EPTUkraine Crisis - Page 543
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marigoldran
219 Posts
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
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marigoldran
219 Posts
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On May 18 2014 00:31 marigoldran wrote: I'm pretty confident after a generation of Soviet rule the Ukrainians would be cynical towards propaganda. They're about as brainwashed as you or I. EDIT: Promises are one thing. Trust is a different thing. The issue here is whether these promises made by the Kiev government will be believed. Remember: there was an agreement signed between Yanu and his opponents. Two days later he's overthrown. Even though many East Ukrainians would admit (if pressed) that Yanu was an incompetent corrupt fool, nonetheless actions such as signing an agreement and then overthrowing the president two days later do not inspire trust in the democratic process. There may be people here that are as stubborn or ideological, but I can guarantee you "we" are not as brainwashed as people that have only access to one source of information that is also blatantly utilizing the people for their cause. Yanukovych also promised the people to sign the EU association treaty. He didn't.(admittedly because he was bullied out of it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine–European_Union_Association_Agreement#Russia) 100k people were so pissed about it that they went onto the streets. Revolutions happen and aren't bad per se. | ||
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nunez
Norway4003 Posts
woohoo. | ||
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marigoldran
219 Posts
On May 18 2014 00:50 Nyxisto wrote: There may be people here that are as stubborn or ideological, but I can guarantee you "we" are not as brainwashed as people that have only access to one source of information that is also blatantly utilizing the people for their cause. Yanukovych also promised the people to sign the EU association treaty. He didn't.(admittedly because he was bullied out of it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine–European_Union_Association_Agreement#Russia) 100k people were so pissed about it that they went onto the streets. Revolutions happen and aren't bad per se. They have the internet too, right? They also have access to European TV network too, right? Also, they'll be getting messages from their bosses, who in turn are getting messages from the oligarchs. They have their own (back-door) information networks too, especially after a generation of Soviet rule. EDIT: Also, if one side is allowed to hold mass protests to overthrow the president, the other side is allowed to do so too, right? What goes around, comes around. | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On May 18 2014 00:31 marigoldran wrote: I'm pretty confident after a generation of Soviet rule the Ukrainians would be cynical towards propaganda. They're about as brainwashed as you or I. I don't know. A region furiously supported twice convicted criminal to be the President for 10 years... I mean we are all not perfect but that kind of stands out. | ||
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Mc
332 Posts
You keep implying that it was an armed coup, or if nor armed that it was a coup forced by right wing nationalists. You have 0 evidence for that. I show you a clear argument that parliament turned on him in the wake of the massive killings of the preceding days. Timeline: Feb 18th/19th : violent clashes between Berkut and protestors. 20 or 30 people dead (including police officers). Feb 20th : the whole sniper incident, Party of regions members start resigning en masse. Feb 21st : Agreement on resolving the crisis with Yanukovych, Tymoszenko freed by parliament, etc., at least 28 members of Party of Regions resigned by now. Feb 21st (evening) : Yanukovych flees Feb 22nd : Parliament removes Yanukovych. It seems clear that Yanukovych fled because parliament had turned its back on him and that he was removed from office because parliament turned his back on him. I still don't see evidence that it was a coup by militant parts of maidan and that's just your unfounded conjecture. Seems much more likely that it was a decision by parliament in the wake of the tragic events and chaos of Feb 18th - Feb 20th. Parliament realized that the best way to move on as a country was without Yanukovych, even though they didn't have grounds upon which to remove him (yet) and thus decided to bypass the lengthy impeachment process. | ||
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marigoldran
219 Posts
On May 18 2014 00:55 Cheerio wrote: I don't know. A region furiously supported twice convicted criminal to be the President for 10 years... I mean we are all not perfect but that kind of stands out. "Furiously supported?" What evidence do you have of that? I'll bet you money most East Ukranian citizens thought of Yanu as a corrupt fool. However, they thought of him as their corrupt fool, in contrast to the current Kiev government, which they see as someone else's corrupt fool. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
On May 18 2014 00:54 marigoldran wrote: EDIT: Also, if one side is allowed to hold mass protests to overthrow the president, the other side is allowed to do so too, right? What goes around, comes around. Then they should go to Kiev and protest. The difference is we are talking about a few thousand armed people here that are occupying buildings taking hostages and claiming that they are a sovereign state. They don't even have a realistic agenda. Many people of Eastern Ukraine are unhappy with the government in Kiev , that is without a doubt. But also the majority of people does not want to be an independent country(or be a part of Russia), many polls have shown that. So what do these people want? The people of the Euromaidan protests had a clear goal and protested largely peacefully for it. The riots in Eastern Ukraine have no goal besides destabilizing the situation. | ||
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marigoldran
219 Posts
I'm not going to argue with you about the separatists: their argument for "independence" has no leg to stand on and many of them are paid Russian shills. Still, they are an expression of popular discontent. Think of them as symptoms of a deeper problem here. | ||
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Cheerio
Ukraine3178 Posts
On May 18 2014 00:58 marigoldran wrote: "Furiously supported?" What evidence do you have of that? I'll bet you money most East Ukranian citizens thought of Yanu as a corrupt fool. However, they thought of him as their corrupt fool, in contrast to the current Kiev government, which they see as someone else's corrupt fool. ok, if that's in line with your standards of brainwashedness... i'm not arguing. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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marigoldran
219 Posts
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marigoldran
219 Posts
On May 18 2014 01:05 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Popular discontent? That might be true if the armed seperatists are locals and controlled by locals. As it is, it appears that they are not. You do realize Assad made the same argument in Syria and responded by shelling the rebellious towns? There are GRU agents in Ukraine [edited]. But there are also a lot of pissed off locals too. Saying they're "brainwashed" and attacking them is a really good way of starting a civil war. Thankfully this probably won't happen in Ukraine because the army is so incompetent. As I've said before: the weakness of the Ukrainian state might be the reason it survives. | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
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marigoldran
219 Posts
For example, they're looking at the costs of paying the pensioners in Crimea right now, and thinking "shit. Now we have to pay for them. This region is an economic trash can." | ||
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Nyxisto
Germany6287 Posts
The unwillingness of Russia to accept that their sphere of influence is shrinking since the 90's and trying to get a grab on everyone that is moving away from them is what is fueling a lot of these conflicts that we have seen popping up since then. Chechnya, Moldova, Georgia .. to name a few. | ||
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marigoldran
219 Posts
One of the reasons Germany reunified relatively smoothly was because after a generation of Soviet rule most East Germans were like "yeah, we want to be part of Europe." The same could happen in East Ukraine but it would require time, and it can't be forced on them. EDIT: In the long run, aggressive Russian behavior simply encourages countries to align themselves with Europe. If the Russians enjoy shooting themselves in the foot, let them do so. | ||
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zeo
Serbia6336 Posts
On May 18 2014 00:55 Cheerio wrote: I don't know. A region furiously supported twice convicted criminal to be the President for 10 years... I mean we are all not perfect but that kind of stands out. What? Second round of presidential elections in Ukraine 1999, one side of Ukraine furiously supports Leonid Kuchma. Ukraine becomes paradise on Earth apparently. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/nzG2Imm.gif) Five years later one side furiously supports Yushchenko, after a revolution he comes to power and becomes the worst president in the history of Ukraine, leaving office with an approval rating of 3% ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/l4NlXhd.png) | ||
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