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On February 04 2013 22:18 figq wrote:
I just have a hard time overcoming the general disgust with Riot's business and "creative" practices, that's all. Even the official game trailer and the graphics of LoL scream "cheap" and "walmarty" to me, sorry T_T. Otherwise, the same argument (about mechanics) can be made for Dota 2, and it's a valid argument. In fact, one could apply this argument when comparing SC2 and BW too - SC2 is certainly less mechanically demanding than BW. The football-hockey comparison was great, I'd add another one. Compare a bodybuilder and a long-distance runner. One is proud with muscles, and that's fine, but those muscles don't mean he can be competitive in a long-distance run. It's just different qualities that need to be developed.
Nobody is telling you to play the game. With that in mind, any bashing is simply unnecessary.
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On February 04 2013 23:04 masterbreti wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 22:42 Rorra wrote:On February 04 2013 22:04 masterbreti wrote:
We should take this approach when dealing in Esports more. if you can't support all esports, then keep to your own and don't try to bring others down If only Riot took this approach... I'm not quite sure what you mean. Riot hasn't brought any other esports down, in fact they are raising the game with their production quality and giving other esports a standard to look to.
It's a comment regarding the well-established buying of tournament exclusivity and bartering support in turn for keeping others out. Surely everyone knows about this?
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On February 04 2013 23:04 masterbreti wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 22:42 Rorra wrote:On February 04 2013 22:04 masterbreti wrote:
We should take this approach when dealing in Esports more. if you can't support all esports, then keep to your own and don't try to bring others down If only Riot took this approach... I'm not quite sure what you mean. Riot hasn't brought any other esports down, in fact they are raising the game with their production quality and giving other esports a standard to look to. I personally feel that sc2 and LoL have a very similar skillcap. Just in different areas. sc2 is more about speed, whereas LoL is more knowledge. someone can get very far in sc2 with just pure macro, in league you need to understand the game very well to do well. Doa provided a good example of what a top laner needs to pay attention to when in the early game, but there is much more that he didn't touch on (I guess he forgot, but he pointed out the main things). You have to also remember LoL is a team game and so you need to understand the strenghs and weakness' of your teammates just as much, if not more than your opponents. That is something sc2 players don't even have to consider. since it is a 1v1 game, you don't have to worry about anyone else. I do feel your hate of Riot is rather unjust and I think is strife with bias, if you could point out why you don't like Riot, maybe someone could help dispell your disagreements.
I think he is referring to the fact that there were rumors (??) that Riot was trying to strong arm teams and tournaments to be exclusively LoL in terms of MOBAs.
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On February 04 2013 23:35 Martijn wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 23:04 masterbreti wrote:On February 04 2013 22:42 Rorra wrote:On February 04 2013 22:04 masterbreti wrote:
We should take this approach when dealing in Esports more. if you can't support all esports, then keep to your own and don't try to bring others down If only Riot took this approach... I'm not quite sure what you mean. Riot hasn't brought any other esports down, in fact they are raising the game with their production quality and giving other esports a standard to look to. It's a comment regarding the well-established buying of tournament exclusivity and bartering support in turn for keeping others out. Surely everyone knows about this?
I've not heard about this. Mostly it has been rumored because one or two people have said that was the reason IEM never does dota2 or such. At least that is what I have come to understand anyways.
Riot has never barred any esports from entering the scene, unless they are direct competiters. and even then I've never really seen it happen, Dreamhack hosted all 3 during DH winter. and the team thing was mostly a rumor that Riot directly stated was wrong, or misunderstood.
IEM, IPL, Dreamhack, OGN all have multiple esports running under their brand and afaik riot has never tried to stop them. I do understand if it is in regards to hon or dota 2, because they are direct competition. I don't think Blizzard would be too keen on having dreamhack run another rts title alongside sc2. Actually Blizzard has gone out of their own way to prevent their own games being broadcasted in favour of sc2 (BW anyone?)
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On February 04 2013 23:35 OutlaW- wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 22:18 figq wrote:
I just have a hard time overcoming the general disgust with Riot's business and "creative" practices, that's all. Even the official game trailer and the graphics of LoL scream "cheap" and "walmarty" to me, sorry T_T. Otherwise, the same argument (about mechanics) can be made for Dota 2, and it's a valid argument. In fact, one could apply this argument when comparing SC2 and BW too - SC2 is certainly less mechanically demanding than BW. The football-hockey comparison was great, I'd add another one. Compare a bodybuilder and a long-distance runner. One is proud with muscles, and that's fine, but those muscles don't mean he can be competitive in a long-distance run. It's just different qualities that need to be developed. Nobody is telling you to play the game. With that in mind, any bashing is simply unnecessary. We are discussing why people compare the game with Walmart. There might be some reason behind it, you know, not just random bashing, or fear of brand competition.
