On March 05 2014 06:18 DeepElemBlues wrote: Actually believing in your lies makes for the best lies because they're not really lies if you really really believe them.
But makes for worst liars, since they lie to themselves and that's not the aim of a liar, is it? Either way, we are offtopic.
An insight into the thinking is given by Sergei Markov, a Kremlin-connected analyst and politician, who is in Crimea meeting with local officials. When asked for his view on the Kiev protests, he said: "The plan it seems to me to was very clear. Give Ukraine a Mikheil Saakashvili type leader. Start a big anti-Russian campaign, train the army to Nato standards, fill everyone with anti-Russian ideology, and then throw the Ukrainian army into Russia at a time when a coup is being organised. I haven't spoken to Putin about it personally, but I am certain he thinks the same."
You gotta give credit to the Russians, they say bullshit with the best straight face of anyone.
An insight into the thinking is given by Sergei Markov, a Kremlin-connected analyst and politician, who is in Crimea meeting with local officials. When asked for his view on the Kiev protests, he said: "The plan it seems to me to was very clear. Give Ukraine a Mikheil Saakashvili type leader. Start a big anti-Russian campaign, train the army to Nato standards, fill everyone with anti-Russian ideology, and then throw the Ukrainian army into Russia at a time when a coup is being organised. I haven't spoken to Putin about it personally, but I am certain he thinks the same."
You gotta give credit to the Russians, they say bullshit with the best straight face of anyone.
Having represented a number of people from different cultures, I feel like Russians are the best liars.
Nah, Russians are the worst liars there are. They actually believe in BS they tell most of the time. Like mine position on everyone lying.
Probably a large number. If you think about a fact like this: "Polls conducted in 2010 suggested that at least one quarter of adult Americans said that they doubted Obama's U.S. birth,while a May 2011 Gallup poll found that 13% of American adults (23% of Republicans) continued to express such doubts." in a country like America where access to free media is much broader than in Russia. Why wouldnt you be surprised to find a large number of Russians who for the last 3 months have all news announce that fascist-nazis are taking over power to believe it.
Without wanting to sound arrogant, I think the US are on a different level than most countries in that regard as well, even if it's for different reasons than in Russia.
An insight into the thinking is given by Sergei Markov, a Kremlin-connected analyst and politician, who is in Crimea meeting with local officials. When asked for his view on the Kiev protests, he said: "The plan it seems to me to was very clear. Give Ukraine a Mikheil Saakashvili type leader. Start a big anti-Russian campaign, train the army to Nato standards, fill everyone with anti-Russian ideology, and then throw the Ukrainian army into Russia at a time when a coup is being organised. I haven't spoken to Putin about it personally, but I am certain he thinks the same."
You gotta give credit to the Russians, they say bullshit with the best straight face of anyone.
An insight into the thinking is given by Sergei Markov, a Kremlin-connected analyst and politician, who is in Crimea meeting with local officials. When asked for his view on the Kiev protests, he said: "The plan it seems to me to was very clear. Give Ukraine a Mikheil Saakashvili type leader. Start a big anti-Russian campaign, train the army to Nato standards, fill everyone with anti-Russian ideology, and then throw the Ukrainian army into Russia at a time when a coup is being organised. I haven't spoken to Putin about it personally, but I am certain he thinks the same."
You gotta give credit to the Russians, they say bullshit with the best straight face of anyone.
Having represented a number of people from different cultures, I feel like Russians are the best liars.
Nah, Russians are the worst liars there are. They actually believe in BS they tell most of the time. Like mine position on everyone lying.
Probably a large number. If you think about a fact like this: "Polls conducted in 2010 suggested that at least one quarter of adult Americans said that they doubted Obama's U.S. birth,while a May 2011 Gallup poll found that 13% of American adults (23% of Republicans) continued to express such doubts." in a country like America where access to free media is much broader than in Russia. Why wouldnt you be surprised to find a large number of Russians who for the last 3 months have all news announce that fascist-nazis are taking over power to believe it.
/ ...Any worthwhile human being usually does not take part in such ridiculous polls, that are asked in ways to induce bias. Aka the people who bothered to even take the polls represent a miniscule population of those who actually care/know about the situation. Maybe 2000-3000 ppl of 313-314 million. Whee. That being said, I hope this situation can be resolved peacefully.
An insight into the thinking is given by Sergei Markov, a Kremlin-connected analyst and politician, who is in Crimea meeting with local officials. When asked for his view on the Kiev protests, he said: "The plan it seems to me to was very clear. Give Ukraine a Mikheil Saakashvili type leader. Start a big anti-Russian campaign, train the army to Nato standards, fill everyone with anti-Russian ideology, and then throw the Ukrainian army into Russia at a time when a coup is being organised. I haven't spoken to Putin about it personally, but I am certain he thinks the same."
You gotta give credit to the Russians, they say bullshit with the best straight face of anyone.
An insight into the thinking is given by Sergei Markov, a Kremlin-connected analyst and politician, who is in Crimea meeting with local officials. When asked for his view on the Kiev protests, he said: "The plan it seems to me to was very clear. Give Ukraine a Mikheil Saakashvili type leader. Start a big anti-Russian campaign, train the army to Nato standards, fill everyone with anti-Russian ideology, and then throw the Ukrainian army into Russia at a time when a coup is being organised. I haven't spoken to Putin about it personally, but I am certain he thinks the same."
You gotta give credit to the Russians, they say bullshit with the best straight face of anyone.
Having represented a number of people from different cultures, I feel like Russians are the best liars.
Nah, Russians are the worst liars there are. They actually believe in BS they tell most of the time. Like mine position on everyone lying.
Probably a large number. If you think about a fact like this: "Polls conducted in 2010 suggested that at least one quarter of adult Americans said that they doubted Obama's U.S. birth,while a May 2011 Gallup poll found that 13% of American adults (23% of Republicans) continued to express such doubts." in a country like America where access to free media is much broader than in Russia. Why wouldnt you be surprised to find a large number of Russians who for the last 3 months have all news announce that fascist-nazis are taking over power to believe it.
Without wanting to sound arrogant, I think the US is on a different level than most countries in that regard as well, even if it's for different reasons than in Russia.
there are no radical beliefs held by a large minority of Germans? Maybe about Muslims ?
Achieve something? What, a return to the status que but with the Crimea having been annexed from the Ukraine?
The West's been trying for decades to include Russia in the decision making processes, making them members of the G8, the WTO and numerous other bilateral agreements between European countries.
The concept that Russia could be more easily dealt with by being inclusive with them has been a myth, It has achieved nothing. Russia is as authoritarian and belligerent has it has ever been. We give them an inch and they take a mile. They still brutally murdered Alexander Litvenko in London, they still launched cyber attacks on Estonian in 2007, they still actively fund and arm the Syrian state and are still blatantly willing to enter any neighbors borders with military force.
West should revert to treating Russia exactly the same way it treated Russia in the 1980's, which actually did work. There a rival, not a partner
Russia has its own interests, that WOULD align much better with interests of the EU, but only IF EU would actually open up to the idea of cooperating with its eastern neighbours more. To write off Russia as a 'rival' is pretty retarded; this isn't a game of Starcraft, there are no victory conditions to be achieved by fighting between countries, be it through military or economic means.
Naive.
What is retarded is cuddling up to a dictator and thinking they share your interests at heart. Putin does view us as rivals. That is all that matters.
Nobody thinks he shares our interests, but Putin is not immortal and by allowing prosperous Russia, maybe one day they will actually become a democracy. While playing childish geopolitical games will achieve absolutely nothing on that front and leave Russia perpetually a powder keg. Many Russians will view that exactly as Putin's propaganda would put it, as imperialist West doing everything to keep them down. How that panned out in Germany after first world war ?
If it acts like the Soviet Union, behaves diplomatically like the Soviet Union and wants to actively reclaim the landmass of the Soviet Union then it should be treated exactly like the Soviet Union.
Don't be silly. Comparing Russia to the USSR would be like comparing modern Germany to the Germany from 1930s. People have extreme difficulty getting over the cold war.
Why did Russian Special Forces have to surround Ukrainian Army in Crimea -- made up of Russian speakers -- to prevent the genocide of Russian race you and Putin claim was happening if the Ukrianian Army in Crimea wasnt accepting orders from Nazi-Fascist junta in Kiev ?
Man, if only you got 10 cents every time you spammed a rant about nazi's you would have many cents.
You called them Nazis, you photshopped Hitler on Maidain, you claimed Ukrainian Army isnt listening to Fascist Junta in Kiev, you claimed that racial extermination is part of the Ukrainian juntas program, you claimed that invasion of Crimea was to prevent genocide. So link it all together for me: If the Ukrainian Army isnt listening to the Kiev govenrment why did Russian special forces surround and threaten Ukrainan Army units -- units full of Crimea Russians, as the Ukrainian Army draws its soldier pools from the regions the units are based in -- and demanded they disarm?
