get me wrong, but don't asspull conclusions and pretend it is what this data means)
Example out of ass: If A gets more V*H than B, when 80% of the audience is north american, and A mainly streams between 6pm and 11pm EDT while B streams mainly between 3am and 4am EDT then you can't say shit about who is more popular between A and B.
And despite that there are all those people arguing with arguments which are not even correlated to what they use it to argue for.....
The only way for any discussion in this thread to possibly have made sense would have been if all the streamers from the list always streamed at the same time for the same amount of time. (and the V*H does not even slightly compensate for that, because stream hours in different locations are not equally popular themselves).
Seriously....
What this data is good for is to see the time evolution of the average viewer number for SC and for each player individually, and even then it would need to also have a track of the evolution of the streaming schedules of players to be accurate. So Stephano average viewer drop between now and February does not necessarily mean SC or Stephano are less popular. It could just be that Stephano changed the time at which he is streaming to a less popular time slot or that the popularity of the time slot itself could evolve during the year.
When you present statistical data and conclusions based on it, it is your responsibility to give warnings and statements about the possible flaws of its interpretation. If you don't, profane people will believe in false gods and engage in bloody crusades based on irrelevant knowledge like in this thread, wasting both their time and trust.
Even in grad school of Math & Physics most students (just personal experience) are still unable to comment statistical data properly, so be careful with it. And whatever your data, when you draw conclusions ALWAYS assume that there is at least an unkown factor which has been missed and is supposed to affect the results in some way.
The data is even less meaningful than that, if you look at it that way. I would not only have to include the times of day the players stream in regards to their corresponding time zone (which is not even static, since players move from/to Korea all the time), I would also have to take into account the days they stream (weekend/non-weekends) and, in addition to that, take into account which other streams/events were streaming at that time (stream while WCS is on? That's gonna hurt your V*H rating).
Maybe I should mention something along those lines in the disclaimer in the OP, though I would say that this is fairly obvious, and that this is quite obviously not an objective list of popularity. But if I would take all these things into account (and have fun doing that month for month), it would still not be an objective list of popularity, because popularity is inherently subjective. I am assuming that people here are smart enough to know that.
Yes indeed to do "popularity" statistics or at least compare one player to another "evenly" it would require a lot more work and parameters to look at. If you ever plan to work on those (good luck with that!) I hope some teams sponsor you because it would be strong material for business decision making (but i guess twitch already give/sell it to them?). I don't know wtf team managers are doing but after a 20k+ viewer WCS/tournament finishes, there is not rush of players streaming to capitalize on the huge instantaneous viewer pool.
Just want to say I was not criticizing your work, all data is good data after all, but rather the way people used it for those popularity and Winter arguments.
And seeing how most of the thread are arguments on popularity ( and by that I mean "how much people like player X"). I think a comment/guideline in the OP would be much useful because obviously people are not armed to read it (not blaming, it might just not be obvious for readers).
On October 02 2014 00:09 Nirel wrote: The views seem to have stabilized for the last 6 months which is good I think, and lol at Stephano being #1 even so deep into retirement.
That's only because of novelty; he streamed fewer than ten hours this month. I can't consider the first table to be a good ranking system of anything particularly useful; I think the second is much more telling.
Also, I want to throw in with the Winter defense. Non-stop commentary, Random at a high level, engagement with his viewers and chat, and his stream is formatted so that even the banners and donation lists are interesting and flashy. One can't really quantify exactly how many additional viewers or dollars that each visual or audial benefit should accrue, but I find myself watching his stream if my favorite pro-gamers aren't streaming, because Winter and his stream are just... engaging. Whatever he's doing, he's certainly doing it right.
Also, he totally looks like Bo Burnham.
He plays Random at a low-mid master level, right? Other than that he plays Gold players as Protoss (or seems to, the few times I've tuned in). His stream layout is actually quite obnoxious. So many random words everywhere. A good example of a nice stream layout would be ROOT/Liquid/EG streams. I suppose I understand why people watch him, but his viewers must be either younger and/or ranked below Diamond. His judgment calls on battles or what the opponent is doing seems to be far off (when he's playing Master players) quite often.
Now I can't unsee Bo Burnham, but that will make it more enjoyable for me when/if I see him at HomeStory. xD Imagine if Bo Burnham actually played/did commentary on SC2.
You have to understand that his stream is quite diverse. - He plays vs master lvl - he plays "educational" bronze to masters - He plays trollgames bronze to masters - he has a tournament going on once a week - he does subscriber games
He just does a lot of different stuff, all while being active with his chat and even more important: Pretty much every single day at the same timeslots. He studies marketing afaik, you can see how that would help i guess. His mods are really strict, you won't see spam/trolls or anything there for the most part. Link me to a sc2 streamer who does all that while also being that "talkative" , i don't think there is one and that might be the reason he has this much success atm. It really isn't rocket science to "understand" it imo, even though people keep repeating that phrase, i actually "don't understand" how you can't understand it (except you are being elitist and think the majority of people are in GM and want to see someone playing with over 9000 apm)
Yeah it makes sense. I would say that most people who are Master+ want to see Master+ play. Regardless of commentary and whatnot. But I understand that there are far more people below Master than not. A stream I can link would be to CatZ' stream. Partially why I dislike or have a hard time understanding Winter's numbers is when someone like CatZ who is actually a very good and VERY creative player, does stream daily, and has a better looking stream, but also does "Inside My Head", "Music Mode" (where he sings and is goofy), "Tryhard Mode" (no talk, best games possible) and mixtures of each depending on what subs/donators/viewers want to see. Yet I often see him at around 300 viewers. Even lately he has been doing showmatches on his stream vs known pros. (Nestea a couple days ago, DRG last night) either Bo7 or Bo9.