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I can agree with your statement that from a spectator point of view, complexity of a game doesn't mean its any less or more watchable as a sport. However, you really are stretching the arguments when you try to draw false equivalencies about the skill ceiling and complexity between LoL and SC2. I mean, you can even go between other MOBAs and clearly see that LoL is just not a complex game in comparison to Dota2... let alone starcraft. Mechanical skills are definitely the main factor in this, but not nearly the only thing. Everything you mention in that list besides last hitting/harassing, those decisions are made over the course of a game or section of the game( early, mid, late). Starcraft is much much deeper than that..
The bottom line is its 5 v 5 on the same map everytime, where no changes can be made to it. Every hero has a set amount of abilities that you learn and how they interact against the other champions. That is the main aspect to the game. The complexity comes in from map awareness and setting up a team fight or playing for map dominance to gain advantages. That is complex in its own way... but those things are just a tiny aspect of what is going on in a sc2 game and only 1 person is doing this with multiple units with multiple abilities WHILE maintaining macro mechanics and watching for any other attacks that can possibly happen around the map. Item builds are not the same as a build order in sc2, its on such a different level, and the mind games strategy involved is just far deeper than getting a zhonyas versus some other AP item at a certain point in the game.
There's nothing wrong per say with LoL not having this complexity/skill ceiling, in fact this has made it incredibly popular. Most people watching esports don't have a deep understanding of the games they play or pick up on little amazing things that players do at that level, so it doesn't matter that LoL lacks a lot of this depth. Free to play game with accessibility while allowing for high level teamwork and exciting battles with lots of special abilities makes it interesting to watch for the majority. However, I'd say that the games longevity is questionable. RIOT has done an amazing job with the constant updating, subtle changes to evolve the metagame, and tireless promotion of the game as an ESPORT. But I would say that their effort and the free to play aspect has had far more an impact on its current success than the game itself. The pro players are generally younger, less professional in demeanor, more accessible in terms of personality etc, which gives them more accessibility to their fanbase. This has slowly changed with the Koreans coming in with their professional teams and infastructure and now teams like EG getting involved so hopefully it continues to grow in that respect.
SC2 is never going to have that mass appeal that a less complex, more accessible game like LoL would have. I think most of the hate is stemming from frustration that Blizzard has massively dropped the ball, and RIOT has run with it. We saw ourselves as the leader of Esports, the top dog, and that has basically evaporated in like a year.
I guess this became a little ranty and OT so I apologize, but I would say to wrap it up that you are 100% correct that professionals in the industry should not be bashing other games, or perpetuating the behavior of the fans. I agree that complexity of a game doesn't equal quality or being spectator friendly. But you should not try to solve this by creating false equivalencies on the complexity of sc2 vs LoL. I definitely agree that the sc2 fanbase doesn't appreciate the depth that LoL does have or the things the players are doing, but they probably also don't get the things that do makes sc2 actually deeper and more complex outside of "macroing".
On a sidenote, I can't wait to hear you cast Professional SC2 again, I miss Doa/Wolf GSL 
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On February 04 2013 23:04 masterbreti wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 22:42 Rorra wrote:On February 04 2013 22:04 masterbreti wrote:
We should take this approach when dealing in Esports more. if you can't support all esports, then keep to your own and don't try to bring others down If only Riot took this approach... I'm not quite sure what you mean. Riot hasn't brought any other esports down, Sigh, lets see. If I could search all the misinformed attacks toward dota on the LoL forums that riot devs particularly pendragon has participated in without it taking hours maybe I would. But that's fine If you don't believe me on that account since that's pretty internal to the LoL community after all.
But there's other examples, the two semi recent ones that come to mind are the time that riot tried to get multi-gaming teams to drop their other "moba"(as defined by riot) teams if they wanted to compete in riot tournaments. - They never actually went through with it as it was leaked + the majority of teams wouldn't have it.
