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Ukraine Crisis - Page 543

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There is a new policy in effect in this thread. Anyone not complying will be moderated.

New policy, please read before posting:
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marigoldran
Profile Joined April 2014
219 Posts
May 17 2014 15:42 GMT
#10841
One day, two days. Tomato, tomatoe. Why is that important? The key point here is he got overthrown really really quickly after he signed the deal.
nunez
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Norway4003 Posts
May 17 2014 15:47 GMT
#10842
that's like 2 times as many days.
conspired against by a confederacy of dunces.
marigoldran
Profile Joined April 2014
219 Posts
May 17 2014 15:49 GMT
#10843
LOL. Sure, for simplicity's sake let's just say he got overthrown ONE day after he signed the deal. Happy?
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
May 17 2014 15:50 GMT
#10844
On May 18 2014 00:31 marigoldran wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 18 2014 00:29 Nyxisto wrote:
On May 18 2014 00:19 Gorsameth wrote:
On May 18 2014 00:16 marigoldran wrote:
Well, neither side in the Ukraine crisis is particularly good at listening. When Yanu was in power he tried to crush the protesters, and now that the tables have turned East Ukrainians are fearful (and rightfully so) the West will return the favor.

Akhmetov is right. Both sides should settle down. Hopefully elect someone who is acceptable to the Russians, and then begin talks between everyone. If Ukraine wants to be a democracy, they better start learning how to talk to one another.

Ironically enough the Ukrainian army is doing such a bad job they're actually winning sympathy points.

Why is East Ukraine afraid of West Ukraine (before the separatists surfaced)? Elections were coming up and there had been no action by the interim government against any interests of the east.


Because they're watching brainwashed Russian state TV all day. As you're pointing out the interim government has not done anything that would justify armed riots.


I'm pretty confident after a generation of Soviet rule the Ukrainians would be cynical towards propaganda. They're about as brainwashed as you or I.

EDIT: Promises are one thing. Trust is a different thing. The issue here is whether these promises made by the Kiev government will be believed. Remember: there was an agreement signed between Yanu and his opponents. Two days later he's overthrown. Even though many East Ukrainians would admit (if pressed) that Yanu was an incompetent corrupt fool, nonetheless actions such as signing an agreement and then overthrowing the president two days later do not inspire trust in the democratic process.

There may be people here that are as stubborn or ideological, but I can guarantee you "we" are not as brainwashed as people that have only access to one source of information that is also blatantly utilizing the people for their cause.

Yanukovych also promised the people to sign the EU association treaty. He didn't.(admittedly because he was bullied out of it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine–European_Union_Association_Agreement#Russia) 100k people were so pissed about it that they went onto the streets. Revolutions happen and aren't bad per se.
nunez
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
Norway4003 Posts
May 17 2014 15:51 GMT
#10845
@mari
woohoo.
conspired against by a confederacy of dunces.
marigoldran
Profile Joined April 2014
219 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-17 15:56:08
May 17 2014 15:54 GMT
#10846
On May 18 2014 00:50 Nyxisto wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 18 2014 00:31 marigoldran wrote:
On May 18 2014 00:29 Nyxisto wrote:
On May 18 2014 00:19 Gorsameth wrote:
On May 18 2014 00:16 marigoldran wrote:
Well, neither side in the Ukraine crisis is particularly good at listening. When Yanu was in power he tried to crush the protesters, and now that the tables have turned East Ukrainians are fearful (and rightfully so) the West will return the favor.

Akhmetov is right. Both sides should settle down. Hopefully elect someone who is acceptable to the Russians, and then begin talks between everyone. If Ukraine wants to be a democracy, they better start learning how to talk to one another.

Ironically enough the Ukrainian army is doing such a bad job they're actually winning sympathy points.

Why is East Ukraine afraid of West Ukraine (before the separatists surfaced)? Elections were coming up and there had been no action by the interim government against any interests of the east.


Because they're watching brainwashed Russian state TV all day. As you're pointing out the interim government has not done anything that would justify armed riots.


I'm pretty confident after a generation of Soviet rule the Ukrainians would be cynical towards propaganda. They're about as brainwashed as you or I.

EDIT: Promises are one thing. Trust is a different thing. The issue here is whether these promises made by the Kiev government will be believed. Remember: there was an agreement signed between Yanu and his opponents. Two days later he's overthrown. Even though many East Ukrainians would admit (if pressed) that Yanu was an incompetent corrupt fool, nonetheless actions such as signing an agreement and then overthrowing the president two days later do not inspire trust in the democratic process.

