EPT@mari
he had left kiev the day before the police left their stations in the capital. to 'shore up support' or because the right sector announced they would attack unless he resigned at 10 am the next day.
Ukraine Crisis - Page 542
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
@mari he had left kiev the day before the police left their stations in the capital. to 'shore up support' or because the right sector announced they would attack unless he resigned at 10 am the next day. | ||
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marigoldran
219 Posts
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On May 17 2014 22:22 nunez wrote: hey cheerio, what say you. lets strike a deal. i'll respond to that question, when you clarify your comments about bandera's wiki page. i am so tremendously curious. @mari he had left kiev the day before the police left their stations in the capital. to 'shore up support' or because the right sector announced they would attack unless he resigned at 10 am the next day. I dont need your response anymore - you were clearly guessing and throwing assumptions around. | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
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Mc
332 Posts
You are right that he didn't flee the country before being removed, but he did flee Kyiv. According to the links you posted from the Guardian on the evening of the 21st, after signing an agreement, he left Kiev yet Ukraine's state department didn't know exactly where: + Show Spoiler + One official said the state department believes that Yanukovych has left the Ukrainian capital of Kiev for the city of Kharkiv, in the east, “to shore up support there” – but that he has not fled the country. Officials are also investigating rumours that the interior minister has fled to Belarus, but have not yet confirmed those reports. I never suggested anything like "yanu felt a disturbance in the force,", but simply claimed that it's likely he feared being charged/detained for corruption and such (i.e. what he did to Tymoshenko). Claiming that because I said that, that you can say that there were protestors inside the rada is quite ridiculous. We have no proof of this, and even if we did it doesn't mean that the decisions of parliament were forced. Yes Yanukovych signed the deal BUT parliament needed to approve it, and then from what I surmise Yanukovych needed to sign parliaments approval (http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Ukraine,_2010#Article_94). Basically, it seems much more likely that the opportunistic politicians saw that there was no point in allying with Yanukovych (thus mass defection from the party of regions), and turned against him. This was much easier to do, because Yanukovych had shown that he is "giving in" (signing the deal), and that he has fled (thus not fulfilling his constitutional obligations). The argument that Parliamentarians were somehow forced to pass the law that removed Yanukovych from presidency does not have any evidence and doesn't seem to hold water, given that his party was defecting against him. The 72% voting to remove him seems reasonable given that 82% voted for Yatensyuk, while 72% voted for the composition of the interim government. I am fine with the argument that "his removal appears to be unconstitutional", because I don't have access to the actual decree that parliament passed. And finally, something to make you happy nunez (police in parliament, although briefly): + Show Spoiler + It appears that armed police did enter parliament but only briefly. Reuters reports they arrived while lawmakers were holding an emergency session “but they were quickly ejected, opposition leader Arseny Yatsenyuk said.” A photo of the incident is below: https://twitter.com/MatthewKeysLive/status/436788683530711040/photo/1 | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
a peace deal was made with the opposition, with international backing, maidan-hardliners like right sector rejected it and said they'd attack at 10 am the next day unless yanu resigned. at around 2 pm prolly the rada issues a motion for yanu to resign! at this point it's under full control by the maidan who were beating MOP's outside of it! come on... it was a coup led by maidan hardliners, and it might yet lead to civil-war in ukraine. maybe yanu saw it coming or maybe he's in on it! doesn't matter. | ||
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Greem
730 Posts
On May 17 2014 07:09 mahrgell wrote: It's hard to take you serious, when you always assume, that only your opinion is Ukrainian... And everyone opposing it must be Russian. Maybe you should finally accept, that Ukraine is more then Euromaidan and the western regions... It is quite funny... let's say, Euromaidan was at it's best representing two thirds of Ukraine (which I personally doubt, but whatever). Then Russia always tries to reduce it to the 20% right wing extremists that were among them, while you always try to paint it as 100% of Ukraine... Both sides are can hardly be taken serious... And both sides are not helping Ukraines situation at all. yep, i believe thats the cultral tendency in Kiev, not everybody from Kiev are Madain-like, but still. He completely ignores the other side of the moon in his posts, assumes the leaderships for the whole nation, nothing new here, but its ok, its a forum and there are no decisions here that will affect anything in real life, hes free to do and be whoever he wants, its just sad that this kind of actitude i think provoced another part of Ukraininas to react and polarize, anyway, im pretty sick ,i guess ill repeat myself a lot if i'll keep writing on this matter. What i understood from this Ukraine Crysis situation, is that in a country in crisis , where different opinions are involved there best option for the sake of others is too remain dead cold and almost neutral, i dont think its gonna apply to all the cases, but it would avoided Odessa masacre for sure, which was done purely by civil people. | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
http://w1.c1.rada.gov.ua/pls/radan_gs09/ns_golos?g_id=3863 Відсутній - absent За - Yes Не голосував - didn't vote | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On May 17 2014 23:20 Greem wrote: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing". There is no easy solution, each situation is unique.yep, i believe thats the cultral tendency in Kiev, not everybody from Kiev are Madain-like, but still. He completely ignores the other side of the moon in his posts, assumes the leaderships for the whole nation, nothing new here, but its ok, its a forum and there are no decisions here that will affect anything in real life, hes free to do and be whoever he wants, its just sad that this kind of actitude i think provoced another part of Ukraininas to react and polarize, anyway, im pretty sick ,i guess ill repeat myself a lot if i'll keep writing on this matter. What i understood from this Ukraine Crysis situation, is that in a country in crisis , where different opinions are involved there best option for the sake of others is too remain dead cold and almost neutral, i dont think its gonna apply to all the cases, but it would avoided Odessa masacre for sure, which was done purely by civil people. | ||
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Mc
332 Posts
