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On March 09 2013 22:08 archonOOid wrote:
As it is a balance thread it would be nice to see the win rate vs time and the current patch (which would fit on the same axis). I hope that hots will have less win rate swings compared to wings.
I did it for some of the more recent patches (ignoring 1.5.3)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/QbmJYdk.png)
yellow = Observer build time buff, queen buff + overlord buff (1.4.3 balace update, may 2012)
pink = mule nerf and snipe nerf (1.4.3, feb 2012)
black = Protoss upgrade buff and EMP nerf (1.4.2, nov 2011)
white = Unit vision up ramps reduced by 1, immortal range buff, mothership buff, blink nerf, warp prism shield 40->100. Rax build time 65 from 60, blue flame bonus damage 5 down from 10, raven seeker missle buff. NP 7 range from 9, overseer cost buff, contaminate nerf (125 energy up from 75), ulta buff (55 build time down from 70) (1.4.0, sept 2011)
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Nice article. So zerg has been OP for many months now, as everyone knows. Hope that does not continue in Hots.
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On March 09 2013 22:38 nomyx wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 22:08 archonOOid wrote:
As it is a balance thread it would be nice to see the win rate vs time and the current patch (which would fit on the same axis). I hope that hots will have less win rate swings compared to wings. I did it for some of the more recent patches (ignoring 1.5.3) yellow = Observer build time buff, queen buff + overlord buff (1.4.3 balace update, may 2012) pink = mule nerf and snipe nerf (1.4.3, feb 2012) black = Protoss upgrade buff and EMP nerf (1.4.2, nov 2011) white = Unit vision up ramps reduced by 1, immortal range buff, mothership buff, blink nerf, warp prism shield 40->100. Rax build time 65 from 60, blue flame bonus damage 5 down from 10, raven seeker missle buff. NP 7 range from 9, overseer cost buff, contaminate nerf (125 energy up from 75), ulta buff (55 build time down from 70) (1.4.0, sept 2011)
The unit vision on ramps was likely the larges thing that helped protoss out. That and better maps that didn't have the ramp to your main hanging out there for anyone to run up. And the immortal range buff, god how that helped out that unit.
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unbelievable how well the game was looking at the 'yellow' mark
I can dig a billion posts from that time saying that the patch is unnecessary and makes no sense, but yeah, whatever, maybe we can randomly get a good balance in hots.
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On March 09 2013 22:47 n0ise wrote:
unbelievable how well the game was looking at the 'yellow' mark
I can dig a billion posts from that time saying that the patch is unnecessary and makes no sense, but yeah, whatever, maybe we can randomly get a good balance in hots.
I often wonder if the queen buff really changed anything or zergs should just have been building 6 queens all along. The range was huge, but they are still brick walls of hitpoints and the extra creep is what really gave everyone a hard time.
But HotS looks way better. Way more back an forth and more abilities to stabilize after taking some damage.
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On March 09 2013 22:47 n0ise wrote:
unbelievable how well the game was looking at the 'yellow' mark
I can dig a billion posts from that time saying that the patch is unnecessary and makes no sense, but yeah, whatever, maybe we can randomly get a good balance in hots.
The game was balanced because occasionally Zerg would lose all their drones to hellions. The rest of the time zerg had an advantage when they didn't lose too much, that's just a silly way to balance a game. The queen and overlord buffs were 100% needed. Any other balance issues needed their own patch (and eventually imo the infestor nerfs did just that).
Regarding protoss, in WoL it seems they lacked a good way to turn player skill into results. If you look at terran, they have a great array of multitasking and apm-intensive tasks which can separate the great players from the good players. Protoss really didn't encourage splitting up the army or much in the way of harrass, and generally we saw protoss winning if their build was unscouted and losing when it was scouted and properly prepared for.
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It is interesting to see the near mirror of Zerg and Protoss in that graph, when one is high, the other is low and so on. I was really unhappy with WoL after that final balance patch and from the looks of that graph it seemed to be near decent at the time up until the patch hit, and after that Zerg became a powerhouse.
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I have a feeling StartaleQ was responsible for a lot of the peak there around S2 for protoss.. Parting, Naniwa and Squirtle all dominating terrans and getting far in the bracket, with Parting and Squirtle not even dropping maps in most series.
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I love how Z and P seem to be mirroring each other almost perfectly, while Terran never ceases to give less than half a fuck.