I called the people wearing nazi uniforms nazi's, Ukraine for Ukrainian's is a racial extermination plan by a part of the junta government which has so far been calling most of the shots.
Here is your commentary earlier:
But the people leading the junta right now are animals.
The junta controlling Kiev, moments after coming to power automatically started restricting human rights, taking away rights and restricting freedom of speech. Not only this, they pushed for a purge of everything to do with the history of Ukraine they deem undesirable, a kind of book burning, to destroy the culture of the Ukrainians that fought Ukrainian fascism.
you don't want to live in the part of the country the neonazi's take over
Agreed, everything that is happening in the Ukraine right now is solely the fault of EuroMaidan and the junta that came to power because of it.
When it became clear that the Nazi-colaborator wannabe's had taken over maidan the only logical course to take would be anti-maidan. Simple.
They are a cancer and Russia sending troops into Crimea is what happens when you come to power on the backs of fascists, the people of Ukraine wont stand for it.
Since coming to power the junta has done nothing but openly humiliate the officials and servicemen, even demonize them. They can expect no proper help from the police or army.
If the junta starts murdering people that don't share their ultra-nationalist views it is the responsibility of Russia and the EU to intervene and give the power back to the people.
There is no invasion of Crimea, it is a peacekeeping force.
If one side doesnt fight back when its being invaded doesnt make it less of an invasion.
Self defense units disarmed the military
lol.
in Crimea because having armed troops that could at any time be threatened or forced to engage by the junta in Kiev would be retarded.
You said that a
A tank could go from Russia all the way to Kiev in a straight line and fire on parliament and no one would lift a finger. There is a reason why the army of Ukraine hasn't left their barracks or done anything to prepare for a Russian 'invasion'
So why are Russian special forces threatening Ukrainian Troops?
I'm not sure how taking random quotes out of context proves whatever point you are making. People seem to think I am taking a pro-Russian stance when the only thing I am doing is being anti-junta. Yes of course I stand by what I said earlier, what is happening now in Ukraine is the direct result of Yanukovych stupidly going through with the agreement expecting the rioters in the street to uphold their end of the deal.
People are letting petty cold war propaganda and pathetic stereotypes cloud their judgment. Violent overthrow and hostile takeover of government was the worst thing that could have happened. It was clear from the start that democracy was the last thing on their minds while dealing with their political opponents first.
Having elections so soon after such polarizing events is stupid, what serious political program can you put forth in these conditions? Everyone knows things like economy or everyday life problems will take a back seat. The reason the orange revolution failed was because people were voted into power based on how much they dislike Russia or love the EU, instead of what they will really do once they get that power. Instead of deescalation and cool heads voting we get this, which is exactly why the moment they (the junta) got power they started provoking the east of the country.
Just like Putin, you've lost it. Your understanding of the events is so out of touch with reality it's fascinating. You either read to much propaganda or just too biased to develop any understanding of the events that might be in contradiction to the conclusions you've already made. But you are quite good at rationalizing the current events to make them fit into your worldview, I should give you that. Chopping off unfitting facts or twisting them beyond recognition to fit into the bigger picture. The problem is that you are unable to change your worldview one bit.
Thats not true. He changed his view already. The junta went from being totally Nazi to just elements of fascism and it went from planned extermination of Russians to provocations of the East. He even implicitly admits that the rushed 'Crimean independence referendum' set by Putin's quisling for March 20th is way too soon.
An insight into the thinking is given by Sergei Markov, a Kremlin-connected analyst and politician, who is in Crimea meeting with local officials. When asked for his view on the Kiev protests, he said: "The plan it seems to me to was very clear. Give Ukraine a Mikheil Saakashvili type leader. Start a big anti-Russian campaign, train the army to Nato standards, fill everyone with anti-Russian ideology, and then throw the Ukrainian army into Russia at a time when a coup is being organised. I haven't spoken to Putin about it personally, but I am certain he thinks the same."
You gotta give credit to the Russians, they say bullshit with the best straight face of anyone.
An insight into the thinking is given by Sergei Markov, a Kremlin-connected analyst and politician, who is in Crimea meeting with local officials. When asked for his view on the Kiev protests, he said: "The plan it seems to me to was very clear. Give Ukraine a Mikheil Saakashvili type leader. Start a big anti-Russian campaign, train the army to Nato standards, fill everyone with anti-Russian ideology, and then throw the Ukrainian army into Russia at a time when a coup is being organised. I haven't spoken to Putin about it personally, but I am certain he thinks the same."
You gotta give credit to the Russians, they say bullshit with the best straight face of anyone.
Having represented a number of people from different cultures, I feel like Russians are the best liars.
Nah, Russians are the worst liars there are. They actually believe in BS they tell most of the time. Like mine position on everyone lying.
Probably a large number. If you think about a fact like this: "Polls conducted in 2010 suggested that at least one quarter of adult Americans said that they doubted Obama's U.S. birth,while a May 2011 Gallup poll found that 13% of American adults (23% of Republicans) continued to express such doubts." in a country like America where access to free media is much broader than in Russia. Why wouldnt you be surprised to find a large number of Russians who for the last 3 months have all news announce that fascist-nazis are taking over power to believe it.
Without wanting to sound arrogant, I think the US is on a different level than most countries in that regard as well, even if it's for different reasons than in Russia.
there are no radical beliefs held by a large minority of Germans? Maybe about Muslims ?
At home, this intervention looks to be one of the most unpopular decisions Putin has ever made. The Kremlin’s own pollster released a survey on Monday that showed 73% of Russians reject it. In phrasing its question posed in early February to 1,600 respondents across the country, the state-funded sociologists at WCIOM were clearly trying to get as much support for the intervention as possible: “Should Russia react to the overthrow of the legally elected authorities in Ukraine?” they asked. Only 15% said yes — hardly a national consensus. Source.
A falsehood is still falsehood no matter whether propagator beleive it or not. When you post false news, or photoshop images or call real events a fake simulation, only to be revealed as untrue or deceitful, then it is no suprise those persons or institution will have lost some credibility. Events can be interpreted and analysed with differing perspective, but reality does not change accordingly.
Achieve something? What, a return to the status que but with the Crimea having been annexed from the Ukraine?
The West's been trying for decades to include Russia in the decision making processes, making them members of the G8, the WTO and numerous other bilateral agreements between European countries.
The concept that Russia could be more easily dealt with by being inclusive with them has been a myth, It has achieved nothing. Russia is as authoritarian and belligerent has it has ever been. We give them an inch and they take a mile. They still brutally murdered Alexander Litvenko in London, they still launched cyber attacks on Estonian in 2007, they still actively fund and arm the Syrian state and are still blatantly willing to enter any neighbors borders with military force.
West should revert to treating Russia exactly the same way it treated Russia in the 1980's, which actually did work. There a rival, not a partner
Russia has its own interests, that WOULD align much better with interests of the EU, but only IF EU would actually open up to the idea of cooperating with its eastern neighbours more. To write off Russia as a 'rival' is pretty retarded; this isn't a game of Starcraft, there are no victory conditions to be achieved by fighting between countries, be it through military or economic means.
Naive.
What is retarded is cuddling up to a dictator and thinking they share your interests at heart. Putin does view us as rivals. That is all that matters.
Nobody thinks he shares our interests, but Putin is not immortal and by allowing prosperous Russia, maybe one day they will actually become a democracy. While playing childish geopolitical games will achieve absolutely nothing on that front and leave Russia perpetually a powder keg. Many Russians will view that exactly as Putin's propaganda would put it, as imperialist West doing everything to keep them down. How that panned out in Germany after first world war ?
If it acts like the Soviet Union, behaves diplomatically like the Soviet Union and wants to actively reclaim the landmass of the Soviet Union then it should be treated exactly like the Soviet Union.
Don't be silly. Comparing Russia to the USSR would be like comparing modern Germany to the Germany from 1930s. People have extreme difficulty getting over the cold war.
Why did Russian Special Forces have to surround Ukrainian Army in Crimea -- made up of Russian speakers -- to prevent the genocide of Russian race you and Putin claim was happening if the Ukrianian Army in Crimea wasnt accepting orders from Nazi-Fascist junta in Kiev ?
Man, if only you got 10 cents every time you spammed a rant about nazi's you would have many cents.
You called them Nazis, you photshopped Hitler on Maidain, you claimed Ukrainian Army isnt listening to Fascist Junta in Kiev, you claimed that racial extermination is part of the Ukrainian juntas program, you claimed that invasion of Crimea was to prevent genocide. So link it all together for me: If the Ukrainian Army isnt listening to the Kiev govenrment why did Russian special forces surround and threaten Ukrainan Army units -- units full of Crimea Russians, as the Ukrainian Army draws its soldier pools from the regions the units are based in -- and demanded they disarm?