Parliament turned on him before he fled actually- deputies resigned from party + Tyomshenko being released. As up to dozen more deputies were said to have deserted Yanukovych's party, the legislators also went beyond the settlement terms and humiliated the president by approving moves to release his arch-rival and former prime minister, Yulia Tymoshenko, from 30 months in jail source: FEBRUARY 21st article (yanukovych fled the night of February 21st). It's clear that parliament had turned against him, then he fled, and then parliament responded by a constitutionally-questionable "impeachment". Could you change your story again to correspond to this fact? edit: Thanks for the posting those guardian time-lines, they're great for establishing the truth. | ||
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marigoldran
219 Posts
Akhmetov is right. Both sides should settle down. Hopefully elect someone who is acceptable to the Russians, and then begin talks between everyone. If Ukraine wants to be a democracy, they better start learning how to talk to one another. Ironically enough the Ukrainian army is doing such a bad job they're actually winning sympathy points. EDIT: Also the Russians are starting to figure out that annexing East Ukraine is going to be horribly expensive. They're already looking at the bill from annexing Crimea and thinking "shit." | ||
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Greem
730 Posts
On May 17 2014 23:48 Cheerio wrote: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing". There is no easy solution, each situation is unique. You're so clever, GOOD man. Go find some more quotes please. The dividie in good and evil is for those who look to start a conflict in a first place, im sure if there is some injustice such calls are not needed, but its funny how you use things like this , just shows the depths of you understanding of the sitution. And btw, im originally from central Ukraine, and the opinions from my friends there are similar to mine, it means nothing, just shows that not everybody, no matter the part of country is agree with this Maidan stuff, so stop using your friends from whatever place there are to justify some opinions from other parts of Ukraine. | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
what are you trying to argue? @greem a stich in time saves nine. burn, colorados, burn. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands21116 Posts
On May 18 2014 00:16 marigoldran wrote: Well, neither side in the Ukraine crisis is particularly good at listening. When Yanu was in power he tried to crush the protesters, and now that the tables have turned East Ukrainians are fearful (and rightfully so) the West will return the favor. Akhmetov is right. Both sides should settle down. Hopefully elect someone who is acceptable to the Russians, and then begin talks between everyone. If Ukraine wants to be a democracy, they better start learning how to talk to one another. Ironically enough the Ukrainian army is doing such a bad job they're actually winning sympathy points. Why is East Ukraine afraid of West Ukraine (before the separatists surfaced)? Elections were coming up and there had been no action by the interim government against any interests of the east. | ||
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marigoldran
219 Posts
They do have legitimate grievances. EDIT: To start a fire you need fuel. The Russians provided the spark, but the tinder was already there. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On May 18 2014 00:19 Gorsameth wrote: Why is East Ukraine afraid of West Ukraine (before the separatists surfaced)? Elections were coming up and there had been no action by the interim government against any interests of the east. Because they're watching brainwashed Russian state TV all day. As you're pointing out the interim government has not done anything that would justify armed riots. They do have legitimate grievances. Which the interim(!) government has addressed by already guaranteeing more autonomy for the Eastern Ukrainian regions after the elections. | ||
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marigoldran
219 Posts
On May 18 2014 00:29 Nyxisto wrote: Because they're watching brainwashed Russian state TV all day. As you're pointing out the interim government has not done anything that would justify armed riots. I'm pretty confident after a generation of Soviet rule the Ukrainians would be cynical towards propaganda. They're about as brainwashed as you or I. EDIT: Promises are one thing. Trust is a different thing. The issue here is whether these promises made by the Kiev government will be believed. Remember: there was an agreement signed between Yanu and his opponents. Two days later he's overthrown. Even though many East Ukrainians would admit (if pressed) that Yanu was an incompetent corrupt fool, nonetheless actions such as signing an agreement and then overthrowing the president two days later do not inspire trust in the democratic process. | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On May 18 2014 00:16 Greem wrote: You're so clever, GOOD man. Go find some more quotes please. The dividie in good and evil is for those who look to start a conflict in a first place, im sure if there is some injustice such calls are not needed, but its funny how you use things like this , just shows the depths of you understanding of the sitution. good that you aksed, I got another one "The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
On the one hand there is this video that appears to show, that the demonstrators were hit from the back. The man in yellow on this recording goes even further. He was among the protesters who were on Institute Road for several hours that day. His name is Mikola , we met up with him at the scene of the events . He tells us that member of the opposition demonstrators were repeatedly shot in the back. fbMikola ( MONITOR translation ) : "Yes, on the twentieth , we were shot at from behind, from the Hotel Ukraina, from the 8th or 9th floor. " Reporter ( MONITOR translation ) : " From the eighth or ninth floor ?" Mikola ( MONITOR translation ) : " Yes , definitely almost from the very top . " Reporter ( MONITOR translation ) : " Up there ? " Mikola ( MONITOR translation ) : "Yes, there were people up there who shot , and from the other direction we were also fired upon . " Reporter ( MONITOR translation ): "And who shot from above? " Mikola ( MONITOR translation ) : " I do not know . " Reporter ( MONITOR translation ) : " Have you any idea ? " Mikola ( MONITOR translation ) : "They were mercenaries , definitely professionals. " The Ukraina hotel was then the center of the demonstrators. Was the eyewitness mistaken? We are on the road at night with investigator Sergei . Using a laser he shows us that there are not just lines of fire from the direction of the governmental buildings. Some bullet channels in the trees point in the opposite direction, when a laser is shot through the exit hole and the bullet hole, to high in Hotel Ukraina - then the headquarters of the opposition. wdr.de | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
it seems the deal was reported signed friday the 21st 2pm, he was overthrown the very next day 3:30 pm. not two days later (according to guardian). | ||
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