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On March 09 2013 23:02 Zrana wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 22:47 n0ise wrote:
unbelievable how well the game was looking at the 'yellow' mark
I can dig a billion posts from that time saying that the patch is unnecessary and makes no sense, but yeah, whatever, maybe we can randomly get a good balance in hots. The game was balanced because occasionally Zerg would lose all their drones to hellions. The rest of the time zerg had an advantage when they didn't lose too much, that's just a silly way to balance a game. The queen and overlord buffs were 100% needed. Any other balance issues needed their own patch (and eventually imo the infestor nerfs did just that). Regarding protoss, in WoL it seems they lacked a good way to turn player skill into results. If you look at terran, they have a great array of multitasking and apm-intensive tasks which can separate the great players from the good players. Protoss really didn't encourage splitting up the army or much in the way of harrass, and generally we saw protoss winning if their build was unscouted and losing when it was scouted and properly prepared for.
You feel you should be able to defend anything by default, the rest of the world feels you should actively do something to defend it. Every TvP FE vs 1Base is a fucking slaughterfest down to the last SCV/zealot in which the person who micros and reacts better wins. As a guy above me said, Queens already gave so much, the patch was just taking it way too far.
Are we seriously starting to discuss that queens were way too good, and that between overlord's speed and overlord spots on most maps, zerg had perfect scouting at every stage? Sure, you feel it's normal and needed, why wouldn't you.
Infestors had nothing to do with imbalance unless you can't split your units and anticipate the fungals, or if your Blizzard's balance team. It's like making mules mine 10 times more then nerfing marines to balance the game. 100% logic.
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24 of 30 month with terran domination
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Game looked pretty balanced before Queen buff. Makes you wonder why that was implemented. What did Blizzard see in the numbers that led them to the conclusion it was needed.
Terran dominated for a long time, but it wasn't all due to balance. Terran had a stronger tradition of champions from BroodWar, a lot of the current top Koreans grew up watching these guys, so it was natural that a greater share of talented Koreans choosing to play SC2 would choose Terran. And Terran was IMBA for a while as well.
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On March 09 2013 23:42 mlspmatt wrote:
Game looked pretty balanced before Queen buff. Makes you wonder why that was implemented. What did Blizzard see in the numbers that led them to the conclusion it was needed.
Terran dominated for a long time, but it wasn't all due to balance. Terran had a stronger tradition of champions from BroodWar, a lot of the current top Koreans grew up watching these guys, so it was natural that a greater share of talented Koreans choosing to play SC2 would choose Terran. And Terran was IMBA for a while as well.
Are we seriously back to the "Terran has better players" nonsense again?
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On March 09 2013 23:35 n0ise wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 23:02 Zrana wrote:On March 09 2013 22:47 n0ise wrote:
unbelievable how well the game was looking at the 'yellow' mark
I can dig a billion posts from that time saying that the patch is unnecessary and makes no sense, but yeah, whatever, maybe we can randomly get a good balance in hots. The game was balanced because occasionally Zerg would lose all their drones to hellions. The rest of the time zerg had an advantage when they didn't lose too much, that's just a silly way to balance a game. The queen and overlord buffs were 100% needed. Any other balance issues needed their own patch (and eventually imo the infestor nerfs did just that). Regarding protoss, in WoL it seems they lacked a good way to turn player skill into results. If you look at terran, they have a great array of multitasking and apm-intensive tasks which can separate the great players from the good players. Protoss really didn't encourage splitting up the army or much in the way of harrass, and generally we saw protoss winning if their build was unscouted and losing when it was scouted and properly prepared for. You feel you should be able to defend anything by default, the rest of the world feels you should actively do something to defend it. Every TvP FE vs 1Base is a fucking slaughterfest down to the last SCV/zealot in which the person who micros and reacts better wins. As a guy above me said, Queens already gave so much, the patch was just taking it way too far. Are we seriously starting to discuss that queens were way too good, and that between overlord's speed and overlord spots on most maps, zerg had perfect scouting at every stage? Sure, you feel it's normal and needed, why wouldn't you. Infestors had nothing to do with imbalance unless you can't split your units and anticipate the fungals, or if your Blizzard's balance team. It's like making mules mine 10 times more then nerfing marines to balance the game. 100% logic.
Now you're just exaggerating.
Even today hellions are effective, and zerg always has to react with lings, roaches or extra queens. Even ST_Life, who is by far the best zerg player we've ever seen still loses drones and lings.
Free scouting at all stages of the game? Maybe learn where zerg parks their overlords and the times they want to scout and get some marines ready? Or get a single viking?
As to your comments about the infestor, i was referring to the usage of fungals and ITs in late-game scenarios (i.e. killing vikings for a broodlord-based army).
Anyway this discussion is pointless with HotS a few days away.