I called the people wearing nazi uniforms nazi's, Ukraine for Ukrainian's is a racial extermination plan by a part of the junta government which has so far been calling most of the shots.
Here is your commentary earlier:
But the people leading the junta right now are animals.
The junta controlling Kiev, moments after coming to power automatically started restricting human rights, taking away rights and restricting freedom of speech. Not only this, they pushed for a purge of everything to do with the history of Ukraine they deem undesirable, a kind of book burning, to destroy the culture of the Ukrainians that fought Ukrainian fascism.
you don't want to live in the part of the country the neonazi's take over
Agreed, everything that is happening in the Ukraine right now is solely the fault of EuroMaidan and the junta that came to power because of it.
When it became clear that the Nazi-colaborator wannabe's had taken over maidan the only logical course to take would be anti-maidan. Simple.
They are a cancer and Russia sending troops into Crimea is what happens when you come to power on the backs of fascists, the people of Ukraine wont stand for it.
Since coming to power the junta has done nothing but openly humiliate the officials and servicemen, even demonize them. They can expect no proper help from the police or army.
If the junta starts murdering people that don't share their ultra-nationalist views it is the responsibility of Russia and the EU to intervene and give the power back to the people.
There is no invasion of Crimea, it is a peacekeeping force.
If one side doesnt fight back when its being invaded doesnt make it less of an invasion.
Self defense units disarmed the military
lol.
in Crimea because having armed troops that could at any time be threatened or forced to engage by the junta in Kiev would be retarded.
You said that a
A tank could go from Russia all the way to Kiev in a straight line and fire on parliament and no one would lift a finger. There is a reason why the army of Ukraine hasn't left their barracks or done anything to prepare for a Russian 'invasion'
So why are Russian special forces threatening Ukrainian Troops?
I'm not sure how taking random quotes out of context proves whatever point you are making. People seem to think I am taking a pro-Russian stance when the only thing I am doing is being anti-junta. Yes of course I stand by what I said earlier, what is happening now in Ukraine is the direct result of Yanukovych stupidly going through with the agreement expecting the rioters in the street to uphold their end of the deal.
People are letting petty cold war propaganda and pathetic stereotypes cloud their judgment. Violent overthrow and hostile takeover of government was the worst thing that could have happened. It was clear from the start that democracy was the last thing on their minds while dealing with their political opponents first.
Having elections so soon after such polarizing events is stupid, what serious political program can you put forth in these conditions? Everyone knows things like economy or everyday life problems will take a back seat. The reason the orange revolution failed was because people were voted into power based on how much they dislike Russia or love the EU, instead of what they will really do once they get that power. Instead of deescalation and cool heads voting we get this, which is exactly why the moment they (the junta) got power they started provoking the east of the country.
Just like Putin, you've lost it. Your understanding of the events is so out of touch with reality it's fascinating. You either read to much propaganda or just too biased to develop any understanding of the events that might be in contradiction to the conclusions you've already made. But you are quite good at rationalizing the current events to make them fit into your worldview, I should give you that. Chopping off unfitting facts or twisting them beyond recognition to fit into the bigger picture. The problem is that you are unable to change your worldview one bit.
Thats not true. He changed his view already. The junta went from being totally Nazi to just elements of fascism and it went from planned extermination of Russians to provocations of the East. He even implicitly admits that the rushed 'Crimean independence referendum' set by Putin's quisling for March 20th is way too soon.
Please quote where I said they were 'totaly 100% all nazi's'. Stop misrepresenting what I have said. In fact I do belive the Crimean referendum date is too soon, just like its too soon for general elections.
Achieve something? What, a return to the status que but with the Crimea having been annexed from the Ukraine?
The West's been trying for decades to include Russia in the decision making processes, making them members of the G8, the WTO and numerous other bilateral agreements between European countries.
The concept that Russia could be more easily dealt with by being inclusive with them has been a myth, It has achieved nothing. Russia is as authoritarian and belligerent has it has ever been. We give them an inch and they take a mile. They still brutally murdered Alexander Litvenko in London, they still launched cyber attacks on Estonian in 2007, they still actively fund and arm the Syrian state and are still blatantly willing to enter any neighbors borders with military force.
West should revert to treating Russia exactly the same way it treated Russia in the 1980's, which actually did work. There a rival, not a partner
Russia has its own interests, that WOULD align much better with interests of the EU, but only IF EU would actually open up to the idea of cooperating with its eastern neighbours more. To write off Russia as a 'rival' is pretty retarded; this isn't a game of Starcraft, there are no victory conditions to be achieved by fighting between countries, be it through military or economic means.
Naive.
What is retarded is cuddling up to a dictator and thinking they share your interests at heart. Putin does view us as rivals. That is all that matters.
Nobody thinks he shares our interests, but Putin is not immortal and by allowing prosperous Russia, maybe one day they will actually become a democracy. While playing childish geopolitical games will achieve absolutely nothing on that front and leave Russia perpetually a powder keg. Many Russians will view that exactly as Putin's propaganda would put it, as imperialist West doing everything to keep them down. How that panned out in Germany after first world war ?
If it acts like the Soviet Union, behaves diplomatically like the Soviet Union and wants to actively reclaim the landmass of the Soviet Union then it should be treated exactly like the Soviet Union.
Don't be silly. Comparing Russia to the USSR would be like comparing modern Germany to the Germany from 1930s. People have extreme difficulty getting over the cold war.
Why did Russian Special Forces have to surround Ukrainian Army in Crimea -- made up of Russian speakers -- to prevent the genocide of Russian race you and Putin claim was happening if the Ukrianian Army in Crimea wasnt accepting orders from Nazi-Fascist junta in Kiev ?
Man, if only you got 10 cents every time you spammed a rant about nazi's you would have many cents.
You called them Nazis, you photshopped Hitler on Maidain, you claimed Ukrainian Army isnt listening to Fascist Junta in Kiev, you claimed that racial extermination is part of the Ukrainian juntas program, you claimed that invasion of Crimea was to prevent genocide. So link it all together for me: If the Ukrainian Army isnt listening to the Kiev govenrment why did Russian special forces surround and threaten Ukrainan Army units -- units full of Crimea Russians, as the Ukrainian Army draws its soldier pools from the regions the units are based in -- and demanded they disarm?
I called the people wearing nazi uniforms nazi's, Ukraine for Ukrainian's is a racial extermination plan by a part of the junta government which has so far been calling most of the shots.
Here is your commentary earlier:
But the people leading the junta right now are animals.
The junta controlling Kiev, moments after coming to power automatically started restricting human rights, taking away rights and restricting freedom of speech. Not only this, they pushed for a purge of everything to do with the history of Ukraine they deem undesirable, a kind of book burning, to destroy the culture of the Ukrainians that fought Ukrainian fascism.
you don't want to live in the part of the country the neonazi's take over
Agreed, everything that is happening in the Ukraine right now is solely the fault of EuroMaidan and the junta that came to power because of it.
When it became clear that the Nazi-colaborator wannabe's had taken over maidan the only logical course to take would be anti-maidan. Simple.
They are a cancer and Russia sending troops into Crimea is what happens when you come to power on the backs of fascists, the people of Ukraine wont stand for it.
Since coming to power the junta has done nothing but openly humiliate the officials and servicemen, even demonize them. They can expect no proper help from the police or army.
If the junta starts murdering people that don't share their ultra-nationalist views it is the responsibility of Russia and the EU to intervene and give the power back to the people.
There is no invasion of Crimea, it is a peacekeeping force.
If one side doesnt fight back when its being invaded doesnt make it less of an invasion.
Self defense units disarmed the military
lol.
in Crimea because having armed troops that could at any time be threatened or forced to engage by the junta in Kiev would be retarded.
You said that a
A tank could go from Russia all the way to Kiev in a straight line and fire on parliament and no one would lift a finger. There is a reason why the army of Ukraine hasn't left their barracks or done anything to prepare for a Russian 'invasion'
So why are Russian special forces threatening Ukrainian Troops?
I'm not sure how taking random quotes out of context proves whatever point you are making. People seem to think I am taking a pro-Russian stance when the only thing I am doing is being anti-junta. Yes of course I stand by what I said earlier, what is happening now in Ukraine is the direct result of Yanukovych stupidly going through with the agreement expecting the rioters in the street to uphold their end of the deal.
People are letting petty cold war propaganda and pathetic stereotypes cloud their judgment. Violent overthrow and hostile takeover of government was the worst thing that could have happened. It was clear from the start that democracy was the last thing on their minds while dealing with their political opponents first.