I guess I can say I understand why Winter's numbers are where they are, but what I can't understand is when someone has arguably a better stream (at least in my opinion), is a better player, and still manages to get far less viewers. Maybe it is that marketing degree. Lol. Ah well, enough Winter talk I suppose.
The numbers are interesting and it's really cool to see. I often miss some players because of time zone differences, only to see they've streamed ~50 hours and I completely missed all of it. xD
I don't think most people who watch sc2 streams on twitch are doing it for educational purposes or to improve their level of play. That time spent watching a stream could be used to actually play the game, improve mechanics and learn from their own mistakes. So in the case of Winter I guess a lot of people just find his stream entertaining for whatever reason, I am not going to hate on that.
On October 01 2014 22:44 SuperHofmann wrote: Give me a reason to watch him and not a good progamer, please
he explains the game. when i watch a pro gamer he starts building units because he scouted something, but he dosent say WHAT he scouted. winter constantly babbels about why he does what he does. It's really great insight and helped me a ton. before i was just sending my stuff to the other guy and i saw what he did, but i didnt know what it meant and how to react. winters constant commentary on what things mean helped me quite a bit.
On October 01 2014 22:35 SC2Toastie wrote: Isn't it well known and publicly accepted that Winter's stream is filled with bots, which may or may not be his (If I read my sources correctly, it's out of his control, but who knows). Anyways, I find it slightly odd to have a stream KNOWN to be almost exclusively bots in the top 50 streamers list.
User was warned for this post
Twitch has come out and said he's not botting, as well as several big figures within the community. He was recently invited to HSC to host alongside incontrol....where in the world do you get this "It's well known he bots" from?
Winter seems like a nice guy. I occasionally watch him if there's no pros that I find interesting streaming, and it's reasonably entertaining, so good on him for getting the viewers.
On October 02 2014 03:42 paddyz wrote: Protech still easily streaming more than everyone else, the guy is a machine, mad props.
391 hours in September and he still barely made the top 50 list. I wonder if the extra 2v2 streamer competition will put him off the list
I don't really follow 2v2 streams... what new 2v2 competition/ streamers are there that you're referring to? Anyone in particular you'd recommend us watching?
On October 02 2014 03:14 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote: Those statistics don't make any fucking sense if you don't put in parallel the geographic dispersion of the audience and the time at which the streamers stream on average. I don't even get the point of getting trouble doing all this work because without the former information that is just useless and meaningless. (well it's great to have all that data, don't get me wrong, but don't asspull conclusions and pretend it is what this data means)
Example out of ass: If A gets more V*H than B, when 80% of the audience is north american, and A mainly streams between 6pm and 11pm EDT while B streams mainly between 3am and 4am EDT then you can't say shit about who is more popular between A and B.
And despite that there are all those people arguing with arguments which are not even correlated to what they use it to argue for.....
The only way for any discussion in this thread to possibly have made sense would have been if all the streamers from the list always streamed at the same time for the same amount of time. (and the V*H does not even slightly compensate for that, because stream hours in different locations are not equally popular themselves).
Seriously....
What this data is good for is to see the time evolution of the average viewer number for SC and for each player individually, and even then it would need to also have a track of the evolution of the streaming schedules of players to be accurate. So Stephano average viewer drop between now and February does not necessarily mean SC or Stephano are less popular. It could just be that Stephano changed the time at which he is streaming to a less popular time slot or that the popularity of the time slot itself could evolve during the year.
When you present statistical data and conclusions based on it, it is your responsibility to give warnings and statements about the possible flaws of its interpretation. If you don't, profane people will believe in false gods and engage in bloody crusades based on irrelevant knowledge like in this thread, wasting both their time and trust.Edit: it sounds a bit like I am bashing the OP but no, there is no out of place conclusion in OP post. However there is no indication for people on how to interpret it correclty.
Even in grad school of Math & Physics most students (just personal experience) are still unable to comment statistical data properly, so be careful with it. And whatever your data, when you draw conclusions ALWAYS assume that there is at least an unkown factor which has been missed and is supposed to affect the results in some way.
TL;DR statistics are not to use lightly, please edit OP with proper reading advices and remind people that none of the data can lead to popularity conclusions.
Holy fuck you are entitled.
Conti presents the numbers and people draw conclusions. Stupid people draw stupid conclusions. Get over it
On October 02 2014 03:14 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote: Those statistics don't make any fucking sense if you don't put in parallel the geographic dispersion of the audience and the time at which the streamers stream on average. I don't even get the point of getting trouble doing all this work because without the former information that is just useless and meaningless. (well it's great to have all that data, don't get me wrong, but don't asspull conclusions and pretend it is what this data means)
Example out of ass: If A gets more V*H than B, when 80% of the audience is north american, and A mainly streams between 6pm and 11pm EDT while B streams mainly between 3am and 4am EDT then you can't say shit about who is more popular between A and B.
And despite that there are all those people arguing with arguments which are not even correlated to what they use it to argue for.....
