EPTRacial Balance in GSL (2010-2013 WoL) - Page 6
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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BernabusStarcraft2
Scotland112 Posts
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
On March 10 2013 02:24 Emzeeshady wrote: There were 0 Zergs in the Code S Quarters And people complain about only having two Terrans in the quarters... -_- Also, most of the best TvZ matches were after the queen buff. The matchup was not only predictable to the point of annoyance but Zergs would also die to random Hellion runbys in half of the games because Queens were not good enough to open with. After the queen buff, the majority of TvZ became nr10 into 15 minute brood lord/infestor into Zerg wins almost every time. It doesn't get any more predictable than that. I could not possibly disagree with you any more strongly that the best of TvZ has been in this insanely dull era of passive, defensive play. Here's your good matchup: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NlzWXQk.png) | ||
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FeyFey
Germany10114 Posts
On March 10 2013 02:26 Zrana wrote: Yeah nothing like the days of tank pushes under the natural cliff of TDA, or bad terrans beating zergs like Leenock by walking a few hellions into the incredibly open natural of Dual Sight. Balanced and highly entertaining. For Terrans. Just imagine mapmakers wouldn't have tried to create perfectly balanced maps in all matchups or maps that should help Zerg, ending up increasing the power of Bio and Hellions even more. Everyone made mistakes that time and it caused Blizzard to create mistakes that will forever be bound to this game unless they realize that these changes are not longer needed. But TvZ was really highly enjoyable on both sides for me pre-queen-messup. | ||
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Andre
Slovenia3515 Posts
On March 10 2013 02:42 BernabusStarcraft2 wrote: Pretty much everything points out that Protoss was the worst race in WOL. By a fair amount. Protoss didn't win a major tournament for like ~2years in BW. Nobody whined about balance. In SC2 a race dominates for 4-5 months and it all goes bad. | ||
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Coffeeling
Finland250 Posts
On March 10 2013 02:24 Emzeeshady wrote: There were 0 Zergs in the Code S Quarters And people complain about only having two Terrans in the quarters... -_- Also, most of the best TvZ matches were after the queen buff. The matchup was not only predictable to the point of annoyance but Zergs would also die to random Hellion runbys in half of the games because Queens were not good enough to open with. Eh, wut. If you didn't defend, sure. As far as WoL ZvT balance goes, though, apart from Infestors, the whole thing boils down to larvae. In the past, you needed larvae to defend early pushes and to shoo off the contain from Reactor Hellion Expand quickly. Zerg players didn't like it. I vividly remember the endless inanity of "making Roaches is unacceptable because it means we can't drone/tech optimally". I am serious. The damage IdrA and Artosis have done to Zerg players' mindset cannot be underestimated. The issue is that, as we all have (to our boredom) noticed over the last half a year, the Zerg economy, if unhindered, is broken. The ability to use all your production slots on nothing but economy is way too good to exist, except for the fact that in the past you could force Zerg to use larvae for defense. This meant both sides made army, econ and teched a bit. It was fair (though understandably felt bad for Z because they were literally being damaged). Also, the only really boring part about Reactor Hellion was that T went for it almost always. The opener itself played out entertainingly enough: both sides had high stakes (immediate, long-lasting loss of map control for Terran, severe economic damage or outright game loss for Zerg) and there was lots of action happening. Terrans were busy trying to snipe tumors, Z was busy trying to sneak them past the Hellions, players had to watch their Queens/Hellions constantly to prevent a Hellion/Speedling snipe, respectively, and so forth. The most important thing of all, though, was that it led to an actual midgame. And from here we get to the cascade effect the Queendralisk buff had. The early game implications are clear for all to see. But the ripple effects? Dear god. First, creep spread easily goes out of control, where spreading it was an effort before. The better economy allows for a very early swell of Infestors, which helps make Zerg safe and essentially kills the midgame, from which we get into quick, fast, Infestor/T3 comp with the accompanying tech switches. The sheer scale of the change is perhaps best realized when one stops to consider that in the past a 17 minute Hive was risky and greedy. Such a far cry from our current, absurdly safe 12 minute Hive timings, isn't it? That's all because Z had to invest into a midgame to fight off the