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On March 09 2013 23:02 Zrana wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 22:47 n0ise wrote:
unbelievable how well the game was looking at the 'yellow' mark
I can dig a billion posts from that time saying that the patch is unnecessary and makes no sense, but yeah, whatever, maybe we can randomly get a good balance in hots. The game was balanced because occasionally Zerg would lose all their drones to hellions. The rest of the time zerg had an advantage when they didn't lose too much, that's just a silly way to balance a game. The queen and overlord buffs were 100% needed. Any other balance issues needed their own patch (and eventually imo the infestor nerfs did just that).Regarding protoss, in WoL it seems they lacked a good way to turn player skill into results. If you look at terran, they have a great array of multitasking and apm-intensive tasks which can separate the great players from the good players. Protoss really didn't encourage splitting up the army or much in the way of harrass, and generally we saw protoss winning if their build was unscouted and losing when it was scouted and properly prepared for.
looooooooooooooooool
User was warned for this post
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On March 10 2013 00:10 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 23:42 mlspmatt wrote:
Game looked pretty balanced before Queen buff. Makes you wonder why that was implemented. What did Blizzard see in the numbers that led them to the conclusion it was needed.
Terran dominated for a long time, but it wasn't all due to balance. Terran had a stronger tradition of champions from BroodWar, a lot of the current top Koreans grew up watching these guys, so it was natural that a greater share of talented Koreans choosing to play SC2 would choose Terran. And Terran was IMBA for a while as well. Are we seriously back to the "Terran has better players" nonsense again?
Well, Protoss and Zerg dominate in Europe. I assumed it was because they have better Protoss and Zergs. But I guess your argument is that Terran is underpowered?
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So this is proof we protoss are OP right 
But in all honesty good report, similar to what my thoughts have been for awhile,thanks for taking the time to do this
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On March 10 2013 00:02 monkybone wrote:ZvT was really bad before the queen buff actually. 45% is not okay. But they obviously overdid it. 57% and climbing. Actually, in the end it was around 65% in 2013. That's what the GSL stats says. Also, funny how the white line shows a HUGE improvement in protoss results. Was it the immortal change for Terran all ins?
It wasn't 45%, more like 47% percent. You are not going to get much better than that. Hell, there was a time showing a 39% winrate and people still posted l2p to terrans.
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On March 10 2013 00:19 Zrana wrote:Show nested quote +On March 09 2013 23:35 n0ise wrote:On March 09 2013 23:02 Zrana wrote:On March 09 2013 22:47 n0ise wrote:
unbelievable how well the game was looking at the 'yellow' mark
I can dig a billion posts from that time saying that the patch is unnecessary and makes no sense, but yeah, whatever, maybe we can randomly get a good balance in hots. The game was balanced because occasionally Zerg would lose all their drones to hellions. The rest of the time zerg had an advantage when they didn't lose too much, that's just a silly way to balance a game. The queen and overlord buffs were 100% needed. Any other balance issues needed their own patch (and eventually imo the infestor nerfs did just that). Regarding protoss, in WoL it seems they lacked a good way to turn player skill into results. If you look at terran, they have a great array of multitasking and apm-intensive tasks which can separate the great players from the good players. Protoss really didn't encourage splitting up the army or much in the way of harrass, and generally we saw protoss winning if their build was unscouted and losing when it was scouted and properly prepared for. You feel you should be able to defend anything by default, the rest of the world feels you should actively do something to defend it. Every TvP FE vs 1Base is a fucking slaughterfest down to the last SCV/zealot in which the person who micros and reacts better wins. As a guy above me said, Queens already gave so much, the patch was just taking it way too far. Are we seriously starting to discuss that queens were way too good, and that between overlord's speed and overlord spots on most maps, zerg had perfect scouting at every stage? Sure, you feel it's normal and needed, why wouldn't you. Infestors had nothing to do with imbalance unless you can't split your units and anticipate the fungals, or if your Blizzard's balance team. It's like making mules mine 10 times more then nerfing marines to balance the game. 100% logic. Now you're just exaggerating. Even today hellions are effective, and zerg always has to react with lings, roaches or extra queens. Even ST_Life, who is by far the best zerg player we've ever seen still loses drones and lings. Free scouting at all stages of the game? Maybe learn where zerg parks their overlords and the times they want to scout and get some marines ready? Or get a single viking? As to your comments about the infestor, i was referring to the usage of fungals and ITs in late-game scenarios (i.e. killing vikings for a broodlord-based army). Anyway this discussion is pointless with HotS a few days away.
How am I exaggerating? Yes, hellions are still good, queens are better. They give too much, I don't even know why we're talking about it. Give Macro OR give Defense OR give Map Presence OR give Creep, not all.
Make a viking? How about if I have free scouting of your choke and geysers until you hit Lair timing? That cool? Terran scouting since beta is "try to see the X timing, see how many Y he makes and deduce something". Zerg scouting is an Overlord on top of Cloud Kingdom choke, and another on the side of the main.
Gimme a break. As a guy above posted, this discussion is pointless, yes.
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EPT