The only way for any discussion in this thread to possibly have made sense would have been if all the streamers from the list always streamed at the same time for the same amount of time. (and the V*H does not even slightly compensate for that, because stream hours in different locations are not equally popular themselves).
Seriously....
What this data is good for is to see the time evolution of the average viewer number for SC and for each player individually, and even then it would need to also have a track of the evolution of the streaming schedules of players to be accurate. So Stephano average viewer drop between now and February does not necessarily mean SC or Stephano are less popular. It could just be that Stephano changed the time at which he is streaming to a less popular time slot or that the popularity of the time slot itself could evolve during the year.
When you present statistical data and conclusions based on it, it is your responsibility to give warnings and statements about the possible flaws of its interpretation. If you don't, profane people will believe in false gods and engage in bloody crusades based on irrelevant knowledge like in this thread, wasting both their time and trust.Edit: it sounds a bit like I am bashing the OP but no, there is no out of place conclusion in OP post. However there is no indication for people on how to interpret it correclty.
Even in grad school of Math & Physics most students (just personal experience) are still unable to comment statistical data properly, so be careful with it. And whatever your data, when you draw conclusions ALWAYS assume that there is at least an unkown factor which has been missed and is supposed to affect the results in some way.
TL;DR statistics are not to use lightly, please edit OP with proper reading advices and remind people that none of the data can lead to popularity conclusions.
Holy fuck you are entitled.
Conti presents the numbers and people draw conclusions. Stupid people draw stupid conclusions. Get over it
Yes I am, get over it.
At least I developed my point and gave suggestions relevant to the actual thread.
On October 02 2014 03:14 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote: Those statistics don't make any fucking sense if you don't put in parallel the geographic dispersion of the audience and the time at which the streamers stream on average. I don't even get the point of getting trouble doing all this work because without the former information that is just useless and meaningless. (well it's great to have all that data, don't get me wrong, but don't asspull conclusions and pretend it is what this data means)
Example out of ass: If A gets more V*H than B, when 80% of the audience is north american, and A mainly streams between 6pm and 11pm EDT while B streams mainly between 3am and 4am EDT then you can't say shit about who is more popular between A and B.
And despite that there are all those people arguing with arguments which are not even correlated to what they use it to argue for.....
The only way for any discussion in this thread to possibly have made sense would have been if all the streamers from the list always streamed at the same time for the same amount of time. (and the V*H does not even slightly compensate for that, because stream hours in different locations are not equally popular themselves).
Seriously....
What this data is good for is to see the time evolution of the average viewer number for SC and for each player individually, and even then it would need to also have a track of the evolution of the streaming schedules of players to be accurate. So Stephano average viewer drop between now and February does not necessarily mean SC or Stephano are less popular. It could just be that Stephano changed the time at which he is streaming to a less popular time slot or that the popularity of the time slot itself could evolve during the year.
When you present statistical data and conclusions based on it, it is your responsibility to give warnings and statements about the possible flaws of its interpretation. If you don't, profane people will believe in false gods and engage in bloody crusades based on irrelevant knowledge like in this thread, wasting both their time and trust.Edit: it sounds a bit like I am bashing the OP but no, there is no out of place conclusion in OP post. However there is no indication for people on how to interpret it correclty.
Even in grad school of Math & Physics most students (just personal experience) are still unable to comment statistical data properly, so be careful with it. And whatever your data, when you draw conclusions ALWAYS assume that there is at least an unkown factor which has been missed and is supposed to affect the results in some way.
TL;DR statistics are not to use lightly, please edit OP with proper reading advices and remind people that none of the data can lead to popularity conclusions.
Holy fuck you are entitled.
Conti presents the numbers and people draw conclusions. Stupid people draw stupid conclusions. Get over it
Yes I am, get over it.
At least I developed my point and gave suggestions relevant to the actual thread.
The problem with your argument is assuming that people would read his disclaimers. If you're not very smart and likely to draw absurd conclusions from this data, then you're not the sort of person to carefully parse the text for disclaimers. And if the OP would write it in huge bold letters then it starts to really be condescending to his audience. Instead he just posts the data and that's it.
On October 02 2014 00:09 Nirel wrote: The views seem to have stabilized for the last 6 months which is good I think, and lol at Stephano being #1 even so deep into retirement.
That's only because of novelty; he streamed fewer than ten hours this month. I can't consider the first table to be a good ranking system of anything particularly useful; I think the second is much more telling.
Also, I want to throw in with the Winter defense. Non-stop commentary, Random at a high level, engagement with his viewers and chat, and his stream is formatted so that even the banners and donation lists are interesting and flashy. One can't really quantify exactly how many additional viewers or dollars that each visual or audial benefit should accrue, but I find myself watching his stream if my favorite pro-gamers aren't streaming, because Winter and his stream are just... engaging. Whatever he's doing, he's certainly doing it right.
Also, he totally looks like Bo Burnham.
He plays Random at a low-mid master level, right? Other than that he plays Gold players as Protoss (or seems to, the few times I've tuned in). His stream layout is actually quite obnoxious. So many random words everywhere. A good example of a nice stream layout would be ROOT/Liquid/EG streams. I suppose I understand why people watch him, but his viewers must be either younger and/or ranked below Diamond. His judgment calls on battles or what the opponent is doing seems to be far off (when he's playing Master players) quite often.
Now I can't unsee Bo Burnham, but that will make it more enjoyable for me when/if I see him at HomeStory. xD Imagine if Bo Burnham actually played/did commentary on SC2.