Having elections so soon after such polarizing events is stupid, what serious political program can you put forth in these conditions? Everyone knows things like economy or everyday life problems will take a back seat. The reason the orange revolution failed was because people were voted into power based on how much they dislike Russia or love the EU, instead of what they will really do once they get that power. Instead of deescalation and cool heads voting we get this, which is exactly why the moment they (the junta) got power they started provoking the east of the country.
Just like Putin, you've lost it. Your understanding of the events is so out of touch with reality it's fascinating. You either read to much propaganda or just too biased to develop any understanding of the events that might be in contradiction to the conclusions you've already made. But you are quite good at rationalizing the current events to make them fit into your worldview, I should give you that. Chopping off unfitting facts or twisting them beyond recognition to fit into the bigger picture. The problem is that you are unable to change your worldview one bit.
Thats not true. He changed his view already. The junta went from being totally Nazi to just elements of fascism and it went from planned extermination of Russians to provocations of the East. He even implicitly admits that the rushed 'Crimean independence referendum' set by Putin's quisling for March 20th is way too soon.
Please quote where I said they were 'totaly 100% all nazi's'. Stop misrepresenting what I have said. In fact I do belive the Crimean referendum date is too soon, just like its too soon for general elections.
On February 22 2014 17:21 zeo wrote:
Are you seriously suggesting anyone would want to live in a country run by Banderovci? It's not the people in east Ukraine's fault Ukraine had a weak leader who made concession after concession to a bunch of idiots who don't even control the riots. Right now self defense forces are being set up in Odessa, Sevastopol and other cities so they can protect themselves from the ethnic cleansing that comes next if Yanukovych falls, and they have every right to do so.
On February 27 2014 18:43 zeo wrote:
If the junta starts murdering people that don't share their ultra-nationalist views it is the responsibility of Russia and the EU to intervene and give the power back to the people. The 150k soldiers on the border keep the junta in check.
I am too lazy to find the one where you photoshopped Hitler onto Maidan, were caught, and then explained it away as Bandera being worse than Hitler. So you are right, and I apologize, you didnt say Nazi. Someone exactly like Nazis, but worse.
An insight into the thinking is given by Sergei Markov, a Kremlin-connected analyst and politician, who is in Crimea meeting with local officials. When asked for his view on the Kiev protests, he said: "The plan it seems to me to was very clear. Give Ukraine a Mikheil Saakashvili type leader. Start a big anti-Russian campaign, train the army to Nato standards, fill everyone with anti-Russian ideology, and then throw the Ukrainian army into Russia at a time when a coup is being organised. I haven't spoken to Putin about it personally, but I am certain he thinks the same."
You gotta give credit to the Russians, they say bullshit with the best straight face of anyone.
An insight into the thinking is given by Sergei Markov, a Kremlin-connected analyst and politician, who is in Crimea meeting with local officials. When asked for his view on the Kiev protests, he said: "The plan it seems to me to was very clear. Give Ukraine a Mikheil Saakashvili type leader. Start a big anti-Russian campaign, train the army to Nato standards, fill everyone with anti-Russian ideology, and then throw the Ukrainian army into Russia at a time when a coup is being organised. I haven't spoken to Putin about it personally, but I am certain he thinks the same."
You gotta give credit to the Russians, they say bullshit with the best straight face of anyone.
Having represented a number of people from different cultures, I feel like Russians are the best liars.
Nah, Russians are the worst liars there are. They actually believe in BS they tell most of the time. Like mine position on everyone lying.
Probably a large number. If you think about a fact like this: "Polls conducted in 2010 suggested that at least one quarter of adult Americans said that they doubted Obama's U.S. birth,while a May 2011 Gallup poll found that 13% of American adults (23% of Republicans) continued to express such doubts." in a country like America where access to free media is much broader than in Russia. Why wouldnt you be surprised to find a large number of Russians who for the last 3 months have all news announce that fascist-nazis are taking over power to believe it.
Without wanting to sound arrogant, I think the US is on a different level than most countries in that regard as well, even if it's for different reasons than in Russia.
there are no radical beliefs held by a large minority of Germans? Maybe about Muslims ?
Actually I was talking about politics and media actively contributing to giving people ridiculously stupid opinions, I blame the fact that america only has 2 parties for that, which are so deep in the trenches that they can't even work together after the elections are over (and FOX news ). Not sure how you came to the whole radical believes thing, since the conversation was about liars first and then stupid opinons like the one you mentioned here:
"Polls conducted in 2010 suggested that at least one quarter of adult Americans said that they doubted Obama's U.S. birth,while a May 2011 Gallup poll found that 13% of American adults (23% of Republicans) continued to express such doubts."
An insight into the thinking is given by Sergei Markov, a Kremlin-connected analyst and politician, who is in Crimea meeting with local officials. When asked for his view on the Kiev protests, he said: "The plan it seems to me to was very clear. Give Ukraine a Mikheil Saakashvili type leader. Start a big anti-Russian campaign, train the army to Nato standards, fill everyone with anti-Russian ideology, and then throw the Ukrainian army into Russia at a time when a coup is being organised. I haven't spoken to Putin about it personally, but I am certain he thinks the same."
You gotta give credit to the Russians, they say bullshit with the best straight face of anyone.
An insight into the thinking is given by Sergei Markov, a Kremlin-connected analyst and politician, who is in Crimea meeting with local officials. When asked for his view on the Kiev protests, he said: "The plan it seems to me to was very clear. Give Ukraine a Mikheil Saakashvili type leader. Start a big anti-Russian campaign, train the army to Nato standards, fill everyone with anti-Russian ideology, and then throw the Ukrainian army into Russia at a time when a coup is being organised. I haven't spoken to Putin about it personally, but I am certain he thinks the same."
You gotta give credit to the Russians, they say bullshit with the best straight face of anyone.
Having represented a number of people from different cultures, I feel like Russians are the best liars.
Nah, Russians are the worst liars there are. They actually believe in BS they tell most of the time. Like mine position on everyone lying.
Probably a large number. If you think about a fact like this: "Polls conducted in 2010 suggested that at least one quarter of adult Americans said that they doubted Obama's U.S. birth,while a May 2011 Gallup poll found that 13% of American adults (23% of Republicans) continued to express such doubts." in a country like America where access to free media is much broader than in Russia. Why wouldnt you be surprised to find a large number of Russians who for the last 3 months have all news announce that fascist-nazis are taking over power to believe it.
Without wanting to sound arrogant, I think the US is on a different level than most countries in that regard as well, even if it's for different reasons than in Russia.
there are no radical beliefs held by a large minority of Germans? Maybe about Muslims ?
He was talking about a large minority, not a majority. And the post is kinda silly, isn't it? Show me one western country where the majority of people wouldn't have opinions like these (especially if you ask the questions in the right way)
The research shows that more than half of the German population believes that Islam is prone to violence (64%); has a tendency toward revenge and retaliation (60%); is obsessed with proselytizing others (56%); and strives for political influence (56%).
More than 80% of Germans believe that Islam deprives women of their rights, and 70% say Islam is associated with religious fanaticism and radicalism.
It's the only thing westerners like us hear about Islam in the media and that stuff is common in countries with it as the state-religion. People rarely focus on what unites us, but instead we focus on what seperates us and claiming that feminism is stronger in muslim countries than western countries, or that islamic radicals aren't the most famous ones in the western world (and probably the most numerous ones as well, even though christian or hindu radicals exist as well) would be completely ridiculous. Kinda disappointed in you right now deep, would have expected more from you than a poll that could have been made pretty much everywhere. (And if anybody wants to discuss the post with me, just PM me, this stuff doesn't belong in this thread.)
An insight into the thinking is given by Sergei Markov, a Kremlin-connected analyst and politician, who is in Crimea meeting with local officials. When asked for his view on the Kiev protests, he said: "The plan it seems to me to was very clear. Give Ukraine a Mikheil Saakashvili type leader. Start a big anti-Russian campaign, train the army to Nato standards, fill everyone with anti-Russian ideology, and then throw the Ukrainian army into Russia at a time when a coup is being organised. I haven't spoken to Putin about it personally, but I am certain he thinks the same."
You gotta give credit to the Russians, they say bullshit with the best straight face of anyone.
An insight into the thinking is given by Sergei Markov, a Kremlin-connected analyst and politician, who is in Crimea meeting with local officials. When asked for his view on the Kiev protests, he said: "The plan it seems to me to was very clear. Give Ukraine a Mikheil Saakashvili type leader. Start a big anti-Russian campaign, train the army to Nato standards, fill everyone with anti-Russian ideology, and then throw the Ukrainian army into Russia at a time when a coup is being organised. I haven't spoken to Putin about it personally, but I am certain he thinks the same."