And the other one was when riot tried to get dreamhack to not have HoN or dota2 competitions or they wouldn't attend(this was awhile ago and i cant remember the details tbh, just remember greycarn & hellspawn were talking about it)
and thats only one tournament, they may be rumors but they're certainly far to widespread to not contain some truthin fact they are raising the game with their production quality and giving other esports a standard to look to.
I'm not sure what you mean by the production quality, this is a game that lacked basic e-sports features such as replays and even a spectator client for an incredibly long time, not only this but I'm pretty sure they even released a patch at one point that prevented the 3rd party program that pros were using from actually working. that the resent development of all the recent features in the game, such as being able to watch high lvl ladder games etc were mostly copied from other games, nothing wrong with that but I'd say riot was late to the party rather than early.
So I can only assume you're speaking of tournaments? I suppose that's something far to subjective to try and argue with, If you like riots tournaments that's great, though I'm sure its easy to keep a standard of quality when you have a hand in or are running every big tournament featuring your gameI personally feel that sc2 and LoL have a very similar skillcap. Just in different areas. sc2 is more about speed, whereas LoL is more knowledge. someone can get very far in sc2 with just pure macro, in league you need to understand the game very well to do well. I disagree but you cant compare them, they're too different. I certainly wouldn't list knowledge as a big part of LoL as the developers consider "burden of knowledge" to be "anti-fun" and try to minimize it as much as possible in the game. LoL has depth in regards to knowledge compared to sc2 sure but not compared to other games in its genre.Doa provided a good example of what a top laner needs to pay attention to when in the early game, but there is much more that he didn't touch on (I guess he forgot, but he pointed out the main things). You have to also remember LoL is a team game and so you need to understand the strenghs and weakness' of your teammates just as much, if not more than your opponents. That is something sc2 players don't even have to consider. since it is a 1v1 game, you don't have to worry about anyone else.
absolutelyI do feel your hate of Riot is rather unjust and I think is strife with bias, if you could point out why you don't like Riot, maybe someone could help dispell your disagreements.
Your right I guess I am biased, as are you. people are subjective they have opinions, shocking really...
It would take to long to list absolutely everything that's made me dislike the company so ill respond to some of what you've said above.
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Its very late/early here so i'm not gonna spend an hour writing a well researched post, because I don't care to, If you care to you can probably find plenty of in depth criticisms of riot & LoL. Take initiative if you care, as of now it seems like nothign i say will really convince you
& no offense but tbh to me you're just another one of 30 million eating riots propaganda shit. If you like how it tastes go for it.
Just know who you're supporting.
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Wilhelm Kempff is a better musician than BB King regardless of whether you like guitar or piano though. And BW is a better game than SC2 regardless which one you like best, I think. Some things you can compare.
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On February 04 2013 23:46 Irre wrote:I can agree with your statement that from a spectator point of view, complexity of a game doesn't mean its any less or more watchable as a sport. However, you really are stretching the arguments when you try to draw false equivalencies about the skill ceiling and complexity between LoL and SC2. I mean, you can even go between other MOBAs and clearly see that LoL is just not a complex game in comparison to Dota2... let alone starcraft. Mechanical skills are definitely the main factor in this, but not nearly the only thing. Everything you mention in that list besides last hitting/harassing, those decisions are made over the course of a game or section of the game( early, mid, late). Starcraft is much much deeper than that.. [...] I guess this became a little ranty and OT so I apologize, but I would say to wrap it up that you are 100% correct that professionals in the industry should not be bashing other games, or perpetuating the behavior of the fans. I agree that complexity of a game doesn't equal quality or being spectator friendly. But you should not try to solve this by creating false equivalencies on the complexity of sc2 vs LoL. I definitely agree that the sc2 fanbase doesn't appreciate the depth that LoL does have or the things the players are doing, but they probably also don't get the things that do makes sc2 actually deeper and more complex outside of "macroing". On a sidenote, I can't wait to hear you cast Professional SC2 again, I miss Doa/Wolf GSL
I agree with you 100 %. And even though I don't support any kind of open game-bashing, especially on something like The Pulse, or the caster-bashing that goes on each time someone gives LoL a shot, I can't help but feel that the whole LoL-Walmart thing is... well... kind of true!
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damn I'm way to tired to be posting here atm, so much ranting and talking shit so ill stop.
I also agree with irre, excellent post sir.
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I think that people should be comparing League and DOTA2 instead of League and Starcraft. Starcraft and League are two different games for two different people. League is a team based game and some people like that more than a 1v1 game, which is fine. I've played DotA for around 8 years now (ever since 2005) and one thing I've learned from it is that it's a lot easier to blame your team mates than to take accountability for your faults, like in SC2.