There may be people here that are as stubborn or ideological, but I can guarantee you "we" are not as brainwashed as people that have only access to one source of information that is also blatantly utilizing the people for their cause.

Yanukovych also promised the people to sign the EU association treaty. He didn't.(admittedly because he was bullied out of it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine–European_Union_Association_Agreement#Russia) 100k people were so pissed about it that they went onto the streets. Revolutions happen and aren't bad per se.


They have the internet too, right? They also have access to European TV network too, right? Also, they'll be getting messages from their bosses, who in turn are getting messages from the oligarchs. They have their own (back-door) information networks too, especially after a generation of Soviet rule.

EDIT: Also, if one side is allowed to hold mass protests to overthrow the president, the other side is allowed to do so too, right? What goes around, comes around.
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
May 17 2014 15:55 GMT
#10847
On May 18 2014 00:31 marigoldran wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 18 2014 00:29 Nyxisto wrote:
On May 18 2014 00:19 Gorsameth wrote:
On May 18 2014 00:16 marigoldran wrote:
Well, neither side in the Ukraine crisis is particularly good at listening. When Yanu was in power he tried to crush the protesters, and now that the tables have turned East Ukrainians are fearful (and rightfully so) the West will return the favor.

Akhmetov is right. Both sides should settle down. Hopefully elect someone who is acceptable to the Russians, and then begin talks between everyone. If Ukraine wants to be a democracy, they better start learning how to talk to one another.

Ironically enough the Ukrainian army is doing such a bad job they're actually winning sympathy points.

Why is East Ukraine afraid of West Ukraine (before the separatists surfaced)? Elections were coming up and there had been no action by the interim government against any interests of the east.


Because they're watching brainwashed Russian state TV all day. As you're pointing out the interim government has not done anything that would justify armed riots.


I'm pretty confident after a generation of Soviet rule the Ukrainians would be cynical towards propaganda. They're about as brainwashed as you or I.

I don't know. A region furiously supported twice convicted criminal to be the President for 10 years... I mean we are all not perfect but that kind of stands out.
Mc
Profile Joined March 2010
332 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-17 15:58:57
May 17 2014 15:55 GMT
#10848
@nunez
You keep implying that it was an armed coup, or if nor armed that it was a coup forced by right wing nationalists. You have 0 evidence for that. I show you a clear argument that parliament turned on him in the wake of the massive killings of the preceding days.

Timeline:
Feb 18th/19th : violent clashes between Berkut and protestors. 20 or 30 people dead (including police officers).
Feb 20th : the whole sniper incident, Party of regions members start resigning en masse.
Feb 21st : Agreement on resolving the crisis with Yanukovych, Tymoszenko freed by parliament, etc., at least 28 members of Party of Regions resigned by now.
Feb 21st (evening) : Yanukovych flees
Feb 22nd : Parliament removes Yanukovych.

It seems clear that Yanukovych fled because parliament had turned its back on him and that he was removed from office because parliament turned his back on him.

I still don't see evidence that it was a coup by militant parts of maidan and that's just your unfounded conjecture. Seems much more likely that it was a decision by parliament in the wake of the tragic events and chaos of Feb 18th - Feb 20th. Parliament realized that the best way to move on as a country was without Yanukovych, even though they didn't have grounds upon which to remove him (yet) and thus decided to bypass the lengthy impeachment process.
5hh.gg
marigoldran
Profile Joined April 2014
219 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-17 15:58:32
May 17 2014 15:58 GMT
#10849
On May 18 2014 00:55 Cheerio wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 18 2014 00:31 marigoldran wrote:
On May 18 2014 00:29 Nyxisto wrote:
On May 18 2014 00:19 Gorsameth wrote:
On May 18 2014 00:16 marigoldran wrote:
Well, neither side in the Ukraine crisis is particularly good at listening. When Yanu was in power he tried to crush the protesters, and now that the tables have turned East Ukrainians are fearful (and rightfully so) the West will return the favor.

Akhmetov is right. Both sides should settle down. Hopefully elect someone who is acceptable to the Russians, and then begin talks between everyone. If Ukraine wants to be a democracy, they better start learning how to talk to one another.

Ironically enough the Ukrainian army is doing such a bad job they're actually winning sympathy points.