You gotta give credit to the Russians, they say bullshit with the best straight face of anyone.
Having represented a number of people from different cultures, I feel like Russians are the best liars.
Nah, Russians are the worst liars there are. They actually believe in BS they tell most of the time. Like mine position on everyone lying.
Probably a large number. If you think about a fact like this: "Polls conducted in 2010 suggested that at least one quarter of adult Americans said that they doubted Obama's U.S. birth,while a May 2011 Gallup poll found that 13% of American adults (23% of Republicans) continued to express such doubts." in a country like America where access to free media is much broader than in Russia. Why wouldnt you be surprised to find a large number of Russians who for the last 3 months have all news announce that fascist-nazis are taking over power to believe it.
Without wanting to sound arrogant, I think the US is on a different level than most countries in that regard as well, even if it's for different reasons than in Russia.
there are no radical beliefs held by a large minority of Germans? Maybe about Muslims ?
Actually I was talking about politics and media actively contributing to giving people ridiculously stupid opinions, I blame the fact that america only has 2 parties for that, which are so deep in the trenches that they can't even work together after the elections are over (and FOX news ). Not sure how you came to the whole radical believes thing, since the conversation was about liars first and then stupid opinons like the one you mentioned here:
"Polls conducted in 2010 suggested that at least one quarter of adult Americans said that they doubted Obama's U.S. birth,while a May 2011 Gallup poll found that 13% of American adults (23% of Republicans) continued to express such doubts."
Wouldn't call that radical just very... dumb.
well, i thought it illustrated how most democracies have a surprisingly large number of people who believe dumb things, although I agree the rhetoric against Obama from some groups have been disproportionately dumb.
22:40: Armed men who failed to takeover the anti-aircraft missile base in Crimea's Yevpatoria earlier today, returned to the base with "about 300 radically-minded Russian residents" who tried to provoke the Ukrainian soldiers, military commander Oleksandr Lomaka tells Ukrainan media - via BBC Monitoring.
On March 05 2014 06:45 zeo wrote: Please quote where I said they were 'totaly 100% all nazi's'. Stop misrepresenting what I have said. In fact I do belive the Crimean referendum date is too soon, just like its too soon for general elections.
OK, lets allow your former posts to represent yourself:
On December 16 2013 15:40 PaleMan wrote: so we banned that commercials of how its cool to be gay in our country
You didn't just ban gay commercials, you banned any type of information that implies that "gay relationships are equal to heterosexual relationships". If that is not discrimination encouraged by the law than what is it? You also banned the right "to speak in defence of gay rights and distribute material related to gay rights".
When McCain landed in Kiev he rushed to meet Oleh Tyahnybog, a representative of one of the leading opposition political parties, Svoboda. An extreme nationalist party, Svoboda members are fond of wearing t-shirts with slogans such as “Beat the zhids!” using a derogatory term for Jews.
On January 27 2014 06:43 DeepElemBlues wrote: okay well the one side is a bunch of people who put other people in jail for no legitimate reason, have the police attack protesters for no legitimate reason, pass fascist laws trying to scare people who disagree with them into submitting, and are basically a bunch of capos for Don Putin's Ukrainian interests
the other side is a bunch of people who don't want any of the above and want a free trade agreement with the EU
so there are two sides, it's just that one is crap and one isn't.
You seem to be forgetting that the last time these 'revolutioners' came to power they brought the country on the brink of economic collapse with their irrational russophobia. Practically the only thing the current president could do to save the country was turn to the only party willing to save Ukraine's ass. Russia.
Dav1oN has it right and I've said it before in this thread, the whole landscape needs to change. That won't happen as long as these hard-core nationalists, football hooligans and nazi sympathizers keep brainwashing the people in the streets to destroy their own country. Its so easy to be an internet freedom fighter circlejerker these days on TL.
On February 19 2014 18:00 Liman wrote: Here is a map of 2012 parliamentary election. It shows that Ukraine is a divided country. Pink is anti Russian,blue is pro Russian. No election will resolve that. Broad political agreement is needed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ukr_elections_2012_multimandate_okruhs.png
Potentially, our country might be divided on two, which automaticly puts western part even in more horrible financial position, cause most of heavy production and light production are situated on east :/ And it means no more dotations from west to east
Don't worry, the paradise of EU will more than make up for the country being landlocked and having no industry. The great and humble people that set fire to things on the street will come to power and no more evul dicktator. Just like Libya! Now they are eating sand instead of food and living the good life under sharia law.
edit: trust me davion, you don't want to live in the part of the country the neonazi's take over
On February 20 2014 21:31 Sent. wrote: I can't belive they're using live ammunition. I hope it won't turn into another Syria or Russian intervention.
Whats even more shocking to me is that they even shoot people trying to help the wounded. I can understand if the police shoots at poeple who are about to throws molotows at them ( of course they shouldnt use live ammunition but if they have nothing else its understandable that they try to save their lives aswell) but i dont know how you can shoot people trying to help..
Earlier in this thread there were photos of the police throwing molotov cocktails at protesters. It's horrible that they're shooting at medics, unarmed protesters, and those trying to help the wounded, but not really surprising to me anymore.
There is a reason they're trying to remove these horrible people from power. And a reason Putin is supporting the government.
Well the protesters arent very civil either, there are two sides of the coin. It is a bit more diverse than you might think.
That said literally nothing except insinuating bad things about the protesters.
Sigh, barely any people left on the street support Ukraine going into the EU, all of them are ether hard nationalists who long for the time when their grandparents sucked Hitlers cock during the war, even harder nazi's imported from Lviv to destroy things in Kiev, Che Guevara wannabees, hooligans and all around filth of Ukrainian society. These are not 'helpless people', helpless people do not kill 15 police officers in full riot gear with bullet proof vests and shields. Paramilitary organizations arming themselves with guns and bombs are within the 'protesters' and that is why the police have live rounds, that is why people are dieing. They are holding the country hostage. Normal people in Ukraine want them out and its the duty of the government to protect the people from these bandits whose only purpose in life is to vandalize and to destroy the property of the people of Ukraine. Is the government doing a good job? No. Is sending people to die and bringing ruin to your country even though elections are 12 months away? For fucks sake, get these animals off the street.
The people of Sevastopol are already saying they will exit Ukraine if the bandits on the street take power. No one in their right mind would want to live in the desolation Ukraine will become if the bandits take over
(note that in this case I think 1 of the pictures were from before EuroMaiden.)
On February 21 2014 00:20 farvacola wrote: Nice try, but posting a few indiscriminate photos alongside sourceless rhetoric does not do anything other than make you look like a Yanukovich shill. The moment you and the opposition realize that those who have taken to the streets are more than bandits and "animals", the situation can begin to improve. Until then, keep on sucking the authority's cock, as you so eloquently put it.
On February 21 2014 00:22 Schmobutzen wrote: You, Sir are full of shit.
You are not willing to look behind your curtains. I pitty you! Yes there are fascists and extremists under the protesting people. But not only!!! Look at the videos and you will see all kind of people.
Just refrain from posting here further!
If you got into a protest knowing full well there are armed nazi's, hooligans and paramilitaries around you don't be surprised when you get shot, I am sorry you got shot, maybe you are a good person but you were brainwashed into thinking going to a protest with armed people around you ready to shoot at police was a good idea
So? Only 239 out of 450 members of parliament were present to vote, mostly members of the opposition. 15 members of Yanukovych's party went over to the dark side ($$$), big deal. To enact constitutional reforms they need 300 votes, and anyway the president needs to ratify it. A lot of nothing was done at the parliament tonight.
Assuming it actually happends this stops the bloodshed. How can that be a bad thing. People have a right to protest without being shot at by live ammunition.
Amd why do the 15 who switched need to be bribed. Has it ever accured to you that even those on Yanukovychs side might not be happy with the police force killing the very people they are sworn to protect?
Getting the nazi's off the street and into prison stops the bloodshed. If the bandits on the street really do pull off a coup d'etat and take down a democraticly elected government recognized by the whole world as legitimate what happens then? Any country with an interest in Ukraine can claim that the Ukraine they signed agrements with stopped existing.
Russia already has the whole Black Sea fleet stationed in Sevastopol, they legaly already have a very large force of marines in the country by agreement. These nationalists/nazi's come to power, what then?
On February 23 2014 01:25 hunts wrote: I'm glad at least things are slowly going in the right direction. I was born in ukraine and lived in dnepropitrovsk until I was 8, when we moved to america, makes me very sad that it seems since then things have only been going downhill for ukraine. Unfortunately I also can't help with translating news as I forgot how to read/write russian a long time ago.