Terran midgame (which they could get to due to less creep and slower Zerg development). And damn, was that midgame ever good. The slower Hive timings also made the late game more bearable - Terran had more time to get their infrastructure up to contend with Zerg's endgame composition. The fundamental character of it was then, and still is expensive, inflexible Terran infrastructure making very narrow anti-1-unit counters that have no other use vs. a flexible Zerg infrastructure making little but threats. The greatest casualty of the Queendralisk patch hasn't been balance, though - a certain amount of imbalance you can work around and it is even entertaining for some. The greatest casualties have been fun (the game has become dull), the idea that the game makes any kind of sense (the kind of imbalance and it's degree make the games feel just plain stupid). I also can't tell good and bad Zergs apart anymore. In the past, great creep spread was an achievement. There were brilliant holds, good game sense, great flanks. Mutas hadn't been eclipsed so badly and so were an actual (not just stubbornly stylistic) option. Now it's the same dull monotony where it feels like the sheer, absurd, dominant power of some key units does more work than the player. | ||
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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Sabu113
United States11035 Posts
For my mind the game looked the best balanced during the "blinks" of liberty stage. | ||
aksfjh
United States4853 Posts
On March 10 2013 03:10 Coffee Zombie wrote: Eh, wut. If you didn't defend, sure. As far as WoL ZvT balance goes, though, apart from Infestors, the whole thing boils down to larvae. In the past, you needed larvae to defend early pushes and to shoo off the contain from Reactor Hellion Expand quickly. Zerg players didn't like it. I vividly remember the endless inanity of "making Roaches is unacceptable because it means we can't drone/tech optimally". I am serious. The damage IdrA and Artosis have done to Zerg players' mindset cannot be underestimated. The issue is that, as we all have (to our boredom) noticed over the last half a year, the Zerg economy, if unhindered, is broken. The ability to use all your production slots on nothing but economy is way too good to exist, except for the fact that in the past you could force Zerg to use larvae for defense. This meant both sides made army, econ and teched a bit. It was fair (though understandably felt bad for Z because they were literally being damaged). Also, the only really boring part about Reactor Hellion was that T went for it almost always. The opener itself played out entertainingly enough: both sides had high stakes (immediate, long-lasting loss of map control for Terran, severe economic damage or outright game loss for Zerg) and there was lots of action happening. Terrans were busy trying to snipe tumors, Z was busy trying to sneak them past the Hellions, players had to watch their Queens/Hellions constantly to prevent a Hellion/Speedling snipe, respectively, and so forth. The most important thing of all, though, was that it led to an actual midgame. And from here we get to the cascade effect the Queendralisk buff had. The early game implications are clear for all to see. But the ripple effects? Dear god. First, creep spread easily goes out of control, where spreading it was an effort before. The better economy allows for a very early swell of Infestors, which helps make Zerg safe and essentially kills the midgame, from which we get into quick, fast, Infestor/T3 comp with the accompanying tech switches. The sheer scale of the change is perhaps best realized when one stops to consider that in the past a 17 minute Hive was risky and greedy. Such a far cry from our current, absurdly safe 12 minute Hive timings, isn't it? That's all because Z had to invest into a midgame to fight off the Terran midgame (which they could get to due to less creep and slower Zerg development). And damn, was that midgame ever good. The slower Hive timings also made the late game more bearable - Terran had more time to get their infrastructure up to contend with Zerg's endgame composition. The fundamental character of it was then, and still is expensive, inflexible Terran infrastructure making very narrow anti-1-unit counters that have no other use vs. a flexible Zerg infrastructure making little but threats. The greatest casualty of the Queendralisk patch hasn't been balance, though - a certain amount of imbalance you can work around and it is even entertaining for some. The greatest casualties have been fun (the game has become dull), the idea that the game makes any kind of sense (the kind of imbalance and it's degree make the games feel just plain stupid). I also can't tell good and bad Zergs apart anymore. In the past, great creep spread was an achievement. There were brilliant holds, good game sense, great flanks. Mutas hadn't been eclipsed so badly and so were an actual (not just stubbornly stylistic) option. Now it's the same dull monotony where it feels like the sheer, absurd, dominant power of some key units does more work than the player. Exactly. The disappointing legacy for WoL is that Blizzard screwed up the balance (and interesting play) a year ago, and then didn't bother fixing it because of an expansion. | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