You have to understand that his stream is quite diverse. - He plays vs master lvl - he plays "educational" bronze to masters - He plays trollgames bronze to masters - he has a tournament going on once a week - he does subscriber games
He just does a lot of different stuff, all while being active with his chat and even more important: Pretty much every single day at the same timeslots. He studies marketing afaik, you can see how that would help i guess. His mods are really strict, you won't see spam/trolls or anything there for the most part. Link me to a sc2 streamer who does all that while also being that "talkative" , i don't think there is one and that might be the reason he has this much success atm. It really isn't rocket science to "understand" it imo, even though people keep repeating that phrase, i actually "don't understand" how you can't understand it (except you are being elitist and think the majority of people are in GM and want to see someone playing with over 9000 apm)
Yeah it makes sense. I would say that most people who are Master+ want to see Master+ play. Regardless of commentary and whatnot. But I understand that there are far more people below Master than not. A stream I can link would be to CatZ' stream. Partially why I dislike or have a hard time understanding Winter's numbers is when someone like CatZ who is actually a very good and VERY creative player, does stream daily, and has a better looking stream, but also does "Inside My Head", "Music Mode" (where he sings and is goofy), "Tryhard Mode" (no talk, best games possible) and mixtures of each depending on what subs/donators/viewers want to see. Yet I often see him at around 300 viewers. Even lately he has been doing showmatches on his stream vs known pros. (Nestea a couple days ago, DRG last night) either Bo7 or Bo9.
I guess I can say I understand why Winter's numbers are where they are, but what I can't understand is when someone has arguably a better stream (at least in my opinion), is a better player, and still manages to get far less viewers. Maybe it is that marketing degree. Lol. Ah well, enough Winter talk I suppose.
The numbers are interesting and it's really cool to see. I often miss some players because of time zone differences, only to see they've streamed ~50 hours and I completely missed all of it. xD
This is what I'm curious about... I was pretty busy all summer and now it feels like this guy came out of nowhere. (Don't get me wrong, I'm absolutely jealous that the guy I've practically never heard of is suddenly invited to cast HSC:X)
On October 02 2014 00:09 Nirel wrote: The views seem to have stabilized for the last 6 months which is good I think, and lol at Stephano being #1 even so deep into retirement.
That's only because of novelty; he streamed fewer than ten hours this month. I can't consider the first table to be a good ranking system of anything particularly useful; I think the second is much more telling.
Also, I want to throw in with the Winter defense. Non-stop commentary, Random at a high level, engagement with his viewers and chat, and his stream is formatted so that even the banners and donation lists are interesting and flashy. One can't really quantify exactly how many additional viewers or dollars that each visual or audial benefit should accrue, but I find myself watching his stream if my favorite pro-gamers aren't streaming, because Winter and his stream are just... engaging. Whatever he's doing, he's certainly doing it right.
Also, he totally looks like Bo Burnham.
He plays Random at a low-mid master level, right? Other than that he plays Gold players as Protoss (or seems to, the few times I've tuned in). His stream layout is actually quite obnoxious. So many random words everywhere. A good example of a nice stream layout would be ROOT/Liquid/EG streams. I suppose I understand why people watch him, but his viewers must be either younger and/or ranked below Diamond. His judgment calls on battles or what the opponent is doing seems to be far off (when he's playing Master players) quite often.
Now I can't unsee Bo Burnham, but that will make it more enjoyable for me when/if I see him at HomeStory. xD Imagine if Bo Burnham actually played/did commentary on SC2.
You have to understand that his stream is quite diverse. - He plays vs master lvl - he plays "educational" bronze to masters - He plays trollgames bronze to masters - he has a tournament going on once a week - he does subscriber games
He just does a lot of different stuff, all while being active with his chat and even more important: Pretty much every single day at the same timeslots. He studies marketing afaik, you can see how that would help i guess. His mods are really strict, you won't see spam/trolls or anything there for the most part. Link me to a sc2 streamer who does all that while also being that "talkative" , i don't think there is one and that might be the reason he has this much success atm. It really isn't rocket science to "understand" it imo, even though people keep repeating that phrase, i actually "don't understand" how you can't understand it (except you are being elitist and think the majority of people are in GM and want to see someone playing with over 9000 apm)
Yeah it makes sense. I would say that most people who are Master+ want to see Master+ play. Regardless of commentary and whatnot. But I understand that there are far more people below Master than not. A stream I can link would be to CatZ' stream. Partially why I dislike or have a hard time understanding Winter's numbers is when someone like CatZ who is actually a very good and VERY creative player, does stream daily, and has a better looking stream, but also does "Inside My Head", "Music Mode" (where he sings and is goofy), "Tryhard Mode" (no talk, best games possible) and mixtures of each depending on what subs/donators/viewers want to see. Yet I often see him at around 300 viewers. Even lately he has been doing showmatches on his stream vs known pros. (Nestea a couple days ago, DRG last night) either Bo7 or Bo9.
I guess I can say I understand why Winter's numbers are where they are, but what I can't understand is when someone has arguably a better stream (at least in my opinion), is a better player, and still manages to get far less viewers. Maybe it is that marketing degree. Lol. Ah well, enough Winter talk I suppose.