Things don't seem to be going in the right direction at all... The leaders of the strongest opposition parties in the country that actually started the protest in the first place have absolutely no control over the rioters. The blatantly stupid action of signing an agreement they can not enforce just goes to prove what we have known for weeks now, anti-civilization, far-right, borderline-fascist and fascist groups control maiden. The president honored his side of the agreement and withdrew the police from the streets which the fascists used to take control of the city and parliament. A parliament taken over by bandits is now illegalizing any form of resistance to banditry and releasing a convicted criminal who is not only (one of) the most corrupt politician in the country, but also tried to have her business rivals liquidated.
Chief Rabbi of Ukraine urged Jews to leave Kiev, joining the exodus of people fleeing western cities into the east of the country caused by food shortages and the horrific security situation. In the absence of any kind of rule of law the east of the country has taken the sovereignty of the nation into its own hands. Forming armed anti-fascist citizen groups to protect the people of the regions from the black hole forming in the west.
I don't see how Ukraine is slowly moving in the right direction.
On February 23 2014 01:50 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Yeah, concerning the emotional and historical associations the words "Hitler" and "Nazi", shouldn't be used as analogies here. Then again, people like Zeo and Yanukovych have been using those exact same words for their analogies, but none of us need to swoop to their level.
User was warned for this post
(This one is quite the gem. I didn't remember that it was zeo who posted it, no wonder he took such offence whenever I mention photoshopped hitler pictures.
On February 23 2014 08:34 zeo wrote: Berkut from Sevastopol receiving a hero's welcome upon returning home from Kiev:
Look at how the guys' in masks' eyes dart in shame. I'd be embarrassed by this too. The guys' speech is hilarious too. "We know you guys werent there to defend Yanukovich's stolen millions, but he betrayed you. Well Sevatopol wont betray you the way Yanukovich has" classic. Zoe you should really learn Russian, it would help you post videos that maybe help you propagandize for Russia a bit easier, some of these things they say, they dont sounds so good for your boy.
Who's boy? What boy?
Well since you are repeating Yanukovich's stance that this is a coup by fascist genociders obviously he is your boy. Its awkward though when propaganda from the most pro-Russian province in Ukraine agrees that he is a corrupt thief huh.
Fuck Yanukovych, what leader negotiates, or even worse lets his government get overrun by bandits? The people of eastern Ukraine have a lot more things to worry about than that stooge.
On February 23 2014 08:52 Derez wrote: What the hell does 'foreign supported' even mean in your eyes?
Any money the EU funnels into places like the ukraine are for building democratic institutions, unlike russia who'll just blatantly support anyone with anything ranging from weapons to bags of unmarked bills. You don't see the EU calling for violent revolution against the regime, while you do see putin and his cronies asking for a beatdown on protestors. You're comparing a largely democratic institutions against a one man govt. I know what side I'd rather be on.
I don't believe you wrote that with a straight face.
Hoo and you call others fascists? With a straight face?
Stalinist denomination communist by any chance?
Yanukovych is a weak leader who made bad desisions constantly just so he could cover his ass, and wave responsability. Now neo-nazi's patrol the streets of Kiev 'protecting' people. Of course he should be impeached.
On February 23 2014 16:06 DeepElemBlues wrote: These statues are symbols of Russia to the protesters they don't exactly like Russia.
These are symbols of the struggle of all Soviet peoples against fascism, that is a statue of an Ukrainian anti-fascist soldier that isn't welcome anymore.
There are at least 5 statues of Lenin in America, I don't see riot groups forming to take them down.
On February 23 2014 21:54 zeo wrote: The only people who I am calling Nazi's are these people, seen here honoring fallen SS members in Ukraine:
edit: these people have taken control of the government building for 2 days and already they are trying to ban the party of regions and the communist party. Is eveyone in those parties Yanukovych? No, and yes, a lot of them are probably corrupt, but that doesn't give anyone the right to ban political opponents or give themselves the authority to appoint and sack judges.
On February 26 2014 04:57 Cheerio wrote: I guess this thread is done. There is a number of unresolved issues but those should probably be discussed in some kind of "Ukraine post Yanukovich" thread.
Are you serious? There is a junta in place in Kiev that barely controls the center of the city with some provinces to the west, let alone the rest of the country.
Obviously the people tearing down statues of Mikhail Kutuzov (who died 200 years ago), as well as the people drawing nazi symbols on torn down statues of anti-fascist soldiers with barely any form of condemnation ether from the junta in Kiev or the people in western Ukraine, believe Maidan is still going on.
On February 27 2014 18:22 mahrgell wrote: Sounds like what usually happens with North Korea doing some weird shit and spontaneous US-South Korean trainings. So boring stuff, but everyone likes to show off a bit and pretends to be supermegaawesome.
Btw: as it wasnt mentioned: Berkut was dissolved yesterday by the new minister of internal affairs. Well.. they ould have been useful now!
If there is a junta in power bringing authoritarian laws, violating minority rights and freedom of speech you don't sit around and dwindle your thumbs. Whatever is happening now in Crimea and the push for federalization in the rest of the eastern half of the country is solely the fault of the junta in Kiev right now.
If the junta starts murdering people that don't share their ultra-nationalist views it is the responsibility of Russia and the EU to intervene and give the power back to the people. The 150k soldiers on the border keep the junta in check.
On February 27 2014 21:21 Ghanburighan wrote: It's like an attack by zombies, but instead of the stench of death, you recognize them by their poor spelling and insubstantial arguments.
Disregarding someone's personal opinion because their English is not up to your standard, I think you need to calm down.
On February 27 2014 22:04 Saryph wrote: Sign of true heroes: Using sniper rifles to shoot the heads/necks of unarmed young women in white, with red crosses painted on their bodies, who are doing nothing other than trying to help the wounded.
This is a biased view of events. An unbiased view would be that the fascist/neo-nazi wings of the 'revolution' got their hands on firearms, some of which can be used for long distance sharpshooting. The government, seeing people getting shot at with snipers sent their own sniper teams to take out the opposing snipers. During this time, unfortunately people got shot. In any normal functioning society it takes six months (at least) to build up a case and know for certain which side shot and killed who. I'm sure you sitting in your chair half the world away believe laughable evidence such as 'but the shot came from the government side, my friends uncle who works at Nintendo told me so', but the civilized world doesn't work that way.
On February 28 2014 00:32 farvacola wrote: ^No they didn't. And I'm glad to see that Zeo is still utterly unable to back up what he says with anything more than random youtube videos and WW2 atrocity nostalgia.
Suppose it's a step up from random photoshops to prove a point. Always see the bright side.
Hello friend. I see you have just registered here yesterday and yet you seem to already have a vast knowledge about my posting history. If you are not a PBU trying to get around a permaban you are more than welcome to enter the pro-NATO circlejerk, because indeed, everyone has a right to their own opinions. I hope you have a pleasant time at Team Liquid
Hi there. You might want to check "m4inbrain", my proper account, which i can't access right now but is in the process to be resolved (no, not perma or any other form of banned, just an email-adress-problem). I'm following the thread pretty thoroughly, so yes, i have a pretty good knowledge about what you're posting in here, don't worry too much. If i get something wrong, which i haven't so far, you can always correct me.
There's middleground between "NATO-circlejerk" and the "russian-idiocracy", you know. I don't approve of alot of things that happened in the past weeks, but at least, i form my opinion without west or east in mind, which you and alot of your circlejerk-friends (no, you're not an ounce different than the "pro-west side") are missing.
Indeed that account does exist. Carry on then.
I certainly do not approve of everything Russia or the NATO are doing in the world. If you read all of my posts in this thread you would know I was all for a referendum and early elections. I expressed my concern that there were violent agitators on the street who wanted nothing more than to have the police return fire. I saw groups that clearly didn't want a peaceful end to the crises, who were more than happy to run their country into the ground.
Then I started really looking into who these people were. What I found was that 90% of the people doing the fighting/killing/dieing on the street didn't want to get into the EU at all. That some 30-40% of the people pushing for Maidan were ultra-nationalists who want to build their national identity on hatred of other people, while at the same time glorifying Nazi collaborators. As well as outright fascists and neo-nazi's/anarcists, and run of the mill crazies who just want to destroy things. I'm sure many of the people who are being labeled as Putinists in this thread for some reason came to the same conclusion as I did:
"Whatever these people want, I want the o`posite"
Its quite simple really. I hate communism, communism brought great tragedy to my country and people and I really, really don't like people who support the return of communism in my country. Following that line of thought if communism is a hole in the ground, fascism jumped into that hole and brought a shovel with it. Nazi collaborators are the worst, when they make up 30% of a movement something is seriously wrong with that movement and it has been proven time and time again that giving even a little power to fascists is something that is very wrong, as seen with what is happening in the Ukraine right now. Yanukovych was a bad leader, no doubt about that. But the people leading the junta right now are animals.