But no, apparently every single SC2 thread on TL has to be dragged through the mud before people are remotely satisfied. | ||
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Coffeeling
Finland250 Posts
On May 15 2012 03:58 Coffee Zombie wrote: Just leaving this here because people are visual thinkers (and my paint skills rock, obviously). The overkill on the Queen change (with regard to the Hellion contain anyway) doesn't come from reach, but rather area control. This is the effect that makes Marines good in larger numbers and good picking up workers and whatnot even though they're slow and don't deal as much damage as a zealot or anything. Things with reach or a fast move speed control territory by their mere presence. When this area is big (and prone to overlap, such as on chokes), bad things happen and stuff dies alarmingly quickly. In old patch that area control would be provided by a spine crawler inching forward slowly. Little risk to either side, but a very effective speedbump. Now? Queens are more mobile and frankly just control much more area (and make creep). This is the scary thing about it. They're now pretty much Roaches that shoot air, don't cost larva and can't be mass-manufactured... At least they ought to sanitize early ZvZ, can't find much else good about them myself. FWIW, I play bug things (like T as well, but bugs just work more naturally) and think they're in a better spot than Terran - were before the patch too. Ovie speed is nice, rest of patch is madness. The area control graphic thing also helps to show just what kinds of dynamics were at work with the EMP nerf too. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/7Zbz3.png) Posting the pic here again because people are visual thinkers. | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On March 10 2013 04:35 Coffee Zombie wrote: Posting the pic here again because people are visual thinkers. You know, even MS Paint has a Fill tool. | ||
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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robopork
United States511 Posts
On March 10 2013 02:45 forsooth wrote: After the queen buff, the majority of TvZ became nr10 into 15 minute brood lord/infestor into Zerg wins almost every time. It doesn't get any more predictable than that. I could not possibly disagree with you any more strongly that the best of TvZ has been in this insanely dull era of passive, defensive play. Here's your good matchup: + Show Spoiler + I'm not sure that 2013 gsl as a sample is really telling us anything. I thought last night's match was outstanding for a finals. It was dramatic, creative, and only during the first game was I disappointed that I was watching a zvz. Buuut I am a protoss player, and here's to seeing more protoss success in the gsl, eh? | ||
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Reborn8u
United States1761 Posts
If you look at the nerfs protoss has had in WOL (after beta), many of them are severe. Forge, gateway, warp, even pylons, storm, blink, void rays, all got heavy nerfs. All we heard from the community (even protoss players) was "it's fine." Obviously protoss has had some nice buffs as well. But Zerg nor Terran has had their core units, and buildings nerfed the way protoss has. These nerfs had countless trickle down effects. The goal of most of these nerfs was to weaken protoss rushes, but they weakened protoss ALL GAME, and weakened protoss's ability to defend rushes. Which is why I feel protoss is bad against zerg in the late game, and almost forced to all in before hive. But even those allin's are a coin flip. Protoss is so nonthreatening in the early game, zerg is able to max before protoss with more cost effective units, better mobility and vision all game, while being ahead on bases and building up a bank. If you ask zerg players about it, they actually believe it's acceptable balance wise. It is what happens when you nerf a races core production, buildings, units, and it is what happens when it's perfectly okay to be negative towards protoss but not zerg. It is what happens when zergs macro mechanic (the queen) is strong enough to deny almost any form of early protoss harass or pressure. All in, or don't bother, because even though zerg has made no investment into scouting or defense, they know exactly what you have (while you are blind) and they can produce an army superior to yours before you can cross the map. Think about the buffs protoss received, they were reluctantly put in only after months of protoss being bashed in broken matchups. 