EPTRacial Balance in GSL (2010-2013 WoL) - Page 5
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Daswollvieh
5553 Posts
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
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Nick_54
United States2230 Posts
On March 09 2013 23:40 xuanzue wrote: 24 of 30 month with terran domination I see them dominating at 4 points on the graph. Do you have a comprehension problem or just being a dick ? | ||
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Zrana
United Kingdom698 Posts
On March 10 2013 01:17 n0ise wrote: How am I exaggerating? Yes, hellions are still good, queens are better. They give too much, I don't even know why we're talking about it. Give Macro OR give Defense OR give Map Presence OR give Creep, not all. Make a viking? How about if I have free scouting of your choke and geysers until you hit Lair timing? That cool? Terran scouting since beta is "try to see the X timing, see how many Y he makes and deduce something". Zerg scouting is an Overlord on top of Cloud Kingdom choke, and another on the side of the main. Gimme a break. As a guy above posted, this discussion is pointless, yes. I think you're ignoring asymmetrical balance. Queens do a lot of roles but this doesn't necessarily translate into zerg being overpowered (note im not saying zerg wasnt op in late wol but arguing vs queen range being the reason for it). 1. Queens do not give map presence 2. Creep being on queens is a non-issue as spreading creep a different way would still have the same result. Also the choice between inject and creep tumour and transfuse arguably weakens the queen before you have many out 3. Queens are zerg's only mobile anti-air until hydras (lol) or spire. Zerg really needs the queen to be competitve. 4. The queen range change is great for ZvZ and ZvP. The fact that terran needed more early game harrass options has been addressed in HotS. 5. Before the queen range and overlord speed buffs the matchups were balanced only because often zergs just lost to a bunch of hellions getting a lucky shot or being unable to scout the opponent's tech at all and dying to some kind of timing. This is not good design, not fun to play or watch. You can still hide tech from zergs or mislead their scouting info, it just requires more thought. Finally i think the problems with WoL balance stemmed partially from the zerg macro mechanic which meant that economic losses or lack of losses in the early game quickly steamrolled in one way or the other for zerg. In hindsight if i could redesign that patch i would keep the queen range and overlord speed in but reduce the strength of larva inject. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On March 09 2013 23:40 xuanzue wrote: 24 of 30 month with terran domination With 10 points out of 17 with either protoss or zerg having higher winrate than terran, let me question your maths =D | ||
Steelo_Rivers
United States1968 Posts
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Drowsy
United States4876 Posts
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nojok
France15845 Posts
On March 10 2013 01:39 Zrana wrote: I think you're ignoring asymmetrical balance. Queens do a lot of roles but this doesn't necessarily translate into zerg being overpowered (note im not saying zerg wasnt op in late wol but arguing vs queen range being the reason for it). 1. Queens do not give map presence 2. Creep being on queens is a non-issue as spreading creep a different way would still have the same result. Also the choice between inject and creep tumour and transfuse arguably weakens the queen before you have many out 3. Queens are zerg's only mobile anti-air until hydras (lol) or spire. Zerg really needs the queen to be competitve. 4. The queen range change is great for ZvZ and ZvP. The fact that terran needed more early game harrass options has been addressed in HotS. 5. Before the queen range and overlord speed buffs the matchups were balanced only because often zergs just lost to a bunch of hellions getting a lucky shot or being unable to scout the opponent's tech at all and dying to some kind of timing. This is not good design, not fun to play or watch. You can still hide tech from zergs or mislead their scouting info, it just requires more thought. Finally i think the problems with WoL balance stemmed partially from the zerg macro mechanic which meant that economic losses or lack of losses in the early game quickly steamrolled in one way or the other for zerg. In hindsight if i could redesign that patch i would keep the queen range and overlord speed in but reduce the strength of larva inject. Your point 5, I totally disagree with you, prequeen buff TvZ remains by miles my favorite WoL mu. It was all about low eco game with fights during all the game. | ||
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Champi
1422 Posts
thanks for the entertaining read. keep up the good work! kinda makes me happy in a weird way to see how much my race actually did struggle statistically, its never a good thing for your race to be the weakest, but when its also the race that is the most easily called OP or absurd because of the way its designed, then its nice to see that all the outrage is simply biased opinion, and not statistical fact. | ||
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kariido
Saudi Arabia179 Posts
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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HeyImFinn
United States250 Posts
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
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forsooth
United States3648 Posts
Numbers prove otherwise. For several months in 2012 prior to the queen patch, the matchup was very even both internationally and in Korea, with Zergs actually holding a small edge in win rates in Korea. The patch changed what had become a well balanced, highly entertaining matchup into an extremely predictable, poorly balanced mess. | ||
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Emzeeshady
Canada4203 Posts
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Zrana
United Kingdom698 Posts
On March 10 2013 02:21 forsooth wrote: Numbers prove otherwise. For several months in 2012 prior to the queen patch, the matchup was very even both internationally and in Korea, with Zergs actually holding a small edge in win rates in Korea. The patch changed what had become a well balanced, highly entertaining matchup into an extremely predictable, poorly balanced mess. Yeah nothing like the days of tank pushes under the natural cliff of TDA, or bad terrans beating zergs like Leenock by walking a few hellions into the incredibly open natural of Dual Sight. Balanced and highly entertaining. For Terrans. | ||
Pandemona
Charlie Sheens House51484 Posts
Seems about right! Thanks for gathering the data | ||
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Tuczniak
1561 Posts
Protoss had just one good time. Terran didn't suffer from constants nerfs. | ||
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Noocta
France12578 Posts
Pre Queen buff, 50/50 winrate Post queen buff and since then 37/63 | ||
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