The numbers are interesting and it's really cool to see. I often miss some players because of time zone differences, only to see they've streamed ~50 hours and I completely missed all of it. xD
This is what I'm curious about... I was pretty busy all summer and now it feels like this guy came out of nowhere. (Don't get me wrong, I'm absolutely jealous that the guy I've practically never heard of is suddenly invited to cast HSC:X)
Winter is here from the very begining. He didn't come out of nowhere
On October 02 2014 00:54 jtp118 wrote: it looks like Protech leads a rich and fulfilling life
How is this not warned lol.... biggest troll in the whole thread. So Winter has an army of admins defending people accusing him of V*Bing, but actual attacks on people go free? Zealously where are you? Ned Stark? Winter is coming?
Also please put a disclaimer saying people can't question Winter, I thought this was maybe the only place we could talk about the numbers but I guess not. Although it seems like it is the place to personally attack SC2 players character, which if it is, I will proceed to do if this bro isn't warned. I guess we can't talk about V*B with Winter, but we can insult him personally? Sounds good to me.
On October 02 2014 00:54 jtp118 wrote: it looks like Protech leads a rich and fulfilling life
How is this not warned lol.... biggest troll in the whole thread. So Winter has an army of admins defending people accusing him of V*Bing, but actual attacks on people go free? Zealously where are you? Ned Stark? Winter is coming?
Also please put a disclaimer saying people can't question Winter, I thought this was maybe the only place we could talk about the numbers but I guess not. Although it seems like it is the place to personally attack SC2 players character, which if it is, I will proceed to do if this bro isn't warned. I guess we can't talk about V*B with Winter, but we can insult him personally? Sounds good to me.
An attack/alternatively it could drawing attention to Protech's numbers which indicate that he would have to stream about 12 hours every day for a whole month.
On October 02 2014 00:54 jtp118 wrote: it looks like Protech leads a rich and fulfilling life
How is this not warned lol.... biggest troll in the whole thread. So Winter has an army of admins defending people accusing him of V*Bing, but actual attacks on people go free? Zealously where are you? Ned Stark? Winter is coming?
Also please put a disclaimer saying people can't question Winter, I thought this was maybe the only place we could talk about the numbers but I guess not. Although it seems like it is the place to personally attack SC2 players character, which if it is, I will proceed to do if this bro isn't warned. I guess we can't talk about V*B with Winter, but we can insult him personally? Sounds good to me.
An attack/alternatively it could drawing attention to Protech's numbers which indicate that he would have to stream about 12 hours every day for a whole month.
I don't know why Protech seems to require such defending lol, Painuser used to get a lot of good-natured jokes at his expense due to his streaming schedule/falling asleep on stream and whatnot.
On October 02 2014 00:54 jtp118 wrote: it looks like Protech leads a rich and fulfilling life
How is this not warned lol.... biggest troll in the whole thread. So Winter has an army of admins defending people accusing him of V*Bing, but actual attacks on people go free? Zealously where are you? Ned Stark? Winter is coming?
Also please put a disclaimer saying people can't question Winter, I thought this was maybe the only place we could talk about the numbers but I guess not. Although it seems like it is the place to personally attack SC2 players character, which if it is, I will proceed to do if this bro isn't warned. I guess we can't talk about V*B with Winter, but we can insult him personally? Sounds good to me.
An attack/alternatively it could drawing attention to Protech's numbers which indicate that he would have to stream about 12 hours every day for a whole month.
but that's exactly what he does, protech treats streaming as a full time job and commits to it for at least 8 hours a day and then some extra hours either for fun, or if he's getting good tips.
On October 02 2014 22:19 Wombat_NI wrote: I don't know why Protech seems to require such defending lol, Painuser used to get a lot of good-natured jokes at his expense due to his streaming schedule/falling asleep on stream and whatnot.
I haven't read all topic, but alot of this is disgusting.
I watch Winter, I like it, I'm even better than him, so why do I watch it? Because he talks alot about the game, his insights as a random player are not even that bad, yes at first i thought wtf is this guy? but after watching a few times I started enjoying it.
"Why don't you watch other streams of pro's?" I do, I love Incontrol, I love Rotti, I love Ret , I love Desrow,lately aswell. Why? Because they interact with the stream and talk fun stuff during their games. If one of these are not online, Winter is, I go watch Winter... Most koreans are very boring to watch IMO and only type english in chat, which i don't always follow, because I fullscreen streamers on my 2nd screen while laddering, also the korean music is annoying as ****, but that is my opinion. Which is also the reason why i hate State's stream (no offense).
Please don't go crying if people like Lowko ,will soon also be at the topstreams with "viewbotting". Since it probably won't be. I think Winter is legit being watched by people who mainly like to lurk and listen to a fun stream. edit : Him being Random also really helps the viewership, I probably wouldn't watch if he was 1 race.
I dont watch much SC2 anymore since im heavily invested into hearthstone.
Seeing from my own personal growth this year on twitch, consistency is everything.
Winter is on everyday streaming his ASS off. Everyday, day in day out. He got popular during the time(if im not mistaken) not much was going on the SC2 world other than Destiny streaming every night(which he for the most part has gotten significantly more stale than he was when I watched him but hes still good and it doesnt matter what game he streams, he'll prob get 2k.)