SC2, if you mess up you know it's your fault. Whether it's a micro problem, scouting problem, macro problem, ect, it's on you to fix it. SC2 and League also has different skill sets needed. As you said DoA, last hitting in league is a very important skill.
But League vs DOTA would be better overall, that is where I would say the wal-mart (League) vs whole foods (DOTA) comparision comes in the most.
If you want to compare SC2 to League, it's best to compare the two tournament scenes instead of the actual game. Tournaments such as MLG, Dreamhack, IEM, ect they PAY blizzard to host SC2 events. Riot's esport scene is fully dependent on Riot itself. If Blizzard decided to stop supporting eSports, tournaments would still exist while if Riot stopped they're whole scene collapses. Riot pays their pros, they pay tournament organizers to have their game, ect.
Starcraft, counter-strike, quake, DotA; those are all natural eSports. Games that the community decided were worthy to have has a competitive game and that the community would put money into.
League of legends (and planetside 2 to a certain extent oddly enough) are Artificial eSports that rely 100% on the company to keep going.
edit: I myself love esports and believe that there should be several eSport titles. RTS (SC2), ARTS (DotA2), FPS (CS/Quake). I support eSports and I love it a lot, but I refuse to support an artificial eSport title such as League of Legends when you have a much better product on the market (DotA / DOTA2).
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On February 05 2013 00:05 nomyx wrote:
I think that people should be comparing League and DOTA2 instead of League and Starcraft. Starcraft and League are two different games for two different people. League is a team based game and some people like that more than a 1v1 game, which is fine. I've played DotA for around 8 years now (ever since 2005) and one thing I've learned from it is that it's a lot easier to blame your team mates than to take accountability for your faults, like in SC2.
SC2, if you mess up you know it's your fault. Whether it's a micro problem, scouting problem, macro problem, ect, it's on you to fix it. SC2 and League also has different skill sets needed. As you said DoA, last hitting in league is a very important skill.
But League vs DOTA would be better overall, that is where I would say the wal-mart (League) vs whole foods (DOTA) comparision comes in the most.
If you want to compare SC2 to League, it's best to compare the two tournament scenes instead of the actual game. Tournaments such as MLG, Dreamhack, IEM, ect they PAY blizzard to host SC2 events. Riot's esport scene is fully dependent on Riot itself. If Blizzard decided to stop supporting eSports, tournaments would still exist while if Riot stopped they're whole scene collapses. Riot pays their pros, they pay tournament organizers to have their game, ect.
Starcraft, counter-strike, quake, DotA; those are all natural eSports. Games that the community decided were worthy to have has a competitive game and that the community would put money into.
League of legends (and planetside 2 to a certain extent oddly enough) are Artificial eSports that rely 100% on the company to keep going.
Although you are right in saying that Riot heavily supports their game (which is good) to argue that if Riot stopped giving money to organizers they wouldn't put League in their competitions and that the scene would die is a bit ridiculous. At the end of the day, League of Legends is arguably the most popular game in the world right now. People play it more than any other eSport and more people tune in to watch it than any other eSport.
If anything Blizzard should be more like Riot and help sustain and foster the growth of the scene. Also, Valve has been more Riot-esque than Blizzard-esque in their support of DOTA2. 1 million dollar prize anyone?
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What a dumb,patronizing and meaningless blog.
If the fans want to hate some other game let them do it,you're not the messiah that's going to bring them together DoA.
The most annoying thing about this whole game vs game thing is you preachers that try to make people hold hands and play nice when people are obviously having a better time flaming each other and please don't come with that "for the good of esports" bullshit.
Stacraft and Dota fans love to hate on LoL because they think it's a noob game and no amount of blogs will change their opinion so just please do your self a favor and stop it.
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I have to disagree with the approach DoA is taking when he's trying to legitimize LoL as an esport. Making a list like that or just generally saying that the level of individual skill required to play a moba is parallel to the skill required to play starcraft is in my opinion bullshit. Mobas are all about teamwork, and that is by far the hardest part about them, knowing how to work as a team of five. Once you get good, you stay good and there's really no point playing pubs cause they won't better your mechanics or map awareness or basic decision making, those things just aren't that hard to be good at (read: not comparable to star2 pros). The only things the pros really need to practice anymore is teamwork and strategy, and I wish those two things were what people would sell when they sell LoL as an esport. In starcraft 2, where there's literally no teamwork, you still need to play a ridiculous amount just to keep up with the individual skill.
edit for clairvoyance: the point I'm trying to make is that people shouldn't say "player X of team Y is just as impressive as this starcraft pro", but instead they could say that the overall skill and effort of team Y is just as impressive as this individual star2 player's is.