The junta controlling Kiev, moments after coming to power automatically started restricting human rights, taking away rights and restricting freedom of speech. Not only this, they pushed for a purge of everything to do with the history of Ukraine they deem undesirable, a kind of book burning, to destroy the culture of the Ukrainians that fought Ukrainian fascism.
On February 28 2014 00:32 farvacola wrote: ^No they didn't. And I'm glad to see that Zeo is still utterly unable to back up what he says with anything more than random youtube videos and WW2 atrocity nostalgia.
Suppose it's a step up from random photoshops to prove a point. Always see the bright side.
Hello friend. I see you have just registered here yesterday and yet you seem to already have a vast knowledge about my posting history. If you are not a PBU trying to get around a permaban you are more than welcome to enter the pro-NATO circlejerk, because indeed, everyone has a right to their own opinions. I hope you have a pleasant time at Team Liquid
Hi there. You might want to check "m4inbrain", my proper account, which i can't access right now but is in the process to be resolved (no, not perma or any other form of banned, just an email-adress-problem). I'm following the thread pretty thoroughly, so yes, i have a pretty good knowledge about what you're posting in here, don't worry too much. If i get something wrong, which i haven't so far, you can always correct me.
There's middleground between "NATO-circlejerk" and the "russian-idiocracy", you know. I don't approve of alot of things that happened in the past weeks, but at least, i form my opinion without west or east in mind, which you and alot of your circlejerk-friends (no, you're not an ounce different than the "pro-west side") are missing.
Indeed that account does exist. Carry on then.
I certainly do not approve of everything Russia or the NATO are doing in the world. If you read all of my posts in this thread you would know I was all for a referendum and early elections. I expressed my concern that there were violent agitators on the street who wanted nothing more than to have the police return fire. I saw groups that clearly didn't want a peaceful end to the crises, who were more than happy to run their country into the ground.
Then I started really looking into who these people were. What I found was that 90% of the people doing the fighting/killing/dieing on the street didn't want to get into the EU at all. That some 30-40% of the people pushing for Maidan were ultra-nationalists who want to build their national identity on hatred of other people, while at the same time glorifying Nazi collaborators. As well as outright fascists and neo-nazi's/anarcists, and run of the mill crazies who just want to destroy things. I'm sure many of the people who are being labeled as Putinists in this thread for some reason came to the same conclusion as I did:
"Whatever these people want, I want the opposite"
Its quite simple really. I hate communism, communism brought great tragedy to my country and people and I really, really don't like people who support the return of communism in my country. Following that line of thought if communism is a hole in the ground, fascism jumped into that hole and brought a shovel with it. Nazi collaborators are the worst, when they make up 30% of a movement something is seriously wrong with that movement and it has been proven time and time again that giving even a little power to fascists is something that is very wrong, as seen with what is happening in the Ukraine right now. Yanukovych was a bad leader, no doubt about that. But the people leading the junta right now are animals.
The junta controlling Kiev, moments after coming to power automatically started restricting human rights, taking away rights and restricting freedom of speech. Not only this, they pushed for a purge of everything to do with the history of Ukraine they deem undesirable, a kind of book burning, to destroy the culture of the Ukrainians that fought Ukrainian fascism.
And where, pray tell, did you look?
(Realize that again referencing youtube videos will only further validate the notion that you are arguing on behalf of a bullshit agenda.)
Normal people look at all the media sources and bring an educated opinion. Only watching CNN/BBC/FOX means that you have a clearly warped view of reality. Watching only RT or Al Jazeera is the same, but here is where the magic happens. You watch NATO and non-NATO media together, if they show a thing happening (like the rise of fascism and extremism in the Ukraine) in both circles of media then it has a much higher probability of being true.
And then of course you form your own opinion, I'm sure you'll get it down someday.
If anything the most reasonable approach (assuming actual violence against those groups) would be for Russia to step in and allow the people living there a democratic vote to make them choose what they'd like to do.
And would Russia allow for the same democratic processes in their own state? No they wouldn't. Because oil and gas-rich territories would have split away a long time ago and lived like kings now, while Moscow region would have been the New Detroit.
No country would allow these 'democratic' processes that have been going on in Ukraine.
On February 28 2014 02:39 {CC}StealthBlue wrote: So how can the supporters of the ousted president expect support if he fled to russia, and now gunmen have raised a russian flag over a government building?
The same way the rioters received support when armed thugs attacked city halls all over western Ukraine. Don't know why it was legal to take over a city hall and raise nazi collaborator flags then, but not now.
On March 01 2014 23:51 zeo wrote: Local government buildings taken by anti-junta protesters
I don't understand how can you post images with Russian flags on Ukrainian teritory and call all this crap anit-junta movement. Why don't you put some swastikas above Kiev to make it look even better?
The people of Ukraine want Russia to protect them. Carrying around Russian flags is no different than carrying EU/US flags at Maidan
Does your fixation on the belief that the Russians are always the good guys (atleast that's what I've been reading out of your posts) come from a general dislike of western countries, or from liking Russia in particular? Don't take it the wrong way, it's a genuine question, since you sided with Russia on every point of discussion here for soon to be a hundred pages, starting with this post (you made one or two before this one, but those were mostly about criticizing the american foreign policy in similar cases if I remember correctly):
On January 27 2014 07:07 zeo wrote:
On January 27 2014 06:43 DeepElemBlues wrote: okay well the one side is a bunch of people who put other people in jail for no legitimate reason, have the police attack protesters for no legitimate reason, pass fascist laws trying to scare people who disagree with them into submitting, and are basically a bunch of capos for Don Putin's Ukrainian interests
the other side is a bunch of people who don't want any of the above and want a free trade agreement with the EU
so there are two sides, it's just that one is crap and one isn't.
You seem to be forgetting that the last time these 'revolutioners' came to power they brought the country on the brink of economic collapse with their irrational russophobia. Practically the only thing the current president could do to save the country was turn to the only party willing to save Ukraine's ass. Russia.
Dav1oN has it right and I've said it before in this thread, the whole landscape needs to change. That won't happen as long as these hard-core nationalists, football hooligans and nazi sympathizers keep brainwashing the people in the streets to destroy their own country. Its so easy to be an internet freedom fighter circlejerker these days on TL.
Whatever a fascist wants, I want the opposite. When it became clear that the Nazi-colaborator wannabe's had taken over maidan the only logical course to take would be anti-maidan. Simple.
On March 01 2014 23:51 zeo wrote: Local government buildings taken by anti-junta protesters
I don't understand how can you post images with Russian flags on Ukrainian teritory and call all this crap anit-junta movement. Why don't you put some swastikas above Kiev to make it look even better?
The people of Ukraine want Russia to protect them. Carrying around Russian flags is no different than carrying EU/US flags at Maidan
Does your fixation on the belief that the Russians are always the good guys (atleast that's what I've been reading out of your posts) come from a general dislike of western countries, or from liking Russia in particular? Don't take it the wrong way, it's a genuine question, since you sided with Russia on every point of discussion here for soon to be a hundred pages, starting with this post (you made one or two before this one, but those were mostly about criticizing the american foreign policy in similar cases if I remember correctly):
On January 27 2014 07:07 zeo wrote:
On January 27 2014 06:43 DeepElemBlues wrote: okay well the one side is a bunch of people who put other people in jail for no legitimate reason, have the police attack protesters for no legitimate reason, pass fascist laws trying to scare people who disagree with them into submitting, and are basically a bunch of capos for Don Putin's Ukrainian interests
the other side is a bunch of people who don't want any of the above and want a free trade agreement with the EU
so there are two sides, it's just that one is crap and one isn't.
You seem to be forgetting that the last time these 'revolutioners' came to power they brought the country on the brink of economic collapse with their irrational russophobia. Practically the only thing the current president could do to save the country was turn to the only party willing to save Ukraine's ass. Russia.
Dav1oN has it right and I've said it before in this thread, the whole landscape needs to change. That won't happen as long as these hard-core nationalists, football hooligans and nazi sympathizers keep brainwashing the people in the streets to destroy their own country. Its so easy to be an internet freedom fighter circlejerker these days on TL.
Whatever a fascist wants, I want the opposite. When it became clear that the Nazi-colaborator wannabe's had taken over maidan the only logical course to take would be anti-maidan. Simple.
That's silly, you were anti-maidan before there was any talks of fascists. At least be honest to yourself.
Not true. I was against violent protests from the very start. I became anti-maidan after the radicalization of the protests (after McCain). Please do not spread misinformation.
On March 01 2014 23:51 zeo wrote: Local government buildings taken by anti-junta protesters
I don't understand how can you post images with Russian flags on Ukrainian teritory and call all this crap anit-junta movement. Why don't you put some swastikas above Kiev to make it look even better?