This community is pretty big on witch hunting, one of the reasons why I left it, but winter doesnt viewbot and it isnt an active chat game like Hearthstone. Alot of people sit back watch and learn sc2. Alot of the views do actually come the TL portal unlike other games which you are forced to find the stream via twitch = high chance of talking. If TL embded twitch chat into their thing, you would see a huge increase in everyone's chats. I watched destiny for 3 years and never chatted because of the TL portal not being chat friendly.
He got insanely lucky that he grew, but people in the SC2 community are always so butt-hurt and want to ruin someones day for it. Nothing has really changed here in a year.
On October 02 2014 00:54 jtp118 wrote: it looks like Protech leads a rich and fulfilling life
How is this not warned lol.... biggest troll in the whole thread. So Winter has an army of admins defending people accusing him of V*Bing, but actual attacks on people go free? Zealously where are you? Ned Stark? Winter is coming?
Also please put a disclaimer saying people can't question Winter, I thought this was maybe the only place we could talk about the numbers but I guess not. Although it seems like it is the place to personally attack SC2 players character, which if it is, I will proceed to do if this bro isn't warned. I guess we can't talk about V*B with Winter, but we can insult him personally? Sounds good to me.
Please take issues with moderation to Website Feedback and refrain from derailing this thread.
On October 02 2014 00:54 jtp118 wrote: it looks like Protech leads a rich and fulfilling life
How is this not warned lol.... biggest troll in the whole thread. So Winter has an army of admins defending people accusing him of V*Bing, but actual attacks on people go free? Zealously where are you? Ned Stark? Winter is coming?
Also please put a disclaimer saying people can't question Winter, I thought this was maybe the only place we could talk about the numbers but I guess not. Although it seems like it is the place to personally attack SC2 players character, which if it is, I will proceed to do if this bro isn't warned. I guess we can't talk about V*B with Winter, but we can insult him personally? Sounds good to me.
An attack/alternatively it could drawing attention to Protech's numbers which indicate that he would have to stream about 12 hours every day for a whole month.
Are you some kind of retarded downy? THE CONTENT IS STREAMED YOU RETARDED FUCK. Every single fucking hour is streamed and you have the AUDACITY to make unbelievable nonsensical comments like this. This is why TL and Reddit are pure trash filth like you that infest the community.
On October 02 2014 00:54 jtp118 wrote: it looks like Protech leads a rich and fulfilling life
How is this not warned lol.... biggest troll in the whole thread. So Winter has an army of admins defending people accusing him of V*Bing, but actual attacks on people go free? Zealously where are you? Ned Stark? Winter is coming?
Also please put a disclaimer saying people can't question Winter, I thought this was maybe the only place we could talk about the numbers but I guess not. Although it seems like it is the place to personally attack SC2 players character, which if it is, I will proceed to do if this bro isn't warned. I guess we can't talk about V*B with Winter, but we can insult him personally? Sounds good to me.
An attack/alternatively it could drawing attention to Protech's numbers which indicate that he would have to stream about 12 hours every day for a whole month.
Are you some kind of retarded downy? THE CONTENT IS STREAMED YOU RETARDED FUCK. Every single fucking hour is streamed and you have the AUDACITY to make unbelievable nonsensical comments like this. This is why TL and Reddit are pure trash filth like you that infest the community.
User was temp banned for this post.
Jesus Christ. I merely meant 'people are poking harmless fun at someone streaming 12 hours a day on average'. Wasn't even malicious, Painuser used to have jokes around this that didn't turn nasty.
What the fuck is this?
I was actually going to come back and post something positive about your dedication to your stream. Hell I've even tuned in. You've annoyed me with your attitude in the past by blatantly detailing anything Destiny-related but this is just ridiculous.
You have an appalling attitude married to a constant victim complex.
Say what you want about Winter, he would never ever post something so over-the-top and disproportionate, even your arch nemesis Destiny wouldn't. Ridiculous
On October 02 2014 03:42 paddyz wrote: Protech still easily streaming more than everyone else, the guy is a machine, mad props.
391 hours in September and he still barely made the top 50 list. I wonder if the extra 2v2 streamer competition will put him off the list
I don't really follow 2v2 streams... what new 2v2 competition/ streamers are there that you're referring to? Anyone in particular you'd recommend us watching?
Baz (Baz_33)& practiseX are probably the 2 best Terran NA 2v2 players and both stream regularly these days. Dara (2x2ActionFox) has got back to streaming too. The rest are fairly inconsistent like Lillikanin or Night usually don't stream 2v2 anymore, but now and again they do. Also there just seems to be more random people streaming 2v2s.
On October 03 2014 03:16 loft wrote: Twitch Bot Detector @BotDetectorBot Follow http://twitch.tv/puckk (SC2: HotS) appears to have a false-viewer bot (~568 extra viewers of 673 total) #puckk 6:12 PM - 30 Sep 2014
On October 03 2014 03:16 loft wrote: Twitch Bot Detector @BotDetectorBot Follow http://twitch.tv/puckk (SC2: HotS) appears to have a false-viewer bot (~568 extra viewers of 673 total) #puckk 6:12 PM - 30 Sep 2014
I think BaseTrade hosted him that night.
That thing was unreliable, doesnt actually show who is botting, and doesnt take hosting into account. Never use that for anything other than to circle jerk yourself.
On October 03 2014 03:16 loft wrote: Twitch Bot Detector @BotDetectorBot Follow http://twitch.tv/puckk (SC2: HotS) appears to have a false-viewer bot (~568 extra viewers of 673 total) #puckk 6:12 PM - 30 Sep 2014
I think BaseTrade hosted him that night.