Why is East Ukraine afraid of West Ukraine (before the separatists surfaced)? Elections were coming up and there had been no action by the interim government against any interests of the east.


Because they're watching brainwashed Russian state TV all day. As you're pointing out the interim government has not done anything that would justify armed riots.


I'm pretty confident after a generation of Soviet rule the Ukrainians would be cynical towards propaganda. They're about as brainwashed as you or I.

I don't know. A region furiously supported twice convicted criminal to be the President for 10 years... I mean we are all not perfect but that kind of stands out.


"Furiously supported?" What evidence do you have of that?

I'll bet you money most East Ukranian citizens thought of Yanu as a corrupt fool. However, they thought of him as their corrupt fool, in contrast to the current Kiev government, which they see as someone else's corrupt fool.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-17 16:01:49
May 17 2014 15:58 GMT
#10850
On May 18 2014 00:54 marigoldran wrote:
EDIT: Also, if one side is allowed to hold mass protests to overthrow the president, the other side is allowed to do so too, right? What goes around, comes around.


Then they should go to Kiev and protest. The difference is we are talking about a few thousand armed people here that are occupying buildings taking hostages and claiming that they are a sovereign state. They don't even have a realistic agenda. Many people of Eastern Ukraine are unhappy with the government in Kiev , that is without a doubt. But also the majority of people does not want to be an independent country(or be a part of Russia), many polls have shown that. So what do these people want? The people of the Euromaidan protests had a clear goal and protested largely peacefully for it. The riots in Eastern Ukraine have no goal besides destabilizing the situation.
marigoldran
Profile Joined April 2014
219 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-17 16:02:58
May 17 2014 16:01 GMT
#10851
Much easier to protest in your own neighborhood. As far as they're concerned Kiev is like on the other side of the world.

I'm not going to argue with you about the separatists: their argument for "independence" has no leg to stand on and many of them are paid Russian shills. Still, they are an expression of popular discontent. Think of them as symptoms of a deeper problem here.
Cheerio
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Ukraine3178 Posts
May 17 2014 16:03 GMT
#10852
On May 18 2014 00:58 marigoldran wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 18 2014 00:55 Cheerio wrote:
On May 18 2014 00:31 marigoldran wrote:
On May 18 2014 00:29 Nyxisto wrote:
On May 18 2014 00:19 Gorsameth wrote:
On May 18 2014 00:16 marigoldran wrote:
Well, neither side in the Ukraine crisis is particularly good at listening. When Yanu was in power he tried to crush the protesters, and now that the tables have turned East Ukrainians are fearful (and rightfully so) the West will return the favor.

Akhmetov is right. Both sides should settle down. Hopefully elect someone who is acceptable to the Russians, and then begin talks between everyone. If Ukraine wants to be a democracy, they better start learning how to talk to one another.

Ironically enough the Ukrainian army is doing such a bad job they're actually winning sympathy points.

Why is East Ukraine afraid of West Ukraine (before the separatists surfaced)? Elections were coming up and there had been no action by the interim government against any interests of the east.


Because they're watching brainwashed Russian state TV all day. As you're pointing out the interim government has not done anything that would justify armed riots.


I'm pretty confident after a generation of Soviet rule the Ukrainians would be cynical towards propaganda. They're about as brainwashed as you or I.

I don't know. A region furiously supported twice convicted criminal to be the President for 10 years... I mean we are all not perfect but that kind of stands out.


"Furiously supported?" What evidence do you have of that?

I'll bet you money most East Ukranian citizens thought of Yanu as a corrupt fool. However, they thought of him as their corrupt fool, in contrast to the current Kiev government, which they see as someone else's corrupt fool.

ok, if that's in line with your standards of brainwashedness... i'm not arguing.
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
May 17 2014 16:05 GMT
#10853
Popular discontent? That might be true if the armed seperatists are locals and controlled by locals. As it is, it appears that they are not.
marigoldran
Profile Joined April 2014
219 Posts
May 17 2014 16:06 GMT
#10854
My point here is that Ukrainians are incompetent at trying to understand the other side. Both sides think "I'm right, and the other side is brainwashed." That leads to civil wars.
marigoldran
Profile Joined April 2014
219 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-17 16:13:07
May 17 2014 16:08 GMT
#10855
On May 18 2014 01:05 Dangermousecatdog wrote:
Popular discontent? That might be true if the armed seperatists are locals and controlled by locals. As it is, it appears that they are not.


You do realize Assad made the same argument in Syria and responded by shelling the rebellious towns?