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It is only natural for games to rival each other, though you are absolutely right about the fine line that shouldnt be crossed.
Would it be too hard to simply be an "E-Sports-Community" as much as we are SCII-Community?
:D
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Esports media should focus more on creating storylines that transcend individual games. I have zero knowledge of MOBA games, yet I was super hyped to watch Liquid vs EG in Dota 2. I feel like I know Liquid and EG as teams and as such I enjoy their rivalry regardless of it being an unfamiliar game.
The emphasis should be more on teams as a whole, giving them a face that carries over across different platforms.
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SC2 and LoL require different skills, there is some overlap, such as map awareness, apm, mind games, but overall the two need different skills. I've been saying this for a while, but there is no reason to hate on LoL, its a different game. It has a different type of complexity, and though the community as a whole can be argued as less mature than TL's (along with the general SC2 community), that isn't grounds to bash another communities game.
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I'm sure LoL is a great game, and you make a lot of compelling points for it. And the LoL community is welcome to do whatever it is they want to do. Alas I will never be a part of it, and I'm not too concerned.
I've tried to watch LoL on several occasions. Not a single time have I been able to glean any enjoyment from it. It has nothing to do with gameplay, casters, or players. It has to do with the graphics. I find the graphics have this uniformed treatment that make it almost impossible to tell areas importance or interest from parts of the game I shouldn't care about. Every spell seems like the most important and the lack of any sort of texture on game models is, to me, aesthitically very ugly.
The artistic treatment of dota models is much more pleasing and logical to me. It gives the game a better viewability and makes the gameplay more logical. Spells and units have priority. In LoL I don't feel that. That's the part of the game that drives me away from it.
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On February 04 2013 23:42 masterbreti wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2013 23:35 Martijn wrote:On February 04 2013 23:04 masterbreti wrote:On February 04 2013 22:42 Rorra wrote:On February 04 2013 22:04 masterbreti wrote:
We should take this approach when dealing in Esports more. if you can't support all esports, then keep to your own and don't try to bring others down If only Riot took this approach... I'm not quite sure what you mean. Riot hasn't brought any other esports down, in fact they are raising the game with their production quality and giving other esports a standard to look to. It's a comment regarding the well-established buying of tournament exclusivity and bartering support in turn for keeping others out. Surely everyone knows about this? I've not heard about this. Mostly it has been rumored because one or two people have said that was the reason IEM never does dota2 or such. At least that is what I have come to understand anyways. Riot has never barred any esports from entering the scene, unless they are direct competiters. and even then I've never really seen it happen, Dreamhack hosted all 3 during DH winter. and the team thing was mostly a rumor that Riot directly stated was wrong, or misunderstood. IEM, IPL, Dreamhack, OGN all have multiple esports running under their brand and afaik riot has never tried to stop them. I do understand if it is in regards to hon or dota 2, because they are direct competition. I don't think Blizzard would be too keen on having dreamhack run another rts title alongside sc2. Actually Blizzard has gone out of their own way to prevent their own games being broadcasted in favour of sc2 (BW anyone?)
Yeah and that Riot was pushing for teams to not pick up rosters for other moba teams is just a rumor too right? Sigh. It's established, promise.
You know, I don't really want any part of this discussion to begin with. Blog is not going to add anything that hasn't said anything before, this crossgame-grief isn't going anywhere. Hell, it's not like it's new, Unreal Tournament vs Quake, or Counterstrike vs Quake, age old story. Just pretend I didn't say anything.
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I don't know... I guess I just don't see the problem with acting like your game (profession) is better. I've heard professional sports commentators talk about how some sport is better or a player from another sport wouldn't be able to handle something of this sport etc (although not much). As far as communities, that definitely happens in traditional sports! (How many people referred to the Super Bowl as the hand-egg championship?) 
I also don't think we (community or players) should need to support other communities. I don't care about the console games (fighting, sports, fps?) or other pc games (fps, moab, or even other RTS games), just SC2. **I do understand members of a pro team that has multiple competition types supporting each other - the same way you'll see professional athletes attending other events in their city.**
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EPT