That thing was unreliable, doesnt actually show who is botting, and doesnt take hosting into account. Never use that for anything other than to circle jerk yourself.
To be fair, the bot was around before hosting was a thing. But even then it was fairly unreliable.
On October 02 2014 03:42 paddyz wrote: Protech still easily streaming more than everyone else, the guy is a machine, mad props.
391 hours in September and he still barely made the top 50 list. I wonder if the extra 2v2 streamer competition will put him off the list
I don't really follow 2v2 streams... what new 2v2 competition/ streamers are there that you're referring to? Anyone in particular you'd recommend us watching?
Baz (Baz_33)& practiseX are probably the 2 best Terran NA 2v2 players and both stream regularly these days. Dara (2x2ActionFox) has got back to streaming too. The rest are fairly inconsistent like Lillikanin or Night usually don't stream 2v2 anymore, but now and again they do. Also there just seems to be more random people streaming 2v2s.
On October 02 2014 00:54 jtp118 wrote: it looks like Protech leads a rich and fulfilling life
How is this not warned lol.... biggest troll in the whole thread. So Winter has an army of admins defending people accusing him of V*Bing, but actual attacks on people go free? Zealously where are you? Ned Stark? Winter is coming?
Also please put a disclaimer saying people can't question Winter, I thought this was maybe the only place we could talk about the numbers but I guess not. Although it seems like it is the place to personally attack SC2 players character, which if it is, I will proceed to do if this bro isn't warned. I guess we can't talk about V*B with Winter, but we can insult him personally? Sounds good to me.
An attack/alternatively it could drawing attention to Protech's numbers which indicate that he would have to stream about 12 hours every day for a whole month.
Are you some kind of retarded downy? THE CONTENT IS STREAMED YOU RETARDED FUCK. Every single fucking hour is streamed and you have the AUDACITY to make unbelievable nonsensical comments like this. This is why TL and Reddit are pure trash filth like you that infest the community.
User was temp banned for this post.
I always thought that the reputation of forums get tarnished because of people who post in all caps and make inappropriate and immature comments.
Anyways, congrats on remaining in this list of top streamers.
Good to see Protech handling the questions regarding his streaming habits with such grace and impeccable composure.
Anyway, if Destiny can pull the kind of numbers he does on a regular basis, why wouldn't Winter be able to? Pretty much all personal streams have gone down the shitter as far as numbers go, seems perfectly sensible that someone with a different approach could pull larger numbers.
On October 03 2014 11:59 JP Dayne wrote: why not just ask twitch about them bots? they can identify and dissolve any doubt about these numbers, can't they?
They did and concluded that there was nothing particularly shady about Winter's numbers. Several people with actual knowledge of streaming have agreed to that as well.
I can confirm that this Winter kid is supicious. Everyone doubts his activities since spring this year when he was getting 3000 /viewers/bots as a diamond level player.
Today I was in his stream, again 1700 people watching, the same 20 people actually chatting. And those 20 were pretty angry when I mention something about botting and banned me.
If I remember that Desrow who worked his ass off with streaming, creating content, teaching players how to play, even playing on tournaments, WCS etc. Now he has audience that Winter has except he actually worked for it and it took him nearly 3 years to get there. Winter just get this audiance from day to day.
1,7k has usually Khaldor in this time of day when he's casting some game from Korea.
And the recent TOP streamers list from TL is embarrasing aswell. How can Winter beat players like Stephano who used to have 15k viewers or basically anyone. Grubby, Parting, DeMuslim are more famous and entertaining than he will ever will be.
I say: Let's boycott his attendence at homestory cup!
There's no point in bitching about winter anymore. He's too visible and too big now; even if he was or is viewbotting he has enough real viewers to have plausible deniability. Winter will be a host for a SC2 Tournament. Hate him or think he's doesn't deserve anything, shit don't matter.
On October 01 2014 22:19 Chylvain wrote: I respect the passion of Winter for this game, but I can't understand how people can watch this stream and like it...
Yesterday I wrote "Rise the Kappa guys!" in thr chat, 3k viwers, only 3 or 4 answered. Meh, usually with 100 viewers there's more activity in the chat...
On October 01 2014 23:30 Chylvain wrote: I personally think that's quite unfortunate for SC2, since it is a game that requires a ton of concentration and skill at the highest level, and quite often, as a player, you just can't play and interact at the same time. So you can either play not quite as good and interact (thus losing the unique feature of being one of the best), or not interact (thus losing the interest of your viewers). Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
I agree with this, although I hardly have viewers when I tried to talk and interact with the people I had about 12 viewers than the usual but lost all games because I couldn't do both things, when I just play I have about 3 or less.
the graph of overall viewers is what i look at, the names change but the viewer numbers are what matter overall. i think legacy of the void will bump the numbers back up, when it comes out.
It's never a good idea to argue over the internet, especially against haters, but here goes...
Winter does a great job interacting with the stream and he explains a lot. Spelling out the reasons that motivate his actions and going into the details of scouting the way he does is exactly what the stream wants apparently. Keep in mind his viewers, or 'viewers' as some of you imply with the subtlety of a chainsaw-wielding surgeon, are not good enough to learn from silent streams like Stephano's or Parting's.
Just saying, good job. I watch that stream.
EDIT: What is so unbelievable about rising stars? Instant fame is older than instant coffee.