There are GRU agents in Ukraine [edited]. But there are also a lot of pissed off locals too. Saying they're "brainwashed" and attacking them is a really good way of starting a civil war. Thankfully this probably won't happen in Ukraine because the army is so incompetent. As I've said before: the weakness of the Ukrainian state might be the reason it survives.
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
May 17 2014 16:13 GMT
#10856
Yes, I think that the only one who has to gain something from this is not the people of Eastern Ukraine, but Russia. It's so obvious that they're knee deep in this. Creating and/or provoking these kind of situations has been Russia's MO over the last two decades in almost any of their neighboring countries. The Ukraine went through a lot of turmoil over the last 20 years, but suddenly when the country seems to be moving towards the EU they're on the verge of a civil war? To use cold war terminology I think you need to be a useful idiot to not see that this is not happening on its own.
marigoldran
Profile Joined April 2014
219 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-17 16:19:24
May 17 2014 16:17 GMT
#10857
Annexing East Ukraine would be bad for both Russia and East Ukraine. Even the Russians are starting to realize this, given the very large costs of annexing Crimea.

For example, they're looking at the costs of paying the pensioners in Crimea right now, and thinking "shit. Now we have to pay for them. This region is an economic trash can."
Nyxisto
Profile Joined August 2010
Germany6287 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-17 16:27:16
May 17 2014 16:21 GMT
#10858
It's not about annexing East Ukraine, that would be too much even for Russian standards. It's about stopping the Ukraine from moving west and leaving them in a dysfunctional state. A broken neighbour country is better than a neighbour country that is siding with Russia's alleged enemies. They have made that clear repeatedly now. Also nobody is talking about Crimea anymore which is also nice I guess.

The unwillingness of Russia to accept that their sphere of influence is shrinking since the 90's and trying to get a grab on everyone that is moving away from them is what is fueling a lot of these conflicts that we have seen popping up since then. Chechnya, Moldova, Georgia .. to name a few.
marigoldran
Profile Joined April 2014
219 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-05-17 16:28:41
May 17 2014 16:25 GMT
#10859
If East Ukraine doesn't want to join the EU, you can't force them to do so. Allow federalization and give a generation or two to see which regions prosper and which regions don't.

One of the reasons Germany reunified relatively smoothly was because after a generation of Soviet rule most East Germans were like "yeah, we want to be part of Europe." The same could happen in East Ukraine but it would require time, and it can't be forced on them.

EDIT: In the long run, aggressive Russian behavior simply encourages countries to align themselves with Europe. If the Russians enjoy shooting themselves in the foot, let them do so.
zeo
Profile Joined October 2009
Serbia6284 Posts
May 17 2014 16:37 GMT
#10860
On May 18 2014 00:55 Cheerio wrote:
Show nested quote +
On May 18 2014 00:31 marigoldran wrote:
On May 18 2014 00:29 Nyxisto wrote:
On May 18 2014 00:19 Gorsameth wrote:
On May 18 2014 00:16 marigoldran wrote:
Well, neither side in the Ukraine crisis is particularly good at listening. When Yanu was in power he tried to crush the protesters, and now that the tables have turned East Ukrainians are fearful (and rightfully so) the West will return the favor.

Akhmetov is right. Both sides should settle down. Hopefully elect someone who is acceptable to the Russians, and then begin talks between everyone. If Ukraine wants to be a democracy, they better start learning how to talk to one another.

Ironically enough the Ukrainian army is doing such a bad job they're actually winning sympathy points.

Why is East Ukraine afraid of West Ukraine (before the separatists surfaced)? Elections were coming up and there had been no action by the interim government against any interests of the east.


Because they're watching brainwashed Russian state TV all day. As you're pointing out the interim government has not done anything that would justify armed riots.


I'm pretty confident after a generation of Soviet rule the Ukrainians would be cynical towards propaganda. They're about as brainwashed as you or I.

I don't know. A region furiously supported twice convicted criminal to be the President for 10 years... I mean we are all not perfect but that kind of stands out.

What?

Second round of presidential elections in Ukraine 1999, one side of Ukraine furiously supports Leonid Kuchma. Ukraine becomes paradise on Earth apparently.
[image loading]

Five years later one side furiously supports Yushchenko, after a revolution he comes to power and becomes the worst president in the history of Ukraine, leaving office with an approval rating of 3%
[image loading]
"If only Kircheis were here" - Everyone
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