The people of Ukraine want Russia to protect them. Carrying around Russian flags is no different than carrying EU/US flags at Maidan
Does your fixation on the belief that the Russians are always the good guys (atleast that's what I've been reading out of your posts) come from a general dislike of western countries, or from liking Russia in particular? Don't take it the wrong way, it's a genuine question, since you sided with Russia on every point of discussion here for soon to be a hundred pages, starting with this post (you made one or two before this one, but those were mostly about criticizing the american foreign policy in similar cases if I remember correctly):
On January 27 2014 07:07 zeo wrote:
On January 27 2014 06:43 DeepElemBlues wrote: okay well the one side is a bunch of people who put other people in jail for no legitimate reason, have the police attack protesters for no legitimate reason, pass fascist laws trying to scare people who disagree with them into submitting, and are basically a bunch of capos for Don Putin's Ukrainian interests
the other side is a bunch of people who don't want any of the above and want a free trade agreement with the EU
so there are two sides, it's just that one is crap and one isn't.
You seem to be forgetting that the last time these 'revolutioners' came to power they brought the country on the brink of economic collapse with their irrational russophobia. Practically the only thing the current president could do to save the country was turn to the only party willing to save Ukraine's ass. Russia.
Dav1oN has it right and I've said it before in this thread, the whole landscape needs to change. That won't happen as long as these hard-core nationalists, football hooligans and nazi sympathizers keep brainwashing the people in the streets to destroy their own country. Its so easy to be an internet freedom fighter circlejerker these days on TL.
Whatever a fascist wants, I want the opposite. When it became clear that the Nazi-colaborator wannabe's had taken over maidan the only logical course to take would be anti-maidan. Simple.
But they were always just a small group and even now have nearly no political power.
In a sense they were a smaller group but at the end of the day they were the one doing 90% of the fighting/killing/dieing and are now at the top of the junta as a result. Maybe Right Sector don't have anyone in parliament but they are the ones with guns standing outside the parliament building making sure the revolution goes as they planned it. While the wannabe Nazi collaborators have powerful positions in the junta government now.
They are a cancer and Russia sending troops into Crimea is what happens when you come to power on the backs of fascists, the people of Ukraine wont stand for it.
On March 02 2014 01:54 zlefin wrote: Russia sure likes posturing needlessly and causing trouble. They could have just called for a referendum in Crimea, and probably won (especially with their covert efforts).
That's precisely what Crimea has voted to do. They voted to have a democratic referendum. But the Kiev-Junta government have refused to honour the outcome. They tried to take part in the democratic process.
The democratic process isn't democratic when an outside nation moves troops in with the intent of backing one side. Nice try though.
The democratic process isn't democratic when an outside nation funds and supports ultra-nationalists taking down a democratically elected government.
On March 02 2014 21:39 mdb wrote: I'm scared. 30 thousand russians are living in Bulgaria. What if they feel threatened? We are so close - on the other side Black sea.
Just don't euromaiden and bring fascists to power and you'll be fine
If tl:dr then, here's a good qoute of Zeo;"barely any people left on the street support Ukraine going into the EU, all of them are ether hard nationalists who long for the time when their grandparents sucked Hitlers cock"
Zeo has been constantly portraying the majority of protestors and now the controllers of ukraine as either nazis, or ultra nationalists or thugs or whatever.
Bringing infomration that such group exists is no problem. Western media portrays that they exist, but the significan't difference is that they aren't trying to paint a picture that those minority groups are in control of euromaiden and are now in control of the govenment.
An insight into the thinking is given by Sergei Markov, a Kremlin-connected analyst and politician, who is in Crimea meeting with local officials. When asked for his view on the Kiev protests, he said: "The plan it seems to me to was very clear. Give Ukraine a Mikheil Saakashvili type leader. Start a big anti-Russian campaign, train the army to Nato standards, fill everyone with anti-Russian ideology, and then throw the Ukrainian army into Russia at a time when a coup is being organised. I haven't spoken to Putin about it personally, but I am certain he thinks the same."
You gotta give credit to the Russians, they say bullshit with the best straight face of anyone.
An insight into the thinking is given by Sergei Markov, a Kremlin-connected analyst and politician, who is in Crimea meeting with local officials. When asked for his view on the Kiev protests, he said: "The plan it seems to me to was very clear. Give Ukraine a Mikheil Saakashvili type leader. Start a big anti-Russian campaign, train the army to Nato standards, fill everyone with anti-Russian ideology, and then throw the Ukrainian army into Russia at a time when a coup is being organised. I haven't spoken to Putin about it personally, but I am certain he thinks the same."
You gotta give credit to the Russians, they say bullshit with the best straight face of anyone.
Having represented a number of people from different cultures, I feel like Russians are the best liars.
Nah, Russians are the worst liars there are. They actually believe in BS they tell most of the time. Like mine position on everyone lying.
Probably a large number. If you think about a fact like this: "Polls conducted in 2010 suggested that at least one quarter of adult Americans said that they doubted Obama's U.S. birth,while a May 2011 Gallup poll found that 13% of American adults (23% of Republicans) continued to express such doubts." in a country like America where access to free media is much broader than in Russia. Why wouldnt you be surprised to find a large number of Russians who for the last 3 months have all news announce that fascist-nazis are taking over power to believe it.
Without wanting to sound arrogant, I think the US is on a different level than most countries in that regard as well, even if it's for different reasons than in Russia.
there are no radical beliefs held by a large minority of Germans? Maybe about Muslims ?
For what it's worth, I've had several Mexican-descended friends who have done study abroad in Europe and spent a lot of time in Germany. They were misjudged as being Turkish and got a good amount of shit for it. Germany's not allowed to hate Jews, so I think they've shifted to Muslims
Please, I don't apply this to all Germans or even a majority. Just saying they are a non-negligible factor in German society today. Of course, on this forum of gaming nerds from all nationalities, we get a lot more not giving a care about ridiculous bigotry here than would happen in our respective cultures and societies, and the same absolutely applies to the United States.
An insight into the thinking is given by Sergei Markov, a Kremlin-connected analyst and politician, who is in Crimea meeting with local officials. When asked for his view on the Kiev protests, he said: "The plan it seems to me to was very clear. Give Ukraine a Mikheil Saakashvili type leader. Start a big anti-Russian campaign, train the army to Nato standards, fill everyone with anti-Russian ideology, and then throw the Ukrainian army into Russia at a time when a coup is being organised. I haven't spoken to Putin about it personally, but I am certain he thinks the same."
You gotta give credit to the Russians, they say bullshit with the best straight face of anyone.
Having represented a number of people from different cultures, I feel like Russians are the best liars.
Quite honestly, they have to be good. From what I know, Russians aren't as naive as Americans. Then again, maybe I expect too much from my countrymen, so I don't know.
As legit as those unmarked, well organised soldiers, speaking russian, driving russian military vehicles, with russian license plates, and those dumb enough to talk to press that they are russian soldiers, being crimean citizens who took up arms.
now you started this with saying you hoped you didn't sound arrogant but surely germans would not be guilty of holding radically doubleplusungood opinions. now we see that germans do, but it doesn't really matter because whatabout everyone else who allegedly does too?
It's the only thing westerners like us hear about Islam in the media and that stuff is common in countries with it as the state-religion.
this is just extremely untrue, from george w. bush to der spiegel we have heard ad nauseum after every terrorist attack or honor killing or what-have-you that islam is a religion of peace, most muslims are just as modern and hip and progressive and whatever as any latte-sipping westerner, people who blame muslims are just as bad or probably worse than jihadis themselves, we must not offend our muslim communities because that's mean blah blah blah. this idea that the only thing westerners hear about islam is jihad and other negative things doesn't match up with reality at all.
Kinda disappointed in you right now deep, would have expected more from you than a poll that could have been made pretty much everywhere.
not as disappointed as i am in you allowing dirty nationalism (lol) to infect your lofty progressive view of yourself and your countrymen and throwing out "i'm disappointed in you" and the totally irrelevant "that poll could be from any western country"
seems even we americans the most unprogressive westerners around (except maybe for italians) are more PC about muslims than germans.
so maybe next time don't say something incredibly arrogant and ignorant and go but i'm not trying to be arrogant and then get pissy about it and want to take it behind closed doors when your preconceptions don't square with the facts. don't toss it out in the public square so to speak then cry about how it isn't the proper time or place when you started it.
Please, I don't apply this to all Germans or even a majority.
and yet the poll bears out precisely the latter
perhaps we need some more manufactured shocked and outraged disbelief over the refusal of people to not see russia and the US as identical or at best two sides of the same coin, that will do the trick
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