EDIT2: Maybe his playing random attracts more viewers also. Most streamers play only one race, thus appealing to less players. Watching 9 match-ups instead of 3.
I watch Winter. Why? Because he's a decent player, has passion for the game, and narrates his game play. Plus he typically plays random so you get to potentially see different gameplay from match to match. So stop hating and go watch whomever you like better.
Since you guys were making such a big fuss about Winter in the Homestory Cup announcement thread, in this thread and Winter bashing on the front page of the sc2 subreddit, you've generated enough curiosity for me to tune in and see what the hate is all about.
On October 05 2014 22:37 SpikeStarcraft wrote: Since you guys were making such a big fuss about Winter in the Homestory Cup announcement thread, in this thread and Winter bashing on the front page of the sc2 subreddit, you've generated enough curiosity for me to tune in and see what the hate is all about.
+1 VIEWER AND ITS ALL YOUR FAULT!
Haha I did the same thing this morning. And the guy is streaming since like 10am it's 4pm and he is still live
i think i watched 100+ hours of winter alrdy, typed 2 lines in chat, 1 question that got answered immediately, and 1 "tx for the answer afterwards"
i watch winter cos he constantly talks while playing, something a pro would never do when training seriously i asked him if his apm go down when he talks that much and he said he has about 30-40 apm less when talking so he prefers good stream interaction over flawless play, which is xactly why i watch it
if i want a progame, i can choose the replay that suits me best and i can choose what music i listen meanwhile... most progamer-streams are just like watching a random ladder-replay with music i dont like
there are exeptions (incontrol, grubby) but whenever i wanna watch....winter is online, the exeptions rarely are
also if those viewernumbers are all bots these must be rich bots for all the donations they give
and suggesting to boykott HSC:X cos you dont like winter should warrant a permaban imho, thats gotta beat CAPS, bad manners and childish hate
On October 06 2014 00:26 C4reful wrote: and suggesting to boykott HSC:X cos you dont like winter should warrant a permaban imho, thats gotta beat CAPS, bad manners and childish hate
See, the Winter situation is funny. On one side we have people who absolutely despise him and his success and wish nothing but fire and brimstone upon him. On the other side we have people who think insulting Winter or suggesting a boycott (while absurd, hardly bannable) should be moderated more harshly than anyone else.
On October 06 2014 00:52 lopido wrote: i dont understand why winter is even featured on TL !
You really don't?
yeah i dont, he is neither a pro player or a notorious commentator. So why Featuring him cuz he has viewers ? let's say if pewdiepie start streaming sc2, he will be featured ?
On October 06 2014 00:26 C4reful wrote: and suggesting to boykott HSC:X cos you dont like winter should warrant a permaban imho, thats gotta beat CAPS, bad manners and childish hate
See, the Winter situation is funny. On one side we have people who absolutely despise him and his success and wish nothing but fire and brimstone upon him. On the other side we have people who think insulting Winter or suggesting a boycott (while absurd, hardly bannable) should be moderated more harshly than anyone else.
its not about the insulting, its about suggesting to hurt TakeTVs income. it wouldnt even hurt winter himself, but a lot of other good ppl who got little to do with winter. thats messing with ppls livelyhood. if you dont like winter, go ahead and boykott winter. leave Take out of it.
On October 06 2014 00:26 C4reful wrote: and suggesting to boykott HSC:X cos you dont like winter should warrant a permaban imho, thats gotta beat CAPS, bad manners and childish hate
See, the Winter situation is funny. On one side we have people who absolutely despise him and his success and wish nothing but fire and brimstone upon him. On the other side we have people who think insulting Winter or suggesting a boycott (while absurd, hardly bannable) should be moderated more harshly than anyone else.
its not about the insulting, its about suggesting to hurt TakeTVs income. it wouldnt even hurt winter himself, but a lot of other good ppl who got little to do with winter. thats messing with ppls livelyhood. if you dont like winter, go ahead and boykott winter. leave Take out of it.
So?
People can suggest boycotting Take if they want, why should that be bannable? You make it sound like everyone HAS to watch HSC or else Take loses money, well shouldn't we watch everything all the time to "GROW ESPORTS"??
On October 06 2014 00:52 lopido wrote: i dont understand why winter is even featured on TL !
You really don't?
yeah i dont, he is neither a pro player or a notorious commentator. So why Featuring him cuz he has viewers ? let's say if pewdiepie start streaming sc2, he will be featured ?
If Pewdiepie started streaming Starcraft II regularly he would almost certainly be featured, yes.
EPT
There will be no comparison columns to the previous month this time around due to my, ahem, small problem I had with gathering data on the month before. Otherwise, everything's back to normal. Rejoice!![[image loading]](https://dl.dropbox.com/u/8028950/TL/top%2050%202014%2009.png)
![[image loading]](https://dl.dropbox.com/u/8028950/TL/top%2050%202014%2009x.png)
![[image loading]](https://dl.dropbox.com/u/8028950/TL/Monthly%20viewers%202014%2009.png)
![[image loading]](https://dl.dropbox.com/u/8028950/TL/WCS%202014%2009.png)
)). I will rather watch Ajax in mid-90s than FCB. Or see the Netherlands - Czech Republic game from Euro 04 and I know it's not the best play possible but hell the game was entertaining 
When I remember White-Ra's stream and his "what should I do next? Carrier rush? OK" And he did it! Successfully. Sometimes 