1/1/1, mass muta, protoss got smashed by these for a long time. The sad thing is, they are still insanely strong even after protoss was buffed to specifically address them. I mean think about it, they had to give protoss an early game hero unit (the momma core) just to keep protoss on equal footing in HOTS. That in itself is very telling. Overall, I feel anyone that points out or posts analysis of terran or zerg being too strong, or of protoss being to weak, can expect to be bashed, and marginalized. It has been perfectly acceptable for zerg players to whine about zerg being to weak, even while zerg is winning lots of major events. But even when protoss has graph after graph, tons of stats, consistently showing protoss is the weakest race. When late game ZvP is broken in favor of Zerg, it is still more acceptable for a zerg to complain about sentry immortal all ins, than a protoss to complain about broodlord infestor, or mass muta. Its blatantly obvious that protoss was the worst race of WOL, but if you look through balance discussions over the last years, you'll see protoss players getting bashed and marginalized for making their arguments backed with numbers, while you have terrans and zergs complaining nonstop and actually having lots of support from pro's, while the numbers directly oppose their conclusions. It's fine for zergs to say "you need to experiment more" and such when protoss can't find an answer to zerg. Players like Naniwa stated that "I know what the zerg is going to do before the game starts, and I just can't stop it" (referring to the fast 3 base into hive play.) He got bashed for saying it. But the whole year of 2011 when zergs where going roach hydra corrupter against protoss, and zerg players refused to innovate, where was the criticism they deserved? Why is there such a strong bias against protoss? I honestly feel like the bias against protoss in the community has actually influenced a lot of the balance decisions blizzard made. The stigma of protoss OP, and zerg UP, that existed in WOL BETA, persisted throughout the history of WOL, even though it was the opposite of the truth. You may think I'm just an idiot at this point, but I want you to think about some things in reverse. We've seen warp gates, zealot build time, pylon radius, forge build time, amulet removed, void rays nerfed, without protoss players making much of a fuss about it. Now imagine if some one suggested nerfing larva inject, ling build time, creep spread, evolution chamber, remove pathogen glands, reducing muta dmg. Zergs would go absolutely ape shit on the forums if you suggested any of these. In fact creep spread nerf was suggested by blizzard, then retracted, because zerg players went ape shit on the forums. I'm not sure why the community became so slanted in favor of zerg and anti protoss. But it has been clear and obvious to me for almost the entirety of WOL that this is the case. I really don't post much in balance discussions anymore, and haven't in a long time because of how unfair and biased things are in this regard. It's okay to call protoss the "easy race", "noob race" ect. Most people actually believe this, and it is because they have not experienced how incredibly unforgiving protoss is, 1 mistake GG, even after you opponent has made several blunders. Both terran and zerg can macro purely with hot keys, imagine having to move your screen, press a key then click, every time you make a unit. You have to crono different buildings constantly all game. I would actually be easy to argue protoss has the toughest mechanics, based just on these two things. Also, keep in mind, these things don't give you an advantage, doing them is necessary just to be on equal footing. Queens give you a lot of advantages just for having them, creep spread gives you speed bonus and map vision just for doing it. If you ask me protoss has the most demanding mechanics, with the least added benefits. | ||
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Scrubwave
Poland1786 Posts
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iky43210
United States2099 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43475 Posts
On March 10 2013 02:42 BernabusStarcraft2 wrote: Pretty much everything points out that Protoss was the worst race in WOL. By a fair amount. Yup. We came, we saw, we got knocked out. Hopeful for HotS though, although I'm not sure yet if it's optimism or just naivety. | ||
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States43475 Posts
On March 10 2013 03:01 Andr3 wrote: Protoss didn't win a major tournament for like ~2years in BW. Nobody whined about balance. In SC2 a race dominates for 4-5 months and it all goes bad. The problem was that in WoL, the first half was dominated by Terran and the second half was dominated by Zerg. That doesn't leave very many halves left for Protoss to dominate now, does it? And that was over three years, not 4 months. But HotS should be good, as it seems that Protoss's skill ceiling will be raised, with new harassment options and new, viable tech and harassment paths. | ||
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